Guild Wars 2

I’m no economist by any stretch of the imagination. Mathematician… yes. Economist… no way. However, I’ve been enjoying this particular topic quite a bit, so I’ll throw my own question into the mix.

In general, what determines whether or not a particular item will be tradeable? Is it a complex list of criteria, or is it relatively simple?

I’m honestly of the mindset that the vast majority, if not all of the items, should be tradeable, but I also know that might be a stretch overall.

John Smith.4610:

TChalla.7146:

I’m no economist by any stretch of the imagination. Mathematician… yes. Economist… no way. However, I’ve been enjoying this particular topic quite a bit, so I’ll throw my own question into the mix.

In general, what determines whether or not a particular item will be tradeable? Is it a complex list of criteria, or is it relatively simple?

I’m honestly of the mindset that the vast majority, if not all of the items, should be tradeable, but I also know that might be a stretch overall.

It isn’t simple. There’s a lot of factors that go into the decision. The intent of the item, the reason or goal behind it’s creation, usually leads us in the direction of deciding.

I figured it would be a relatively complex determination. My main drive for even asking was the addition of craftable items that cannot be traded. I am always surprised to see craftables that cannot be traded, since, at least in my mind, craftables logically should be tradeable. I understand the reasoning behind ascended gear not being tradeable (to a certain degree at least, even if I disagree with it overall), but some of the other items don’t make much sense to me, especially with consumables.

John Smith.4610:

Mckeone.9804:

What kind of tools do you use to manage the economy? Did you develop them in house, get them from a third party, or is it just excel gone wild?

We have a big data solution to help me manage the obscene quantity of data involved. I have a mix of third party and proprietary tools, but one never fully escapes excel. I’m oldschool and have an unhealthy love for excel, though it has many limitations, so if I need to do more advanced statistics I need to use more serious software.

As someone who works in the BI/DWH field, I’d be extremely interested in any more details that you are able to provide about the tools you use, so I guess my question would be around the scope of the game data you’re able to access with these tools.

For instance, are you able to link data about how players spend their time in game with data about their “economic activity”, and thereby observe trends and patterns that might not be obvious otherwise?

Would it hurt to share some of the info? And here i’m thinking in dumb funny info just because i’m in the mood of having a laugh with the data.

As examples:
How many players sold a legendary at a really cheap price by misstake? (150 gold instead of 1500 or something like that).
How many players destroyed precursors because they don’t know what they are?
How many times someone bough the same unique item because of lag or another reason?

You know, that kind of data that makes you smile in the morning ^^. I guess there is better ones but i’m sleepy at the moment.

As someone who is very much interested in a career in economics, how did you get involved in MMO economies? Also, what would you consider your basic day-to-day routine?

John Smith.4610:

AngelsShadow.7360:

As someone who is very much interested in a career in economics, how did you get involved in MMO economies? Also, what would you consider your basic day-to-day routine?

Step 1 is definitely play MMOs. Play them a lot, play many different types, be the best at them. Learn to understand them from every perspective, not just your own.

These are all of course suggestions that come from (and essentially describe) my personal opinions on the matter. You could, arguably, get a job without accomplishing these, but you’ll be much better at that job if you do.

Does that include understanding mmo socioeconomics, reward psychology, and how the two relate?

How do you feel about non item based trade, such as the selling of services, player to player.
like dunegeon completion, puzzle portals, guided tours, whatever else people can come up with.

Would you ever attempt to formalize the system?

John Smith.4610:

There is almost no data that I cannot link together for analysis.

This week I created a table composed of multiple in game interactions that was larger than 800 billion rows.

I think I might be suffering from data envy… we complain when our users start creating queries that contain a few million rows.

Question:

Concerning droprate adjustment and injecting new mats into the economy:

You stated several times that droprates for the most coveted items (salvage rates for ectos, precursor drop or forge rates) wont be adjusted (intentionally) without mentioning it in the patch notes.
How about other droprates, for example from loot/champ bags, regular drops of crafting mats from mobs etc.?

If you decide that a certain mat needs more supply, do you for example adjust the droprates on the loot table for t1-6 loot bags from wvw or champ bags because you have a big sample data of those and know how much drop on average each day or do you use reward mechanics of the next release that goes live to generate additional supply (for example through buried chests or LS chapter rewards in season 2)?

