Guild Wars 2

I had this idea floating in my head. Basically, guild banks will be used as a workaround for two players trading with one another. The guild bank owner will neither be the buyer or the seller. The guild bank owner will function as an overseer for the two players, and will be compensated by a transaction fee.

So the buyer and seller cannot withdraw anything from the guild bank, but they are allowed to deposit gold and inventory to it. Buyer will deposit the agreed amount in the bank, and the seller will deposit the items in the bank. Once everything is agreed upon, the guild bank owner will mail the item to the buyer and give bank access to the seller, so the seller can withdraw the gold. Once everything is done, guild bank owner kicks the two players from the guild.

Thoughts? Would this be considered an exploit?

It’s not an exploit, but requires trust in a third party.

The two parties conducting the trade probably barely trust each other given the number of scams going on in the game, so to bring yet another person into the trade and blindly place both parties trust into this third person….I know I wouldn’t do it.

What’s to stop this third party from building up a good reputation with small trades, then when someone decides to use them for….let’s say….a big transfer, like Dusk…..he screws BOTH players. This third party then ends up with Dusk AND the 600 or so gold from the trade. Anet won’t do anything about it either because the ONLY approved method of trade is through the Black Lion Trading Company.

It’s not an exploit, just like how trading game items through mail is not considered an exploit.

Will Arenanet compensate you if things go bad? Of course not. that’s the risk.

Best way to combat this is to get a well-known player on a reputable guild to act as a middleman. Screenshot the agreement, of course.

Yeah, this has come up with other approaches, and ANet (I believe) has indicated that it’s not an exploit, but warns against it since there is significantly higher risk of a scam. I’m kind of curious why you feel you need to work around the TP?

Charismatic Harm.9683:

It’s not an exploit, but requires trust in a third party.

The two parties conducting the trade probably barely trust each other given the number of scams going on in the game, so to bring yet another person into the trade and blindly place both parties trust into this third person….I know I wouldn’t do it.

What’s to stop this third party from building up a good reputation with small trades, then when someone decides to use them for….let’s say….a big transfer, like Dusk…..he screws BOTH players. This third party then ends up with Dusk AND the 600 or so gold from the trade. Anet won’t do anything about it either because the ONLY approved method of trade is through the Black Lion Trading Company.

Good point, especially on the large transaction bit. This might work for bulk items instead of single, high-priced items.

JaironKalach.4938:

Yeah, this has come up with other approaches, and ANet (I believe) has indicated that it’s not an exploit, but warns against it since there is significantly higher risk of a scam. I’m kind of curious why you feel you need to work around the TP?

The idea came when someone was offering to sell their goods in map chat. Now the idea is put to rest.

As Charismatic Harm points out, such a system could work based on reputation, but there’s always the risk that such a reputation was simply gained for the purpose of making “the big haul” on a high value item. A free dusk would certainly be compelling enough for someone to put the effort into building the reputation required. With how slowly and unevenly information transfers, it’s plausible they could get away with it multiple times before people believed the people who were scammed.

Syeria.4812:

As Charismatic Harm points out, such a system could work based on reputation, but there’s always the risk that such a reputation was simply gained for the purpose of making “the big haul” on a high value item. A free dusk would certainly be compelling enough for someone to put the effort into building the reputation required. With how slowly and unevenly information transfers, it’s plausible they could get away with it multiple times before people believed the people who were scammed.

Since we have gw2lfg.com, dragon-timer website and spidy.com, why not have a website that rates accounts/players for their reliability and trustworthiness with off-TP trades? Something like Yelp.

Although this could be manipulated with ghost accounts by rating a scammer in the website, unless a captcha is integrated in the rating system.

I really don’t understand how circunveing the TP is that worth it, because it clearly isn’t.

Dan.8709:

I really don’t understand how circunveing the TP is that worth it, because it clearly isn’t.

For high value items I can see why certain people would want to circumvent the TP. Since Dusk is always the example, I’ll use it here:

Currently (according to spidy, I’m not in game right now) Dusk is 619g for buy instantly with a max bid of 560g. If I have a Dusk and want to sell it, I could fill that 560g order, but I will pay a 23g listing fee and 56g transaction fee by using the TP. Because of that, I net approximately 480g from that sale, rather than the 560g it’s going for. Now if I have a way to circumvent the TP, I would be able to sell it for 520g to someone on the gray market (which is not an exploit, but Anet advises against it and absolutely will not help you if you are scammed). At 520g, as the seller I make 40g more than I would have on the TP and the buyer saves 40g off the purchase price.

The OP was suggesting a system that essentially introduces a middleman who controls the exchange. But the risk here is that at some point the middleman may actually hold both the Dusk and the 520g. He could decide that he doesn’t care about his reputation and steal both the item and the gold, and walk away with about 1000g. He might even be able to get away with it more than once (by having friends denounce the people scammed and claim they’re just making it up and trying to reverse scam him, or simply because information travels slowly and people might not find out others were scammed for several days).

I know that, but I deem the risk way too high for it wo be worth it, so I really wouldn’t trust any kind of gray market in this game.

Trust issues and scamming aside, this would only work on a small scale. Currently guild mechanics limit this in a combination of ways.

• Guild progress does not carry across servers.
  So say you’re in a guild on server A and someone else joins your guild on server B. Server B guild doesn’t have a guild bank because the progress doesn’t carry over. And even if it does, I’m unsure if that bank would contain the same items. (I highly doubt it)
• Guesting earns influence for and uses the guild of the home server, not the guest server. So even if two people were to guest onto your server to make a transaction, they’d be using their home server’s version of your guild (the undeveloped guild), and not your server’s version of your guild.

All in all, it limits the amount of business and profit such an endeavor could reel in. Combine that with general distrust and you have to ask yourself if its worth the trouble to supply such services.

