Guild Wars 2

Suffice to say, this past week has been a paradise for flippers. The spreads in certain markets have reached 600, 700, even 2500% on items that still move with good velocorty. In fact, at the moment my earnings are limited solely by the number of bids I can put in, before I either get bored or tired. Now, this will likely slow down over the coming weeks, but it may not, given changes to the game post-patch.

So I ask, why am I beginning to feel guilty?

I think it is because I’m making gold off of people who a) don’t understand the TP; b) are new to the game; c) are confused about game mexhanics; or d) simply dont care. Because really, why would someone fill my (many) 3s buy orders when the lowest sell orders are at 50s, 60s, or even 1g unless they are unaware or ambivalent?

I’m assuming that this is one of the major issues people have with the TP. Speculating is a bit different, but in terms of flipping, especially on slower moving items, we are really just taking advantage of others’ inattentiveness (at best), or misunderstanding and obliviousness (at worst).

Now, will I stop flipping (especially in such a lucrative climate)? Not sure. But I do see a bit of a moral quandry in this activity.

Short answer: you shouldn’t. Not utilizing the TP much right now due to other time consuming in game activities, so I am not answering your question as a fellow flipper. If people auto-sell without at least taking 2 seconds to look you shouldn’t fell bad. Microwave generation, if they wanted their cash right now versus potnetially making more by listing its up to them to choose to short change themselves. Good hunting!

Don’t feel bad. You aren’t doing anything wrong.

If people don’t like the price you are offering/ selling an item at, they simply won’t buy or sell.

This is why the tp should have been designed to have all bought items be account bound from the beginning.

roamzero.9486:

This is why the tp should have been designed to have all bought items be account bound from the beginning.

John Smith.4610:

Seriously though, I’ve never seen a compelling argument that making TP items account bound would be anything but devastatingly bad for this game and its players. There are of course many biases in any setting, especially a forum setting, but you know that my goal is to make the best possible game.

You should feel bad. Think of all the fake families who will lose their fake homes and the fake children who go to their fake beds hungry every night because you stole the fake money from the fake people buying and selling fake goods for fake money.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Well hopefully all of your in-game wealth buys you lots of things that make your gaming experience fun. If its not, then feel bad for wasting your time on this rather than on something more enjoyable or meaningful. If it is, then all the more power to you.

I’ve never played the TP market, but I don’t see anything to feel bad for. If people are selling to the lowest bidder and don’t feel they’re getting enough money back, they can always set their own prices. Whether they don’t understand or don’t care, there’s really nothing you can do to educate them about it.

tolunart.2095:

You should feel bad. Think of all the fake families who will lose their fake homes and the fake children who go to their fake beds hungry every night because you stole the fake money from the fake people buying and selling fake goods for fake money.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

I stand corrected by the beautiful truth of this argument. You’re a monster, Bunda.

Look for the first ghost when the bell tolls one~!

Think of it this way: To buy items you had to increase the current buy order price to outbid the previous buy order. To sell them, you had to undercut the other sellers. Bringing the prices closer together.

Bringing the prices together is good for everyone else. Especially those who sell to buy orders

tolunart.2095:

You should feel bad. Think of all the fake families who will lose their fake homes and the fake children who go to their fake beds hungry every night because you stole the fake money from the fake people buying and selling fake goods for fake money.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Great response. I am of course quite ashamed. Perhaps I’ll buy myself a legendary or some aetherblade skins to cheer up.

I was of course being melodramatic in the initial post, but my point was just that most flipping profits are made off of uninformed players. I mean, so be it, but it just kind of sucks that the best way to make gold is through the uninformed actions of other players.

Every player has the same opportunity to research the markets and set their own prices.

Way back when I noticed a lot of blue and green gear was listed for sale on the TP at just above vendor price, the minimum sell order value set by Anet. It doesn’t take much thought to realize that (vendor price + 1c) – 15% is selling at a loss compared to simply selling the item to a vendor.

I wouldn’t list anything for sale on the TP or sell to a buy order unless it gave me more money than simply vendoring the item. But a lot of people made a decision to specifically throw money away by doing this.

So it doesn’t bother me at all to take a little of the play money they don’t care about and put it in my virtual pocket.

Why on earth will you feel bad?

If a player is too dumb or not motivated enough to make more money through the TP then that’s their problem and deserve to be taken advantaged of. Its also good they nerfed the champ boxes..

