Guild Wars 2

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

phys.7689:

so what you are saying is that if you enjoy your job, it is no longer a job, and has no value? hmm, i know people see things this way, but the fact that people do is what allows business men to profit. but ehh thats life

The key difference is that my high-paying job isn’t a recreational activity. Sure, I do enjoy it a lot, and it hardly feels like work, but there are expectations, obligations, and responsibilities that go with it being a job and not a hobby. I play GW2 for fun, and it has value strictly for that reason. Even if I made no gold from it, I’d still do it, so that I do make gold (which lessens the dollar cost of gem store items) is essentially free compensation. Does that distinction make sense? I hope I’ve helped clarify.

Rising Dusk.2408:

phys.7689:

so what you are saying is that if you enjoy your job, it is no longer a job, and has no value? hmm, i know people see things this way, but the fact that people do is what allows business men to profit. but ehh thats life

The key difference is that my high-paying job isn’t a recreational activity. Sure, I do enjoy it a lot, and it hardly feels like work, but there are expectations, obligations, and responsibilities that go with it being a job and not a hobby. I play GW2 for fun, and it has value strictly for that reason. Even if I made no gold from it, I’d still do it, so that I do make gold (which lessens the dollar cost of gem store items) is essentially free compensation. Does that distinction make sense? I hope I’ve helped clarify.

if by some odd way i could make an infinite engine, and doing so was completely based on me doing some incredibly fun activity. That engine would still have economic value.
If i make car, strictly for my own enjoyment, it still has economic value.

Even if i would do it for free, that doesnt change the value it generates.

phys.7689:

Rising Dusk.2408:

phys.7689:

so what you are saying is that if you enjoy your job, it is no longer a job, and has no value? hmm, i know people see things this way, but the fact that people do is what allows business men to profit. but ehh thats life

The key difference is that my high-paying job isn’t a recreational activity. Sure, I do enjoy it a lot, and it hardly feels like work, but there are expectations, obligations, and responsibilities that go with it being a job and not a hobby. I play GW2 for fun, and it has value strictly for that reason. Even if I made no gold from it, I’d still do it, so that I do make gold (which lessens the dollar cost of gem store items) is essentially free compensation. Does that distinction make sense? I hope I’ve helped clarify.

if by some odd way i could make an infinite engine, and doing so was completely based on me doing some incredibly fun activity. That engine would still have economic value.
If i make car, strictly for my own enjoyment, it still has economic value.

Even if i would do it for free, that doesnt change the value it generates.

It has economic value, because you had to purchase the parts from a manufacturer. So the car was not free.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

the sky isnt blue
a proper understanding of the relationship would be
skys color is blue
oceans color is blue
oceans color is equal to skys color.

but even by your own understanding/relationships

your time is money, anet has figured out how to convert your time to money.
every time you sell your gems, the time money transference machine activates, and anet has turned your ingame time to real hard, usable money. This is not really a new conversion, it was known to exist since people were selling items on the net in EQ and ultima online.

you gold→gem sellers are basically just gold sellers who work for anet, and all the time you spend is money for anet.

anet is the one who has figured out how to monetize your time playing the game, and in doing so they have cemented the time/money relationship.

yes even things you do for free, or dont realize have value, can have value. and in a monetary system that is doing its job, anything of value can be represented by money (though they do not always achieve this)

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Rising Dusk.2408:

phys.7689:

so what you are saying is that if you enjoy your job, it is no longer a job, and has no value? hmm, i know people see things this way, but the fact that people do is what allows business men to profit. but ehh thats life

The key difference is that my high-paying job isn’t a recreational activity. Sure, I do enjoy it a lot, and it hardly feels like work, but there are expectations, obligations, and responsibilities that go with it being a job and not a hobby. I play GW2 for fun, and it has value strictly for that reason. Even if I made no gold from it, I’d still do it, so that I do make gold (which lessens the dollar cost of gem store items) is essentially free compensation. Does that distinction make sense? I hope I’ve helped clarify.

if by some odd way i could make an infinite engine, and doing so was completely based on me doing some incredibly fun activity. That engine would still have economic value.
If i make car, strictly for my own enjoyment, it still has economic value.

Even if i would do it for free, that doesnt change the value it generates.

It has economic value, because you had to purchase the parts from a manufacturer. So the car was not free.

who says i have to purchase anything, i could make the car entirely of parts of other machines people payed me to take off their land. And my own skills with working metal/machining parts, and knowledge of engineering.

Haha, quick someone make a headline: “Free Online Games Exploiting Youth*”.

Ah well, at least I’m getting “somthing”. Other MMOs charged me for working for them and didn’t let me raid alone either.

* just sounds better

Edit: It’s true btw, I’m totally adding value to the City I’m living in and they also only charge for this and that instead of saying thank you and paying me, sigh.

Rouven.7409:

Haha, quick someone make a headline: “Free Online Games Exploiting Youth*”.

Ah well, at least I’m getting “somthing”. Other MMOs charged me for working for them and didn’t let me raid alone either.

* just sounds better

Edit: It’s true btw, I’m totally adding value to the City I’m living in and they also only charge for this and that instead of saying thank you and paying me, sigh.

exploiting is a strong word, its an exchange, sometimes exchanges are mutually beneficial.
whether it is or not probably varies person to person and situation to situation.

but regardless of the word you want to put to it, gold→gems makes anet money. which means activities that allow this to happen have a monetary value.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

You are so far behind , you think you’re ahead. Racing metaphor, to match your Tennis metaphor.

You are entrenched in your opinion. That does not make your opinion true.

When an individual is engaged in an activity, whether that activity is done for fun, or to earn cash, if the fruits of that activity can be exchanged for goods and Services that have a real world value, then whether or not they intended to earn money for that activity is irrelevant.

The fact that they can put X number of hours into Activity A, get compensated for the activity by some virtual currency B, and then exchange the currency for Virtual Item or Service C, that someone else could have obtained by paying $Y dollars USD, means that in the time that the player spent just involvd in an activity, recreational or otherwise,…. had value = to $Y.

Imagine you enjoy painting. And you get some oils, and start doing your paint thing simply out of pure pleasure. You hang the painting on your wall. And a friend comes by, says " WoW I really like that painting…I’ll pay you $10,000 for it." You sell the painting for $10,000. you did not get $10,000 for free. You earned it by painting the painting. That you did not believe at the time you were involved in work, does not matter. That it was done for recreation does not matter.

The ONLY way that the $10,000 you recieved would have been free is if the guy had just GIVEN you $10,000 as a gift.

I can understand that you are entrenched in your position, I can also understand that you are sincere in your beliefs. But You being entrenched and repeating yourself endlessly, does not make you right, and doesn’t turn your opinions to fact.

BTW if A=B and B=C, then A=C. IS a mathematical law. Nothing fallacious about it.

As Phys said, my position may or may not be an adequate representation of If A = B, and B=C, then A=C, but that doesn’t turn a law of mathematics into " fallacy."

The issue is that you are not using it correctly. It’s More Like….

“If the Note emanating from my Guitar = High C, and the note emanating from my voice = High C, then The note emanating from my guitar = the note emanating from my voice.”

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130216123245AA1bCCU

PS: I used Castronova’s paper because Castronova has assigned a GNP to Norrath, which is hard to do if players playing lacks monetary value.

PPS: It’s She, Not He.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

On the other hand if you spent 8 hours in the toilet, and after you left you forgot to flush, and someone fished it out, bronzed it, and polished it, entitled it " you CAN polish a turd!" then sold it to MOMA (Sometimes i think MOMA thinks anything is art…so who knows it could happen) for $10,000 the the 8 hours you spent on the toilet is worth $10,000.

The fact that you did not recieve the $10,000 or that you did not intend for the fruits of your effort… the kitten , to have value, does not mean your kitten and the time that it took to produce it lacks value.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

the sky isnt blue
a proper understanding of the relationship would be
skys color is blue
oceans color is blue
oceans color is equal to skys color.

but even by your own understanding/relationships

your time is money, anet has figured out how to convert your time to money.
every time you sell your gems, the time money transference machine activates, and anet has turned your ingame time to real hard, usable money. This is not really a new conversion, it was known to exist since people were selling items on the net in EQ and ultima online.

you gold->gem sellers are basically just gold sellers who work for anet, and all the time you spend is money for anet.

anet is the one who has figured out how to monetize your time playing the game, and in doing so they have cemented the time/money relationship.

yes even things you do for free, or dont realize have value, can have value. and in a monetary system that is doing its job, anything of value can be represented by money (though they do not always achieve this)

My time is worth money to Anet, because I actually buy Gems again and again. Anet makes no money if a player exchanges in game Gold for Gems.

