Guild Wars 2

So… what in the gem store is necessary in order to play the game?

If you have issues with BLCs simply throw them away when you get them. It is not really that hard. I also seem to recall them lowering the drop rate quite a bit, so it should be even less of an issue nowadays.

I have gotten plenty of rewards in-game, while none in the gem-store. But I suppose that is all a matter of opinion. In my eyes, getting something for doing something is a reward. Simply buying something is not.

I get that you dislike the gemstore (you have been complaining about it since before release I seem to recall) but you are making it more of an issue than it actually is. It is fully possible to experience and enjoy the game and completely ignore the gem-store. But you prefer to see the gem-store in everything and thus it creates and issue for you.

And the fact remains. Without the gem-store we would most likely have much of a game left to play now. At least we doesn’t (as of yet) have pure OP and/or gamechanging things in the store, as we had in GW1.

lordkrall.7241:

So… what in the gem store is necessary in order to play the game?

Nothing, but my point was that the Gem Store has contaminated the reward system.

lordkrall.7241:

If you have issues with BLCs simply throw them away when you get them. It is not really that hard. I also seem to recall them lowering the drop rate quite a bit, so it should be even less of an issue nowadays.

The bigger issue here is that each BLC could have been an actual reward. Instead, it is a placeholder for a reward, that I will not be cashing in.

lordkrall.7241:

In my eyes, getting something for doing something is a reward. Simply buying something is not.

That is exactly my point.

lordkrall.7241:

I get that you dislike the gemstore (you have been complaining about it since before release I seem to recall) but you are making it more of an issue than it actually is. It is fully possible to experience and enjoy the game and completely ignore the gem-store. But you prefer to see the gem-store in everything and thus it creates and issue for you.

I don’t think it’s quite that simple. I think a lot of players might agree that the game lacks good rewards, and I’m saying that the Gem Store is the cause.

lordkrall.7241:

At least we doesn’t (as of yet) have pure OP and/or gamechanging things in the store, as we had in GW1.

There are more game-affecting items in the store now, than there ever were in GW1. The various boosters come to mind, but worse are the instant-teleport-to-home instance items. The ore-node for your home instance, the airship tickets, the dyes that you now have to buy (they were removed as drops, and many dyes can not be crafted). The toys that give you fun skills to use in PVE, the musical instruments.

Basically everything that’s really fun about the game, has been locked in the store. If all these items were obtainable in the game itself, the game would be so much more rewarding, and there would be a lot more to do.

You are mad.

What has contaminated gw2 is a sense of entitlement.

Gem store is there to provide convenience to players, and income for devs.

No one is forcing you to use it.

Not only is the gem store purely unrequired to enjoy 100% of the games content, it doesn’t give an unfair advantage to paying players in any way shape or form. Without the gem store, ArenaNet can’t:

• Pay their development team to create new features, content.
• Pay their community team to promote the game and interact with players.
• Pay for the rack rental space at their data centre.
• Pay for their server managers to ensure the machines are running optimally.
• Pay their executives to travel to gaming conventions to discuss the future.

If they removed the gem store, to be feasible, the game would need to be a monthly subscription. That’s all there is too it.

Berlo.9237:

Not only is the gem store purely unrequired to enjoy 100% of the games content, it doesn’t give an unfair advantage to paying players in any way shape or form.

My original post addresses the rewards in the game, and has nothing to do with gem-store purchases being required.

Berlo.9237:

Without the gem store, ArenaNet can’t:

• Pay their development team to create new features, content.
• Pay their community team to promote the game and interact with players.
• Pay for the rack rental space at their data centre.
• Pay for their server managers to ensure the machines are running optimally.
• Pay their executives to travel to gaming conventions to discuss the future.

And this is simply not true. They could release an expansion, and continue to pay for their development that way.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Nothing, but my point was that the Gem Store has contaminated the reward system.

The bigger issue here is that each BLC could have been an actual reward. Instead, it is a placeholder for a reward, that I will not be cashing in.

I don’t think it’s quite that simple. I think a lot of players might agree that the game lacks good rewards, and I’m saying that the Gem Store is the cause.

There are more game-affecting items in the store now, than there ever were in GW1. The various boosters come to mind, but worse are the instant-teleport-to-home instance items. The ore-node for your home instance, the airship tickets, the dyes that you now have to buy (they were removed as drops, and many dyes can not be crafted). The toys that give you fun skills to use in PVE, the musical instruments.

Basically everything that’s really fun about the game, has been locked in the store. If all these items were obtainable in the game itself, the game would be so much more rewarding, and there would be a lot more to do.

I don’t agree. I can quite easily get everything I want in-game by simply playing. The gem store have no bearing at all on my enjoyment of feel of rewards.

Yes a lot of people might agree with that. But at the same time a lot of people might not. And I rather sure that many of those that do agree, does not blame the gem store for it.

Probably, but in GW1 we had the ability to outright buy every single skill in the game, instead of unlocking them. Which gave a massive advantage to PvP-players.
The Mercenary Heroes also made it possible to create more or less completely invincible AI-controlled teams, which was a very large advantage that was completely unobtainable without paying real money.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And this is simply not true. They could release an expansion, and continue to pay for their development that way.

And how do you suggest they paid all their 300+ employees during those years it takes to develop the expansion?

lordkrall.7241:

So… what in the gem store is necessary in order to play the game?

If you have issues with BLCs simply throw them away when you get them. It is not really that hard. I also seem to recall them lowering the drop rate quite a bit, so it should be even less of an issue nowadays.