John Smith.4610:

Conncept.7638:

but there is no way you have the numbers to claim that the players think so, from a psychological perspective.

You’re adorable.

Economists have ways to measure how much your parents love you and the scariest part of all… it works.

But you didn’t answer the question. And no offence, but if you think the majority of people is satisfied, then why is my 400-member guild rooster always offline? Even I stopped playing because I have no goal in terms of obtainable items. Everything nice is just so depressing to get – I know it, it took me a full your before I finally received Dusk and avoided most of the dull farming of dungeons.

John Smith.4610:

Wanze.8410:

question about ecto salvage to dust

1. We were monitoring the situation for quite awhile, brainstorming solutions. I cannot take all the credit for that change either, Izzy is the genius in this situation. The change has worked exactly as we hoped it would.

Hi,

I understand that this change worked as intended to maintain the ecto price, and keep the dust price at a reasonable level that is probably fine for its crafting use (this : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pile_of_Crystalline_Dust/Discipline).

But when the change took place, I thought about another reason for it (something I had thought about before) : to me, dust is one important component of something that was great in the game design : gates between items/material types. To be more specific, T6 dust is the gate between t5 and t6 common/fine/rare mats. High-price dust simply takes that mechanic away from the game ! (this : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pile_of_Crystalline_Dust/Mystic_forge)

So when the change was made, I thought the goal was to unblock this mechanic. I was disappointed to see that the ecto=>dust conversion rate was far too low for this.

• When you say that the impact of ecto salvage is just as intended, does this include the role of dust in materials conversion ?
• Do you intentionally cripple the t5→t6 gate for economic reasons ? (or do you feel like this mechanic isn’t crippled at all)
• If ‘no’, do you think that unblocking this mechanic would benefit the economy (or at least casual players) ? (btw my idea here would be to change the recipes to 1 dust instead of 5. I may be wrong, but I don’t think such a change would really impact the dust/ecto economy since those have a tied price – dust=ecto/salvage-return – and the use for t5→t6 recipes is very low compared to all other dust/ecto uses)

This probably falls under the category of “questions you can’t answer”, but… given the proven poor value of the recent Tyrian Explorers Knapsack update to the gem store, is it simply that you feel adding an “Empty Box” item to the store for 100 gems is too gauche?

I kid, a more serious question regarding that might be, what goes into deciding what the precise value of items in the gem store should be and the balance between what an item may be actually worth in relation to similar items and what its price is set at? Are there times when something is priced at a point specifically to influence purchases of other things?

Also, add my name to the list of amazed and envious in regards to the massive amounts of data analysis and manipulation at your disposal.

John Smith.4610:

Step 3 don’t skimp on the extras, advanced statistics and programming. You want to know SQL and python (for now), but you’re way better off with a more fundamental programming education and that means c to c++ to c#, then branching to sql and python.

I apologize for the off topic question, but how difficult is python to learn?
I’ve dealt with C++, played around with C#, and currently working with classic ASP and ASP.NET.
I have been told that if I know C# I should be able to grasp basics. I didn’t know how accurate that was.

Atlas.9704:

John Smith.4610:

Step 3 don’t skimp on the extras, advanced statistics and programming. You want to know SQL and python (for now), but you’re way better off with a more fundamental programming education and that means c to c++ to c#, then branching to sql and python.

I apologize for the off topic question, but how difficult is python to learn?
I’ve dealt with C++, played around with C#, and currently working with classic ASP and ASP.NET.
I have been told that if I know C# I should be able to grasp basics. I didn’t know how accurate that was.

Having played around with Python I found it VERY easy to learn. It reminded me alot of GWbasic. Plus being able to import predefined “modules” is awesome and amazing! For example if you are trying to create an RNG type string you could just use “import random” and define the range of random numbers it can choose from. I think it would look something like “import random (100)” and it should generate a random number between 0 and 100.

It’s been awhile since I delved into it, but for much of the simple stuff it wasn’t complicated at all.