Syeria.4812:

As Charismatic Harm points out, such a system could work based on reputation, but there’s always the risk that such a reputation was simply gained for the purpose of making “the big haul” on a high value item. A free dusk would certainly be compelling enough for someone to put the effort into building the reputation required. With how slowly and unevenly information transfers, it’s plausible they could get away with it multiple times before people believed the people who were scammed.

A free dusk is worthless when you get banned for scamming.

nastyjman.8207:

Syeria.4812:

As Charismatic Harm points out, such a system could work based on reputation, but there’s always the risk that such a reputation was simply gained for the purpose of making “the big haul” on a high value item. A free dusk would certainly be compelling enough for someone to put the effort into building the reputation required. With how slowly and unevenly information transfers, it’s plausible they could get away with it multiple times before people believed the people who were scammed.

Since we have gw2lfg.com, dragon-timer website and spidy.com, why not have a website that rates accounts/players for their reliability and trustworthiness with off-TP trades? Something like Yelp.

Although this could be manipulated with ghost accounts by rating a scammer in the website, unless a captcha is integrated in the rating system.

You could have a verification system which requires a mail and response.

Esplen.3940:

You could have a verification system which requires a mail and response.

How would this work? Would it also be a service the 3rd party would provide? Is it just something that shows both players acknowledge the trade? Would it be something that Anet programs in?

I can’t see Anet adding ANY kind of system that allows for circumnavigation of the Trading Post….especially when the Trading Post is secure already. Also, the TP is a MAJOR gold sink that is sorely needed in this game. I see many players complaining about inflation and gold sinks are the primary way to combat it (but this is a topic for a different thread).

The bottom line is that any trading outside of the Trading Post will have a negative effect on the game as a whole….even if it looks good in the short run for the players by saving them money on fees, it will be bad for the players in the long run by making everything more expensive. Those Trading Post fees are a necessary evil to combat inflation in the game….along with repair costs, travel fees, etc. The game actually needs MORE of them….not ways to work around the already existing ones.

Vol.5241:

Syeria.4812:

As Charismatic Harm points out, such a system could work based on reputation, but there’s always the risk that such a reputation was simply gained for the purpose of making “the big haul” on a high value item. A free dusk would certainly be compelling enough for someone to put the effort into building the reputation required. With how slowly and unevenly information transfers, it’s plausible they could get away with it multiple times before people believed the people who were scammed.

A free dusk is worthless when you get banned for scamming.

The odds of Anet actually banning someone for that (considering it’s a 1 or 2 time scam) are probably pretty close to the odds of me winning the Powerball on Saturday, and I’m not even buying a ticket.

While they certainly could ban someone for scamming, circumventing the TP is not an endorsed behavior and they’ve repeatedly stated any behaviors there are at the player’s own risk as they will not intervene to right any such transactions. Since they want people to use the TP, scammers scaring people away from dodging the fee actually benefits them (there’s still the upset person being a negative, but that’s beside the point). Scam bans are likely reserved for repeat offenders or more elaborate ruses.

A better option would just be to have a player to player trading system, where a buyer posts an offer and a seller can selects it from a list of offers to open in interface for the two buyers. Or something where you can trade directly with someone you know. I’m not sure how either would affect the tp though

Charismatic Harm.9683:

Esplen.3940:

You could have a verification system which requires a mail and response.

How would this work? Would it also be a service the 3rd party would provide? Is it just something that shows both players acknowledge the trade? Would it be something that Anet programs in?

I can’t see Anet adding ANY kind of system that allows for circumnavigation of the Trading Post….especially when the Trading Post is secure already. Also, the TP is a MAJOR gold sink that is sorely needed in this game. I see many players complaining about inflation and gold sinks are the primary way to combat it (but this is a topic for a different thread).

The bottom line is that any trading outside of the Trading Post will have a negative effect on the game as a whole….even if it looks good in the short run for the players by saving them money on fees, it will be bad for the players in the long run by making everything more expensive. Those Trading Post fees are a necessary evil to combat inflation in the game….along with repair costs, travel fees, etc. The game actually needs MORE of them….not ways to work around the already existing ones.

I would think it would be what the third-party would provide.

My concept (once again, a concept) would be a website where the Third-Party Overseers, or let’s call them Brokers, registers their name and advertise their Trading Guild. They can add more details such as home server, days available, time available, and schedule of fees. The website would serve as a Broker Rating website, where buyers and sellers rate the broker by their trustworthiness, friendliness and cost. Only Brokers are rated.

If some player saw a WTS in map chat, he can either buy it directly from the seller by mail-to-mail, or he can go to the Broker Rating website and look for a broker.

Once again, there is always a caveat. Since it’s off-TP, the risk is very, very high. It is in the sole discretion of the buyer or seller to use either mail-to-mail or a broker. The hassle and risk may not be worth it.

John Smith.4610:

Gold sellers and scammers would bury any of these systems. Do not underestimate them. Also the TP is awesome, just use it.

This message has been brought to you by unbiased parties.

Yeah, the TP is awesome. And the implementation of a player run Broker system would be long, hard and unreliable. But it’s a step-up from my other idea, which was rating Sellers.

The idea was partially inspired by the Consortium when they were announced. I actually thought the Consortium was a sort of competition for the BLTC.

The problem with the TP though is the 15% total tax, which may not seem like a lot but if you are selling items that are really valuable, it makes a lot of difference!

For normal items, the TP is probably your best choice.

DarkSpirit.7046:

The problem with the TP though is the 15% total tax, which may not seem like a lot but if you are selling items that are really valuable, it makes a lot of difference!

For normal items, the TP is probably your best choice.

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Pandemoniac.4739:

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

The TP would have been a more desirable option for high priced goods if ArenaNet has a hard limit to the TP fees. Otherwise, as items become more expensive, such third party options would become more desirable.

For third party solutions to work, the trusted broker has to be approved by BOTH the seller and the buyer for the transaction and the terms be clearly laid out and communicated.

