Guild Wars 2

plasmacutter.2709:

Just because the houses sell, does not mean the market is not dysfunctional.

Every month it seems there are articles lamenting that the vast majority of bay-area 20-somethings that should be settling down in their homes to raise families are still with their parents, because they can’t afford a home, or are struggling to pay 2k rents, because the prevailing mortgage rate, credit requirements, and required down payments are that frekin’ high, allowing renters to utterly gouge.

Just because some people are paying the obscene prices does not make a price-fixed economy justified, and does not change the fact that the victims of such manipulation are not just those who can and do end up paying more, but those who go unserved because they simply can’t afford the gouged price.

Those 20-somethings could move elsewhere with cheaper houses, right? Except that they want to live in the Bay area, many I’m sure for excellent reasons. Unfortunately, there are more people that want to live in the Bay area then there are houses for them, I’ve known several people on the East Coast who would move there if they could afford it. Which sounds like a classic problem of demand being higher then supply, so price rises to the point where demand (people who want a house AND can afford it at its outrageous CA price) meets supply. Same with buying Ferrari’s, which are probably a better analogy to cosmetic game gear, demand = people who want it AND can afford it, not just people who want it.

A functional market doesn’t necessarily make all its participants happy, it just matches supply with demand.

Who says that precursors and other legendary mats SHOULD have reliable sources? They aren’t required for any content. They are entirely optional. Legendary’s should only be for a small minority of exceptionally skilled, dedicated, or lucky players. As it is, I really notice someone who walks by with a Twilight on their back. The players who own one are few and far between. I don’t own a legendary, but I look forward to having a truly special item when/if I obtain one. Dilluting obtaining a legendary into merely a lukewarm achievement is highly undesirable in my opinion.

plasmacutter.2709:

The average income of a person in the bay area is NOT 7 times the median income of middle-america.

Just because the houses sell, does not mean the market is not dysfunctional.

I agree. However, the dysfunctional part of the equation is the buyer.

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

Like I’m gonna believe that till you fix the lodestone imbalance!

The Blue Ace.2850:

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

Like I’m gonna believe that till you fix the lodestone imbalance!

What, because high prices are caused purely by speculation?

I tend to believe that the biggest reason for those high prices are simply supply/demand….

Ursan.7846:

The Blue Ace.2850:

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

Like I’m gonna believe that till you fix the lodestone imbalance!

What, because high prices are caused purely by speculation?

I tend to believe that the biggest reason for those high prices are simply supply/demand….

Oh I’m sorry, I thought mr john smith promised to increase the supply of lodestone drops based on lack of supply.

You know, Like he promised in this post!

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-state-of-the-guild-wars-2-economy/

We’ve noticed several markets that are clearly out of sync in terms of supply and demand. It isn’t interesting or fun to have a market flooded with items that contain very little value, so we’re making adjustments to the game every day. Players can expect to see these markets even out over time.

How are these prices considered balanced?!

The Blue Ace.2850:

Ursan.7846:

The Blue Ace.2850:

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

Like I’m gonna believe that till you fix the lodestone imbalance!

What, because high prices are caused purely by speculation?

I tend to believe that the biggest reason for those high prices are simply supply/demand….

Oh I’m sorry, I thought mr john smith promised to increase the supply of lodestone drops based on lack of supply.

You know, Like he promised in this post!

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-state-of-the-guild-wars-2-economy/

I’m confused. What does this have to do with your statement that the current lodestone prices makes you not believe in Mr. Smith’s statement that GW2’s economy, is “less effectively manipulated” than most other games.

Prices are high/different because of differing supply/demand. Charged Lodestones are used in much more desirable recipes than Crystal Lodestones.

I’m struggling to understand your logic here…

The Blue Ace.2850:

Ursan.7846:

The Blue Ace.2850:

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

Like I’m gonna believe that till you fix the lodestone imbalance!

What, because high prices are caused purely by speculation?

I tend to believe that the biggest reason for those high prices are simply supply/demand….

Oh I’m sorry, I thought mr john smith promised to increase the supply of lodestone drops based on lack of supply.

You know, Like he promised in this post!

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-state-of-the-guild-wars-2-economy/

We’ve noticed several markets that are clearly out of sync in terms of supply and demand. It isn’t interesting or fun to have a market flooded with items that contain very little value, so we’re making adjustments to the game every day. Players can expect to see these markets even out over time.

How are these prices considered balanced?!

Did you even read the blogpost? lol

Ursan.7846:

The Blue Ace.2850:

Ursan.7846:

The Blue Ace.2850:

John Smith.4610:

GW2’s TP is by a wide margin less effectively manipulated than the other games mentioned in this thread.

Like I’m gonna believe that till you fix the lodestone imbalance!