Python: “Hello world” = print “Hello world”

C#: “Hello world” = // Hello1.cs
public class Hello1
{
public static void Main()
{
System.Console.WriteLine(“Hello, World!”);
}
}

C++: “Hello World” =
#include <iostream>

int main()
{
std::cout << “Hello World!”;
}

John Smith.4610:

We have a big data solution to help me manage the obscene quantity of data involved. I have a mix of third party and proprietary tools, but one never fully escapes excel. I’m oldschool and have an unhealthy love for excel, though it has many limitations, so if I need to do more advanced statistics I need to use more serious software.

Excel <3

Anyway, so so glad to see engagement with the red-posts. Why’s this popular? Because FEEDBACK.
So, thanks for all the time you take on this, JS, and even going so far as to explain when policy limits your responses.

As for a question, would you be at liberty to discuss the growing gulf between gem-to-gold and gold-to-gem rates? There’s definitely a bit of perception-rancor that I wouldn’t be getting value for my gems relative to those using gold to purchase gems. It’s stopped me in the past from making that conversion.

Was it intended to be an additional gold sink or it is just a proportional effect to gold inflation? Does that gap lower the volatility of gem prices?

Atlas.9704:

I apologize for the off topic question, but how difficult is python to learn?
I’ve dealt with C++, played around with C#, and currently working with classic ASP and ASP.NET.
I have been told that if I know C# I should be able to grasp basics. I didn’t know how accurate that was.

Python is orders of magnitude easier to learn that C++, C#, or any other language. Basically, if you know how to write a program in a “pseudo code”, then you know how to handle Python. The rest can be found in the online documentation.

Two caveats:

• Python will ruin you for every other programming language you know or learn after it, and you will become notorious among your colleagues for constantly using phrases like: “Well, that sounds complicated in <other language X>. In Python, all you have to do is …”
• Use a proper editor (or even better a proper IDE) that knows the difference between a a “space” and a “tab” right from the start to avoid early confusion. I am old-school so I still use emacs in python-mode, but I am pretty sure that there are better choices available.

~MRA

(edit:) A must-read when starting to learn Python is PEP 20 — The Zen of Python.

John Smith.4610:

The gold/gem rates have very little to do with gold inflation inside the game.

Ok, I’m not the best at economics, so please explain me what of the following is wrong:

Game Inflation:
More Money in the game, so players have more gold to spend on items,
but Item quantity stay the same -> prices go up.

Players want things in the gemstore, but don’t want to spend real money -> they convert gold to gems (Gem is kind of an item).

The more gold the players have, the more they are willing to spend on gems
-> gemprices go up.

So in my opinion the gemprices reflect inflation to a high degree (maybe not totally because it depends also on the gemstore itself, if it has good offers people want the things more and the prices go up, if it has bad offers people don’t convert much, so prices are stable (history shows: gemprices never really fall ), but for the most part
I think it does.

Hopefully you can explain it to me more

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

John Smith.4610:

The gold/gem rates have very little to do with gold inflation inside the game.

Ok, I’m not the best at economics, so please explain me what of the following is wrong:

Game Inflation:
More Money in the game, so players have more gold to spend on items,
but Item quantity stay the same -> prices go up.

Players want things in the gemstore, but don’t want to spend real money -> they convert gold to gems (Gem is kind of an item).

The more gold the players have, the more they are willing to spend on gems
-> gemprices go up.

So in my opinion the gemprices reflect inflation to a high degree (maybe not totally because it depends also on the gemstore itself, if it has good offers people want the things more and the prices go up, if it has bad offers people don’t convert much, so prices are stable (history shows: gemprices never really fall ), but for the most part
I think it does.

Hopefully you can explain it to me more

From what I understand, the reason for the price increase on items, (I’m sure you are refering to T6 mats and precursers) is not because of inflation, and more people having more money, is that these items are in much higher demand. More people have been leveling their crafting to 500, making legendaries, and ascended. As more people are willing to pay a higher price, these prices will naturally rise.

