Guild Wars 2

Part 2:

GW1 wasn’t superb in the way you say it, it was superb in showing, how to ruin Game Balance with uncontrollable class and skill systems. Thats the reason, why we have now Weapon Skills that are preset half skill bars – to give the Devs a way to balance the game much easier. Thats the reason, why not every class has thousands of skills, but just only a few douzen instead so far.

If ANet would enable all classes to use all weapon,s we would end up again in the balancing chaos that GW1 was. HELL NO to this suggestion. Thats no improvement, that suggestion would sky rocket us back into the stone age…
No all weapons fit for all classes, think for one second about professionsl ike the Elementalist and the Engineer, these Classes would get way too many SKills compared to all other Classes due to their current class specific Features of Gameplay with the Attunements and Tools/Kits

What you want is to turn GW2 into a better graphical GW1 Clone and I’m absolutely against this. You fail to the see fundamental improvements of character progression – vertically asl ike in many ways horizontally, that Sub Classes could add to the ame, only because they simply aren’t of the GW1 “flavor”, that you had in GW1 with the Dual Classing and thats imo the only thing I can see in your complain, why you don’t like them, because they simply aren’t a copy of Dual Classing which enable you to mix everythign together with everything.

If ANet has learned something from GW1 – then not to repeat this horrible mistake to give GW2 again Dual Classing, Instead they heared on the wise suggestions of a very few persons that wanted to see a change for GW2 and suggested that Anet should give this game a class system, thats based on Single Professions, so that we don’t have again this balance chaos created through unendless skill chain recations from every single skill change that could end up in tons of unpredictable super unbalanced skill synergies in regard of which professions you combined with each other as primary and secondary profession.

timmyf.1490:

Khisanth.2948:

How does it trivialize exploration? They don’t magically become available to you(except some of the ones next to zone entrances). You still have to get there yourself at least once.

Are you saying you NEVER used fast travel in GW1?

If/when Cantha is added to the game are you going to swim through the Unending Ocean every time you want to go there?

…

How much exploring have you done in Orr? How about Southsun Cove? Sure there are waypoints but most of the time they are all contested anyway so it’s like they aren’t even there.

Just to reiterate, because I feel like nobody is understanding me:

1) I’m not saying waypoints should be removed from the existing content.
2) I do not think mounts should be added.
3) I certainly used fast travel in GW1.
4) I do not think you should have to swim across the ocean every time you want to go to Cantha.
5) I don’t explore Orr much because everything there has CC and it drives me crazy.
6) I don’t explore Southsun much because Veteran Karka = owwwww.
7) My suggestion is for INSTANCED GROUP CONTENT as a TEMPORARY way to introduce new zones and provide a sense of exploration
8) After a period of months, those zones would have Asuran waypoints and become more like the zones we have now.

Edit: and here’s the link again: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/3416638

I don’t explore Southsun because there’s nothing to see or do. There are no Vistas, there are too few Points of Interest, there are far too few Dynamic Events, and I personally wouldn’t have balked at some Renown Hearts either. Outside of harvesting runs or Queen kills, there’s really no reason at all to spend any time in Southsun.

timmyf.1490:

Just to reiterate, because I feel like nobody is understanding me:

1) I’m not saying waypoints should be removed from the existing content.
2) I do not think mounts should be added.
3) I certainly used fast travel in GW1.
4) I do not think you should have to swim across the ocean every time you want to go to Cantha.
5) I don’t explore Orr much because everything there has CC and it drives me crazy.
6) I don’t explore Southsun much because Veteran Karka = owwwww.
7) My suggestion is for INSTANCED GROUP CONTENT as a TEMPORARY way to introduce new zones and provide a sense of exploration
8) After a period of months, those zones would have Asuran waypoints and become more like the zones we have now.

Therefore I agree with you on all except for #8. Why months? We’re talking about Waypoints, not Asuran gates. The whole concept with Waypoints being built as you explore has already happened in “The Lost Shores” update where we practically rolled through the map as we were creating different settlements. For them to say now that it takes time for Asuras to create Waypoints wouldn’t make sense anymore.

darkace.8925:

I don’t explore Southsun because there’s nothing to see or do. There are no Vistas, there are too few Points of Interest, there are far too few Dynamic Events, and I personally wouldn’t have balked at some Renown Hearts either. Outside of harvesting runs or Queen kills, there’s really no reason at all to spend any time in Southsun.