As for time having monetary value, that can happen in the course of working a paying job. But in the sense of playing GW2 and converting Gold into Gems, that exchange is still free since you didn’t pay for it.

phys.7689:

exploiting is a strong word, its an exchange, sometimes exchanges are mutually beneficial.
whether it is or not probably varies person to person and situation to situation.

but regardless of the word you want to put to it, gold->gems makes anet money. which means activities that allow this to happen have a monetary value.

Of course, strong words are the nature of headlines. I was sure you would understand since you push concepts to the limit.

I bring value by solely being there and interacting with others. Unless I don’t adhere to the rules, at that point I’m not bringing value anymore and —> bam, banned.

It (the conversion) does not make Anet money directly. However by offering the service both ways it does, that is correct.

This however does not phase me as a customer because essentially it does not cost me anything.

Of course I could hypothetically invent a new energy source instead of playing computer games, so the cost of playing GW2 is indeed great, but I am willing to pay the price.

In fact you could also turn this around, you actually cost Anet money. All the time. It’s like the comparison chart we got at the bank many years back – if a client calls he costs us this much, if he walks in and talks to the teller he costs us this much …

You and I, we cost Anet money by the second. Even here on the forum. In exchange we provide a little service, but you can only make up to it by paying them really.

Time technically does have a monetary value if all of your time can be used in a useful manner. Time I spend sleeping has no useful application, but it is still time that must be spent regardless. Time spent at my job is exhausting because of the intricacies of my job, and it’s also salary, so I can’t just work extra hours to make extra cash. I could take another job and get some side dollars that way, but that might not be fun, or something I want to spend my hobby time on. I consider, ultimately, the value of my time to be better spent enjoying GW2 and making gold on the side, which then converts to gems, as opposed to working a side job and then converting those dollars to gems. In this sense, no matter how you view it, gold spent on converting to gems is a compensation, or a gift. It lessens the monetary loss that I could be suffering assuming those dollars were going to GW2 anyway.

I think the problem with this discussion is that people are arguing different things. The exchange itself, converting gems to gold or vice versa, is free. That conversion doesn’t cost me dollars directly. It takes time to earn gold, yes, and time has some measure of value associated with it (note it isn’t necessarily monetary value, but it is value that can be treated as monetary value by an individual), but if you perform an activity for fun (ie. recreational activities) and get paid on the side for it in gold, that gold is essentially a gift. The distinction has to be made at the following level:

• Would you do this activity if it didn’t give you gold?

If you say no, then you are ‘grinding’ content for gold, and thus your gold earned isn’t ‘free’ because it was the point. If you say yes, then you are simply doing what you enjoy and the gold is ‘free’ because it wasn’t the point. There is a saying that “If you love your job, you never work a day in your life” essentially saying that you’d work for free but it also happens to pay the bills, but it is important to temper that with the opposing proverb that “there’s a reason my job pays me what they do” which is demonstrating that while you love your job, it is by no means a recreational activity.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

the sky isnt blue
a proper understanding of the relationship would be
skys color is blue
oceans color is blue
oceans color is equal to skys color.

but even by your own understanding/relationships

your time is money, anet has figured out how to convert your time to money.
every time you sell your gems, the time money transference machine activates, and anet has turned your ingame time to real hard, usable money. This is not really a new conversion, it was known to exist since people were selling items on the net in EQ and ultima online.

you gold->gem sellers are basically just gold sellers who work for anet, and all the time you spend is money for anet.

anet is the one who has figured out how to monetize your time playing the game, and in doing so they have cemented the time/money relationship.

yes even things you do for free, or dont realize have value, can have value. and in a monetary system that is doing its job, anything of value can be represented by money (though they do not always achieve this)

My time is worth money to Anet, because I actually buy Gems again and again. Anet makes no money if a player exchanges in game Gold for Gems.

As for time having monetary value, that can happen in the course of working a paying job. But in the sense of playing GW2 and converting Gold into Gems, that exchange is still free since you didn’t pay for it.

You keep repeating your opinion. I understood it the first time, I do not agree with it. Let’s Just agree to disagree.

I can understand why you won’t. As far as you are concerned this is fact. It is not possible for people to disagree abou facts, people can disagree about the perception of facts.

You believing what you believe , is not fact. it is opinion. The problem is a second level logic error on your part.

I believe your opinion to be opinion, you believe your opinion, to be fact. But believing it to be fact, does not make it fact.

Not having read most of the other posts here I just want to say that I’d rather play for skins. The gem store has so many things to offer:
from pets to finishers, musical instruments, account upgrades, outfits, a load of convenience items and toys.

It’s a real shame we have to pay gems for many new armorsets and weaponskins;
I know BL skins are available on the TP but wouldn’t you rather do something challenging or associated with the theme of the set to aquire it?

The bobblehead laboratory is awesome and I have no problem with stuff like that
or bank tabs being on the store to help Anet raise money but why so many skins?

Nerelith.7360:

You are so far behind , you think you’re ahead. Racing metaphor, to match your Tennis metaphor.

You are entrenched in your opinion. That does not make your opinion true.

When an individual is engaged in an activity, whether that activity is done for fun, or to earn cash, if the fruits of that activity can be exchanged for goods and Services that have a real world value, then whether or not they intended to earn money for that activity is irrelevant.

The fact that they can put X number of hours into Activity A, get compensated for the activity by some virtual currency B, and then exchange the currency for Virtual Item or Service C, that someone else could have obtained by paying $Y dollars USD, means that in the time that the player spent just involvd in an activity, recreational or otherwise,…. had value = to $Y.

Imagine you enjoy painting. And you get some oils, and start doing your paint thing simply out of pure pleasure. You hang the painting on your wall. And a friend comes by, says " WoW I really like that painting…I’ll pay you $10,000 for it." You sell the painting for $10,000. you did not get $10,000 for free. You earned it by painting the painting. That you did not believe at the time you were involved in work, does not matter. That it was done for recreation does not matter.

The ONLY way that the $10,000 you recieved would have been free is if the guy had just GIVEN you $10,000 as a gift.

I can understand that you are entrenched in your position, I can also understand that you are sincere in your beliefs. But You being entrenched and repeating yourself endlessly, does not make you right, and doesn’t turn your opinions to fact.

BTW if A=B and B=C, then A=C. IS a mathematical law. Nothing fallacious about it.

As Phys said, my position may or may not be an adequate representation of If A = B, and B=C, then A=C, but that doesn’t turn a law of mathematics into " fallacy."

The issue is that you are not using it correctly. It’s More Like….

“If the Note that eminating from my Guitar = High C, and the note emanating from my voice = High C, then The note emanating from my guitar = the note emanating from my voice.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130216123245AA1bCCU

PS: I used Castronova’s paper because castronova has assigned a GNP to Norrath, which is hard to do if players playing lacks monetary value.

PPS: It’s She, Not He.

/sigh

Again, your points are based on a fallacy: Affirming the consequent

Time has no monetary value, unless it’s the time in which monetary value is assigned. To simplify this, the 8 hours you spend working on a job is now assigned a monetary value. 8 hours playing on your computer at home has none.

Now you could make the argument that you’re self-employed, and therefore you work at home. But in that case, your income doesn’t come from a video game. It comes from something that others pay you for, be it as an at-home stock trader, or an entrepreneur who makes stuff animals for sale at the local flea market. Your time now has value added.

It’s interesting that you’re trying to use musical notes as a way to support your argument. Do realize that the notes that come from your guitar, piano, or even flute, are all the same as the notes you sing. Should I decide to go and sing my tenor part of Ave Maria, and play the same parts on my guitar, there would be harmony. The time you spent farming for Gold is not the same as the time you spent working your day job. So again, Time spent has no monetary value, but rather a perceived personal one. Would you have better spent it read a book? Or perhaps cooking dinner? Maybe it would have been better to wash the car on that beautiful sunny day. That is the true value of your Time.

One more thing, Dr. Castronova’s work is all theory, using assumptions to support his findings. My arguments are based on reality, so you can’t dispute these facts.

Rising Dusk.2408:

The distinction has to be made at the following level:

• Would you do this activity if it didn’t give you gold?

It’s an MMO so No. If the activity in question, playing Gw2, did not pay gold, ( in my opinion it doesn’t pay enough for the things I enjoy doing in the game)… then no.

If you say no, then you are ‘grinding’ content for gold, and thus your gold earned isn’t ‘free’ because it was the point.

I agree with you, and I am sure so do 99 % of MMO players. I am fairly certain if there were no drops of any kind, no gold no karma, no tokens, no compensation of any kind in dungeons … No xp, If anything done in that dungeon did not fulfill dailies or monthlies, No compansation for time spent in it, most of the players would stop doing dungeons.

So by your reasoning most players are “grinding” and Involved in economic activity.

