Guild Wars 2

mtpelion.4562:

laokoko.7403:

Which is why people are complaining. People actually get rewarded for just farming and adventure in other game. And in this game just like you said, they literally have nothing to show for compare to the merchant.

And the button line is Wanze did get rewarded for what he is doing, which is being a merchant. And dont’ tell me Wanze having a beautiful house isn’t a reward.

In this game, you still can get every reward in the game by adventuring or farming. If you don’t want to take that long, you can also trade away your things for gold, then trade that gold for the thing you want. Most other games don’t allow you to do that and force you to grind out everything for yourself.

Bottom line, Wanze is enjoying the rewards of other players because they GAVE him their rewards because they wanted to. If Wanze has a nice house, it is because the players of this game rewarded him, not the game. The game ONLY rewards adventuring and farming.

do you just like to play with wording? Since how does anything even matter. Farmers and adventurer are complaining because they didn’t get the house and only merchant have a house.

Borghal.1635:

Lothirieth.3408:

Borghal.1635:

Say you have…
1) harvesting and selling – 6gph
2) crafting – 12gph
3) doing dungeons – 10gph
4) world bosses – 12gph
5) PvP/WvW rewards – 7gph

I dunno if those were meant to be actual estimates but all aside from the harvesting seem fairly off base. 12g per hour doing world bosses? Um wat? I’d halve the dungeon rate as well.

Also harvesting has been severely nerfed due to the dumb megaservers.

Those were not meant as real estimates. Its a fictitious example of what the differences should ideally be like, to give you an idea what the percentage differences I was talking about would look like.

Wanze.8410:

So youre complaining all this time that its too hard for you to get exclusive skins. Then you get one as a drop and it somehow doesnt count towards your goal?

It is not about me. It’s about getting the idea of an average income of a player that is not dedicated to minmaxing gold gain.
When determining how long you will work towards something you want, you cannot account for random 200gold item drops. That stuff may never happen again. For a lot of people it never does at all, instead they get exo’s much lower in value. The Thorn didn’t drop because the game felt I needed more gold. I just got extremely lucky, like buying a few keys and getting 5 claim tickets in 10 chests.

If the average player is not dedicated towards minmaxing gold gain, he doesnt seem to need gold to enjoy the game.

I once made 200g profit in an hour and i also sold items with more than 1000% profit margins. But guess what? That stuff doesnt happen very often to me and for most players never at all. Doesnt that mean that those profits should be disregarded as well when looking at my average profits?

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

mtpelion.4562:

laokoko.7403:

^ cool story bro. I’m sure most mmorpg have a TP and no one is complaining about the merchant there.

Most (all?) MMORPGs don’t have a forum for talking about their economy. ArenaNet is quite different in that they are willing to actually talk about this topic, whereas other games simply delete those posts.

EDIT: Yes, the moral of the story is that the TP is a tool that you can use to build the things you want. The tool is available to everyone.

Here is another moral for the story. GW2 has a massive unregulated market, something unseen in “most games” so to suggest some regulation isn’t an outrageous proposal. Putting in a check and balance system on buy and sell orders would seemingly keep the market moving smoothly and reduce the price spikes seen in certain markets, bringing fair and balanced practices for everyone.

It really, in all fairness, doesn’t matter if marketeers are ruining the economy or not. It doesn’t matter that they are earning shiny goods faster, forget those arguments. Let’s just talk about how we can regulate the market prices to be smoother, where prices don’t skyrocket in a day or an hour and the average player eats that spike. Lets talk about it in a way that improves the market for everyone.

Regulating buy and sell orders wont help negating price spikes. The usage of bolts of silk for ascended crafting was limited to 100 per account per day, the spike came nonetheless.
As soon as you limit buy and sell orders, the market loses alot of velocity and price spikes will actually be higher and take more time to get back into equilibrium.

How about we do a little theory crafting? Maybe we can point out some flaws in the system, which may or may not be glaring problems. I don’t have a bunch of time to sit down and run the numbers, but on the surface it seems like a logical suggestion. Here is the breakdown.

Problem: The market prices can be anything. Super high sell orders on wood (lets say) can and do on occasion get reached in the same way super low buy orders can and do get reached. This “price gouging for maximum profit” gets passed on to the un-knowledgeable consumer.

Solution: Limit the range in which buy and sell orders can be placed (tossing out a number here, say 35%). Once an established sell order is made, the buy and sell prices can’t move out of that 35% range (70% margin between buy and sell). As sales increase in price the target moves with it.

Example: A new item hits the market a bunch of players put in that dropped item into the market at all sorts of prices (we’ll say a range between 100g and 5g). Obviously the low sell offer will establish our range, kicking back all the sell orders beyond that range. Buy orders get put in too now, but we have an established target, they cannot be placed below 35%, nor can sell offers be placed higher than 35%. As new sell and buy prices get established that target fluctuates, which allows for increase and decreases in price, but not spiked prices beyond that range.

Now, in my mind, i envision it how the target price for gems works now. If i place an exchange offer, wait a few minutes, the price moves and i cannot make the exchange. So i know at least the system is capable (coded enough) to a least factor in that ability in tracking. Obviously, i’m not doing the math here, it could be 25% or 20% or 50%….

I dont see, how this would stop price spikes. Price spikes are usually caused by high demand and all your suggestion would do is concentrate sell listings around the actual price. But once the supply on the tp is used up, it wouldnt prevent the price to rise.
If your system was in place and wood costs 1s on average, so the minimum buy order i can put in is 65c and the highest price i can list it is 1.35s.
Now i am buying up wood because i think in a month or 2, wood will be in demand and will be worth 2s. Right now i have the possibility to post it at 2s, making it available supply for everybody. If i cant post it at 2s, i just hold on to it and wait until the price rises. Once it does, you wont have many listings between 1.35s and 2s and beyond to prevent an even higher price spike.

why not just take away buy order system. If you want to buy something go buy from the cheapest item on the trading post. That’s what most game uses.

And don’t start telling me about convenient. If you undercut by 20% to the usual price, I’m sure it’ll get sold instantly.

red.2387:

John Smith.4610:

It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.

All the profits that the Trading Post manipulators make for themselves comes via artificially increasing the prices for everyone else. The TP is a rampant speculation market. The problem isn’t that the rich are rich, its that they extracted value from buyers to get there.

Can you elaborate a bit on how you define manipulation and how this has more impact on prices than supply and demand of the regular player base?
And how can rich players “extract” value from other players/buyers without their consent?

Thanks for your input.

laokoko.7403:

do you just like to play with wording? Since how does anything even matter. Farmers and adventurer are complaining because they didn’t get the house and only merchant have a house.

No, farmers and adventurers are complaining that they are unable to make applesauce with bananas.

To make applesauce, you must use apples.

To make gold, you must use the TP.

laokoko.7403:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

mtpelion.4562:

laokoko.7403:

^ cool story bro. I’m sure most mmorpg have a TP and no one is complaining about the merchant there.

