Guild Wars 2

There is also the possibility of account bount rewards so players can earn somethings without directly contributing to the total economies resource.

The current implementations often put the macro economy ahead of the actual player experience/game design.

phys.7689:

<snip>

People have explained why there can be a difference in potential “gain” between the two systems about nine thousand times in this thread and others like it thus far, so I am unsure why you seem to be asking the same question thirty odd pages into the thread.

Do you really have to ask why “rewards” might not the same between two systems with such massively different underlying core mechanics? I’d have said the reasons are obvious.

The differences and reasons why extend far, far beyond the scope of just “because one is a gold sink”.

phys.7689:

See i have a few problems with this idea of player education.

1)the fact that players need education on the TP in order to get full value of their playtime, suggests that the TP/merchanting is a core gameplay mode/design of the game. If so, i really wish they had marketed it as such

2) If TP /merchanting is a core gameplay mode/design it needs way more tutorials, warnings, information, UI and design/regulations in place. If the game is primarily messed up due to players who cant play infesting the game mode, why does the game actively push them into the game mode? Where is the gear/liscence check on TP playing. Why are pro veteran TP players taking advantage of noobs?

3)Even if the tp is supposed to be one core gameplay mechanic, why is it more dominant than others with respect to obtaining rewards. Before you say because other playtypes inflate the economy, ask yourself why they are not some designs in place that dont inflate the economy, but reward other playstyles.

1) JS had a blogpost about wealth distribution and other stuff concerning the economy during beta, which in my eyes is some kind of marketing. He also had a long blogpost about market disequilibrium prior to the introduction of ascended crafting/account mf and mentioned several times that the trading post and its functions are an integral part of tyria and the game.

2) I wouldnt call it core gameplay because first of all, its a tool for everybody to buy and sell items, which is very convenient. However, i wouldnt mind tutorials to be added and an seeing an overhaul of the tp UI with more info. I disagree that the game pushes people to make profits on the tp in order to play the game because the gold you earn through regular gameplay is enough to enjoy all core aspects of the game. However, the TP encourages players to make smart choices, which is always a good thing. There is a learning curve involved and the more you learn, the more value you will get for your loot. I think its more hazardous to the game, if new players get constantly told that there are a bunch of rich players that completely screw up the economy while making thousands of gold, which is simply not true. What you are trying to do is nerf end game content to noob content. How does that evolve a game?

3) This is one of the biggest misconceptions regarding profit on the tp. The rewards (read:profits. @ Essence Snow) being made on the TP are blown well out of proportion on a regular basis. Sure, there are players like me but our numbers are so small that we basically dont have any impact on the economy compared to the amount of gold, supply and demand the general player base generates. In a macroeconomic sense, I am actually one (little) reason, why this economy has been as stable as it is (not arguing if it has been a stable or unstable economy but without me, it would be worse).
I understand that from your point of view that it might look a little unfair because i accumulate wealth at this rate solely through the tp. But its only because it enables me to get the rewards YOU want, at a faster rare. But the truth is that i dont purchase those rewards at a higher than anybody else just because i could. They are mostly meaningless to me because the amount of legendaries i wield doesnt influence the amount of gold i make on the tp. In fact, I have far less of these “endgame rewards” of yours than most other players with the same /age as me that i know.
Do you know why I dont craft more legendaries and ascended gear than the average player? I certainly have the gold but i am running short on Karma, Skillpoints, Laurels, tokens, badges, dragonite ore, empyreal shards, bloodstone dust and map completions to craft a new one of those every month. Why?
Because my favourite game mode, my core gameplay for a couple of hours every day, doesnt reward me with those things. Do you see the dilemma? Both of us are slowed down to acquire those shinies because our favourite game modes give out different currencies and different rates. The difference is that you dont see me complaining about it on the forums.

You need to first ask yourself “Why am I playing?” You can’t keep saying “I want balance” when you’re the one determining how you play. For instance:

-If you’re just playing the way you want, because you like it, then your reward is “fun and entertainment”.

-If you’re playing to make money, then your reward is items and coin.

I WvW a lot. Sometimes I’m killing people and getting loot. Other times I’m defending keeps by building siege. One choice gives me items and coin as drops, as well as WXP. The other gives my server more PPT because we’re holding onto locations. I make the choice to sacrifice loot bags in order to help my server.

So as you can see, it’s not a matter of time = rewards. It’s a matter of how you use your time in the first place. If I need to farm for money, and it’s boring as heck, I’ll still do it because I need the money. If I decide to sit at the TP for 3 hours, researching items to buy and sell, that’s also a choice I make.

Borghal.1635:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, you make the mistake of comparing rewards from events and quests, to TP profits. These are two inherently different things. One creates items and coin, the other trades it with a Gold Sink attached. I’ll try to explain it below.

Or, you know, you’re making the mistake of making a distinction where one is not relevant for the issue.

The reasons why it is unimportant have been stated many times already.

We know that many people have a micro-economic issue but you are trying to solve it by changing macro-economics. Those issues you have are only solved by changing the players behaviour or his rewards but this topic isnt about reward tracks outside of the tp.

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

<snip>

People have explained why there can be a difference in potential “gain” between the two systems about nine thousand times in this thread and others like it thus far, so I am unsure why you seem to be asking the same question thirty odd pages into the thread.

Do you really have to ask why “rewards” might not the same between two systems with such massively different underlying core mechanics? I’d have said the reasons are obvious.

The differences and reasons why extend far, far beyond the scope of just “because one is a gold sink”.

I perfectly understand the difference, let me break this down into simple series of questions, so people dont misunderstand me.

Assuming the macro economy is not an issue, or assuming that two playstyles use the same type of structure, say for example both are reward reallocation

Do you agree that both playstyles should have the same earning potential(when played well or properly)?

phys.7689:

I perfectly understand the difference, let me break this down into simple series of questions, so people dont misunderstand me.

Assuming the macro economy is not an issue, or assuming that two playstyles use the same type of structure, say for example both are reward reallocation

Do you agree that both playstyles should have the same earning potential(when played well or properly)?

No, I would not say that two systems both being “reward reallocation” centric should mean that they both give the same earning potential.

But if two systems were identical in every single aspect, then there would ofc be a case to be made for equal earning potential across the systems. Still, even then there would be a disparity in earning potential between groups within said system.

phys.7689:

It can be balanced, but im guessing you are saying it wouldnt be a good idea.
That said why doesnt anet come up with more solutions for the players to reward other playtypes. Spvp tournaments with gold entrance fees (pot awarded to winners) Formal mercenary questing/player created systems, Mercenary hiring in WvW. Competitive dungeoning, pay to enter, winner per cycle keeps the cash per cycle etc. There are tons of ways, and services that dont create items they could introduce for other playstyles.

btw rewards is a poor term for what you guys are talking about, because player reward in terms of what they get per hour, from the server/other players must be considered in design as well.
i would say something like generating resources if i wanted to be clear in my meaning.

