Guild Wars 2

I may perhaps be wrong but the reason for the Black Lion Trading Company: Trading post (BLTC: TP) being in the condition it’s in is because of ArenaNet’s inability to balance out the game in Player versus Environment (PvE).

I will not level up any of the crafting. I just wont, it’s that simple in the way I view the game, I have 0 reason to do so. It’s not a complaint, I have nothing I want changed about it. It’s a waste of time and fun engaging game-play and like the majority of everything from PvE ’ish rewards.

In more depth, It seemed kind of obvious this is just busy work—at least to me, why? Because every other aspect of the Guild Wars 2 is based on the smallest possible values while crafting has these outrageous nonsensical quantity demands. It seemed suspicious. That it mirrors the exact opposite of everything else in Guild Wars 2.

How this relates to flipping? The player base beat ArenaNet at their own game and of course that weakness is being exploited. To say otherwise is just foolish.

Why would I want to go round up a bunch of ’ish to get some armor I can just buy—and after a certain point you are getting nothing back. Players spend all this time to get a fancy weapon with no…stat boost. There is a threshold for these things.

In my eyes, at such high scales that’s a waste of game-play and gold. You get absolutely nothing back—and I believe this is how ArenaNet wants you to feel. Yes! Go ahead grab some gems and trade them into gold and buy what you want off the Trading Post because you aren’t willing to do all that nonsense. ArenaNet knows those flippers are there.

However this is how the player base beat ArenaNet with flipping. Why bother giving ArenaNet money when I can do it for free after exceeding a certain threshold? And then reap all the benefits of unrestricted gameplay/dealing with ArenaNets ’ish way cost vs. value pertaining to vendors involving gold.

Why would a player spend Tangible currency while he/she knows that it’s easier to be be bought out—and that the player base at these high scales would rather buy then make?

With ArenaNet’s target audience being casual players you know they aren’t above buying something once they see how visually much leveling in crafting appears to be. Those flippers know the same thing.

But I feel there is a two way street where ArenaNet thinks there is one.

The thing I don’t get is how ArenaNet imagines allowing this to go on by pandering to the lowest common denominator will line their pockets. A casual player is more willing to just go without/walk away before dropping money into game that allows itself to be “tilted”.

That’s part of the game and I don’t want it to change but, as I see it. Let the flippers flip.
Don’t sell anything to in game vendors
Don’t buck around with buying gems for useless pretties.

Does flipping hinder game-play? No but, it’s like having a small stain on a shirt you want to wear. The stain wont stop or seize you from wearing the shirt but it will definitely decide just when you can wear it, where you can wear it, how you can wear it and what for…yet at the same time it can still deter you from wearing it altogether but let us not forget there are other things in your closet to wear too.

I think there is more to be said about the Trading post and flipping in general that’s more indicative of bad balance on the PvE side of Guild Wars 2 but, I’ll stop here.

If rewards were better there’d be no reason to flip anything. ArenaNet wants the player base to play tug-o-war with itself while it waits on the sidelines for the occasional player to buy some gems in frustration/defeat. Want to stop flipping directly? It’s easy…stop buying/selling to/from the trading post and only buy/sell from Tyrian vendors. Keep in mind…A sub. Fee might help ArenaNet from resorting to tactics like this. #jus’sayin’

HHR LostProphet.4801:

First off, I don’t see traidingpost flipping as legitimate way to acquire gold, especially not if it’s the most rewarding way to get gold.

You could say it’s the most rewarding way to get gold & you could also say it’s the fastest way to loose all your gold. With Anet constantly changing, introducing, & reintroducing things every week, investing is sometimes like holding a hot potato, dont hold it to long or you might get burned, but dont sell it to fast or you might not get the most profit.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

One could say that traidingpost flipping requires some sort of skill

It does take skill. If it’s so easy why are you not doing it?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Those players literally don’t have to play the game at all to get almost everything, while players who are actually playing the game can’t compete with that volume of income.

Playing the trading post is playing the game. Why do you have to compete with the richest people in the game? Being rich is more a time investment then anything. Some rich people haven’t played the market or spent any rl money, they’ve just played since the start, & been wise with their earnings.

One thing that’s often overlooked is the amount of skill, time and knowledge that’s needed to earn the BIG bucks with TP flipping. There are lots and lots of players working the TP at any given moment, but out of those thousands of players, most will likely see returns in the realm of 5 to maybe 10 or 20g a day. Only a rare handful of players earn hundreds or thousands of gold from the TP, and even then, that tends to be spread out over a number of weeks or months.

When you consider that hardcore dungeon farmers or karma trainers can also pull in multiple gold per hour, the amount that TP flippers are making is really not that remarkable, outside of getting very lucky with market shifts and striking it big when circumstances fall in your favour. (And is that really so different from your Joe Average player getting a super stroke of luck when a Precursor falls into his pocket from a random mob in the open world? Or opening 5 Gauntlet chances and getting a Chaos of Lyssa recipe?)

Basically, a lot of people think that TP flippers are all sitting back and raking in hundreds of gold a day while not doing very much. This is NOT the case at all. Maybe SOME do if they have an ultra-profitable niche, but they are the rare exception. It’s just like how there are hundreds of players doing PvP, but only a handful of them have the skill and ability to win the Tournament of Legends. It’s the same with the flippers; most are earning no more than what a hardcore farmer or dungeon runner is making with the same amount of time. It’s just that people look at the TP success stories and think they’re an average representation of how most TP flippers are doing, which they’re not.

The fundamental woe has been how tightly the economy is being balanced. The impact on a game economy via changes to the reward system have to always be carefully weighed, as it can ruin even the best games. I think the system of rewards is far more out of whack than the issue of flippers ‘duping’ players or controlling the market. I also think the TP really needs to be clearer about what an item is going for. I’ve given plenty of examples of how to do this in past posts and it’s really an improvement based on giving players better information, something ANet still is struggling with in general. Regardless, it always comes back to attaining worth while goods, some of which can be achieved by adding more good types (weapons/armor/fancy fluffy bunny ears, etc.), the other is bringing rarer goods more in line, by making them less rare.

It’s a tough job, and having the economy so wide-spread makes it even harder. We all know minor tweaks to drop rates have been made, or they’ve added services that require large piles of goods to create a single item (i’m looking at you silk scraps). But it still needs a good deal of improvement. I personally don’t think we’d be having anymore of the flipper conversations if the economy and the balance of available goods were more in-line. But again, it’s a pretty big job and changes with every patch, especially when you get a flood of contributors to the market. Just look how long it took to get lodestones more in balance, to where you don’t see a post ever other day on how awful it is to obtain them.

I swear these anti-TP arguments get progressively worse with each new thread (an impressive feat).

1. There is no evidence that the current mechanics need changing.

2. You can make more than enough to get luxury items without “playing” the markets.

3. If you want more ways of gaining rewards outside of gold (i’m all for that), then perhaps spend less time in threads like this crying about the TP and use that time creating threads in the general/dungeon/pvp forums outlining what sort of new content and rewards you would like to see.

4. No one gives a flying about what you consider to be “legitimate” or not. The market is part of the game, getting actively involved in said market is no less or no more legitimate than someone smacking mobs upside the head or having RP tea parties.

Fenrir.3609:

I swear these anti-TP arguments get progressively worse with each new thread (an impressive feat).

1. There is no evidence that the current mechanics need changing.

2. You can make more than enough to get luxury items without “playing” the markets.

3. If you want more ways of gaining rewards outside of gold (i’m all for that), then perhaps spend less time in threads like this crying about the TP and use that time creating threads in the general/dungeon/pvp forums outlining what sort of new content and rewards you would like to see.

4. No one gives a flying about what you consider to be “legitimate” or not. The market is part of the game, getting actively involved in said market is no less or no more legitimate than someone smacking mobs upside the head or having RP tea parties.

in an action adventure game smacking people upside the head is more legitimate. If i decide to start a 3 on 3 basketball tournament, i should really give the trophies/prizes to people who play the best, not the ones who are winning in the side fantasy football league.