What, because high prices are caused purely by speculation?

I tend to believe that the biggest reason for those high prices are simply supply/demand….

Oh I’m sorry, I thought mr john smith promised to increase the supply of lodestone drops based on lack of supply.

You know, Like he promised in this post!

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-state-of-the-guild-wars-2-economy/

I’m confused. What does this have to do with your statement that the current lodestone prices makes you not believe in Mr. Smith’s statement that GW2’s economy, is “less effectively manipulated” than most other games.

Prices are high because of supply/demand. So I’m struggling to understand your logic here…

Because of the lack of supply which a.net should of fixed by now, the few stones we do have in the market are being manipulated, in the space of 2 days I’ve seen the price shoot up by 30 silver! Meaning people who worked hard to acquire enough gold to buy them have to spent more gold, because they can’t get them from drops because they’re so impossibly hard to get in the field and marketers are taking advantage of that!

The Blue Ace.2850:

the few stones we do have in the market are being manipulated

You don’t know this.

The Blue Ace.2850:

in the space of 2 day I’ve seen the price shoot up by 30 silver!

Well yes. If you look at GW2spidy and look at charged lodestones, you’ll see a decline in supply from 2 days ago (~600 to ~400) while the demand still remains the same. That will increase the price. Supply/demand.

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/24305

Ursan.7846:

The Blue Ace.2850:

the few stones we do have in the market are being manipulated

You don’t know this.

The Blue Ace.2850:

in the space of 2 day I’ve seen the price shoot up by 30 silver!

Well yes. If you look at GW2spidy and look at charged lodestones, you’ll see a decline in supply from 2 days ago (~600 to ~400). That will increase the price. Supply/demand.

I don’t know that theres a lack of charged lodestones in the market?!?!!?
And they are being manipulated, why do you think they jumped in price by 10% of their value.

Take closer look at this screenshot!!!

The Blue Ace.2850:

I don’t know that theres a lack of charged lodestones in the market?!?!!?

Take closer look at this screenshot!!!

Stop twisting my words.

1. You do know there’s a lack of charged lodestones in the market
2. You don’t know if it’s caused by “manipulation”.

High prices doesn’t necessary mean it’s caused by manipulation. 1. doesn’t mean 2.

The Blue Ace.2850:

why do you think they jumped in price by 10% of their value.

…Because their supply seems to have dropped slightly, while the demand has stayed the same. Supply/demand.

Or you don’t believe that prices can simply increase due to supply/demand or something? Is that it? Any price increase must be because of MARKET MANIPULATION?

John Smith.4610:

I did not promise to do anything to lodestones, nor did that blog have anything to do with lodestones.

You were talking about balancing the market by adding more ways to get items if they were lacking places to get them in game.

And based on how many threads there are on the forums about this topic and how much they cost lodestones are clearly not balanced in this game.

The Blue Ace.2850:

John Smith.4610:

I did not promise to do anything to lodestones, nor did that blog have anything to do with lodestones.

You were talking about balancing the market by adding more ways to get items if they were lacking places to get them in game.

And based on how many threads there are on the forums about this topic and how much they cost lodestones are clearly not balanced in this game.

So what if the number of mobs in the world that drop moltens is the same as charged?

They’re clearly not lacking. One lodestone is simply in higher demand than the other.

What is the confusion here? They have an economist to look into the TP and the economy in general. The game economy is based on supply & demand which, like any other market, is occasionally manipulated by one or more rich people and/or exploits .

(how can someone exploit the real world economy? Oh I don’t know, perhaps securitization of trash mortgages which are then rated AAA and sold to pension plans?)(http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/fallout-financial-crisis/financial-crisis-101-cdos-explained).

We all know precursors are insane right now, and ANet has mentioned the topic several times so they are aware of it and at the very least investigating ways to make them more accessible. As far as other materials, some are used in popular recipes (Charged Lodestone) and others aren’t (Glacial Lodestone). My guess would be that ANet’s method of addressing this, if it even thinks it’s worth addressing, would be to release some recipes that use the less valuable lodestones and stop releasing recipes that use the more valuable lodestones. No matter what is done, some materials will always be more valuable than others; in other words, don’t hold your breath for the day when all T6 mats have values within 1% of each other lol.

Xynn.2748:

What is the confusion here? They have an economist to look into the TP and the economy in general. The game economy is based on supply & demand which, like any other market, is occasionally manipulated by one or more rich people and/or exploits .

(how can someone exploit the real world economy? Oh I don’t know, perhaps securitization of trash mortgages which are then rated AAA and sold to pension plans?)(http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/fallout-financial-crisis/financial-crisis-101-cdos-explained).

