Guild Wars 2

Um, Anet drafted that User Agreement and it’s an agreement between you and Anet … it’s hardly irrelevant or they wouldn’t make you sign it EVERY time you log in ><

This is just getting ridiculous. At this point, people are just lying. Anet doesn’t sell gold and ;the EULA is taken very seriously and is completely relevant to both Anet and GW2 players.

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Gems have a monetary value to ArenaNet prior to their sale. Once they are sold, they no longer have a monetary value (just a monetary cost) since they can no longer be used to acquire anything of value.

this whole converstation is about who and what pays anets money, so the monetary value in anets hands, is the important value.

gems in a players hand still have potential value to anet, because it can then be turned to gold. which has monetary value for anet through gems.

if i can trade fake money, for faker money for real money, then fake money has monetary value.
anet knows this, thats why they can still be in business.

The User agreement could say you agree that the sun rises in the west before you log in, That doesn’t mean they Just changed How the earth rotates.

The User agreement is a legal position, and Not even an incontrovertible one since many Eula have come under attack in courts of law, that are considering the fairness of making people agree to something after paying for an item, that is then not refundable.

Just tossing that out there. It is Not " The law" it is simply a legal position.

The User Agreement cannot impose definitions on terms that already have meaning.

Value is value. And the User agreement can say " gems have no value" or " Gold has no value." that doesn’t mean neither gems nor gold has value. It just means that is How Anet wants it.

As I said..they can make you agree to anything to log in and play the game, Just because they made you agree to it before you can log in and play doesn’t change the reality of economics.

Obtena.7952:

Um, Anet drafted that User Agreement … it’s hardly irrelevant or they wouldn’t make you sign it EVERY time you log in ><

This is just getting ridiculous. At this point, people are just lying. Anet doesn’t sell gold and ;the EULA is taken very seriously and is completely relevant.

anet didnt sign a user agreement, in fact anet lets you know the rules they put forth do not apply to them in the agreement in the user agreement.

yes anet has put a monetary value on gold, and anet allows players to buy the gold they get from players, via gems.

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement could say you agree that the sun rises in the west before you log in, That doesn’t mean they Just changed How the earth rotates.

Except the User Agreement doesn’t make you agree to nonsense .. .it’s actually stuff you CAN agree to, so it does have meaning when you say “yes, I agree”.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Um, Anet drafted that User Agreement … it’s hardly irrelevant or they wouldn’t make you sign it EVERY time you log in ><

This is just getting ridiculous. At this point, people are just lying. Anet doesn’t sell gold and ;the EULA is taken very seriously and is completely relevant.

anet didnt sign a user agreement, in fact anet lets you know the rules they put forth do not apply to them in the agreement in the user agreement.

yes anet has put a monetary value on gold, and anet allows players to buy the gold they get from players, via gems.

Anet doesn’t need to sign it. The fact it’s included in the game implies it’s something they agree with as an … agreement. I mean, your just being silly … Anet just puts an agreement up … but they don’t agree to it because they don’t sign it? Seriously, try something else. That’s just stupid.

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Gems have a monetary value to ArenaNet prior to their sale. Once they are sold, they no longer have a monetary value (just a monetary cost) since they can no longer be used to acquire anything of value.

this whole converstation is about who and what pays anets money, so the monetary value in anets hands, is the important value.

gems in a players hand still have potential value to anet, because it can then be turned to gold. which has monetary value for anet through gems.

if i can trade fake money, for faker money for real money, then fake money has monetary value.
anet knows this, thats why they can still be in business.

Except you cannot trade fake money for real money. It’s a one way trade (real money into fake money) which opens up two other options:
1. Fake money for other fake money.
2. Fake money for fake items.

The only way ArenaNet makes money is when people trade away real money for fake money. All of the fake trades after that point do not generate any real money, it is only the initial transfer of real money to fake money that generates revenue.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Gems have a monetary value to ArenaNet prior to their sale. Once they are sold, they no longer have a monetary value (just a monetary cost) since they can no longer be used to acquire anything of value.

this whole converstation is about who and what pays anets money, so the monetary value in anets hands, is the important value.

gems in a players hand still have potential value to anet, because it can then be turned to gold. which has monetary value for anet through gems.

if i can trade fake money, for faker money for real money, then fake money has monetary value.
anet knows this, thats why they can still be in business.

Except you cannot trade fake money for real money. It’s a one way trade (real money into fake money) which opens up two other options:
1. Fake money for other fake money.
2. Fake money for fake items.

The only way ArenaNet makes money is when people trade away real money for fake money. All of the fake trades after that point do not generate any real money, it is only the initial transfer of real money to fake money that generates revenue.

from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.

like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.

anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.

this is their business model.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Um, Anet drafted that User Agreement … it’s hardly irrelevant or they wouldn’t make you sign it EVERY time you log in ><

This is just getting ridiculous. At this point, people are just lying. Anet doesn’t sell gold and ;the EULA is taken very seriously and is completely relevant.

anet didnt sign a user agreement, in fact anet lets you know the rules they put forth do not apply to them in the agreement in the user agreement.

yes anet has put a monetary value on gold, and anet allows players to buy the gold they get from players, via gems.

Anet doesn’t need to sign it. The fact it’s included in the game implies it’s something they agree with as an … agreement. I mean, your just being silly … Anet just puts an agreement up … but they don’t agree to it because they don’t sign it? Seriously, try something else. That’s just stupid.

no, they agree, that YOU agree to what you signed. The very begining they tell you what YOU the user is, and ANET the company is.
the rules for YOU the user, and ANET the company are very different.
you the user agree that you will not sell your gold, and that you will not try get money for gems (even though this is not actually legal in many states, and essentially is ignored due to return policies)
Anet agrees that it has the right to sell, give out, create or destroy gems at any time. Anet agrees that they are not repsonsible for your gold, and agrees they can sell your gold for real money.

if you are going to bring up legal documents, try to understand that there is two parties, and they are agreeing to very different things.

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement could say you agree that the sun rises in the west before you log in, That doesn’t mean they Just changed How the earth rotates.

The User agreement is a legal position, and Not even an incontrovertible one since many Eula have come under attack in courts of law, that are considering the fairness of making people agree to something after paying for an item, that is then not refundable.

Just tossing that out there. It is Not " The law" it is simply a legal position.

