Guild Wars 2

TheGrimm.5624:

Some of the above hit the point. There is no penalty to re-list a buy but there is on a sell, that seems off. Sellers have to pay a penalty effectively for making a bad call, why shouldn’t people placing buy orders do the same.

1 copper raising is only a problem because of the fees – putting in more fees would make the problem worse, so I don’t know why you are suggesting that.

As for the asymmetry, sellers pay a penalty for trying to get a higher price than the best buy order – that’s the tradeoff, an up front fee and a risk, or an instant sale at a lower price. If you don’t want an up front fee, sell instantly. If you think “no but I want more money” then that will cost you. That’s how markets work.

Chalky.8540:

TheGrimm.5624:

Some of the above hit the point. There is no penalty to re-list a buy but there is on a sell, that seems off. Sellers have to pay a penalty effectively for making a bad call, why shouldn’t people placing buy orders do the same.

1 copper raising is only a problem because of the fees – putting in more fees would make the problem worse, so I don’t know why you are suggesting that.

As for the asymmetry, sellers pay a penalty for trying to get a higher price than the best buy order – that’s the tradeoff, an up front fee and a risk, or an instant sale at a lower price. If you don’t want an up front fee, sell instantly. If you think “no but I want more money” then that will cost you. That’s how markets work.

Maybe I missed something in the original post, but I thought the issue was one upping on buys. There is not penalty on a buyer putting in a buy, seeing someone put a higher bid in, cancelling their bid and upping it again by 1 copper, versus putting in a buy that is something reasonably higher. If buyers were hit with the listing fee on buy orders versus sellers than I think there would be less of this one copper upping on buy orders since there would be a price to pay every time you stop and re-list. Granted the more leap frogging buyers do the more the seller will make, but that’s not the same thing as the TP fines for a seller to do the same action.

Side note, not talking about seller here, instant cash or not. Seller pays the fees on buy instant or if they list it, they are just locked into the price they put out there unless they want to re-pay a new listing fee. Either way, good hunting.

I don’t get what the problem is. So what if someone outbid by 1 copper, just wait it out or cancel and rebid. If you want your stuff now and don’t want anyone to out bid you just buy it instantly and save your self the trouble of a few extra clicks and a dose of patience. If you want something at a cheaper you have to accept the risk that someone will bid higher, even if it is 1 copper.

Julie Yann.5379:

I don’t get what the problem is. So what if someone outbid by 1 copper, just wait it out or cancel and rebid. If you want your stuff now and don’t want anyone to out bid you just buy it instantly and save your self the trouble of a few extra clicks and a dose of patience. If you want something at a cheaper you have to accept the risk that someone will bid higher, even if it is 1 copper.

Read the ANet posts in this topic. The issue is the system is easily bot’d and ANet (J.Smith) is open to suggestions.

We’ll chalk you up for “couldn’t think of any suggestions”.

juno.1840:

My suggestion is one I made over a year ago — add a small listing fee to buy orders. This punishes abusive behavior while minimally impacting desired behaviors.

The list fee does not need to be a percentage… although the price of the item could dictate a “bracket” from which the fee is taken. Or the fee could be capped percentage to keep it reasonable for higher priced goods.

The list fee could be dynamic based upon how many times you’ve place a buy order on the same item in a short time frame — again something that would not impact desired behavior but punish abusive behavior.

You want a deterrent that only punishes abusive behaviors while leaving the market generally unaffected for normal players.

This is only limited by the creativity of the designers and the limitations of the software development process.

Other suggestions that came to mind:

• New buy orders cannot be cancelled for TBD minutes (anti-spam)
• New buy orders on the same item cannot be created until TBD minutes have elapsed (although we shouldn’t punish players who are trying to buy more than 250 of something)
• Fee to cancel a buy order (no fees to place a buy order)

This has been discussed a bit before, but is there any strong reason not to just make re-listing of items free? People who are undercut by 1c can then just undercut right back. Prices should quickly settle or rise to an equilibrium point.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

This has been discussed a bit before, but is there any strong reason not to just make re-listing of items free? People who are undercut by 1c can then just undercut right back. Prices should quickly settle or rise to an equilibrium point.

To discourage more threads like this being made?

William Bradley Knight.2609:

This has been discussed a bit before, but is there any strong reason not to just make re-listing of items free? People who are undercut by 1c can then just undercut right back. Prices should quickly settle or rise to an equilibrium point.

If you take away the listing fee, people just use the TP as free storage.

juno.1840:

Julie Yann.5379:

I don’t get what the problem is. So what if someone outbid by 1 copper, just wait it out or cancel and rebid. If you want your stuff now and don’t want anyone to out bid you just buy it instantly and save your self the trouble of a few extra clicks and a dose of patience. If you want something at a cheaper you have to accept the risk that someone will bid higher, even if it is 1 copper.

Read the ANet posts in this topic. The issue is the system is easily bot’d and ANet (J.Smith) is open to suggestions.

We’ll chalk you up for “couldn’t think of any suggestions”.