Most (all?) MMORPGs don’t have a forum for talking about their economy. ArenaNet is quite different in that they are willing to actually talk about this topic, whereas other games simply delete those posts.

EDIT: Yes, the moral of the story is that the TP is a tool that you can use to build the things you want. The tool is available to everyone.

Here is another moral for the story. GW2 has a massive unregulated market, something unseen in “most games” so to suggest some regulation isn’t an outrageous proposal. Putting in a check and balance system on buy and sell orders would seemingly keep the market moving smoothly and reduce the price spikes seen in certain markets, bringing fair and balanced practices for everyone.

It really, in all fairness, doesn’t matter if marketeers are ruining the economy or not. It doesn’t matter that they are earning shiny goods faster, forget those arguments. Let’s just talk about how we can regulate the market prices to be smoother, where prices don’t skyrocket in a day or an hour and the average player eats that spike. Lets talk about it in a way that improves the market for everyone.

Regulating buy and sell orders wont help negating price spikes. The usage of bolts of silk for ascended crafting was limited to 100 per account per day, the spike came nonetheless.
As soon as you limit buy and sell orders, the market loses alot of velocity and price spikes will actually be higher and take more time to get back into equilibrium.

How about we do a little theory crafting? Maybe we can point out some flaws in the system, which may or may not be glaring problems. I don’t have a bunch of time to sit down and run the numbers, but on the surface it seems like a logical suggestion. Here is the breakdown.

Problem: The market prices can be anything. Super high sell orders on wood (lets say) can and do on occasion get reached in the same way super low buy orders can and do get reached. This “price gouging for maximum profit” gets passed on to the un-knowledgeable consumer.

Solution: Limit the range in which buy and sell orders can be placed (tossing out a number here, say 35%). Once an established sell order is made, the buy and sell prices can’t move out of that 35% range (70% margin between buy and sell). As sales increase in price the target moves with it.

Example: A new item hits the market a bunch of players put in that dropped item into the market at all sorts of prices (we’ll say a range between 100g and 5g). Obviously the low sell offer will establish our range, kicking back all the sell orders beyond that range. Buy orders get put in too now, but we have an established target, they cannot be placed below 35%, nor can sell offers be placed higher than 35%. As new sell and buy prices get established that target fluctuates, which allows for increase and decreases in price, but not spiked prices beyond that range.

Now, in my mind, i envision it how the target price for gems works now. If i place an exchange offer, wait a few minutes, the price moves and i cannot make the exchange. So i know at least the system is capable (coded enough) to a least factor in that ability in tracking. Obviously, i’m not doing the math here, it could be 25% or 20% or 50%….

I dont see, how this would stop price spikes. Price spikes are usually caused by high demand and all your suggestion would do is concentrate sell listings around the actual price. But once the supply on the tp is used up, it wouldnt prevent the price to rise.
If your system was in place and wood costs 1s on average, so the minimum buy order i can put in is 65c and the highest price i can list it is 1.35s.
Now i am buying up wood because i think in a month or 2, wood will be in demand and will be worth 2s. Right now i have the possibility to post it at 2s, making it available supply for everybody. If i cant post it at 2s, i just hold on to it and wait until the price rises. Once it does, you wont have many listings between 1.35s and 2s and beyond to prevent an even higher price spike.

why not just take away buy order system. If you want to buy something go buy from the cheapest item on the trading post. That’s what most game uses.

And don’t start telling me about convenient. If you undercut by 20% to the usual price, I’m sure it’ll get sold instantly.

Because it wouldnt change anything. I would even argue that this would make prices easier manipulated because they only have 1 value, not 2.
Price fluctuation would be way higher than right now.

Wanze.8410:

I dont see, how this would stop price spikes. Price spikes are usually caused by high demand and all your suggestion would do is concentrate sell listings around the actual price. But once the supply on the tp is used up, it wouldnt prevent the price to rise.
If your system was in place and wood costs 1s on average, so the minimum buy order i can put in is 65c and the highest price i can list it is 1.35s.
Now i am buying up wood because i think in a month or 2, wood will be in demand and will be worth 2s. Right now i have the possibility to post it at 2s, making it available supply for everybody. If i cant post it at 2s, i just hold on to it and wait until the price rises. Once it does, you wont have many listings between 1.35s and 2s and beyond to prevent an even higher price spike.

If the market can only stay within an established range, a price spike couldn’t actually happen outside that range. Wealthy investors that speculate actually help cause prices to spike out of that range (or even some farmer that decided his stack of wood is worth double) , since they can list at anything they want. Sure, it might sit there for weeks or maybe even months, but why not limit that from happening? What difference does it make to you if you sit on the product or it sits on the market? The big difference is to the consumer, not the market speculator.

By limiting the range between highest sell and lowest buy, you limit the price spike. The system should also refund buy orders that fall out of that range and sell orders as well, also refunding the 5% listing fee (this would be the only case that would happen), since the market moved out of range.

munkiman.3068:

Wanze.8410:

I dont see, how this would stop price spikes. Price spikes are usually caused by high demand and all your suggestion would do is concentrate sell listings around the actual price. But once the supply on the tp is used up, it wouldnt prevent the price to rise.
If your system was in place and wood costs 1s on average, so the minimum buy order i can put in is 65c and the highest price i can list it is 1.35s.
Now i am buying up wood because i think in a month or 2, wood will be in demand and will be worth 2s. Right now i have the possibility to post it at 2s, making it available supply for everybody. If i cant post it at 2s, i just hold on to it and wait until the price rises. Once it does, you wont have many listings between 1.35s and 2s and beyond to prevent an even higher price spike.

If the market can only stay within an established range, a price spike couldn’t actually happen outside that range. Wealthy investors that speculate actually help cause prices to spike out of that range (or even some farmer that decided his stack of wood is worth double) , since they can list at anything they want. Sure, it might sit there for weeks or maybe even months, but why not limit that from happening? What difference does it make to you if you sit on the product or it sits on the market? The big difference is to the consumer, not the market speculator.

By limiting the range between highest sell and lowest buy, you limit the price spike. The system should also refund buy orders that fall out of that range and sell orders as well, also refunding the 5% listing fee (this would be the only case that would happen), since the market moved out of range.

It makes a difference if i sit on the product or put it on the market.
If I keep it, I need to provide storage of my own and my supply is not available to the player base for sale. If i post it on the tp, i have to pay 5% listing fee and my supply is available for sale.
If the item has a supply of 50k on the tp and is more or less stable in supply for weeks, that could still mean that 50k of that item are being traded every day but new supply is added as fast as the items is being bought.
Once an item goes into high demand (think iron ore for the backpieces) the supply on the tp will be inhaled in an instant, even if you can only post in 35% range, buy orders will go up 35% within a minute and another 35% the next minute.
I might have listed my supply at double the price than before the spike but as i am holding on to it now, i can sit back, watch the market spike rapidly (because there are no listing between 36-100% above the normal price) and sell at 300,400, or 500% of the normal price.