See? That are in my opinion actually some pretty good ideas because they enable players to choose their value of rewards, while more risk is being more rewarded and its a pvp environment or you get paid for your time. Its also not a gold faucet because it doesnt generate gold and could potentially be used as a gold sink (if needed in the future) by taking off a percentage. For me it looks like very similar a system as the TP for making profits with the only difference that different skillsets are being rewarded.

And do you know why Anet doesnt come up with those ideas?
Because suggestions like yours are buried in a 1500+ post topic about something completely different that for the most part steered off course and I wouldnt be surprised, if any dev stopped bothering to read a long time ago.
Make a suggestion topic about this in general discussions, if you want to get some feedback from other players and maybe devs about the general idea or if you prefer to discuss specific ways of wagers between players, post in the wvw/pvp/dungeon forums.

phys.7689:

I perfectly understand the difference, let me break this down into simple series of questions, so people dont misunderstand me.

Assuming the macro economy is not an issue, or assuming that two playstyles use the same type of structure, say for example both are reward reallocation

Do you agree that both playstyles should have the same earning potential(when played well or properly)?

As long as the formula is simply “Do X, get loot”, then it’s already in game. No two items are worth the same to different players, so you can’t bring balance to the equation. Kill the Shadow Behemoth, get Final Rest. Kill mega hologram Scarlet, get Scarlet’s Kiss rifle. How do you balance that?

Note – I’m not talking about the Gold value, but rather the skin.

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

I perfectly understand the difference, let me break this down into simple series of questions, so people dont misunderstand me.

Assuming the macro economy is not an issue, or assuming that two playstyles use the same type of structure, say for example both are reward reallocation

Do you agree that both playstyles should have the same earning potential(when played well or properly)?

No, I would not say that two systems both being “reward reallocation” centric should mean that they both give the same earning potential.

But if two systems were identical in every single aspect, then there would ofc be a case to be made for equal earning potential across the systems. Still, even then there would be a disparity in earning potential between groups within said system.

I said potential, not actual. One would assume that actual would be based on demand, and skill etc. But you have answered enough.

It appears we disagree fundamentally. While i dont think every player should earn the same thing, i think that one should aim for similar earning potentials in a best case scenario when done well. The logical reason i can see to award players differently is when they specifically want to incentivize certain behaviours that better that benefit the game.

but since we disagree on that point, we dont have much common ground to come to an understanding.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

I perfectly understand the difference, let me break this down into simple series of questions, so people dont misunderstand me.

Assuming the macro economy is not an issue, or assuming that two playstyles use the same type of structure, say for example both are reward reallocation

Do you agree that both playstyles should have the same earning potential(when played well or properly)?

As long as the formula is simply “Do X, get loot”, then it’s already in game. No two items are worth the same to different players, so you can’t bring balance to the equation. Kill the Shadow Behemoth, get Final Rest. Kill mega hologram Scarlet, get Scarlet’s Kiss rifle. How do you balance that?

Note – I’m not talking about the Gold value, but rather the skin.

Not sure what you are getting at here, not like saying it makes no sense, just saying i dont understand what you mean.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

I perfectly understand the difference, let me break this down into simple series of questions, so people dont misunderstand me.

Assuming the macro economy is not an issue, or assuming that two playstyles use the same type of structure, say for example both are reward reallocation

Do you agree that both playstyles should have the same earning potential(when played well or properly)?

As long as the formula is simply “Do X, get loot”, then it’s already in game. No two items are worth the same to different players, so you can’t bring balance to the equation. Kill the Shadow Behemoth, get Final Rest. Kill mega hologram Scarlet, get Scarlet’s Kiss rifle. How do you balance that?

Note – I’m not talking about the Gold value, but rather the skin.

Not sure what you are getting at here, not like saying it makes no sense, just saying i dont understand what you mean.

What I’m getting at is that rewards are balanced based on the simple formula: Do X event → Get a reward from a loot table based on the event done.

So if you kill X boss, you get rewards from his loot table.

If you kill X player in WvW, you get rewards from his loot table.

If you complete X event, you get rewards from that loot table.

It’s all balanced when you don’t count actual market values. Now when you add in the market, that’s when everything is out of whack. That’s because player demand will alter prices. In my previous example, do I want to take the time to farm Final Rest, or take the time to farm Scarlet’s Kiss (where both have an equal chance to drop). If both took an average of 50 runs to get, but one is worth 4 Gold, while the other is worth 200 Gold, which would you do for profit?

phys.7689:

I said potential, not actual. One would assume that actual would be based on demand, and skill etc. But you have answered enough.

It appears we disagree fundamentally. While i dont think every player should earn the same thing, i think that one should aim for similar earning potentials in a best case scenario when done well. The logical reason i can see to award players differently is when they specifically want to incentivize certain behaviours that better that benefit the game.

but since we disagree on that point, we dont have much common ground to come to an understanding.

If you think systems should have the same “potential” rewards regardless as to the fact that their mechanics are different then yes, it is clear that we don’t share common ground as that idea makes zero sense to me.

The “logical” reason for differences in potential rewards cross system is due to the inherent difference between the systems structures. The differences in potential rewards within the systems then boils down to player driven factors.

Take the example below, (note it is a hypothetical example and not an comprehensive outline of the differences between pve and the market model):

SYSTEM A –
1. Zero risk.
2. Zero capital needed.
3. Non competitive/non zero sum.
4. Grants secondary rewards.
5. Can earn gold from it.

SYSTEM B -
1. High risk.
2. Large capital needed.
3. Competitive/zero sum.
4. Grants no secondary rewards.
5. Can earn gold from it.

Now you suggest that system A should give the same “potential” return in terms of gold gain (point 5.) as B, really?

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

I said potential, not actual. One would assume that actual would be based on demand, and skill etc. But you have answered enough.

It appears we disagree fundamentally. While i dont think every player should earn the same thing, i think that one should aim for similar earning potentials in a best case scenario when done well. The logical reason i can see to award players differently is when they specifically want to incentivize certain behaviours that better that benefit the game.

but since we disagree on that point, we dont have much common ground to come to an understanding.

If you think systems should have the same “potential” rewards regardless as to the fact that their mechanics are different then yes, it is clear that we don’t share common ground as that idea makes zero sense to me.

The “logical” reason for differences in potential rewards cross system is due to the inherent difference between the systems structures. The differences in potential rewards within the systems then boils down to player driven factors.

Take the example below, (note it is a hypothetical example and not an comprehensive outline of the differences between pve and the market model):

SYSTEM A –
1. Zero risk.
2. Zero capital needed.
3. Non competitive/non zero sum.
4. Grants secondary rewards.
5. Can earn gold from it.

SYSTEM B -
1. High risk.
2. Large capital needed.
3. Competitive/zero sum.
4. Grants no secondary rewards.
5. Can earn gold from it.

Now you suggest that system A should give the same “potential” return in terms of gold gain (point 5.) as B, really?