Then the issue is not the cooper 1 up but the cheaters exploiting the game with 3rd party software. Maybe they should work on better bot detection but if that is not feasible then how about just setting a limit to how many times you can replace a buy order for a certain item within a time frame. Example, you can 1 up an order of ectos 3 times in 60 mins.

I mass buy some items from the TP. I constantly have buy orders in for them to keep the items flowing. Sometimes I’m outbidded, sometimes I’m the highest buyer. Depending on how many items are in front of me, I will or will not add a new listing by outbidding by 1 copper. Like someone pointed out, such is the market. If you are willing to pay more, then you should have the item. It’s as simple as that.
What you’re suggesting as a solution is – I’m sorry – very short-sighted and stupid. You have clearly not thought about the very negative consequences that your solution would have on the economy and on the usability of the trading post.

juno.1840:

• New buy orders cannot be cancelled for TBD minutes (anti-spam)
• Fee to cancel a buy order (no fees to place a buy order)

Wow. I cannot believe that you don’t see the wide gaping flaw in those ideas.

My last post on an alternate suggestion:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/suggestion-Allow-people-to-sell-to/first#post4491640

This would work if we could have it have a cash/item on delivery and stamps that are mandatory for trading by mail.

This way people can trade for what they want and how much and still have a gold sink in the form of stamps.

I know a few people that would rather trade by mail and not the TP, yet need a way to make it secure and non-inflationary which is, too much gold in economy, there I used the term right!

Stamps would be the way to go.

As I know A Net is not going to allow us to sell to any buy order on there.

TheGrimm.5624:

Chalky.8540:

TheGrimm.5624:

Some of the above hit the point. There is no penalty to re-list a buy but there is on a sell, that seems off. Sellers have to pay a penalty effectively for making a bad call, why shouldn’t people placing buy orders do the same.

1 copper raising is only a problem because of the fees – putting in more fees would make the problem worse, so I don’t know why you are suggesting that.

As for the asymmetry, sellers pay a penalty for trying to get a higher price than the best buy order – that’s the tradeoff, an up front fee and a risk, or an instant sale at a lower price. If you don’t want an up front fee, sell instantly. If you think “no but I want more money” then that will cost you. That’s how markets work.

Maybe I missed something in the original post, but I thought the issue was one upping on buys. There is not penalty on a buyer putting in a buy, seeing someone put a higher bid in, cancelling their bid and upping it again by 1 copper, versus putting in a buy that is something reasonably higher. If buyers were hit with the listing fee on buy orders versus sellers than I think there would be less of this one copper upping on buy orders since there would be a price to pay every time you stop and re-list. Granted the more leap frogging buyers do the more the seller will make, but that’s not the same thing as the TP fines for a seller to do the same action.

Side note, not talking about seller here, instant cash or not. Seller pays the fees on buy instant or if they list it, they are just locked into the price they put out there unless they want to re-pay a new listing fee. Either way, good hunting.

There’s no issue with 1 copper raising on buy orders because you can just re-raise for free. If you’re too lazy to re-raise then the person doing more work than you has an advantage, which is entirely fair.

OP can say “I don’t want to work hard, I just want to sit back and have rewards come to me – this doesn’t seem to work, plz fix!” – it doesn’t make it a reasonable position to take.

The issue with sell order undercutting is understandably frustrating since it costs the seller money to change their price to compete – they’re not just being lazy. Choosing to sell via a sell listing rather than instantly is, however, a concious choice to get more money at the cost of time. Part of that time cost is the result of people being able to undercut you.

Bots are the only real issue when it comes to buy order undercutting. Obviously, if you’re playing fair and someone else is cheating in order to get an advantage, that’s not fair at all. If they’re doing it so much it’s impossible for you to compete then it’s a massive problem.

I do believe that Anet are taking steps to resolve issues with TP bots though, so seems to deal with the only major issue raised by the thread. Everything else is people wanting to have rules in place to ensure they get more rewards for less effort by removing competition. This is obviously flawed, since their own bids are also someone else’s competition, and so fourth. They think they’ll end up making money more easily, but instead they’ll end up in a queue 1000 identical bids at an extremely low price.

People only care about what happens after they make their bid – they don’t stop to think that the existence of 1c undercutting are the reason the price is so good in the first place.

I hope they can change the TP system. Allow buy offers to put a min and max price.

For example the minimum buy offer for a certain item is 10 silver. I can put a buy offer of 11 silver min and 15 silver max. So I dont’ need to check the trading post every single minutes to 1 copper up people. If other people over bid me, it’ll automatically up my bid offer.

I think that’s the system most online trade system works. If you want to buy an item, you put a max bid, and the trader will automatically up the bidding price until you reach the maximum bids.

laokoko.7403:

I hope they can change the TP system. Allow buy offers to put a min and max price.

For example the minimum buy offer for a certain item is 10 silver. I can put a buy offer of 11 silver min and 15 silver max. So I dont’ need to check the trading post every single minutes to 1 copper up people. If other people over bid me, it’ll automatically up my bid offer.