Wanze.8410:

If the average player is not dedicated towards minmaxing gold gain, he doesnt seem to need gold to enjoy the game.

Why would that be true? I bet there are people out there who would love to get their hands on some of the expensive stuff, but it just seems out of reach, making them if not sad, then certainly less happy. They might not even know what the idea of minmaxing is. Or they are not clever enough. Or they don’t even know they could look stuff up on the internet outside of the game… You get the point. Heck, I heard people whine they want to do more damage but they never consulted a single guide, for example. I know such players and I would even go as far as to say that among ‘casuals’ there is a significant portion of these.

Wanze.8410:

I once made 200g profit in an hour and i also sold items with more than 1000% profit margins. But guess what? That stuff doesnt happen very often to me and for most players never at all. Doesnt that mean that those profits should be disregarded as well when looking at my average profits?

Did you triple your total wealth by one totally random occurrence that you had absolutely no control over? No. That’s what I’m talking about.

Borghal.1635:

Wanze.8410:

I once made 200g profit in an hour and i also sold items with more than 1000% profit margins. But guess what? That stuff doesnt happen very often to me and for most players never at all. Doesnt that mean that those profits should be disregarded as well when looking at my average profits?

Did you triple your total wealth by one totally random occurrence that you had absolutely no control over? No. That’s what I’m talking about.

I actually did more than tenfold my wealth by investing into sentinel inscriptions and insignias when they dropped and selling them at a later stage. And i had no control over it because i didnt know that they would stop dropping and I didnt know that people would pay beyond 30g for one of them later on. I simply bought them because at that time they were way cheaper than any other crafted exotic inscription/insignia.

Wanze.8410:

It makes a difference if i sit on the product or put it on the market.
If I keep it, I need to provide storage of my own and my supply is not available to the player base for sale. If i post it on the tp, i have to pay 5% listing fee and my supply is available for sale.
If the item has a supply of 50k on the tp and is more or less stable in supply for weeks, that could still mean that 50k of that item are being traded every day but new supply is added as fast as the items is being bought.
Once an item goes into high demand (think iron ore for the backpieces) the supply on the tp will be inhaled in an instant, even if you can only post in 35% range, buy orders will go up 35% within a minute and another 35% the next minute.
I might have listed my supply at double the price than before the spike but as i am holding on to it now, i can sit back, watch the market spike rapidly (because there are no listing between 36-100% above the normal price) and sell at 300,400, or 500% of the normal price.

Sure, but you’re now not establishing an elevated price where demand has pay your 300% as supply gets tapped. It would only increase gradually, there couldn’t be a spike between the going rate and the rate someone sets that’s 3x higher. Storage concerns should be the cost of speculation anyway. Right now you can decide to risk taking a 5% hit (or letting your product sit on the TP forever). I’m kinda suggesting that probably isn’t ideal, that it’s the consumer that is being impacted. That impact also translates to product not being available too, since it’s sitting so much higher than what the going rate is. You can’t say it’s a good thing that your using the TP in a storage capacity for profit, can you?

Obviously the more wealth you have the more you’re willing to take those risks, but those are at the expense of the consumer at some point down the road.

Minato.5294:

And seeing as he runs the bltp, the costs should be recovered there by increasing the tax by 1% instead of from champ bags and other parts of the game.

What for?

Regarding the loot, the more loot players can get, the lower the value of those items. The easier items are to obtain, the less fun the game overall. Which is why it might be a good thing that they’re limiting it whether the armor repair cost went free or not.

But the real question is, what does increasing tax on TP accomplish? It won’t exactly help the players trying to make money on TP. Nor will it help lower prices that sellers set on items for players shopping on it.

Too much loot also means more players selling that loot on the TP making it easier for players to just buy it off of the TP. Really rare gear should be just that. Rare as in difficult to obtain. Either find it while adventuring, or do what it takes to make gold to buy it off of the TP.

cranos.5913:

I know a guy who has 300k+ gold atm. Wouldn’t mind seeing him get taxed. :P

Why tax a ‘rich’ player? This isn’t real life where rich use poor people for labor and service. What is the justification for this in a game?

Who cares how much game money a player makes? It doesn’t affect anybody else. Somebody is making a ton of gold doesn’t affect other players. Not to mention they’re doing something in the game that all players have access to in order to make that gold.

Like don’t expect to be in WvW all day while another player is crafting and selling garbage all day. And playing the TP all day. Then say that player should be taxed. Anybody wanting a ton of XP can do the same thing as players who get a ton of XP. Anybody wanting a ton of gold can do the same thing as players who get a ton of gold.

Some players “play the BLTP”. Perhaps because it’s fun and rewarding to make lots of gold. I personally find it a fun and enjoyable part of the game. Some players enjoy running around the train thing all day which I find to be anything but fun.

munkiman.3068:

Wanze.8410:

It makes a difference if i sit on the product or put it on the market.
If I keep it, I need to provide storage of my own and my supply is not available to the player base for sale. If i post it on the tp, i have to pay 5% listing fee and my supply is available for sale.
If the item has a supply of 50k on the tp and is more or less stable in supply for weeks, that could still mean that 50k of that item are being traded every day but new supply is added as fast as the items is being bought.
Once an item goes into high demand (think iron ore for the backpieces) the supply on the tp will be inhaled in an instant, even if you can only post in 35% range, buy orders will go up 35% within a minute and another 35% the next minute.
I might have listed my supply at double the price than before the spike but as i am holding on to it now, i can sit back, watch the market spike rapidly (because there are no listing between 36-100% above the normal price) and sell at 300,400, or 500% of the normal price.

Sure, but you’re now not establishing an elevated price where demand has pay your 300% as supply gets tapped. It would only increase gradually, there couldn’t be a spike between the going rate and the rate someone sets that’s 3x higher. Storage concerns should be the cost of speculation anyway. Right now you can decide to risk taking a 5% hit (or letting your product sit on the TP forever). I’m kinda suggesting that probably isn’t ideal, that it’s the consumer that is being impacted. That impact also translates to product not being available too, since it’s sitting so much higher than what the going rate is. You can’t say it’s a good thing that your using the TP in a storage capacity for profit, can you?

Obviously the more wealth you have the more you’re willing to take those risks, but those are at the expense of the consumer at some point down the road.

What it would do perfectly fine, i grant you that, is keeping the price more or less stable in times of high demand. Until supply runs out and nobody saw it coming.
The gradual price increase for in demand, high volume items is actually neccessary in order to keep the market stable.
Be honest with me: At what point would you realize, if the supply of linen scraps on the tp would go down from 75k to 1k within a week, while prices didnt go up as fast as with the current system? Once supply is very low and people start realizing that there is some gold to be made, they will list at 35% over the lowest listing and people will buy it faster than people will post new stuff because at this point, you are only relying on stocks of speculators because the farmers realized far too late, that supply runs out.

It would make most markets way more volatile which usually is not in the best interest for the average player.