Would you go to Southsun if there were events that you could warp in, spawn immediately, and complete for a chest with a guaranteed rare or two? And when you finished, you could start another chain? Up to maybe three or four paths?

That’s basically what I’m suggesting.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

Besides, you talked about lore before. They totally fit into the lore. We have cars in the game, airships, horse carriages, use animals to carry supply but we don’t have mounts we ride on / in. That just does not fit with the lore.

Of course it does. When you don’t need to train creatures to be mounts then you don’t train creatures to be mounts… it probably never occurred to them to go that route. Pack animals move slowly, so walking along side them only makes sense (they can’t use a waypoint), and fast travel always is an option for when you don’t feel like walking.

Map travel is a part of GuildWars lore, mounts aren’t.

It never occurred to them? You never noticed that they build cars and airships and helicopters. Plus why would mounts not be able to travel with it? People take a lot of stuff with them when going into a gate or using a way-point. And then there are the horse carriages all over the place. Also have a look at these pictures https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-2013/ I see Tyria citizens riding horses.

The link you gave is nothing more then a mechanic to help the player learn how it works. Pretty much the function of a tutorial. Building your whole idea of a lore around fast-travel on that while denying there is a lore for mounts seems silly to me and I really feel like you are fooling yourself here.

You might just disagree on the idea that mounts would be fun. Agree to disagree but this idea that mounts don’t fit in the lore while way-points do is just silly imho.

Romo.3709:

timmyf.1490:

8) After a period of months, those zones would have Asuran waypoints and become more like the zones we have now.

Therefore I agree with you on all except for #8. Why months? We’re talking about Waypoints, not Asuran gates. The whole concept with Waypoints being built as you explore has already happened in “The Lost Shores” update where we practically rolled through the map as we were creating different settlements. For them to say now that it takes time for Asuras to create Waypoints wouldn’t make sense anymore.

Fair. My original suggestion didn’t include the “eventually these would be regular zones” bit, but I thought it offered some interesting flair. I’m just hoping that those 8 points helped to make my ideas a little bit clearer.

timmyf.1490:

darkace.8925:

I don’t explore Southsun because there’s nothing to see or do. There are no Vistas, there are too few Points of Interest, there are far too few Dynamic Events, and I personally wouldn’t have balked at some Renown Hearts either. Outside of harvesting runs or Queen kills, there’s really no reason at all to spend any time in Southsun.

Would you go to Southsun if there were events that you could warp in, spawn immediately, and complete for a chest with a guaranteed rare or two? And when you finished, you could start another chain? Up to maybe three or four paths?

That’s basically what I’m suggesting.

Tying loot to the equation, to me, dilutes the purpose into “just another loot sidetrip” which some people will skip in favor of other ones.

Sir Cusfreak.5971:

I’m sorry, but how could waypoints “trivialize exploration” when you can only open waypoints in places you’ve already explored? If you haven’t explored somewhere, you can’t waypoint there.

They mean after the first time. You run to it once to unlock it and after that never come across much of the land because you simply way-point to your location.

Devata.6589:

Sir Cusfreak.5971:

I’m sorry, but how could waypoints “trivialize exploration” when you can only open waypoints in places you’ve already explored? If you haven’t explored somewhere, you can’t waypoint there.

They mean after the first time. You run to it once to unlock it and after that never come across much of the land because you simply way-point to your location.

I have lots of places I go once and never ever go back to again. This is not because I can just waypoint through, it’s because I don’t want to go there.

And I think you overestimate how mounts will help – I can look at the maps and see there are plenty of places it simply won’t be possible to use them to travel reliably with. Bloodtide Coast, Sparkfly Fens, Frostgorge Sound . . .