I think it is impossible for any of us to make even remotely accurate claims as to what “most people do”. Doing so is naive. I speak only for myself when I say that I would do dungeons if they didn’t make gold because I enjoy the company I do dungeons with, and I also enjoy meeting and playing with new players I’ve never interacted with before. Maybe for someone else they feel otherwise. As an MMO it does lure in a certain type of player, but as a B2P game it also brings in a crowd who doesn’t care for grinding and doesn’t care about that sort of thing. Ultimately, I think the division of opinion here is because everyone has their own subjective answer to my question (and unique qualifications thereof), and that’s something we’ve just got to deal with.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

You are so far behind , you think you’re ahead. Racing metaphor, to match your Tennis metaphor.

You are entrenched in your opinion. That does not make your opinion true.

When an individual is engaged in an activity, whether that activity is done for fun, or to earn cash, if the fruits of that activity can be exchanged for goods and Services that have a real world value, then whether or not they intended to earn money for that activity is irrelevant.

The fact that they can put X number of hours into Activity A, get compensated for the activity by some virtual currency B, and then exchange the currency for Virtual Item or Service C, that someone else could have obtained by paying $Y dollars USD, means that in the time that the player spent just involvd in an activity, recreational or otherwise,…. had value = to $Y.

Imagine you enjoy painting. And you get some oils, and start doing your paint thing simply out of pure pleasure. You hang the painting on your wall. And a friend comes by, says " WoW I really like that painting…I’ll pay you $10,000 for it." You sell the painting for $10,000. you did not get $10,000 for free. You earned it by painting the painting. That you did not believe at the time you were involved in work, does not matter. That it was done for recreation does not matter.

The ONLY way that the $10,000 you recieved would have been free is if the guy had just GIVEN you $10,000 as a gift.

I can understand that you are entrenched in your position, I can also understand that you are sincere in your beliefs. But You being entrenched and repeating yourself endlessly, does not make you right, and doesn’t turn your opinions to fact.

BTW if A=B and B=C, then A=C. IS a mathematical law. Nothing fallacious about it.

As Phys said, my position may or may not be an adequate representation of If A = B, and B=C, then A=C, but that doesn’t turn a law of mathematics into " fallacy."

The issue is that you are not using it correctly. It’s More Like….

“If the Note that eminating from my Guitar = High C, and the note emanating from my voice = High C, then The note emanating from my guitar = the note emanating from my voice.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130216123245AA1bCCU

PS: I used Castronova’s paper because castronova has assigned a GNP to Norrath, which is hard to do if players playing lacks monetary value.

PPS: It’s She, Not He.

/sigh

Again, your points are based on a fallacy: Affirming the consequent

Time has no monetary value, unless it’s the time in which monetary value is assigned. To simplify this, the 8 hours you spend working on a job is now assigned a monetary value. 8 hours playing on your computer at home has none.

Now you could make the argument that you’re self-employed, and therefore you work at home. But in that case, your income doesn’t come from a video game. It comes from something that others pay you for, be it as an at-home stock trader, or an entrepreneur who makes stuff animals for sale at the local flea market. Your time now has value added.

It’s interesting that you’re trying to use musical notes as a way to support your argument. Do realize that the notes that come from your guitar, piano, or even flute, are all the same as the notes you sing. Should I decide to go and sing my tenor part of Ave Maria, and play the same parts on my guitar, there would be harmony. The time you spent farming for Gold is not the same as the time you spent working your day job. So again, Time spent has no monetary value, but rather a perceived personal one. Would you have better spent it read a book? Or perhaps cooking dinner? Maybe it would have been better to wash the car on that beautiful sunny day. That is the true value of your Time.

One more thing, Dr. Castronova’s work is all theory, using assumptions to support his findings. My arguments are based on reality, so you can’t dispute these facts.

Your opinions are not facts. Let’s Just agree to disagree?

By the way, you are misunderstanding my point it’s

If P→ Q, P, →Q.

Basic Logic.

You guys argue about concepts, not facts.

I feel transported back into philosophy class, if a tree falls in the woods and no one heard it, did it make a noise?

Rouven.7409:

You guys argue about concepts, not facts.

I feel transported back into philosophy class, if a tree falls in the woods and no one heard it, did it make a noise?

Depends was it a Mob, and does it drop loot?

lol

Nerelith.7360:

Rouven.7409:

You guys argue about concepts, not facts.

I feel transported back into philosophy class, if a tree falls in the woods and no one heard it, did it make a noise?

Depends was it a Mob, and does it drop loot?

lol

Schroedingers Precursor – if no one’s there no one can loot the tree!

Hehe. Maybe I’m mixing stuff up now.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I think it is impossible for any of us to make even remotely accurate claims as to what “most people do”. Doing so is naive. I speak only for myself when I say that I would do dungeons if they didn’t make gold because I enjoy the company I do dungeons with, and I also enjoy meeting and playing with new players I’ve never interacted with before. Maybe for someone else they feel otherwise. As an MMO it does lure in a certain type of player, but as a B2P game it also brings in a crowd who doesn’t care for grinding and doesn’t care about that sort of thing. Ultimately, I think the division of opinion here is because everyone has their own subjective answer to my question (and unique qualifications thereof), and that’s something we’ve just got to deal with.

Now you are being a bit disingenuous. I am sure that you would do dungeons if there were zero compensation since for you the compensation is social.

The time you spend doing them with friends, and helping friends complete content is payment enough for you. Your compensation is not economic.

But In general, while I cannot assign a %… I can say that in MMO’s the vast majority of players care about compensation, otherwise we would not have the arguments on the forums about " Content A does not pay enough"

And affirming " GW2 is different" doesn’t prove that the vast majority of players do not fall within the averages of MMO players In general… in other words…

Loot matters.

Rouven.7409:

You guys argue about concepts, not facts.

I feel transported back into philosophy class, if a tree falls in the woods and no one heard it, did it make a noise?

The Geico commercial I saw last week had the tree screaming for help. So yes, the tree does make a noise. Tree falling

Side note – my arguments are actually based on the fact that an individual’s time has no monetary value. There are only a few exception to this rule, as has been debated in this thread.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Rouven.7409:

You guys argue about concepts, not facts.

I feel transported back into philosophy class, if a tree falls in the woods and no one heard it, did it make a noise?

The Geico commercial I saw that week had the tree screaming for help. So yes, the tree does make a noise.

Side note – my arguments are actually based on the fact opinion that an individual’s time has no monetary value. There are only a few exception to this rule, as has been debated in this thread.

Fixed it for you.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

the sky isnt blue
a proper understanding of the relationship would be
skys color is blue
oceans color is blue
oceans color is equal to skys color.

but even by your own understanding/relationships

your time is money, anet has figured out how to convert your time to money.
every time you sell your gems, the time money transference machine activates, and anet has turned your ingame time to real hard, usable money. This is not really a new conversion, it was known to exist since people were selling items on the net in EQ and ultima online.

you gold->gem sellers are basically just gold sellers who work for anet, and all the time you spend is money for anet.

anet is the one who has figured out how to monetize your time playing the game, and in doing so they have cemented the time/money relationship.

yes even things you do for free, or dont realize have value, can have value. and in a monetary system that is doing its job, anything of value can be represented by money (though they do not always achieve this)

My time is worth money to Anet, because I actually buy Gems again and again. Anet makes no money if a player exchanges in game Gold for Gems.

As for time having monetary value, that can happen in the course of working a paying job. But in the sense of playing GW2 and converting Gold into Gems, that exchange is still free since you didn’t pay for it.

If you dont think people who create a good you can sell to other people arent making you money, i dont know what to tell you.

Anet makes money when you sell your gold, because they sell it to other players. If you did not create this gold, they could not sell it to other players.

I am a candy salesman, i find out there is demand for kids paintings. If i have kids making kid paintings, i sell for 5 dollars each, and i pay them in candy, their time, is my money. The more kids i have the more product i have to sell.
These kids time has a monetary value to me, i make money off of them.

I can now make money off of people who have no interest in candy, but do have interest in kids paintings. Those kids time, is money to me.

this is similar to the relationship of gold/gems gold →gem sellers.

Nerelith.7360:

Now you are being a bit disingenuous. I am sure that you would do dungeons if there were zero compensation since for you the compensation is social.

The time you spend doing them with friends, and helping friends complete content is payment enough for you. Your compensation is not economic.

But In general, while I cannot assign a %… I can say that in MMO’s the vast majority of players care about compensation, otherwise we would not have the arguments on the forums about " Content A does not pay enough"

And affirming " GW2 is different" doesn’t prove that the vast majority of players do not fall within the averages of MMO players In general… in other words…

Loot matters.