You did a nice job with this post. It’s what was inside my head, but I had no idea how to write it down. I think I tried to a few pages back, where I argued that if you want to balance the two, then you also have to balance the amount of money I lost from bad investments.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

To prove to you that this is a fact, I’ll conduct a small experiment on you. Tell me how much Gold you have free,

265

Smooth Penguin.5294:

and how much total Karma you have available.

1,513,309

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Then tell me which item you want to buy the most (only 1).

Dawn

Which unless the numbers have changed, means that 500,000 or so karma is free and loose, as it takes about 1 million karma to obtain the necessary clovers and friends.

If your method is that guaranteed though, feel free to use all the karma and we’ll just go straight to Sunrise as said item. Either way works for me.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

And I’ll tell you how to get it with guaranteed results. Consider this a gift from your friendly neighborhood Penguin.

Here’s your numbers. Have fun.

Let me crunch my numbers to be sure I give you accurate feedback. I’ll probably have to reply with the results late tonite, or tomorrow.

oooooh! hey can you do this for me too please but replace dawn with the hunter and i only have 58g but same karma as him (if you did his already; haven’t finished reading the whole topic)

:)

Fenrir.3609:

Now you suggest that system A should give the same “potential” return in terms of gold gain (point 5.) as B, really?

Sure, because we are not in a competitive game as a whole. In PvE, you shouldn’t have to compete with others, that’s what PvP is for.

The competitive/risk element of B is the problem, really.

Competing directly with other players should be a choice.

Using the TP as it stands is not a choice, though.

Dark Jericho.8609:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

To prove to you that this is a fact, I’ll conduct a small experiment on you. Tell me how much Gold you have free,

265

Smooth Penguin.5294:

and how much total Karma you have available.

1,513,309

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Then tell me which item you want to buy the most (only 1).

Dawn

Which unless the numbers have changed, means that 500,000 or so karma is free and loose, as it takes about 1 million karma to obtain the necessary clovers and friends.

If your method is that guaranteed though, feel free to use all the karma and we’ll just go straight to Sunrise as said item. Either way works for me.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

And I’ll tell you how to get it with guaranteed results. Consider this a gift from your friendly neighborhood Penguin.

Here’s your numbers. Have fun.

Let me crunch my numbers to be sure I give you accurate feedback. I’ll probably have to reply with the results late tonite, or tomorrow.

oooooh! hey can you do this for me too please but replace dawn with the hunter and i only have 58g but same karma as him (if you did his already; haven’t finished reading the whole topic)

:)

Yeah I PM’d him some data. My HD on my laptop had to be formatted, so I lost some of my research. Basically, 476 Karma = ~5 Silver when you convert it to coinage. Long story short, you MF the following, and then salvage what comes out to get Linen. Then you sell the Linen.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloth_Vigil_Chestpiece#Fine

If you casually farm Karma in WvW, you can get roughly 25k per hour. Hardcores with Karma boosts can get a lot more, but it depends on your playstyle. So then it becomes a matter of how much time you want to invest into this.

The point of that post was to show that there are ways to generate income to get what you want. Set a goal, and make the choice to farm. Over time, you can get anything you want. If you want that Jetpack so bad, you can buy it from the TP after farming enough Gold. If you want that Precursor, you need to make an effort to get it. Sometimes RNG shines on you. Sometimes, you need to put in a lot of effort and time. But nothing in this game is unreachable thanks to the TP.

phys.7689:

Do you agree that both playstyles should have the same earning potential(when played well or properly)?

I have to agree with Fenrir and would like to tell you why. Right now different activities reward different things at different pace. Thats how it has always been and how it ever will be. Of course we should always try to find the right balance and i think Anet is at least trying, if you see how much changes they implemented since launch towards reward structures. But total balance between game modes would not be in the best interest of the game. This is my personal point of view:
I hit lvl 80 a month after release, i think, and then started my grand quest for my first legendary like every other noob. And i really was a noob. Even though i have over 20 years of gaming experience, I only played LOTRO for a year or two, which basically was all my experience with online gaming, I never played any other kind of online pvp or pve except some online poker. I started out with map completion which was pretty easy because i was used to solo rgps and there were tons of people doing dynamic events for the first time just like me. Like every noob, i realized to my instant dissatisfaction, that i have to step into wvw to get map completion. As this was a gamemode that i never done before, i wasnt too keen on going there but thought i might as well because i need the badges. I had done some cof1 runs before (its what you did, then) so there i was for the first time at home bl spawn with my brand new exotic cof armor,temple trinket, zerker warrior, GS/Rifle build, just like any other noob.
I died, alot, but once i had home border and half of the other maps complete, I really liked it and now its one of my favourite game modes. Shortly after I had map completion, some guy in wvw map chat even told me that i can slot utility skills under water, until then, i never knew. I was a noob. Afterwards, i focussed on the non specific gifts that were needed for every legendary because at that time, i wasnt sure for which legendary to go for yet. While trying to get all my t6 and account bound mats, i basically tried any aspect of the game, gathering, dungeons, farming mobs and events, fractals, wvw, crafting, Living Story, achievements, you name it. SPvP was the only thing i didnt really do. So my journey towards my legendary introduced me to all the game has to offer, which in retrospective, was a very good way of Anet to show me everything the game has to offer. And I tried everything to a degree that i could establish the average rewards and fun each game mode offers me. Crafting a legendary also introduced me to the trading post and mystic forge, because you have to use both. Just like any other game mode, I also invested some time looking into what rewards and fun those game features offer me. The forge taught me alot about rng in this game and i realized that i can make some gold, if I know more about rng odds than other people. Spending some time on the TP taught me that it basically is a tool that lets you choose your own value of the rewards you get from other game modes and people value their rewards very differently.
My knowledge about all aspects of reward systems in different game modes actually proved to be a huge advantage in identifing, which items are valued quite differently at the moment and maybe will be in the future. By now, you might have guessed, the TP is my favourite game feature, its my core gameplay and the main reason, why i log into this game on a daily basis. Why? Because its fun and challenging to me in a general sense, i take great pride in making profit by being more efficient than others at something. The profit I make has 2 basic functions for me, first of all its a measure of success, a reward, just like any other reward in the game, but it scales far better, depending on how good you are. Thats is something, you (phys) would also like to see for all the other game modes, i think.
The 2nd function of my profit for me is that gold is all i need to play my favourite game mode. I guess thats also something you would like to see for other game modes, so you can reach all your goals by engaging in just them, which, in a totally balanced reward system, would be possible.

…

….
So why do i disagree with that? Because it would push you towards experiencing less of the game content, or at least try it out.
If it wasnt for my legendary quest, i would have never experienced many aspects of the game, like wvw and the trading post and might have uninstalled the game long ago.
While playing the tp, i realized that my experience of other game features and their rewards made me more efficient at playing the tp. That causes me to go back and test out other game modes, when their rewards get changed. Since last patch i have done more pvp than before since launch. I think as Developer, Anet should aim at engaging every player with every game mode at least once and again in while to keep them logged in and in my case, they did that rather well by making me craft a legendary and introducing me to the trading post, which is my core gameplay and makes me revisit all content on a regular basis. If i could have earned a legendary by just doing map completions, i might have done that, so i dont think that a totally balanced reward system will be beneficial to the game.

