Guild Wars 2

Gene Archer.8560:

Fenrir.3609:

And it has been pointed out why that notion is a bad one.

Yeah, just bit ago, by you, on this page.

Fenrir.3609:

“Effort” and risk rewards more than “effort”.

Agreed. So now the question is: How do we quantify risk? What is the risk for each activity in the game and how does one decide what is more of a risk than the other.

-snipped the rest cause it’s the same general idea, also the part that didn’t apply to me-

“Effort” is hard to quantify, risk, skill and competition are not. I’d say it is fairly obvious that someone risking 5% of 1000g worth of transactions is risking more than some guy who might possibly face 3s worth or armour repairs.

Regardless, the point is that saying that “equal effort should give equal rewards” is inherently incorrect.

If I am repeating myself, I apologise, it is Friday and perhaps the last glass of wine is hitting home!

Schizo.1375:

munkiman.3068:

Do you honestly believe that there would even be one for sale for 2000 gold (or even 1000g) if there weren’t people with enough earning potential to pay that price in a reasonable amount of time?

I do think so considering the amount of materials that go into crafting it and how much those materials cost. Have you seen the breakdown of one of those things?
http://www.bravevesperia.com/

The breakdown of cost of a group of crafting materials is also a factor, but realize that the wealthy really don’t care, they don’t need to. If i know i can easily afford to buy everything i need to make myself a killing selling a legendary, would you even remotely think i’d be worried that the average player is paying a much higher amount of their earnings to do the same? Also realize, the pre is a large part of the cost as well as what we have 0 control over, things like clovers and icy runestones. Would a pre be that much gold if there weren’t regular buyers/traders of it? Of course there is supply and demand to include in the entire equation, but an unregulated market typically shows price variants at extreme levels which help keep the rich, rich. Buy low, sell high.

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

We need to know why we are looking for a wealth gap. What is it’s significance?

John Smith.4610:

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

I do believe that there is a wealth gap but the wealth gap is explainable. I do not believe it is from people trading on the trading post. If I were to look for the effects of disproportionate wealth I would look at the following data points.

1.) Number of Legendary’s or High Value items that a account has in the top few percent of wealth(amount of gold) vs those of the bottom percentile.

I suspect that the people in the higher percentile of wealth don’t have the High Value items that everyone is going after. I say this because I think that those who have wealth typically are the savers not the people that go after shines.

B) Playtime vs Net Value of account.

I suspect those accounts of high Net Value also have high playtime then those of low Net Value.

C) I would also look at the number of trades of the top percentile vs that of the lower percentile.

I think that I would find that high volume of trades actually decreases income in most cases not increases it. So the people with the high amount of gold would actually not necessarily be those that have the most trades on a account. I think this is due to the Guild Wars 2 market is mostly a speculative market. Buy and hold is typically better then Buy Low Sell High. The exception is those that know a LOT about what is happening and are good at making educated guesses.

I think someone should create a guild called Ascalonian Conspiracy Theorists [ACT].

munkiman.3068:

If i know i can easily afford to buy everything i need to make myself a killing selling a legendary, would you even remotely think i’d be worried that the average player is paying a much higher amount of their earnings to do the same? Also realize, the pre is a large part of the cost as well as what we have 0 control over, things like clovers and icy runestones. Would a pre be that much gold if there weren’t regular buyers/traders of it?

I think you need to view the post that Wanze made a couple pages back. It has data that shows there aren’t wealthy people that are trading in legendaries to make a killing. Or precursors.

Edit: Here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Increasing-trading-post-tax/3881379

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

How would you define the wealth gap?

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.

Would you mind if I msg’d you about the matter?

Schizo.1375:

What is being argued is that there is no way the usual PvE grinds are nearly the same amount of effort required.

For who, though? Every person is different. Every person has differing skill levels, strengths, and weaknesses. And on top of that, effort is just a serious attempt at doing something.

Some people understand the TP easily because they’re good at market trends and math and that other fun stuff. They can do the TP in their sleep. For them it is effortless, but they can still do far better in the gold department than someone who struggles and puts a lot of effort into dungeons, because they aren’t good at dungeons.

Would you say that’s fair? The bad dungeon runner is also taking risks. They’re struggling and working. They’re putting in effort to get better. They’re doing build research and dungeon video research. If their armor breaks enough times, they can completely negate the 1-2 gold they’d otherwise be getting for successful completion. Why is their effort and work worth less? Because someone else finds dungeons to be a cakewalk?

Just because PVE/Dungeons/Whatever are easy for you doesn’t mean that they’re easy for everyone. And there’s no reason that what you find easy should be the only bar to go by.