I do wonder when this period will end though. Better flip all you can now guys

lol this thread is funny, the people in this subforum in general feel its their duty to exploit any weakness, so you will find very few people here who feel its dirty

phys.7689:

lol this thread is funny, the people in this subforum in general feel its their duty to exploit any weakness, so you will find very few people here who feel its dirty

Players who choose for whatever reason not to try to get the most for an item they are selling can’t be “exploited”.

In the long run, no. This is just a game, and it’s not really hurting anyone, but I do understand where the OP is coming from. I once read an article by a former Las Vegas blackjack dealer who said he ultimately had to get out of the business. Yes, people were sitting down at the tables and gambling of their own free will, but he saw enough first timers get swept up in the emotion and gamble more than they could afford to lose, enough compulsive gamblers dropping money that should have gone to their mortgage or bills, or parents gambling away their children’s college funds. He saw relationships destroyed, lives ruined, and even though it was of their own volition, he knew he was still a part of the system that made it happen. He ultimately couldn’t live with that and got out.

Agree with OP.

Nowaday you hear daily at least 3-4 map chat about the broken economy…..
That translates in people quitting.

You get gold on people leaving in the end.
Macroeconomy is still good…even i know people with 30.000 golds, an eternity and much more….

Its a game true..the game is not TP Tycoon, so playing it will just ruin the game expecially with nobody taking balanced actions.

TL:DR You hurt the game…if only anet made a survey on uninstalls i bet economy would pop out quite a lot…..

Wanze.8410:

roamzero.9486:

This is why the tp should have been designed to have all bought items be account bound from the beginning.

John Smith.4610:

Seriously though, I’ve never seen a compelling argument that making TP items account bound would be anything but devastatingly bad for this game and its players. There are of course many biases in any setting, especially a forum setting, but you know that my goal is to make the best possible game.

I’ve never seen Mr. Smith outline exactly why account bound TP would be “devastatingly” bad for the game and its players either.

Tbh I’m one of the lazy players too when it comes to certain things. When I want a specific item it might happen that I buy it outright even if I know the buy order would fill within the next 10 Minutes, just because I’m impatient.
This said I’m also flipping a decent amount of things since last year and at the moment even buying instantly and immediately selling afterwards yields profits at certain markets because people tend to think “oh no, I’ll never sell for this much, I’ll list it for half of it” (all coming from the price changes since the update went live)

I probably fall into the “don’t care/ambivalent” category, myself.

There will be a lot of times when I’m out doing my dailys and run across a resource (tree/plant/ore) that I’ll go ahead and hit with my unlimited gathering tools, or I’ll pick up a bunch of mats from kills/salvaging.. Whenever my backpack fills up, or whenever I’m done with that character for the day, I’ll do the “deposit all collectibles”, and whatever is left over gets sold on the TP generally for whatever the “Sell Now” price is.

Just pure laziness on my part to be honest. I’ve got 3 of the collection expanders, so anything over 1,000 of a resource I just don’t have the room to store, and I just don’t really care about losing a couple of silver here or there futzing around with selling 30 leftover mithril ore between the “sell now” price of 27c and the “lowest price” of 32c or whatever (or whatever mat I happen to have an excess of).

Now, if I’m selling a whole stack (or multiple stacks) of something, I’ll go to the trouble of looking up the current “Daily Average” price on Spidy, and put it up at something close to that.. But if it’s just a couple of leftover items, I just basically don’t care what they sell for.

So if you’re making money on me (and depending on what you’re flipping, you might be), knock yerself out.

Every single copper you make on the TP buys you a tiny piece of a ticket to Hell.

Lampshade.7569:

Every single copper you make on the TP buys you a tiny piece of a ticket to Hell.

Oh good, I kind of like hell.

SuKHoi.2063:

Lampshade.7569:

Every single copper you make on the TP buys you a tiny piece of a ticket to Hell.

Oh good, I kind of like hell.

They throw the best parties there.

Why you aren’t doing anything bad and actually help the economy:

1. Flipping is a huge gold sink

2. If people are slling or buying the item to this price it’s noones fault. It’s their decision. If you wouldn’t buy it, who would?

3. You puh prices into equilibrium

4. You make the margin smaller

5. You provide a service for people who want to buy or sell an item immediately. You are the one who takes the “risk” of buy orders and sell listings.

6. The TP doesn’t create money out of thin air. it’s just exchanging gold (minus taxes). You are not introducing more money in the economy – which would be bad.

tolunart.2095:

SuKHoi.2063:

Lampshade.7569:

Every single copper you make on the TP buys you a tiny piece of a ticket to Hell.

Oh good, I kind of like hell.

They throw the best parties there.

Yeah, and it has the best precursor droprates.

roamzero.9486:

This is why the tp should have been designed to have all bought items be account bound from the beginning.