As far as gold > gem, and gem > gold prices is concerned. There is a set amount of gems that are added to and drawn from when people either buy gems and convert to gold, or use gold to buy gems. The more people use gold to buy gems, it does remove gold from the game, but increases the the price for gems. The more people use RL money to buy gems, and convert to gold, the price goes down. The reason we are seeing higher prices in the gold to gem conversion side, is that more people are buying gems with gold, creating an “imbalance” (if you will) of the gold to gem price.

hope this helps

pdavis.8031:

As far as gold > gem, and gem > gold prices is concerned. There is a set amount of gems that are added to and drawn from when people either buy gems and convert to gold, or use gold to buy gems. The more people use gold to buy gems, it does remove gold from the game, but increases the the price for gems. The more people use RL money to buy gems, and convert to gold, the price goes down. The reason we are seeing higher prices in the gold to gem conversion side, is that more people are buying gems with gold, creating an “imbalance” (if you will) of the gold to gem price.

hope this helps

This helped

pdavis.8031:

From what I understand, the reason for the price increase on items, (I’m sure you are refering to T6 mats and precursers) is not because of inflation, and more people having more money, is that these items are in much higher demand. More people have been leveling their crafting to 500, making legendaries, and ascended. As more people are willing to pay a higher price, these prices will naturally rise.

The “prices go up cuz of more gold” was ment more generally

John Smith.4610:

I’m not sure what you mean by growing gulf between the rates, the gulf has always been the same.

The gold/gem rates have very little to do with gold inflation inside the game.

To clarify with some basic (albeit third party) info:
100 gems sells for 9 g .
100 gems costs 12 g 46 s to buy.
Source http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

Pretty sure the gap wasn’t 3.4 gold at launch. Though that’s in absolute terms. Is there a calculated percentage in the algorithm to handle the difference that makes this difference relative?

Or, parallel to that, is it based on acceleration/deceleration of gem supply, similar to how sometimes buy orders and available sales are sometimes very close together and sometimes much further apart?

Rauderi.8706:

John Smith.4610:

I’m not sure what you mean by growing gulf between the rates, the gulf has always been the same.

The gold/gem rates have very little to do with gold inflation inside the game.

To clarify with some basic (albeit third party) info:
100 gems sells for 9 g .
100 gems costs 12 g 46 s to buy.
Source http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

Pretty sure the gap wasn’t 3.4 gold at launch. Though that’s in absolute terms. Is there a calculated percentage in the algorithm to handle the difference that makes this difference relative?

Or, parallel to that, is it based on acceleration/deceleration of gem supply, similar to how sometimes buy orders and available sales are sometimes very close together and sometimes much further apart?

The gap is and always been 27.75%. Or another way of putting it the Gem to Gold rate is 72.25% of the Gold to Gem rate. 72.25% is 85% squared. To me that implies that gold is sunk going in and coming out of the exchange.

I do have a question. And it has nothing to do with the pieces of armour clogging up my bank with their delicious Strength Runes trapped inside them.

What is the reason for making WvWvW and Karma gear unsalvagable? I presume that it is for economic reasons; you don’t what people using karma and badges to make money. But surely the amount of money that could be generated by such methods would be quite insignificant? Furthermore, if this was a concern, why not have such gear drop karma or badges when salvaged, as opposed to leather/ore/cloth?

I know you can’t comment on the gem store or I’d also ask why the Upgrade Extractor is so unattractively priced.

Galen.9042:

I know you can’t comment on the gem store or I’d also ask why the Upgrade Extractor is so unattractively priced.

The upgrade extractor is intended for infusions, not sigils/runes.

I also have a question,

Is there any practices that you have implemented in the Chinese economy of Guild Wars, which is a completely different client, that are noticeably different or that you believe that we could improve by looking at a separate economy or that they could Improve from us?

Note:
-PLEASE PLEASE consider putting in those crafting backpacks that are only on the China Client QQ

Behellagh.1468:

Rauderi.8706:

John Smith.4610:

I’m not sure what you mean by growing gulf between the rates, the gulf has always been the same.

The gold/gem rates have very little to do with gold inflation inside the game.

To clarify with some basic (albeit third party) info:
100 gems sells for 9 g .
100 gems costs 12 g 46 s to buy.
Source http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

Pretty sure the gap wasn’t 3.4 gold at launch. Though that’s in absolute terms. Is there a calculated percentage in the algorithm to handle the difference that makes this difference relative?

Or, parallel to that, is it based on acceleration/deceleration of gem supply, similar to how sometimes buy orders and available sales are sometimes very close together and sometimes much further apart?