We all know precursors are insane right now, and ANet has mentioned the topic several times so they are aware of it and at the very least investigating ways to make them more accessible. As far as other materials, some are used in popular recipes (Charged Lodestone) and others aren’t (Glacial Lodestone). My guess would be that ANet’s method of addressing this, if it even thinks it’s worth addressing, would be to release some recipes that use the less valuable lodestones and stop releasing recipes that use the more valuable lodestones. No matter what is done, some materials will always be more valuable than others; in other words, don’t hold your breath for the day when all T6 mats have values within 1% of each other lol.

That’s what I find hilarious when people want precursors to be cheap. Making them cheaper will only increase the demand for T6 mats and lodes even further. Yes, it’ll be harder to manipulate but it’s still going to be hella expensive.

John Smith.4610:

The Blue Ace.2850:

John Smith.4610:

I did not promise to do anything to lodestones, nor did that blog have anything to do with lodestones.

You were talking about balancing the market by adding more ways to get items if they were lacking places to get them in game.

And based on how many threads there are on the forums about this topic and how much they cost lodestones are clearly not balanced in this game.

Oh I’m sorry, please tell me what I was talking about in my blog. I didn’t mean to interrupt you, continue.

Again from your blog

“We’ve noticed several markets that are clearly out of sync in terms of supply and demand. It isn’t interesting or fun to have a market flooded with items that contain very little value, so we’re making adjustments to the game every day. Players can expect to see these markets even out over time.”

Just answer me this john, charged lodestones, does a.net consider this out of sync or not?

Because there have be many threads about this topic whether it stirs around manipulators, lack of supply or one lodestone being higher than the other.

I was making the point that you guys are working to balance the TP, on the topic of lodestones, I do not think they are, at all.

Your currently fixing precursors which are like 500 gold give or take,
And yet some people think that 430 gold for 100 charged lodestones is acceptable, what logic is that?!

Vol.5241:

Xynn.2748:

What is the confusion here? They have an economist to look into the TP and the economy in general. The game economy is based on supply & demand which, like any other market, is occasionally manipulated by one or more rich people and/or exploits .

(how can someone exploit the real world economy? Oh I don’t know, perhaps securitization of trash mortgages which are then rated AAA and sold to pension plans?)(http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/fallout-financial-crisis/financial-crisis-101-cdos-explained).

We all know precursors are insane right now, and ANet has mentioned the topic several times so they are aware of it and at the very least investigating ways to make them more accessible. As far as other materials, some are used in popular recipes (Charged Lodestone) and others aren’t (Glacial Lodestone). My guess would be that ANet’s method of addressing this, if it even thinks it’s worth addressing, would be to release some recipes that use the less valuable lodestones and stop releasing recipes that use the more valuable lodestones. No matter what is done, some materials will always be more valuable than others; in other words, don’t hold your breath for the day when all T6 mats have values within 1% of each other lol.

That’s what I find hilarious when people want precursors to be cheap. Making them cheaper will only increase the demand for T6 mats and lodes even further. Yes, it’ll be harder to manipulate but it’s still going to be hella expensive.

Actually I don’t want the legendarys easy to get, I just want them to be more about the game and less about gold.

Oh and making the lodestones equal to each other would be good too.

I for one find +400g for charged lodestones acceptable, because it’s what the market demands and something that people are obviously willing to pay for.

If somehow I have all the lodestones in the world, and I find a buyer who is willing to pay 2G, and another at 2.1g, and several more all the way up to 4g…why would I sell it to the 2g buyer?

Seriously, you’re just being lazy and want your legendary ASAP. You need to work hard for your items.

I think the problem with lodestones is that there is a serious imbalance in the number of applications for each type. Crystal Lodestones, for instance, are only used for a smattering of runes and the Reaver of the Mists (and even then, a mere 20). Meanwhile, Charged Lodestones are used for Infinite Light, Mjolnir, Gift of Lightning, and every Foefire weapon in large quantities. Of course they are highly demanded by comparison. I don’t think releasing a bunch of new lodestones into the market is going to help anything, but what ANet should absolutely do is work to balance the supply relative to how much demand they want the item to have. Did they intend for Charged Lodestones to be used for so many things at a market level? Or was it done that way based on ‘flavor’, which in turn dictated the market value?

John Smith.4610:

The Blue Ace.2850:

John Smith.4610:

The Blue Ace.2850:

John Smith.4610:

I did not promise to do anything to lodestones, nor did that blog have anything to do with lodestones.

You were talking about balancing the market by adding more ways to get items if they were lacking places to get them in game.

And based on how many threads there are on the forums about this topic and how much they cost lodestones are clearly not balanced in this game.

Oh I’m sorry, please tell me what I was talking about in my blog. I didn’t mean to interrupt you, continue.