The User Agreement cannot impose definitions on terms that already have meaning.

Value is value. And the User agreement can say " gems have no value" or " Gold has no value." that doesn’t mean neither gems nor gold has value. It just means that is How Anet wants it.

As I said..they can make you agree to anything to log in and play the game, Just because they made you agree to it before you can log in and play doesn’t change the reality of economics.

You first need to understand economics before you can debate it.

I can forgive you for not understanding how the Gem Exchange or microtransactions work though. This isn’t something that there’s in-game hint or explanations to guide you on the inner workings of such areas. Players like me who either studied business, or have a firm grasp on business practices love to understand unique sales methods such as MMO microtransactions. There’s a psychology involved that defies normal logic, in terms of what an individual values personally, and spending habits. But I digress, my expertise isn’t the reason for this debate. What matters here is that the Gem Store works, and that it helps players who want to exchange in-game Gold for Gem for free.

phys.7689:

from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.

like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.

anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.

this is their business model.

Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement could say you agree that the sun rises in the west before you log in, That doesn’t mean they Just changed How the earth rotates.

The User agreement is a legal position, and Not even an incontrovertible one since many Eula have come under attack in courts of law, that are considering the fairness of making people agree to something after paying for an item, that is then not refundable.

Just tossing that out there. It is Not " The law" it is simply a legal position.

The User Agreement cannot impose definitions on terms that already have meaning.

Value is value. And the User agreement can say " gems have no value" or " Gold has no value." that doesn’t mean neither gems nor gold has value. It just means that is How Anet wants it.

As I said..they can make you agree to anything to log in and play the game, Just because they made you agree to it before you can log in and play doesn’t change the reality of economics.

You first need to understand economics before you can debate it.

I can forgive you for not understanding how the Gem Exchange or microtransactions work though. This isn’t something that there’s in-game hint or explanations to guide you on the inner workings of such areas. Players like me who either studied business, or have a firm grasp on business practices love to understand unique sales methods such as MMO microtransactions. There’s a psychology involved that defies normal logic, in terms of what an individual values personally, and spending habits. But I digress, my expertise isn’t the reason for this debate. What matters here is that the Gem Store works, and that it helps players who want to exchange in-game Gold for Gem for free.

still trying another experiment in reality alteration through forum hypnosis?

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.

like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.

anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.

this is their business model.

Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.

I actually see it a bit differently MT. With Gems, I say they have no monetary value, but rather Entertainment Value. I’m paying Anet for a service that entertains me. So the monetary value of the transaction ends once I paid Anet for the privilege to access the entertainment.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.

like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.

anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.

this is their business model.

Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.

I actually see it a bit differently MT. With Gems, I say they have no monetary value, but rather Entertainment Value. I’m paying Anet for a service that entertains me. So the monetary value of the transaction ends once I paid Anet for the privilege to access the entertainment.

I think we see them the same way. My post here was exclusively focused on gems as from the perspective of ArenaNet (where they are like movie tickets, worth $10 to the theater but $0 to the moviegoer). We are completely in agreement that once the transaction occurs, the gems have no value to the buyer as they are purely for entertainment.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.

like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.

anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.

this is their business model.

Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.

monetary value still works through transition.

if you can trade one apple for one orange, and you can sell apples for 2 dollars, oranges still have a monetary value through apples.
monetary value is the worth of the money you can obtain by trading the item. even if there is a step inbetween, it still has monetary value.
this is the premise of use of currencies between different countries.

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.

like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.

anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.

this is their business model.

Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.

monetary value still works through transition.

if you can trade one apple for one orange, and you can sell apples for 2 dollars, oranges still have a monetary value through apples.
monetary value is the worth of the money you can obtain by trading the item. even if there is a step inbetween, it still has monetary value.
this is the premise of use of currencies between different countries.

Which is precisely the reason the definition has “if sold” in it.

Noun 1. monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

Nerelith.7360:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

How can you possibly say gems have no monetary value when it’s in writing that they are sold 800 for 10 dollars? After they are purchased by the player they might not retain that original value, but that does not nullify that they had it at one point.

Gems have a monetary value to ArenaNet prior to their sale. Once they are sold, they no longer have a monetary value (just a monetary cost) since they can no longer be used to acquire anything of value.

Except that you can use gems to buy in game gold that has value.

Even the Federal government thought so enough to look into the issue.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/06/19/congressional-report-says-you-may-owe-taxes-on-your-wow-income/

Another mistake you’re making is that you assume that our government representatives know what they’re doing in the first place. This idea is silly, and is doomed to fail in any economy. I already pay taxes on my Gems that I buy. I’m not paying taxes on anything else.

My point is, even the government is thinking that there is value In in game holdings if there is a Potential that said Holdings can be turned into actual real world income.

Not the crux of my argument, but simply pointing to it as a " see I’m Not the only one." and you discounting it by saying " Oh well, what do they know?" doesn’t make the fact that even the government is looking into it" a valid supporting argument

yes you can discount it, that doesn’t make it go away. it’s Like the ostrich with it’s head In the sand that thinks the threat is gone because they cannot see it.

GW2 is a “closed-flow system” in that we cannot (legally) generate real world income for our gaming assets, like you can for D3.

In cases like D3, it’s no different than owning your own small business, such as a hobby or a craft business, or winning the lottery or even receiving funds via a will. Income over a certain amount is taxable, no matter it’s source. .

phys.7689:

monetary value still works through transition.

if you can trade one apple for one orange, and you can sell apples for 2 dollars, oranges still have a monetary value through apples.
monetary value is the worth of the money you can obtain by trading the item. even if there is a step inbetween, it still has monetary value.
this is the premise of use of currencies between different countries.

Except ArenaNet does not trade apples for oranges, nor oranges for apples. ArenaNet only sells apples for dollars and bans you from ever selling their apples. They let you trade your apples with other people for oranges or they let you trade your apples for some of their ArenaNet bananas. So while oranges and bananas are the reason people are buying apples, oranges and bananas aren’t worth any dollars because no one can buy them with dollars.

Obtena.7952:

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement could say you agree that the sun rises in the west before you log in, That doesn’t mean they Just changed How the earth rotates.

Except the User Agreement doesn’t make you agree to nonsense .. .it’s actually stuff you CAN agree to, so it does have meaning when you say “yes, I agree”.