Wanze.8410:

Because it wouldnt change anything. I would even argue that this would make prices easier manipulated because they only have 1 value, not 2.
Price fluctuation would be way higher than right now.

I dont’ know what is this manipulation you are talking about. Several people claim there is no such thing as manipulation in this game.

And you will severely cut the flipping profit if there is only 1 price.

There is probably way too many supply and demand shock with every patch. Those are probably unavoidable.

Wanze.8410:

Be honest with me: At what point would you realize, if the supply of linen scraps on the tp would go down from 75k to 1k within a week, while prices didnt go up as fast as with the current system? Once supply is very low and people start realizing that there is some gold to be made, they will list at 35% over the lowest listing and people will buy it faster than people will post new stuff because at this point, you are only relying on stocks of speculators because the farmers realized far too late, that supply runs out.

It would make most markets way more volatile which usually is not in the best interest for the average player.

Maybe i’m misunderstanding here, but i’m not seeing volatility.

As a speculator you could easily portion off your stock in increments of 35% profits or dump the whole thing @ that 35%. If supply went to zero and demand went up 1000%, it would still be a far more gradual increase than it is now. Even if the buy/sell ratio went to the caped 70%, it’s still a far cry from 300%.

I can’t envision the scenario correctly i guess.

munkiman.3068:

Wanze.8410:

Be honest with me: At what point would you realize, if the supply of linen scraps on the tp would go down from 75k to 1k within a week, while prices didnt go up as fast as with the current system? Once supply is very low and people start realizing that there is some gold to be made, they will list at 35% over the lowest listing and people will buy it faster than people will post new stuff because at this point, you are only relying on stocks of speculators because the farmers realized far too late, that supply runs out.

It would make most markets way more volatile which usually is not in the best interest for the average player.

Maybe i’m misunderstanding here, but i’m not seeing volatility.

As a speculator you could easily portion off your stock in increments of 35% profits or dump the whole thing @ that 35%. If supply went to zero and demand went up 1000%, it would still be a far more gradual increase than it is now. Even if the buy/sell ratio went to the caped 70%, it’s still a far cry from 300%.

I can’t envision the scenario correctly i guess.

Well, i thought your point of reference for the average price of an item would be the average between highest bid and lowest listing. Once there is no supply anymore, you can list at any price you want.
That rule would result in lower supply on the tp in general (because i wouldnt list my stuff) and no gradual price increase that warns us that supply is running low until its too late. Once there is no supply anymore, there is no way, you can regulate prices anymore because buyers would overbid each other so fast, that your 35% rule would do nothing to prevent it, unless your point of reference is a fixed value, which would mean that Anet would regulate prices on the tp which would go directly against its intended function.
Rising prices are nothing bad because it alerts the farmer that he will get more value for his work, which adds supply because he farms more. If the farmer would still get only 35% more than before supply ran out, where is the extra motivation to farm more than for his personal needs?

I wasn’t talking averages. A sale defines the limits.

Item sells for 50s, max sell is 35% above, lowest buy is 35% below.
Stock runs out on 50s item, next sell is 51s, target range moves respectively.
Buy orders placed before target range moved gets refunded.
Inversely (price goes down), the highest sell moves out of range, the item is returned and the fee.

The refund rates would obviously need to be over a period of time, you wouldn’t refund if the range dipped every second. Lets say a day, just for kicks, before the TP would kick back your dough and/or your item if it didn’t sell and was out of range.

laokoko.7403:

Wanze.8410:

I dont see, how this would stop price spikes. Price spikes are usually caused by high demand and all your suggestion would do is concentrate sell listings around the actual price. But once the supply on the tp is used up, it wouldnt prevent the price to rise.
If your system was in place and wood costs 1s on average, so the minimum buy order i can put in is 65c and the highest price i can list it is 1.35s.
Now i am buying up wood because i think in a month or 2, wood will be in demand and will be worth 2s. Right now i have the possibility to post it at 2s, making it available supply for everybody. If i cant post it at 2s, i just hold on to it and wait until the price rises. Once it does, you wont have many listings between 1.35s and 2s and beyond to prevent an even higher price spike.

why not just take away buy order system. If you want to buy something go buy from the cheapest item on the trading post. That’s what most game uses.

And don’t start telling me about convenient. If you undercut by 20% to the usual price, I’m sure it’ll get sold instantly.

So instead of buy orders for wood I buy everything for sale that’s less than 2s and relist it for 2s. If I’m watching the market I can continue buying up everything I see <2s and relisting it, so most people buying wood to craft with have no choice but to buy from me, at the price I want to charge.

This is a much better system. I’d rather have people buying from me at the price I determine than placing buy orders at whatever price they are willing to pay for items.

munkiman.3068:

I wasn’t talking averages. A sale defines the limits.

Item sells for 50s, max sell is 35% above, lowest buy is 35% below.
Stock runs out on 50s item, next sell is 51s, target range moves respectively.
Buy orders placed before target range moved gets refunded.
Inversely (price goes down), the highest sell moves out of range, the item is returned and the fee.

The refund rates would obviously need to be over a period of time, you wouldn’t refund if the range dipped every second. Lets say a day, just for kicks, before the TP would kick back your dough and/or your item if it didn’t sell and was out of range.

Well, your idea would definately result in less sell listing per item on the tp and more supply in peoples inventory. Every sell listing, no matter how high, is always an intend to sell. The more listings there are the easier it is for everybody to calculate the true value and supply of an item (which is ever changing) and the easier it is to indentify in demand items. The easier demand can be identified, the faster supply can be added (by farmers and hoarders), which both contributes to lessen price spikes and prices finding equilibrium faster.

What some people don’t grasp is that if an item that drops into the economy at a very low rate relative to the number of players who want it, say 1 for every 1000, then only the players who are in the top 0.1% of wealth should be the only ones who can afford to buy it. If the item was more common then the price would be lower. If it’s too common then it’s price is dirt cheap ranging down to worthless.

Behellagh.1468:

What some people don’t grasp is that if an item that drops into the economy at a very low rate relative to the number of players who want it, say 1 for every 1000, then only the players who are in the top 0.1% of wealth should be the only ones who can afford to buy it. If the item was more common then the price would be lower. If it’s too common then it’s price is dirt cheap ranging down to worthless.

They know it, they just don’t like it. I’ve explained multiple times that this is how things work in MMOs – if there are 1000 copies of an item in the game world and 100,000 people want it, 99,000 people can’t have it. When the item is sellable on the TP, you need to throw more money at it than 99,000 other people to get it. If you can’t, then you won’t get one until either more items are introduced into the game world or you get more money.

This is intentional, and the system is built around having exclusive items that most people want but can’t have. This leads to a lot of jealousy, and some players are willing to destroy the system if it means they can have the things they want without working harder than other people to get it.