I have gotten plenty of rewards in-game, while none in the gem-store. But I suppose that is all a matter of opinion. In my eyes, getting something for doing something is a reward. Simply buying something is not.

I get that you dislike the gemstore (you have been complaining about it since before release I seem to recall) but you are making it more of an issue than it actually is. It is fully possible to experience and enjoy the game and completely ignore the gem-store. But you prefer to see the gem-store in everything and thus it creates and issue for you.

And the fact remains. Without the gem-store we would most likely have much of a game left to play now. At least we doesn’t (as of yet) have pure OP and/or gamechanging things in the store, as we had in GW1.

Than trie to play a new account (new player) with only 1 bankslot and the normal 5 bagslots and you will understand very fast how annoying it is. How you need in this game more space but you can´t afford it anymore as a new player just from gold and you have to use creditcard. Its Pay to win – even when whiteknights in this forum still bring same kitten over and over : “So… what in the gem store is necessary in order to play the game?”

The gemstore has always been about giving players two things: cosmetics and convenience. With one very notable exception, this has always been the case.

While I would indeed like to see more ways of getting new skins through normal play (for example, now that Sclerite weapons are no longer available, how about introducing new recipes that let us craft them using Karka Shells?), I am generally OK with cosmetics/convenience being sold for cash. ANet needs to pay the bills somehow, and if a player is willing to sacrifice money for time (in the sense that it just bypasses meaningless grinding or farming), why not let them?

lordkrall.7241:

And how do you suggest they paid all their 300+ employees during those years it takes to develop the expansion?

Well they’ve had over 2 years already. That’s enough time to develop two expansions, or one really big one. That’s how it worked with GW1. Right after Prophecies, they started working on Factions, and then Nightfall, and then Eye of the North.

Instead they chose to develop the Living Story, which has been of very mixed quality, and is a lot of content that is temporary. They could have used that time to expand the game with permanent content.

Compared to every other MMORPG I’ve played with a cash shop that’s not subscription, this game is a dream. There are quests in lotro that involve using the cash shop. DDO too. Star Wars 2 requires you to pay money to have skill bars.

Yes, there is a need for the company to call attention to the gem store, but it’s not nearly as bad as you’re making it out to be.

Chests are like whites. You can put them on the trading post for 5 copper and get 4 copper each.

The stuff like storage and bag space…well chest storage was even sold in Guild Wars 1.

I’m just not seeing it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Fast forward a few years later, and we have GW2. A game in which the Gem Store has infected the game like some sort of illness. And this isn’t really about whether the store is necessary to fund the further development of the game. This is more about how deep the Gem Store’s muddy fingers reach down into the reward system of the game, and ultimately destroy it.

I’m . . . not sure if the Gem Store is to blame for what I find wrong with the game.

We first run into the problem of the store when we receive Blacklion chests. For a while we still get free keys for doing our personal story. But then we soon learn that this source of keys quickly comes to an end, and after that you have to pay. And while we may have no inclination to buy any keys, the unopened Blacklion Chests still start filling up our bank, and it doesn’t feel like we are being rewarded. Instead, it feels like every drop of a Blacklion Chest is an ad for the store, a never-ending attempt to draw us in. And still we refuse, and so the blacklion chest pile starts growing and growing. How many of us have a pile of over 250 unopened Blacklion Chests in their bank?

To be honest, this is probably Mann Co’s fault more.

But the problem reaches much further than this. The game seems to lack a lot of actual rewards. Most of the fun items, mini pets and cool armor skins are locked in the Gem Store, leaving the rest of the game rather barren, like a wasteland after a plague. Many of the valuable items that a player might wish to craft, require insane amounts of grinding, which is made easier with just a few purchases. There are a lot of things for which you will need to spend vast amounts of gold in other to obtain them. Many recipes seem to require such insane amounts of crafting materials, that buying them from the tradepost seems like the only option. This drives up prices, and ultimately undermines any desire to get these items.

That encapsulates my whole problem with Obsidian Armor in GW1 in a nutshell . . . except for where “it’s gods-awful ugly”. The quickest way to get it was farm Plat, buy Ecto/Shards, and farm more Plat, buy a run to activate the Forgemaster and get it done. And I have yet to do it just because it makes me sad.

There’s a valid point in the Gem Store not being necessary on one hand . . . on the other, well . . .

This is how you efficiently monetize a game these days. Microtransactions. I don’t like it, but I thank Kormir every day when I notice it’s a whole lot less intrusive than in other games . . . or that it’s not as unnecessary as its inclusion is in other games (-coughcough- Bravely Default).

As for the lack of neat/cool rewards in open world play? Yeah. I don’t lay that fault directly on the Gem Store. I lay it on the dozen backpieces I have and can still only use one at a time.

I think I understand where the OP is coming from actually, though I am not certain it is as simple as just blaming it on the gem store. I do feel that the reward structure for actually playing the game is lacking since there currently isn’t a single item in the game that can be gotten for completing some kind of challenging content. Everything is earned through rote repetition by farming for various currencies and very very rarely do you actually have something of immediate value drop for you from killing a particular monster, it makes for a shallow experience in my opinion. Think of how much better it would be if obtaining something like a legendary were tied to some sort of epic chain of quests that had a story or reason behind obtaining the item. As it stands now the only thing legendary about obtaining a legendary is your patience for farming or opening up your wallet. There are so many missed story telling opportunities that Anet could tie to some of the itemization they have put into the game. So while I recognize that Anet needs the gemstore to keep the lights on, I do think they need to have a serious look at how they are handling some of these things. Obviously these are just my opinions and I am sure for every person that agrees there will be at least that many that don’t.