You’re the only one that acknowledged my suggestions, so I want your opinion, Shizo. Ignore the whole “TP is evil” or whatever. Just taking into consideration that people want to reach the stuff they like in a timely manner so they can enjoy it, whether that be amassing gold, or getting skins or items. Do you see any problems with my suggestion? (The real suggestion, the one I worked on that you were trying to help knock out the kinks of)

Are there any meaningful negatives you can think of?

william dj.6953:

My single biggest problem with the complaints about tp barons is. They don’t deserve it.

But see, the problem is that deciding what is deserved is entirely subjective. You say people don’t deserve it, but who are you to decide that? What makes you the authority of what is deserved compared to someone who says "TP Barons don’t deserve what they make because they aren’t playing the game. They’re just sitting in LA or Hoelbrak (though to be fair, we all know nobody sits in Hoebrak)

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.

Would you mind if I msg’d you about the matter?

You can if you want but it makes me worry that you don’t want to post it for critique.

It is actually feasible to present an argument as to why wealth disparity is hurtful to the game’s economy without having proof or numbers that wealth disparity even exists. If wealth disparity can be presented as harmful, then it can be determined whether the disparity exists in the game. And once it is determined to exist in the game, then it can be determined how it occurred and solutions presented to resolve the disparity.

So is one player having more wealth than other players hurtful to the game’s economy?

I could only think of one way that a large wealth disparity could impact the economy:

Controlling trading markets. (this is theoretical with a large enough wealth disparity and incentive to do it, regardless of whether it has or can occur currently)

So, if wealth disparity exists to the extent that this can occur, what should the solution revolve around?

1. Fix the trading post so that manipulation is impossible.
2. Correct the ability to accumulate wealth to the point where the wealth disparity can not occur.
3. Take actions within the market to resolve the ability for it to continue to be manipulated.

Option 1.
The one idea I have seen presented that would correct it would be to have items account-bound on purchase. The discussion is varied and extensive and was based on reducing income made from the TP. It would be the most effective method of reducing the ability to manipulate a market since there wouldn’t be any direct buying and reselling of the same items. However, the drawbacks to the implementation would be so extensive that market manipulation might be preferable.

Option 2.
Assuming that the TP is the fastest, most efficient, and least risky way to make money for any and every player, there are multiple avenues of using the TP to make money. Each method would need to be “balanced” to make sure that a player wouldn’t move from one method to another and continue the wealth disparity.

Even if the methods could be balanced amongst themselves as well as with other methods of earning gold in the game, there would always be players that have more time to spend in the game. This creates an automatic and continual wealth disparity over time.

Then there is the ability to convert gems to gold. Gold will always be prevalent in the game regardless of any method to try to prevent it.

Option 3.
This is the most favorable option. And it seems that this is the one that has been done before to correct an imbalance (not necessarily market manipulation), as seen with the precursor drop changes. It is also a more effective way to eliminate the ability to manipulate markets rather than limit an individual’s ability to accumulate gold. While it doesn’t prevent market manipulation, it can correct it. It can also be used as a tool to positively effect the economy by increasing supply of a desirable object and satisfying demand, which effectively sinks more gold that was generated from anything unrelated to the TP.

TLDR;
Data isn’t required to present a hypothesis.
Hypothesis: Wealth disparity could only potentially harm the economy if players could control markets on the TP.
Markets can not be controlled due to protections currently in place to increase supply of items where imbalances occur.
Thus: Wealth disparity can not hurt the economy.

Should there be a wealth gap from someone who plays 1-2 hours a week vs someone who plays 4-6 hrs a day? there will be wealth gaps that have nothing to do with tp.

@Gene Archer

Why does it need to be fair?

brittitude.1983:

It is actually feasible to present an argument as to why wealth disparity is hurtful to the game’s economy without having proof or numbers that wealth disparity even exists. If wealth disparity can be presented as harmful, then it can be determined whether the disparity exists in the game. And once it is determined to exist in the game, then it can be determined how it occurred and solutions presented to resolve the disparity.

So is one player having more wealth than other players hurtful to the game’s economy?

I could only think of one way that a large wealth disparity could impact the economy:

Controlling trading markets. (this is theoretical with a large enough wealth disparity and incentive to do it, regardless of whether it has or can occur currently)

So, if wealth disparity exists to the extent that this can occur, what should the solution revolve around?

1. Fix the trading post so that manipulation is impossible.
2. Correct the ability to accumulate wealth to the point where the wealth disparity can not occur.
3. Take actions within the market to resolve the ability for it to continue to be manipulated.

Option 1.
The one idea I have seen presented that would correct it would be to have items account-bound on purchase. The discussion is varied and extensive and was based on reducing income made from the TP. It would be the most effective method of reducing the ability to manipulate a market since there wouldn’t be any direct buying and reselling of the same items. However, the drawbacks to the implementation would be so extensive that market manipulation might be preferable.

Option 2.
Assuming that the TP is the fastest, most efficient, and least risky way to make money for any and every player, there are multiple avenues of using the TP to make money. Each method would need to be “balanced” to make sure that a player wouldn’t move from one method to another and continue the wealth disparity.