The gap is and always been 27.75%. Or another way of putting it the Gem to Gold rate is 72.25% of the Gold to Gem rate. 72.25% is 85% squared. To me that implies that gold is sunk going in and coming out of the exchange.

I suspected something similar. Still seems like a bit of a rip-off, but having the gold sink is a good thing.

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

John Smith.4610:

The gold/gem rates have very little to do with gold inflation inside the game.

Ok, I’m not the best at economics, so please explain me what of the following is wrong:

Game Inflation:
More Money in the game, so players have more gold to spend on items,
but Item quantity stay the same -> prices go up.

Players want things in the gemstore, but don’t want to spend real money -> they convert gold to gems (Gem is kind of an item).

The more gold the players have, the more they are willing to spend on gems
-> gemprices go up.

So in my opinion the gemprices reflect inflation to a high degree (maybe not totally because it depends also on the gemstore itself, if it has good offers people want the things more and the prices go up, if it has bad offers people don’t convert much, so prices are stable (history shows: gemprices never really fall ), but for the most part
I think it does.

Hopefully you can explain it to me more

the gold to gem exchange will reflect how valuable people find ingame money versus how valuable they find gemstore money. Or more directly how much gold comes in, versus how much gems come in.
While inflation may have an effect, it is not the primary factor.

For example if gold was inflated, but the only thing in the gem store was karma boosters, you would still find that gold would be way more valuable than gems.

Rauderi.8706:

Behellagh.1468:

Rauderi.8706:

John Smith.4610:

I’m not sure what you mean by growing gulf between the rates, the gulf has always been the same.

The gold/gem rates have very little to do with gold inflation inside the game.

To clarify with some basic (albeit third party) info:
100 gems sells for 9 g .
100 gems costs 12 g 46 s to buy.
Source http://www.gw2spidy.com/gem

Pretty sure the gap wasn’t 3.4 gold at launch. Though that’s in absolute terms. Is there a calculated percentage in the algorithm to handle the difference that makes this difference relative?

Or, parallel to that, is it based on acceleration/deceleration of gem supply, similar to how sometimes buy orders and available sales are sometimes very close together and sometimes much further apart?

The gap is and always been 27.75%. Or another way of putting it the Gem to Gold rate is 72.25% of the Gold to Gem rate. 72.25% is 85% squared. To me that implies that gold is sunk going in and coming out of the exchange.

I suspected something similar. Still seems like a bit of a rip-off, but having the gold sink is a good thing.

its unknown whether its sunk or not, i imagine its there more for the purpose of stabilzing risk of fluctuations and giving anet more profit per transactions, much like real currency exchanges charge fees

Wanze.8410:

Galen.9042:

I know you can’t comment on the gem store or I’d also ask why the Upgrade Extractor is so unattractively priced.

The upgrade extractor is intended for infusions, not sigils/runes.

If that were the case they’d be called infusion extractors, more specifically >+9 infusion extractors*. Remember back when they were introduced there were other upgrades that cost more than the extractors given the exchange. If we based their intention on fluctuating market prices, then we wouldn’t be able to say they were intended for one thing or another as over time the values could change resulting in contradictory intentions.

The upgrade extractors are intended for……wait for it……upgrades, which includes more by definition than just infusions. Value of those upgrades is a secondary issue.

*denotes subjectivity to changing prices

Wanze.8410:

Galen.9042:

I know you can’t comment on the gem store or I’d also ask why the Upgrade Extractor is so unattractively priced.

The upgrade extractor is intended for infusions, not sigils/runes.

Then why isn’t there another, cheaper option to remove sigils/runes from karma/WvWvW gear?

Galen.9042:

Wanze.8410:

Galen.9042:

I know you can’t comment on the gem store or I’d also ask why the Upgrade Extractor is so unattractively priced.

The upgrade extractor is intended for infusions, not sigils/runes.

Then why isn’t there another, cheaper option to remove sigils/runes from karma/WvWvW gear?

If there was one available for like 50 gems/5g, everybody would buy it with gold to extract runes/sigils that cost more than 5g. In the process, gems would get more expensive and the runes/sigils would get cheaper on the tp until a point is reached that it is not profitable anymore to buy the extractor with gold.
We would be at square one again, with an inflated gold/gem ratio.