I know what you mean, though I’m not sure what the answer is. I like what Extra Credits has to say about F2P models: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhz9OXy86a0

Their general message is that players should want to spend money to acquire things that they are genuinely happy to have. I think the Box o’ Fun and the Communal Boost Bonfire are both great choices for store items – in fact, they are similar in spirit to the “money ball” example that the Extra Credits video talks about.

Some store items that are not so enjoyable to buy, in my opinion, are: Black Lion Keys (there is no joy in opening a chest and getting nothing remotely desirable, which is always a possibility, since it is a dice roll), Transmutation Charges (usefulness is too fleeting).

The tendency to put new skins in the store is understandable because it takes development time to put them together, so the cost has to be justified somehow.

However, because games like these offers tons of other skins through general gameplay and a lot of work is put into some of these gem store skins, I know that I get this feeling like I am segmented from a portion of the playerbase. I am active and ready to participate in new stuff but can’t because I can’t monetarily afford to.

For me, it’s not so much about the items themselves as it is being able to have that experience of feeling connected with the life and updates of the game. It is a big part of what keeps me wrapped up in MMOs much longer than single-player games.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well they’ve had over 2 years already. That’s enough time to develop two expansions, or one really big one. That’s how it worked with GW1. Right after Prophecies, they started working on Factions, and then Nightfall, and then Eye of the North.

Instead they chose to develop the Living Story, which has been of very mixed quality, and is a lot of content that is temporary. They could have used that time to expand the game with permanent content.

And how would they have survived until now without the gem-store then?

Comparing it to GW1 isn’t really fair.
Firstly the game is much more advanced and thus most likely takes way more time to develop. Secondly they have a much higher amount of employees, and as such they need to pay way more wages.

As for the GW1 model: I am rather sure that they actually started with Factions (and potentially even Nightfall) before Prophecies were even released. You also have to keep in mind that the plan was to have a new campaign (not expansion) every six months. A goal they only ever managed to fulfill ONE out of three times.

Would you really have preferred if they had released a grand total of nothing at all until an expansion was ready (which would most likely take years, no matter how many people you threw at it)? The fact still remains that they would still have to pay their employees during the time it took to develop it, and as such they would need some sort of income during that time.

I can’t comment on the rest, but if will say that a game which Focusses on cosmetic rewards shouldn’t have the vast majority of said rewards in the cash shop.

In that sense, this game is p2fullfillthegoaloftheaverageplayer. Because whilst it’s true that you don’t win anything, it’s exactly as I mentioned originally: The goal of the game is mostly present via the cash shop in terms of achieving it. The number of skins available outside the cash shop is uh, miniscule post release.

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

I can’t comment on the rest, but if will say that a game which Focusses on cosmetic rewards shouldn’t have the vast majority of said rewards in the cash shop.

In that sense, this game is p2fullfillthegoaloftheaverageplayer. Because whilst it’s true that you don’t win anything, it’s exactly as I mentioned originally: The goal of the game is mostly present via the cash shop in terms of achieving it. The number of skins available outside the cash shop is uh, miniscule post release.

I assume you mean armor skins, because most weapon skins can be purchased on the TP for gold.

You, as many other people, operate under a false assumption that Gem Store contains rewards for playing the game. That is incorrect.

• By playing the game, you get rewarded for playing the game. I.e. by playing in Dry Top, you get new weapon skins, new stats weapon/armour/food recipes, 3 new backpieces up to ascended, mask, goggles, kites.

• By paying money in Gem Store, you get “rewarded” for supporting the game. I.e. by paying money, you can get a mini or a Ley Line weapon/armour skin.

There are several reasons why people are still seeing a connection between in-game rewards and Gem Store while there is none:

• Gem Store items may be themed according to the current Living Story.
• You can open Gem Store inside the game and not in a browser.
• ANet was kind enough to let people convert farmed gold to gems, making the Gem Store closer to the in-game economy. Maybe if ANet wasn’t so kind, that would’ve removed this misconception. Should they remove this option now maybe to remedy the situation?

And the fact remains. Without the gem-store we would most likely have much of a game left to play now. At least we doesn’t (as of yet) have pure OP and/or gamechanging things in the store, as we had in GW1. [/quote]

Than trie to play a new account (new player) with only 1 bankslot and the normal 5 bagslots and you will understand very fast how annoying it is. How you need in this game more space but you can´t afford it anymore as a new player just from gold and you have to use creditcard. Its Pay to win – even when whiteknights in this forum still bring same kitten over and over : “So… what in the gem store is necessary in order to play the game?”
[/quote]

You’re joking right? I’ve played this game since launch and have never once baught bank expansion slots or character bag extension slots. Even with an 80 character you can hold everything you can use on your given character with just 1 or 2 invisible bags. I have been playing for over 2 years and still have 5+ open slots in my unupgraded bank. Call people white knights all you want, your just an MMO horder.

kult.3465:

You are mad.

What has contaminated gw2 is a sense of entitlement.

Gem store is there to provide convenience to players, and income for devs.

No one is forcing you to use it.

the concern is that when it comes to new cosmetic items and such the scales skew heavily in favor of the gem store.

Lishtenbird.2814:

You, as many other people, operate under a false assumption that Gem Store contains rewards for playing the game. That is incorrect.

• By playing the game, you get rewarded for playing the game. I.e. by playing in Dry Top, you get new weapon skins, new stats weapon/armour/food recipes, 3 new backpieces up to ascended, mask, goggles, kites.