Even if the methods could be balanced amongst themselves as well as with other methods of earning gold in the game, there would always be players that have more time to spend in the game. This creates an automatic and continual wealth disparity over time.

Then there is the ability to convert gems to gold. Gold will always be prevalent in the game regardless of any method to try to prevent it.

Option 3.
This is the most favorable option. And it seems that this is the one that has been done before to correct an imbalance (not necessarily market manipulation), as seen with the precursor drop changes. It is also a more effective way to eliminate the ability to manipulate markets rather than limit an individual’s ability to accumulate gold. While it doesn’t prevent market manipulation, it can correct it. It can also be used as a tool to positively effect the economy by increasing supply of a desirable object and satisfying demand, which effectively sinks more gold that was generated from anything unrelated to the TP.

TLDR;
Data isn’t required to present a hypothesis.
Hypothesis: Wealth disparity could only potentially harm the economy if players could control markets on the TP.
Markets can not be controlled due to protections currently in place to increase supply of items where imbalances occur.
Thus: Wealth disparity can not hurt the economy.

Here’s the kicker. It is not solely limited to the economy. It impacts the game as a whole. ie economy =/= the whole of the game

Schizo.1375:

munkiman.3068:

If i know i can easily afford to buy everything i need to make myself a killing selling a legendary, would you even remotely think i’d be worried that the average player is paying a much higher amount of their earnings to do the same? Also realize, the pre is a large part of the cost as well as what we have 0 control over, things like clovers and icy runestones. Would a pre be that much gold if there weren’t regular buyers/traders of it?

I think you need to view the post that Wanze made a couple pages back. It has data that shows there aren’t wealthy people that are trading in legendaries to make a killing. Or precursors.

Edit: Here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Increasing-trading-post-tax/3881379

Sorry, i’m not saying anything of the sort. First, TP barrons don’t play the high risk high reward game very often unless they know they have a pretty sure thing. It’s dumb to even consider that a) a flipper wants to kill his own lucrative income by thinking they can corner a market and b) that high-risk flips are a staple of any successful flippers game. No, quite the opposite, players are most likely selling off to buy orders for a couple reasons. 1) they don’t have enough in the listing fee to sell it off at a higher price and 2) they want instant gratification. I’m only using high ticket items as a gauge of income, either from the average player or the TP baron.

My example i posted earlier of how high the gem to gold rate continues to climb shows a couple things. 1) that there are a significant few player able to gobble up gems with gold and 2) even in small amounts the average player is still willing to do the conversion for new stuffs. But realize, i feel it a combo of both. I could even possibly link a video of a player with 1000’s of gold that bought BL keys, just because he could open 100’s of chests.

In a game that is controlled by a developer has this sort of drastic disparity between the rich and the poor in such a short time, cannot see a problem with that, i really don’t know what to say.

The Meat Wagon.7194:

@Gene Archer

Why does it need to be fair?

Because the moment you say it doesn’t need to be fair, you validate the idea that it’s okay for gold to be straight up ripped from rich players and handed out to poor players.

In other words, see my comment below.

william dj.6953:

then we have to deal with words like fairness. Which all I want to say is fair shmair, lifes not fair get used to it. and lets be honest, we may not like it. But that is the way it is.

You’re right, life isn’t fair. So since life isn’t fair, there’s nothing wrong with just straight up taking gold from the rich and handing it the poor, much less making it so TP barons lose the ability to make massive amounts of gold. So forget my suggestion, let’s just do one of those.

william dj.6953:

@Gene Archer.8560 Please re read. I never said no one or someone did or did not deserve anything. I was complaining about others saying someone didn’t deserve something.

I have no right to claim what someone deserves. I don’t know what they did to acquire w/e they have. But certainly no one has the right to say what I deserve without know what I did to acquire w/e I have.

Please do not be one of those people to say someone said something when they did not.

My apologies, I did misread, mainly because “deserve” is one of the things that a lot of people on the opposite ideals of my own say.

Essence Snow.3194:

Here’s the kicker. It is not solely limited to the economy. It impacts the game as a whole. ie economy =/= the whole of the game

How does wealth disparity impact the whole of the game?

In creating my hypothesis, and subsequently disproving it, I considered how one player having all the gold in the game could affect other players.

For the TP, the only factor I could think of was manipulating/controlling markets.

The other was for WvW. I could envision a sea of Alpha Siege Golems roaming all the maps effectively taking complete control for that week. I’m sure if this happened, something would be done to limit the number available per world per map, which would then negate any impact unlimited resources would provide.

Otherwise, I can’t think how unlimited money would otherwise be able to significantly affect other players. Or ,in your opinion, is it also all players != the whole of the game?