Not to mention places where the terrain isn’t level and will wind up hampering it, like through parts of Kessex Hills and Brisban Wildlands . . . not to begin with Caledon Forest and Metrica Province, where clear roads are kind of a luxury and not a given.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

Mmm I love exploring but I also have limited time- so when I am in the mood, sure I ignore way points and explore- that happens more than you would think.

I do sometimes want to maximize my time and make use of the way points I have unlocked to hit events in far flung locations though.

What I Absulotely do not want to do, is to spend my 1 hour play time running to where I want to be- I want to get there and play.

thing is I have a choice now you see?

Morrigan.2809:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

Mmm I love exploring but I also have limited time- so when I am in the mood, sure I ignore way points and explore- that happens more than you would think.

I do sometimes want to maximize my time and make use of the way points I have unlocked to hit events in far flung locations though.

What I Absulotely do not want to do, is to spend my 1 hour play time running to where I want to be- I want to get there and play.

thing is I have a choice now you see?

You remind me of “waiting for the boat” on old Everquest . . . something very few people were eager for.

Devata.6589:

It never occurred to them? You never noticed that they build cars and airships and helicopters. Plus why would mounts not be able to travel with it? People take a lot of stuff with them when going into a gate or using a way-point. And then there are the horse carriages all over the place. Also have a look at these pictures https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-2013/ I see Tyria citizens riding horses.

The link you gave is nothing more then a mechanic to help the player learn how it works. Pretty much the function of a tutorial. Building your whole idea of a lore around fast-travel on that while denying there is a lore for mounts seems silly to me and I really feel like you are fooling yourself here.

You might just disagree on the idea that mounts would be fun. Agree to disagree but this idea that mounts don’t fit in the lore while way-points do is just silly imho.

Riding mounts is not “exploration”. It’s a fast forward for people that hate exploration.
Mounts would be fun for people that hate running around maps and RP-ers.
Mounting would practically kill exploration as we know it.

Morrigan.2809:

What I Absulotely do not want to do, is to spend my 1 hour play time running to where I want to be- I want to get there and play.

thing is I have a choice now you see?

I totally agree. The idea here is that the journey is the gameplay. You don’t travel to reach the endpoint, you travel. Period. That’s it. The exploration is the gameplay.

You spend your 1 hour exploring. And then you’re done.

I feel like I’m failing at explaining it, sadly.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

Mounts and other fast-travel options would then come to mind. Fast travel points to a few towns in a map (we have those big airships in GW2’s lore that would do just fine for that) and then on the ground you use mounds for the last part.

Then you still have the feel of exploration but are also still able to get to your friends pretty fast.

No you wouldn’t. You’d have the feeling of “kitten , this is taking too long to join my guildies for guld missions” or you’d have a case where something that wasn’t broken was replaced for something less convenient and totally unnecessary. There’s no sense of exploration when you’re passing through familiar territory to meet up with someone. Exploration is going somewhere new or unfamiliar, and we do that now quite nicely on foot. Mounts would actually remove some of that sense of exploration because we’d be covering new ground much faster, and even worse, we’d be missing the little things in our rush to see it all. Little hidden caves, holes in the ground that start events, they’d all be raced past in a hurry during “exploration” when you’d be more likely to find things on foot, as we do now.

If a new, waypoint-free zone opened up and people had fast mounts they’d be back in no time saying they explored the entire zone, yet odds are they wouldn’t have seen a thing while doing so. Mounts ruin exploration by hurrying you through places you hadn’t been before.

Funny enough I miss more stuff in GW2 (like little caves) then I did in most MMO’s because when leveling it’s a list of location I need to go to so I just run to all of them to unlock them, crossing of the list (at least after my first character) and it’s much more of a rush. Many mmo’s don’t guide you true the world with locations you have to vised but by giving quest you do so then you are much more exploring.

Now once I have unlocked the locations and way-points you are much more likely to then just use a way-point. So in practice I notice quite the opposite.

Because you are covering ground much faster with a mount when you are going somewhere and you see something in the corner of your eye (what will not happen if you way-point somewhere) you might investigate it. Especially because you go faster.