Sure it does, but you’re attributing data that you haven’t presented to us to a game with a completely different pay model compared to every other MMO. Those two issues alone are enough that any statements regarding the veracity of your claim can be dismissed as uninformed, no offense intended. As the claimant of the hypothesis you’re presenting as fact, the onus is on you to back it up. That is, however, assuming we want this to be a serious discussion (which I have thus far assumed as the case). If it’s more a gut feeling or hunch, then ignore this post as there’s not much discussion can be had on hunches or gut feelings.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

the sky isnt blue
a proper understanding of the relationship would be
skys color is blue
oceans color is blue
oceans color is equal to skys color.

but even by your own understanding/relationships

your time is money, anet has figured out how to convert your time to money.
every time you sell your gems, the time money transference machine activates, and anet has turned your ingame time to real hard, usable money. This is not really a new conversion, it was known to exist since people were selling items on the net in EQ and ultima online.

you gold->gem sellers are basically just gold sellers who work for anet, and all the time you spend is money for anet.

anet is the one who has figured out how to monetize your time playing the game, and in doing so they have cemented the time/money relationship.

yes even things you do for free, or dont realize have value, can have value. and in a monetary system that is doing its job, anything of value can be represented by money (though they do not always achieve this)

My time is worth money to Anet, because I actually buy Gems again and again. Anet makes no money if a player exchanges in game Gold for Gems.

As for time having monetary value, that can happen in the course of working a paying job. But in the sense of playing GW2 and converting Gold into Gems, that exchange is still free since you didn’t pay for it.

If you dont think people who create a good you can sell to other people arent making you money, i dont know what to tell you.

Anet makes money when you sell your gold, because they sell it to other players. If you did not create this gold, they could not sell it to other players.

I am a candy salesman, i find out there is demand for kids paintings. If i have kids making kid paintings, i sell for 5 dollars each, and i pay them in candy, their time, is my money. The more kids i have the more product i have to sell.
These kids time has a monetary value to me, i make money off of them.

I can now make money off of people who have no interest in candy, but do have interest in kids paintings. Those kids time, is money to me.

this is similar to the relationship of gold/gems gold ->gem sellers.

The Gem Exchange makes no money for Anet. It’s a convenience that allows us to access virtual currencies for either Gold -> Gems or Gems -> Gold. The money comes from players like me who actually purchase Gems with my creditcard or store bought Gem cards.

As as for your example, that doesn’t apply to this issue. You’re describing a situation where the children’s time now has a monetary value, because the paintings were made during the course of employment. So the paintings were not “free” for you. This actually ties into my arguments made previously.

Again, I’ll repeat this fact – exchanging Gold for Gems is free.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Rouven.7409:

You guys argue about concepts, not facts.

I feel transported back into philosophy class, if a tree falls in the woods and no one heard it, did it make a noise?

The Geico commercial I saw last week had the tree screaming for help. So yes, the tree does make a noise. Tree falling

Side note – my arguments are actually based on the fact that an individual’s time has no monetary value. There are only a few exception to this rule, as has been debated in this thread.

your time in this game, that you use to get gems does have a monetary value, i can tell you right now.
right now, if you can make 10 gold an hour, the value of your time, as defined by anets money machine is. $1.50 an hour
1 gold cost 15 cents.

every person who can make 10 gold an hour, and changes that 1 hours worth of gold to gems gets anet 1.50 cents. Thats money they only get because people are willing to sell their time to anet.

so yeah, your time making gold isnt worth very much, unless you are a tp overlord, but it is worth something.

Point is, anet has already monetized your time, this is not a case of your time has no value unless you are at work. You are at work, you just didnt know it. You are on the videogame “toilet” making money for anet when you sell gold.

its not indirect, its as direct as a gold selling company making money off people they make farm money for them (back in the day before it was all bots)

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

the sky isnt blue
a proper understanding of the relationship would be
skys color is blue
oceans color is blue
oceans color is equal to skys color.

but even by your own understanding/relationships

your time is money, anet has figured out how to convert your time to money.
every time you sell your gems, the time money transference machine activates, and anet has turned your ingame time to real hard, usable money. This is not really a new conversion, it was known to exist since people were selling items on the net in EQ and ultima online.

you gold->gem sellers are basically just gold sellers who work for anet, and all the time you spend is money for anet.

anet is the one who has figured out how to monetize your time playing the game, and in doing so they have cemented the time/money relationship.

yes even things you do for free, or dont realize have value, can have value. and in a monetary system that is doing its job, anything of value can be represented by money (though they do not always achieve this)

My time is worth money to Anet, because I actually buy Gems again and again. Anet makes no money if a player exchanges in game Gold for Gems.

As for time having monetary value, that can happen in the course of working a paying job. But in the sense of playing GW2 and converting Gold into Gems, that exchange is still free since you didn’t pay for it.

If you dont think people who create a good you can sell to other people arent making you money, i dont know what to tell you.

Anet makes money when you sell your gold, because they sell it to other players. If you did not create this gold, they could not sell it to other players.

I am a candy salesman, i find out there is demand for kids paintings. If i have kids making kid paintings, i sell for 5 dollars each, and i pay them in candy, their time, is my money. The more kids i have the more product i have to sell.
These kids time has a monetary value to me, i make money off of them.

I can now make money off of people who have no interest in candy, but do have interest in kids paintings. Those kids time, is money to me.

this is similar to the relationship of gold/gems gold ->gem sellers.

The Gem Exchange makes no money for Anet. It’s a convenience that allows us to access virtual currencies for either Gold -> Gems or Gems -> Gold. The money comes from players like me who actually purchase Gems with my creditcard or store bought Gem cards.

As as for your example, that doesn’t apply to this issue. You’re describing a situation where the children’s time now has a monetary value, because the paintings were made during the course of employment. So the paintings were not “free” for you. This actually ties into my arguments made previously.

Again, I’ll repeat this fact – exchanging Gold for Gems is free.

exchanging gem for gold is free, is irrelevant, just like exchanging candy for paintings is free is irrelevant to the fact that the kids time has a monetary value, because i am selling their paintings.

Anet is selling their gold, the moment they trade their gold for gems, they have entered an employment situation with anet. Anet will now take their gold, and sell it to a player who had little to no interest in the other cash shop items at that point.

they are the workers who create the product that anet can sell, therefore their work has a monetary value. to the tune of 15 cents per gold traded, thats what anet makes in real money right now, when someone buys gems to turn to gold.

Rising Dusk.2408:

41863kittenelith.7360:

Now you are being a bit disingenuous. I am sure that you would do dungeons if there were zero compensation since for you the compensation is social.

The time you spend doing them with friends, and helping friends complete content is payment enough for you. Your compensation is not economic.

But In general, while I cannot assign a %… I can say that in MMO’s the vast majority of players care about compensation, otherwise we would not have the arguments on the forums about " Content A does not pay enough"

And affirming " GW2 is different" doesn’t prove that the vast majority of players do not fall within the averages of MMO players In general… in other words…

Loot matters.

Sure it does, but you’re attributing data that you haven’t presented to us to a game with a completely different pay model compared to every other MMO. Those two issues alone are enough that any statements regarding the veracity of your claim can be dismissed as uninformed, no offense intended. As the claimant of the hypothesis you’re presenting as fact, the onus is on you to back it up. That is, however, assuming we want this to be a serious discussion (which I have thus far assumed as the case). If it’s more a gut feeling or hunch, then ignore this post as there’s not much discussion can be had on hunches or gut feelings.

No offense taken :-)… You feel that Gw2 is a special game, and that " The rules do not apply"

Gw2, is an MMO. Players in MMO’s care about loot.

Call me uninformed, I take no offence, because I am informed enough to know the type of players that play MMO’s. And affirming" Gw2 is different" while true…. gw2 is not so different that players do not care about loot.

If Players did not care about Loot, then the devs would remove Loot, xp, daily and monthly completion content, karma , prestige, armor drops…etc.

I Like Gw2. As do you, but I also acknowledge that Gw2 is an MMO, and some things are constant. A Lot of things can be changed and moved around, but one thing will always beconstant about MMO’s…

Loot matters.

Since loot matters you can say that most players spend their time " grinding" by your definition, since they are always trying to maximize gold for effort expended.

Loot matters.

The games where loot doesn’t matter are not MMO’s. if Gw2 is an MMO, loot matters. Therefore by your own definition, players are engaged in monetary economic activity.

Nerelith.7360:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

You are so far behind , you think you’re ahead. Racing metaphor, to match your Tennis metaphor.

You are entrenched in your opinion. That does not make your opinion true.

When an individual is engaged in an activity, whether that activity is done for fun, or to earn cash, if the fruits of that activity can be exchanged for goods and Services that have a real world value, then whether or not they intended to earn money for that activity is irrelevant.

The fact that they can put X number of hours into Activity A, get compensated for the activity by some virtual currency B, and then exchange the currency for Virtual Item or Service C, that someone else could have obtained by paying $Y dollars USD, means that in the time that the player spent just involvd in an activity, recreational or otherwise,…. had value = to $Y.