• By paying money in Gem Store, you get “rewarded” for supporting the game. I.e. by paying money, you can get a mini or a Ley Line weapon/armour skin.

There are several reasons why people are still seeing a connection between in-game rewards and Gem Store while there is none:

• Gem Store items may be themed according to the current Living Story.
• You can open Gem Store inside the game and not in a browser.
• ANet was kind enough to let people convert farmed gold to gems, making the Gem Store closer to the in-game economy. Maybe if ANet wasn’t so kind, that would’ve removed this misconception. Should they remove this option now maybe to remedy the situation?

This is a gross oversimplification of how it works though. Everyone who plays the game is supporting the game (and supported it when they bought the box). Their activity alone supports the game by making the game world active. They are not all directly handing over money to Anet, but to imply that people are only supporting the game if they are buying from the Gem Store is exactly the kind of segmentation that has these models leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

I mean, at what point does one become a “true” supporter of the game? After the first Gem Store purpose? Only if he/she makes regular purchases?

Players shouldn’t feel disjointed from the overall experience because they’re under a certain threshold of spending money on the game. And because a lot of us come from the days of sub games where new content is always available to subscribers, it’s an odd and alienating feeling to see new content that is behind a paywall. (I realize I’m using the term “content” liberally here, considering that I’m thinking of stuff like skins – but it is a kind of content, even if it is not what we generally think of when we talk about content updates in MMOs.)

That is how it strikes me.

tl;dr: gem store is bad because of unconfirmed rumors.

Anyway, there’s nothing inherently wrong with the gem store. Sure, there are some exclusive items, but nothing you can’t get with in-game currency, so this is basically a QQ thread.

What OP doesn’t understand is that one time purchase MMORPG games do not exist, or die very quickly. You wants server maintenance, updates to client, content and what not? These things cost money, and as time progresses the one time purchase fee doesn’t cover up the expenses. It’s either some sort of subscription or something truly horrible like LotRO, where you have to buy almost everything – even if you have VIP account.

The gem store (which you do not have to use at all, or use without even paying money) is a good middle ground.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well they’ve had over 2 years already. That’s enough time to develop two expansions, or one really big one. That’s how it worked with GW1. Right after Prophecies, they started working on Factions, and then Nightfall, and then Eye of the North.

Instead they chose to develop the Living Story, which has been of very mixed quality, and is a lot of content that is temporary. They could have used that time to expand the game with permanent content.

GW2 can’t pull of what GW1 did in this day and age. It’s only been a short amount of years, but the cost to build any sort of high quality MMO has gone up. People can keep on trying to hold up GW1 as an example of how things should be done, but budget wise, and I’m sure coding wise as well, they are two different beasts.

And unless you are suggesting a subscription fee, that doesn’t really answer the question. There needs to be something to fund and pay the developers with in between expansions, because on top of the expansion they would be working on in the background, they will have to work on the content patches, server maintenance, bug fixes, general balance issue, and etc. to release in-between the expansions as well.

The money from the expansion sales might be able to pay a chuck of the developers year round, but I doubt it would be able to fund everyone.

Eric.6109:

tl;dr: gem store is bad because of unconfirmed rumors.

Anyway, there’s nothing inherently wrong with the gem store. Sure, there are some exclusive items, but nothing you can’t get with in-game currency, so this is basically a QQ thread.

Now hang on just a moment. You mean grinding for in-game currency surely? Noticed how much the gold-to-gem exchange ratio has skyrocketed? You need about 100 gold for just 100 gems, while most items cost 500 gems or more. Many players hardly have 100 gold at all. Many players do not enjoy having to grind just to be able to pay for these items that are locked away in the store. For a game that was advertized as having no-grind, there seems to be a very strong push towards grinding, unless you pay real money.

Eric.6109:

What OP doesn’t understand is that one time purchase MMORPG games do not exist, or die very quickly.

GW1?

Eric.6109:

You wants server maintenance, updates to client, content and what not? These things cost money, and as time progresses the one time purchase fee doesn’t cover up the expenses.

Is this true? Do any of us have the numbers for that, and how does that in any way invalidate my points regarding the effect the store has on the game’s reward system?

Eric.6109:

The gem store (which you do not have to use at all, or use without even paying money) is a good middle ground.

Defenders of the store keep pointing out that you do not need to use it, but this kind of deflects the original point I was making, that many of the game’s nice items are in the store, and not in the game. Which causes the game to feel very barren of rewards.

Erukk.1408:

GW2 can’t pull of what GW1 did in this day and age. It’s only been a short amount of years, but the cost to build any sort of high quality MMO has gone up. People can keep on trying to hold up GW1 as an example of how things should be done, but budget wise, and I’m sure coding wise as well, they are two different beasts.

Even if this is true, (which I’m not sure if it is, since GW2 reaches a far wider audience than GW1, and thus sells way more copies) this doesn’t excuse the lack of actual rewards in the game, versus the amount of items in the store. There seems to be a clear unbalance between what is available for dollars, and what is available in the game.

Erukk.1408:

The money from the expansion sales might be able to pay a chuck of the developers year round, but I doubt it would be able to fund everyone.

Without having any actual numbers on this, it is impossible to say for sure. But regardless, it doesn’t actually make the impact on the game’s reward system magically go away.

@OP.. are you serious.. your really miffed at things like BLC’s and the in game currency exchange rates.. ooh c’mon.

Firstly the Gem Store is just full of optional fluff.. none says you must get BL Chests to progress through the game and keys can easily be obtained without the need to buy any.
You say they could of been actual reward chest.. well guess what, we already have them as well as champ loots, trash loot etc …. what other reward chests do you need.