So you can say mounts ruin exploration by hurrying you through places but thats not a fact in any way. For my I hurry more with ‘exploration’ or rather crossing of a list of locations in GW2 that exploration on mounts in other mmo’s. And after that if I missed something in GW2 it’s much more likely I will see it another time because I won’t come there another time.

Devata.6589:

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

Besides, you talked about lore before. They totally fit into the lore. We have cars in the game, airships, horse carriages, use animals to carry supply but we don’t have mounts we ride on / in. That just does not fit with the lore.

Of course it does. When you don’t need to train creatures to be mounts then you don’t train creatures to be mounts… it probably never occurred to them to go that route. Pack animals move slowly, so walking along side them only makes sense (they can’t use a waypoint), and fast travel always is an option for when you don’t feel like walking.

Map travel is a part of GuildWars lore, mounts aren’t.

It never occurred to them? You never noticed that they build cars and airships and helicopters. Plus why would mounts not be able to travel with it? People take a lot of stuff with them when going into a gate or using a way-point. And then there are the horse carriages all over the place. Also have a look at these pictures https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-2013/ I see Tyria citizens riding horses.

The link you gave is nothing more then a mechanic to help the player learn how it works. Pretty much the function of a tutorial. Building your whole idea of a lore around fast-travel on that while denying there is a lore for mounts seems silly to me and I really feel like you are fooling yourself here.

You might just disagree on the idea that mounts would be fun. Agree to disagree but this idea that mounts don’t fit in the lore while way-points do is just silly imho.

They build machines of war, not personal travel. There’s a difference. I want to carry this humongous gun over there and blow something up… dolyak says no.

skullmount.1758:

VOLKON.1290:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

What’s funny is that after playing for years in the original Guild Wars I disagree. I mean, you have to explore as it is to get to the waypoints, but the thought of tedious runs across zones to try and get somewhere you’ve already been… it seems like a step backwards, and if that were to happen in GW2 you’d find the very next hour people demanding mounts or some other means to get around faster. Map travel has always been a part of GW, even included in the lore of the game (there’s a quest you get from a kid who claims his mother invented map travel in Elona if I recall).

I don’t think any exploration is trivialized at all… you still need to walk to where you’ve never been. But the added convenience to get to where you’ve already been… I love that.

My thoughts mirror this as well.
What happens if you are doing the exploring that you want, and a friend wants/needs help doing something. First they’ll have wait till you run there. Then after you finish helping the friend, you’ll need to: 1)remember where you were (granted that already kinda happens even with the waypoints) and 2) run all the way back there. All that time running could mean much more exploring you could get done.

The wilderness zone idea is interesting, but what happens if an actual zone is released that takes up the space next to where those portals into the wilderness zones “lead” to? Are those zones temporary? or do they continue on in that next map released (thus kind always ‘leading’ out to unexplorable portions of the world map?

Maybe a travel to a friend option could help in some situation. At least a travel to guild options (having at least a few guild-members in one spot) would be nice. But overall I never found this getting to a friend a big problem, also not in other mmo’s without way points. Thats where mounts come in.

timmyf.1490:

Morrigan.2809:

What I Absulotely do not want to do, is to spend my 1 hour play time running to where I want to be- I want to get there and play.

thing is I have a choice now you see?

I totally agree. The idea here is that the journey is the gameplay. You don’t travel to reach the endpoint, you travel. Period. That’s it. The exploration is the gameplay.

You spend your 1 hour exploring. And then you’re done.

I feel like I’m failing at explaining it, sadly.

The problem isn’t your idea. The problem is that some people use your idea to push their love for mounts which would in the end completely go against the idea you have in the first place.
They see “exploration” as getting though the map on a shiny mount. I see exploration as going around, jumping on boulders and mountain sides while falling down cracks and holes. Two worlds clash unleashing an argument we’re having right now.

timmyf.1490:

Morrigan.2809:

What I Absulotely do not want to do, is to spend my 1 hour play time running to where I want to be- I want to get there and play.

thing is I have a choice now you see?

I totally agree. The idea here is that the journey is the gameplay. You don’t travel to reach the endpoint, you travel. Period. That’s it. The exploration is the gameplay.