Again from your blog

“We’ve noticed several markets that are clearly out of sync in terms of supply and demand. It isn’t interesting or fun to have a market flooded with items that contain very little value, so we’re making adjustments to the game every day. Players can expect to see these markets even out over time.”

Just answer me this john, charged lodestones, does a.net consider this out of sync or not?

Because there have be many threads about this topic whether it stirs around manipulators, lack of supply or one lodestone being higher than the other.

I was making the point that you guys are working to balance the TP, on the topic of lodestones, I do not think they are, at all.

Your currently fixing precursors which are like 500 gold give or take,
And yet some people think that 430 gold for 100 charged lodestones is acceptable, what logic is that?!

I find this post disrespectful and rude. Until you learn to stop and think about what you’re asking, take in the information you have and make a logical question I’ll not be replying.

Thanks for dodging my question, I’ll be leaving now, good day.

The Blue Ace.2850:

Again from your blog

“We’ve noticed several markets that are clearly out of sync in terms of supply and demand. It isn’t interesting or fun to have a market flooded with items that contain very little value, so we’re making adjustments to the game every day. Players can expect to see these markets even out over time.”

Just answer me this john, charged lodestones, does a.net consider this out of sync or not?

Because there have be many threads about this topic whether it stirs around manipulators, lack of supply or one lodestone being higher than the other.

I was making the point that you guys are working to balance the TP, on the topic of lodestones, I do not think they are, at all.

Your currently fixing precursors which are like 500 gold give or take,
And yet some people think that 430 gold for 100 charged lodestones is acceptable, what logic is that?!

Try to remember the context of that blog post before you start bandying it around in an attempt to prove your point… this context is reflected in the second sentence of the first paragraph (you know, the one you didn’t highlight).

It isn’t interesting or fun to have a market flooded with items that contain very little value, so we’re making adjustments to the game every day.

The blog was written at a time not long after launch when there was a massive oversupply in some of the basic crafting materials and ArenaNet were introducing temporary recipes to drain away the excess supply. It has very little to do with the reverse situation (excess demand) other than the generalised statements which you’re trying to pin your whole case on.

John Smith.4610:

I find this post disrespectful and rude. Until you learn to stop and think about what you’re asking, take in the information you have and make a logical question I’ll not be replying.

To be quite fair, there are a lot of things that come off as disrespectful and rude to the player-base that is only addressed by continual vague statements about how it will be changed in the future, e.g. pre-cursors that dev’s continually pointed out when the high price was around 200G that they were too high, and not several have tripled, or even quadrupled in price and this was months ago. Lodestones, Etco’s and t6 mats follow the same venue UNTIL the bots come into play, which is hilarious.

The reality is, regardless of whether his post would have been kind and put in a thoughtful manner, we would not have received an actual answer to his question as opposed to more vaguery about something that could happen.

It’s really annoying and responding to someone who is being more aggressive than most posters puts those off who are responding kindly with equally legitimate concerns and questions.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

John Smith.4610:

I find this post disrespectful and rude. Until you learn to stop and think about what you’re asking, take in the information you have and make a logical question I’ll not be replying.

To be quite fair, there are a lot of things that come off as disrespectful and rude to the player-base that is only addressed by continual vague statements about how it will be changed in the future, e.g. pre-cursors that dev’s continually pointed out when the high price was around 200G that they were too high, and not several have tripled, or even quadrupled in price and this was months ago. Lodestones, Etco’s and t6 mats follow the same venue UNTIL the bots come into play, which is hilarious.

The reality is, regardless of whether his post would have been kind and put in a thoughtful manner, we would not have received an actual answer to his question as opposed to more vaguery about something that could happen.

It’s really annoying.

Being vague isn’t rude or disrespectful.

It’s called being vague.

It’s like you saying being happy is being disrespectful.

I want Volcanus. It takes a lot of cores for that. I also want Azzure Flame. Different cores.

Cores are expensive.

sigh Kitten.

Do I pay attention to the TP? Nah, not really. I keep an eye on it, sure, and when I get closer to a goal, I may look more closely, meanwhile, I’m out there in CoF getting moltens. I’m saving my cash. Oh…. and why don’t I have more charged cores / lodes? ‘Cause CoE kicks me somewhere uncomfortable and I haven’t invested the time in getting good at something that is hard. Yet. I’ve started trading the glacials I get out of HotW with guildmates for the moltens they get out of CoF because I don’t need them for anything I’m working on.

I seriously wonder when I see complaints about drop rate on lodestones, how much time people are spending in the dungeons where they drop? Open world farming as is common in most MMOs where you can farm a mob for a type of drop just doesn’t work in GW2….

Play smarter friends, not harder.