The irony is that most of these people wouldn’t care about the item any more if they got it this way – because most of the other 99,000 would also have it, making the item common and therefore no longer special.

tolunart.2095:

laokoko.7403:

Wanze.8410:

I dont see, how this would stop price spikes. Price spikes are usually caused by high demand and all your suggestion would do is concentrate sell listings around the actual price. But once the supply on the tp is used up, it wouldnt prevent the price to rise.
If your system was in place and wood costs 1s on average, so the minimum buy order i can put in is 65c and the highest price i can list it is 1.35s.
Now i am buying up wood because i think in a month or 2, wood will be in demand and will be worth 2s. Right now i have the possibility to post it at 2s, making it available supply for everybody. If i cant post it at 2s, i just hold on to it and wait until the price rises. Once it does, you wont have many listings between 1.35s and 2s and beyond to prevent an even higher price spike.

why not just take away buy order system. If you want to buy something go buy from the cheapest item on the trading post. That’s what most game uses.

And don’t start telling me about convenient. If you undercut by 20% to the usual price, I’m sure it’ll get sold instantly.

So instead of buy orders for wood I buy everything for sale that’s less than 2s and relist it for 2s. If I’m watching the market I can continue buying up everything I see <2s and relisting it, so most people buying wood to craft with have no choice but to buy from me, at the price I want to charge.

This is a much better system. I’d rather have people buying from me at the price I determine than placing buy orders at whatever price they are willing to pay for items.

That’s the system every game use. It already happening in this game. People buying up low supply item and re list it.

I was hoping Wanze saying something like “the price will go to equilibrium faster” =).

If you really want to buy up the wood and re list it go ahead. It’s not like you can’t farm them.

Besides arn’t you the one saying people buying out item isn’t manipulation. Something along the line that with every item that people buy out there is equal number of items in another persons bag…. or whatever. Maybe my memory is fuzzy.

Crafting mats or rare drops, the effect is the same. The ability to choose between instant purchase (sell order) or a better price (buy order) is an improvement over other game’s auction houses and trading systems. Removing this choice makes the system less useful, not better.

laokoko.7403:

Besides arn’t you the one saying people buying out item isn’t manipulation. Something along the line that with every item that people buy out there is equal number of items in another persons bag…. or whatever. Maybe my memory is fuzzy.

Not me.

But what you are proposing is to rip apart the system that exists now, making it easier for those evil “TP Barons” to manipulate the system, not harder. Buy orders allow every player to say “those sellers want too much for (item), I’m going to make an offer to pay (lower price).” Without it every buyer has no choice but to pay what the sellers are asking.

For example, say Dusk is selling for 1000g+ but you don’t want to pay that much. With buy orders, you can place an order for Dusk at 800g and see if someone is willing to accept a lower price to get their money right now. If no one takes the offer, you can continue grinding gold and cancel the order when you have more money and place a higher buy order or buy one from a seller.

In a system without buy orders, you can wait to see if the price drops, but if someone comes along and buys all the lower priced Dusks and relists them for 1500g, you lost your chance to get one for “cheap” and you are stuck waiting even longer or grinding out more gold to buy one at a huge markup.

tolunart.2095:

Crafting mats or rare drops, the effect is the same. The ability to choose between instant purchase (sell order) or a better price (buy order) is an improvement over other game’s auction houses and trading systems. Removing this choice makes the system less useful, not better.

I’m just trying to offer suggestion to some flippers who felt morally wrong. Obviously it dont’ work on the people who don’t have high moral value.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Flipper-s-Paradise-So-why-do-I-feel-bad

Morals have nothing to do with it. If you feel guilty about making too much money, you can stand around one of the cities and give stuff to random players.

Or you can realize that this is a game, and no one is going to starve because they spent all their play money on a fancy weapon skin.

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

I wasn’t talking averages. A sale defines the limits.

Item sells for 50s, max sell is 35% above, lowest buy is 35% below.
Stock runs out on 50s item, next sell is 51s, target range moves respectively.
Buy orders placed before target range moved gets refunded.
Inversely (price goes down), the highest sell moves out of range, the item is returned and the fee.

The refund rates would obviously need to be over a period of time, you wouldn’t refund if the range dipped every second. Lets say a day, just for kicks, before the TP would kick back your dough and/or your item if it didn’t sell and was out of range.

Well, your idea would definately result in less sell listing per item on the tp and more supply in peoples inventory. Every sell listing, no matter how high, is always an intend to sell. The more listings there are the easier it is for everybody to calculate the true value and supply of an item (which is ever changing) and the easier it is to indentify in demand items. The easier demand can be identified, the faster supply can be added (by farmers and hoarders), which both contributes to lessen price spikes and prices finding equilibrium faster.

I’m not really sure that’s a bad thing overall. I’ve never done the research, but just based on what you’ve shared, there seems to be a good amount of inventory not moving anywhere, so it really doesn’t matter much where it is.

As far as less listings, i doubt it. There really isn’t any reason for really high sell orders to linger on the TP for months, other than people don’t want to take the hit from the fee. This way, the lingering overpriced stock would prolly get moved out faster, since people would just sell off at a reasonable price, or let it sit in inventory.

Maybe you think more people watch that movement when it comes to selling items, but if they did, we prolly wouldn’t be having this discussion. /shrug

tolunart.2095:

laokoko.7403:

Besides arn’t you the one saying people buying out item isn’t manipulation. Something along the line that with every item that people buy out there is equal number of items in another persons bag…. or whatever. Maybe my memory is fuzzy.

Not me.

But what you are proposing is to rip apart the system that exists now, making it easier for those evil “TP Barons” to manipulate the system, not harder. Buy orders allow every player to say “those sellers want too much for (item), I’m going to make an offer to pay (lower price).” Without it every buyer has no choice but to pay what the sellers are asking.

If I recall correctly. I think other mmorpg have a listing fee and a expire time. And if item dont’ sell, you still have to pay a listing fee.

Actually I’m not even sure, since my memory is fuzzy. Kind of forget about how other game operate since it’s been a year since I played another mmorpg. I think other game just put some limit on their trading post so what you say obviously never happen.

Have you played other mmorpg before? If you havn’t, it’s hard to describe to you. Since what you said never happen in other game.

Actually I have played other MMOs and the process I described is a method I’ve used to make money there.

tolunart.2095:

Wanze.8410:

I think you just widely overestimate the average profit being made as tp merchant.
Personally, I already stated that I estimate my account wealth to be in the region of 50-60k gold and people said i make too much gold on the tp. But I also clocked more than 6k hours, so my hourly rate is less than 10 gold, which seems pretty much in line with other ways of earning gold.

But what about the guy in map chat who said he makes 1000g an hour without leaving Rata Sum? Surely he is a reliable source of information and would never exaggerate his TP profits to impress people!

That guy must be doing less QQing and more CCing to make that much money. Still, it changes nothing about this thread, which has basically become pages of “YESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOYESNOBUTIHAVEWAFFLES.”

JS, or anyone else that can, please kill it. With fire preferably, extra crispy and burnt. There’s nothing valuable in this thread.

Aidan Savage.2078:

JS, or anyone else that can, please kill it. With fire preferably, extra crispy and burnt. There’s nothing valuable in this thread.