Also I would suggest a hard max and min limit to the broker fees. You don’t want to waste the broker’s time on transactions dealing with only small amounts of copper.

DarkSpirit.7046:

The problem with the TP though is the 15% total tax, which may not seem like a lot but if you are selling items that are really valuable, it makes a lot of difference!

For normal items, the TP is probably your best choice.

For some people it means if they luck out and get a fantastic item that would sell for a lot of gold, they are out of luck because they can’t afford the listing price.

Katz.5143:

DarkSpirit.7046:

The problem with the TP though is the 15% total tax, which may not seem like a lot but if you are selling items that are really valuable, it makes a lot of difference!

For normal items, the TP is probably your best choice.

For some people it means if they luck out and get a fantastic item that would sell for a lot of gold, they are out of luck because they can’t afford the listing price.

Good point the 5% listing price upfront is also another factor limiting the sale of high priced goods on the TP.

I have also heard of people selling precursors on the TP, paid the listing price, then their precursor prices dropped causing most of the gold from the final sell transaction to end up as TP fees than to the seller’s pocket.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

The TP would have been a more desirable option for high priced goods if ArenaNet has a hard limit to the TP fees. Otherwise, as items become more expensive, such third party options would become more desirable.

For third party solutions to work, the trusted broker has to be approved by BOTH the seller and the buyer for the transaction and the terms be clearly laid out and communicated.

Also I would suggest a hard max and min limit to the broker fees. You don’t want to waste the broker’s time on transactions dealing with only small amounts of copper.

I know a guy who worked for months to get the Juggernaut, but he decided to circumvent the TP to sell it to a guildmate through the mail system. He was scammed out of thousands of gold and a ton of hard work.
If he had just used the trading post and accepted the 15% fee, probably something like 300 gold, he would be something like 1700 gold richer. Instead, he was so frustrated, he quit the game. I even tried to talk him back into it via Facebook, but he was too upset to consider playing again.

Honestly, it really is important. If you’re making 1700 gold, what’s 300?

DarkSpirit.7046:

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

It already is determined by the seller. If the 15% isn’t worth it, you try to sell your item without using the TP and take your chances. The community has already organized an unofficial LFG forum. I’m sure there’s a grey market out there somewhere (although from what John said earlier, it may be infested with RMTs).

The 5% listing fee I have mixed feelings about. On one hand, it puts downward pressure on the sale prices because if you list your item too high, you’ll just have to take it off the market and list it again when it doesn’t sell and that will take a big chunk out of your profit. On the other hand, if someone who doesn’t have the cash does have a valuable item, it prevents them from being able to list it at the going price. But then they could always just fill a buy order, so while they aren’t getting the best price, they aren’t completely excluded from the market unless no one wants their item enough to put a reasonable buy order in. I think that’s unlikely for something that’s truly valuable.

I’m not particularly opposed to the idea of a group of folks offering to broker deals for people. I cringe to think about the number of support tickets and forum threads it’s likely to end up generating though.

Pandemoniac.4739:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

It already is determined by the seller. If the 15% isn’t worth it, you try to sell your item without using the TP and take your chances. The community has already organized an unofficial LFG forum. I’m sure there’s a grey market out there somewhere (although from what John said earlier, it may be infested with RMTs).

The 5% listing fee I have mixed feelings about. On one hand, it puts downward pressure on the sale prices because if you list your item too high, you’ll just have to take it off the market and list it again when it doesn’t sell and that will take a big chunk out of your profit. On the other hand, if someone who doesn’t have the cash does have a valuable item, it prevents them from being able to list it at the going price. But then they could always just fill a buy order, so while they aren’t getting the best price, they aren’t completely excluded from the market unless no one wants their item enough to put a reasonable buy order in. I think that’s unlikely for something that’s truly valuable.

I’m not particularly opposed to the idea of a group of folks offering to broker deals for people. I cringe to think about the number of support tickets and forum threads it’s likely to end up generating though.

Yeah, the support thing and thread complaints would be a problem for ANet. But circumventing the TP is risky. At least with a Broker Rating system, it would be focused on the broker alone, whereas a Seller Rating system, it would be a problematic.

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

The TP would have been a more desirable option for high priced goods if ArenaNet has a hard limit to the TP fees. Otherwise, as items become more expensive, such third party options would become more desirable.

For third party solutions to work, the trusted broker has to be approved by BOTH the seller and the buyer for the transaction and the terms be clearly laid out and communicated.

Also I would suggest a hard max and min limit to the broker fees. You don’t want to waste the broker’s time on transactions dealing with only small amounts of copper.

I know a guy who worked for months to get the Juggernaut, but he decided to circumvent the TP to sell it to a guildmate through the mail system. He was scammed out of thousands of gold and a ton of hard work.
If he had just used the trading post and accepted the 15% fee, probably something like 300 gold, he would be something like 1700 gold richer. Instead, he was so frustrated, he quit the game. I even tried to talk him back into it via Facebook, but he was too upset to consider playing again.

Honestly, it really is important. If you’re making 1700 gold, what’s 300?

Well then he should have known me as I would have helped in the transaction ensuring that everything is fair.

Just because one person made a mistake does not imply that there are no honest people left in this world.

I know some people don’t even seek out a trusted proxy for trades like this, which is definitely the WRONG way of doing it. The most important thing for these kinds of trades is to find a trusted proxy for the buyer and seller.

To be honest, I am not worried about ArenaNet’s part of this deal. It is not like they would be pouring huge resources into finding your items back for you if you lose it like this anyway.

It is at the seller’s own risk, but I believe that once the system is on its way for some time, we would know who the trustworthy brokers are and these would be able to broker transactions of higher value.

DarkSpirit.7046:

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

The TP would have been a more desirable option for high priced goods if ArenaNet has a hard limit to the TP fees. Otherwise, as items become more expensive, such third party options would become more desirable.