I think that’s the system most online trade system works. If you want to buy an item, you put a max bid, and the trader will automatically up the bidding price until you reach the maximum bids.

Thats basically botting for everybody. It might work for auction houses but not on the tp because the tp is not an auction house. In an auction house, you bid for a certain item, that was put up for auction before. On the TP, if you place a bid, you place a bid for an item that hasnt been put up for sale yet.

Wanze.8410:

laokoko.7403:

I hope they can change the TP system. Allow buy offers to put a min and max price.

For example the minimum buy offer for a certain item is 10 silver. I can put a buy offer of 11 silver min and 15 silver max. So I dont’ need to check the trading post every single minutes to 1 copper up people. If other people over bid me, it’ll automatically up my bid offer.

I think that’s the system most online trade system works. If you want to buy an item, you put a max bid, and the trader will automatically up the bidding price until you reach the maximum bids.

Thats basically botting for everybody. It might work for auction houses but not on the tp because the tp is not an auction house. In an auction house, you bid for a certain item, that was put up for auction before. On the TP, if you place a bid, you place a bid for an item that hasnt been put up for sale yet.

I fail to see why it is a problem. A system where people check the trading post every minutes to 1 copper up people is a better system?

maybe you think it is really cool to check trading post every minutes just to 1 copper up people, I certainly don’t.

laokoko.7403:

I hope they can change the TP system. Allow buy offers to put a min and max price.

For example the minimum buy offer for a certain item is 10 silver. I can put a buy offer of 11 silver min and 15 silver max. So I dont’ need to check the trading post every single minutes to 1 copper up people. If other people over bid me, it’ll automatically up my bid offer.

I think that’s the system most online trade system works. If you want to buy an item, you put a max bid, and the trader will automatically up the bidding price until you reach the maximum bids.

That’s how eBay works, but the TP isn’t an auction house; it’s a clearing house: you put in your offer and it fulfills or it doesn’t.

If you don’t want to check the TP often, put in a higher bid to start with. It’s very rare when buying that adding 5-15% to the highest buy offer (or subtracting the same from the lowest sale price) won’t ensure a speedy transaction. It’s only when I am greedy to eek out that extra 5-15% that I find a high risk of getting over/undercut.

tl;dr there’s hardly any 1-copper issue for people who aim for a favorable middle ground.

Kasima.8143:

juno.1840:

• New buy orders cannot be cancelled for TBD minutes (anti-spam)
• Fee to cancel a buy order (no fees to place a buy order)

Wow. I cannot believe that you don’t see the wide gaping flaw in those ideas.

Sorry I don’t, otherwise I would have considered such flaws when posting the ideas. Maybe you can enlighten me with your vast knowledge.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

laokoko.7403:

I hope they can change the TP system. Allow buy offers to put a min and max price.

For example the minimum buy offer for a certain item is 10 silver. I can put a buy offer of 11 silver min and 15 silver max. So I dont’ need to check the trading post every single minutes to 1 copper up people. If other people over bid me, it’ll automatically up my bid offer.

I think that’s the system most online trade system works. If you want to buy an item, you put a max bid, and the trader will automatically up the bidding price until you reach the maximum bids.

That’s how eBay works, but the TP isn’t an auction house; it’s a clearing house: you put in your offer and it fulfills or it doesn’t.

tl;dr there’s hardly any 1-copper issue for people who aim for a favorable middle ground.

Well we are just running in circle. You dont’ like the system, I like the system.

Maybe you should tell me what’s wrong with my system instead telling me TP isn’t an auction house. What problem will it cause instead.

No one says the GW2 trading system have to follow any specific system right?

juno.1840:

juno.1840:

My suggestion is one I made over a year ago — add a small listing fee to buy orders. This punishes abusive behavior while minimally impacting desired behaviors.

The list fee does not need to be a percentage… although the price of the item could dictate a “bracket” from which the fee is taken. Or the fee could be capped percentage to keep it reasonable for higher priced goods.

The list fee could be dynamic based upon how many times you’ve place a buy order on the same item in a short time frame — again something that would not impact desired behavior but punish abusive behavior.

You want a deterrent that only punishes abusive behaviors while leaving the market generally unaffected for normal players.

This is only limited by the creativity of the designers and the limitations of the software development process.

Other suggestions that came to mind:

• New buy orders cannot be cancelled for TBD minutes (anti-spam)
• New buy orders on the same item cannot be created until TBD minutes have elapsed (although we shouldn’t punish players who are trying to buy more than 250 of something)
• Fee to cancel a buy order (no fees to place a buy order)

Sorry, if I’m crafting/forging, I buy in bulk in multiple chunks of 250. If I’m salvaging for ectos via items, I buy a little at a time but I would restock my order when I put up the ones I got. Sometimes that’s rather quick between bids.

laokoko.7403:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

laokoko.7403:

I hope they can change the TP system. Allow buy offers to put a min and max price.