And please, let a blog post that was relevant to the state of the economy in SEPTEMBER refer to the state of the economy then…. don’t try to read too much into how it applies to now. September had a great deal more emergent markets, a glut of undervallued common materials and problems that are not the same as what the market faces today.

Vol.5241:

Being vague isn’t rude or disrespectful.

It’s called being vague.

It’s like you saying being happy is being disrespectful.

When there are legitimate concerns and the continual response is just wait for months on end, it’s goes past just being vague, and the redundancy of the claim comes off as rude, and yes disrespectful to a player and their time.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Vol.5241:

Being vague isn’t rude or disrespectful.

It’s called being vague.

It’s like you saying being happy is being disrespectful.

When there are legitimate concerns and the continual response is just wait for months on end, it’s goes past just being vague, and the redundancy of the claim comes off as rude, and yes disrespectful to a player and their time.

The problem is that sometimes they just can’t give more information… e.g. they can’t talk much about the scavenger hunt for precursors because it’s still in the design stage, or in the case of Mr Smith, talking too much about specifics could trigger waves of speculation.

Even without an obvious reason for being vague, it’s not being rude or disrespectful if they don’t want to talk about specifics. It may be frustrating for those who want specific answers, but that’s not the same thing.

You need to realize that John cannot answer questions like “What do you think about the lodestone market?” The reason he cannot is because what he says has an extremely significant effect upon the market itself. If he says he thinks they are too expensive, people will sell-sell-sell before they are made more accessible and thus cheaper. If he says they are too cheap, people will buy-buy-buy before their drops get nerfed. See the dilemma? He is, almost assuredly, bound by a specialized NDA that totally disallows him from talking about that sort of thing with the community. It makes perfect sense to me why he doesn’t answer those questions.

Vol.5241:

Being vague isn’t rude or disrespectful.

It’s called being vague.

It’s like you saying being happy is being disrespectful.

It is all about context.
Go to the next funeral and tell anyone that you are happy. That is disrespectful.

As far as the real life market manipulations go…
In real life,
we’re not all forced to trade through the same market device like TP
distance is a factor because of shipping fees (in TP, it is not. This distance factor helps create multiple markets)
cartels and monopolies are illegal

So while there is some manipulation in real life, a handful of people can’t control a market nearly as easily thanks to laws.

Navzar.2938:

As far as the real life market manipulations go…
In real life,
we’re not all forced to trade through the same market device like TP
distance is a factor because of shipping fees (in TP, it is not. This distance factor helps create multiple markets)
cartels and monopolies are illegal

So while there is some manipulation in real life, a handful of people can’t control a market nearly as easily thanks to laws.

Hah. Or so you’d think. There’s many cases of monopolies in real-life.

Cable providers are a great example I can think of off the top of my head. They agree not to compete in certain markets. Where I live, I am forced to go to TWC for my TV needs because there is absolutely no other major companies that services my area (Comcast/Verizon…)

The Feds can’t bust TWC because it’s not a national monopoly. But for my purposes, it’s the only choice I have.

There’s many, many other examples.

Astraea.6075:

The problem is that sometimes they just can’t give more information… e.g. they can’t talk much about the scavenger hunt for precursors because it’s still in the design stage, or in the case of Mr Smith, talking too much about specifics could trigger waves of speculation.

Even without an obvious reason for being vague, it’s not being rude or disrespectful if they don’t want to talk about specifics. It may be frustrating for those who want specific answers, but that’s not the same thing.

Rising Dusk.2408:

You need to realize that John cannot answer questions like “What do you think about the lodestone market?” The reason he cannot is because what he says has an extremely significant effect upon the market itself. If he says he thinks they are too expensive, people will sell-sell-sell before they are made more accessible and thus cheaper. If he says they are too cheap, people will buy-buy-buy before their drops get nerfed. See the dilemma? He is, almost assuredly, bound by a specialized NDA that totally disallows him from talking about that sort of thing with the community. It makes perfect sense to me why he doesn’t answer those questions.

Exactly, so he shouldn’t have said, “I’ll reply when you stop being rude”, if he isn’t going to answer the question regardless of how it’s asked. That was the point. Otherwise he’s just jerking the inquiree around.

Death Reincarnated.3570:

It’s resilient because it has employed Mr. DR to manage its bank accounts.

DR = Death Reincarnated?

Well, if it helps, why not? After all, this isn’t either economics research nor the Ney York Stock exchange. It’s a game, and games have their own rules.

Death Reincarnated.3570:

A single ‘actor’ can infact be a group working together. A single person would not be able to manipulate the market to a large extend (unless that person was a millionaire), however, a “mafia” type group could potentially do so.