Of course the exchange rate has rocketed.. the in game wealth at the start was very minimal.. 2 years later its a very different animal and as such the amount of gems available with a much reduced profit avenue for the game… so of course the rates have moved as has the demand to use the exchange .. it serves two purposes – it makes money that can then further support the game and 2 – it is a money sink, which every MMO needs within its economy.

Anyone with half a brain for business understands there is always ongoing costs.. do you work for free, do you sit at your own hamster wheel to generate the power to run you PC, do you pay to keep your office warm, do you supply your own PC and equipment, do you maintain it yourself, etc, etc etc.. you think $30 a pop from pays for everything for the life of the game.. see sense please… no one needs to see the numbers and figures, its common sense.
After all that do you believe ANET/NCSoft to be a charity, putting out GW2 for us to play when we want without a need to see a return on their product… honestly.
The best way for a B2P/F2P business model to survive is to place carrots within the game and guess what rewards and optional fluff are some of the key elements to ensure they do.. otherwise lets go back to shelling of $10- $20 each per month like the old days, then wait 6-12 months for updates (sometimes longer) and then hope they can keep the machine oiled and running while we still complain about every little dime they make behind it.

Show me an MMO that has no grind within it .. you forget a grind is what you make it.. XP is a grind to some, making money is a grind, gaining achievements, gear, cosmetics, etc etc.. everything is a grind if you want to look at it that way.. I prefer to think that certain things are there which provide me with a goal.. nothing in game has a race tag attached to it.. you get nothing for being the first to wear a new shiny.. if you want it bad enuff you either have to work for it hard or casually or .. pop your credit card number in box and take the easy win route.. then come back and complain there isn’t enough things to do in game.

But most of items are available in game. So there are some exclusive skins in the gem store. So what? It doesn’t harm the reward system in any way, because no reward from bosses or dungeons is just a skin.

And you can always get stuff from gem store by converting your gold to gems, making everything accessible to everyone.

Seems to me you just want to complain about the gem store for the same of complaining, and because you want everything to just be handed to you.

There are no “rewards” in the store. Just a few items that you may (or may not) want to spend money on. So you can’t get the water ballon fight thingy from loot. Big deal.

btw: it’s 13 gold (iirc) for 100 gems. You want one of the items skins? They are about 600gems. That’s about 80Gold. There are in game items that are more expansive than that.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Eric.6109:

What OP doesn’t understand is that one time purchase MMORPG games do not exist, or die very quickly.

GW1?

Not an MMO, anymore than Diablo 2 was one.

Eric.6109:

But most of items are available in game. So there are some exclusive skins in the gem store. So what? It doesn’t harm the reward system in any way, because no reward from bosses or dungeons is just a skin.

And you can always get stuff from gem store by converting your gold to gems, making everything accessible to everyone.

This is a tired old diatribe that leads to stagnant, boring argument.

It’s not about the items themselves; it’s about the impact those items have on the overall game experience and the community.

Which is not something that can be fairly minimized into “just go get the currency if you want it.” You are trying to simplify a complex subject.

By the way, I feel it’s worth noting that although you can pay for a lot of items on the TP, nearly every item in the game (if not all), with the exception of Gem Store / Black Lion exclusive items, can be obtained through regular gameplay. That you can choose to buy many of them with gold, from other players, is an option, not a requirement.

And no, I am not saying that no Gem Store exclusive items should ever exist, in case anyone takes such an interpretation. The point is that it’s not the same experience and saying it is because you can pay gold still doesn’t make it the same experience.

well, it’s called capitalism. That’s all I can say.

And GW2 is far larger than GW1 in terms of scope. So what works for GW1 wont’ necessary work for GW2. And even if it works, more profit is all the company cares.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Firstly the Gem Store is just full of optional fluff.. none says you must get BL Chests to progress through the game and keys can easily be obtained without the need to buy any.

Keys are obtained by completing parts of your personal story. After you finish it, you no longer receive keys, unless you start a new character, but you still get BLC’s, which you can’t open unless you pay. And soon even that may be changed, if more changes from China are ported into our GW2.

It feels as if I’m being robbed of an actual reward. As if they are handing me a chest, and saying “Oh you want to open this chest, well sorry, you’ll have to pay for that”. Add to this the lack of in game rewards, and it ends up feeling like a lot of the stuff that is in the store, should have been in the game.

Bloodstealer.5978:

You say they could of been actual reward chest.. well guess what, we already have them as well as champ loots, trash loot etc …. what other reward chests do you need.

Those are items filled with random materials. Those aren’t real rewards. What really matters is stuff like the musical instruments, which actually add something fun to do in the game… but you have to pay for it, just like you have to pay for mini pets (which we used to receive for free as a birthday gift in GW1).

Bloodstealer.5978:

Of course the exchange rate has rocketed.. the in game wealth at the start was very minimal.. 2 years later its a very different animal and as such the amount of gems available with a much reduced profit avenue for the game… so of course the rates have moved as has the demand to use the exchange .. it serves two purposes – it makes money that can then further support the game and 2 – it is a money sink, which every MMO needs within its economy.

But not everyone’s in-game wealth has sky rocketed. A lot of players find themselves in a position where all their money gets sucked into the gem store, which gets more expensive by the day. And that’s part of the problem. The gold to gem ratio keeps rising, but the prices for items in the store are not adjusted. So where once they would sell a seasonal minipet for 300 gems, which was between 30 and 50 gold. Now the price in gems remains the same, but the cost in gold is way over what that mini pet is actually worth. I’m not going to pay over a 100 gold for one seasonal minipet, that’s absurd. Heck, why aren’t these obtainable in the game to begin with?