There never was.

tolunart.2095:

Aidan Savage.2078:

JS, or anyone else that can, please kill it. With fire preferably, extra crispy and burnt. There’s nothing valuable in this thread.

There never was.

I’ve learned from reading this thread that my enjoyment of the game is terminally impaired because Wanze and people like him have more money than me. That’s valuable because it’s something I was totally unaware of before. It’s good to know that if they strip making money from the TP that I will again be able to enjoy playing.

Off I go to do more farming, something I used to enjoy, crying bitter tears all the while. ;(

tolunart.2095:

Actually I have played other MMOs and the process I described is a method I’ve used to make money there.

If you really played other mmorpg you’ll know what you said is wrong. Most mmorpg use the same system ebay is using. An action auction house which have a min bid and “possible” buyout option. People will still be able to bid lower than you do.

Sure you can buy out all wood and relist it for 2 silver. The problem is there is still min bid option so people can still buy it cheaper. And obviously you’ll be charge for listing fee if your wood didn’t sell.

The GW2 system use a system more like the stock market.

The thing is there will always be flippers. It’s just the GW2 system favors the flippers more compare to the ebay system.

laokoko.7403:

tolunart.2095:

Actually I have played other MMOs and the process I described is a method I’ve used to make money there.

If you really played other mmorpg you’ll know what you said is wrong. Most mmorpg use the same system ebay is using. An action auction house which have a min bid and buyout option. People will still be able to bid lower than you do.

Sure you can buy out all wood and relist it for 2 silver. The problem is there is still min bid option so people can still buy it cheaper. And obviously you’ll be charge for listing fee if your wood didn’t sell.

The GW2 system use a system more like the stock market.

If you want to explain a concept, first you have to have some idea of what you’re talking about. Sorry, but I can’t recall ever seeing a post from you that made sense, let alone contained correct information.

You’re not in a position to teach me anything.

tolunart.2095:

laokoko.7403:

tolunart.2095:

Actually I have played other MMOs and the process I described is a method I’ve used to make money there.

If you really played other mmorpg you’ll know what you said is wrong. Most mmorpg use the same system ebay is using. An action auction house which have a min bid and buyout option. People will still be able to bid lower than you do.

Sure you can buy out all wood and relist it for 2 silver. The problem is there is still min bid option so people can still buy it cheaper. And obviously you’ll be charge for listing fee if your wood didn’t sell.

The GW2 system use a system more like the stock market.

If you want to explain a concept, first you have to have some idea of what you’re talking about. Sorry, but I can’t recall ever seeing a post from you that made sense, let alone contained correct information.

You’re not in a position to teach me anything.

If I said anything wrong, I’ll actually admit wrong. I just dont’ understand the internet generation which no one admit they said anything wrong.

I can’t believe you are old enough to have a wife and talk the way you do.

Astral Projections.7320:

tolunart.2095:

Aidan Savage.2078:

JS, or anyone else that can, please kill it. With fire preferably, extra crispy and burnt. There’s nothing valuable in this thread.

There never was.

I’ve learned from reading this thread that my enjoyment of the game is terminally impaired because Wanze and people like him have more money than me. That’s valuable because it’s something I was totally unaware of before. It’s good to know that if they strip making money from the TP that I will again be able to enjoy playing.

Off I go to do more farming, something I used to enjoy, crying bitter tears all the while. ;(

Yeah, i basically pay Zommorros, the Prince of Profit, every day, so that he gives poor people like you bad RNG because your bad luck makes me even richer.

laokoko.7403:

If I said anything wrong, I’ll actually admit wrong. I just dont’ understand the internet generation which no one admit they said anything wrong.

I can’t believe you are old enough to have a wife and talk the way you do.

I’m 43 years old and I’ve been conversing via the internet for around 20 years now. If I don’t know what I’m talking about, I learn from people who do. You do not know what you’re talking about.

I don’t care whether you believe me or not.

Wanze.8410:

Astral Projections.7320:

tolunart.2095:

Aidan Savage.2078:

JS, or anyone else that can, please kill it. With fire preferably, extra crispy and burnt. There’s nothing valuable in this thread.

There never was.

I’ve learned from reading this thread that my enjoyment of the game is terminally impaired because Wanze and people like him have more money than me. That’s valuable because it’s something I was totally unaware of before. It’s good to know that if they strip making money from the TP that I will again be able to enjoy playing.

Off I go to do more farming, something I used to enjoy, crying bitter tears all the while. ;(

Yeah, i basically pay Zommorros, the Prince of Profit, every day, so that he gives poor people like you bad RNG because your bad luck makes me even richer.

I was being sarcastic. ^^

So far this thread has failed to explain how the trading post hurts someone like me, a dedicated farmer. All I’ve seen is statements that is does, refusals to give exact ways it does and a lot of hand waving.

tolunart.2095:

laokoko.7403:

If I said anything wrong, I’ll actually admit wrong. I just dont’ understand the internet generation which no one admit they said anything wrong.

I can’t believe you are old enough to have a wife and talk the way you do.

I’m 43 years old and I’ve been conversing via the internet for around 20 years now. If I don’t know what I’m talking about, I learn from people who do. You do not know what you’re talking about.

I don’t care whether you believe me or not.

You said having 1 uniform buy and sell price will help the evil TP Baron manipulate the price. Since they can keep buying out and relist item for more expensive price.

I said no, since if it is like the system most games use(what they use on ebay), you’ll loss listing fee if your item don’t sell. And since people can still bid on items without paying the buyout price, they dont’ need to pay the price TP Baron put up.

I suppose you’ll just stop using reasons to discuss the topic like you did last time. I really like the “what people say don’t matter since they are the minority” to talk out of every discussion.

Astral Projections.7320:

I was being sarcastic. ^^

So far this thread has failed to explain how the trading post hurts someone like me, a dedicated farmer. All I’ve seen is statements that is does, refusals to give exact ways it does and a lot of hand waving.

It’s so obvious that everyone knows it without the need for proof or explanations. And if you deny it then you’re just one of us evil TP Barons who want to steal everyone’s fake money and laugh about it while we drink their tears from golden cups.

That’s sarcasm too.

mtpelion.4562:

In this game, you still can get every reward in the game by adventuring or farming. If you don’t want to take that long, you can also trade away your things for gold, then trade that gold for the thing you want. Most other games don’t allow you to do that and force you to grind out everything for yourself.

Bottom line, Wanze is enjoying the rewards of other players because they GAVE him their rewards because they wanted to. If Wanze has a nice house, it is because the players of this game rewarded him, not the game. The game ONLY rewards adventuring and farming.

The game is also the design of the systems, which make it such that it is nigh impossible to get anything you desire without getting a bunch of stuff you have no desire for, and in fact takes up space.

You really have only two choices in order to play the game, npc items, or use the trading post. So its not that people particularly want to give their money, its that the game makes people enter the market blindly.