As for feedback in other forums, this was in general first, it got moved here. Dungeon forums have not been commented on, or had any request for feedback, or had much actual changes in content, or reveal of any plans for a long long time. At this point im beginning to feel anet doesnt really believe in dungeons as a product any more. If there was an items and rewards subforum, i think it would get tons of feedback, but as of right now, this is the closest forum, and where most of these type of discussions get moved. Which makes sense, because economy is ultimately the balancing of needs, wants, supply, value of services, standard of living, etc.

phys.7689:

in an action adventure game smacking people upside the head is more legitimate. If i decide to start a 3 on 3 basketball tournament, i should really give the trophies/prizes to people who play the best, not the ones who are winning in the side fantasy football league.

It’s an mmo, a game which caters to a wide variety of playstyles. So no, it isn’t more “legitimate” at all and your basketball example doesn’t fit, surely you can see that right?

As for feedback in other forums, this was in general first, it got moved here.

Could that be perhaps because it is entitled “Trading post flipping…” and because it is whining about the trading post…. It has been explained before why threads like this one (i.e. ones which just whine about the TP) would get moved to this section. Although it would be better if they just got moved straight to trash in all honesty.

Dungeon forums have not been commented on, or had any request for feedback, or had much actual changes in content, or reveal of any plans for a long long time. At this point im beginning to feel anet doesnt really believe in dungeons as a product any more. If there was an items and rewards subforum, i think it would get tons of feedback,

I agree with this part, I don’t see how spamming up the BLTC forum with “waaaaah flippers!!” threads is going to resolve that issue however.

but as of right now, this is the closest forum, and where most of these type of discussions get moved. Which makes sense, because economy is ultimately the balancing of needs, wants, supply, value of services, standard of living, etc.

Again threads which are entitled “kill the flippers” and go on to moan about the TP get moved here. If you started a thread called “New Fractal Rewards” and spent the thread talking about how to add new content to fractals, then I would be somewhat surprised if it got moved here. Even if it did, it would be a heck of a lot more condusive to constructive discussion than threads like this.

The fact of the matter is that a) we are seeing the same anti-TP arguments recycled by the same people yet again (which is going to get us exactly nowhere at all) and b) we see arguments which are skill activity/content/reward centric (i.e. non gold alternative route reward) and which could actually be constructive, being buried in a thread that will no doubt get binned because they are being espoused in a thread wholly unsuited to them.

Fenrir.3609:

It’s an mmo, a game which caters to a wide variety of playstyles. So no, it isn’t more “legitimate” at all and your basketball example doesn’t fit, surely you can see that right?

Could that be perhaps because it is entitled “Trading post flipping…” and because it is whining about the trading post…. It has been explained before why threads like this one (i.e. ones which just whine about the TP) would get moved to this section. Although it would be better if they just got moved straight to trash in all honesty.

I agree with this part, I don’t see how spamming up the BLTC forum with “waaaaah flippers!!” threads is going to resolve that issue however.

If it was sold as a overal MMO life simulator, i would agree, but it really isnt marketed that way
“Guild Wars 2 defines the future of online roleplaying games with action-oriented combat, customized personal storylines, epic dynamic events, world-class PvP, and no subscription fees!”

these are the main selling points of the game, the core of what its supposed to be about. according to the webpage.
It isnt just generic MMO, it is a action MMORPG. Its not the sims.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/
notice in this page it doesnt mention the trading post at all, or economic merchant competition, etc. In fact when they were talking about their plan for the trading post, it was supposed to be a really easy system designed to let you sell and trade your items easily without much concern while playing the game. It has become the focal point of endgame progression at this point.

look, if they had marketed or announced the trading post as being a central pillar of the game, and said that the real battle would be to become as rich as possible, i wouldnt make these comments, but it really isnt even a footnote on any of the advertising.
Im not saying it shouldnt exist, but its dominant.

I do concede that almost any thread with TP or economy in the title will get moved here, but if you are talking about rewards in general, you will have to mention the TP, as it is the main method of obtaining specific rewards in this game.

I take most of these type of threads, as the gut reaction when people dont like something. A lot of times, their solutions, or analysis may be off, or need to be explored, but the core of the issue is, The heavy market based nature of the game is not satisfying to them.

No one complains about the economy when they got a beautiful mate, kids they love, can build for tommorow, and a job they believe in. They complain when something feels wrong. They are dissatisfied, they think they know why, they may be wrong, but a lot of people are dissatisfied with the status quo. In a forum, the goal is to explore and discuss these things to see what has merit, and what doesnt, and see if as a group we can figure out what the problems that can be solved are, and what cannot be solved.

The real point of this thread as i see it is, Someone feels there is an unbalance in rewarding tasks, that seem to have a bias towards one type of gameplay over others, that the poster feels adds disproportionate value to the game as what that it takes away in his opinion.

and once again I would love if a dev would actually point us to the proper place to discuss these types of issues, but they tend to just move things based on keywords, and not content.

phys.7689:

The real point of this thread as i see it is, Someone feels there is an unbalance in rewarding tasks, that seem to have a bias towards one type of gameplay over others, that the poster feels adds disproportionate value to the game as what that it takes away in his opinion.

The real response to this thread is that you won’t get a ‘balance’ between rewarding tasks in an MMO because that’s a matter of opinion. If that doesn’t satisfy, better not play MMO’s where there is more than one way to play.

Fenrir.3609:

I swear these anti-TP arguments get progressively worse with each new thread (an impressive feat).

Makes you wish that economics was taught in schools.

phys.7689:

If it was sold as a overal MMO life simulator, i would agree, but it really isnt marketed that way
“Guild Wars 2 defines the future of online roleplaying games with action-oriented combat, customized personal storylines, epic dynamic events, world-class PvP, and no subscription fees!”

these are the main selling points of the game, the core of what its supposed to be about. according to the webpage.
It isnt just generic MMO, it is a action MMORPG. Its not the sims.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/
notice in this page it doesnt mention the trading post at all, or economic merchant competition, etc. In fact when they were talking about their plan for the trading post, it was supposed to be a really easy system designed to let you sell and trade your items easily without much concern while playing the game. It has become the focal point of endgame progression at this point.

look, if they had marketed or announced the trading post as being a central pillar of the game, and said that the real battle would be to become as rich as possible, i wouldnt make these comments, but it really isnt even a footnote on any of the advertising.
Im not saying it shouldnt exist, but its dominant.

I do concede that almost any thread with TP or economy in the title will get moved here, but if you are talking about rewards in general, you will have to mention the TP, as it is the main method of obtaining specific rewards in this game.

I take most of these type of threads, as the gut reaction when people dont like something. A lot of times, their solutions, or analysis may be off, or need to be explored, but the core of the issue is, The heavy market based nature of the game is not satisfying to them.

No one complains about the economy when they got a beautiful mate, kids they love, can build for tommorow, and a job they believe in. They complain when something feels wrong. They are dissatisfied, they think they know why, they may be wrong, but a lot of people are dissatisfied with the status quo. In a forum, the goal is to explore and discuss these things to see what has merit, and what doesnt, and see if as a group we can figure out what the problems that can be solved are, and what cannot be solved.

The real point of this thread as i see it is, Someone feels there is an unbalance in rewarding tasks, that seem to have a bias towards one type of gameplay over others, that the poster feels adds disproportionate value to the game as what that it takes away in his opinion.

and once again I would love if a dev would actually point us to the proper place to discuss these types of issues, but they tend to just move things based on keywords, and not content.

I would challenge you to find one game on the market where people who play the in game TP/AH aren’t the richest players in the game.

All other in-game activities create wealth, the TP/AH distributes that wealth. Increasing the gold making potential of other activities only makes the TP/AH players have MORE money.