Imagine you enjoy painting. And you get some oils, and start doing your paint thing simply out of pure pleasure. You hang the painting on your wall. And a friend comes by, says " WoW I really like that painting…I’ll pay you $10,000 for it." You sell the painting for $10,000. you did not get $10,000 for free. You earned it by painting the painting. That you did not believe at the time you were involved in work, does not matter. That it was done for recreation does not matter.

The ONLY way that the $10,000 you recieved would have been free is if the guy had just GIVEN you $10,000 as a gift.

I can understand that you are entrenched in your position, I can also understand that you are sincere in your beliefs. But You being entrenched and repeating yourself endlessly, does not make you right, and doesn’t turn your opinions to fact.

BTW if A=B and B=C, then A=C. IS a mathematical law. Nothing fallacious about it.

As Phys said, my position may or may not be an adequate representation of If A = B, and B=C, then A=C, but that doesn’t turn a law of mathematics into " fallacy."

The issue is that you are not using it correctly. It’s More Like….

“If the Note that eminating from my Guitar = High C, and the note emanating from my voice = High C, then The note emanating from my guitar = the note emanating from my voice.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130216123245AA1bCCU

PS: I used Castronova’s paper because castronova has assigned a GNP to Norrath, which is hard to do if players playing lacks monetary value.

PPS: It’s She, Not He.

/sigh

Again, your points are based on a fallacy: Affirming the consequent

Time has no monetary value, unless it’s the time in which monetary value is assigned. To simplify this, the 8 hours you spend working on a job is now assigned a monetary value. 8 hours playing on your computer at home has none.

Now you could make the argument that you’re self-employed, and therefore you work at home. But in that case, your income doesn’t come from a video game. It comes from something that others pay you for, be it as an at-home stock trader, or an entrepreneur who makes stuff animals for sale at the local flea market. Your time now has value added.

It’s interesting that you’re trying to use musical notes as a way to support your argument. Do realize that the notes that come from your guitar, piano, or even flute, are all the same as the notes you sing. Should I decide to go and sing my tenor part of Ave Maria, and play the same parts on my guitar, there would be harmony. The time you spent farming for Gold is not the same as the time you spent working your day job. So again, Time spent has no monetary value, but rather a perceived personal one. Would you have better spent it read a book? Or perhaps cooking dinner? Maybe it would have been better to wash the car on that beautiful sunny day. That is the true value of your Time.

One more thing, Dr. Castronova’s work is all theory, using assumptions to support his findings. My arguments are based on reality, so you can’t dispute these facts.

Your opinions are not facts. Let’s Just agree to disagree?

By the way, you are misunderstanding my point it’s

If P-> Q, P, ->Q.

Basic Logic.

His statement is not an opinion. It IS a fact that:

“Time has no monetary value, unless it’s the time in which monetary value is assigned.”

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

You are so far behind , you think you’re ahead. Racing metaphor, to match your Tennis metaphor.

You are entrenched in your opinion. That does not make your opinion true.

When an individual is engaged in an activity, whether that activity is done for fun, or to earn cash, if the fruits of that activity can be exchanged for goods and Services that have a real world value, then whether or not they intended to earn money for that activity is irrelevant.

The fact that they can put X number of hours into Activity A, get compensated for the activity by some virtual currency B, and then exchange the currency for Virtual Item or Service C, that someone else could have obtained by paying $Y dollars USD, means that in the time that the player spent just involvd in an activity, recreational or otherwise,…. had value = to $Y.

Imagine you enjoy painting. And you get some oils, and start doing your paint thing simply out of pure pleasure. You hang the painting on your wall. And a friend comes by, says " WoW I really like that painting…I’ll pay you $10,000 for it." You sell the painting for $10,000. you did not get $10,000 for free. You earned it by painting the painting. That you did not believe at the time you were involved in work, does not matter. That it was done for recreation does not matter.

The ONLY way that the $10,000 you recieved would have been free is if the guy had just GIVEN you $10,000 as a gift.

I can understand that you are entrenched in your position, I can also understand that you are sincere in your beliefs. But You being entrenched and repeating yourself endlessly, does not make you right, and doesn’t turn your opinions to fact.

BTW if A=B and B=C, then A=C. IS a mathematical law. Nothing fallacious about it.

As Phys said, my position may or may not be an adequate representation of If A = B, and B=C, then A=C, but that doesn’t turn a law of mathematics into " fallacy."

The issue is that you are not using it correctly. It’s More Like….

“If the Note that eminating from my Guitar = High C, and the note emanating from my voice = High C, then The note emanating from my guitar = the note emanating from my voice.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130216123245AA1bCCU

PS: I used Castronova’s paper because castronova has assigned a GNP to Norrath, which is hard to do if players playing lacks monetary value.

PPS: It’s She, Not He.

/sigh

Again, your points are based on a fallacy: Affirming the consequent

Time has no monetary value, unless it’s the time in which monetary value is assigned. To simplify this, the 8 hours you spend working on a job is now assigned a monetary value. 8 hours playing on your computer at home has none.

Now you could make the argument that you’re self-employed, and therefore you work at home. But in that case, your income doesn’t come from a video game. It comes from something that others pay you for, be it as an at-home stock trader, or an entrepreneur who makes stuff animals for sale at the local flea market. Your time now has value added.

It’s interesting that you’re trying to use musical notes as a way to support your argument. Do realize that the notes that come from your guitar, piano, or even flute, are all the same as the notes you sing. Should I decide to go and sing my tenor part of Ave Maria, and play the same parts on my guitar, there would be harmony. The time you spent farming for Gold is not the same as the time you spent working your day job. So again, Time spent has no monetary value, but rather a perceived personal one. Would you have better spent it read a book? Or perhaps cooking dinner? Maybe it would have been better to wash the car on that beautiful sunny day. That is the true value of your Time.

One more thing, Dr. Castronova’s work is all theory, using assumptions to support his findings. My arguments are based on reality, so you can’t dispute these facts.

Your opinions are not facts. Let’s Just agree to disagree?

By the way, you are misunderstanding my point it’s

If P-> Q, P, ->Q.

Basic Logic.

His ’statement’s is not an opinion. It IS a fact that:

“Time has no monetary value, unless it’s the time in which monetary value is assigned. "

that statement means nothing. monetary value can be assigned after the fact, so its pretty useless statement.

Nerelith.7360:

No offense taken :-)… You feel that Gw2 is a special game, and that " The rules do not apply"

Gw2, is an MMO. Players in MMO’s care about loot.

Call me uninformed, I take no offence, because I am informed enough to know the type of players that play MMO’s. And affirming" Gw2 is different" while true…. gw2 is not so different that players do not care about loot.

If Players did not care about Loot, then the devs would remove Loot, xp, daily and monthly completion content, karma , prestige, armor drops…etc.

I Like Gw2. As do you, but I also acknowledge that Gw2 is an MMO, and some things are constant. A Lot of things can be changed and moved around, but one thing will always beconstant about MMO’s…

Loot matters.

Since loot matters you can say that most players spend their time " grinding" by your definition, since they are always trying to maximize gold for effort expended.

Loot matters.

The games where loot doesn’t matter are not MMO’s. if Gw2 is an MMO, loot matters. Therefore by your own definition, players are engaged in monetary economic activity.

I do not disagree that loot matters. It does. The question is how much it matters to the majority of players, and that is a question that you’re answering without presenting data, and by making wild assumptions and taking them as facts. I don’t refute your claims based on my opinion, I refute your claims based on a lack of evidence to support what you’re saying. It has nothing to do with what I ‘feel’ about the game.

EDIT: You’re also missing the point of my original postulated question. It doesn’t even have to be that dungeons or activities give no rewards, but what matters has to be that the players enjoy the experience of the action more than they enjoy the rewards. All of those people who are posting in the LS forums about how much they enjoy the fights and story and are replaying it for those reasons alone make up the group I’m talking about.

It’s actually very relevant statement because that assignment is completely arbitrary; You can choose whatever value you want to support your case. Even if you assign a monetary value to an amount of time, you will NEVER agree what that value should be, so it’s a stupid metric to use when making points about what things are ‘worth’ in the game.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Rouven.7409:

You guys argue about concepts, not facts.

I feel transported back into philosophy class, if a tree falls in the woods and no one heard it, did it make a noise?

The Geico commercial I saw last week had the tree screaming for help. So yes, the tree does make a noise. Tree falling

Side note – my arguments are actually based on the fact that an individual’s time has no monetary value. There are only a few exception to this rule, as has been debated in this thread.

your time in this game, that you use to get gems does have a monetary value, i can tell you right now.
right now, if you can make 10 gold an hour, the value of your time, as defined by anets money machine is. $1.50 an hour
1 gold cost 15 cents.

every person who can make 10 gold an hour, and changes that 1 hours worth of gold to gems gets anet 1.50 cents. Thats money they only get because people are willing to sell their time to anet.

so yeah, your time making gold isnt worth very much, unless you are a tp overlord, but it is worth something.