For third party solutions to work, the trusted broker has to be approved by BOTH the seller and the buyer for the transaction and the terms be clearly laid out and communicated.

Also I would suggest a hard max and min limit to the broker fees. You don’t want to waste the broker’s time on transactions dealing with only small amounts of copper.

I know a guy who worked for months to get the Juggernaut, but he decided to circumvent the TP to sell it to a guildmate through the mail system. He was scammed out of thousands of gold and a ton of hard work.
If he had just used the trading post and accepted the 15% fee, probably something like 300 gold, he would be something like 1700 gold richer. Instead, he was so frustrated, he quit the game. I even tried to talk him back into it via Facebook, but he was too upset to consider playing again.

Honestly, it really is important. If you’re making 1700 gold, what’s 300?

Well then he should have known me as I would have helped in the transaction ensuring that everything is fair.

Just because one person made a mistake does not imply that there are no honest people left in this world.

I know some people don’t even seek out a trusted proxy for trades like this, which is definitely the WRONG way of doing it. The most important thing for these kinds of trades is to find a trusted proxy for the buyer and seller.

To be honest, I am not worried about ArenaNet’s part of this deal. It is not like they would be pouring huge resources into finding your items back for you if you lose it like this anyway.

It is at the seller’s own risk, but I believe that once the system is on its way for some time, we would know who the trustworthy brokers are and these would be able to broker transactions of higher value.

Interesting. So you’ve been a broker for a while?

nastyjman.8207:

DarkSpirit.7046:

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

The TP would have been a more desirable option for high priced goods if ArenaNet has a hard limit to the TP fees. Otherwise, as items become more expensive, such third party options would become more desirable.

For third party solutions to work, the trusted broker has to be approved by BOTH the seller and the buyer for the transaction and the terms be clearly laid out and communicated.

Also I would suggest a hard max and min limit to the broker fees. You don’t want to waste the broker’s time on transactions dealing with only small amounts of copper.

I know a guy who worked for months to get the Juggernaut, but he decided to circumvent the TP to sell it to a guildmate through the mail system. He was scammed out of thousands of gold and a ton of hard work.
If he had just used the trading post and accepted the 15% fee, probably something like 300 gold, he would be something like 1700 gold richer. Instead, he was so frustrated, he quit the game. I even tried to talk him back into it via Facebook, but he was too upset to consider playing again.

Honestly, it really is important. If you’re making 1700 gold, what’s 300?

Well then he should have known me as I would have helped in the transaction ensuring that everything is fair.

Just because one person made a mistake does not imply that there are no honest people left in this world.

I know some people don’t even seek out a trusted proxy for trades like this, which is definitely the WRONG way of doing it. The most important thing for these kinds of trades is to find a trusted proxy for the buyer and seller.

To be honest, I am not worried about ArenaNet’s part of this deal. It is not like they would be pouring huge resources into finding your items back for you if you lose it like this anyway.

It is at the seller’s own risk, but I believe that once the system is on its way for some time, we would know who the trustworthy brokers are and these would be able to broker transactions of higher value.

Interesting. So you’ve been a broker for a while?

I have broker before, but I won’t exactly say that I have been a broker for a while.

DarkSpirit.7046:

nastyjman.8207:

DarkSpirit.7046:

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

The TP would have been a more desirable option for high priced goods if ArenaNet has a hard limit to the TP fees. Otherwise, as items become more expensive, such third party options would become more desirable.

For third party solutions to work, the trusted broker has to be approved by BOTH the seller and the buyer for the transaction and the terms be clearly laid out and communicated.

Also I would suggest a hard max and min limit to the broker fees. You don’t want to waste the broker’s time on transactions dealing with only small amounts of copper.

I know a guy who worked for months to get the Juggernaut, but he decided to circumvent the TP to sell it to a guildmate through the mail system. He was scammed out of thousands of gold and a ton of hard work.
If he had just used the trading post and accepted the 15% fee, probably something like 300 gold, he would be something like 1700 gold richer. Instead, he was so frustrated, he quit the game. I even tried to talk him back into it via Facebook, but he was too upset to consider playing again.

Honestly, it really is important. If you’re making 1700 gold, what’s 300?

Well then he should have known me as I would have helped in the transaction ensuring that everything is fair.

Just because one person made a mistake does not imply that there are no honest people left in this world.

I know some people don’t even seek out a trusted proxy for trades like this, which is definitely the WRONG way of doing it. The most important thing for these kinds of trades is to find a trusted proxy for the buyer and seller.

To be honest, I am not worried about ArenaNet’s part of this deal. It is not like they would be pouring huge resources into finding your items back for you if you lose it like this anyway.

It is at the seller’s own risk, but I believe that once the system is on its way for some time, we would know who the trustworthy brokers are and these would be able to broker transactions of higher value.

Interesting. So you’ve been a broker for a while?

I have broker before, but I won’t exactly say that I have been a broker for a while.

How does that work? One party sends you a ton of gold and the other sends you a really valuable item?

You’re right. That’s the perfect solution.

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

nastyjman.8207:

DarkSpirit.7046:

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

But it’s for the really valuable items that the TP is most useful. A 15% tax ensures that the seller gets the widest possible audience of interested buyers for their item, and protects both the buyer and the seller against getting scammed. Many auction houses in real life charge 30%.

Just factor the 15% into your pricing. In my opinion, it’s well worth the money to bypass the hassle of advertising it and the risk of dealing with an anonymous stranger without any recourse if they rip you off. Would you rather have the 130 gold or an e-mail from support explaining there is no way they can replace the 150 gold item that was stolen from you?

I think for a lot of things, if you used the time you would have spent finding a reputable buyer and negotiating the deal to farm a little, you’d make back most of the 15% fee and you wouldn’t have the risk of getting scammed.

Whether something is worth the 15% tax should be determined by the seller on a per-case basis.