For example the minimum buy offer for a certain item is 10 silver. I can put a buy offer of 11 silver min and 15 silver max. So I dont’ need to check the trading post every single minutes to 1 copper up people. If other people over bid me, it’ll automatically up my bid offer.

I think that’s the system most online trade system works. If you want to buy an item, you put a max bid, and the trader will automatically up the bidding price until you reach the maximum bids.

That’s how eBay works, but the TP isn’t an auction house; it’s a clearing house: you put in your offer and it fulfills or it doesn’t.

tl;dr there’s hardly any 1-copper issue for people who aim for a favorable middle ground.

Well we are just running in circle. You dont’ like the system, I like the system.

Maybe you should tell me what’s wrong with my system instead telling me TP isn’t an auction house. What problem will it cause instead.

No one says the GW2 trading system have to follow any specific system right?

The problem with your system is that it will change nothing at the fact that you will get outbid fast as soon as someone has an autobid 1 copper higher than you active.

If ITem A has a highest bid of 1g and you put in an automated bid of 1g1c to 1g20s and someone puts in an automated bid of 1g2c to 1g25s, you will still lose out. If you are willing to put in an automated bid up to 1g20s, you might as well put in that bid under the current system and decrease the chance of you getting outbid.

Wanze.8410:

laokoko.7403:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

laokoko.7403:

I hope they can change the TP system. Allow buy offers to put a min and max price.

For example the minimum buy offer for a certain item is 10 silver. I can put a buy offer of 11 silver min and 15 silver max. So I dont’ need to check the trading post every single minutes to 1 copper up people. If other people over bid me, it’ll automatically up my bid offer.

I think that’s the system most online trade system works. If you want to buy an item, you put a max bid, and the trader will automatically up the bidding price until you reach the maximum bids.

That’s how eBay works, but the TP isn’t an auction house; it’s a clearing house: you put in your offer and it fulfills or it doesn’t.

tl;dr there’s hardly any 1-copper issue for people who aim for a favorable middle ground.

Well we are just running in circle. You dont’ like the system, I like the system.

Maybe you should tell me what’s wrong with my system instead telling me TP isn’t an auction house. What problem will it cause instead.

No one says the GW2 trading system have to follow any specific system right?

The problem with your system is that it will change nothing at the fact that you will get outbid fast as soon as someone has an autobid 1 copper higher than you active.

If ITem A has a highest bid of 1g and you put in an automated bid of 1g1c to 1g20s and someone puts in an automated bid of 1g2c to 1g25s, you will still lose out. If you are willing to put in an automated bid up to 1g20s, you might as well put in that bid under the current system and decrease the chance of you getting outbid.

I dont’ understand how that is a problem. The maximum I’m willing to pay is 1g20s anyway. If someone want to outbid me to 1g25 silver is their choice.

The only problem I see is the buy order price and sell order price will be closer. So flipper will have less opportunities, so that interfere with their current game play.

laokoko.7403:

Wanze.8410:

laokoko.7403:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

laokoko.7403:

I hope they can change the TP system. Allow buy offers to put a min and max price.

For example the minimum buy offer for a certain item is 10 silver. I can put a buy offer of 11 silver min and 15 silver max. So I dont’ need to check the trading post every single minutes to 1 copper up people. If other people over bid me, it’ll automatically up my bid offer.

I think that’s the system most online trade system works. If you want to buy an item, you put a max bid, and the trader will automatically up the bidding price until you reach the maximum bids.

That’s how eBay works, but the TP isn’t an auction house; it’s a clearing house: you put in your offer and it fulfills or it doesn’t.

tl;dr there’s hardly any 1-copper issue for people who aim for a favorable middle ground.

Well we are just running in circle. You dont’ like the system, I like the system.

Maybe you should tell me what’s wrong with my system instead telling me TP isn’t an auction house. What problem will it cause instead.

No one says the GW2 trading system have to follow any specific system right?

The problem with your system is that it will change nothing at the fact that you will get outbid fast as soon as someone has an autobid 1 copper higher than you active.

If ITem A has a highest bid of 1g and you put in an automated bid of 1g1c to 1g20s and someone puts in an automated bid of 1g2c to 1g25s, you will still lose out. If you are willing to put in an automated bid up to 1g20s, you might as well put in that bid under the current system and decrease the chance of you getting outbid.

I dont’ understand how that is a problem. The maximum I’m willing to pay is 1g20s anyway. If someone want to outbid me to 1g25 silver is their choice.

The only problem I see is the buy order price and sell order price will be closer. So flipper will have less opportunities, so that interfere with their current game play.

The problem is that I dont know which problem it is supposed to fix that cant be fixed by you posting a bid for 1g20s under the current system.

Wanze.8410:

laokoko.7403:

Wanze.8410:

laokoko.7403:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

laokoko.7403:

I hope they can change the TP system. Allow buy offers to put a min and max price.

For example the minimum buy offer for a certain item is 10 silver. I can put a buy offer of 11 silver min and 15 silver max. So I dont’ need to check the trading post every single minutes to 1 copper up people. If other people over bid me, it’ll automatically up my bid offer.