The User agreement does have you agree to non-sense. It has you agree to the following.

“Things that have economic monetary value do not have any economic monetary value, because that is How we like it.”

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.

like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.

anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.

this is their business model.

Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.

monetary value still works through transition.

if you can trade one apple for one orange, and you can sell apples for 2 dollars, oranges still have a monetary value through apples.
monetary value is the worth of the money you can obtain by trading the item. even if there is a step inbetween, it still has monetary value.
this is the premise of use of currencies between different countries.

The apple is free if you pick it yourself, so if you trade one orange for one apple, the value at hand is now fruit. If you eat the apple or orange, the value is now nutritional. If you go to a market, and sell the apple you picked, the apple now has monetary value. If I sold the apple to a store, it now has monetary value.

Gems are a virtual currency that doesn’t exist. Ergo, no monetary value.

Edit for typos.

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement does have you agree to non-sense.

The User Agreement is not non-sense. If you don’t agree to the terms, you don’t get to play the game.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement could say you agree that the sun rises in the west before you log in, That doesn’t mean they Just changed How the earth rotates.

The User agreement is a legal position, and Not even an incontrovertible one since many Eula have come under attack in courts of law, that are considering the fairness of making people agree to something after paying for an item, that is then not refundable.

Just tossing that out there. It is Not " The law" it is simply a legal position.

The User Agreement cannot impose definitions on terms that already have meaning.

Value is value. And the User agreement can say " gems have no value" or " Gold has no value." that doesn’t mean neither gems nor gold has value. It just means that is How Anet wants it.

As I said..they can make you agree to anything to log in and play the game, Just because they made you agree to it before you can log in and play doesn’t change the reality of economics.

You first need to understand economics before you can debate it.

I can forgive you for not understanding how the Gem Exchange or microtransactions work though. This isn’t something that there’s in-game hint or explanations to guide you on the inner workings of such areas. Players like me who either studied business, or have a firm grasp on business practices love to understand unique sales methods such as MMO microtransactions. There’s a psychology involved that defies normal logic, in terms of what an individual values personally, and spending habits. But I digress, my expertise isn’t the reason for this debate. What matters here is that the Gem Store works, and that it helps players who want to exchange in-game Gold for Gem for free.

still trying another experiment in reality alteration through forum hypnosis?

Maybe if he says over and over " you don’t understand economics, you don’t understand economics,…" I’ll forget that I have a better grasp of it than he has.

I think the " I studied business" thing has him convinced that the Business he tudied actually made an impression when economics is discussed in new forms.

Personally, if the business he studied left him with the impression that a EULA can negate value where it exists… Like saying" if you agree to this then that tree that is outside your door is made of air as Long as you are logged in" and it becomes real.. because to play the game you need to agree to it. I Might look into getting my money back.

" The User agreement…the user agreement!!" Like it’s some magic phrase.

We are discussing if a Pentagon has 5 sides. it’s a basic fact of life, that has definitions. And what he fails to realize is that the user agreement can make you agree to it, before you can play the game you paid for…but it cannot re-define what already has a definition.

it cannot redefine Monetary value. And it cannot ipso-facto eliminate monetary value, and then re-assign the item value, Just because it made a person agree to it.

The real world has already defined a pentagon, and a million User agreements cannot redefine it. The real world already defined Monetary value, and Anet’s User agreement cannot redefine it.

PS Just because someone on the internet that is " an anonymous voice" says ’ My expertise." doesn’t mean I have to accept that there is expertise there. I mean..I can say " I am the queen of england." doesn’t make it so. So expertise can be claimed…. and claimed believably, until a person shows a lack of understanding of monetary value, what has it, and what lacks it, then they can say " I studied business…after I studied law." til they are blue in the face….

mtpelion.4562:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.

like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.

anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.

this is their business model.

Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.

I actually see it a bit differently MT. With Gems, I say they have no monetary value, but rather Entertainment Value. I’m paying Anet for a service that entertains me. So the monetary value of the transaction ends once I paid Anet for the privilege to access the entertainment.

I think we see them the same way. My post here was exclusively focused on gems as from the perspective of ArenaNet (where they are like movie tickets, worth $10 to the theater but $0 to the moviegoer). We are completely in agreement that once the transaction occurs, the gems have no value to the buyer as they are purely for entertainment.

if you want to think of it as movie tickets, for arena net, you must consider that how much money a theater makes depends on what movies they are showing, and how much people like each movie.

you must also realize that if people want to buy tickets for girls they want to take on dates, the girl who wants to go to the movies, is actually making you money. The guy who wants to go to the movie, and is willing to do Richie Riches homework to get a ticket, is making you money.

Anet is doubly smart, because they essentially set up a situation where Richie Rich gives them more money to get the homework guy to work for richie rich, than if richie rich had set up the deal himself.

so yes, you can sell tickets, and still you make money off a bunch of people who didnt buy the tickets.(gold to gem traders)
yes, what movies you choose matter (what you can buy with gems)
yes, if you can get in the middle succesfully, you can profit of people who seek to use your tickets as a grey market to trade other things of value to them specifically (gem to gold trade)

And if you think a movie ticket is just a movie ticket and the movies you select, and the people who dont pay for movies themselves(think almost every child) are not relevant to your profits, you wont be in business too long.

Nerelith.7360:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

The User agreement could say you agree that the sun rises in the west before you log in, That doesn’t mean they Just changed How the earth rotates.

The User agreement is a legal position, and Not even an incontrovertible one since many Eula have come under attack in courts of law, that are considering the fairness of making people agree to something after paying for an item, that is then not refundable.

Just tossing that out there. It is Not " The law" it is simply a legal position.

The User Agreement cannot impose definitions on terms that already have meaning.

Value is value. And the User agreement can say " gems have no value" or " Gold has no value." that doesn’t mean neither gems nor gold has value. It just means that is How Anet wants it.

As I said..they can make you agree to anything to log in and play the game, Just because they made you agree to it before you can log in and play doesn’t change the reality of economics.

You first need to understand economics before you can debate it.

I can forgive you for not understanding how the Gem Exchange or microtransactions work though. This isn’t something that there’s in-game hint or explanations to guide you on the inner workings of such areas. Players like me who either studied business, or have a firm grasp on business practices love to understand unique sales methods such as MMO microtransactions. There’s a psychology involved that defies normal logic, in terms of what an individual values personally, and spending habits. But I digress, my expertise isn’t the reason for this debate. What matters here is that the Gem Store works, and that it helps players who want to exchange in-game Gold for Gem for free.

still trying another experiment in reality alteration through forum hypnosis?