Borghal.1635:

Fenrir.3609:

Now you suggest that system A should give the same “potential” return in terms of gold gain (point 5.) as B, really?

Sure, because we are not in a competitive game as a whole. In PvE, you shouldn’t have to compete with others, that’s what PvP is for.

The competitive/risk element of B is the problem, really.

Competing directly with other players should be a choice.

1. Whether the game is competitive as a whole makes no difference to the demonstration of two disparate systems I presented. Now if you look at the two systems in the example I gave and thought “yep, they should both give the same potential gold gain!”, then, well, wow.

2. The active competitive/risk element of system B is not the issue, the issue is certain people taking part in system A thinking they have the god given right to the potential gold gain people in system B might realise, without wanting to touch the mechanics needed to unclock said potential gold gain.

3. You do have a choice to compete with other players or not. You might not have much of a choice in terms of using the TP, but simply using it to buy and sell goods you need is not the same as trying to compete in, make gold purely from and take on the risk of the TP. So yes, you have all the choice in the world. As per point 2, the issue is those players taking on zero competition and zero risk et al, seem to think they somehow deserve any potential gold gain upside that those who do take on said competition and risk might possibly achieve.

Let’s get this straight so I fully understand your position. You think that every system should offer the same potential gold reward regardless as to the fact that the mechanics, merits and factors involved might be utterly different?

Fenrir.3609:

Now you suggest that system A should give the same “potential” return in terms of gold gain (point 5.) as B, really?

Actually, I believe the distribution of potential return is the same and over a large range of values for the various factors in system A and B. I’m no economist but I believe it has to be that way because they share a common medium of exchange (i.e. gold).

That’s why I can’t fathom why people think this is a problem. It’s clear they don’t get it from how they talk about the few people that make a fortune on the TP, forgetting the many people that lose on the TP. I would suspect the parameters that influence this equilibrium are the kinds of things that JS tracks and uses to make his definite statements.

On the other hand, I do see a problem with the case where ‘potential’ to earn is unbalanced. If the TP was so harsh in it’s taxes/fee structure, the economy would revert to bartering. If it was too easy to make money on the TP, more people who don’t know the value of items would end up paying more for goods and prices would increase.

We don’t have either of those situations. Feels balanced to me.

Fenrir.3609:

Let’s get this straight so I fully understand your position. You think that every system should offer the same potential gold reward regardless as to the fact that the mechanics, merits and factors involved might be utterly different?

It is important to understand the circumstances.
When it comes to a game that offers so many different playstyles yet presents goals that are not unique to each playstyle (as in, everybody needs to farm gold at some point) but actually common across all activities (as the much-discussed Legendary weapons certainly are), YES every player should have the same odds of “success” regardless of which path they enjoy.

I’m of the opinion that whatever play path you enjoy, if you set out for such a goal, you should reach it at a constant speed given only by your effort and not by which path you are taking. As in, all ingame activities, provided you do them to the max potential, provide around the same average gold per hour.

Of course what I’d really like would be account-bound rewards specific to each paths, but that is even less doable, obviously. Currently you have dungeon sets, which are exactly what I have in mind – that’s fine, but it’s too little. WvW players get nothing special. PvP get nothing special. Open-world content guys get nothing special. But the rest of items, which is a vast majority, is obtainable by GOLD. If you want to work efficiently towards your goal, you have but one path to choose. If you don’t someone’s gonna beat you to it. Holds especially true for precursors.

Borghal.1635:

Fenrir.3609:

Let’s get this straight so I fully understand your position. You think that every system should offer the same potential gold reward regardless as to the fact that the mechanics, merits and factors involved might be utterly different?

It is important to understand the circumstances.
When it comes to a game that offers so many different playstyles yet presents goals that are not unique to each playstyle (as in, everybody needs to farm gold at some point) but actually common across all activities (as the much-discussed Legendary weapons certainly are), YES every player should have the same odds of “success” regardless of which path they enjoy.

I’m of the opinion that whatever play path you enjoy, if you set out for such a goal, you should reach it at a constant speed given only by your effort and not by which path you are taking. As in, all ingame activities, provided you do them to the max potential, provide around the same average gold per hour.

Of course what I’d really like would be account-bound rewards specific to each paths, but that is even less doable, obviously. Currently you have dungeon sets, which are exactly what I have in mind – that’s fine, but it’s too little. WvW players get nothing special. PvP get nothing special. Open-world content guys get nothing special. But the rest of items, which is a vast majority, is obtainable by GOLD. If you want to work efficiently towards your goal, you have but one path to choose. If you don’t someone’s gonna beat you to it. Holds especially true for precursors.

This only works if all paths are equal. That would mean there’d be only one single playstyle. Thankfully, GW2 allows for different things to do in the world. If I want to spend 10 hours in Keg Brawl rather than farm Orr, I should not be entitled to the same rewards. If you want to make money, you do things that generate money.

Newsflash for everybody:
There are NO PROFITS available on the Trading Post, just SAVINGS!
Why is that a fact?
Not because JS said so.
Not because Evon said so.
Not because I said so.
Not because Citizine Kane said so.
But because Citizen Norn said so.
And Quaggan quite agrees.

Foo!

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If I want to spend 10 hours in Keg Brawl rather than farm Orr, I should not be entitled to the same rewards. If you want to make money, you do things that generate money.

Why should you not? It’s an activity they put in there, not emergent gameplay. It already is being rewarded (via achievments) so there’s really no reasons it couldn’t be reward as much as anything else you can do that the devs put there.

(Though I sincerely doubt the devs expected someone to spend all their ingame time by Keg Brawls. Now dungeoneering/farming open world/sPvP/WvW, I’m fairly sure they did expect.)

The rewards are inline with the types of people that do them, their complexity, etc … it’s not a simple matter to determine rewards. It’s a very presumptuous thing to think that rewards as they are don’t have ‘reasons’ for being what they are.

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

I said potential, not actual. One would assume that actual would be based on demand, and skill etc. But you have answered enough.

It appears we disagree fundamentally. While i dont think every player should earn the same thing, i think that one should aim for similar earning potentials in a best case scenario when done well. The logical reason i can see to award players differently is when they specifically want to incentivize certain behaviours that better that benefit the game.

but since we disagree on that point, we dont have much common ground to come to an understanding.

If you think systems should have the same “potential” rewards regardless as to the fact that their mechanics are different then yes, it is clear that we don’t share common ground as that idea makes zero sense to me.

The “logical” reason for differences in potential rewards cross system is due to the inherent difference between the systems structures. The differences in potential rewards within the systems then boils down to player driven factors.