Gene Archer.8560:

The Meat Wagon.7194:

@Gene Archer

Why does it need to be fair?

Because the moment you say it doesn’t need to be fair, you validate the idea that it’s okay for gold to be straight up ripped from rich players and handed out to poor players.

In other words, see my comment below.

william dj.6953:

then we have to deal with words like fairness. Which all I want to say is fair shmair, lifes not fair get used to it. and lets be honest, we may not like it. But that is the way it is.

You’re right, life isn’t fair. So since life isn’t fair, there’s nothing wrong with just straight up taking gold from the rich and handing it the poor, much less making it so TP barons lose the ability to make massive amounts of gold. So forget my suggestion, let’s just do one of those.

How does saying it doesn’t need to be fair validate that?

Here what I want from the stats: I want to know how many players flip stuff, and what percentage of trades that is.

Doesn’t need to be an accurate figure, just a ball-park will do.

As to how to get that… It’s too late for me to properly engage my brain but I’m thinking get a month moving average of every players buys and sells for each item, and compare the variance between the number brought and sold. A flipper will be selling a similar number to what they brought, and a “normal” player will have most items being either mostly brought or mostly sold.

And then break it down by market. (EG T1 mats, dyes, weapons, etc)

If flippers only count for a few percent of trades, then who cares. If they are 90% then it’s a very important issue. A figure could be interesting though.

william dj.6953:

@munkiman.3068, Do I think someone can make what some would say is a shameful amount of gold working the tp. Absolutely. I know this for a fact. Having multiple accounts and made more than I will most likely ever spend. It would never cross my mind to say exactly how much gold I have. imo it is no ones business. But then I’m not one who must have every shiny out there.

My single biggest problem with the complaints about tp barons is. They don’t deserve it. For someone to know this to be a fact. They must first know how much time, effort, hours or learning the tp how much gold was lost in the process. The fact is they do not. They continue to make claims based on nothing more than assumption. Then attempt to pass it off as complete and all knowing facts. When in fact, by making claims about barons imo they are essentially lying.

then we have to deal with words like fairness. Which all I want to say is fair shmair, lifes not fair get used to it. and lets be honest, we may not like it. But that is the way it is.
words like, equal to. first one would have to know what to add from the other side to be able to even find what is “equal to”. Since no one knows the numbers from the other side, how can they even use that word in their argument?

About the ori node. If the ori node was bugged and you farmed it for 24 hours certainly I would say it was an exploit. If anet put one in the game made it accessible to everyone (like the tp) I would say absolutely not.

Every process in this game comes with downfalls/pitfallls. learning how to trade effectively does take some effort but i will say, you don’t need to be a genius to earn money faster than any other rate of actually plying the game allows. buy low sell high, period, it’s an unregulated market. You’ll make mistakes, but those mistakes far outweigh any gains you would ultimately earn.

I completely agree with the fact that an aggressive competitive market would solve 99.9% of the “problems” that TP barons can and do cause in certain situation (please don’t beat this dead horse). However, it really doesn’t matter. The bottom line is that with maybe a few hours (if you have 0 idea of the market and how it works) can easily, practically risk free, earn far more money than simple playing the content, there is a problem. A pretty drastic one at that.

Take my endless ori example or even the more realistic snowflake one. I can produce ecto all day long (or ori). For next to no more effort than i made 50s (effort in this case = time) just turning bags. Again if the naysayers dont see this as a problem, then i got nothing.

brittitude.1983:

Essence Snow.3194:

Here’s the kicker. It is not solely limited to the economy. It impacts the game as a whole. ie economy =/= the whole of the game

How does wealth disparity impact the whole of the game?

In creating my hypothesis, and subsequently disproving it, I considered how one player having all the gold in the game could affect other players.

For the TP, the only factor I could think of was manipulating/controlling markets.

The other was for WvW. I could envision a sea of Alpha Siege Golems roaming all the maps effectively taking complete control for that week. I’m sure if this happened, something would be done to limit the number available per world per map, which would then negate any impact unlimited resources would provide.

Otherwise, I can’t think how unlimited money would otherwise be able to significantly affect other players. Or ,in your opinion, is it also all players != the whole of the game?

Ahh…good question! That is in fact where it gets tricky. Where proving turns into providing a case for. Where correlations to prior occurrences become our best predictors of future outcomes.

Tbh it will take a lot of thought, research, and time to fully answer that, which is part of the reason I asked to msg JS regaridng it.

I would be curious to know all of the ways that gold is introduced into the economy and all of the ways that gold is permanently removed from the economy. I would also like to know how much gold is generated per day and how much is removed per day. I think it would be an important factor in determining anything, really, since gold is what we’re discussing right now.

Essence Snow.3194:

brittitude.1983:

Essence Snow.3194:

Here’s the kicker. It is not solely limited to the economy. It impacts the game as a whole. ie economy =/= the whole of the game

How does wealth disparity impact the whole of the game?