Maybe if he says over and over " you don’t understand economics, you don’t understand economics,…" I’ll forget that I have a better grasp of it than he has.

I think the " I studied business" thing has him convinced that the Business he tudied actually made an impression when economics is discussed in new forms.

Personally, if the business he studied left him with the impression that a EULA can negate value where it exists… Like saying" if you agree to this then that tree that is outside your door is made of air as Long as you are logged in" and it becomes real.. because to play the game you need to agree to it. I Might look into getting my money back.

" The User agreement…the user agreement!!" Like it’s some magic phrase.

We are discussing if a Pentagon has 5 sides. it’s a basic fact of life, that has definitions. And what he fails to realize is that the user agreement can make you agree to it, before you can play the game you paid for…but it cannot re-define what already has a definition.

it cannot redefine Monetary value. And it cannot ipso-facto eliminate monetary value, and then re-assign the item value, Just because it made a person agree to it.

The real world has already defined a pentagon, and a million User agreements cannot redefine it. The real world already defined Monetary value, and Anet’s User agreement cannot redefine it.

PS Just because someone on the internet that is " an anonymous voice" says ’ My expertise." doesn’t mean I have to accept that there is expertise there. I mean..I can say " I am the queen of england." doesn’t make it so. So expertise can be claimed…. and claimed believably, until a person shows a lack of understanding of monetary value, what has it, and what lacks it, then they can say " I studied business…after I studied law." til they are blue in the face….

i doubt he is serious at this point

Essence Snow.3194:

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.

like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.

anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.

this is their business model.

Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.

monetary value still works through transition.

if you can trade one apple for one orange, and you can sell apples for 2 dollars, oranges still have a monetary value through apples.
monetary value is the worth of the money you can obtain by trading the item. even if there is a step inbetween, it still has monetary value.
this is the premise of use of currencies between different countries.

Which is precisely the reason the definition has “if sold” in it.

Noun 1. monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

Yes, when you buy it from Anet it is sold to you.

Definition applies.

Nerelith.7360:

~~~ snip ~~~

On the contrary, my background in business allows me to understand concepts and mechanics such as the Gem Exchange. Because Anet employees have explained how it works, I now know both how and why it works.

Please don’t misunderstand me when I point out your flaws. Because you didn’t realize that players aren’t buying Gems for real money from the Gem Exchange, your whole argument was invalid. And as I stated previously, your misapplied individual feelings of “value” is one of the reasons why you now assume that Gold has some sort of monetary value. I don’t doubt that you value Gold or Gems. I value them too, on a personal level.

Nerelith.7360:

Essence Snow.3194:

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

from the perspective of anet, yes you can.
this is about what makes anet money, anet can does in fact trade fake money for real money.

like i said this is about what anet can profit off of, and what is of monetary value to anet.
the gold players trade to them is of monetary value to anet.
notice in all my explanations i told you how much money anet makes off these things, not how much i make.

anet gets monetary value from players trading gold, and actual money from people who trade gems.

this is their business model.

Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.

monetary value still works through transition.

if you can trade one apple for one orange, and you can sell apples for 2 dollars, oranges still have a monetary value through apples.
monetary value is the worth of the money you can obtain by trading the item. even if there is a step inbetween, it still has monetary value.
this is the premise of use of currencies between different countries.

Which is precisely the reason the definition has “if sold” in it.

Noun 1. monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)monetary value – the property of having material worth (often indicated by the amount of money something would bring if sold)

Yes, when you buy it from Anet it is sold to you.

Definition applies.

/sigh

Anet sold you the rights and privilege of enjoying their Entertainment. You own nothing of monetary value.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

~~~ snip ~~~

On the contrary, my background in business allows me to understand concepts and mechanics such as the Gem Exchange. Because Anet employees have explained how it works, I now know both how and why it works.

Please don’t misunderstand me when I point out your flaws. Because you didn’t realize that players aren’t buying Gems for real money from the Gem Exchange, your whole argument was invalid. And as I stated previously, your misapplied individual feelings of “value” is one of the reasons why you now assume that Gold has some sort of monetary value. I don’t doubt that you value Gold or Gems. I value them too, on a personal level.

Let me try again.

Player A goes to Anet exchanges their gold for gems. Giving Anet more gold for inventory to sell to anyone that wishes to exchange it’s gems that they purchased with cash…for gold.

Player B comes along, and buys… gems. They then exchange those gems for the Gold player A sold Anet.

At THIS Point… Anet realized the monetary value, it had obtained from player A, when Player A sold their gold for gems.

Player B… purchased Gems with cash, that it then exchanged for gold. Player B BOUGHT Gold with Cash.

Gems and Gold have monetary value. The fact that neither can be sold for cash by players does not mean that they suddenly LACK Monetary value.

Since whether in the players Possession or Anet’s, Gems and Gold can potentially BOTH be sold for cash By Anet, they have Monetary value for Anet.

The fact that they have monetary value for anet, means they have monetary value.

PS. Anet DOES make MORE Money eventually when they sell gems to players that purchase them for in game gold, than when they sell them directly to players that pay cash for gems.

In the BEST of all Possible worlds..the situation Anet hopes for is…

Player B buys Gems with Cash, Player A buys Gems with Gold. Player B buys gold with gems… and Player A Buys Gem store Items with gems.

THIS situation gives Anet the greatest value. It has been explained adequately. If you cannot understand it, then… not sure what to say. Anyway… back to lurking.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

41923kittenelith.7360:

The User agreement does have you agree to non-sense.

The User Agreement is not non-sense. If you don’t agree to the terms, you don’t get to play the game.

The irony is that he agrees with what he thinks is nonsense everytime he plays by accepting it.

Obtena.7952:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

41923kittenelith.7360:

The User agreement does have you agree to non-sense.

The User Agreement is not non-sense. If you don’t agree to the terms, you don’t get to play the game.

The irony is that he agrees with what he thinks is nonsense everytime he plays by accepting it.

Not Ironic. I paid cash for a Game. I enjoy playing the game, and Like 90 % of players that purchased the game, I agree to it, because it gets me in the game.