Bloodstealer.5978:

Anyone with half a brain for business understands there is always ongoing costs.. do you work for free, do you sit at your own hamster wheel to generate the power to run you PC, do you pay to keep your office warm, do you supply your own PC and equipment, do you maintain it yourself, etc, etc etc.. you think $30 a pop from pays for everything for the life of the game.. see sense please… no one needs to see the numbers and figures, its common sense.

All that doesn’t change the fact that the game lacks rewards.

Bloodstealer.5978:

After all that do you believe ANET/NCSoft to be a charity

Irrelevant. This isn’t about them making money. It’s about us as players, and our playing experience. I couldn’t care a flying Dolyak how much money they make. What I care about, is the product that I play. And right now, that product disappoints in terms of rewards. Too much is locked away in the store, and not enough is in the game.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Show me an MMO that has no grind within it .. you forget a grind is what you make it

That is bull. Games are grindy by design. The game designers are ultimately responsible for any grind that occurs, because their game encourages it.

Bloodstealer.5978:

prefer to think that certain things are there which provide me with a goal.. nothing in game has a race tag attached to it.. you get nothing for being the first to wear a new shiny.. if you want it bad enuff you either have to work for it hard or casually or .. pop your credit card number in box and take the easy win route.. then come back and complain there isn’t enough things to do in game.

If I could ‘earn’ one of those musical instruments by just playing the game, or earn a legendary, I would not be making this post. But right now, it’s all about cash, and there are very few actual rewards.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It feels as if I’m being robbed of an actual reward.

Maybe the GW2 staff felt they are robbed of their salary.

The foundation of GW2 is build upon those whales who will spend a lot of real cash so many players can play for free.

Else GW2 could just follow the subscription or freemium(VIP) model, many freebie player detest.

The only contamination that the Gem Shop introduced is the seemingly pathological drive for players to earn enough gold to never pay cash for anything from the Gem (Cash) Shop. That and the price of lux items like precursors and legendaries drive players to “grind” and find ways to maximize gold/hour.

Now the exchange was designed to raise the price of gems as long as more gems were bought then sold until gold for gems becomes attractive. It’s prime purpose is to finance the gold for gems side of the exchange with player gold from the gems for gold side of the exchange.

Would I like to see new skins in game, sure. Do I think BL tickets from chests are a rip-off, only there to obfuscate the true cost of ticket skins, sure do. Does this drive key farming, yep.

Labjax.2465:

It’s not about the items themselves; it’s about the impact those items have on the overall game experience and the community.

pray, what is the impact on game and community?

I really don’t understand all of this anti-entitlement stuff that people have been preaching these days.

We’re not saying we are owed a free expansion or anything. We’re asking for game play.

The fact of the matter is: Before cash shops existed, the people who illegally bought gold and max level characters were the ones who got a “free ride.” Apparently these days the people who work hard, farm, complete dungeons, actually PLAY THE GAME to earn stuff are the people getting stuff for “free?”

I can live with GW2’s version of a gem store in theory. It’s just hard to live with the idea that 2+ years can go by and we have not received another full armor set tied to ingame dungeons instead of tied to either straight gold or the job I do outside of GW2.

Actually, the reward system is great. If I wanted Zodiac armor I don’t have to grind some dungeon 100s of times or kill some boss over and over again. I can play whatever I want (wvw, pvp, dungeons, key farm, world boss, etc) to save up and buy it.

I think this whole grind thing is just in the mind. If you approach everything as a loading bar to a reward, everything will be just like that, a loading bar to a reward.

For example, I’m currently saving up for the Laurels of Cooperation. I don’t try to make a maximum gold per hour ratio or whatever people call it, so that I can buy it yesterday. I just play and enjoy, then after some days I’ve got enough gold to buy it. To me that’s quite similar to farming enemies for a certain item to drop. Only I’m not restricted to a certain part of the world, but can do this everywhere I’d like.

Occasionally I get a gem card too, but I’ve never done this to “bypass grind”. More like when they release something that I really like and I’m like “Ha awesome I want this nooow!”

The only thing I dislike about the gemstore, is the “limited” (more like recurring) offers. Just throw in everything all at once already. I probably would have bought some of the weapon skins had they been available earlier. I made a noble human mesmer somewhere last year, the Kasmeer staff would have been a great fit – if it were available at the time! Now the staff is available in the store again, but I haven’t bought it – my mesmer found a different staff that she became quite attached to! To properly make money off of me, things need to be available all the time so I can buy it on impulse haha. :P

Gaebriel.3754:

For example, I’m currently saving up for the Laurels of Cooperation. I don’t try to make a maximum gold per hour ratio or whatever people call it, so that I can buy it yesterday. I just play and enjoy, then after some days I’ve got enough gold to buy it. To me that’s quite similar to farming enemies for a certain item to drop. Only I’m not restricted to a certain part of the world, but can do this everywhere I’d like.

Wouldn’t it be more fun to complete an epic quest, and receive the Laurels of Cooperation at the end of it?

Absolutely! I mean the way I currently have to obtain it is not perfect, no way, but it just doesn’t annoy me/ feel grindy to me in the slightest.

In most online RPG’s the cool items are locked behind a certain boss and the only way to get it is to farm it over and over again, so that’s what I compare it with. Here I just play.

lordkrall.7241:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Nothing, but my point was that the Gem Store has contaminated the reward system.