The problem boils down to one of people. The business minded and smarter players will always have more money than the less so players. This will not change no matter what you do. People want to be equal in an unequal world, and it just won’t happen.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

The real point of this thread as i see it is, Someone feels there is an unbalance in rewarding tasks, that seem to have a bias towards one type of gameplay over others, that the poster feels adds disproportionate value to the game as what that it takes away in his opinion.

The real response to this thread is that you won’t get a ‘balance’ between rewarding tasks in an MMO because that’s a matter of opinion. If that doesn’t satisfy, better not play MMO’s where there is more than one way to play.

If you were a designer, i would walk away.

Rewarding tasks are not a matter of opinion, you can do an equation to figure out how rewarding a task in, you can define it various terms.
it may be an opinion how people feel about it, but its not an opinion what the maximum gold earning potential of a task in, or a tasks ability to give a desired output over a time period, Or how many events it will take to achieve X goal. Or how much rewards something gives, versus an investment in time, setup, and learning curve in order to succeed at it.
A major facet of designing rewards (and thus the economy) in a game IS balancing it across different modes of play, and incentivizing gameplay which enhances the game.

And if the game continues on the current path i will also probably walk away, in fact i have not played actively in like 1-2 months, i pop in to check something and then log out. dont even do a daily or anything. I still give feedback, because i guess game theory entertains me, and i because i think the core of the game is pretty strong and still has potential. At this point though you are right, it is coming upon the time where the game wont change much from its established formulas, and if one doesnt like it, then they should move on to the next.

I would say, i guess what happens in the next 4 to 5 months will determine whether this game is something i can rock with or not.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The problem boils down to one of people. The business minded and smarter players will always have more money than the less so players. This will not change no matter what you do. People want to be equal in an unequal world, and it just won’t happen.

This. So much this. In every mmo the less capable want what the more capable have.(in rl too) I play all facets of the gw2 game including the tp But I dont like grinding dungeon or fractals. The same repetitive PvE content bores me. I dont go in for any BIG money, I play the TP for some side money because gold in your wallet is gold that can be doing something. But I am positive that I have earned more gold through “proper” play than TP flipping.

Is mystic forging a precursor for the seed money proper play? Is stockpiling elonian leather until the price rises and then selling it proper play? I have done almost every ascended daily crafting every day even though i dont need the mats but I know I can sell them when the price is high. Is this proper? Please tell me how i should play so i dont offend your sensibilities. PLease.

Your feeling matter to me…Really they do.

phys.7689:

Azrael.4960:

The fundamental mistake is comparing the Trading post to a stock market. The TP is more a commodities market. If you look at it that way it makes more sense. Flippers are more in line with speculators.

Regardless of how you look at it every game has an in game economy, formal or otherwise. Using it to bring in an income to fund your in game activities has been the mainstay of all of these games.

The OP’s suggestion is ridiculous as that would drive up prices not bring them down. Under their idea, in order for the prices to even be held static, the same quantity of items removed from the TC would have to equal the volume being put in. This is just not going to happen.

What you see as illegitimate is actually a very legitimate way of playing the game. You go off into the world and hoover up vast quantities of materials, weapons and gold then sink it into the TC or merchants. Adventurer’s gold is created more or less out of the air and as such, there is effectively a limitless supply of it. What does a limitless supply of currency cause? Inflation, then hyperinflation.

Flippers are a necessary part of the in game economy. They’ll will do dungeons, sell Arah paths, gather mats, and all the stuff that anyone does but the gold they earn from that is sunk into the TC, which acts to keep the economy balanced. They earn a great deal of gold, this is true but 5% fee also acts to remove a great deal of gold from the market which in turn helps control inflation. Even pulling a number out of the air, one could consider that 100s of thousands, if not millions of gold are sucked out of the economy by flipper trading.

Remove flipping from the game and you’ll destroy the economy

an economy is like an ecosystem, yes you would destroy it, but something else would undoubtedly spring up in its stead, the question is, would what comes be better? maybe not, but honestly the economy we have is not really that good. Many goods services, tasks have no value, or low value, the ones with high value end up being degenerative.

And although flippers do keep inflation down somewhat, they also increase the wealth disparity, after all what a flipper essentially does, is either skim money off the item creator, or the item user, or both. they basically make everyone else poorer to make themselves richer.

so they arent really a slam dunk in terms of benefits to the economy.

Allow me to try to keep the discussion within the scope set by the OP’s suggestion.
The in game economy is a microcosm in a sealed environment. The real world economy fluctuates here and there, market corrections and crashes, but it reacts, evolves and moves on. The GW2 economy doesn’t really have the luxury as it exists within a framework of largely inflexible rules.

So within the bounds of the OP’s suggestion, removing that form of income must be replaced by Anet with another form. Grey market trading isn’t really an option and there’s just too much room for abuse.

Wealth disparity will always occur in any MMO, this is simply unavoidable, particularly when one is able to convert real cash to in game cash. Fortunately, in gw2 the check on huge personal wealth having a massive effect on the economy is relatively minimal. A stark example of wealth disparity, in my experience, was caused by the ill fate auction house system in D3. Hardcore farmers amassed fortunes in the billions of gold while casual players puttered around with maybe a million or so if they weren’t bankrupted by repair costs. This led to a system where the items one needed to keep going was completely out of reach of the casuals. This was made worse by the way the game difficulty scaled. At least in GW2, the expense of precursors, at least to newbies, is offset by the fact that they’re not necessary to progress in the game.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I would challenge you to find one game on the market where people who play the in game TP/AH aren’t the richest players in the game.

All other in-game activities create wealth, the TP/AH distributes that wealth. Increasing the gold making potential of other activities only makes the TP/AH players have MORE money.

The problem boils down to one of people. The business minded and smarter players will always have more money than the less so players. This will not change no matter what you do. People want to be equal in an unequal world, and it just won’t happen.

too be clear this isnt about gold, its really about rewards, or value gained per gameplay type.

hmm, i think the big difference is, being the richest player in the game wasnt that important. While being rich gave you definate advantages, it wasnt really the primary way to progress.

My example would be FFXI, the richest players were money minded, but the most powerful players in the game were more focused on completing difficult content, or organizing a guild that could compete at content.

The most expensive items in the game were hunted, or gotten via boss battles, or open world content or instances. These players were of course very rich, but probably not the richest. They were the players that could gather people to do hard events, special raids, hunt rare monsters, etc. I remember our group hunting a NM, getting the kill, and getting like 1 million gil for an item (in GW2 terms lets say that as a 800 gold item)

I was known for being a super poor player, but i was also known for having some pretty good gear compared to other players who started around the same time, mostly because i had a lot of the good gear you can get through content, and went on many a deadly adventure that should have gotten me killed. Thats not really the case in this game, you either grind easy stuff, or you play the tp, and that gets you the in demand items.

i dont think the problem is rich players getting rich, that will always be the case, anyone who focuses on something will obviously do better at it than other people. The problem is gold is the only way to obtain these things with any sort of reliability.

you want a precursor? grind gold to buy from tp, or grind gold to gamble in forge, you want ascended? grind gold to get crafting materials, or grind materials (which turns out to be the case that grind gold is actually better than farming the items) you want special mystic forge skin? grind gold to get items, trying to get these items via drops is slower than grinding gold and buying them.

and i think this is mostly because every item is given out fairly randomly, people can rarely make a choice as to what they want to hunt, (hunting any specific item directly is almost always the least effecient means of obtaining it)

eithinan.9841:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The problem boils down to one of people. The business minded and smarter players will always have more money than the less so players. This will not change no matter what you do. People want to be equal in an unequal world, and it just won’t happen.