I think that’s the system most online trade system works. If you want to buy an item, you put a max bid, and the trader will automatically up the bidding price until you reach the maximum bids.

That’s how eBay works, but the TP isn’t an auction house; it’s a clearing house: you put in your offer and it fulfills or it doesn’t.

tl;dr there’s hardly any 1-copper issue for people who aim for a favorable middle ground.

Well we are just running in circle. You dont’ like the system, I like the system.

Maybe you should tell me what’s wrong with my system instead telling me TP isn’t an auction house. What problem will it cause instead.

No one says the GW2 trading system have to follow any specific system right?

The problem with your system is that it will change nothing at the fact that you will get outbid fast as soon as someone has an autobid 1 copper higher than you active.

If ITem A has a highest bid of 1g and you put in an automated bid of 1g1c to 1g20s and someone puts in an automated bid of 1g2c to 1g25s, you will still lose out. If you are willing to put in an automated bid up to 1g20s, you might as well put in that bid under the current system and decrease the chance of you getting outbid.

I dont’ understand how that is a problem. The maximum I’m willing to pay is 1g20s anyway. If someone want to outbid me to 1g25 silver is their choice.

The only problem I see is the buy order price and sell order price will be closer. So flipper will have less opportunities, so that interfere with their current game play.

The problem is that I dont know which problem it is supposed to fix that cant be fixed by you posting a bid for 1g20s under the current system.

It’s just for convenience. I dont’ want to overpay if I dont’ need to. But I dont ’want to stare at the trading post a whole day just to 1 copper up people.

I dont’ know why a more convenient system is wrong. That being said, I doubt it is a big enough problem Anet bother to change it. They have much better things to work on.

laokoko.7403:

Wanze.8410:

laokoko.7403:

Wanze.8410:

laokoko.7403:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

laokoko.7403:

I hope they can change the TP system. Allow buy offers to put a min and max price.

For example the minimum buy offer for a certain item is 10 silver. I can put a buy offer of 11 silver min and 15 silver max. So I dont’ need to check the trading post every single minutes to 1 copper up people. If other people over bid me, it’ll automatically up my bid offer.

I think that’s the system most online trade system works. If you want to buy an item, you put a max bid, and the trader will automatically up the bidding price until you reach the maximum bids.

That’s how eBay works, but the TP isn’t an auction house; it’s a clearing house: you put in your offer and it fulfills or it doesn’t.

tl;dr there’s hardly any 1-copper issue for people who aim for a favorable middle ground.

Well we are just running in circle. You dont’ like the system, I like the system.

Maybe you should tell me what’s wrong with my system instead telling me TP isn’t an auction house. What problem will it cause instead.

No one says the GW2 trading system have to follow any specific system right?

The problem with your system is that it will change nothing at the fact that you will get outbid fast as soon as someone has an autobid 1 copper higher than you active.

If ITem A has a highest bid of 1g and you put in an automated bid of 1g1c to 1g20s and someone puts in an automated bid of 1g2c to 1g25s, you will still lose out. If you are willing to put in an automated bid up to 1g20s, you might as well put in that bid under the current system and decrease the chance of you getting outbid.

I dont’ understand how that is a problem. The maximum I’m willing to pay is 1g20s anyway. If someone want to outbid me to 1g25 silver is their choice.

The only problem I see is the buy order price and sell order price will be closer. So flipper will have less opportunities, so that interfere with their current game play.

The problem is that I dont know which problem it is supposed to fix that cant be fixed by you posting a bid for 1g20s under the current system.

It’s just for convenience. I dont’ want to overpay if I dont’ need to. But I dont ’want to stare at the trading post a whole day just to 1 copper up people.

I dont’ know why a more convenient system is wrong. That being said, I doubt it is a big enough problem Anet bother to change it. They have much better things to work on.

Another reason why your proposed system wont work:
You place an autobid between 1g and 1g10s with 1 copper increments, if you get outbid. Your bid will be 1g1c to start with. It stays up for a while until someone else places an autobid between 1g2c and 1g10s. So your autobids start outbidding themselves by 1 copper each until you reach 1g10s.
Thats 500 bids each, so you need around 525g to place all those bids. Even if your bids that get outbid are cancelled automatically, it still requires you to go to the BLTC NPC to pick your gold up again.

Wanze.8410:

The problem with your system is that it will change nothing

There’s a huge, huge difference between equilibrium bidding behavior in a first price system vs a second price system. The difference between the two would, in fact, be substantial.

Wanze.8410:

The problem is that I dont know which problem it is supposed to fix that cant be fixed by you posting a bid for 1g20s under the current system.

It fixes the problem stemming from the uncertainly surrounding whether or not you are bidding against yourself.

Wanze.8410:

Another reason why your proposed system wont work:
You place an autobid between 1g and 1g10s with 1 copper increments, if you get outbid. Your bid will be 1g1c to start with. It stays up for a while until someone else places an autobid between 1g2c and 1g10s. So your autobids start outbidding themselves by 1 copper each until you reach 1g10s.