Point is, anet has already monetized your time, this is not a case of your time has no value unless you are at work. You are at work, you just didnt know it. You are on the videogame “toilet” making money for anet when you sell gold.

its not indirect, its as direct as a gold selling company making money off people they make farm money for them (back in the day before it was all bots)

Huge flaw to your argument. Time & Gold does not equal money. Anet isn’t paid when you exchange your Gold for Gems. That’s not how microtransactions work with MMOs. If no one spent any additional money outside of box sales of the game, this game would slowly die, as new box sales cannot be expected to remain constant. The revenue NCSoft gets is from players who pay for extras via Gem purchases. What they do with the Gems after the purchase doesn’t matter. The transaction was completed, and Gems delivered to the player who paid for them. Once the Gems are sold, they have no value to them, as per the User Agreement:

4. ACCOUNT AND PAYMENTS TO NCSOFT
(d) Gems
(vii) You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value

Obtena.7952:

It’s actually very relevant statement because that assignment is completely arbitrary; You can choose whatever value you want to support your case. Even if you assign a monetary value to an amount of time, you will NEVER agree what that value should be, so it’s a stupid metric to use.

the value that you or others have succesfully applied to the same task, is good enough. In this case anet has already determined they can make at this very moment 14 cents off of every gold traded in.
how much value your gold earning time is worth is already determined based on that. If you make 10 gold an hour, and sell it, the value of your time, to someone buying gold, is 1.40 $ an hour.

people agree what that value should be every day, multiple times a day, and they already have an agreement for what its worth right now. This is the real time value of your gold earning time right now, that anet is making money on at this rate right now.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Rouven.7409:

You guys argue about concepts, not facts.

I feel transported back into philosophy class, if a tree falls in the woods and no one heard it, did it make a noise?

The Geico commercial I saw last week had the tree screaming for help. So yes, the tree does make a noise. Tree falling

Side note – my arguments are actually based on the fact that an individual’s time has no monetary value. There are only a few exception to this rule, as has been debated in this thread.

your time in this game, that you use to get gems does have a monetary value, i can tell you right now.
right now, if you can make 10 gold an hour, the value of your time, as defined by anets money machine is. $1.50 an hour
1 gold cost 15 cents.

every person who can make 10 gold an hour, and changes that 1 hours worth of gold to gems gets anet 1.50 cents. Thats money they only get because people are willing to sell their time to anet.

so yeah, your time making gold isnt worth very much, unless you are a tp overlord, but it is worth something.

Point is, anet has already monetized your time, this is not a case of your time has no value unless you are at work. You are at work, you just didnt know it. You are on the videogame “toilet” making money for anet when you sell gold.

its not indirect, its as direct as a gold selling company making money off people they make farm money for them (back in the day before it was all bots)

Huge flaw to your argument. Time & Gold does not equal money. Anet isn’t paid when you exchange your Gold for Gems. That’s not how microtransactions work with MMOs. If no one spent any additional money outside of box sales of the game, this game would slowly die, as new box sales cannot be expected to remain constant. The revenue NCSoft gets is from players who pay for extras via Gem purchases. What they do with the Gems after the purchase doesn’t matter. The transaction was completed, and Gems delivered to the player who paid for them. Once the Gems are sold, they have no value to them, as per the User Agreement:

4. ACCOUNT AND PAYMENTS TO NCSOFT
(d) Gems
(vii) You acknowledge that Gems are digital material with no cash value

they would not have bought the product if they could not get something they wanted, thats like saying back in the day streetfighter game wasnt making more money in arcades, because people changed dollars into tokens.
its irrelevant if your tokens have no cash value in the arcade, the point is, what did they turn their dollars into tokens to do?

yes the streetfighter machine is making you money if people are spending their tokens on streetfighter.

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

You are so far behind , you think you’re ahead. Racing metaphor, to match your Tennis metaphor.

You are entrenched in your opinion. That does not make your opinion true.

When an individual is engaged in an activity, whether that activity is done for fun, or to earn cash, if the fruits of that activity can be exchanged for goods and Services that have a real world value, then whether or not they intended to earn money for that activity is irrelevant.

The fact that they can put X number of hours into Activity A, get compensated for the activity by some virtual currency B, and then exchange the currency for Virtual Item or Service C, that someone else could have obtained by paying $Y dollars USD, means that in the time that the player spent just involvd in an activity, recreational or otherwise,…. had value = to $Y.

Imagine you enjoy painting. And you get some oils, and start doing your paint thing simply out of pure pleasure. You hang the painting on your wall. And a friend comes by, says " WoW I really like that painting…I’ll pay you $10,000 for it." You sell the painting for $10,000. you did not get $10,000 for free. You earned it by painting the painting. That you did not believe at the time you were involved in work, does not matter. That it was done for recreation does not matter.

The ONLY way that the $10,000 you recieved would have been free is if the guy had just GIVEN you $10,000 as a gift.

I can understand that you are entrenched in your position, I can also understand that you are sincere in your beliefs. But You being entrenched and repeating yourself endlessly, does not make you right, and doesn’t turn your opinions to fact.

BTW if A=B and B=C, then A=C. IS a mathematical law. Nothing fallacious about it.

As Phys said, my position may or may not be an adequate representation of If A = B, and B=C, then A=C, but that doesn’t turn a law of mathematics into " fallacy."

The issue is that you are not using it correctly. It’s More Like….

“If the Note that eminating from my Guitar = High C, and the note emanating from my voice = High C, then The note emanating from my guitar = the note emanating from my voice.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130216123245AA1bCCU

PS: I used Castronova’s paper because castronova has assigned a GNP to Norrath, which is hard to do if players playing lacks monetary value.

PPS: It’s She, Not He.

/sigh

Again, your points are based on a fallacy: Affirming the consequent

Time has no monetary value, unless it’s the time in which monetary value is assigned. To simplify this, the 8 hours you spend working on a job is now assigned a monetary value. 8 hours playing on your computer at home has none.

Now you could make the argument that you’re self-employed, and therefore you work at home. But in that case, your income doesn’t come from a video game. It comes from something that others pay you for, be it as an at-home stock trader, or an entrepreneur who makes stuff animals for sale at the local flea market. Your time now has value added.

It’s interesting that you’re trying to use musical notes as a way to support your argument. Do realize that the notes that come from your guitar, piano, or even flute, are all the same as the notes you sing. Should I decide to go and sing my tenor part of Ave Maria, and play the same parts on my guitar, there would be harmony. The time you spent farming for Gold is not the same as the time you spent working your day job. So again, Time spent has no monetary value, but rather a perceived personal one. Would you have better spent it read a book? Or perhaps cooking dinner? Maybe it would have been better to wash the car on that beautiful sunny day. That is the true value of your Time.

One more thing, Dr. Castronova’s work is all theory, using assumptions to support his findings. My arguments are based on reality, so you can’t dispute these facts.

Your opinions are not facts. Let’s Just agree to disagree?

By the way, you are misunderstanding my point it’s

If P-> Q, P, ->Q.

Basic Logic.

His statement is not an opinion. It IS a fact that:

“Time has no monetary value, unless it’s the time in which monetary value is assigned.”

I agree. Time has no monetary value, unless it is time in which monetary value is assigned.

The difference is, that I believe that based on future decisions, and actions past time can be assigned monetary value.

So potentially, unless someone finds a way to make money sleeping… all time has value, except for time spent sleeping. Unless One finds a way to make money sleeping…

phys.7689:

they would not have bought the product if they could not get something they wanted, thats like saying back in the day streetfighter game wasnt making more money in arcades, because people changed dollars into tokens.
its irrelevant if your tokens have no cash value in the arcade, the point is, what did they turn their dollars into tokens to do?

yes the streetfighter machine is making you money if people are spending their tokens on streetfighter.

Nope, you’re wrong again on a couple of things.

1) The reasons why a player buys Gems can vary. But it’s the actual purchase of Gems that makes Anet/NCSoft money. Exchanging Gold for Gems does nothing for a stockholder who wants to see real revenue.

2) The token system in arcades had a single purpose – to force players to spend money only at the arcade in question. By offering bonus tokens for $5, $10, or $20 levels, you’ve effectively upsold them to spending more money, whereas allowing the use of quarters allows the player to pick and choose when they’re willing to leave.

I get what you’re saying about the token system, as it’s similar in scope to Gems in this case. But, Gems have multiple uses. Exchange them for Gold, for conveniences, or for looks. A big difference is that you can’t exchange anything except money for tokens, but you can exchange in game Gold for Gems for free. I would love to see someone try to exchange their time for tokens. Also. tokens weren’t optional. If you wanted to play, you needed to pay or go somewhere else.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

they would not have bought the product if they could not get something they wanted, thats like saying back in the day streetfighter game wasnt making more money in arcades, because people changed dollars into tokens.
its irrelevant if your tokens have no cash value in the arcade, the point is, what did they turn their dollars into tokens to do?

yes the streetfighter machine is making you money if people are spending their tokens on streetfighter.