Is a 150g tax on a 1000g sell transaction worth it? Not to me, but again, that is subjective.

The TP would have been a more desirable option for high priced goods if ArenaNet has a hard limit to the TP fees. Otherwise, as items become more expensive, such third party options would become more desirable.

For third party solutions to work, the trusted broker has to be approved by BOTH the seller and the buyer for the transaction and the terms be clearly laid out and communicated.

Also I would suggest a hard max and min limit to the broker fees. You don’t want to waste the broker’s time on transactions dealing with only small amounts of copper.

I know a guy who worked for months to get the Juggernaut, but he decided to circumvent the TP to sell it to a guildmate through the mail system. He was scammed out of thousands of gold and a ton of hard work.
If he had just used the trading post and accepted the 15% fee, probably something like 300 gold, he would be something like 1700 gold richer. Instead, he was so frustrated, he quit the game. I even tried to talk him back into it via Facebook, but he was too upset to consider playing again.

Honestly, it really is important. If you’re making 1700 gold, what’s 300?

Well then he should have known me as I would have helped in the transaction ensuring that everything is fair.

Just because one person made a mistake does not imply that there are no honest people left in this world.

I know some people don’t even seek out a trusted proxy for trades like this, which is definitely the WRONG way of doing it. The most important thing for these kinds of trades is to find a trusted proxy for the buyer and seller.

To be honest, I am not worried about ArenaNet’s part of this deal. It is not like they would be pouring huge resources into finding your items back for you if you lose it like this anyway.

It is at the seller’s own risk, but I believe that once the system is on its way for some time, we would know who the trustworthy brokers are and these would be able to broker transactions of higher value.

Interesting. So you’ve been a broker for a while?

I have broker before, but I won’t exactly say that I have been a broker for a while.

How does that work? One party sends you a ton of gold and the other sends you a really valuable item?

You’re right. That’s the perfect solution.

Pretty much.

Dishonest brokers are short-sighted since nobody would trust them anymore if word gets out that they have ran off with the items and gold. I prefer to keep my integrity and continue to earn my broker commissions which are lower than the TP fees.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Dishonest brokers are short-sighted since nobody would trust them anymore if word gets out that they have ran off with the items and gold. I prefer to keep my integrity and continue to earn my broker commissions which are lower than the TP fees.

In theory it’s great, and I’ll just say again I’m not opposed to brokers before I get all cynical. I do believe that there are plenty of honest folks out there that will broker a deal in good faith.

Every day folks get taken advantage of by liars that have managed to convince them that they’re trustworthy, and that’s in a world where there are legal repercussions if you get caught. Some folks are incredibly short sighted and will scam people until they have run out of people that aren’t aware they are a scammer, then they’ll hop servers and start again.

The only folks that have access to data that can prove that someone has been scammed is ANet and I think they’ve got their plate full already. It’s not fair to ask them to police the grey market, so it still comes down to trusting someone who is completely anonymous and has very little chance of any consequences for ripping you off.

You could set up something like the “Better Broker Bureau” where folks could register complaints, but then again, you have to deal with bad apples trying to discredit honest brokers, and they only folks who can prove otherwise are ANet, and it’s not fair to ask them to get involved.

The Internet just brings out the worst in some people. A broker guild might work on one server with a limited number of folks where you can build a reputation and vet your members carefully, but as soon as it grows, it gets harder to manage. It’s not impossible though. I think playing too many MMOs has ruined my faith in humanity

Pandemoniac.4739:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Dishonest brokers are short-sighted since nobody would trust them anymore if word gets out that they have ran off with the items and gold. I prefer to keep my integrity and continue to earn my broker commissions which are lower than the TP fees.

In theory it’s great, and I’ll just say again I’m not opposed to brokers before I get all cynical. I do believe that there are plenty of honest folks out there that will broker a deal in good faith.

Every day folks get taken advantage of by liars that have managed to convince them that they’re trustworthy, and that’s in a world where there are legal repercussions if you get caught. Some folks are incredibly short sighted and will scam people until they have run out of people that aren’t aware they are a scammer, then they’ll hop servers and start again.

The only folks that have access to data that can prove that someone has been scammed is ANet and I think they’ve got their plate full already. It’s not fair to ask them to police the grey market, so it still comes down to trusting someone who is completely anonymous and has very little chance of any consequences for ripping you off.

You could set up something like the “Better Broker Bureau” where folks could register complaints, but then again, you have to deal with bad apples trying to discredit honest brokers, and they only folks who can prove otherwise are ANet, and it’s not fair to ask them to get involved.

The Internet just brings out the worst in some people. A broker guild might work on one server with a limited number of folks where you can build a reputation and vet your members carefully, but as soon as it grows, it gets harder to manage. It’s not impossible though. I think playing too many MMOs has ruined my faith in humanity

I agree with most of what you said here, but I would add the following:

What are the consequences for violating the arrangement? The inability to do it again with the same people? The only ones with the ability to actually punish an offender are ArenaNet employees, and as has been said, they have enough on their plates without the “honest” brokers on the honor system.

Here’s a hypothetical instance involving an opportunistic player named Bob. He doesn’t see anything wrong with scamming people in the game, because he tells himself it’s a game and it’s not real. However, Bob wants a lot of money and a legendary weapon, and he hasn’t the resources to acquire one himself. He stumbles upon some folks who think a broker would be a good idea, and that gives him an idea, too. Bob convinces them he’s honest, whether by brokering a few smaller trades or simply telling them he had done so. One way or another, he finds himself acting as a third party in a trade for that legendary weapon he’s wanted from the beginning. It just so happens that weapon is worth a large sum of money, too. The two parties send their items to Bob, who promptly blocks them both and absconds with their goods.

You might say, “But then nobody will use him as a broker.” But why would that matter? Bob has a legendary weapon and a couple thousand gold! He doesn’t care if anyone wants him to help them trade. If he really wants to scam people again, he can just buy another game account and start again… It would cost much less than the gold needed to buy a legendary.