Take the example below, (note it is a hypothetical example and not an comprehensive outline of the differences between pve and the market model):

SYSTEM A –
1. Zero risk.
2. Zero capital needed.
3. Non competitive/non zero sum.
4. Grants secondary rewards.
5. Can earn gold from it.

SYSTEM B -
1. High risk.
2. Large capital needed.
3. Competitive/zero sum.
4. Grants no secondary rewards.
5. Can earn gold from it.

Now you suggest that system A should give the same “potential” return in terms of gold gain (point 5.) as B, really?

the only variables im trying to deal with at this time in the equation is playstyle differences.
you can adjust the equation to other such variables after.

2)initial capital is not a good factor at all unless there is risk. thats just a requirement that people start at a certain point. It has its place due to creating progression and gating people to similar levels of play, but its not really relevant to the core issue of what people should be able to earn.

3)As far as zero sum, i already stated that we shall assume for the sake of example that they are both resource reallocating activities.

4 and 5) is talking about the type and combination of rewards, but in my example i strip those by saying similar earning potential, IE its suggested that we are talking about the same gain.

So the major factor not covered in my example is risk. but this is a value which should occur after you figure out if people should even have similar earning potentials.

Basically the stuff you say are things that might adjust the equation, but getting to the heart of the matter you first have to decide if at its basis you believe in the idea, then you would adjust the gains in relation to relevant factors.

Essentially assume all these values are the same for now. Now, should every playstyle with have the same earning potential?

phys.7689:

Essentially assume all these values are the same for now. Now, should every playstyle with have the same earning potential?

If all playstyles are the same, that means there’s only one playstyle. Meaning same difficulty. Same mechanics. Same rewards.

Playstyles are different for a reason. You cannot assume that defending a keep in WvW is the same as a Tequatl run. You cannot assume that SPvP is the same as doing CoF. And you sure as heck cannot assume that doing SAB Tribulation Mode is the same as mapping a zone.

Wanze.8410:

….
So why do i disagree with that? Because it would push you towards experiencing less of the game content, or at least try it out.
If it wasnt for my legendary quest, i would have never experienced many aspects of the game, like wvw and the trading post and might have uninstalled the game long ago.
While playing the tp, i realized that my experience of other game features and their rewards made me more efficient at playing the tp. That causes me to go back and test out other game modes, when their rewards get changed. Since last patch i have done more pvp than before since launch. I think as Developer, Anet should aim at engaging every player with every game mode at least once and again in while to keep them logged in and in my case, they did that rather well by making me craft a legendary and introducing me to the trading post, which is my core gameplay and makes me revisit all content on a regular basis. If i could have earned a legendary by just doing map completions, i might have done that, so i dont think that a totally balanced reward system will be beneficial to the game.

Part of the reason you ended up at TP, is because you are a man of effeciency, and the TP has the best reward structure design.

You even mention that improving the reward structure has made sPVP more attractive to you.

i think the main reason people have beef with TP, is because its currently the dominant method of obtaining most other rewards. I dont think people would care about a TP tax very much, if they could make decent progress towards their goals without having to play that game mode.

As far as exposing people to everything, I kind of get what you are saying, but when you look at the legendary the end result becomes about 90% most effecient to use the TP for most players (for you its different because your earning potential makes the mastery more time consuming) but still, if you decided to make a legendary again, it would probably take you about 80-100 hours. while it takes the average player a great deal longer to achieve the same goal (talking about actual focused playtime here)
and thats the issue, effort, skill, risk, etc scale way better via TP than other activities.

So my solution isnt nerf the TP, its give other playstyles methods that can better scale with effort skill risk dedication etc. If that requires making more rewards be re allocation, thats fine, as long as the methods exist.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Essentially assume all these values are the same for now. Now, should every playstyle with have the same earning potential?

If all playstyles are the same, that means there’s only one playstyle. Meaning same difficulty. Same mechanics. Same rewards.

Playstyles are different for a reason. You cannot assume that defending a keep in WvW is the same as a Tequatl run. You cannot assume that SPvP is the same as doing CoF. And you sure as heck cannot assume that doing SAB Tribulation Mode is the same as mapping a zone.

no it really doesnt.
playstyle is how you choose to play the game, how effecient they are at getting relevant rewards is what should be the same.

nothing will ever make playing basketball be the same playstyle as being a programmer, regardless of how well each is rewarded.

SAB is has, in general pretty good rewards, the best way to get sab themed rewards is by playing SAB, the better you get at it, and the more you know SAB the more effecient you become at getting sab rewards. That is very good.

This is not the case for a great many other things. The most effecient way to gather most materials is to learn to play the TP. because a great many materials earning per time period (with respect to actually getting those materials) is pretty ineffecient.

Far as map completion which should be about exploration/knowledge/traversing, they dont really have many rewards that work well with this playstyle. They basically throw you generic rewards in small quantities.

to be clear, i am not saying they should give the same exact rewards, im saying they should be similarly rewarding. this is the top of the equation, you can break down what rewards and risks, skill later, those are parts of the equation but first before you can balance an equation you need to have an equation

should A = B

now A may be a combination of skill/knowledge/dedication/adaptability/effort/risk etc, but assuming all these are the same, should the activities have the same potential to make players feel rewarded?

phys.7689:

but on the personal level its irrelevant. for each player it comes down to value earned per playtime. The truth is penguin, a working super economy is completely optional in games. Many successful games have no economy, or extremely limited economy.

The problem is the value earned per playtime is very low for many players of a certain playstyle. and comparably high and with a non linear growth method competing with it for the same goods and services.

The devs do not have the luxury of designing a game for each player. They consider all players in aggregate statistics, they don’t count the posts on the forums or the users standing around chatting among themselves how unrewarded they feel.

Every hour, thousands upon thousands of crafting materials are distributed through the TP from one player to another. Gear that drops is also passed around at a similar rate. Some of it gets stored for later use, some goes back to the TP so that it can be resold for a profit, and some gets consumed.

It’s very easy for JS and other devs to track how many items are farmed, how many are sold through the TP, how much money users have, and all the other things that we talk about without having the slightest idea what the numbers really are. When JS says that the markets are active and rich players don’t control the marketplace, it’s because he’s seen the numbers and knows from the data that thousands upon thousands of users make use of the TP and the great mass of players controls the market, they are not controlled by the market.

It would be nice if every user felt that the game was optimized just for him, but the fact is that a lot of the things we want are mutually exclusive. If someone wants a Legendary weapon because it’s rare and makes him feel special, making Legendaries easier to get will make him feel disappointed because it’s no longer rare and special. So how do you design a game that rewards players with rare and special items but also gives these rare and special rewards to the majority of players?

What you are asking for just cannot be done, and when someone tries to explain it to you, you just claim that we are trying to protect our own interests and don’t care about the game. The devs don’t have that option, they have to care about the game, not about what the individual player wants.

Inevitably, some players are going to be pleased by the game, and some are going to be disappointed by it. There just is no way that it can be otherwise.