Nope, you’re wrong again on a couple of things.

1) The reasons why a player buys Gems can vary. But it’s the actual purchase of Gems that makes Anet/NCSoft money. Exchanging Gold for Gems does nothing for a stockholder who wants to see real revenue.

Wrong see bold type makes you wrong cause…it’s in bold type.

Ok all kidding aside. If players did not sell gold for gems, ArenaNet would not have the gold to sell for gems to people that bought gems with cash.

So no. ArenaNet makes money when a player sells their gold for gems because it gives ArenaNet what it needs to fill one of the demands for gems, for whicjh players buy gems with cash… a ready supply of Gold. So yes, a stockbroker cares when a player sells his gold for gems, they just may not realize why they care, just as you don’t realize why they care. But..they care.

2) The token system in arcades had a single purpose – to force players to spend money only at the arcade in question. By offering bonus tokens for $5, $10, or $20 levels, you’ve effectively upsold them to spending more money, whereas allowing the use of quarters allows the player to pick and choose when they’re willing to leave.

His point was that by using tokens on the street fighter machine, even if the arcade runner said " these tokens have no cash value" ( You cannot sell them back for cash)… doesn’t mean that the machine is not generating money when you put tokens in the machine.

I get what you’re saying about the token system, as it’s similar in scope to Gems in this case. But, Gems have multiple uses. Exchange them for Gold, for conveniences, or for looks. A big difference is that you can’t exchange anything except money for tokens, but you can exchange in game Gold for Gems for free. I would love to see someone try to exchange their time for tokens. Also. tokens weren’t optional. If you wanted to play, you needed to pay or go somewhere else.

Just because you say for free in bold type even doesn’t make it free.

The moment you exchange gold for gems which can then be exchanged for Virtual goods and services which have a real world value, you have assigned monetary value to the time it took you to accrue that gold.

And saying for free in bold, doesn’t make it free. it simply makes it free in your opinion.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

It’s actually very relevant statement because that assignment is completely arbitrary; You can choose whatever value you want to support your case. Even if you assign a monetary value to an amount of time, you will NEVER agree what that value should be, so it’s a stupid metric to use.

the value that you or others have succesfully applied to the same task, is good enough.

I don’t know what that means. I do know that arbitrarily placing a value on your time to suit your own argument is nonsense when making statements about comparing value to ingame items that are simply purchased or ‘worked for’ by playing the game.

Nerelith.7360:

I agree. Time has no monetary value, unless it is time in which monetary value is assigned.

The difference is, that I believe that based on future decisions, and actions past time can be assigned monetary value.

I can’t respond to this because it makes no sense to me. so depending on what you decide to do in the future, your time may or may not be worth money? You’re going to have to explain it.

It sounds to me like you’re confusing potential to make money because you have free time with an actual amount of time you set aside to make money; a job. Those aren’t the same thing and that’s not a realistic view. At this point, I think the whole argument is just academic so I will get back to the real point.

Anet doesn’t care if your time has value or not. That’s not how the rewards in the game are determined. Value or not, the player decides how their time is spent and what value it has. In either case where the time may or not be valuable, there are equivalent methods to achieve the same rewards in GW2 because you can buy gems with RL money or IG Gold, so whatever way an individual player falls on the spectrum of ‘time=money’, it’s fair and equivalent.

Nerelith.7360:

Wrong see bold type makes you wrong cause…it’s in bold type.

Ok all kidding aside. If players did not sell gold for gems, ArenaNet would not have the gold to sell for gems to people that bought gems with cash.

So no. ArenaNet makes money when a player sells their gold for gems because it gives ArenaNet what it needs to fill one of the demands for gems, for whicjh players buy gems with cash… a ready supply of Gold. So yes, a stockbroker cares when a player sells his gold for gems, they just may not realize why they care, just as you don’t realize why they care. But..they care.

His point was that by using tokens on the street fighter machine, even if the arcade runner said " these tokens have no cash value" ( You cannot sell them back for cash)… doesn’t mean that the machine is not generating money when you put tokens in the machine.

Just because you say for free in bold type even doesn’t make it free.

The moment you exchange gold for gems which can then be exchanged for Virtual goods and services which have a real world value, you have assigned monetary value to the time it took you to accrue that gold.

And saying for free in bold, doesn’t make it free. it simply makes it free in your opinion.

I could say it in bold and in normal font, and that doesn’t change anything. It’s still a FACT, not an opinion.

There is no monetary value to Gold or to Gems. Just because Anet allows you to exchange Gems for Gold, doesn’t mean either has a monetary value. And this is no monetary value to your Time that you spent to farm any Gold in game. Never has been, never will. Facts are facts.

Both of you are trying to use an arcade example to support your arguments. And again, both of you are misapplying it simply because it sounds relevant. As I said, the token system is similar to the usage of Gems. If you bothered to read my post, you’ll see that you skipped over the explanations as to why you can’t take the argument any further. Arcades force players to exchange their money for tokens, in a way to monopolize the player’s money. They get you to spend your money there and no where else, rather than allowing the players to pay with quarters. It’s a business tactic that allows the arcade to profit. If you want to tie tokens into Gems to support your argument, you then need to prove that a player is also able to exchange something else of non-monetary value for tokens. Unfortunately, you can’t, so your argument ends there.

As for the Gem Exchange. allow me educate you on how it works. Anet loaded a set amount of Gold and Gems into the pot when the game first started. As time goes on, the exchange ratios go up or down, depending on the amount of Gold or Gems left in said pot. If more players exchange Gems for Gold, the ratios for that goes up, while the ratios for Gold to Gems goes down. At the moment, the ratios for exchanging Gold for Gems are pretty high, as a lot more players are doing that than Gems for Gold. With this in mind, the initial pot of Gold in the exchange still has the original amount Anet deposited, plus a whole lot extra.

Anet does not make money from players exchanging Gold for Gems. Not an opinion, but fact (just in case you didn’t understand). Anet makes money when I pay with my creditcard to buy Gems. Once I pay, I get Gems that have no monetary value. As with the arcade example, the business isn’t making money each time the player puts a token into the machine. The money was made as soon as the tokens were purchased. But that’s as far as the similarities go.

So when I say it’s “free”, that’s a cold hard fact. I spent no money and nothing else of monetary value should I farm for Gold to exchange for Gems. Anet allows for such a transaction for players who don’t wish to spend real money on microtransactions. If they took away the Gem Exchange, they would still be making money via Gem purchases, because that’s where the revenue is generated.

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

I agree. Time has no monetary value, unless it is time in which monetary value is assigned.

The difference is, that I believe that based on future decisions, and actions past time can be assigned monetary value.

I can’t respond to this because it makes no sense to me. so depending on what you decide to do in the future, your time may or may not be worth money? You’re going to have to explain it.

It sounds to me like you’re confusing potential to make money because you have free time with an actual amount of time you set aside to make money; a job. Those aren’t the same thing and that’s not a realistic view. At this point, I think the whole argument is just academic so I will get back to the real point.

Anet doesn’t care if your time has value or not. That’s not how the rewards in the game are determined. Value or not, the player decides how their time is spent and what value it has. In either case where the time may or not be valuable, there are equivalent methods to achieve the same rewards in GW2 because you can buy gems with RL money or IG Gold, so whatever way an individual player falls on the spectrum of ‘time=money’, it’s fair and equivalent.

I may be spending my recreational time playing Gw2. It may be time I do not assign any value to at the present moment. But I may in the future make decisions that suddenly retro-actively assign value to that time, even if at the time I Myself did not.

Example 1.

from real life.

A lawyer while in switzerland on vacation skiing has an accident, ends up in the hospital. While there he picks up a guitar to pass the time, and starts taking lessons while there, and then at home. He finds he has a feeling for the guitar. He keeps playing it as a hobby, his profession is law. Eventually he decides to try to use his talents at singing and guitar to earn a living. he becomes an international singing sensation.

The action of learning to play guitar was one he decided on for recreational purposes. At the time it was time spent on a hobby not a Job, and yet his decision, and actions that led to him selling records.. rendered that past time, learning to play guitar, an economic monetary one.

Future decisions and actions can make past time ..engaged in recreational activities have real monetary value.

Example 2. I Play Gw2. Purely for fun, relaxation, and recreation. Then in a year, I start a website, and write a pamphlet " make Gold In Gw2!!!" I sell it for $29 per download. I suddently am making money from what used to be a past time, the experiences I acquired in game…for pure recreation , now have a monetary value. That I Played Gw2 for 3 or 4 years ourely for recreational reasons, means that at the time i was Not engaged in economic or monetary activity. But the fact that I later decided to sell a book, that made Money, based on my experiences in game… suddenly turned all that previous " recreational" time… into " economic Monetary time.