I still find it hard to believe anyone is actually using this system. And what’s this about “broker fees”? Are they, I take it, significantly lower than 15%? They’d have to be less than 1%, I would think, in order to justify the loss of security— and I still wouldn’t use it. With the trading post, you know you’re not going to get scammed. With this system, you’re just hoping.

Just use the trading post.. it’s a small price to pay for the 100 % insurance of getting what you paid for.

RoyHarmon.5398:

Pandemoniac.4739:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Dishonest brokers are short-sighted since nobody would trust them anymore if word gets out that they have ran off with the items and gold. I prefer to keep my integrity and continue to earn my broker commissions which are lower than the TP fees.

In theory it’s great, and I’ll just say again I’m not opposed to brokers before I get all cynical. I do believe that there are plenty of honest folks out there that will broker a deal in good faith.

Every day folks get taken advantage of by liars that have managed to convince them that they’re trustworthy, and that’s in a world where there are legal repercussions if you get caught. Some folks are incredibly short sighted and will scam people until they have run out of people that aren’t aware they are a scammer, then they’ll hop servers and start again.

The only folks that have access to data that can prove that someone has been scammed is ANet and I think they’ve got their plate full already. It’s not fair to ask them to police the grey market, so it still comes down to trusting someone who is completely anonymous and has very little chance of any consequences for ripping you off.

You could set up something like the “Better Broker Bureau” where folks could register complaints, but then again, you have to deal with bad apples trying to discredit honest brokers, and they only folks who can prove otherwise are ANet, and it’s not fair to ask them to get involved.

The Internet just brings out the worst in some people. A broker guild might work on one server with a limited number of folks where you can build a reputation and vet your members carefully, but as soon as it grows, it gets harder to manage. It’s not impossible though. I think playing too many MMOs has ruined my faith in humanity

I agree with most of what you said here, but I would add the following:

What are the consequences for violating the arrangement? The inability to do it again with the same people? The only ones with the ability to actually punish an offender are ArenaNet employees, and as has been said, they have enough on their plates without the “honest” brokers on the honor system.

Here’s a hypothetical instance involving an opportunistic player named Bob. He doesn’t see anything wrong with scamming people in the game, because he tells himself it’s a game and it’s not real. However, Bob wants a lot of money and a legendary weapon, and he hasn’t the resources to acquire one himself. He stumbles upon some folks who think a broker would be a good idea, and that gives him an idea, too. Bob convinces them he’s honest, whether by brokering a few smaller trades or simply telling them he had done so. One way or another, he finds himself acting as a third party in a trade for that legendary weapon he’s wanted from the beginning. It just so happens that weapon is worth a large sum of money, too. The two parties send their items to Bob, who promptly blocks them both and absconds with their goods.

You might say, “But then nobody will use him as a broker.” But why would that matter? Bob has a legendary weapon and a couple thousand gold! He doesn’t care if anyone wants him to help them trade. If he really wants to scam people again, he can just buy another game account and start again… It would cost much less than the gold needed to buy a legendary.

I still find it hard to believe anyone is actually using this system. And what’s this about “broker fees”? Are they, I take it, significantly lower than 15%? They’d have to be less than 1%, I would think, in order to justify the loss of security— and I still wouldn’t use it. With the trading post, you know you’re not going to get scammed. With this system, you’re just hoping.

Then he would be incredibly short sighted. The broker commission that he could have accumulated over the months and years would far exceed the price of the legendary.

Besides, brokers work their way up. Only the brokers who have proven themselves in smaller transactions would be trusted for larger transactions. A broker guild system, with ranking, seems to make sense. If any broker betrays the trusts, then he/she would be booted out of the guild.

Thus, it is important to “document” the transactions at each crucial step, by taking screenshots.

Lafiel.9372:

Just use the trading post.. it’s a small price to pay for the 100 % insurance of getting what you paid for.

Like I have said, theTP is great for most of the items but for high priced items, it is an extremely expensive option. Furthermore, the TP requires a upfront listing fee that some people may not be able to afford. Also if the price of your item drops after listing, and you have to re-list your item, then you can lose even more gold to TP fees than what you get through selling your high priced items.

After reading through other folks’ ideas and thinking about it for a bit, I remain convinced that the TP is unequivocally the best option. The only items most folks would be willing to go through the hassle of finding a buyer and broker for are so valuable that the temptation to take the money and run is just too great.

If the 15% fee is large enough to give you pause, just think how hard it is for folks to have 100% of the sale money AND the item in their hands and settle for a 1% broker fee. Especially when it is “just a game” and the victims aren’t going to have any serious or lasting harm done to them (although I imagine it would be devastating emotionally, you aren’t going to end up homeless or unable to send your kids to college). I think the risk-reward ratio falls squarely on the side of the dishonest person here.

On top of that, I think it would be really demoralizing for the folks that worked hard to put together an honest broker system to have a bunch of unethical jerks ruin it. While it’s an admirable idea, I just don’t think the effort and cost to make it work would be worth it. If this was Diablo 2 and there was no safe alternative, it would be worthwhile. I just don’t see how you could add enough value to make the broker service more attractive than the TP to a large number of people.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Then he would be incredibly short sighted. The broker commission that he could have accumulated over the months and years would far exceed the price of the legendary.

Yes, you’re correct, but then most people are incredibly short sighted. Think about all the people that spend money on lottery tickets every week. If they invested that $20/week or whatever they’d have a lot more to show for it, but oddly this tax on folks that are bad at statistics manages to rake in the money.

It stinks, but most folks have trouble thinking long term. They’d rather have a little money now than 10x as much coming in regularly a year from now. Building a business is hard work whether it’s in the virtual world or the real world. Stealing is easy, especially in a virtual world.