If you build it into the game, you’d place a 1g10s bid and pay 1g10s at that time. The TP then coppers with the other bids until it finds the highest. If that number is less than 1g10s, then that is the high bid, and if yours is accepted the TP gives you your item and returns the difference between your deposit and the final sale price. If you are outbid, your 1g10s simply sits on the TP until it becomes the high bid.

All the ‘having to keep placing bids and returning gold’ behavior is a problem that the bots have to deal with, it’s not inherent to 2nd price systems.

If you want the item enough and it is readily available, you should just pay that instant buy price. I don’t see any problems with 1c bid higher. If you aren’t willing to pay that price, then put in maximum price and not 1c more and be done with it. If someone outbids you by 1c, it means they want it more than you and it’s not necessarily a bot. I always get outbid by 1c and always undersold by 1c. I know how it feels and there’s not much can be done about it. Unless you want Anet to implement a system where increment bids and sells are at least 5%. 1% is meaningless. If you’re going to implement a system to rid those ridiculous bidders, do at least 5%. So 1000gold item needs bids/lists of either 50g higher or 50g lower.

Ensign.2189:

Wanze.8410:

The problem with your system is that it will change nothing

There’s a huge, huge difference between equilibrium bidding behavior in a first price system vs a second price system. The difference between the two would, in fact, be substantial.

Wanze.8410:

The problem is that I dont know which problem it is supposed to fix that cant be fixed by you posting a bid for 1g20s under the current system.

It fixes the problem stemming from the uncertainly surrounding whether or not you are bidding against yourself.

Wanze.8410:

Another reason why your proposed system wont work:
You place an autobid between 1g and 1g10s with 1 copper increments, if you get outbid. Your bid will be 1g1c to start with. It stays up for a while until someone else places an autobid between 1g2c and 1g10s. So your autobids start outbidding themselves by 1 copper each until you reach 1g10s.

If you build it into the game, you’d place a 1g10s bid and pay 1g10s at that time. The TP then coppers with the other bids until it finds the highest. If that number is less than 1g10s, then that is the high bid, and if yours is accepted the TP gives you your item and returns the difference between your deposit and the final sale price. If you are outbid, your 1g10s simply sits on the TP until it becomes the high bid.

All the ‘having to keep placing bids and returning gold’ behavior is a problem that the bots have to deal with, it’s not inherent to 2nd price systems.

Well, if you are willing to pay up to 1.1g for the item in the first place, why not put that bid in during the existing system? It will most certainly lower the chance of getting outbid.

This proposal is nothing short of suggesting to give everybody a bidding bot. If everyone has one, the price ceiling of your bid would be the same as putting in the highest bid now.

It will change nothing at the fact that you will get outbid as soon as someone else gets active in the market, meaning it wont deliver ANY convenience improvement.

And while 2 accounts are auto outbidding each other, which price does someone who wants to sell the item see in his window?

These kinds of autobids might work in an auction house but not on the tp because on the tp you are actually bidding for an item that isnt up for sale yet.

Wanze.8410:

Ensign.2189:

Wanze.8410:

The problem with your system is that it will change nothing

There’s a huge, huge difference between equilibrium bidding behavior in a first price system vs a second price system. The difference between the two would, in fact, be substantial.

Wanze.8410:

The problem is that I dont know which problem it is supposed to fix that cant be fixed by you posting a bid for 1g20s under the current system.

It fixes the problem stemming from the uncertainly surrounding whether or not you are bidding against yourself.

Wanze.8410:

Another reason why your proposed system wont work:
You place an autobid between 1g and 1g10s with 1 copper increments, if you get outbid. Your bid will be 1g1c to start with. It stays up for a while until someone else places an autobid between 1g2c and 1g10s. So your autobids start outbidding themselves by 1 copper each until you reach 1g10s.

If you build it into the game, you’d place a 1g10s bid and pay 1g10s at that time. The TP then coppers with the other bids until it finds the highest. If that number is less than 1g10s, then that is the high bid, and if yours is accepted the TP gives you your item and returns the difference between your deposit and the final sale price. If you are outbid, your 1g10s simply sits on the TP until it becomes the high bid.

All the ‘having to keep placing bids and returning gold’ behavior is a problem that the bots have to deal with, it’s not inherent to 2nd price systems.

Well, if you are willing to pay up to 1.1g for the item in the first place, why not put that bid in during the existing system? It will most certainly lower the chance of getting outbid.

This proposal is nothing short of suggesting to give everybody a bidding bot. If everyone has one, the price ceiling of your bid would be the same as putting in the highest bid now.

It will change nothing at the fact that you will get outbid as soon as someone else gets active in the market, meaning it wont deliver ANY convenience improvement.

And while 2 accounts are auto outbidding each other, which price does someone who wants to sell the item see in his window?

These kinds of autobids might work in an auction house but not on the tp because on the tp you are actually bidding for an item that isnt up for sale yet.