How does this pertain to gw2 and selling gold for gems?

When you accrue the gems it may be Just " playing the game" and done purely for recreation. When you exchange that gold for gems…at that moment, even if you do not do anything with them, you have assigned Monetary value to the time it took to acquire the gold you exchanged. And the value can be obtained by comparing How much real world cash it would have taken to buy the very dsame number of gems you purchased with in game gold.

I don’t know at what point it happened but this thread turned into pure gold.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

Wrong see bold type makes you wrong cause…it’s in bold type.

Ok all kidding aside. If players did not sell gold for gems, ArenaNet would not have the gold to sell for gems to people that bought gems with cash.

So no. ArenaNet makes money when a player sells their gold for gems because it gives ArenaNet what it needs to fill one of the demands for gems, for whicjh players buy gems with cash… a ready supply of Gold. So yes, a stockbroker cares when a player sells his gold for gems, they just may not realize why they care, just as you don’t realize why they care. But..they care.

His point was that by using tokens on the street fighter machine, even if the arcade runner said " these tokens have no cash value" ( You cannot sell them back for cash)… doesn’t mean that the machine is not generating money when you put tokens in the machine.

Just because you say for free in bold type even doesn’t make it free.

The moment you exchange gold for gems which can then be exchanged for Virtual goods and services which have a real world value, you have assigned monetary value to the time it took you to accrue that gold.

And saying for free in bold, doesn’t make it free. it simply makes it free in your opinion.

I could say it in bold and in normal font, and that doesn’t change anything. It’s still a FACT, not an opinion.

There is no monetary value to Gold or to Gems. Just because Anet allows you to exchange Gems for Gold, doesn’t mean either has a monetary value. And this is no monetary value to your Time that you spent to farm any Gold in game. Never has been, never will. Facts are facts.

Yes Facts are Facts. But none of what you said was fact it’s just opinion. Anet says that in game gems have no monetary value, because they ant you to realize you cannot sell them back to Anet. That doesn’ mean they have no economic monetary value. They can say what they wish, but even Anet cannot contravene the science of economics.

Both of you are trying to use an arcade example to support your arguments. And again, both of you are misapplying it simply because it sounds relevant. As I said, the token system is similar to the usage of Gems. If you bothered to read my post, you’ll see that you skipped over the explanations as to why you can’t take the argument any further. Arcades force players to exchange their money for tokens, in a way to monopolize the player’s money. They get you to spend your money there and no where else, rather than allowing the players to pay with quarters. It’s a business tactic that allows the arcade to profit. If you want to tie tokens into Gems to support your argument, you then need to prove that a player is also able to exchange something else of non-monetary value for tokens. Unfortunately, you can’t, so your argument ends there.

Just because you like your explanation doesn’t mean i have to agree with it.

As for the Gem Exchange. allow me educate you on how it works. Anet loaded a set amount of Gold and Gems into the pot when the game first started. As time goes on, the exchange ratios go up or down, depending on the amount of Gold or Gems left in said pot. If more players exchange Gems for Gold, the ratios for that goes up, while the ratios for Gold to Gems goes down. At the moment, the ratios for exchanging Gold for Gems are pretty high, as a lot more players are doing that than Gems for Gold. With this in mind, the initial pot of Gold in the exchange still has the original amount Anet deposited, plus a whole lot extra.

Anet does not make money from players exchanging Gold for Gems. Not an opinion, but fact (just in case you didn’t understand). Anet makes money when I pay with my creditcard to buy Gems. Once I pay, I get Gems that have no monetary value. As with the arcade example, the business isn’t making money each time the player puts a token into the machine. The money was made as soon as the tokens were purchased. But that’s as far as the similarities go.

So when I say it’s “free”, that’s a cold hard fact. I spent no money and nothing else of monetary value should I farm for Gold to exchange for Gems. Anet allows for such a transaction for players who don’t wish to spend real money on microtransactions. If they took away the Gem Exchange, they would still be making money via Gem purchases, because that’s where the revenue is generated.

You cannot educate me since you yourself do not have all the answers.

You simply revert back to A is B, A is B. “My opinions are fact because I say they are fact.”

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Nerelith.7360:

I may be spending my recreational time playing Gw2. It may be time I do not assign any value to at the present moment. But I may in the future make decisions that suddenly retro-actively assign value to that time, even if at the time I Myself did not.

Example 1.

from real life.

A lawyer while in switzerland on vacation skiing has an accident, ends up in the hospital. While there he picks up a guitar to pass the time, and starts taking lessons while there, and then at home. He finds he has a feeling for the guitar. He keeps playing it as a hobby, his profession is law. Eventually he decides to try to use his talents at singing and guitar to earn a living. he becomes an international singing sensation.

The action of learning to play guitar was one he decided on for recreational purposes. At the time it was time spent on a hobby not a Job, and yet his decision, and actions that led to him selling records.. rendered that past time, learning to play guitar, an economic monetary one.

Future decisions and actions can make past time ..engaged in recreational activities have real monetary value.

Example 2. I Play Gw2. Purely for fun, relaxation, and recreation. Then in a year, I start a website, and write a pamphlet " make Gold In Gw2!!!" I sell it for $29 per download. I suddently am making money from what used to be a past time, the experiences I acquired in game…for pure recreation , now have a monetary value. That I Played Gw2 for 3 or 4 years ourely for recreational reasons, means that at the time i was Not engaged in economic or monetary activity. But the fact that I later decided to sell a book, that made Money, based on my experiences in game… suddenly turned all that previous " recreational" time… into " economic Monetary time.

How does this pertain to gw2 and selling gold for gems?

When you accrue the gems it may be Just " playing the game" and done purely for recreation. When you exchange that gold for gems…at that moment, even if you do not do anything with them, you have assigned Monetary value to the time it took to acquire the gold you exchanged. And the value can be obtained by comparing How much real world cash it would have taken to buy the very dsame number of gems you purchased with in game gold.

Wow. Just. Wow. This post is too high level for me to comprehend. Randomly assigning value to a non-value activity in the past…

Ahem, again, Gems have no monetary value, as per the User Agreement. It’s your own “perception” of value.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

I may be spending my recreational time playing Gw2. It may be time I do not assign any value to at the present moment. But I may in the future make decisions that suddenly retro-actively assign value to that time, even if at the time I Myself did not.

Example 1.

from real life.

A lawyer while in switzerland on vacation skiing has an accident, ends up in the hospital. While there he picks up a guitar to pass the time, and starts taking lessons while there, and then at home. He finds he has a feeling for the guitar. He keeps playing it as a hobby, his profession is law. Eventually he decides to try to use his talents at singing and guitar to earn a living. he becomes an international singing sensation.

The action of learning to play guitar was one he decided on for recreational purposes. At the time it was time spent on a hobby not a Job, and yet his decision, and actions that led to him selling records.. rendered that past time, learning to play guitar, an economic monetary one.

Future decisions and actions can make past time ..engaged in recreational activities have real monetary value.

Example 2. I Play Gw2. Purely for fun, relaxation, and recreation. Then in a year, I start a website, and write a pamphlet " make Gold In Gw2!!!" I sell it for $29 per download. I suddently am making money from what used to be a past time, the experiences I acquired in game…for pure recreation , now have a monetary value. That I Played Gw2 for 3 or 4 years ourely for recreational reasons, means that at the time i was Not engaged in economic or monetary activity. But the fact that I later decided to sell a book, that made Money, based on my experiences in game… suddenly turned all that previous " recreational" time… into " economic Monetary time.

How does this pertain to gw2 and selling gold for gems?

When you accrue the gems it may be Just " playing the game" and done purely for recreation. When you exchange that gold for gems…at that moment, even if you do not do anything with them, you have assigned Monetary value to the time it took to acquire the gold you exchanged. And the value can be obtained by comparing How much real world cash it would have taken to buy the very dsame number of gems you purchased with in game gold.

Wow. Just. Wow. This post is too high level for me to comprehend. Randomly assigning value to a non-value activity in the past…

Ahem, again, Gems have no monetary value, as per the User Agreement. It’s your own “perception” of value.

The User agreement cannot contravene the science of economics. It’s a legal position, not an economic one. We will have to agree to disagree.

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement cannot contravene the science of economics. It’s a legal position, not an economic one. We will have to agree to disagree.

It also applies economically, since Gems don’t have monetary value, nor does Time.

This is another case where the colloquial definition of a word has a very different meaning from how it’s used in a particular subject matter. The same way in science the Theory means a widely tested and accepted fact when theory to the public means a conjecture and supposition.

When Smooth uses monetary value it’s in the very specific definition of Economics. Gems in and of themselves have no value and therefore can’t be used to as a transitory property to equate cash that has a monetary value to in-game gold earned by playing the game.