Also the rewards should reflect the gameplay types.
Adventuring should be the best way to earn adventurer rewards
Farming should be the best way to earn farmer rewards
Merchanting should be the best way to earn merchanting rewards

money should be used between different playtypes to get the things they want to get that dont fall into their playtypes or goals.

This way, as a whole players will place some value on the items they sell, this is their product, if it gets devalued, they will get devalued. But the best part is that even if they cant or dont get a good value for other items, they can still work towards goals most effeciently on their own paths.

What are some examples of things adventurers want? unique or special weapons and armors, things that allow them to better hunt and successfully kill enemies or find treasures and further adventures.

Farmers, want things that allow them to farm more conisistently and control and target what type of supplies they can procure. Also things that allow them to change something of low value to something of higher value through consistent effort.

Merchants, Heck i dunno, my guess is they want the fancy house and collections, and a money bin to swim in. (im not really a merchant, im just an adventurer who looks for effeciency which leads to merchanting). I Would give them expanded personal spaces, and dominance in large coordinated projects (say guild hall customization) Of course they would want things that make trading etc more convenient (they have some of these like personal black lion traders, merchants, mystic forge, power trader etc)

My point is that the reason TP profits and class/playstyle disparity is an issue, is because
1)most high end game rewards are based around wealth

2)in order to get things for your playstyle, you have to go out of your playstyle and do what they do, or spend 3-10 times as much time doing it. you also must meet a minimal amount of earning or else you will just be battling inflation.

red.2387:

All the profits that the Trading Post manipulators make for themselves comes via artificially increasing the prices for everyone else. The TP is a rampant speculation market. The problem isn’t that the rich are rich, its that they extracted value from buyers to get there.

manipulator is bad word here.

But yes, by its very definition all money that traders make and amass directly comes out of the hands of suppliers and users. So yes, traders do in fact devalue items for sellers, and inflate it for buyers.

But in their defense, they can only do this where there is greater than 10% difference in what buyers and sellers are pricing.
What they would say they are offering sellers is more liquidity, and a better value without having to do the research, not sure what they offer buyers, probably nothing.
In practice though, they generally arent offering sellers much because they generally try to give the minimum amount possible to sellers just as buyers would have.

regardless they are here and they aint going anywhere. The only way to actually really mitigate them is for less uneducated sellers and buyers to be in the market, but thats unlikely due to the nature of the reward design systems.

laokoko.7403:

tolunart.2095:

laokoko.7403:

If I said anything wrong, I’ll actually admit wrong. I just dont’ understand the internet generation which no one admit they said anything wrong.

I can’t believe you are old enough to have a wife and talk the way you do.

I’m 43 years old and I’ve been conversing via the internet for around 20 years now. If I don’t know what I’m talking about, I learn from people who do. You do not know what you’re talking about.

I don’t care whether you believe me or not.

You said having 1 uniform buy and sell price will help the evil TP Baron manipulate the price. Since they can keep buying out and relist item for more expensive price.

I said no, since if it is like the system most games use(what they use on ebay), you’ll loss listing fee if your item don’t sell. And since people can still bid on items without paying the buyout price, they dont’ need to pay the price TP Baron put up.

I suppose you’ll just stop using reasons to discuss the topic like you did last time. I really like the “what people say don’t matter since they are the minority” to talk out of every discussion.

No, the problem is that you just don’t comprehend what we’re talking about. You make up your own conclusions and act as though you know what I mean when you don’t have the slightest idea what I actually said.

Let me try to explain something to you.

My first MMO was Rift. The AH there works the way you mentioned. There are no buy orders, just timed auctions with a “buy now” option for a fixed price. Like most MMOs, the AH only covers a single server, unlike GW2 which pools dozens of servers into the same market.

Now, there are daily crafting quests in Rift, such as “craft six Oak Wands.” This means that the materials to craft Oak Wands, such as oak wood, are in demand because a lot of players will use several pieces of oak wood every day.

Most players don’t bother selling on the AH, either it takes too long or it’s too confusing, whatever. When I go to the AH to buy oak wood for the crafting quests, there’s only a few pieces available, sometimes none at all.

So I started keeping an eye on the TP and learning what the average prices were. When I saw oak wood for sale at a good price, I bought it even if I didn’t need it for the crafting quests any more. I knew other people need it, and would pay more for it than I did.

So I bought up several dozen pieces of oak wood this way, and put them back on the AH at a much higher price. Sometimes someone else comes along and sells some for less than I do, but if I see it then I just buy that oak wood and add it to my supply and sell it at my price.

Most of the time it sells, even at a price that 2x, 3x, 4x what I paid for it. I made a lot of money that way, and used the money to buy larger quantities of items and sell them for a profit, eventually making a lot of money each week. Enough that I could buy the materials and gear that I wanted and still have plenty of money left.

In addition, in Rift each toon can transfer servers once a week, for free. So I started looking at the markets for other servers, and when I see that Server A has a lot of oak wood for sale cheap, and Server B has only a few pieces of oak wood at a much higher price, then I buy all the oak wood on Server A, transfer to server B, and sell it for a much higher price.

I went from making a lot of money to making an obscene amount of money. I did what people here complain about. I took 100 platinum (1p in Rift = 1g here) and in a week I turned it into 200p, in a month I turned it into 1000p.

Eventually I got bored because there was no challenge to it, just a simple formula, buy cheap stuff on Server A, transfer to Server B and sell it, double triple or quadruple my money. I did this with a lot of different items, anything that sold for a higher price than I could buy it at. I did this with several toons, transferring back and forth once a week, and ever week I at least doubled my money.

So when I say that I have done it, I mean exactly that – I did this in other games, and the way the TP is set up here the market is much more fair for all players, and much harder to manipulate.

phys.7689:

The game is also the design of the systems, which make it such that it is nigh impossible to get anything you desire without getting a bunch of stuff you have no desire for, and in fact takes up space.

You really have only two choices in order to play the game, npc items, or use the trading post. So its not that people particularly want to give their money, its that the game makes people enter the market blindly.

Also the rewards should reflect the gameplay types.
Adventuring should be the best way to earn adventurer rewards
Farming should be the best way to earn farmer rewards
Merchanting should be the best way to earn merchanting rewards

money should be used between different playtypes to get the things they want to get that dont fall into their playtypes or goals.

I understand what you’re saying, that you don’t like the way the game is designed. Unfortunately, you are not in charge of designing the game and there is very little chance that complaining about it here will cause the game to become what you want it to be.

There are many different kinds of games out there to play. I have to wonder why you would rather waste your time demanding change that will not happen when you could be looking for a game that is a closer match to the kind of game you want to play.

I mean, I like Italian food. McDonald’s doesn’t serve Italian food. Which is better, to go to the nearest McDonald’s and stand in the middle of the restaurant demanding that they serve me Italian food, or going to an Italian restaurant and ordering Italian food because that’s what they make?

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

The game is also the design of the systems, which make it such that it is nigh impossible to get anything you desire without getting a bunch of stuff you have no desire for, and in fact takes up space.