This is a horrible idea.

A more constructive idea would be some way to communicate to participants the volume of transactions in a given market; I don’t know an easy way to find this data. I’m generally too lazy to bother finding markets where flipping works; there’d be more participants and a smaller spread (making things a bit worse for flippers, but spreading wealth as it were) if it was more obvious where this works.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with flipping in a market with a large spread; it makes prices better for those who are clueless or not paying attention.

roamzero.9486:

I’ve never seen Mr. Smith outline exactly why account bound TP would be “devastatingly” bad for the game and its players either.

Actually, he has. Flippers reduce the spread between buy and sell — which improves matters for casual market participants. There are lots of people who are impatient about buying and selling; flippers (and speculators, in a different context) provide liquidity.

There is a reason why stock markets have market makers — flippers fulfill this role. If you’re not familiar with this, here’s a random resource from 5s of searching, which looks like it has some of the relevant details: http://www.investopedia.com/university/electronictrading/trading3.asp

WTS 3 tickets to hell!

OFFER

roamzero.9486:

Wanze.8410:

roamzero.9486:

This is why the tp should have been designed to have all bought items be account bound from the beginning.

John Smith.4610:

Seriously though, I’ve never seen a compelling argument that making TP items account bound would be anything but devastatingly bad for this game and its players. There are of course many biases in any setting, especially a forum setting, but you know that my goal is to make the best possible game.

I’ve never seen Mr. Smith outline exactly why account bound TP would be “devastatingly” bad for the game and its players either.

Lets assume everything you buy on the tp is account bound and this eliminates flippers and speculators from the game (which it wouldnt because they can still alter the item by crafting or salvaging it).
What would happen to items, whose supply is higher than demand? Their prices would inevitably go down to vendor value. Is that something you want and think is beneficial to the game?
Flippers, and especially speculators, buy items that are not in demand right now and give you more value for it than the vendor. By doing this, they stabilize the economy in general by working as a gold sink and spreading their gold to other players.
By conserving the item (selling to vendor would destroy the item and create new gold, pushing inflation), he keeps supply high, which counters price spikes, once the item goes into demand again.

Curse Drew.8679:

WTS 3 tickets to hell!

OFFER

1/2 a soul. My wife owns the other half.

People on trains or in WvW may find that selling quickly to empty bags is better profit and more conducive to their playstyle than spending 5-10 seconds per item to make sure they get a better price. Sometimes this stuff just gets shoved into a vendor dropped in the field because getting a couple gold and saving a tower is better than getting an extra handful of silver and losing the tower.

Most people will quit the game with gold to spare so there’s no point in feeling bad or calling people dumb/lazy or “microwave generation” etc.

neonreaper.4805:

People on trains or in WvW may find that selling quickly to empty bags is better profit and more conducive to their playstyle than spending 5-10 seconds per item to make sure they get a better price. Sometimes this stuff just gets shoved into a vendor dropped in the field because getting a couple gold and saving a tower is better than getting an extra handful of silver and losing the tower.

Most people will quit the game with gold to spare so there’s no point in feeling bad or calling people dumb/lazy or “microwave generation” etc.

Thats perfectly fine if people sell their stuff to vendors or buy orders (it takes as much time to match lowest listing as it takes to sell to to highest bid), as long as they dont come to the forums and complain that they dont get enough gold for their loot and others do, while flipping their items.

Wanze.8410:

neonreaper.4805:

People on trains or in WvW may find that selling quickly to empty bags is better profit and more conducive to their playstyle than spending 5-10 seconds per item to make sure they get a better price. Sometimes this stuff just gets shoved into a vendor dropped in the field because getting a couple gold and saving a tower is better than getting an extra handful of silver and losing the tower.

Most people will quit the game with gold to spare so there’s no point in feeling bad or calling people dumb/lazy or “microwave generation” etc.

Thats perfectly fine if people sell their stuff to vendors or buy orders (it takes as much time to match lowest listing as it takes to sell to to highest bid), as long as they dont come to the forums and complain that they dont get enough gold for their loot and others do, while flipping their items.

But this does illustrate a potential change — allow a default in the BLTC screen which sets a price splitting the difference between current buy & sell prices orders. I suspect that this would make the buy and sell prices fluctuate more, and it would discourage flippers (who take the place of market makers — without any other form of market maker, I do think flipping is important) since it would tend to reduce the spread. So I’m not sure it would be a net benefit once the secondary effects are considered. But it’s something I would usually have used, before I understood the velocity for most markets, and it might improve the prices most market participants get for their transactions.

linuxotaku.4731:

Actually, he has. Flippers reduce the spread between buy and sell — which improves matters for casual market participants. There are lots of people who are impatient about buying and selling; flippers (and speculators, in a different context) provide liquidity.