This. So much this. In every mmo the less capable want what the more capable have.(in rl too) I play all facets of the gw2 game including the tp But I dont like grinding dungeon or fractals. The same repetitive PvE content bores me. I dont go in for any BIG money, I play the TP for some side money because gold in your wallet is gold that can be doing something. But I am positive that I have earned more gold through “proper” play than TP flipping.

Is mystic forging a precursor for the seed money proper play? Is stockpiling elonian leather until the price rises and then selling it proper play? I have done almost every ascended daily crafting every day even though i dont need the mats but I know I can sell them when the price is high. Is this proper? Please tell me how i should play so i dont offend your sensibilities. PLease.

Your feeling matter to me…Really they do.

It would be fine is there wasn’t a definitive outlier and everything was relatively based on time/effort/skill. Unfortunately what we have here is a definitive outlier, where the fact that it is such matters more so than other determinants. Ofc there will not be absolute balance, but the goal should be to balance things as close as possible. Unfortunately what we have here is attempted balancing of pretty much everything except playing the tp, where it appears they just said “f it”.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

The real point of this thread as i see it is, Someone feels there is an unbalance in rewarding tasks, that seem to have a bias towards one type of gameplay over others, that the poster feels adds disproportionate value to the game as what that it takes away in his opinion.

The real response to this thread is that you won’t get a ‘balance’ between rewarding tasks in an MMO because that’s a matter of opinion. If that doesn’t satisfy, better not play MMO’s where there is more than one way to play.

If you were a designer, i would walk away.

Rewarding tasks are not a matter of opinion, you can do an equation to figure out how rewarding a task in, you can define it various terms.

That’s what GW2 is. Rewards are VERY defined. I know what rewards I get for doing task X. I know I get a different reward for doing task Y. Just because you don’t agree that the relative reward differences between X and Y aren’t inline with what you think they should be doesn’t make them unbalanced. That’s simply an opinion.

This is simply a matter of players expressing their jealousy … he has more gold than me, nerf his approach to earning gold.

eithinan.9841:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The problem boils down to one of people. The business minded and smarter players will always have more money than the less so players. This will not change no matter what you do. People want to be equal in an unequal world, and it just won’t happen.

This. So much this. In every mmo the less capable want what the more capable have.(in rl too) I play all facets of the gw2 game including the tp But I dont like grinding dungeon or fractals. The same repetitive PvE content bores me. I dont go in for any BIG money, I play the TP for some side money because gold in your wallet is gold that can be doing something. But I am positive that I have earned more gold through “proper” play than TP flipping.

Is mystic forging a precursor for the seed money proper play? Is stockpiling elonian leather until the price rises and then selling it proper play? I have done almost every ascended daily crafting every day even though i dont need the mats but I know I can sell them when the price is high. Is this proper? Please tell me how i should play so i dont offend your sensibilities. PLease.

Your feeling matter to me…Really they do.

problem is, in terms of effeciency, success, and what value you gain from doing it, what you are talking about is proper play. the other forms of the game give you less proper play. Once again, ill say i think the big problem with economy, is the inability of the user to create business or supply effeciently. When people can choose what they want to achieve, then gold is a means of exchange, and not an end in and of itself.

you guys always like to break it down to money, a lot of people are not money oriented. That doesnt mean they arent goal oriented.
IRL what you get out of it, isnt what you put into its or how skilled you are, its more about, can you monetize that?

Azrael.4960:

phys.7689:

Azrael.4960:

The fundamental mistake is comparing the Trading post to a stock market. The TP is more a commodities market. If you look at it that way it makes more sense. Flippers are more in line with speculators.

Regardless of how you look at it every game has an in game economy, formal or otherwise. Using it to bring in an income to fund your in game activities has been the mainstay of all of these games.

The OP’s suggestion is ridiculous as that would drive up prices not bring them down. Under their idea, in order for the prices to even be held static, the same quantity of items removed from the TC would have to equal the volume being put in. This is just not going to happen.

What you see as illegitimate is actually a very legitimate way of playing the game. You go off into the world and hoover up vast quantities of materials, weapons and gold then sink it into the TC or merchants. Adventurer’s gold is created more or less out of the air and as such, there is effectively a limitless supply of it. What does a limitless supply of currency cause? Inflation, then hyperinflation.

Flippers are a necessary part of the in game economy. They’ll will do dungeons, sell Arah paths, gather mats, and all the stuff that anyone does but the gold they earn from that is sunk into the TC, which acts to keep the economy balanced. They earn a great deal of gold, this is true but 5% fee also acts to remove a great deal of gold from the market which in turn helps control inflation. Even pulling a number out of the air, one could consider that 100s of thousands, if not millions of gold are sucked out of the economy by flipper trading.

Remove flipping from the game and you’ll destroy the economy

an economy is like an ecosystem, yes you would destroy it, but something else would undoubtedly spring up in its stead, the question is, would what comes be better? maybe not, but honestly the economy we have is not really that good. Many goods services, tasks have no value, or low value, the ones with high value end up being degenerative.

And although flippers do keep inflation down somewhat, they also increase the wealth disparity, after all what a flipper essentially does, is either skim money off the item creator, or the item user, or both. they basically make everyone else poorer to make themselves richer.

so they arent really a slam dunk in terms of benefits to the economy.

Allow me to try to keep the discussion within the scope set by the OP’s suggestion.
The in game economy is a microcosm in a sealed environment. The real world economy fluctuates here and there, market corrections and crashes, but it reacts, evolves and moves on. The GW2 economy doesn’t really have the luxury as it exists within a framework of largely inflexible rules.

So within the bounds of the OP’s suggestion, removing that form of income must be replaced by Anet with another form. Grey market trading isn’t really an option and there’s just too much room for abuse.

Wealth disparity will always occur in any MMO, this is simply unavoidable, particularly when one is able to convert real cash to in game cash. Fortunately, in gw2 the check on huge personal wealth having a massive effect on the economy is relatively minimal. A stark example of wealth disparity, in my experience, was caused by the ill fate auction house system in D3. Hardcore farmers amassed fortunes in the billions of gold while casual players puttered around with maybe a million or so if they weren’t bankrupted by repair costs. This led to a system where the items one needed to keep going was completely out of reach of the casuals. This was made worse by the way the game difficulty scaled. At least in GW2, the expense of precursors, at least to newbies, is offset by the fact that they’re not necessary to progress in the game.

not disagreeing with you, but the problem is that eventually noobies become level 80, whether they are casual or not. And this is the point where people are like oh snap, wtf. When they realize that the game is no longer about exploring the world, doing dungeons, getting karma, or whatever their old goals were, The goals are now dominated by how much gold you can earn, the best method of obtaining these items is to either become a merchant, or to grind easy content repeatedly. Its not really how you played before, and for a lot of people it isnt that entertaining. Not to mention, the grind required is often huge.

phys.7689:

not disagreeing with you, but the problem is that eventually noobies become level 80, whether they are casual or not. And this is the point where people are like oh snap, wtf. When they realize that the game is no longer about exploring the world, doing dungeons, getting karma, or whatever their old goals were, The goals are now dominated by how much gold you can earn, the best method of obtaining these items is to either become a merchant, or to grind easy content repeatedly. Its not really how you played before, and for a lot of people it isnt that entertaining. Not to mention, the grind required is often huge.

That’s such a load of garbage. The game is whatever you make it. Goals are only dominated by gold if you MAKE it your goal for something that requires it as fast as you can. Gold does NOT have to dominate people’s goals once they hit level 80. That’s simply your perception.

What makes your perception even more nonsensical is that you get gold whether you want it or not by doing all those endgame activities so you don’t even need to do content you don’t like to earn it. You simply play the game how you want.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

The real point of this thread as i see it is, Someone feels there is an unbalance in rewarding tasks, that seem to have a bias towards one type of gameplay over others, that the poster feels adds disproportionate value to the game as what that it takes away in his opinion.