You know those kind of people exists. That’s why people complaining about 1 copper outbid.

Those people are willing to pay x amount, but they dont’ want to if they can get it cheaper. I’m not sure what is there to argue about.

I dont’ see anything in your logic why the system dont’ work. Why can’t people bid the first buy order. What does the item havn’t been on sale yet have anything to do with it.

You do realize computer are automatic, so if someone input a higher maximum buy order the computer take the highest buy order price. The computer don’t actually 1 copper up when 2 account are bidding.

Honestly, it is just about human psychy. If other people want to outbid me, I dont’ care. But I don’t want to 1 copper another person and keep checking the TP just so I can save money.

That being said, as a game design, it’s probably not a good idea. Because maybe that’s how game designer gets player addictive. So people can keep checking TP to see if they get outbid.

I’m quite curious how the stock market works though, since the buy order and sell order are so close and there are so many transaction, I’m not sure how it work. Assume there are no other transaction, and someone place a sell on 1 share of stock for 95 cent, and I place a buy on 1 dollar. Do I pay 95 cent or 1 dollar (assume there are no other transaction). Or the transaction dont’ even go through untill either the seller or buyer change the price.

Wanze.8410:

Well, if you are willing to pay up to 1.1g for the item in the first place, why not put that bid in during the existing system? It will most certainly lower the chance of getting outbid.

It lowers the chances of being outbid, but also ensures that you will pay more if you do ‘win’. People do not like paying more than they have to, so they rationally shade their bids to avoid overpaying.

Wanze.8410:

It will change nothing at the fact that you will get outbid as soon as someone else gets active in the market, meaning it wont deliver ANY convenience improvement.

You get outbid only if someone is willing to pay more than you are. If they are not, you do not pay the full amount of your bid. This matters, because when you’re only paying enough to outbid the 2nd price, it makes sense to bid your full amount – unlike the current first price system, where you need to shade your bid to hedge against only bidding against yourself.

Wanze.8410:

And while 2 accounts are auto outbidding each other, which price does someone who wants to sell the item see in his window?

If this is properly implemented in a trading post? The seller sees the second highest offer, plus one copper.

Wanze.8410:

These kinds of autobids might work in an auction house but not on the tp because on the tp you are actually bidding for an item that isnt up for sale yet.

Why do you think this distinction matters? With second price bids it makes no difference at all – the math is identical.

A few forms to think about. Assume a minimum price of 1g, and that your personal maximum bid is 2g (at which price you’re indifferent about winning). For simplicity, assume there’s only one other bidder and your beliefs about her secret maximum bid are uniform over some interval (1g, X : X > 2g).

Optimum behaviors are thus:

Second price, one sealed bid: you bid 2g.

First price, one sealed bid: you bid 1.5g.

Second price, continuous bidding, some real transaction cost: you bid 2g.

First price, continuous bidding, some real transaction cost: you bid 1g, then start coppering; do whatever you can to minimize transaction costs so you can maintain the high bid for a longer period of time.

This last option will approach the efficiency of the first 3 if and only if the real cost of placing a bid is arbitrarily close to 0; with real transaction costs, the game is much more complicated to model, but prices stay well below the first 3 as bidders compensate themselves for the iterated transaction costs in their bids.

People aren’t coppering for the fun of it – they’re doing it because it’s optimal, if inefficient. The advantage of a second price bid system is that it makes the market more efficient and allows people to bid their maximum price without risk of overpaying.

Ensign.2189:

A few forms to think about. Assume a minimum price of 1g, and that your personal maximum bid is 2g (at which price you’re indifferent about winning). For simplicity, assume there’s only one other bidder and your beliefs about her secret maximum bid are uniform over some interval (1g, X : X > 2g).

Optimum behaviors are thus:

Second price, one sealed bid: you bid 2g.

First price, one sealed bid: you bid 1.5g.

Second price, continuous bidding, some real transaction cost: you bid 2g.

First price, continuous bidding, some real transaction cost: you bid 1g, then start coppering; do whatever you can to minimize transaction costs so you can maintain the high bid for a longer period of time.

This last option will approach the efficiency of the first 3 if and only if the real cost of placing a bid is arbitrarily close to 0; with real transaction costs, the game is much more complicated to model, but prices stay well below the first 3 as bidders compensate themselves for the iterated transaction costs in their bids.

People aren’t coppering for the fun of it – they’re doing it because it’s optimal, if inefficient. The advantage of a second price bid system is that it makes the market more efficient and allows people to bid their maximum price without risk of overpaying.

So you have your automated bid go up from 1g to 2g and go do a dungeon. Now i come in, place a bid at 1g1c and get outbid by your bot immediately. I realize i compete against an automated bid and test out its price ceiling by 10s increments until i reach 2g at which point i dont get outbid anymore. That takes like a minute or so and youre outbid completely. Now once your maximum bid is reached, either your gold is returned to your pickup tab, in which case i cancel my 2g bid and list another one at 1g again or your autobid between 1 and 2g stays active and it places a bid again, once the highest bid falls between 1-2g. In that case, i make a bid at 1.9999g and let you buy the item at 2g. Once it fills, I cancel my bid and make a new one at 1g.