That doesn’t mean everything in it makes sense. it Just means i have to click it to play and do.

it can say " The Moon is made of Blue cheese, and the sun disappears after 8 PM… Alpha Centauri fits In your back pocket because of magic Wobblie beams coming from Pluto."

Most players don’t Know it’s not there, and Most players don’t care. Which is One reason EULA’s are being argued in courts.

What I agree to when I click the User agreement doesn’r mean I check my brain at the door.

Nonsense is nonsense , even if I agree to it, to play the game I paid for.

PS: it is she, Not he.

Just a thought that occured to me… Smooth Penguin and a few others seem to have latched onto “The User Agreement” as if it were some Kind of trump card.

Cosidering Smooth penguins Legal education I would assume since I have said a few times " it’s a legal position" that would be enough for him to understand what I am saying.

I will assume he does. As for the others trumpeting the " The user agreement" card. All that is, is a defence for Anet..if anything happens to it’s servers that allows for the loss of your gem or gold holdings.

Example.

Player A spends $10,000 in cash to buy Gems. After receiving the gems there through no fault of his own… he loses the gems, whether because there was an ourage… there was a server issue…etc..etc..etc… the sky turned red and the moon rose in the west… the gems went, and are irretrievably lost.

The Player tells Anet.

Anet investigates and reserving the right to not compensate Player A tells him that there is nothing to be done, the gems are gone.

He can say " I Paid $10,000 I want either my gems, or my money."

Now.

Anet MIGHT decide it is best to just pay the guy. Or decide to add the equivalent in gems to his account… but…

The language " Gems have no monetary value and only have entertainment value." is there, so that it can reserve the right to deny Player A’s claim of having a RIGHT to a refund.

They MIGHT grant one, or NOT. That is entirely up to Anet.

THAT is why the User agreement says " Gems have no monetary value."

it’s a legal position, not an economic one. Purely added to the agreement to shield it from lawsuits.

PS: So what I am agreeing to, when I click on the User agreement is that ..Legally, I will Not sue Anet if anything happens to My gems and Gold in game.

I am Not agreeing to some economic nonsense that what has economic monetary value ceases to have it while In My possession even when it does have it in reality.

Nerelith.7360:

Just a thought that occured to me… Smooth Penguin and a few others seem to have latched onto “The User Agreement” as if it were some Kind of trump card.

Cosidering Smooth penguins Legal education I would assume since I have said a few times " it’s a legal position" that would be enough for him to understand what I am saying.

I will assume he does. As for the others trumpeting the " The user agreement" card. All that is, is a defence for Anet..if anything happens to it’s servers that allows for the loss of your gem or gold holdings.

Example.

Player A spends $10,000 in cash to buy Gems. After receiving the gems there through no fault of his own… he loses the gems, whether because there was an ourage… there was a server issue…etc..etc..etc… the sky turned red and the moon rose in the west… the gems went, and are irretrievably lost.

The Player tells Anet.

Anet investigates and reserving the right to not compensate Player A tells him that there is nothing to be done, the gems are gone.

He can say " I Paid $10,000 I want either my gems, or my money."

Now.

Anet MIGHT decide it is best to just pay the guy. Or decide to add the equivalent in gems to his account… but…

The language " Gems have no monetary value and only have entertainment value." is there, so that it can reserve the right to deny Player A’s claim of having a RIGHT to a refund.

They MIGHT grant one, or NOT. That is entirely up to Anet.

THAT is why the User agreement says " Gems have no monetary value."

it’s a legal position, not an economic one. Purely added to the agreement to shield it from lawsuits.

PS: So what I am agreeing to, when I click on the User agreement is that ..Legally, I will Not sue Anet if anything happens to My gems and Gold in game.

I am Not agreeing to some economic nonsense that what has economic monetary value ceases to have it while In My possession even when it does have it in reality.

Now I know how my professors felt when I didn’t understand concepts in class.

The portion of the User Agreement that I quoted basically spells out that everything is property of Anet/NCSoft. We own nothing, but rather are granted the privilege to access the content. You’re paying for entertainment when you “buy Gems”. Even so, the agreement also spells out that Anet/NCSoft has the full legal rights to void any Gems you have, without refund.

This doesn’t mean they act in such a way, as we’ve seen already. When there are issues with Gem Store items, Customer Support works with the players to refund the Gems, or return missing items. That’s the morally right thing to do. However, should they decide not to do any of that, there is no legal recourse to complain otherwise. You agreed that Gems and in game items have no value, and that you also agree that Anet/NCSoft can’t be held responsible should they take them all away from you.

Again, I’m not discounting the fact that YOU find Gold and Gems and even Time to have personal value, or that an apple has nutritional value, or that Transformers 4 is bad but has a lot of entertainment value. I am discounting your opinions that they hold monetary value.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

Just a thought that occured to me… Smooth Penguin and a few others seem to have latched onto “The User Agreement” as if it were some Kind of trump card.

Cosidering Smooth penguins Legal education I would assume since I have said a few times " it’s a legal position" that would be enough for him to understand what I am saying.

I will assume he does. As for the others trumpeting the " The user agreement" card. All that is, is a defence for Anet..if anything happens to it’s servers that allows for the loss of your gem or gold holdings.

Example.

Player A spends $10,000 in cash to buy Gems. After receiving the gems there through no fault of his own… he loses the gems, whether because there was an ourage… there was a server issue…etc..etc..etc… the sky turned red and the moon rose in the west… the gems went, and are irretrievably lost.

The Player tells Anet.

Anet investigates and reserving the right to not compensate Player A tells him that there is nothing to be done, the gems are gone.

He can say " I Paid $10,000 I want either my gems, or my money."

Now.

Anet MIGHT decide it is best to just pay the guy. Or decide to add the equivalent in gems to his account… but…

The language " Gems have no monetary value and only have entertainment value." is there, so that it can reserve the right to deny Player A’s claim of having a RIGHT to a refund.

They MIGHT grant one, or NOT. That is entirely up to Anet.

THAT is why the User agreement says " Gems have no monetary value."

it’s a legal position, not an economic one. Purely added to the agreement to shield it from lawsuits.

PS: So what I am agreeing to, when I click on the User agreement is that ..Legally, I will Not sue Anet if anything happens to My gems and Gold in game.

I am Not agreeing to some economic nonsense that what has economic monetary value ceases to have it while In My possession even when it does have it in reality.