The real response to this thread is that you won’t get a ‘balance’ between rewarding tasks in an MMO because that’s a matter of opinion. If that doesn’t satisfy, better not play MMO’s where there is more than one way to play.

If you were a designer, i would walk away.

Rewarding tasks are not a matter of opinion, you can do an equation to figure out how rewarding a task in, you can define it various terms.

That’s what GW2 is. Rewards are VERY defined. I know what rewards I get for doing task X. I know I get a different reward for doing task Y. Just because you don’t agree that the relative reward differences between X and Y aren’t inline with what you think they should be doesn’t make them unbalanced. That’s simply an opinion.

This is simply a matter of players expressing their jealousy … he has more gold than me, nerf his approach to earning gold.

its not really about gold, its about value gained per task. I often use gold as measure of that because this game is very gold heavy.

my opinion on the matter is my opinion, but it is not an opinion to say.

EOTM gives this much value per playtime maximum
Dungeon running gives this much value per playtime maximum
TP playing gives this much value per playtime maximum.

there is also targeting rewards, people feel more satisfied even if they get the same value per playtime, if that value is targeted at something they specifically want.

most people would rather get a car, then get a bunch of random items, they can sell on ebay and when it all sells they can buy a car. When the ebay method is the only way to get a good car, being a racecar driver is more about being a master ebay seller than driving cars.

phys.7689:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I would challenge you to find one game on the market where people who play the in game TP/AH aren’t the richest players in the game.

All other in-game activities create wealth, the TP/AH distributes that wealth. Increasing the gold making potential of other activities only makes the TP/AH players have MORE money.

The problem boils down to one of people. The business minded and smarter players will always have more money than the less so players. This will not change no matter what you do. People want to be equal in an unequal world, and it just won’t happen.

too be clear this isnt about gold, its really about rewards, or value gained per gameplay type.

hmm, i think the big difference is, being the richest player in the game wasnt that important. While being rich gave you definate advantages, it wasnt really the primary way to progress.

My example would be FFXI, the richest players were money minded, but the most powerful players in the game were more focused on completing difficult content, or organizing a guild that could compete at content.

The most expensive items in the game were hunted, or gotten via boss battles, or open world content or instances. These players were of course very rich, but probably not the richest. They were the players that could gather people to do hard events, special raids, hunt rare monsters, etc. I remember our group hunting a NM, getting the kill, and getting like 1 million gil for an item (in GW2 terms lets say that as a 800 gold item)

I was known for being a super poor player, but i was also known for having some pretty good gear compared to other players who started around the same time, mostly because i had a lot of the good gear you can get through content, and went on many a deadly adventure that should have gotten me killed. Thats not really the case in this game, you either grind easy stuff, or you play the tp, and that gets you the in demand items.

i dont think the problem is rich players getting rich, that will always be the case, anyone who focuses on something will obviously do better at it than other people. The problem is gold is the only way to obtain these things with any sort of reliability.

you want a precursor? grind gold to buy from tp, or grind gold to gamble in forge, you want ascended? grind gold to get crafting materials, or grind materials (which turns out to be the case that grind gold is actually better than farming the items) you want special mystic forge skin? grind gold to get items, trying to get these items via drops is slower than grinding gold and buying them.

and i think this is mostly because every item is given out fairly randomly, people can rarely make a choice as to what they want to hunt, (hunting any specific item directly is almost always the least effecient means of obtaining it)

Ahh ok, now we are on the same page. I would agree with that. The problem is that GW2 was designed and built around gold and crafting. BAsically they wanted everyone to be able to make their own stuff without having to spend a lot of time doing something they didn’t like. This worked well in that sense but it led to the current situation where everything is easier to obtain by using gold instead of getting it yourself.

The rewards are currently the bi-product of gold making activities, where as imo the gold should be the bi-product of reward making activities.

I think it boils down to design philosophy and GW2 was designed with casual low skill players as the focus. They can’t introduce high skill cap reward based gear like in other games because it would alienate a large portion of their player base. People already complain about Lindari and Wurm even though these are relatively low skill achievements by MMO standards.

However there are new “elite achievements” coming with the story journal, and they may tie in rewards with skill. We should know more later today, though it may be a step in the direction you are looking for.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

The real point of this thread as i see it is, Someone feels there is an unbalance in rewarding tasks, that seem to have a bias towards one type of gameplay over others, that the poster feels adds disproportionate value to the game as what that it takes away in his opinion.

The real response to this thread is that you won’t get a ‘balance’ between rewarding tasks in an MMO because that’s a matter of opinion. If that doesn’t satisfy, better not play MMO’s where there is more than one way to play.

If you were a designer, i would walk away.

Rewarding tasks are not a matter of opinion, you can do an equation to figure out how rewarding a task in, you can define it various terms.

That’s what GW2 is. Rewards are VERY defined. I know what rewards I get for doing task X. I know I get a different reward for doing task Y. Just because you don’t agree that the relative reward differences between X and Y aren’t inline with what you think they should be doesn’t make them unbalanced. That’s simply an opinion.

This is simply a matter of players expressing their jealousy … he has more gold than me, nerf his approach to earning gold.

its not really about gold, its about value gained per task. I often use gold as measure of that because this game is very gold heavy.

It is really about gold because almost everything you get from doing content in this game has a value related to an amount of gold. Even those tokens from dungeons have gold value because they are used to buy gear that is comparable to gear purchased with gold.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

not disagreeing with you, but the problem is that eventually noobies become level 80, whether they are casual or not. And this is the point where people are like oh snap, wtf. When they realize that the game is no longer about exploring the world, doing dungeons, getting karma, or whatever their old goals were, The goals are now dominated by how much gold you can earn, the best method of obtaining these items is to either become a merchant, or to grind easy content repeatedly. Its not really how you played before, and for a lot of people it isnt that entertaining. Not to mention, the grind required is often huge.

That’s such a load of garbage. The game is whatever you make it. Goals are only dominated by gold if you MAKE it your goal for something that requires it. All that endgame content you mentioned is done with exotic gear … which literally falls in your lap if your exposing yourself to various activities. Gold does NOT have to dominate people’s goals once they hit level 80. That’s simply your perception.

What makes your perception even more nonsensical is that you get gold whether you want it or not by doing all those activities.

aside from fractal weapons ascended accesories and dungeon EQ, all the endgame items primary blocker is gold.
infinite light? foe fires essence? ascended gear? legendaries? inventory expansion? cultural armor? non fractal ascended backpeices? transmuting items?

and yeah those activities give you gold, at an abysmal rate. and not much other value to boot.
go compare value gained per time completing a map to value gained in EOTM or TP flipping, or running 3 easy dungeon paths.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

The real point of this thread as i see it is, Someone feels there is an unbalance in rewarding tasks, that seem to have a bias towards one type of gameplay over others, that the poster feels adds disproportionate value to the game as what that it takes away in his opinion.

The real response to this thread is that you won’t get a ‘balance’ between rewarding tasks in an MMO because that’s a matter of opinion. If that doesn’t satisfy, better not play MMO’s where there is more than one way to play.

If you were a designer, i would walk away.

Rewarding tasks are not a matter of opinion, you can do an equation to figure out how rewarding a task in, you can define it various terms.

That’s what GW2 is. Rewards are VERY defined. I know what rewards I get for doing task X. I know I get a different reward for doing task Y. Just because you don’t agree that the relative reward differences between X and Y aren’t inline with what you think they should be doesn’t make them unbalanced. That’s simply an opinion.

This is simply a matter of players expressing their jealousy … he has more gold than me, nerf his approach to earning gold.

its not really about gold, its about value gained per task. I often use gold as measure of that because this game is very gold heavy.