The bigger issue here is that each BLC could have been an actual reward. Instead, it is a placeholder for a reward, that I will not be cashing in.

I don’t think it’s quite that simple. I think a lot of players might agree that the game lacks good rewards, and I’m saying that the Gem Store is the cause.

There are more game-affecting items in the store now, than there ever were in GW1. The various boosters come to mind, but worse are the instant-teleport-to-home instance items. The ore-node for your home instance, the airship tickets, the dyes that you now have to buy (they were removed as drops, and many dyes can not be crafted). The toys that give you fun skills to use in PVE, the musical instruments.

Basically everything that’s really fun about the game, has been locked in the store. If all these items were obtainable in the game itself, the game would be so much more rewarding, and there would be a lot more to do.

I don’t agree. I can quite easily get everything I want in-game by simply playing. The gem store have no bearing at all on my enjoyment of feel of rewards.

Yes a lot of people might agree with that. But at the same time a lot of people might not. And I rather sure that many of those that do agree, does not blame the gem store for it.

Probably, but in GW1 we had the ability to outright buy every single skill in the game, instead of unlocking them. Which gave a massive advantage to PvP-players.
The Mercenary Heroes also made it possible to create more or less completely invincible AI-controlled teams, which was a very large advantage that was completely unobtainable without paying real money.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And this is simply not true. They could release an expansion, and continue to pay for their development that way.

And how do you suggest they paid all their 300+ employees during those years it takes to develop the expansion?

with the profit made from making a game, like 90% of games on the market, and guild wars 1. they made more money off box sales in the first few months than they made in like a year of gem store focus.

you can best believe if the way they made money was through expansions, we would have had one by now, and the game would probably be better for it.
The main premise is not that you need the gem store to play the game, the point is the reward system is lame, and thats probably because of the gem store focus, and a desire to keep the economy a certain way that helps keep the gem store semi stable.

Breaking Bad.6241:

Actually, the reward system is great. If I wanted Zodiac armor I don’t have to grind some dungeon 100s of times or kill some boss over and over again. I can play whatever I want (wvw, pvp, dungeons, key farm, world boss, etc) to save up and buy it.

key farm is dying soon, so best believe that in the future you will be paying like 5-10 times what you used to for weapon skins, and you wont be able to get one yourself, without spending massive irl money or gold.

138 gold for 1k gems right now, so that means you got to do like 80 dungeons runs to get your zodiac armor.

but ehh, some people love buying stuff, with gold/real money, its never been an exciting way to obtain anything for me.

also gold rewards are staying the same, while the value of gems versus gold is rising.

Gaebriel.3754:

Absolutely! I mean the way I currently have to obtain it is not perfect, no way, but it just doesn’t annoy me/ feel grindy to me in the slightest.

In most online RPG’s the cool items are locked behind a certain boss and the only way to get it is to farm it over and over again, so that’s what I compare it with. Here I just play.

you are comparing it to a bad system they said they didnt plan to replicate. I would say gw1 eye of the north elite armors were better aquisition, gain some respect in an area, (via random killings, or through doing the main story) Bring back some items obtained primarily from that area, and some gold, get cool armor, which unlocks for your home instance and your charachter.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

lordkrall.7241:

And how do you suggest they paid all their 300+ employees during those years it takes to develop the expansion?

Well they’ve had over 2 years already. That’s enough time to develop two expansions, or one really big one. That’s how it worked with GW1. Right after Prophecies, they started working on Factions, and then Nightfall, and then Eye of the North.

Instead they chose to develop the Living Story, which has been of very mixed quality, and is a lot of content that is temporary. They could have used that time to expand the game with permanent content.

I doubt all the employees at Anet are working on living story because we just haven’t gotten that much content. Don’t get me wrong, I am thankful for all the free stuff we have gotten, but they’ve got to be working on something else.

Also, they probably spent some time and resources working on the Chinese release. That’s a lot of money for them, and probably more profitable than an expansion.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If all these items were obtainable in the game itself, the game would be so much more rewarding, and there would be a lot more to do.

If all these items were obtainable in the game there would be no game because they would go bankrupt.

Play the game, get gold, gold > gems, buy what you want.

kult.3465:

You are mad.

What has contaminated gw2 is a sense of entitlement.

Gem store is there to provide convenience to players, and income for devs.

No one is forcing you to use it.

A gambling system is convenient?

Well that’s a new one.

“No one is forcing you to use it.”
“Not only is the gem store purely unrequired to enjoy 100% of the games content, it doesn’t give an unfair advantage to paying players in any way shape or form.”

I may be jumping to conclusions since nobody knows if ArenaNet will get rid of the Black Lion Key farm, but certain items in the gemstore are only justified because keys can be farmed and as we all know ArenaNet is reevaluating the rewards from each of the personal story chapters. Some items are only viewed as appropriate because access to black lion chests is available with the alternative method which is the personal story. People who pay real money for gems often say that buying keys with real money is a bad gamble. Even people in the ArenaNet guild with the ArenaNet tag have been caught key farming, it’s that bad. The OP brings up the gemstore’s Black Lion Chests as an argument for too much gemstore influence on the game’s rewards, if the key farm is indeed dealt with, should items exclusive to it remain to those who can afford keys?

Items such as:

• Black Lion Salvage Kit

In GW1 we had a special salvage kit that could remove inscriptions and runes from items without destroying them at a 100% chance. It was a game item that costed skill points and materials to craft IN THE GAME. GW2? Gemstore item and it’s a rip off at that.