In creating my hypothesis, and subsequently disproving it, I considered how one player having all the gold in the game could affect other players.

For the TP, the only factor I could think of was manipulating/controlling markets.

The other was for WvW. I could envision a sea of Alpha Siege Golems roaming all the maps effectively taking complete control for that week. I’m sure if this happened, something would be done to limit the number available per world per map, which would then negate any impact unlimited resources would provide.

Otherwise, I can’t think how unlimited money would otherwise be able to significantly affect other players. Or ,in your opinion, is it also all players != the whole of the game?

Ahh…good question! That is in fact where it gets tricky. Where proving turns into providing a case for. Where correlations to prior occurrences become our best predictors of future outcomes.

Tbh it will take a lot of thought, research, and time to fully answer that, which is part of the reason I asked to msg JS regaridng it.

I’ll rephrase my question.

How could wealth disparity potentially impact the whole of the game?

You do not need actual data to create a meaningful argument.

You can use an example, like: If there are 100,000 players all with a mean gold of 20, a min of 0 and max of 500k, how would the player with 500k gold impact a player of 0 gold? What harm could the player with more gold inflict upon the player with 0 gold? What harm could the player with 500k do to the whole of the game?

The Meat Wagon.7194:

How does saying it doesn’t need to be fair validate that?

Because when you say life isn’t fair, what you’re saying is that fairness doesn’t have to be considered. Fairness is meaningless for everyone. The rich are part of everyone, so it’s just as valid to have unfair things happen to them as it is to have unfair things happen to the poor. So since life is unfair, it’s perfectly valid to take gold from the rich and hand it to the poor without the consent of the rich.

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.

My theory is many players dont’ like the GW2 economy and TP.

And I prove it by seeing many people complaining on the GW2 forum.

The reality is people aren’t complaining in other mmorpg(with some exception which I shouldn’t list because I dont’ want to promote other games), they only complain in GW2.

Gene Archer.8560:

The Meat Wagon.7194:

How does saying it doesn’t need to be fair validate that?

Because when you say life isn’t fair, what you’re saying is that fairness doesn’t have to be considered. Fairness is meaningless for everyone. The rich are part of everyone, so it’s just as valid to have unfair things happen to them as it is to have unfair things happen to the poor. So since life is unfair, it’s perfectly valid to take gold from the rich and hand it to the poor without the consent of the rich.

The TP isn’t taking gold away from people without their consent. Your example doesn’t apply to it.

laokoko.7403:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.

My theory is many players dont’ like the GW2 economy and TP.

And I prove it by seeing many people complaining on the GW2 forum.

The reality is people aren’t complaining in other mmorpg(with some exception which I shouldn’t list because I dont’ want to promote other games), they only complain in GW2.

You know what else people don’t like? Prostate exams and TSA checks at the airport.

John Smith.4610:

DavidSev.6978:

Here what I want from the stats: I want to know how many players flip stuff, and what percentage of trades that is.

Doesn’t need to be an accurate figure, just a ball-park will do.

As to how to get that… It’s too late for me to properly engage my brain but I’m thinking get a month moving average of every players buys and sells for each item, and compare the variance between the number brought and sold. A flipper will be selling a similar number to what they brought, and a “normal” player will have most items being either mostly brought or mostly sold.

And then break it down by market. (EG T1 mats, dyes, weapons, etc)

If flippers only count for a few percent of trades, then who cares. If they are 90% then it’s a very important issue. A figure could be interesting though.

Interesting, but meaningless unless you’re interested in the GW2 playerbase’s personal preferences.

I don’t think it is meaningless. People often complain about flippers and people playing the market causing problems. Surely the first step to solving the “problem” is to determine if there is a problem, how big it is, and what it is. Knowing how many flippers there are could help with that. Even just knowing the distribution with no numbers attached. (Although I’m sure you can come up with a better way to work it out that my late-night ramblings)

A simpler dataset to ask for: If you rank players by total items traded in the last month, what percentage of trades where from the top 0.1% of players? The top 0.2%? How stacked is it towards the minority?

People often complain about the big wealth disparity, so handy data would be to know how big that disparity is. So like above, what percentage of “wealth” is owned by the top 0.1% of players? The top 0.01%? Defining wealth is interesting, maybe sum all assets at their current buy-offers prices? Or maybe rank by “economic activity”, the sum of all their buys and sells this month? The latter is less about wealth disparity as much as how many people play the TP and how much, but I think it would be interesting even if I can’t come up with a good excuse why it’d be handy.

Are you able to release details about the economy? Are you willing to? If we come up with a good dataset that would be valuable to the discussion would you provide it? If so, some guidelines would be nice. If not, then this is all kinda pointless.

John Smith.4610:

DavidSev.6978:

Here what I want from the stats: I want to know how many players flip stuff, and what percentage of trades that is.