Now I know how my professors felt when I didn’t understand concepts in class.

The portion of the User Agreement that I quoted basically spells out that everything is property of Anet/NCSoft. We own nothing, but rather are granted the privilege to access the content. You’re paying for entertainment when you “buy Gems”. Even so, the agreement also spells out that Anet/NCSoft has the full legal rights to void any Gems you have, without refund.

This doesn’t mean they act in such a way, as we’ve seen already. When there are issues with Gem Store items, Customer Support works with the players to refund the Gems, or return missing items. That’s the morally right thing to do. However, should they decide not to do any of that, there is no legal recourse to complain otherwise. You agreed that Gems and in game items have no value, and that you also agree that Anet/NCSoft can’t be held responsible should they take them all away from you.

Again, I’m not discounting the fact that YOU find Gold and Gems and even Time to have personal value, or that an apple has nutritional value, or that Transformers 4 is bad but has a lot of entertainment value. I am discounting your opinions that they hold monetary value.

anything that you can sell has monetary value, anet sells gems, and they sell gold. Transformers 4 tickets have a monetary value, because the store sells it. orange salty cheesy sauce has monetary value because they sell it with movie nachos. an apple has monetary value because someone sold it.

so yes, to anet, the players who make gold give them something of monetary value. Unless of course the gem to gold exchange is all a sham, but we have to go by what they said, and they said the gem exchange does not create golds or gems, but trades them.

monetary value does not mean it is money, it means it is worth money through trade.

phys.7689:

Brother Grimm.5176:

So some of you actually believe that GEMS are some sort of commodity that is traded like RL gold? How quaint…..(and seriously delusional).

gems, are just a conversion factor, and means of saying store credit.
you could totally remove gems from the entire process, and call gold to gems gold to store credit.
people need to forget about gems as something special, gems is store credit.

THAT is my point….talking about them being transferred from one player to another like it’s a step in a process that actually happens is just flat out FUD and misrepresents what is the reality of the games economy.

If you state that Anet sells paperclips, they can make them, destroy them, let players trade them but they are NOT a limited resource or something physical that has any use other than to do business with Anet. Thinking of them in any other way is simply inaccurate and taints any other statements that hinge on such assumption.

Brother Grimm.5176:

phys.7689:

Brother Grimm.5176:

So some of you actually believe that GEMS are some sort of commodity that is traded like RL gold? How quaint…..(and seriously delusional).

gems, are just a conversion factor, and means of saying store credit.
you could totally remove gems from the entire process, and call gold to gems gold to store credit.
people need to forget about gems as something special, gems is store credit.

THAT is my point….talking about them being transferred from one player to another like it’s a step in a process that actually happens is just flat out FUD and misrepresents what is the reality of the games economy.

Gems are transferred from one Player to another with Anet being the middle man.

When Player A sells his gold in exchange for gems. And then Player B buys gems with cash, that it then uses to buy Player A’s Gold from Anet, What happened was Gems went from Player B to Player A, gold went from Player A to player B, and Anet stood In the middle making a profit… being intermediary in the deal.

Brother Grimm.5176:

If you state that Anet sells paperclips, they can make them, destroy them, let players trade them but they are NOT a limited resource or something physical that has any use other than to do business with Anet. Thinking of them in any other way is simply inaccurate and taints any other statements that hinge on such assumption.

Just because you assert something, even if fervently, and sincerely believed, does not make it so.

You may choose to not accept it, but the facts are that gems and gold are a valuable commodity for Anet, since Anet is in the business of selling them. Since they have value to Anet, they have value.

Listen, we got multiple pages of the same discussion over and over again here. Phys isn’t going to back down from his interpretation of monetary equivalence. Repeating the same points at each other is getting nowhere.

Let it go.

Behellagh.1468:

Let it go.

*Turns away and slams the door~~~~~~

Nerelith.7360:

There are two types of players that play Gw2:

Paying Customers and Non-paying customers:

1. Paying Customers are players that:

A. Use Real World cash to purchase gems.

B. Use in game gold to purchase gems.

2. non-paying customers do not buy gems, either with real world cash, or gems.

You were SO close to understanding it! Allow me to try and simplify this for you one last time.

Paying customers – one who buys Gems with real money.

Non-paying customers – one who exchanges Gold for Gems.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Yet another thing you misunderstand. While I was a student, I’m going to school to learn. Because I didn’t know concepts, or reasons as to why certain judgments or settlements are made, I would question.

Never thought to question tense usage?

Gold can only be traded for gems that have already been purchased though, which is why gold does not have a monetary value. If you could straight up buy gold from ArenaNet, then yes, gold would also have monetary value for them. It is because the only thing you can buy is gems that gems are the only thing that holds monetary value for ArenaNet. Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems, but it is still only the act of trading real money for gems that creates revenue for ArenaNet and thus only gems have an actual value to ArenaNet.

ok some things got deleted here through other people deletion, so for posterity, ill give the wrap up again. after i broach this point.

monetary value doesnt appear from no where, it still exists through transition. If i can trade A to get B and then i can sell B, A has monetary value, though B.

This is the real key to understanding how to use monetary value. The whole entire point of monetary value, is to allow business people to better understand what is really of value, and what is not of value. As well as to better track/record monetary value. If you think of monetary value as being immune to transition, it a weak tool, that gives you a very vague understanding of various things values to you as a business.

Monetary value exists, so that you dont get vague unquantifiable values like this

Things like gold and gem store items don’t have monetary value, but they do serve to induce more purchasing of gems,

As a business man you want to know what exactly the relationship is between the value of gold and gems . You want to know how they are related to making you money, because this allows you to make better informed business descions, You want to know, whether directly, or through transition, how valuable gold is, in terms of money earning.

By understanding monetary value, and applying it correctly, you can gain a much greater understanding of what is profitable, what is important and what your business is really about.

Your example perfectly shows how not understanding monetary value leads you to false conclusions that are not helpful to understanding your product. You say only gems give anet money. But i will tell you anets real product, the one they need to identify, and increase the value of, in order to make money is not gems. The one they need to market and promote, is not gems, the one that they need to monitor and ensure they have many transactions of, is not gems.

So why this big monetary value debate? because through understanding monetary value, you find the real answer.
Anets product of monetary value, the core to their earning is gem store products. Every gem store product, whether directly or indirectly, will bring them profit. It is the desire for gem store products that drives their revenue.