Borghal.1635:

Why should you not? It’s an activity they put in there, not emergent gameplay. It already is being rewarded (via achievments) so there’s really no reasons it couldn’t be reward as much as anything else you can do that the devs put there.

(Though I sincerely doubt the devs expected someone to spend all their ingame time by Keg Brawls. Now dungeoneering/farming open world/sPvP/WvW, I’m fairly sure they did expect.)

Sounds good to me. My wife and I are going to spend the next six hours in Divinity’s Reach, standing near one of the big statues RPing. Give us each 6g/hour for this, plus karma and XP.

tolunart.2095:

Note that in the hypothetical situation, despite eventually selling the item for 50% than the farmer/adventurer did, the flipper made about 33% as much as the farmer/adventurer did from the transaction. And most flips are less profit than that per item, he makes money on the volume and velocity of trading while the farmer/adventurer makes money on the amount of time and effort he spends on the game.

Yep. And this realisation is actually why I’m actually not really fussed about flipping or speculating anymore. (I was a bit bothered about it in the early days, I’ll readily admit.) When you take into account time spent on research, putting in orders, watching prices and the ever-present risk of game updates ruining your investment in an instant (see Fires of Balthazar backpiece), the amount of gold made per hour by TP players actually isn’t much different from, say, studious dungeon runners or farmers (although I think top-end farmers like Vol got a serious nerf on Apr 15, so this may no longer hold true).

It’s just that the majority of people who farm or run dungeons aren’t hardcore about it; they don’t farm all dungeon paths once a day, or hop between servers to take advantage of guaranteed node farms or high volume events. They compare their income with what the top percentile of TP barons make and feel jealous, but in reality most TP players probably make close to what they themselves make per hour.

phys.7689:

should A = B

now A may be a combination of skill/knowledge/dedication/adaptability/effort/risk etc, but assuming all these are the same, should the activities have the same potential to make players feel rewarded?

Ok, I’ll bite. Yes, players should “feel” rewarded for what they do in game. If I do SAB, or any other hard jumping puzzle, my reward isn’t just an end chest. It’s the fact that I completed challenging content. Same as when I first did the Great Wurm. I didn’t get any good loot at the end, but I enjoyed every minute of it with my guildies in TTS. I also feel rewarded when I’m defending my Keep in EBG, so that my server is able to get that extra point when the timer resets.

But what I know you’re getting at is that you want money. You want loot for doing things your way. That’s fine. As we’ve discussed in this thread, the feeling of Entitlement isn’t a bad thing. We all want more stuff for less effort. Going on with this train of though, it seems you want the following: Time = Loot. So basically, for every X hours you spend in game, you want Y amount of Gold or equivalent. What happens here is that this doesn’t only affect you. It affects all players in game. So as more Gold is created, the less it’s worth overall.

Regarding the usage of the TP, you need to try and understand that rewards from events are not the same as profits from the TP. One creates Gold out of thin air. The other trades existing Gold among players, while deleting 15% of it. You’re so set on thinking that event loot should be on par with the TP. I’ll try to give you an example of just how unrealistic your idea is. I’ll use some made up items.

Metal Slime are a rare drop that sells on the TP for 1 Gold each, and has Buy Orders for 40 Silver each. Enough people are buying at full price, and also filling my Buy Orders so that I’m making a profit of 45 Silver per. The velocity of the item has me making ~300 Gold per hour. With your idea, you want to be able to make 300 Gold per hour doing other stuff. Ok. So let’s say you can make 50 Gold per Dungeon speed clear, with no DR. If you manage to clear the dungeon in 10 minutes, you’re making the same amount as me.

Take this situation above, and imagine thousands of players doing the same thing all day long. Now, you have new wealth being generated a 300 × 10,000 per hour rate. All of a sudden, the economy breaks, and Gold is next to worthless. But Metal Slimes are still the hot commodity! Due to Supply and Demand, coupled with a weak currency, Metal Slimes now sell for 100 Gold per, with Buy Orders up to 70 Gold. I’m still able to make 15 Gold profit on each flip. With the same velocity, I’m now making ~9,900 Gold per hour. Your dungeon speed clears are still only making 300 Gold per hour.

Edit – I forgot to point out that this snowball effect keeps getting bigger. The more money you introduce into the game, the more expensive everything else becomes. But even if the currency is weakened, the earning potential of the TP remains, as markets adapt to the new currency values. The rich will stay rich, and the poor will feel like they’re making money, but in the end, they’re still poor.

Wanze.8410:

Newsflash for everybody:
There are NO PROFITS available on the Trading Post, just SAVINGS!
Why is that a fact?
Not because JS said so.
Not because Evon said so.
Not because I said so.
Not because Citizine Kane said so.
But because Citizen Norn said so.
And Quaggan quite agrees.

Foo!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBOLW-jmCjE

By Ogden’s Hammer, what savings!

Borghal.1635:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If I want to spend 10 hours in Keg Brawl rather than farm Orr, I should not be entitled to the same rewards. If you want to make money, you do things that generate money.

Why should you not?

It’s been explained why.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

should A = B

now A may be a combination of skill/knowledge/dedication/adaptability/effort/risk etc, but assuming all these are the same, should the activities have the same potential to make players feel rewarded?

Ok, I’ll bite. Yes, players should “feel” rewarded for what they do in game. If I do SAB, or any other hard jumping puzzle, my reward isn’t just an end chest. It’s the fact that I completed challenging content. Same as when I first did the Great Wurm. I didn’t get any good loot at the end, but I enjoyed every minute of it with my guildies in TTS. I also feel rewarded when I’m defending my Keep in EBG, so that my server is able to get that extra point when the timer resets.

But what I know you’re getting at is that you want money. You want loot for doing things your way. That’s fine. As we’ve discussed in this thread, the feeling of Entitlement isn’t a bad thing. We all want more stuff for less effort. Going on with this train of though, it seems you want the following: Time = Loot. So basically, for every X hours you spend in game, you want Y amount of Gold or equivalent. What happens here is that this doesn’t only affect you. It affects all players in game. So as more Gold is created, the less it’s worth overall.

Regarding the usage of the TP, you need to try and understand that rewards from events are not the same as profits from the TP. One creates Gold out of thin air. The other trades existing Gold among players, while deleting 15% of it. You’re so set on thinking that event loot should be on par with the TP. I’ll try to give you an example of just how unrealistic your idea is. I’ll use some made up items.

Metal Slime are a rare drop that sells on the TP for 1 Gold each, and has Buy Orders for 40 Silver each. Enough people are buying at full price, and also filling my Buy Orders so that I’m making a profit of 45 Silver per. The velocity of the item has me making ~300 Gold per hour. With your idea, you want to be able to make 300 Gold per hour doing other stuff. Ok. So let’s say you can make 50 Gold per Dungeon speed clear, with no DR. If you manage to clear the dungeon in 10 minutes, you’re making the same amount as me.