Wanze.8410:

Lets assume everything you buy on the tp is account bound and this eliminates flippers and speculators from the game (which it wouldnt because they can still alter the item by crafting or salvaging it).
What would happen to items, whose supply is higher than demand? Their prices would inevitably go down to vendor value. Is that something you want and think is beneficial to the game?

If the downside to an account bound tp is slower buying/selling and cheap goods and slight vendor inflation, that doesn’t sound ‘devastating’ to me. I could see people preferring it that way. I know I had a fun time trying out the cheap runes/sigils after the patch hit, and Im more likely to experiment on builds if the cost is low. I could see an issue emerging with players that “resource farm” not being able to get immediate liquidity, but the only such farm that exists in the game is Karka Shell farming and on the whole is completely unviable thanks to DR mechanics.

roamzero.9486:

linuxotaku.4731:

Actually, he has. Flippers reduce the spread between buy and sell — which improves matters for casual market participants. There are lots of people who are impatient about buying and selling; flippers (and speculators, in a different context) provide liquidity.

Wanze.8410:

Lets assume everything you buy on the tp is account bound and this eliminates flippers and speculators from the game (which it wouldnt because they can still alter the item by crafting or salvaging it).
What would happen to items, whose supply is higher than demand? Their prices would inevitably go down to vendor value. Is that something you want and think is beneficial to the game?

If the downside to an account bound tp is slower buying/selling and cheap goods and slight vendor inflation, that doesn’t sound ‘devastating’ to me. I could see people preferring it that way.

Unfortunately thats not only the only downside. because it would also mean higher price spikes for in demand goods and longer times for those in demand items to get into equilibrium again. It would make the whole market more volatile and still susceptible to high profits through crafting, salvaging, opening containers, etc.

Wanze.8410:

roamzero.9486:

linuxotaku.4731:

Actually, he has. Flippers reduce the spread between buy and sell — which improves matters for casual market participants. There are lots of people who are impatient about buying and selling; flippers (and speculators, in a different context) provide liquidity.

Wanze.8410:

Lets assume everything you buy on the tp is account bound and this eliminates flippers and speculators from the game (which it wouldnt because they can still alter the item by crafting or salvaging it).
What would happen to items, whose supply is higher than demand? Their prices would inevitably go down to vendor value. Is that something you want and think is beneficial to the game?

If the downside to an account bound tp is slower buying/selling and cheap goods and slight vendor inflation, that doesn’t sound ‘devastating’ to me. I could see people preferring it that way.

Unfortunately thats not only the only downside. because it would also mean higher price spikes for in demand goods and longer times for those in demand items to get into equilibrium again. It would make the whole market more volatile and still susceptible to high profits through crafting, salvaging, opening containers, etc.

This is exactly the issue. Encouraging participation of market makers means there’s a buffer of demand (when prices fall too low, they’re willing to buy) and supply (when prices rise too high, they’re willing to sell). Take away that buffer and we would see more spikes — or situations where it’s simply impossible to get the item that’s currently in demand.

Using the example of Karka Shells. I purchased a fair number of these (more than I had a use for at the time — I think about 20 stacks) during the events in Southsun — when there was a glut of them on the market. I wouldn’t have purchased as many if they’d all become account bound, and some of the people who got these as drops would have sold them to the vendor — removing them from the game.

Somewhat later, the glut of supply dried up, and I sold mine (over time, some for 2s, some for 3s, some for 6-9s); I think there were spikes in demand due to agony infusions and crafting. The fact that I was able to speculate on these meant that overall prices improved for other market participants (sellers got better prices, buyers got better prices) — though I also made some profit on it.

Speculation like that doesn’t change the fact that these now cost much more than during the Lost Shores event — we don’t create supply by speculating — but it meant that the rise in price was more gradual.

tolunart.2095:

You should feel bad. Think of all the fake families who will lose their fake homes and the fake children who go to their fake beds hungry every night because you stole the fake money from the fake people buying and selling fake goods for fake money.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

YAH! THINK OF THE FAKE CHILDREN!

In Guild Wars 1 all what I was doing was trading but it was just greed, I wasn’t even enjoying this, in 2 I don’t care about gold and buying something not looking at the price, for gold there’s an insignificant % of progress you can obtain in game that’s why I don’t bother, I lost hundreds of gold on TP trading by buying random items in hope to sell higher but they dropped to pennies, some people here will cry by losing even 1 gold having thousands.