Either way, i still “win” because i monitored the tp while you did a dungeon, just like under the current system:
You either post a bid at 1g and get outbid by me immediately or you post at 2g, i dont outbid you and you get your item, while i have the highest bid at 1g after yours filled.

Caveats to the above:

First off, the fact that people’s decisions to sell depend upon the high bid does make overbidding a real relevant tactic – when you’re competing to get buy orders to fill, not competing against other bidders. In a second price system that’s no longer an option. In markets without competitive bidding this would definitely be an issue.

Second, it gets kind of messy when there are substitute goods (either different items serving the same purpose, or multiple copies of the same item that would be arriving later). Either case gives reason to shade bids and makes second price systems no longer clearly better than first price systems (since you don’t necessarily want to win THIS ITEM but just get one or more from some set).

Which is to say, the previous oversimplifications are just that, oversimplifications; but there’s some truth to them. All real buy orders in this game are not competitive bids between two parties, but between three – the decision to sell is not a given, making velocity endogenous. Price discovery is not a trivial task, but the current system is one that is ideally handled by sophisticated bots – which cannot be the best design.

Wanze.8410:

So you have your automated bid go up from 1g to 2g and go do a dungeon. Now i come in, place a bid at 1g1c and get outbid by your bot immediately. I realize i compete against an automated bid and test out its price ceiling by 10s increments until i reach 2g at which point i dont get outbid anymore. That takes like a minute or so and youre outbid completely. Now once your maximum bid is reached, either your gold is returned to your pickup tab, in which case i cancel my 2g bid and list another one at 1g again or your autobid between 1 and 2g stays active and it places a bid again, once the highest bid falls between 1-2g. In that case, i make a bid at 1.9999g and let you buy the item at 2g. Once it fills, I cancel my bid and make a new one at 1g.

Either way, i still “win” because i monitored the tp while you did a dungeon, just like under the current system:
You either post a bid at 1g and get outbid by me immediately or you post at 2g, i dont outbid you and you get your item, while i have the highest bid at 1g after yours filled.

There is so much that could happen there. One is you bid 1.9999 gold, and you actually get the item. And one is you give up, and the bidder get what he want at 2 gold, which is what he intended to max pay anyway. Or I get my item at 1g1s because no one bid against me.

And the whole point of this system is… I dont’ want to check the TP again after I place the min and max bid.

I dont’ care if you cancel your bid after. Under the old system, I wont’ get the item anyway unless I either pay 2 gold up frond and have no chance on getting it cheaper. Or I take my chacne at 1g1s and loss anyway since you keep monitoring the trading post. And the good thing about the new system is you have a chance to pay 1.9999 gold intead of 1 gold.

It is a free market. The people winning should be people paying the most money, not people who monitoring the TP the most(you probably felt differently). And all it does is speedup the equilibrium faster.

But there is also a chance, someone place a buy order of something and the seller keep putting up fake bid so he can sell the item to the buy order. Which is indeed a flaw of the system.

Anyhow you don’t like the system, I like the system. I dont’ think there’s anything wrong with it. I think most of your counter argument is it don’t solve any problem. The way I felt is it solve my problem.

OK, how do you solve this problem:
Item A has lowest bid of 99s.
Player A places a bid for min 1g max 2g
Player B does exactly the same shortly after
Highest bid rises to 2g, with player A first in line, then player B.
Player C places a bid of 2g and 1 silver.
At this point, the bids of Player A and B will be removed and will only become active again, once the highest bid goes under 2g.
Now player D wants to sell 2 each of the item. The first item goes to player C at 2g1s.

Who gets the 2nd item, if player A and B will have their autobids go active at the same time again at the same value?

Wanze.8410:

OK, how do you solve this problem:
Item A has lowest bid of 99s.
Player A places a bid for min 1g max 2g
Player B does exactly the same shortly after
Lowest bid rises to 2g belonging to Player A.
Player C places a bid of 2g and 1 silver.
At this point, the bids of Player A and B will be removed and will only become active again, once the highest bid goes under 2g.
Now player D wants to sell 2 each of the item. The first item goes to player C at 2g1s.

Who gets the 2nd item, if player A and B will have their autobids go active at the same time again at the same value?

I’m not sure what you mean. Do you mean if the bid reset? For example player A bid min 1 gold, max 2 gold, if another person B bid 2 gold 1 silver and got the item, player A bid reset to 1 gold?

You dont’ have to reset them, you can just keep players A bid at 2 gold after B is fulfill.
Or in your example, player A should get the item since he bid the item first.

To be honest, there isn’t much difference like you said, the main point is people like me or maybe there are others dont’ want to check the TP very often.

I don’t think it’s such a big issue though anyway. And I doubt Anet will do anything about it. Pretty sure they have better things they should be working on. Besides it is very confusing like some of your example showed.