Take this situation above, and imagine thousands of players doing the same thing all day long. Now, you have new wealth being generated a 300 × 10,000 per hour rate. All of a sudden, the economy breaks, and Gold is next to worthless. But Metal Slimes are still the hot commodity! Due to Supply and Demand, coupled with a weak currency, Metal Slimes now sell for 100 Gold per, with Buy Orders up to 70 Gold. I’m still able to make 15 Gold profit on each flip. With the same velocity, I’m now making ~9,900 Gold per hour. Your dungeon speed clears are still only making 300 Gold per hour.

Edit – I forgot to point out that this snowball effect keeps getting bigger. The more money you introduce into the game, the more expensive everything else becomes. But even if the currency is weakened, the earning potential of the TP remains, as markets adapt to the new currency values. The rich will stay rich, and the poor will feel like they’re making money, but in the end, they’re still poor.

you are mistaken i dont want gold, i dont even particularly like earning gold. I want to be able to progress towards endgame goals at a decent pace playing the non tp game. making money isnt my goal.

I understand your resource creation fears, but activities do not need to create resources. they can make resource allocation tracks for multiple types of play, and they can make account bound methods of progress.

I dont really want gold, id prefer if i could do interesting things on the path to acheiving goals

Zaxares.5419:

It’s just that the majority of people who farm or run dungeons aren’t hardcore about it; they don’t farm all dungeon paths once a day, or hop between servers to take advantage of guaranteed node farms or high volume events. They compare their income with what the top percentile of TP barons make and feel jealous, but in reality most TP players probably make close to what they themselves make per hour.

Exactly. Movie stars like George Clooney make millions of dollars per movie, the guy playing the waiter when GC’s character has dinner with his girlfriend makes a little more than minimum wage. It’s like assuming every actor gets GC’s paycheck and complaining about how unfair it is that actors get paid so much when I work at McD’s and get a little more than minimum wage.

The most successful people at the highest levels will always have more than the average person. TP flippers who take time to research the market make more than the guy who bought 10 stacks of copper ore at 25c and sold them for 40c. Someone who runs dungeons until he can do them blindfolded will make more per hour than the guy who never saw the inside of COF until today.

Even if Anet wants to do something about this, ultimately they can’t. They can set DR to keep people from farming the same area all day, but you can find the game on sale or pay someone who is quitting $10 for his password and switch to a different account to keep farming. Likewise, anything that affected an account making “too much money” can be worked around by using multiple accounts.

At the end of the day, here just like on page 1 of this thread, you’re asking Anet to step in and solve a problem that doesn’t exist, using methods that cannot work, just to make you feel better about being jealous of someone who is better at some aspect of the game than you are.

phys.7689:

Essentially assume all these values are the same for now. Now, should every playstyle with have the same earning potential?

You are asking not only a pointless hypothetical question, but one I have already answered. Unless two systems are exactly the same in every single aspect, then there is no reason why they should be forced to have the same potential gold gain rewards.

You also dodged my question. Now do you think two utterly different systems (like A and B in my example) should have the same potential gold gain reward (point 5.)?

I want to be able to progress towards endgame goals at a decent pace playing the non tp game. making money isnt my goal.

Define “decent pace”, your idea of “decent” or “reasonable” might be completely and utterly different to mine, as mine might be utterly different to the next guys. I can get luxury endgame items via pve at a “decent pace” as far as I am concerned.

Again I would add in a token/reward/endgame skin system for high skilled players (not the average joe, top level players), like the legendary rewards for major pvp tournaments. If you win a major tourny, or can solo dungeons, or top a GvG WvW table etc, then there you go, choose item x, you can keep it or sell it, up to you. Or choose item y, only available to people who have achieved certain things and account bound, so you know everyone who has it has done the thing needed to get it.

phys.7689:

So to be clear, you believe and understand that tp merchanting is and should be the primary method of obtainining most (not all) endgame items?

100% of endgame items (I’m pretty sure you mean precursors, why be obtuse about it) are obtained in one of two ways – they are looted as drops, or they are forged in the mystic forge. Every single one originates in the hands of someone who is, at least at that moment, not a merchant.

There’s no way around it. For every merchant that has purchased and used a precursor to make a legendary, there’s a player on the other end that either found or forged a precursor and decided they’d rather have a giant pile of gold than the weapon. It isn’t like precursors are coming out of nowhere from a NPC merchant; they all come from other players. Think about the circular flows of cash in the economy; it’s a lot more complicated, but much more representative, than just calling the merchants takers and being done with it.

tolunart.2095:

Borghal.1635:

Why should you not? It’s an activity they put in there, not emergent gameplay. It already is being rewarded (via achievments) so there’s really no reasons it couldn’t be reward as much as anything else you can do that the devs put there.

(Though I sincerely doubt the devs expected someone to spend all their ingame time by Keg Brawls. Now dungeoneering/farming open world/sPvP/WvW, I’m fairly sure they did expect.)

Sounds good to me. My wife and I are going to spend the next six hours in Divinity’s Reach, standing near one of the big statues RPing. Give us each 6g/hour for this, plus karma and XP.

RP is a prime example of emergent gameplay, so you kinda missed the point on that one.

On a side note, oh how I’d love some serious RP. But this is not the game for it, now less than ever when RP’ers don’t even have their own server anymore.
Oh poor forgotten Ultima Online, the memories will never fade… :-)

Ensign.2189:

100% of endgame items (I’m pretty sure you mean precursors, why be obtuse about it) a

That’s simply not true. Many people don’t even like legendaries and don’t want to pursue them. Endgame content in a broad sense, which we are talking about, would be exotic/ascended gear of your aesthetic choice.

Fenrir.3609:

Borghal.1635:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If I want to spend 10 hours in Keg Brawl rather than farm Orr, I should not be entitled to the same rewards. If you want to make money, you do things that generate money.

Why should you not?

It’s been explained why.

And dismissed as a minor problem.
EDIT: Meh, one sentence replies are ridiculous.
Seriously, if everyone had the potential to gain more or less the same amount of money per time, then the only thing differentiating you from the next guy would be how long you play. That is a good thing
If you desired something of high value, all you would have to do is bunker down and farm more than average. There would be no people barring you from getting to that goal because they have much higher profits per time. It wouldn’t be possible.

In a casual game, inasmuch as this one is, reward gain should me more about time spent playing (also real money) than cleverness at finding profitable activities orthogonal to the main focus of the game.

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

Essentially assume all these values are the same for now. Now, should every playstyle with have the same earning potential?

You are asking not only a pointless hypothetical question, but one I have already answered. Unless two systems are exactly the same in every single aspect, then there is no reason why they should be forced to have the same potential gold gain rewards.

You also dodged my question. Now do you think two utterly different systems (like A and B in my example) should have the same potential gold gain reward (point 5.)?

I want to be able to progress towards endgame goals at a decent pace playing the non tp game. making money isnt my goal.