You spend your 1 hour exploring. And then you’re done.

I feel like I’m failing at explaining it, sadly.

yes sure I agree- which is why I have never had a problem finding things to do in game.
still you know, sometimes you just want to hit say ? Hydra Queen because you need some ecto’s and then- what?

you are in Fire Heart Rise because you felt nostalgic last night?

Way points definitely have their uses.

Btw my all time favorite thing in this game is just exploring and wandering around but someone has to pay the bills.
So I get those things over as quickly as possible so I can get back to playing content I love

timmyf.1490:

I totally agree. The idea here is that the journey is the gameplay. You don’t travel to reach the endpoint, you travel. Period. That’s it. The exploration is the gameplay.

You spend your 1 hour exploring. And then you’re done.

I feel like I’m failing at explaining it, sadly.

Should just cite “Journey” the game. (The recent one). Or Myst, where most of the game was about the spectacle the mind-bending puzzles were set inside.

Here’s the thing though, if you design heavily to the journey being the gameplay, you’re going to draw fire from people who “don’t get it” or are not wanting to run across the whole of the forest just to reach the other side for the umpteenth time.

The Waypoints’ existence is a convenience factor, but not just for the lazy “I don’t want to walk a hundred feet” (therein lies losing a lot of your income to Waypoint travel fees, by the way). It’s for:

- The people who are off on their own thing and the guild wants to do something elsewhere they also want to be in on. Waypoint over and meet them in roughly five minutes.
- The people who log off in Lion’s Arch after clearing out their bags and want to get back to the edges of where they were exploring before without needing to retrack over places they’ve already been through.
- The people who don’t want to deal with dredge/centaur/Svanir roadblocks or other speedbumps when they just want to get somewhere.
- The people who have limited time that night and just want to hit world bosses with friends.

I hope I’m getting the point across. Waypoints exist for a reason, but their utilization is by people with a variety of reasons for using their convenience factor. Removing them for the sake of exploration (which a lot of players might not even want to have forced on them) seems . . . to be adding some fresh new vibrant color to the Mona Lisa.

Romo.3709:

timmyf.1490:

Morrigan.2809:

What I Absulotely do not want to do, is to spend my 1 hour play time running to where I want to be- I want to get there and play.

thing is I have a choice now you see?

I totally agree. The idea here is that the journey is the gameplay. You don’t travel to reach the endpoint, you travel. Period. That’s it. The exploration is the gameplay.

You spend your 1 hour exploring. And then you’re done.

I feel like I’m failing at explaining it, sadly.

The problem isn’t your idea. The problem is that some people use your idea to push their love for mounts which would in the end completely go against the idea you have in the first place.
They see “exploration” as getting though the map on a shiny mount. I see exploration as going around, jumping on boulders and mountain sides while falling down cracks and holes. Two worlds clash unleashing an argument we’re having right now.

I have never said anything even remotely in favour on mounts- I think they will not work for GW2.
I do think way points give us the option to explore or not

Devata.6589:

skullmount.1758:

VOLKON.1290:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

What’s funny is that after playing for years in the original Guild Wars I disagree. I mean, you have to explore as it is to get to the waypoints, but the thought of tedious runs across zones to try and get somewhere you’ve already been… it seems like a step backwards, and if that were to happen in GW2 you’d find the very next hour people demanding mounts or some other means to get around faster. Map travel has always been a part of GW, even included in the lore of the game (there’s a quest you get from a kid who claims his mother invented map travel in Elona if I recall).

I don’t think any exploration is trivialized at all… you still need to walk to where you’ve never been. But the added convenience to get to where you’ve already been… I love that.

My thoughts mirror this as well.
What happens if you are doing the exploring that you want, and a friend wants/needs help doing something. First they’ll have wait till you run there. Then after you finish helping the friend, you’ll need to: 1)remember where you were (granted that already kinda happens even with the waypoints) and 2) run all the way back there. All that time running could mean much more exploring you could get done.

The wilderness zone idea is interesting, but what happens if an actual zone is released that takes up the space next to where those portals into the wilderness zones “lead” to? Are those zones temporary? or do they continue on in that next map released (thus kind always ‘leading’ out to unexplorable portions of the world map?