Maybe. But beside the ‘botting mafia’ (The Donbot?) I still haven’t seen evidence that this is happening to any significant extent.

~MRA

Navzar.2938:

As far as the real life market manipulations go…
In real life,
we’re not all forced to trade through the same market device like TP
distance is a factor because of shipping fees (in TP, it is not. This distance factor helps create multiple markets)
cartels and monopolies are illegal

So while there is some manipulation in real life, a handful of people can’t control a market nearly as easily thanks to laws.

So … are there any Black Lion Company NPCs I can threaten/bribe for better deals on the Trading Post?

John Smith.4610:

In the last 24 hours 2193 Lodestones have been traded. The amount of sell orders on the TP doesn’t necessarily represent supply.

Is there any chance this sort of information will get integrated into the TP window? This is the sort of market data on items that would dispel theories about massive market manipulation, as well as letting players understand demand for items better.

Khisanth.2948:

So … are there any Black Lion Company NPCs I can threaten/bribe for better deals on the Trading Post?

I know this was in jest, but I would totally do a quest that the reward was a 1 hour reduction of the TP fee-upon-sale from 10% to 9%… Not because I’m a trader who could make 2-digit gold on that, but because it would be just awsome from a storytelling/roleplay perspective.

Lion’s Arch is a city of Thieves and Murderers. It’d be good fun to a have a story about pure thuggery set in that landscape once in a while.

John Smith.4610:

In the last 24 hours 2193 Lodestones have been traded. The amount of sell orders on the TP doesn’t necessarily represent supply.

In my experience the amount of product bound up in standing sell orders is nearly irrelevant to supply.

There is hardly an Item I’ve EVER purchased with a buy order (rather than a buy now)that hasn’t resulted in a transaction within minutes of my posting it. Be it for Abyss dye, mystic coins, or armor runes I needed. post for a penny more for small items, or a couple silver more for larger fare and… Wait for it… BAM! Bought. Moving on.

Onthe other side of the equation, I’ve posted heaps of mithril ore 2-3c ABOVE a standing sell order supply of 20,000+… and picked up my profits the next day. That entire stock sold through (or was withdrawn temporarily), mine were bought out, and then thousands more entered the market back below my price in the space of a day.

If John Smith were to wander by with an offhanded moment (hint-hint ) for how many mithril ore changed hands in the last 24 hours, I would count on that number being 5 digits. The ragged edge where that item’s price fluctuates must vibrate like a plucked guitar string.

I really believe the vast majority of supply is in the hands of of people who are either hitting “OMG Sell Right Now” or controled by people so deeply wired into things like GWSpidey that they react the instant one new copper appears in the sale offers.

The reaction speed of this market is insane, and it causes bizzare things to happen.

@ Nike: This pretty much correlates with my own experiences using the TP. Admittedly, I haven’t been buying precursors, but even with Lodestones it doesn’t take long to get my (small) buy orders filled.

My 2c.

We have three varaibles – demand, supply and quality (the last one is based on what you can do with the item, i.e. for how many things you can use it). Now using the TP picture of the lodestone provided by The Blue Ace.2850, one can draw a relationship between demand/supply and presume that the higher the demand, whilst lower supply, price will increase. This “hypothesis” breaks down when we introduce another variable, quality, to the equation. This can be clearly observed by taking into account how many recipies can be made using the two lodestones below:

Crystal Ldestone – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystal_Lodestone
Corrupted Lodestone – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupted_Lodestone

One can clearly see that due to more options available for using the ‘Corrupted Lodestone’ the price will be higher. This quality factor is then echoed further on as a particualr product of utilising a lodestone may be more valuable and more demanded, whilst taking into account supply of other co-products to produce the next item, and so forth.

Therefore, it is because of the quality factor that there lies a disparity between the costs in lodestones, not just due to supply/demand. If something has high quality and low demand then the price would be much higher than that same item were to have low quality.

All of this is taken into account when managing how (often) the items can be obtained. Looking into the cost of Charged Lodestone, IMO, making it more acquirable would not drive the cost down much because players know that it is a high quality item. What it would do, however, is allow more players to obtain particular items down the track.

Hope this makes sense

As an Ex EVE online player, i wish the market was more visable so i could make better educated risks and rewards on the TP. I don’t understand how people find this so hard to understand. Everything being equal and rare adds to the costs of an item as does one item being more useful. Put that together and some items are worth (what people are willing to pay) than others. pretty simple really.

Death Reincarnated.3570:

My 2c.