Wanze.8410:

Galen.9042:

Wanze.8410:

Galen.9042:

I know you can’t comment on the gem store or I’d also ask why the Upgrade Extractor is so unattractively priced.

The upgrade extractor is intended for infusions, not sigils/runes.

Then why isn’t there another, cheaper option to remove sigils/runes from karma/WvWvW gear?

If there was one available for like 50 gems/5g, everybody would buy it with gold to extract runes/sigils that cost more than 5g. In the process, gems would get more expensive and the runes/sigils would get cheaper on the tp until a point is reached that it is not profitable anymore to buy the extractor with gold.
We would be at square one again, with an inflated gold/gem ratio.

this is a bit oversimplified,
first of all gem value is based on the value of many products, not just one product, even should extraction become a big seller, it would not probably raise the overall value of gems that much
2nd, most sigil/rune resuse on expensive runes are rare anyhow. Mostly because of the assoicated cost, by having runes be able to be removed, it might actually increase the value of many runes.
Essentially by making something accessible, you can actually at times increase the demand.

Really you have to look at it the whole product, I dont think this product, with its design would work as you describe.

That said regardless, any price set in gems is going to be fairly innacurate over time. The value of gems/gold changes all the time.

In truth some of these items should be in game gold sinks, increasing the demand for gold in game does not hurt their bottomline, and it provides reusable and choosable sinks for players.

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Galen.9042:

I know you can’t comment on the gem store or I’d also ask why the Upgrade Extractor is so unattractively priced.

The upgrade extractor is intended for infusions, not sigils/runes.

If that were the case they’d be called infusion extractors, more specifically >+9 infusion extractors*. Remember back when they were introduced there were other upgrades that cost more than the extractors given the exchange. If we based their intention on fluctuating market prices, then we wouldn’t be able to say they were intended for one thing or another as over time the values could change resulting in contradictory intentions.

The upgrade extractors are intended for……wait for it……upgrades, which includes more by definition than just infusions. Value of those upgrades is a secondary issue.

*denotes subjectivity to changing prices

Semantics Forum is this way —->

If you don’t want me correcting your semantics….it’s really easy, don’t start with them in the first place. It’s not rocket science.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Galen.9042:

Wanze.8410:

Galen.9042:

I know you can’t comment on the gem store or I’d also ask why the Upgrade Extractor is so unattractively priced.

The upgrade extractor is intended for infusions, not sigils/runes.

Then why isn’t there another, cheaper option to remove sigils/runes from karma/WvWvW gear?

If there was one available for like 50 gems/5g, everybody would buy it with gold to extract runes/sigils that cost more than 5g. In the process, gems would get more expensive and the runes/sigils would get cheaper on the tp until a point is reached that it is not profitable anymore to buy the extractor with gold.
We would be at square one again, with an inflated gold/gem ratio.

this is a bit oversimplified,
first of all gem value is based on the value of many products, not just one product, even should extraction become a big seller, it would not probably raise the overall value of gems that much
2nd, most sigil/rune resuse on expensive runes are rare anyhow. Mostly because of the assoicated cost, by having runes be able to be removed, it might actually increase the value of many runes.
Essentially by making something accessible, you can actually at times increase the demand.

Really you have to look at it the whole product, I dont think this product, with its design would work as you describe.

That said regardless, any price set in gems is going to be fairly innacurate over time. The value of gems/gold changes all the time.

In truth some of these items should be in game gold sinks, increasing the demand for gold in game does not hurt their bottomline, and it provides reusable and choosable sinks for players.

Point is, that the Upgrade extractor is not unattractively priced, the user just expected to make a “gold” bargain by buying it with gold. It makes sense to buy it for high agony infusions, where you cant really influence the market price with it (afaik infusions become account bound after extracting) or utility infusions. I rather spend the gold for the extractor than spending 20 laurels for a new one. If Anet makes the extractor available for a flat gold price in game, they effectively put a price ceiling on all rune/sigil prices, which could become a problem over time with general inflation because it will not only affect runes and sigils but also prices for materials that are used to craft them.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Galen.9042:

Wanze.8410:

Galen.9042:

I know you can’t comment on the gem store or I’d also ask why the Upgrade Extractor is so unattractively priced.