Maybe a travel to a friend option could help in some situation. At least a travel to guild options (having at least a few guild-members in one spot) would be nice. But overall I never found this getting to a friend a big problem, also not in other mmo’s without way points. Thats where mounts come in.

You seem to have this need to add a buttload of different little systems in order to accommodate the unnecessary and unneeded mounts. We have a system in place that works well with the existing lore of the game, and on top of that you add the nightmares of any other game with mounts relating to the kittening, the trolling (placing mounts on NPCs for example so people can’t access them) etc. Sir Occam is twitching nervously in his grave at the very thought of this.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Delivery is as important as the message. If you’re being a . . . well, female dog . . . about how you tell someone something is wrong? They’re not going to take it seriously. Some maturity is required to temper the edge lest the message be lost in the reaction of “this one’s so rude”.

I would believe this if the reactions to player feedback/rudness were remotely consistent.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It was based off wargaming, where most things we think of these days as essential to RPGs didn’t exist. And it still exists in some form because “that’s the way it’s always been”. Though recent editions have tried to staple over it.

Well, in wargaming it was more applicable because it was a very strategic/mechanical type of game. You had scientists like H.G.Wells playing war-games in a very scientific way. But when the modern RPG came out, they tried to represent adventure in the best systematic & consistent way they could. I think it would be interesting to move on from ridged/scientific stats into something less quantifiable & more adventurous. Granted, it’s probably too late for that in GW. But what I do know: stats are boring.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Want to know a secret? Those things are not fun to the person on the other side. So, don’t forget that.

that would be why I said:
“Honestly the current control is almost completely useless in PvE…”

There is something that is totally unsatisfying about control in GW2 even when it works & I think it’s from a heavy-handed PvP mentality.

I think before they start to think about new skills, branching classes & new interaction, they need to stop centering the PvE content around PvP. They learned this lesson in GW1 & said they were going to apply it in GW2, then reneged. The fact that it’s been a year & a half & they haven’t even touched that gap (the tiny splits they’ve made are not noticeable to me as a PvE player) worries me. This is probably one of the reasons I “voted” for housing & character personality/visuals as my progression. I think the combat needs to evolve way faster than it has before we can figure out how to add new skills or specialties. The slow combat iteration is way way way too slow. I think it may actually be hampering things because at the current rate they will never address major issues like condition damage, control & support.

Morrigan.2809:

I have never said anything even remotely in favour on mounts- I think they will not work for GW2.
I do think way points give us the option to explore or not

Right. And to take away that option would be game breaking. Sadly, the second people saw “no waypoints” they jumped on the mount-train discussion…

Romo.3709:

timmyf.1490:

Morrigan.2809:

What I Absulotely do not want to do, is to spend my 1 hour play time running to where I want to be- I want to get there and play.

thing is I have a choice now you see?

I totally agree. The idea here is that the journey is the gameplay. You don’t travel to reach the endpoint, you travel. Period. That’s it. The exploration is the gameplay.

You spend your 1 hour exploring. And then you’re done.

I feel like I’m failing at explaining it, sadly.

The problem isn’t your idea. The problem is that some people use your idea to push their love for mounts which would in the end completely go against the idea you have in the first place.
They see “exploration” as getting though the map on a shiny mount. I see exploration as going around, jumping on boulders and mountain sides while falling down cracks and holes. Two worlds clash unleashing an argument we’re having right now.

I agree. I really like your idea and I thought your eight point post cleared up a lot of what people seem to be trying to use as additional validation for adding mounts.

Personally, I hated mounts. I never used them for exploration and it drove me nuts trying to get places. I absolutely love Asura gates and waypoints. However, I’m a frugal person and prefer to run everywhere if I have the time. But when I am trying to get from one world boss to another, they sure come in handy. Or when I am champ farming. Or during the Scarlet Invasions. Or when I want to complete JPs for the monthly achievement. Or when…

Edit: I want to add that the number of times I hopped a griffon set it in a direction and walked away because it would take ten minutes to fly where I needed to go…let me just say, it was way too many and never once did I look down to see what I was missing…

timmyf.1490:

Devata.6589:

And there might also be less need to in a way ‘force’ people to explore. You know that when you are completing a map by running to all the vista’s, POI, hearts and so on. They could remove many of those letting exploration feel much more as something you keep doing while you go instead of it being a list that you have to cross of as you level up to then never visit it again.