We have three varaibles – demand, supply and quality (the last one is based on what you can do with the item, i.e. for how many things you can use it). Now using the TP picture of the lodestone provided by The Blue Ace.2850, one can draw a relationship between demand/supply and presume that the higher the demand, whilst lower supply, price will increase. This “hypothesis” breaks down when we introduce another variable, quality, to the equation. This can be clearly observed by taking into account how many recipies can be made using the two lodestones below:

Crystal Ldestone – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystal_Lodestone
Corrupted Lodestone – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupted_Lodestone

One can clearly see that due to more options available for using the ‘Corrupted Lodestone’ the price will be higher. This quality factor is then echoed further on as a particualr product of utilising a lodestone may be more valuable and more demanded, whilst taking into account supply of other co-products to produce the next item, and so forth.

Therefore, it is because of the quality factor that there lies a disparity between the costs in lodestones, not just due to supply/demand. If something has high quality and low demand then the price would be much higher than that same item were to have low quality.

All of this is taken into account when managing how (often) the items can be obtained. Looking into the cost of Charged Lodestone, IMO, making it more acquirable would not drive the cost down much because players know that it is a high quality item. What it would do, however, is allow more players to obtain particular items down the track.

Hope this makes sense

There are two ways to alleviate this:

The most obvious is to increase the supply of the more heavily used item. The more recipes call for it, the higher the drop rate should be in proportion to others.

The second would be to reduce the recipe requirements for these to lower the demand.

Increasing the drop rate to be proportional to the difference in demand would most certainly lower the price.

Kozai.8269:

plasmacutter.2709:

Just because the houses sell, does not mean the market is not dysfunctional.

Every month it seems there are articles lamenting that the vast majority of bay-area 20-somethings that should be settling down in their homes to raise families are still with their parents, because they can’t afford a home, or are struggling to pay 2k rents, because the prevailing mortgage rate, credit requirements, and required down payments are that frekin’ high, allowing renters to utterly gouge.

Just because some people are paying the obscene prices does not make a price-fixed economy justified, and does not change the fact that the victims of such manipulation are not just those who can and do end up paying more, but those who go unserved because they simply can’t afford the gouged price.

Those 20-somethings could move elsewhere with cheaper houses, right? Except that they want to live in the Bay area, many I’m sure for excellent reasons. Unfortunately, there are more people that want to live in the Bay area then there are houses for them, I’ve known several people on the East Coast who would move there if they could afford it. Which sounds like a classic problem of demand being higher then supply, so price rises to the point where demand (people who want a house AND can afford it at its outrageous CA price) meets supply. Same with buying Ferrari’s, which are probably a better analogy to cosmetic game gear, demand = people who want it AND can afford it, not just people who want it.

A functional market doesn’t necessarily make all its participants happy, it just matches supply with demand.

The bay is where these 20-somethings can get a job, the rest of the country treats new college grads like lepers. They have nowhere to go, and are certainly not staying where 80k/yr marks the poverty line out of “choice”.

The (dry and neutral) economic definition of “functional” is the fact that it exists and people trade in it. Indeed, economies in the middle ages based on slave-trades and serfs were classified as “functional” despite utterly crushing any modicum of human rights and dignity.

Economics is a tool to be utilized (for good or ill), but many people, like yourself, seems to think it has a “goal” of perpetuating unregulated markets or “efficiency”.

What it actually does is provide the mathematical and behavioral modeling tools to produce effective policy to meet a desired effect.

That effect can be to:
A – foster domestic industrial growth and independence (Hamilton’s trade policies against britain after the US revolution)

B – increase competition, consumer, and labor rights (Anti-trust law breaking up too-big-to-fail companies)

D – crush the middle class and hourly wages (Reversing hamiltonian policies and adopting free trade agreements with nations that don’t respect human rights or the environment)

E – Destroy Inner Cities (game states against one another by threatening mass layoffs against the populace to force corporate taxes to zero)

Economics was leveraged as a science in each of these cases.

I’m including this to show that the question is not “is the market ’functioning”, it’s “is the market functioning in the desired manner”. In the same way most people (well, those with a soul and any sense of decency, anyway) don’t think the current situation with “the lost generation” in the bay area is the desired outcome, I don’t think a game promised to reward people for just playing is meeting this goal if the majority of the playerbase can’t access anything more interesting than the same generic skin they’ve seen for 80 prevous levels

Back to what John was not wanting to answer:

John, we have ANet saying precursors are too expensive, but we have the lodestone prices pushing the mat-price of some exotics, which don’t have the relevancy advantages ANet promised to legendaries, into the quad-digits.

The issue with certain mat price inflation is not just related to the lodestone recipes. The scaling of loot with character rather than zone level is causing T2-T4 to rapidly rise as the population becomes top-heavy.

I’d love to see an in-depth blog post examining these phenomena and ANet’s actual targets for these. It seems more than a bit off to have ANet’s stated “end all be all” be less expensive than some crafted exotics.