The upgrade extractor is intended for infusions, not sigils/runes.

Then why isn’t there another, cheaper option to remove sigils/runes from karma/WvWvW gear?

If there was one available for like 50 gems/5g, everybody would buy it with gold to extract runes/sigils that cost more than 5g. In the process, gems would get more expensive and the runes/sigils would get cheaper on the tp until a point is reached that it is not profitable anymore to buy the extractor with gold.
We would be at square one again, with an inflated gold/gem ratio.

this is a bit oversimplified,
first of all gem value is based on the value of many products, not just one product, even should extraction become a big seller, it would not probably raise the overall value of gems that much
2nd, most sigil/rune resuse on expensive runes are rare anyhow. Mostly because of the assoicated cost, by having runes be able to be removed, it might actually increase the value of many runes.
Essentially by making something accessible, you can actually at times increase the demand.

Really you have to look at it the whole product, I dont think this product, with its design would work as you describe.

That said regardless, any price set in gems is going to be fairly innacurate over time. The value of gems/gold changes all the time.

In truth some of these items should be in game gold sinks, increasing the demand for gold in game does not hurt their bottomline, and it provides reusable and choosable sinks for players.

Point is, that the Upgrade extractor is not unattractively priced, the user just expected to make a “gold” bargain by buying it with gold. It makes sense to buy it for high agony infusions, where you cant really influence the market price with it (afaik infusions become account bound after extracting) or utility infusions. I rather spend the gold for the extractor than spending 20 laurels for a new one. If Anet makes the extractor available for a flat gold price in game, they effectively put a price ceiling on all rune/sigil prices, which could become a problem over time with general inflation because it will not only affect runes and sigils but also prices for materials that are used to craft them.

Its would not be a cieling on rune prices any more than 1/25th of a black lion salvage kit is a cieling.

If anything extractor use effects armor destruction more than rune/sigil prices.

The only people that might use extractor are those trapped with sigil/runes in karma gear andvpeople with ascended.

Question:

I dont know how involved you have been with the chinese version of the client but in terms of game economics/mechanics (for example crafting or forge recipes), was there something that was implemented differently than in the US/NA client?
I know that you cant comment on future changes, so i dont want to know which changes might be coming over to us but maybe there is something that you handled differently over there because the market and economy was starting from scratch and when implementing it over here, it would cause too much upset to price equilibriums.

I’ve always wondered what drives the Gold to Gems conversion rate? I remember someone (you?) stating it started with a large pool of Gems and no Gold. Now, almost two years later it would seem to have changed to the other way around.

I would expect when we spend our converted Gems at the gem store they go to Bit Heaven and now are out of circulation. So, where do new Gems come from that affect the conversion rate? If players convert Gem into Gold that adds back into the pool right?

Not complaining at all. In fact, the Gold to Gem exchange has always seemed more than fair as a concept regardless of the exchange rate or other white noise in the system. As a player I commend both you and Anet for supporting the Exchange. But I am curious under what conditions does the Gem Pool expand?

Thanks John, you do a stellar job keeping the economy humming along and show your commitment to fair play with posting in threads like this. Much applause.

-M

MFoy.3284:

I’ve always wondered what drives the Gold to Gems conversion rate? I remember someone (you?) stating it started with a large pool of Gems and no Gold. Now, almost two years later it would seem to have changed to the other way around.

I would expect when we spend our converted Gems at the gem store they go to Bit Heaven and now are out of circulation. So, where do new Gems come from that affect the conversion rate? If players convert Gem into Gold that adds back into the pool right?

Not complaining at all. In fact, the Gold to Gem exchange has always seemed more than fair as a concept regardless of the exchange rate or other white noise in the system. As a player I commend both you and Anet for supporting the Exchange. But I am curious under what conditions does the Gem Pool expand?

Thanks John, you do a stellar job keeping the economy humming along and show your commitment to fair play with posting in threads like this. Much applause.

-M

It was answered in a recent thread in the subforum and to can also look back in John’s posts towards the beginning to see his answer. Less people are converting gems to gold compared to those converting gold to gems which is why you see that conversion rate how it is. Buying gems to purchase the gem store items have no impact on the conversion rates.