(this assumes the gold→gem gem→gold trade is effecient)

The more people that desire, and purchase whether by real money, or through gold to gems, the more money will end up in anets pockets.

Their ultimte target for trading of gold→ gems, is not to increase the amount of gold→gem purchases, its to have the exchange rate, that most encourages people to buy gem store items (through gold, or cash) that still allows the gold-gem trading machine to still be working and effecient.

Essentially, if the gold→gem trading machine is effecient, by doubling the gem store sales(gold or cash), they will double thier earnings (actually they can get more if it has to go through the gem exchange machine)

Now this all assumes they have an effecient gem/gold exchange machine, and will consistently realize the potential of the gold/gems they have in stock.

Behellagh.1468:

Listen, we got multiple pages of the same discussion over and over again here. Phys isn’t going to back down from his interpretation of monetary equivalence. Repeating the same points at each other is getting nowhere.

Let it go.

Can i upvote you more than once please?

now just to take a different tact here, you may not understand or believe what i am saying, in that every product they sell brings them revenue whether gold or gems. But the good thing about something that is true, is that you will find many ways that lead you to the same conclusion.

if you agree to each step, you will see why logically this must be the case, regardless of how it happens.

1) every gem store item must be bought with gems

2)the only way to create gems is to pay anet(barring the small % that is given for promotions/in game activities)

3) therefore every single gem store item, must have been paid for in real money by some means or another.

Whether through cash or gems, you are anets valued customer. Anet wants you to spend your gold, or your cash to bring them profits. Ask for things you will be willing to buy with gold, or through cash.

Anet can in fact increase their profits by having a better gold->gem exchange rate, IF it increases the amount of people who want to purchase gem store items.

phys.7689:

3) therefore every single gem store item, must have been paid for in real money by some means or another.

Wrong. Anet created (for free) a large supply of Gems that were deposited into the Gem Exchange at the beginning of the game service. It could very well be that each and every Gold → Gem exchange to date was from the existing pot. Us paying players who exchange Gems for Gold, increases the pot size, and alters the exchange ratio. But just because we’re depositing more Gems into the pot, doesn’t automatically mean that the same Gems are now being given to non-paying players.

To help you understand this mechanic, say Anet deposited 5 million Gold and 1 million Gems into the pot before the game went live. Over the past ~2 years, there was movement of 500,000 Gems out of the pot, and 200,000 Gems put back in via players like me. Not counting the Gems us paying players put back in, there’s still 500,000 free Gems that weren’t touched.

In other words, all Gold exchanged for Gems are free.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

3) therefore every single gem store item, must have been paid for in real money by some means or another.

Wrong. Anet created (for free) a large supply of Gems that were deposited into the Gem Exchange at the beginning of the game service. It could very well be that each and every Gold -> Gem exchange to date was from the existing pot. Us paying players who exchange Gems for Gold, increases the pot size, and alters the exchange ratio. But just because we’re depositing more Gems into the pot, doesn’t automatically mean that the same Gems are now being given to non-paying players.

To help you understand this mechanic, say Anet deposited 5 million Gold and 1 million Gems into the pot before the game went live. Over the past ~2 years, there was movement of 500,000 Gems out of the pot, and 200,000 Gems put back in via players like me. Not counting the Gems us paying players put back in, there’s still 500,000 free Gems that weren’t touched.

In other words, all Gold exchanged for Gems are free.

i will tell you that initial amount deposited is irrelvant if they have a well designed exchange (other than to prevent a spike going over, and allow initial liquidity in the exchange)

If they in fact were giving out free gems, it would largely mean their cash/gem/gold exchange is failing at its job, of creating a real exchange.

Even taking what you say at face value, you would have to provide some evidence that suggests that the initial seed gems is noticeably large in comparison to the amount of gems traded into the system, and you would have to show that the exchange failing to take in cash.

Im pretty sure at some point John smith said the initial seed gems were long since irrelvant in the exchange, but looks like they have removed many posts.

The only way that items purchased with gold, would not bring anet revenue, is if the gold/gem/cash exchange machine is failing. And if it is, its not because they seeded it, its because they didnt design it well. If it is actually well designed, they will recoup more than enough money so that they make the same or more money for every item created in the gemstore.
the exchange fee, should be more than enough to cover any calculation errors, and if well designed, would be pure profit.

gem store items are no more free, than movie tickets are free when people pay for thier friends/dates/children.

every person who buys products with gold/cash is a valued customer, and is contributing to anets wealth.

Their desire for these items is the driving force, and the root of the monetary value of the entire business model. (aside from initial sales, and royalties)

the more items bought with via any means, the more money they make.

unless, the gem/gold/cash exchange is currently failing. Which JS implied is not the case.

edit, and btw, based on the sales figures from earnings reports, assuming even half of the money earned wasnt through box sales after the first 2 initial quarters, the amount of gems created through cash would probably be in the 100s of millions if not billions

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

To counter this whole post, I would like you to understand that the Gem Exchange brings in no money. Players like me bring in money by purchasing Gems. The reason why the exchange rates are so high at the moment, is because us paying players aren’t exchanging as much as non-paying players. The Gem Exchange is working efficiently and as intended.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

To counter this whole post, I would like you to understand that the Gem Exchange brings in no money. Players like me bring in money by purchasing Gems. The reason why the exchange rates are so high at the moment, is because us paying players aren’t exchanging as much as non-paying players. The Gem Exchange is working efficiently and as intended.

the purpose of the exchange is to allow people to trade gold and gems.

the reason for its existence within this monetary machine is to transfer the desire and work of gold earning players towards gem store items, into real money.

Essentially allowing players with desire, and no money to still be monetizable by allowing them to trade in game effort/time with people who have and are willing to spend money for their ingame time and money.

the exchange rate being high isnt really that relvant to the system, other than how it influences how many gem store items are sold.
the rate essentially cancels out.
whether cash player gets 100000 gold for a dollar, or 1 gold for a dollar, the return to anet is still 1 dollar.

and what actually gets that dollar is the fact that some player wanted some gem store item and was willing to work for it. either by working at their job, or working at playing the game for someone else willing to pay anet money.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

To counter this whole post, I would like you to understand that the Gem Exchange brings in no money. Players like me bring in money by purchasing Gems. The reason why the exchange rates are so high at the moment, is because us paying players aren’t exchanging as much as non-paying players. The Gem Exchange is working efficiently and as intended.

the purpose of the exchange is to allow people to trade gold and gems.

the reason for its existence within this monetary machine is to transfer the desire and work of gold earning players towards gem store items, into real money.