It is really about gold because almost everything you get from doing content in this game has a value related to an amount of gold. Even those tokens from dungeons have gold value because they are used to buy gear that is comparable to gear purchased with gold.

in this you are correct, in GW2, it really is about gold, and thats why people get into these big debates on what task is the most rewarding or should be the most rewarding, because once you accept that its about gold, all forms of play can be broken down to how much gold they earn, and then you have a degrees of playing the game right, if you have any of the endgame items/services as a goal.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

phys.7689:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I would challenge you to find one game on the market where people who play the in game TP/AH aren’t the richest players in the game.

All other in-game activities create wealth, the TP/AH distributes that wealth. Increasing the gold making potential of other activities only makes the TP/AH players have MORE money.

The problem boils down to one of people. The business minded and smarter players will always have more money than the less so players. This will not change no matter what you do. People want to be equal in an unequal world, and it just won’t happen.

too be clear this isnt about gold, its really about rewards, or value gained per gameplay type.

hmm, i think the big difference is, being the richest player in the game wasnt that important. While being rich gave you definate advantages, it wasnt really the primary way to progress.

My example would be FFXI, the richest players were money minded, but the most powerful players in the game were more focused on completing difficult content, or organizing a guild that could compete at content.

The most expensive items in the game were hunted, or gotten via boss battles, or open world content or instances. These players were of course very rich, but probably not the richest. They were the players that could gather people to do hard events, special raids, hunt rare monsters, etc. I remember our group hunting a NM, getting the kill, and getting like 1 million gil for an item (in GW2 terms lets say that as a 800 gold item)

I was known for being a super poor player, but i was also known for having some pretty good gear compared to other players who started around the same time, mostly because i had a lot of the good gear you can get through content, and went on many a deadly adventure that should have gotten me killed. Thats not really the case in this game, you either grind easy stuff, or you play the tp, and that gets you the in demand items.

i dont think the problem is rich players getting rich, that will always be the case, anyone who focuses on something will obviously do better at it than other people. The problem is gold is the only way to obtain these things with any sort of reliability.

you want a precursor? grind gold to buy from tp, or grind gold to gamble in forge, you want ascended? grind gold to get crafting materials, or grind materials (which turns out to be the case that grind gold is actually better than farming the items) you want special mystic forge skin? grind gold to get items, trying to get these items via drops is slower than grinding gold and buying them.

and i think this is mostly because every item is given out fairly randomly, people can rarely make a choice as to what they want to hunt, (hunting any specific item directly is almost always the least effecient means of obtaining it)

Ahh ok, now we are on the same page. I would agree with that. The problem is that GW2 was designed and built around gold and crafting. BAsically they wanted everyone to be able to make their own stuff without having to spend a lot of time doing something they didn’t like. This worked well in that sense but it led to the current situation where everything is easier to obtain by using gold instead of getting it yourself.

The rewards are currently the bi-product of gold making activities, where as imo the gold should be the bi-product of reward making activities.

I think it boils down to design philosophy and GW2 was designed with casual low skill players as the focus. They can’t introduce high skill cap reward based gear like in other games because it would alienate a large portion of their player base. People already complain about Lindari and Wurm even though these are relatively low skill achievements by MMO standards.

However there are new “elite achievements” coming with the story journal, and they may tie in rewards with skill. We should know more later today, though it may be a step in the direction you are looking for.

yes, i realize why they made this choice, i just think it clashes with a lot of peoples desires in an mmorpg. I think it sounded good on paper, but the end result is that once you get high level, your main focus is earning gold, not adventure. You can still adventure, it just wont get you much closer to any item/reward/progress.

That said, i dont think all of this content needs to be super challenging(though some of it can be), it just has to be deep, something you can sink your teeth into. Dedicate yourself to, and have a marketable skill, or playstyle that has good value gained. I think tp players have a rather deep minigame, though i dont like playing it super often. I dont think other game types offer that type of depth, and definately not that type of value gained.

phys, you can complain to your hearts content in these topics about reward structures but as already mentioned, nobody from Anet will read it if its buried in a complain topic about the tp.

Wanze.8410:

phys, you can complain to your hearts content in these topics about reward structures but as already mentioned, nobody from Anet will read it if its buried in a complain topic about the tp.

i will test your theory.

So once again how is flipping the TP a bad thing? As John Smith said it doesn’t really effect prices that much, and it is a valid way to play the game? Yes the rewards are largely based on gold, and thats ok. So the few “TP Barons” have more gold than almost everybody. And? All this whole discussion is, is the GW2 version of “income inequality” Which is a totally bogus argument anyway. Some people have more because they were smart and made good investments, others have more because they worked hard to get there. So why should they be punished because they have more? Why should someone who has less be given a portion of what those who have more have? The very wealthy don’t control the prices, or the supply, so why is it even an issue?

John Smith.4610:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Jansen.4753:

Flipping does not increase any price, in fact, without flippers sell orders could be higher, if you don’t understand this, then you don’t understand how it works, plus with the gold sink it creates its actually helping reduce inflation, which is good for everyone.

Sorry for my spelling

yeah… no. How, in gods name, should people who buying cheap and selling expensive help keeping the prices down? It makes no sense.

When a player adds velocity or liquidity to a market, the result is often lower prices and often prices closer to equilibrium.
Given recent feedback let me try also this in other terms (I’ve tried this before and failed so bare with me).

Supply and Demand curves can also be called Willingness to Pay and Willingness to Sell curves. Essentially they are the shape of what people are willing to pay or how much people are willing to sell for. If everyone is will to pay $5 then the “demand” curve would be a flat horizontal line at $5.
In real markets the curves end up being curves because people have different preferences or costs. I might be willing to pay $100 for a new video game and you may be willing to pay $50 and yet another person $30. When you extrapolate this out you get a smooth curve of what people are willing to pay (it works the same way for the willingness to sell).

Balance (or equilibrium) occurs when those two lines meet, and people are willing to pay the same amount people are willing to sell. This price is decided by the market as a whole. Given the “freeness” of our market in GW2 people can sell for more or less than this price. In a textbook this would never happen because people always want to be in that balanced state. In real life though, especially in video games, people have different preferences outside of that market equation. Time is a major factor of this equation in real life. Imagine you could instantly sell items to a vendor for 1 gold or you could place them on the TP for 1gold 5 silver; some amount of player would be willing to sell straight the the vendor and save the time because their preference for time or convenience makes that a good trade off for them and that’s awesome, people should be allowed to make that trade off if they want. Now let’s say people instead just place everything on the TP for super cheap instead of vendoring because it’s easier. The prices these items are placed at are often placed below that equilibrium price which leaves room for someone to purchase those items and sell them at equilibrium price earning some profit per item. The person who purchases and resells values that trades and so does the individual selling easily, in this case both parties match what they want. Now the market has items placed at the equilibrium price for the standard buyers/sellers that sell at that equilibrium. Those sellers cannot change that equilibrium price and placing items above that price will result in the items not selling. They cannot raise the price, the market has decided the price and other people have decided their willingness to sell.

The first question to ask here is, “Isn’t the profit of the reseller directly equivalent to how much people are willing to trade off money for time or other preferences?”
The answer is yes, and more than that, the potential profit is split between all the different individuals attempting to buy and resell. Since the profit is finite and will become distributed between players, why wouldn’t people begin doing that until everyone only made little to no money? If everyone was the same person they would, but there must be some barrier to entry to that activity, there must be something that stops people from jumping in and distributing some of that profit to themselves. The most common and the most correct (but not complete) is that it takes time and skill, if it did not there would be almost no profit in the activity because the potential would be split between too many different individuals.

(Hello again econ and business people, I’m aware that this is very simple, but I’m attempting to introduce people to the ideas and attempting to explain complex concepts right away turns out poorly)

During war people is willingly to pay absurd prices for food and medicines.

People gathering stuff to resell are consideered criminals.

This is a game and even if stuff is not needed as food would be, its basically the same thing.

Since the purpose of the game is FUN, people is forced to trade mostof their rewards in order to be able to have fun.