Doesn’t need to be an accurate figure, just a ball-park will do.

As to how to get that… It’s too late for me to properly engage my brain but I’m thinking get a month moving average of every players buys and sells for each item, and compare the variance between the number brought and sold. A flipper will be selling a similar number to what they brought, and a “normal” player will have most items being either mostly brought or mostly sold.

And then break it down by market. (EG T1 mats, dyes, weapons, etc)

If flippers only count for a few percent of trades, then who cares. If they are 90% then it’s a very important issue. A figure could be interesting though.

Interesting, but meaningless unless you’re interested in the GW2 playerbase’s personal preferences.

Enough with this. The data is actually there already. Would you say there are people with what anyone would consider an average player are holding are have earned an extreme amount of gold? If so, how did they earn that gold? was it farming for months or was it outright moving product on the TP? I’d be surprised if you could prove that TP trading isn’t earning even the upper .001% a crap load of cash in a fairly short period of time. If so, you have a problem.

Please don’t bother with “average player” descriptions or “TP Baron” ones, you know what’s what more than we do.

william dj.6953:

Do you feel taking away from someone who followed the rules. Invested their time. Is acceptable?

No, but if life isn’t fair, then that doesn’t matter. When you say life isn’t fair, and you have no intention of trying to make life fair, then anything goes.

It isn’t “life isn’t fair to only the poor”. It’s “life isn’t fair”. That means life isn’t fair for everyone, even the rich.

The Meat Wagon.7194:

The TP isn’t taking gold away from people without their consent. Your example doesn’t apply to it.

Life isn’t fair. Consent isn’t needed.

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

The problem is with players who feel they deserve everything for nothing.

Nobody is saying this though.

Wanting to be rewarded for equivalent effort when effort is the bar being set for getting rewards is not wanting everything for nothing.

You will be rewarded accordingly, if you put in the same effort at the tp.
Where is the problem?

Gene Archer.8560:

someone who struggles and puts a lot of effort into dungeons, because they aren’t good at dungeons.

This might be a problem if dungeons or other PvE events were done solo but even if they aren’t good they can still be carried by the group regardless of the individual’s effort.

You’re the only one that acknowledged my suggestions, so I want your opinion, Shizo. Ignore the whole “TP is evil” or whatever. Just taking into consideration that people want to reach the stuff they like in a timely manner so they can enjoy it, whether that be amassing gold, or getting skins or items. Do you see any problems with my suggestion? (The real suggestion, the one I worked on that you were trying to help knock out the kinks of)

I have no problem with your suggestion of increasing the value of other currencies or PvE reward tracks (assuming it doesn’t significantly affect Anet’s profits on gem conversions). Especially reward tracks because that is based more on individual effort than group effort. But in the end I wonder if this is the game for someone if their goal is the coolest stuff in a timely manner. Not that there is anything wrong with that but there are much better options of MMO if that is your goal.

Gene Archer.8560:

william dj.6953:

Do you feel taking away from someone who followed the rules. Invested their time. Is acceptable?

No, but if life isn’t fair, then that doesn’t matter. When you say life isn’t fair, and you have no intention of trying to make life fair, then anything goes.

It isn’t “life isn’t fair to only the poor”. It’s “life isn’t fair”. That means life isn’t fair for everyone, even the rich.

The Meat Wagon.7194:

The TP isn’t taking gold away from people without their consent. Your example doesn’t apply to it.

Life isn’t fair. Consent isn’t needed.

Are we still talking about gw2 or not?

TChalla.7146:

I would be curious to know all of the ways that gold is introduced into the economy and all of the ways that gold is permanently removed from the economy. I would also like to know how much gold is generated per day and how much is removed per day. I think it would be an important factor in determining anything, really, since gold is what we’re discussing right now.

And what does that have to do with the issue of TP Barons with their supposed Scrooge McDuck size vaults of gold?

The TP simply transfers wealth between players. While it’s likely a significant gold sink in the overall economy, the actual in and outflows of gold in the economy is immaterial to the discussion.

There are two issues being discussed over and over.

Are TP Barons controlling the price of highly desirable items by controlling supply, ala De Beers?

Are TP Barons making gold from the labors or ordinary players without providing any benefits to those players? And secondary to that is the risk and effort playing the TP equivalent to the rewards received from killing critters?

Schizo.1375:

laokoko.7403:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.

My theory is many players dont’ like the GW2 economy and TP.

And I prove it by seeing many people complaining on the GW2 forum.

The reality is people aren’t complaining in other mmorpg(with some exception which I shouldn’t list because I dont’ want to promote other games), they only complain in GW2.

You know what else people don’t like? Prostate exams and TSA checks at the airport.

Valid point. There is also the benefit of the GW2 economy. Many enjoy the high volatile GW2 economy, which became a valid game play which you don’t see much in other online RPG games.