Essentially allowing players with desire, and no money to still be monetizable by allowing them to trade in game effort/time with people who have and are willing to spend money for their ingame time and money.

the exchange rate being high isnt really that relvant to the system, other than how it influences how many gem store items are sold.
the rate essentially cancels out.
whether cash player gets 100000 gold for a dollar, or 1 gold for a dollar, the return to anet is still 1 dollar.

and what actually gets that dollar is the fact that some player wanted some gem store item and was willing to work for it. either by working at their job, or working at playing the game for someone else willing to pay anet money.

Wrong again mate, but not on the core purpose of the Gem Exchange. Yes this tool allows non-paying players to access microtransactions they could otherwise not afford, or had no intention of using real money to obtain. Let’s dive into the flaws of your argument.

Non-paying players bring no money into the game, outside of the initial box price. They trade their in game efforts (which have no monetary value) with virtual extras. Gems in the pot of the exchange were already there in the beginning. Players who exchange Gold for Gems got them for free. They bring no additional revenue. This is a simple business principal.

For example, two people walk into a store. One has cash, while the other has a coupon for free merchandise. If the person with cash makes a purchase, only he is actually bringing in revenue to the business. With your though process, you’re thinking that the person with the coupon is making the store money too. This is where your ideas are flawed.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

To counter this whole post, I would like you to understand that the Gem Exchange brings in no money. Players like me bring in money by purchasing Gems. The reason why the exchange rates are so high at the moment, is because us paying players aren’t exchanging as much as non-paying players. The Gem Exchange is working efficiently and as intended.

the purpose of the exchange is to allow people to trade gold and gems.

the reason for its existence within this monetary machine is to transfer the desire and work of gold earning players towards gem store items, into real money.

Essentially allowing players with desire, and no money to still be monetizable by allowing them to trade in game effort/time with people who have and are willing to spend money for their ingame time and money.

the exchange rate being high isnt really that relvant to the system, other than how it influences how many gem store items are sold.
the rate essentially cancels out.
whether cash player gets 100000 gold for a dollar, or 1 gold for a dollar, the return to anet is still 1 dollar.

and what actually gets that dollar is the fact that some player wanted some gem store item and was willing to work for it. either by working at their job, or working at playing the game for someone else willing to pay anet money.

Wrong again mate, but not on the core purpose of the Gem Exchange. Yes this tool allows non-paying players to access microtransactions they could otherwise not afford, or had no intention of using real money to obtain. Let’s dive into the flaws of your argument.

Non-paying players bring no money into the game, outside of the initial box price. They trade their in game efforts (which have no monetary value) with virtual extras. Gems in the pot of the exchange were already there in the beginning. Players who exchange Gold for Gems got them for free. They bring no additional revenue. This is a simple business principal.

For example, two people walk into a store. One has cash, while the other has a coupon for free merchandise. If the person with cash makes a purchase, only he is actually bringing in revenue to the business. With your though process, you’re thinking that the person with the coupon is making the store money too. This is where your ideas are flawed.

See your example is where you miss the point.
1 guy buys the item with cash
the other guy gets someone else to buy the item for him in exchange for mowing his lawn.

In this case both the guy who buys with cash, and the guy who mows someones lawn to get the other person to buy the item are valuable customers.

anet is even more intelligent because they set up a system for people to trade thier desire to do work for someone else, into more profit than if they set it up themselves.

a coupon user would be the guy who went to pax and got a free 100 gem card.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

~~~ snip ~~~

To counter this whole post, I would like you to understand that the Gem Exchange brings in no money. Players like me bring in money by purchasing Gems. The reason why the exchange rates are so high at the moment, is because us paying players aren’t exchanging as much as non-paying players. The Gem Exchange is working efficiently and as intended.

the purpose of the exchange is to allow people to trade gold and gems.

the reason for its existence within this monetary machine is to transfer the desire and work of gold earning players towards gem store items, into real money.

Essentially allowing players with desire, and no money to still be monetizable by allowing them to trade in game effort/time with people who have and are willing to spend money for their ingame time and money.

the exchange rate being high isnt really that relvant to the system, other than how it influences how many gem store items are sold.
the rate essentially cancels out.
whether cash player gets 100000 gold for a dollar, or 1 gold for a dollar, the return to anet is still 1 dollar.

and what actually gets that dollar is the fact that some player wanted some gem store item and was willing to work for it. either by working at their job, or working at playing the game for someone else willing to pay anet money.

Wrong again mate, but not on the core purpose of the Gem Exchange. Yes this tool allows non-paying players to access microtransactions they could otherwise not afford, or had no intention of using real money to obtain. Let’s dive into the flaws of your argument.

Non-paying players bring no money into the game, outside of the initial box price. They trade their in game efforts (which have no monetary value) with virtual extras. Gems in the pot of the exchange were already there in the beginning. Players who exchange Gold for Gems got them for free. They bring no additional revenue. This is a simple business principal.

For example, two people walk into a store. One has cash, while the other has a coupon for free merchandise. If the person with cash makes a purchase, only he is actually bringing in revenue to the business. With your though process, you’re thinking that the person with the coupon is making the store money too. This is where your ideas are flawed.

See your example is where you miss the point.
1 guy buys the item with cash
the other guy gets someone else to buy the item for him in exchange for mowing his lawn.

In this case both the guy who buys with cash, and the guy who mows someones lawn to get the other person to buy the item are valuable customers.

anet is even more intelligent because they set up a system for people to trade thier desire to do work for someone else, into more profit than if they set it up themselves.

a coupon user would be the guy who went to pax and got a free 100 gem card.

1) Yes we are all valuable customers. But only the paying players bring in revenue.

2) Yes the Gem Exchange is a brilliant tool that brings in revenue for Anet/NCSoft, from players like me who purchase Gems with real money.

3) Someone trading their time for in-game items does not help a company to profit. Someone trading their cash for in-game items does.

4) And yes, the guy who got the 100 Gems got it for free. Thus no revenue is generated from him.