It also means that you are even less likely to really explore the area. You just run from one point to another when crossing of the list.

Very true. To extend the conversation, Orr has unique mechanics: there are no Hearts, there are Temples, and there are huge DE chains which must be done to open certain areas.

When we start to venture out into new areas, should the mechanics be the same as Orr? Or should they be different?

I’m no fan of Hearts, so I’d prefer leaving them out. As far as the DE chains, what we’ve seen is that players tend to ignore them. Or worse, they try to exploit the events by not completing them or letting them fail. What other options are available?

Having zones with events that are more like traditional quests could be one interesting option. Let me stick with my idea of waypoint-less instanced “wilderness zones.”

When you enter the zone, there could be a few NPCs. Each has a different objective: rescue somebody who is lost, kill a champion, escort a group, etc. You can talk to them and fire off an event. These events would probably have special rewards beyond normal events – perhaps like you get with world bosses.

You could stay in the zone and keep completing these events as long as your party remains alive. Because there are no waypoints, a wipe means you have to leave the zone and start over.

Because each of the events starts from the entrance, there’s no need to “run” to the events. You don’t need mounts. It’s just a launchpad for other content.

I only played GW1 for a couple years, but this is a bit like the Underworld content, if I remember correctly.

While I do like your idea of way-pointless maps with dynamic events but also more traditional quest. As long as it are really quest-chains. But there are 2 elements I personally don’t like about the idea.

1 it being an instance. Why not real maps that are build like that? Many (traditional) quest can be done individual but also as a group so I don’t see the need for it being an separate instance (it’s that instanced based element that I also did not like in GW1). I like an mmo because of the open world idea and while I agree some elements should be in instances like dungeons and raids and maybe some other stuff. This for me personally would be good just for a normal map.

2 It’s only one map in stead of part of the whole world (because it’s in instance) so the quest would not help you to explore the whole world just this one area. I always liked it how you start doing a quest and that leads to another quest and so on and so on and by the time you end the quest-chain you went from a crowded place in a city through multiple maps ending up in some abandoned sunken ship. Thats the fun of exploring for me. Something I do mis in GW2.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I hope I’m getting the point across. Waypoints exist for a reason, but their utilization is by people with a variety of reasons for using their convenience factor. Removing them for the sake of exploration (which a lot of players might not even want to have forced on them) seems . . . to be adding some fresh new vibrant color to the Mona Lisa.

I see what you’re saying.

I do not want to REMOVE waypoints.

I want to add new content built without waypoints in mind.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

And it might be fine for your the statement of lore and immersion just don’t seem to fit the facts. How is clicking on a map and then seeing a loading screen in any way more immersion then needing to really travel there inside of the game. About the lore I also said enough. It simply does not fit the lore that we do not have mounts.

Well that’s blatantly false. The lore is map travel, as demonstrated in the link you seem to have willingly ignored. Mounts aren’t in the lore at all. They’re not in the original Guild Wars nor are they in GW2.

You’re also rather dishonestly ignoring the fact that mounts actually detract from exploration by allowing you to quickly go through unexplored areas, which results in you missing the things that you’d find on foot. You speed through on a mount, think you’ve explored it all and ultimately you haven’t actually seen a thing. I’ve come across so many things walking about in new territory that would have easily been missed had I been racing by.

I did not ignore anything. I go b the comments one by one and at the point you write this simply had not come to your comment. By now I have already reacted on both. So maybe just give me some more time to react before accusing me of willingly ignored you. In all honestly, I do think it’s kinda rude to talk that way.

timmyf.1490:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I hope I’m getting the point across. Waypoints exist for a reason, but their utilization is by people with a variety of reasons for using their convenience factor. Removing them for the sake of exploration (which a lot of players might not even want to have forced on them) seems . . . to be adding some fresh new vibrant color to the Mona Lisa.