Behellagh.1468:

TChalla.7146:

I would be curious to know all of the ways that gold is introduced into the economy and all of the ways that gold is permanently removed from the economy. I would also like to know how much gold is generated per day and how much is removed per day. I think it would be an important factor in determining anything, really, since gold is what we’re discussing right now.

And what does that have to do with the issue of TP Barons with their supposed Scrooge McDuck size vaults of gold?

The TP simply transfers wealth between players. While it’s likely a significant gold sink in the overall economy, the actual in and outflows of gold in the economy is immaterial to the discussion.

There are two issues being discussed over and over.

Are TP Barons controlling the price of highly desirable items by controlling supply, ala De Beers?

Are TP Barons making gold from the labors or ordinary players without providing any benefits to those players? And secondary to that is the risk and effort playing the TP equivalent to the rewards received from killing critters?

Actually, it has plenty to do with the supposed TP barons. There money has to come from somewhere, since they made their money without introducing any money into the economy at all. In fact, they removed gold from the economy. Since we’re discussing various ways to make gold, it would seem pertinent to know how much the incoming gold versus outgoing gold relies on the Trading Post.

Just so we know which side of the discussion I’m on, I’m in agreement that the Trading Post should be left as is, which I can explain further if need be.

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.

You know the answer to that already, John. Even if a wealth gap was shown & proven, the only statement that could be made would be “It’s not FAIR! They have 500,000 gold, and can buy anything, while I struggle to earn 5 gold per day and can’t buy whatever I want, whenever I want!”

Face it – wealthy players have very little, if any, effect on inflation within the game. The total amount of gold in the economy however, does. Any time you have more money/gold coming INTO the economy vs. going out, there’s going to be inflation. If GW2 had a “Closed” economy where there was only a certain amount of money in the game, then wealthy players would have a much larger impact on economical forces – but GW2 is not a closed economy.

As has been stated a few times in the thread, YOU decide where to spend your time in game. If a player wants to spend 8 hours a day farming T6 mats in a level 80 zone to sell on the TP to make money, are they going to make more money than someone who spends 8 hours doing events in a level 1-15 zone? Of course they are.

I’ve never seen an MMO where there wasn’t a wealth gap. Ever.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

So in essence, you want John to help you validate your speculations as to why you think there’s a problem with the economy?

Part of debating is to bring forth evidence that backs your position. You can’t come to a debate, defend your position, and then ask the opposite side to provide evidence that would adhere to your theories.

Actually, that’s the opposite of how it works, at least in the legal system. Go ahead and google “legal discovery.” If one side in a conflict has relevant information to the other side’s claim, they are REQUIRED BY LAW to produce it in a timely fashion.

Not saying that’s applicable here. Just saying the “rules of debate” aren’t really what internet debaters think they are.

Wanze.8410:

You will be rewarded accordingly, if you put in the same effort at the tp.
Where is the problem?

That the same effort isn’t rewarded at the same level as the TP for the rest of the game. You’ve been following this thread, you already know this.

Gene Archer.8560:

william dj.6953:

Fairness = what I deserve=entitlement.

Entitlement is not inherently bad or wrong.

On a personal level, having a sense of Entitlement isn’t bad or wrong. But I did say that you can’t use that an excuse to spread the wealth. Communism failed because of the same ideas you’re pushing. So if we already know it’s a bad idea, and proven through the collapse of countries, why are you still pushing this to happen in the GW2 economy?

Whoa……………….15 chars

Gene Archer.8560:

Wanting to be rewarded for equivalent effort when effort is the bar being set for getting rewards is not wanting everything for nothing.

I used strike-through because I wanted to try and provide a real world example to the first part of your statement.

Example:

The Artist decides to look out in the world and provide a product, but they don’t know exactly what their product should be. The Artist goes into an Art Gallery and talks to the owner. They ask questions about what types of art has been bought recently and what the art medium was (paint, sculpture, etc.).

The Artist has now done their research and decided to visit the Art Supply Store. The Artist buys goods from the owner in order to create a new piece of art.

The Artist determines the sale price of the piece of art based on the amount of money the Artist invested to create the art, a value the Artist places on his/her time researching what kind of art to create, and a value of money the Artist would like to make as a profit.

The Artist now takes this new piece of art to the Art Gallery and places it up for sale.

Some amount of time later, the Art Gallery Patron decides to buy the piece of art and pays the requested amount of the Artist.

The Artist has provided goods and services to the Patron before knowing whether or not the Patron actually existed. There’s no guarantee that a Patron would come along and buy their art for the price they were asking. They took a calculated risk by creating a new piece of art.

After making some money, this Artist decides to do it again…and again….and again. Over the course of time, the Artist becomes exceedingly wealthy using the skill set they’ve developed while creating art.