This is where your economy is totally wrong.

havent we seen this topic a number of times with the same comments.
I don’t want to work for my gold. Anet should give it to me for doing nothing since I’m special.
Anyone willing to put in extra time/effort/research should not be allowed to earn any gold since I am to lazy to do the exact same thing. It’s just not fair.

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

During war people is willingly to pay absurd prices for food and medicines.

People gathering stuff to resell are consideered criminals.

This is a game and even if stuff is not needed as food would be, its basically the same thing.

Since the purpose of the game is FUN, people is forced to trade mostof their rewards in order to be able to have fun.

This is where your economy is totally wrong.

Wow…

I’ll give you a cookie to tackle that post.

I love these threads.

I very much enjoy flipping on the TP. I don’t spend hours doing it. I will scout a tower/keep in wvw and do it. Please don’t take away my fun because you don’t think it is fun.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

The real point of this thread as i see it is, Someone feels there is an unbalance in rewarding tasks, that seem to have a bias towards one type of gameplay over others, that the poster feels adds disproportionate value to the game as what that it takes away in his opinion.

The real response to this thread is that you won’t get a ‘balance’ between rewarding tasks in an MMO because that’s a matter of opinion. If that doesn’t satisfy, better not play MMO’s where there is more than one way to play.

If you were a designer, i would walk away.

Rewarding tasks are not a matter of opinion, you can do an equation to figure out how rewarding a task in, you can define it various terms.

That’s what GW2 is. Rewards are VERY defined. I know what rewards I get for doing task X. I know I get a different reward for doing task Y. Just because you don’t agree that the relative reward differences between X and Y aren’t inline with what you think they should be doesn’t make them unbalanced. That’s simply an opinion.

This is simply a matter of players expressing their jealousy … he has more gold than me, nerf his approach to earning gold.

its not really about gold, its about value gained per task. I often use gold as measure of that because this game is very gold heavy.

It is really about gold because almost everything you get from doing content in this game has a value related to an amount of gold. Even those tokens from dungeons have gold value because they are used to buy gear that is comparable to gear purchased with gold.

in this you are correct, in GW2, it really is about gold, and thats why people get into these big debates on what task is the most rewarding or should be the most rewarding, because once you accept that its about gold, all forms of play can be broken down to how much gold they earn, and then you have a degrees of playing the game right, if you have any of the endgame items/services as a goal.

There is no ‘acceptance’ of the idea that the game is all about gold unless you CHOOSE to make it all about gold. If a player decides they want to make this game into a gold hunt, then they really couldn’t care about the content they needed to do to get it or the balance of the rewards over the various things to do in the game; Gold hunters just do whatever to get gold as as simply satisfied with this.

If players reject the idea that the game is all about making gold and just embrace the completion of activities, then they experience I believe is the intented by the devs; to provide you with a game experience to have fun while earning rewards anyways in time. The game does this well and it should; it’s the intent.

TLDR; players chasing gold do it by choice, not because the game makes them.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

The real point of this thread as i see it is, Someone feels there is an unbalance in rewarding tasks, that seem to have a bias towards one type of gameplay over others, that the poster feels adds disproportionate value to the game as what that it takes away in his opinion.

The real response to this thread is that you won’t get a ‘balance’ between rewarding tasks in an MMO because that’s a matter of opinion. If that doesn’t satisfy, better not play MMO’s where there is more than one way to play.

If you were a designer, i would walk away.

Rewarding tasks are not a matter of opinion, you can do an equation to figure out how rewarding a task in, you can define it various terms.

That’s what GW2 is. Rewards are VERY defined. I know what rewards I get for doing task X. I know I get a different reward for doing task Y. Just because you don’t agree that the relative reward differences between X and Y aren’t inline with what you think they should be doesn’t make them unbalanced. That’s simply an opinion.

This is simply a matter of players expressing their jealousy … he has more gold than me, nerf his approach to earning gold.

its not really about gold, its about value gained per task. I often use gold as measure of that because this game is very gold heavy.

It is really about gold because almost everything you get from doing content in this game has a value related to an amount of gold. Even those tokens from dungeons have gold value because they are used to buy gear that is comparable to gear purchased with gold.

in this you are correct, in GW2, it really is about gold, and thats why people get into these big debates on what task is the most rewarding or should be the most rewarding, because once you accept that its about gold, all forms of play can be broken down to how much gold they earn, and then you have a degrees of playing the game right, if you have any of the endgame items/services as a goal.

There is no ‘acceptance’ of the idea that the game is all about gold unless you CHOOSE to do so. If that is the case, then you CAN’T complain if there is an optimal approach to earning gold because I’m certain that when the devs sit down to make content, they don’t start with the idea that it’s going to be about chasing down more gold.

The game is all about gold because very little in the game at level 80 isnt about getting gold.
I complain because the the methods of getting gold effeciently arent very fun, and getting gold is the only thing to do about 2 weeks after you hit 80
If the devs dont sit down and think they are making gold heavy content that is surprising, because almost everything is based on gold grind.
I actually did the gold grind, i made 2 legendaries, i could make one more, but ehhh, to much grind with too little fun things to do in order to get another one.

Of course, this may not be the game for me, as you have said many times, that solidifies with time. I hope you will be wrong on that front, but ehhh no big deal really.

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

During war people is willingly to pay absurd prices for food and medicines.

People gathering stuff to resell are consideered criminals.

This is a game and even if stuff is not needed as food would be, its basically the same thing.

Since the purpose of the game is FUN, people is forced to trade mostof their rewards in order to be able to have fun.

This is where your economy is totally wrong.

Wow…

Thats you snookered, John.

phys.7689:

The game is all about gold because very little in the game at level 80 isnt about getting gold.

Means to an end vs. ends to a mean. Everything about the endgame for ME is not about gold because you need very little gold to do any of the endgame content. It’s all balanced around gear that is obtained EASILY by the time you reach 80. I believe this is the mindset players need to have to adopt and enjoy GW2. It’s not a ‘goldchasing’ game because you simply don’t need huge piles of gold to play and be successful.

You can’t make generalized statements based on your perception of game rewards/economy and claim it’s ‘wrong’, unbalanced or whatever. Well, I guess you can, but you don’t really have alot of people that make a difference taking you seriously when you do.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

The game is all about gold because very little in the game at level 80 isnt about getting gold.

Means to an end vs. ends to a mean. Everything about the endgame for ME is not about gold because you need very little gold to do any of the endgame content. It’s all balanced around gear that is obtained EASILY by the time you reach 80. I believe this is the mindset players need to have to adopt and enjoy GW2. It’s not a ‘goldchasing’ game because you simply don’t need huge piles of gold to play and be successful.

You can’t make generalized statements based on your perception of game rewards/economy and claim it’s ‘wrong’, unbalanced or whatever. Well, I guess you can, but you don’t really have alot of people that make a difference taking you seriously when you do.

nevermind Obtena, if it works for the devs, its thier game, they can do whatever they want. I said my peice.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

The game is all about gold because very little in the game at level 80 isnt about getting gold.

Means to an end vs. ends to a mean. Everything about the endgame for ME is not about gold because you need very little gold to do any of the endgame content. It’s all balanced around gear that is obtained EASILY by the time you reach 80. I believe this is the mindset players need to have to adopt and enjoy GW2. It’s not a ‘goldchasing’ game because you simply don’t need huge piles of gold to play and be successful.

You can’t make generalized statements based on your perception of game rewards/economy and claim it’s ‘wrong’, unbalanced or whatever. Well, I guess you can, but you don’t really have alot of people that make a difference taking you seriously when you do.

You just did the exact thing. Made a generalized statement based on your perception. Not saying your[statement is right or wrong just pointing out that lil tidbit.

Essence Snow.3194:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

The game is all about gold because very little in the game at level 80 isnt about getting gold.