Define “decent pace”, your idea of “decent” or “reasonable” might be completely and utterly different to mine, as mine might be utterly different to the next guys. I can get luxury endgame items via pve at a “decent pace” as far as I am concerned. Now if other people are unable to maximise their reward gain via pve or have an unrealistic expectation of how quickly they should get endgame items, then that is there problem, not mine or the systems.

Again I would add in a token/reward/endgame skin system for high skilled players (not the average joe, top level players), like the legendary rewards for major pvp tournaments. If you win a major tourny, or can solo dungeons, or top a GvG WvW table etc, then there you go, choose item x, you can keep it or sell it, up to you. Or choose item y, only available to people who have achieved certain things and account bound, so you know everyone who has it has done the thing needed to get it.

hypotheticals exist to solve problems logically, and incrementally.

you have to start from a premise than adjust the equation based on the additional factors.

So if I believe for my design that A = B
only then can i start identify variables and balancing the equation
for example
the balanced equation may be

((riskA * effortA * success conditionA)/(time of taskA) x current progression/maximum progression)=100 earned points

now playstyle B can achieve the same results of 100 earned points with less risk, but greater effort. Or via getting a higher success condition. Etc

This is not the case right now though, no matter how skilled/prepared or how hard you try you will hit a cap on earned points via one method, while the other method is comparably uncapped with effort/risk/progression etc.

for players who are more skilled, less risk averse, harder working or just dedicated and consistent, only one method of play scales well to your abilities. Which means in order to achieve those goals, you either have to decide to take a loss on entertainment (if that method isnt your thing) or do something you dont like. IRL this is the norm, but there is no good reason for it to be so in a game world created to be an adventure. As long as there is this difference, people who dont want to play the TP game, will be annoyed that the game is balanced around them being better at the TP. (not saying tp baron level, but generally coming up with some merchant based plans for success)

People with either feel the rewards for playing suck, because they dont feel like its progressing them to their goals, or feel like they are being forced into a method that gives returns at a faster pace when played well.

Borghal.1635:

And dismissed as a minor problem.

Except it hasn’t.

When someone points out exactly why different systems can and do have different potential gains is specific areas. Countering that with"but they should all give the same gold, the game is not competitive!" is not a very good argument to make. At all.

Ensign.2189:

phys.7689:

So to be clear, you believe and understand that tp merchanting is and should be the primary method of obtainining most (not all) endgame items?

100% of endgame items (I’m pretty sure you mean precursors, why be obtuse about it) are obtained in one of two ways – they are looted as drops, or they are forged in the mystic forge. Every single one originates in the hands of someone who is, at least at that moment, not a merchant.

There’s no way around it. For every merchant that has purchased and used a precursor to make a legendary, there’s a player on the other end that either found or forged a precursor and decided they’d rather have a giant pile of gold than the weapon. It isn’t like precursors are coming out of nowhere from a NPC merchant; they all come from other players. Think about the circular flows of cash in the economy; it’s a lot more complicated, but much more representative, than just calling the merchants takers and being done with it.

its actually anything of value, that people would probably pursue after hitting 80. Ascended materials for items are based around creating demand and item sinks, which is deciding their value based on the Macro Economy. The idea of 300 per day is not an idea that represented actual playtime to achieve, but one that represents turning whatever else you do into money then buying the item.

You will also notice as the gem shop has more and more desirable items, gold on hand decided whether you can attain them. Seasonal items are also designed in a TP/money earning fashion. In halloween 2 it was probably impossible to earn certain skins through regular play, the only logical way was to use gold.

the game is designed so that gold is the most logical way to do most type of activities players who have reached max level might pursue. Which creates problems when certain methods are more profitable, because its as if the game is telling you this is the way to play.
generally games reward playstyles that represent the ideal way to play, and punish playstyles that dont. So by making TP, or anything the most effecient way to obtain your goals, they are making the game at the end, about doing whatever that most effecient thing is.

Or you can choose to ignore those goals and create your own, but that type of thing would be outside the scope of game design.

Fenrir.3609:

Except it hasn’t.

When someone points out exactly why different systems can and do have different potential gains is specific areas. Countering that with"but they should all give the same gold, the game is not competitive!" is not a very good argument to make. At all.

Oh nobody is disagreeing with you that they can and do have different potential gains. No need to argue for that :-) It’s just that some of us believes it is against the philosophy of the game to allow for large differences, and this argument is especially about the fact that one of them seems dominant, one that isn’t even gameplay in the first place. And for reasons that have been stated over and over again. I just summed it up my last post, in fact, but you conveniently dodged that.

The argument is also not that “the game is not competitive” because as it stands, yes it is. But it shouldn’t be unless you want it to. If the game invites you to go do PvE with friends, you -as a new unaware player- don’t expect to fiercely compete with others. That’s the core point and unless you believe that everyone should be forced into competing, there is really nothing to dismiss that with. The argument is less of economics and more of deign philosophy.

I’d really appreciate it, since you’re already taking time to reply, if you replied to everything.

Fenrir.3609:

Borghal.1635:

And dismissed as a minor problem.

Except it hasn’t.

When someone points out exactly why different systems can and do have different potential gains is specific areas. Countering that with"but they should all give the same gold, the game is not competitive!" is not a very good argument to make. At all.

im going to stop you right here, there is nothing inherent to TP merchanting versus say for example boss fighting that means one should give you more than the other.

Dont say things like
Resource generation:
because the amount of reward this boss gives could have been based on how much it took away from other players
Risk: because if the boss can take away gains from other players it involves risk
Intital investment
Because perhaps the boss is in an area where you have to work pretty hard to get up to

The point is the game designs the content, the rewards, the gains and everything else. The designers decide what is guaranteed what is not, what is risky what is not, how hard, etc. Why is the TP the only system that scales well with effort/skill/effort/demand etc, they could have designed many systems to scale that way.

to be clear.
If the reason why certain activities rewards suck is because,
they create resources
why not make ways to get gains that dont create resources
if its because there are no risks
why not make methods of play that require risk
if its because it requires knowledge/ skill
why not make this task scale reward with skill/knowledge
if its because it unbalances the macro economy
why not make it possible to get rewarded in ways that dont unbalance the macro economy

etc.

I like to know how you balance trading post since the profit can go from negative big number to a really large positive big numver.

phys.7689:

im going to stop you right here, there is nothing inherent to TP merchanting versus say for example boss fighting that means one should give you more than the other.

Currently, there quite obviously is as I have pointed out a tiring amount of times now and there has been no evidence given to suggest that needs to change outside of “muh feelings!”.

why not make it possible to get rewarded in ways that dont unbalance the macro economy

etc.

I’ve already said I would give rewards to highly skilled participants in pve/pve and I would certainly love to see high risk, high skill requirement gameplay added.

Still, you would be unable to “balance” gold gain in and of itself because of the fundamental difference in the core mechanics of the two systems (which I can’t believe people don’t grasp in all honesty). But then, that wouldn’t bother you right as you are not after gold gain, as long as you could get the elite items as a reward for doing the elite content.