Pandemoniac.4739:

After reading through other folks’ ideas and thinking about it for a bit, I remain convinced that the TP is unequivocally the best option. The only items most folks would be willing to go through the hassle of finding a buyer and broker for are so valuable that the temptation to take the money and run is just too great.

Maybe I am naive, but I believe that there should be more people who would not be tempted, since I know I won’t be. Once a working process is setup, there is not a lot of work for the broker to do, to broker a transaction.

There are also not a lot of brokers needed for high end transactions since these don’t happen frequently. Some sellers would prefer the TP option and that is fine. But brokering for a 1000g transaction with a fee of only 1% already earns the broker 10g for a work that takes about a minute. Even if the broker charges 10% (100g), it would still be more worth it because the buyer gets to save 50g.

If high end broker fees are that lucrative, then it pays better, in the long run, for brokers to be honest. This is especially more so if brokers have to work their way up towards higher end transactions.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

After reading through other folks’ ideas and thinking about it for a bit, I remain convinced that the TP is unequivocally the best option. The only items most folks would be willing to go through the hassle of finding a buyer and broker for are so valuable that the temptation to take the money and run is just too great.

Maybe I am naive, but I believe that there should be more people who would not be tempted, since I know I won’t be. Once a working process is setup, there is not a lot of work for the broker to do, to broker a transaction.

I wouldn’t say naive, just optimistic. I’ve been involved in on-line communities for, ahem, more years than I’m willing to admit to as a woman who stopped counting her birthdays a while ago, and it has probably made me overly cynical.

The work for the broker isn’t much once you have the deal. The work is in getting the buyer and the seller together and having them both know about you and trust you so you that you can broker the deal. I can’t imagine how you would get traction across so many servers and time zones, when the TP is just so easy to use. If you can pull it off more power to you.

Pandemoniac.4739:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

After reading through other folks’ ideas and thinking about it for a bit, I remain convinced that the TP is unequivocally the best option. The only items most folks would be willing to go through the hassle of finding a buyer and broker for are so valuable that the temptation to take the money and run is just too great.

Maybe I am naive, but I believe that there should be more people who would not be tempted, since I know I won’t be. Once a working process is setup, there is not a lot of work for the broker to do, to broker a transaction.

I wouldn’t say naive, just optimistic. I’ve been involved in on-line communities for, ahem, more years than I’m willing to admit to as a woman who stopped counting her birthdays a while ago, and it has probably made me overly cynical.

The work for the broker isn’t much once you have the deal. The work is in getting the buyer and the seller together and having them both know about you and trust you so you that you can broker the deal. I can’t imagine how you would get traction across so many servers and time zones, when the TP is just so easy to use. If you can pull it off more power to you.

The different servers and time zone shouldn’t be a problem since you are doing it through the in-game mail system.

Having a website with a clearly laid out process would help. The buyer, seller, and broker should document their transactions with screenshots to prove their case should any issue arise.

Every broker should have a verified email address registered with the broker guild. If the broker is proven to be dishonest, then his email would be listed in the page of shame. The community is then encouraged to place him on ignore and not have any dealings with him.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

After reading through other folks’ ideas and thinking about it for a bit, I remain convinced that the TP is unequivocally the best option. The only items most folks would be willing to go through the hassle of finding a buyer and broker for are so valuable that the temptation to take the money and run is just too great.

Maybe I am naive, but I believe that there should be more people who would not be tempted, since I know I won’t be. Once a working process is setup, there is not a lot of work for the broker to do, to broker a transaction.

I wouldn’t say naive, just optimistic. I’ve been involved in on-line communities for, ahem, more years than I’m willing to admit to as a woman who stopped counting her birthdays a while ago, and it has probably made me overly cynical.

The work for the broker isn’t much once you have the deal. The work is in getting the buyer and the seller together and having them both know about you and trust you so you that you can broker the deal. I can’t imagine how you would get traction across so many servers and time zones, when the TP is just so easy to use. If you can pull it off more power to you.

The different servers and time zone shouldn’t be a problem since you are doing it through the in-game mail system.

Having a website with a clearly laid out process would help. The buyer, seller, and broker should document their transactions with screenshots to prove their case should any issue arise.

Every broker should have a verified email address registered with the broker guild. If the broker is proven to be dishonest, then his email would be listed in the page of shame. The community is then encouraged to place him on ignore and not have any dealings with him.

Why in the world would anyone think this is a better system than the 100% guaranteed Trading Post, built as an integral part of the game’s economy, fully endorsed and supported by the developers, and charging a far lower fee than the real-world equivalent service?

Okay, maybe you’re honest, “DarkSpirit.” Maybe your heart is in the right place and that’s just an ironic misnomer. But so far, your main argument seems to be, “I’m trustworthy! Really, take my word for it!” You’re either alarmingly naive, or you’re looking for your next mark.

Forgive the irony, but if you think a third-party broker is a better alternative to the official Trading Post, you’re living in a fantasy world.

RoyHarmon.5398:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Pandemoniac.4739:

After reading through other folks’ ideas and thinking about it for a bit, I remain convinced that the TP is unequivocally the best option. The only items most folks would be willing to go through the hassle of finding a buyer and broker for are so valuable that the temptation to take the money and run is just too great.

Maybe I am naive, but I believe that there should be more people who would not be tempted, since I know I won’t be. Once a working process is setup, there is not a lot of work for the broker to do, to broker a transaction.

I wouldn’t say naive, just optimistic. I’ve been involved in on-line communities for, ahem, more years than I’m willing to admit to as a woman who stopped counting her birthdays a while ago, and it has probably made me overly cynical.

The work for the broker isn’t much once you have the deal. The work is in getting the buyer and the seller together and having them both know about you and trust you so you that you can broker the deal. I can’t imagine how you would get traction across so many servers and time zones, when the TP is just so easy to use. If you can pull it off more power to you.