Means to an end vs. ends to a mean. Everything about the endgame for ME is not about gold because you need very little gold to do any of the endgame content. It’s all balanced around gear that is obtained EASILY by the time you reach 80. I believe this is the mindset players need to have to adopt and enjoy GW2. It’s not a ‘goldchasing’ game because you simply don’t need huge piles of gold to play and be successful.

You can’t make generalized statements based on your perception of game rewards/economy and claim it’s ‘wrong’, unbalanced or whatever. Well, I guess you can, but you don’t really have alot of people that make a difference taking you seriously when you do.

You just did the exact thing. Made a generalized statement based on your perception. Not saying your[statement is right or wrong just pointing out that lil tidbit.

I simply stated what I think about the game and it’s intent is … I can make generalizations about myself, what and how I think. The difference is that I’m not using it to make an absolute statement about the game to claim it’s ‘wrong, unbalanced or broken’.

william dj.6953:

havent we seen this topic a number of times with the same comments.

One reason why these topics keep popping up with the same discussions is because new players or players that dont regularly read the forums are concerned about it.
Personally i dont agree with their point of view buti understand where they are coming from.
They dont know that this horse has been beaten by the player base and even got alot of Dev comments. They dont read through old topics with hundreds of comments or skim through John Smiths posts in his forum profile.
So i can understand that these players open a new topic about it. And i think you have to give John credit because he tries to explain more or less the same things over and over again towards new people. It doesnt matter, if you agree with his comments and point of view or not, at least he is trying.
Actually, i dare you to find a Dev that posts more than him. Its only Anet employees that work in community relations (Gaile, Grouch, Danicia) that might have a higher post count.

LordByron.8369:

During war people is willingly to pay absurd prices for food and medicines.

People gathering stuff to resell are consideered criminals.

This is a game and even if stuff is not needed as food would be, its basically the same thing.

Since the purpose of the game is FUN, people is forced to trade mostof their rewards in order to be able to have fun.

This is where your economy is totally wrong.

It still all supply and demand with people willing to pay at a certain price point regardless of your war analogy. We are not forced to sell our loot in this game to have fun. We all do things in game different from everyone else pending on what players have fun doing like some have fun commanding, dungeon runs, jp’s and so on.

John Smith.4610:

LordByron.8369:

During war people is willingly to pay absurd prices for food and medicines.

People gathering stuff to resell are consideered criminals.

This is a game and even if stuff is not needed as food would be, its basically the same thing.

Since the purpose of the game is FUN, people is forced to trade mostof their rewards in order to be able to have fun.

This is where your economy is totally wrong.

Wow…

John, please grant me immunity from Infractions so I can reply to that post.

Glad I came back from a break to find nothing has changed

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I would challenge you to find one game on the market where people who play the in game TP/AH aren’t the richest players in the game.

<snip>

The problem boils down to one of people. The business minded and smarter players will always have more money than the less so players. This will not change no matter what you do. People want to be equal in an unequal world, and it just won’t happen.

You’re completely right. People who play the in-game markets in other games are generally going to be the richest folks. But in many other games, that money isn’t going to buy them the shiniest of shinies (character/account bound armor/weapon drops from raids, dungeons, etc.) This is where GW2 goes wrong in many people’s opinion and why posts like these keep cropping up. There is nothing wrong with flipping. But there is something wrong when it outstrips the rewards of playing the game’s content imho. There needs to be more balance: let the TP players earn their oodles of money but conversely let people who have zero interest in TP Wars 2 take on challenging content to earn shinies that can’t be bought. Do that and I’d feel safe saying that I’d guarantee you’d hear much, much less whinging about flippers. Instead you’d hear whinging about those elitist raiders/groupers. :P

Lothirieth.3408:

There is nothing wrong with flipping. But there is something wrong when it outstrips the rewards of playing the game’s content imho. There needs to be more balance: let the TP players earn their oodles of money but conversely let people who have zero interest in TP Wars 2 take on challenging content to earn shinies that can’t be bought. Do that and I’d feel safe saying that I’d guarantee you’d hear much, much less whinging about flippers.

The game was designed around casual players, and supports casual play because the content is balanced around rare (yellow) gear or less, exotics and ascended are optional choices that make content slightly easier but are not necessary. Likewise, the TP plays a large role and gear skins are mostly tradeable so that players are not forced into a particular game mode or map to get the things they want. Most items can be bought with gold because you can exchange gems for gold, so casual players without a lot of time to grind in the game can keep up with hardcore players who spend 10 hrs a day at it.

The “flipping problem” is a side effect and mostly a function of human nature, which will continue to exist no matter what the devs do to the game. The whining is irrelevant and the cause is ignorance. There is nothing the devs can do about this, so they largely ignore it, which is the best solution to the problem.

This thread is amusing but pointless kittening about something no one can change.

shogei.8015:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

If someone who sells legit Arah paths and gets 100 gold per day, I have no problem with that because it requires skill and knowledge to solo a path. Traidingpost flipping requires neither of those. You don’t have to swing your sword once, you don’t have to know one single enemy in this game. That is simply stupid and should not be possible, especially not as most rewarding method of getting gold.

Spoken like someone who has never tried flipping. The TP is a nice, steady income if you do it right. If you don’t have “skill and knowledge” you won’t make a single silver. It actually takes a bit of knowledge about the game in order to make wise investments, otherwise you might get snookered by someone claiming that candy corns are “the bomb!”

It takes skill and knowledge. It takes skill and knowledge you could use as speculator.
It takes no skill you need to have to play a videogame on a certain skill-level. This is what bothers me. If someone makes more gold than me because he can solo Arah and sell it afterwards, then I’m ok with that. If someone makes more gold than me because he flips the traiding post, then I’m not ok with that, since flipping the traidingpost isn’t a “skill” you require to be good in a videogame.

You also keep repeating that flipping is the “most rewarding method of getting gold.” You’ve said it several times, but never backed it up with any facts. I know this is anecdotal, but the people I know who flip make more money doing dungeons, crafting and playing the mystic toilet than they do on the TP.

I’ve given an example, a theoretical one but I’ll repeat myself:

Every income in this game, exept traiding post flipping, is based on a set amount of gold. Every income is furthermore gated by time.

So for every income except traiding post flipping, this formula would apply:

Set amount of gold * time spent.

For the traiding post flippinf however, this formula applies:

Variable amount of gold * time spent.

So the problem is that, based on the starting gold you use, you can make insane an amount gold just by flipping.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I’ve given an example, a theoretical one but I’ll repeat myself:

Every income in this game, exept traiding post flipping, is based on a set amount of gold. Every income is furthermore gated by time.

So for every income except traiding post flipping, this formula would apply:

Set amount of gold * time spent.

For the traiding post flippinf however, this formula applies:

Variable amount of gold * time spent.

So the problem is that, based on the starting gold you use, you can make insane an amount gold just by flipping.

And that is justified for numerous reasons … one being the risk involved with flipping, another being the entry fee. This has all been covered before. The main difference being guaranteed return vs. not. Hence, the increased rewards for flipping. You haven’t come up with anything that hasn’t been already been addressed previously.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I’ve given an example, a theoretical one but I’ll repeat myself:

Every income in this game, exept traiding post flipping, is based on a set amount of gold. Every income is furthermore gated by time.

So for every income except traiding post flipping, this formula would apply:

Set amount of gold * time spent.

For the traiding post flippinf however, this formula applies:

Variable amount of gold * time spent.

So the problem is that, based on the starting gold you use, you can make insane an amount gold just by flipping.

The main fact that escapes you at the moment is that people who play the TP aren’t guaranteed to make money. I’m a clear example of someone who lost his shirt with bad investments in the past. I’ve been forthcoming about my losses, and have no shame in telling people that I suck at the TP. So let me correct your assumptions:

“Every income in this game, except for TP, is guaranteed that you can’t lose money.”

So your problem here is not that people can make Gold using the TP, but rather that you can’t make as much Gold as the best traders.