Now……take that example and in place of the various people and places, replace them with these values:

• Person #1: Owns an art supply store (represents the Seller)
• Person #2: Art gallery patron (represents the Buyer)
• Person #3: Artist (Trading Post player)
• Place #1: Art Supply Store (represented by the Trading Post….a place to buy goods)
• Place #2: Art Gallery (represented by the Trading Post….a place to sell goods)

Without the Sellers selling goods to the Trading Post player, the research involved in analyzing the goods that could possibly sell well for profit on the Trading Post, and the Buyers that buy the Trading Post players goods, the Trading Post player cannot make a profit.

How, in any way, shape, or form, could any other part of the game be “equal” to the effort put in by the Trading Post player? If they buy goods too high, or sell goods too low, they don’t profit. If they don’t do their research, they don’t profit. No one, besides the individual playing the Trading Post, knows how much “effort” they put in to profiting on the Trading Post. That individual player valued their effort at a certain amount…..and a Buyer paid it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

On a personal level, having a sense of Entitlement isn’t bad or wrong. But I did say that you can’t use that an excuse to spread the wealth. Communism failed because of the same ideas you’re pushing. So if we already know it’s a bad idea, and proven through the collapse of countries, why are you still pushing this to happen in the GW2 economy?

That’s actually not why those countries failed. Not even remotely. As a rule of thumb, if Reagan said something, the opposite was probably true.

But boy, oh boy, I do NOT have the energy for a poli sci 101 argument on the gw2 forums tonight. I’m saving it for wvw reset.

william dj.6953:

@Gene, I have consented life isn’t fair.

You’ve consented it but you don’t understand what it actually means.

william dj.6953:

I have 6 brothers 3 sisters. I’m used to it. But I didn’t complain. I manned up, dealt with and moved on doing what was necessary

Then the rich are also capable of not complaining, manning up, and dealing with and moving on when they’re money is taken from them and handed to the poor.

If life isn’t fair, then it is just as valid for the poor to take from the rich and say “Tough, deal with it” as it is for the rich to sit there with all the money, and tell poor people that they need to “deal with it” when it comes to their lack of money and inability to obtain that money.

“Life isn’t fair” isn’t just some phrase you can throw around to justify the ills of the world without justifying -all- of the ills. If you have no problems with poor people not being able to afford anything or with things like effort and such being unequally rewarded because “life isn’t fair”, then you must also have no problems with things like the poor just straight up taking from the rich, because, again, “life isn’t fair”.

You don’t get to pick and choose when it comes to “life isn’t fair”. It’s all or nothing.

william dj.6953:

Appears you advocate stealing. I do not, would not. I can see clearly now why we are on opposing sides.

I don’t advocate stealing, though. You’re not paying attention to what I’m saying.

You are the one who advocates stealing. You have to. Your argument isn’t “stealing is wrong”. Your argument is “life isn’t fair”. Further, your argument is that “life isn’t fair” is an ultimate truism and there’s nothing that can be done about it. That means anything goes and anything is alright with you, because “life is unfair” and that’s “all there is to it”.

@Gene, you are trying to read way more into it that what was said. But no I did not advocate stealing you clearly did.

Your right though, I’m most likely not paying close attention considering the source.

william dj.6953:

@Gene, you are trying to read way more into it that what was said.

I absolutely am not.

william dj.6953:

But no I did not advocate stealing you clearly did.

I advocated stealing under the pretense that life isn’t fair. Life isn’t fair is YOUR argument, not mine. I’m trying to show you that, under the argument life isn’t fair, stealing is -perfectly- legitimate. In fact, -everything- is legitimate under the banner of “life isn’t fair”

What are you not understanding about this?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

On a personal level, having a sense of Entitlement isn’t bad or wrong. But I did say that you can’t use that an excuse to spread the wealth.

Which is why I haven’t suggested spreading the wealth. Jesus Christ, Schizo is literally the only one that read my kittening suggestion.

Prince Rogers Nelson.7652:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

On a personal level, having a sense of Entitlement isn’t bad or wrong. But I did say that you can’t use that an excuse to spread the wealth. Communism failed because of the same ideas you’re pushing. So if we already know it’s a bad idea, and proven through the collapse of countries, why are you still pushing this to happen in the GW2 economy?

That’s actually not why those countries failed. Not even remotely. As a rule of thumb, if Reagan said something, the opposite was probably true.

But boy, oh boy, I do NOT have the energy for a poli sci 101 argument on the gw2 forums tonight. I’m saving it for wvw reset.

If you compare a country based on Capitalism, and one that’s based on Communism, you’ll notice that one is prosperous and one isn’t. It would be similar to what some are advocating for here.

If you impose a mandate that all players must have equal wealth, then you eliminate the need for any type of reward structure. GW2 then turns into a single player console game, where the end game is just starting over with a new character.