Still doesn’t take out the fact that ALL salvage kits in the game right now fall short to the returns of a Black Lion Salvage Kit. That isn’t forcing people to play with Black Lion Chests/spend cash on the gemstore?

• Boosters of any kind and the Communal Boost Bonfire

As far as I know there is not a single consumable in the game that grants 50% crafting EXP, 50% karma, 50% magic find, etc. Nothing can be cooked up by chefs, no concoction can be made by artificers, there is no way to make these items in the game nor a consumable that stacks like these items with food and utilities like the boosters can. Putting combat boosters like Strength, Armor, Speed, etc boosters at an advantage over consumables that can be acquired in the game. Once key farming is gone, these advantages should leave the gemstore. Yes, they are advantages even if it’s a 5% strength booster. When the OP spoke of the gemstore digging it’s muddy fingers deep into the game’s reward system, I believe her criteria fits items such as these that give advantages beyond anything that can be acquired in the game, taking away from the potential of the crafting system and it’s benefits.

I say that when food has 15% EXP gain, magic find buffs when buffed with a boon, “Kill Streak-like mechanics” whenever one kills an enemy, etc. The boosters are gemstore items and they give better buffs to those who pay real money for Black Lion Keys. They can be purchased for in-game gold, but who is going to pay OVER 20 GOLD for a single booster?

Strength, speed, etc boosters cannot be bought from the gemstore. They come from Black Lion Chests, so even if one wanted to buy them with gold they’ll still have to gamble it on keys when 100 gems = +13 gold.

• Metabolic primer, Utility primer, and Revive orb

The primers speak for themselves. The revive orb is reminiscent of a craftable consumable in GW1 called the Scroll of Resurrection in which it can revive playable characters in battle at a chance of getting kitten again with revive sickness, 25% HP in GW1 with death penalty still active. Again, the potential of the crafting system is chipped at to make an extra buck on the gemstore.

Buffs and consumables should not be sold on a cash shop. The primers extend the benefits from food and utilities by 12 hours, that itself is not a buff but should be viewed as such when the maximum duration of some consumables in-game is 1 hour per consumption. Could be viewed as a convenience item if it weren’t for the fact that food and utility consumables are used in battle, unlike the harvesting tools which offer a convenience to those who want to harvest, nothing to do with combat, or the salvage-o-matics which offer convenience to those who want to salvage, again, nothing to do with combat. Both of the previous items do not make money back without investing decades of dedicated time into the game, so no big deal. But the primers offer convenience in combat situations and that is a line that should not be crossed, even it takes just as many decades to make the money back from buying them with gold and using them on the most expensive food and utility consumables.

Would you be happier if the gem store skins dropped as loot as well?

DarkWasp.7291:

I really don’t understand all of this anti-entitlement stuff that people have been preaching these days.

We’re not saying we are owed a free expansion or anything. We’re asking for game play.

There is gameplay, the LS adds it. The issue seems more like your expectation for the game does not match Arenanet expectation for their game. Personally, I don’t blame Arenanet. When Guild wars 2 was released, it was release with a lot of content, the problem was the very vocal decided to burn through that content within a week and half by reaching 80 and began demanding more content. The was actually a thread asking when the next expansion will come out within 2 weeks of release. You cannot compete with that.

Hence why they decided to go to the LS story route, it adds something to the game and the ones interested are going to log in, once every 2 weeks versus 1 month every 1 year.

tl;dr

Your expectations for the game are entirely different from ARenanet’s expectations. Either you have to accept guild wars 2 for what it is or hope that Arenanet changes or move on. Arenanet has all the keys and the numbers seem to favor them, so I doubt they will change.

Eric.6109:

pray, what is the impact on game and community?

I think Jovel covered some of the ways in which its influence is suspect.

Also, the segmentation of mindset is an example all on its own and is disturbingly apparent in this thread, with only one page so far; differences in attitude concerning players who spend a lot of money in the store vs. players who don’t. One person went so far as to say that people who buy gems are the ones “supporting the game” and the rest are not.

But the main issue as I see it is that the “experience” of buying gems and “supporting the game” feels separate from the “experience” of playing the game. It is as if avoiding spending real money by utilizing the exchange is a mini-game all of its own, the reason being that many purchases are no more distinguishable or desirable than any other expensive items you could find for purchase on the Trading Post.

Furthermore, as others have pointed out, a lot (if not most) of the new “item” releases come out through the store. And although it’s understandable from a “Anet needs to pay the bills” point-of-view, it makes players without overflowing wallets feel like they must do one of two things to stay connected with these game additions: 1) Pull out their wallet anyway or 2) Hardcore farm hundreds of gold to funnel it into the exchange (sometimes for a limited-time item).

Neither of which feel like an option to “play” the game. That’s just a few things that come to mind. There may be more that I’m not thinking of.

I don’t accept the premise of the original post. There’s nothing in the gem store that anyone needs to play the game. Black Lion Chests have always been lotto tickets and anyone who thinks otherwise hasn’t been paying attention.

Besides, anything dropped by those chests can be purchased from the Gem Shop directly or from the Trading Post. If you have 600 gems to get Belinda’s greatsword, you can afford to buy over 30 BL skins from the TP. Chaos skins are all available for under 100g, i.e. about 1,100 gems if buying with cash.

I have yet to spend cash on gems and I know I’m supporting the game and also able to afford some (but not all) of the skins and other luxuries.

kult.3465:

You are mad.

What has contaminated gw2 is a sense of entitlement.

Gem store is there to provide convenience to players, and income for devs.

No one is forcing you to use it.

I totally agree with kult.
And just fyi, keys are given for map completion as well…