Most of the complaints here can be summed up by one of the following:

1) Player has little to no understanding of how markets or Supply vs. Demand work.

2) Player feels entitled to the best items in game, and complains when they can’t purchase high demand materials for cheap.

For point #1, that can be fixed by people reading posts like Death Reincarnated made. I do believe that over time, the more people that come to understanding the GW2 market, the less complaints there will be overall.

And unfortunately, there’s no fix for point #2…

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Most of the complaints here can be summed up by one of the following:

1) Player has little to no understanding of how markets or Supply vs. Demand work.

2) Player feels entitled to the best items in game, and complains when they can’t purchase high demand materials for cheap.

For point #1, that can be fixed by people reading posts like Death Reincarnated made. I do believe that over time, the more people that come to understanding the GW2 market, the less complaints there will be overall.

And unfortunately, there’s no fix for point #2…

I believe most of the condescending sanctimony in this thread can be summed up in one of the following:

1 ) Player has little understanding that most markets are imperfect without intervention, and supply and demand in a market only produce a healthy one for consumers when anyone can enter the market.
(MMOs make both of these factors much worse, because the “markets” as they can be laughably referred to are entirely artificial)

2 ) Player “has his” and feels entitled to defend the misery of the vast majority of players who just want to be able to advance at a reasonable pace in a game (without their experience held hostage to insufferable people who are psychologically dependent upon the deprivation of others)

For point #1, a competent economics curriculum going beyond the 211 level along with accompanying courses in logic are sufficient.

There are fixes to #2, but not ones ANet can provide.

As a reminder from intermedate levels, many assumptions about what make “pure free markets” healthy break down under scrutiny (both in mmos and often in the real world, but MORE often in mms), including but not limited to:
1 – ease of entry for competition (both direct and indirect substitution)
2 – perfect distribution of information
3 – high elasticity of demand for any one product
4 – perfect liberty to bring goods to market (in the real world, when sugar gets too high, companies can sub in corn syrup. Not in any MMO i’ve seen)

points 1 through 3 also apply to drag down capitalism in the real world and create market imperfections which must be corrected through intervention to restore competition (though many are also CAUSED by intervention, but evaluation of this is on a case by case basis).

point 4 is unique to MMOs. Recipes are fixed, no matter how logical it would be to allow such substitutions.

plasmacutter.2709:

I believe most of the condescending sanctimony in this thread can be summed up in one of the following:

1 ) Player has little understanding that most markets are imperfect without intervention, and supply and demand in a market only produce a healthy one for consumers when anyone can enter the market.
(MMOs make both of these factors much worse, because the “markets” as they can be laughably referred to are entirely artificial)

2 ) Player “has his” and feels entitled to defend the misery of the vast majority of players who just want to be able to advance at a reasonable pace in a game (without their experience held hostage to insufferable people who are psychologically dependent upon the deprivation of others)

For point #1, a competent economics curriculum going beyond the 211 level along with accompanying courses in logic are sufficient.

There are fixes to #2, but not ones ANet can provide.

As a reminder from intermedate levels, many assumptions about what make “pure free markets” healthy break down under scrutiny (both in mmos and often in the real world, but MORE often in mms), including but not limited to:
1 – ease of entry for competition (both direct and indirect substitution)
2 – perfect distribution of information
3 – high elasticity of demand for any one product
4 – perfect liberty to bring goods to market (in the real world, when sugar gets too high, companies can sub in corn syrup. Not in any MMO i’ve seen)

points 1 through 3 also apply to drag down capitalism in the real world and create market imperfections which must be corrected through intervention to restore competition (though many are also CAUSED by intervention, but evaluation of this is on a case by case basis).

point 4 is unique to MMOs. Recipes are fixed, no matter how logical it would be to allow such substitutions.

Good job copy-pasting out of your textbook. Bad job saying anything meaningful.

Standard economic major style.

Tarvok.4206:

Hey, I’m curious about something. For those of you who feel the activities of active traders is negatively impacting your game… what exactly is it that you’re doing that is being impacted by this activity? I only ask because I honestly can’t figure out what the TP is for for those of us who’d rather avoid that sort of thing, given there are supplies of very good items that have nothing to do with it (karma, tokens, etc).

As some who despises ‘playing the TP’ it’s simple: I resent this activity because it means I have to spend time farming gold simply to be able to buy something that I need, when in the absence of ‘market players’ the price would be lower and I could probably afford it without having to waste time accumulating large amounts of gold.

These players are leeching off the efforts of others, those who went to the effort of getting the items these ‘market players’ then exploit; and often do so using TP bots of course.

See, their fun makes me endure huge amounts of tedium or else go without stuff I need whereas in their absence that tedium would be hugely lessened.