The different servers and time zone shouldn’t be a problem since you are doing it through the in-game mail system.

Having a website with a clearly laid out process would help. The buyer, seller, and broker should document their transactions with screenshots to prove their case should any issue arise.

Every broker should have a verified email address registered with the broker guild. If the broker is proven to be dishonest, then his email would be listed in the page of shame. The community is then encouraged to place him on ignore and not have any dealings with him.

Why in the world would anyone think this is a better system than the 100% guaranteed Trading Post, built as an integral part of the game’s economy, fully endorsed and supported by the developers, and charging a far lower fee than the real-world equivalent service?

Okay, maybe you’re honest, “DarkSpirit.” Maybe your heart is in the right place and that’s just an ironic misnomer. But so far, your main argument seems to be, “I’m trustworthy! Really, take my word for it!”

Why? Because with lower fees, the buyer can buy at a cheaper price and the seller can get a larger share of his profits. If I use the TP I am guaranteed to lose 150g (for a 1000g transaction), and that is assuming the price doesn’t go down and I wouldn’t have to waste more money to re-list the item. Why let the 150g disappear for nothing when it can be used to benefit more people by recycling the money back into the economy.

It is a matter of trust and of course there is a risk involved. But I think trust can be built over time from smaller transactions into bigger ones.

DarkSpirit.7046:

It is a matter of trust and of course there is a risk involved. But I think trust can be built over time from smaller transactions into bigger ones.

Maybe you are an honest, good soul. It’s possible you have the intention to only help people, and not hurt them. This is great. I’d like to think the world is mostly this type of person.

Unfortunately, the trust built from smaller transactions is meaningless. The first thing I would do if I were a scammer is build up a good, reputable enterprise. Once there’s enough reputation to be trusted with a haul of sufficient size (i.e. stealing a legendary swap, perhaps), you just snag the goods, and jump ship.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve/news/eve-online-ponzi-scheme-claims-over-1-trillion-isk-from-players

It’s always in hindsight that people wonder how the victims could be so gullible.

I personally would never participate in something without game-controlled safeguards. The TP tax is a fee that I happily work into my balance sheets in exchange for the security, convenience, and exposure.

That is your preference and it is perfectly fine. However, it is also a well known fact that with bigger risks come bigger profits, so it is a matter of your personal degree of risk tolerance.

In real life, there are the blue chip traders and there are those who trade penny stocks and options. It is not a matter of one being right and the other being wrong, they both can co-exist.

Well that creed isn’t wrong, but in this game at least, I value volume over raw margin. The TP can help you cycle 100 of an item in the time it would take you to organize and broker a single deal.

If market profits are your goal, trying to circumvent the 15% tax is really only worthwhile when dealing in singular, large transactions where a slow rate of exchange does not matter. Legendary items are one example, as well as their precursors and possibly several expensive exotics. Therin lies the problem: the transactions that benefit most from using a 3rd party are also the ones that place far more value at risk.

I don’t mean to denounce the method of trading. To my knowledge, ArenaNet has no policy against the grey market. However, I know some people do get burned on the trades and expect the game to help recover their losses or punish the scammer.

I have no sympathy for this: accept the risks you take.

Yes, accept the risks that you take.

When people do it wrong trading through the in-game mail system, without using a 3rd party, they tend to come to the forums to cry about it. But there were also successful mail trades that were done right, through a 3rd party, but the people involved usually don’t come to the forum to announce them. So, we hear more bad cases than good cases, which is natural, but we may have formed a skewed perception of the truth.

I am still optimistic about this and such brokerage system would be more popular if it gets organized.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Then he would be incredibly short sighted. The broker commission that he could have accumulated over the months and years would far exceed the price of the legendary.

Not at all, it’s extremely shortsighted and naive to look at it that way. That “broker” would merely be opportunistic. Sure they might be able to earn more commission over a period of years, but this isn’t about long run profit maximization. Ignoring time value of money, you have the fact that being a broker is a fair bit of work. You have to maintain appearances and reputation to ensure people trust you. You have to be available with sufficient regularity to actually make the transactions. You have to verify the things you’ve been sent actually match the agreed upon transaction by both parties. You have to take out your tiny profit from the transaction and actually forward the items correctly. You have to pay for any mistakes you actually make. You have to deal with the customer service angle of the inevitable people who regret purchases they made through you (and you’ll be the target 99% of the time). You have to deal with the false accusations of people trying to harm your reputation or scam and blackmail you. It’s not something that just sits in the corner and magically accumulates wealth. It’s work.

Now instead of that, you can just make off with a big score. If you’re any good at being a broker you can probably make off with at least 2-3 big scores before your reputation is ruined. One big pay day up front is worth a lot more than a potential revenue stream years into the future when we’re talking about a game. You might not even be playing this game in 6 months, so the revenue you might generate from brokering at that point could be worth nothing.

But then you come back to the time value of money issue. A Dusk and 600g are worth a lot more right now than 2000g made over a period of 18 months. If you really feel you need more money than those provide, you now have 600g to start investing to try make more money, and you don’t have to waste time and effort doing anything to keep it.

Syeria.4812:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Then he would be incredibly short sighted. The broker commission that he could have accumulated over the months and years would far exceed the price of the legendary.

But then you come back to the time value of money issue. A Dusk and 600g are worth a lot more right now than 2000g made over a period of 18 months. If you really feel you need more money than those provide, you now have 600g to start investing to try make more money, and you don’t have to waste time and effort doing anything to keep it.

I think it’s difficult for folks that get a lot of satisfaction out of earning money through their talent/diligence and that enjoy having a good reputation to grok people that just don’t care how they get the money or how many people despise them as long as they don’t get punished.

(Edit – just re-read that and thought I needed to clarify) The time/money calculations don’t account for everything for the folks that are also getting satisfaction from being a good broker, but I think there are fewer of those folks than the other kind…