If you’re feeling guilty, OP, you could alleviate some of it and balance out your karma by sharing tips with those of us who haven’t the gaming time and/or savvy to make money, even on the TP.

I am a scientist. That’s right, I go to work everyday and do science.

Every tip you give me translates into less time I spend fumbling around the TP and websites and more time in the lab, saving babies and hot women from bad, bad germs.

Support babies and hot women. Give me some pointers.

What items can you possibly buy for 3-4 s and instantly sell for 50-60 s? Is this a troll thread?

Celtic Lady.3729:

What items can you possibly buy for 3-4 s and instantly sell for 50-60 s? Is this a troll thread?

Simply put, yes, it is.

Facepunch.5710:

If you’re feeling guilty, OP, you could alleviate some of it and balance out your karma by sharing tips with those of us who haven’t the gaming time and/or savvy to make money, even on the TP.

I am a scientist. That’s right, I go to work everyday and do science.

Every tip you give me translates into less time I spend fumbling around the TP and websites and more time in the lab, saving babies and hot women from bad, bad germs.

Support babies and hot women. Give me some pointers.

I like this answer. It’s funny. Here, have a bone! I found it on reddit.

I’ve been filling a LOT of buy orders recently since I’ve already made a profit and it’s not worth the additional risk for me to wait for a sale.

Sure I might lose some coin but overall it doesn’t really ruffle my feathers. Leave some profit for the other guy, or so they say. I think.

If the flipper is making a profit off me, good for him/her, they deserve it by providing liquidity for my stuff aha

Celtic Lady.3729:

What items can you possibly buy for 3-4 s and instantly sell for 50-60 s? Is this a troll thread?

There are a number of crafting materials you can do this with, simply because people don’t pay attention/put in buy-orders themselves.

A fair number of ancient/iron/etc. items have HUGE flip potential(I’ve seen anywhere from 20s-50s at times), often with VERY low initial investment(~<10s).

Celtic Lady.3729:

What items can you possibly buy for 3-4 s and instantly sell for 50-60 s? Is this a troll thread?

No troll. The items I was initially referring to have narrowed a little bit, but there are still many with buy orders ~10s and asks at between 45 and 90s. Seriously, spend 15 min looking through the different BLTP categories at various rarities (mahor hint) and you’ll find them soon enough.

If you want a bigger hint, think about the changes from the recent patch. I’m trying to be pretty thick here without giving out exact items/categories. But spend time looking and you’ll find flippable items everywhere.

somsom.5201:

Celtic Lady.3729:

What items can you possibly buy for 3-4 s and instantly sell for 50-60 s? Is this a troll thread?

There are a number of crafting materials you can do this with, simply because people don’t pay attention/put in buy-orders themselves.

A fair number of ancient/iron/etc. items have HUGE flip potential(I’ve seen anywhere from 20s-50s at times), often with VERY low initial investment(~<10s).

I tried this glorious flipping method for a test on various items and it’s simply impossible if you’re not a no-life sitting there all day bidding with other no-lifes every profitable item, it’s a boring waste of time and every legitimate way by flipping is just investing and waiting for the price to rise.

Psychol.5783:

somsom.5201:

Celtic Lady.3729:

What items can you possibly buy for 3-4 s and instantly sell for 50-60 s? Is this a troll thread?

There are a number of crafting materials you can do this with, simply because people don’t pay attention/put in buy-orders themselves.

A fair number of ancient/iron/etc. items have HUGE flip potential(I’ve seen anywhere from 20s-50s at times), often with VERY low initial investment(~<10s).

I tried this glorious flipping method for a test on various items and it’s simply impossible if you’re not a no-life sitting there all day bidding with other no-lifes every profitable item, it’s a boring waste of time and every legitimate way by flipping is just investing and waiting for the price to rise.

“No-lifes”… rather dramatic. The truth is you don’t need to sit there “all day bidding”; I put about 1 hour total in a day and can make more during that time than running dungeons or anything else. Also, I enjoy using the TP for profit in this way, but that’s something that’s obviously going to vary from person to person. If you try to force yourself to play the TP, you’ll probably wind up with only meager returns or losses.

Flipping/Long-term investing in this game is just like any other method for acquiring gold… it will only prove to be profitable if you’re consistent. Other than spikes due to patches, etc., don’t expect to make quick/easy profits immediately.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with flipping. I found it dreadfully boring sometimes but yes it can be quite profitable. Maybe if they added casino noises when u withdraw gold from the trading post it would be more fun.