You really have only two choices in order to play the game, npc items, or use the trading post. So its not that people particularly want to give their money, its that the game makes people enter the market blindly.

Also the rewards should reflect the gameplay types.
Adventuring should be the best way to earn adventurer rewards
Farming should be the best way to earn farmer rewards
Merchanting should be the best way to earn merchanting rewards

money should be used between different playtypes to get the things they want to get that dont fall into their playtypes or goals.

I understand what you’re saying, that you don’t like the way the game is designed. Unfortunately, you are not in charge of designing the game and there is very little chance that complaining about it here will cause the game to become what you want it to be.

There are many different kinds of games out there to play. I have to wonder why you would rather waste your time demanding change that will not happen when you could be looking for a game that is a closer match to the kind of game you want to play.

I mean, I like Italian food. McDonald’s doesn’t serve Italian food. Which is better, to go to the nearest McDonald’s and stand in the middle of the restaurant demanding that they serve me Italian food, or going to an Italian restaurant and ordering Italian food because that’s what they make?

Im just letting them know, where i believe they are making mistakes. Thats what feedback is about. And no, not everything they do is the best answer just because they do it. They make mistakes just like anyone else. If people dont try to change things then nothing ever progresses.

I get that you like the systems, because it reinforces your gameplay type. But do you realize that a large amount of press and in game belief is that GW2 is really bad with reward design? This has been admited by developers. I am saying a major facet of the feelings many people have of a lack of endgame, and poor reward structures have to do with the imbalance in earning of rewards through one method of play, that is not what many people thought they were signing on to.

Either they just designed the reward to effort ratio poorly, or they designed it with a lower end merchanter in mind, because the amount of time it takes regular play to achieve endgame goals is off the wall compared to the alternatives.

also, the content is good, the battle in mid sized groups entertains me. Its a shame the rewards structure doesnt encourage me to replay these types of content, and instead i spend disproportionate time in a city merchanting, and talking on forums waiting for buy/sell orders to fill.

phys.7689:

Im just letting them know, where i believe they are making mistakes. Thats what feedback is about. And no, not everything they do is the best answer just because they do it. They make mistakes just like anyone else. If people dont try to change things then nothing ever progresses.

You’ve said your piece over and over and over and over. When does it stop being “feedback” and become “noise?”

The current system is an improvement over other MMOs – see my post above about my AH manipulations in Rift. It’s incredibly easy to take any amount of money in that game and double it in less than a week, then double that the next week, and so on, until you are sitting on more money than you can spend.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

Im just letting them know, where i believe they are making mistakes. Thats what feedback is about. And no, not everything they do is the best answer just because they do it. They make mistakes just like anyone else. If people dont try to change things then nothing ever progresses.

You’ve said your piece over and over and over and over. When does it stop being “feedback” and become “noise?”

The current system is an improvement over other MMOs – see my post above about my AH manipulations in Rift. It’s incredibly easy to take any amount of money in that game and double it in less than a week, then double that the next week, etkittenil you are sitting on more money than you can spend.

So to combat this “noise” you make more “noise” yourself? That’s genius! His stereo is too loud! I’ll turn mine up to drone his out. That’ll solve the noise issue…………

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

Im just letting them know, where i believe they are making mistakes. Thats what feedback is about. And no, not everything they do is the best answer just because they do it. They make mistakes just like anyone else. If people dont try to change things then nothing ever progresses.

You’ve said your piece over and over and over and over. When does it stop being “feedback” and become “noise?”

The current system is an improvement over other MMOs – see my post above about my AH manipulations in Rift. It’s incredibly easy to take any amount of money in that game and double it in less than a week, then double that the next week, and so on, until you are sitting on more money than you can spend.

all you said is you server hop. and you buy out an item which is limited supply. If people want to buy items cheap they can just place a cheaper bid.

If that’s the case. You can do it even if Rift use the GW2 system.

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

The game is also the design of the systems, which make it such that it is nigh impossible to get anything you desire without getting a bunch of stuff you have no desire for, and in fact takes up space.

You really have only two choices in order to play the game, npc items, or use the trading post. So its not that people particularly want to give their money, its that the game makes people enter the market blindly.

Also the rewards should reflect the gameplay types.
Adventuring should be the best way to earn adventurer rewards
Farming should be the best way to earn farmer rewards
Merchanting should be the best way to earn merchanting rewards

money should be used between different playtypes to get the things they want to get that dont fall into their playtypes or goals.

I understand what you’re saying, that you don’t like the way the game is designed. Unfortunately, you are not in charge of designing the game and there is very little chance that complaining about it here will cause the game to become what you want it to be.

There are many different kinds of games out there to play. I have to wonder why you would rather waste your time demanding change that will not happen when you could be looking for a game that is a closer match to the kind of game you want to play.

I mean, I like Italian food. McDonald’s doesn’t serve Italian food. Which is better, to go to the nearest McDonald’s and stand in the middle of the restaurant demanding that they serve me Italian food, or going to an Italian restaurant and ordering Italian food because that’s what they make?

Im just letting them know, where i believe they are making mistakes. Thats what feedback is about. And no, not everything they do is the best answer just because they do it. They make mistakes just like anyone else. If people dont try to change things then nothing ever progresses.

I get that you like the systems, because it reinforces your gameplay type. But do you realize that a large amount of press and in game belief is that GW2 is really bad with reward design? This has been admited by developers. I am saying a major facet of the feelings many people have of a lack of endgame, and poor reward structures have to do with the imbalance in earning of rewards through one method of play, that is not what many people thought they were signing on to.

Either they just designed the reward to effort ratio poorly, or they designed it with a lower end merchanter in mind, because the amount of time it takes regular play to achieve endgame goals is off the wall compared to the alternatives.

also, the content is good, the battle in mid sized groups entertains me. Its a shame the rewards structure doesnt encourage me to replay these types of content, and instead i spend disproportionate time in a city merchanting, and talking on forums waiting for buy/sell orders to fill.

If you want to discuss reward structures that fair enough but you have to realize that profits on the tp are not rewards, its a completely different game mechanic and player regulated. Merchants make profits because they offer convenience to players. If your aim is to regulate profits you can only do so by regulating convenience along the way.
This will result in a worse game experience for most people because the elimination of the merchant class wont offer regular players a faster way to desired rewards.
Reworking reward tracks towards those rewards is a good way to go about that but it has absolutely nothing to do with potential profits on the TP.

Essence Snow.3194:

So to combat this “noise” you make more “noise” yourself? That’s genius! His stereo is too loud! I’ll turn mine up to drone his out. That’ll solve the noise issue…………

I don’t need to convince JS to keep the TP the way it is, he already agrees that this is the best system they can come up with. The burden is on the other side to prove that their plans are better than what we have now.

Thirty-two pages of discussion now and they have spectacularly failed to show that there is anything wrong with the system as it exists, let alone prove that they can come up with something better.

Since this is the most efficient and fairest marketplace I’ve seen in an MMO, saying “you should throw this away and be like Rift’s marketplace” just doesn’t work.