I see what you’re saying.

I do not want to REMOVE waypoints.

I want to add new content built without waypoints in mind.

I understand the idea you have and I think you have a right thing in mind. But eventually I want them to go back to the point that it will eventually become a regular map with waypoints. Because frankly from experiences we’ve had till now, unless the area is some kind of amazing new zone that’s everything we’ve ever wanted, it’ll become another Southsun Cove. A dead area. Putting in waypoints, points of interest and Vistas in addition to a jumping puzzle or two will make it much more enjoyable. Hell pop some hearts in there for verity.

timmyf.1490:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I hope I’m getting the point across. Waypoints exist for a reason, but their utilization is by people with a variety of reasons for using their convenience factor. Removing them for the sake of exploration (which a lot of players might not even want to have forced on them) seems . . . to be adding some fresh new vibrant color to the Mona Lisa.

I see what you’re saying.

I do not want to REMOVE waypoints.

I want to add new content built without waypoints in mind.

totally agree.. If they add the Crystal desert I think it would be amazing if it were 3 huge zones that only had 1 entrance WP. It would add to the feel of the epic wasteland.

Because frankly from experiences we’ve had till now, unless the area is some kind of amazing new zone that’s everything we’ve ever wanted, it’ll become another Southsun Cove. A dead area.

The problem with Southsun has nothing to do with waypoints & everything to do with a boring map. Events are lame, there are like 10 of them, there are no rewards, no secrets 1 JP, no achievements, only 2 types of new enemies & the main one is totally frustratingly zerg-based & the other is annoying confusion/stun lock … it doesn’t even look that interesting. I mean it’s well crafted, but it’s all just coral. The problems with SS are way beyond waypoints.

timmyf.1490:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I hope I’m getting the point across. Waypoints exist for a reason, but their utilization is by people with a variety of reasons for using their convenience factor. Removing them for the sake of exploration (which a lot of players might not even want to have forced on them) seems . . . to be adding some fresh new vibrant color to the Mona Lisa.

I see what you’re saying.

I do not want to REMOVE waypoints.

I want to add new content built without waypoints in mind.

I don’t think content is built with waypoint in mind, but simply as to whether or not it’s fun content. The waypoint system is a great convenience, allows still for exploring – both initially and at will if you wish to wander, an certainly shouldn’t be gutted for the sake of adding extra and unnecessary systems simply to squeeze mounts into a game where they’re not needed.

timmyf.1490:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I hope I’m getting the point across. Waypoints exist for a reason, but their utilization is by people with a variety of reasons for using their convenience factor. Removing them for the sake of exploration (which a lot of players might not even want to have forced on them) seems . . . to be adding some fresh new vibrant color to the Mona Lisa.

I see what you’re saying.

I do not want to REMOVE waypoints.
I want to add new content built without waypoints in mind.

I have no problem with that- I’d think of it as a wilderness and as my character as a pioneer.

I do have a problem with the fact that you said the dreaded words- instanced group content.

make it open-world and add objectives where people can make small bases etc and it would be amazing- at least to me.

my apologies if I missed something of the kind but as I said, limited time- there is no way that I can keep up with this discussion

DarksunG.9537:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Delivery is as important as the message. If you’re being a . . . well, female dog . . . about how you tell someone something is wrong? They’re not going to take it seriously. Some maturity is required to temper the edge lest the message be lost in the reaction of “this one’s so rude”.

I would believe this if the reactions to player feedback/rudness were remotely consistent.

I don’t think my point there was solely about this company, or any other one. It’s just a general observation. If you want to get heard and not have the listener’s brain dismiss it out of hand because you were disrespectful or confrontational . . . you should try to temper the edge down to something not likely to bounce off “oh they’re just being a burro”.

Well, in wargaming it was more applicable because it was a very strategic/mechanical type of game. You had scientists like H.G.Wells playing war-games in a very scientific way. But when the modern RPG came out, they tried to represent adventure in the best systematic & consistent way they could. I think it would be interesting to move on from ridged/scientific stats into something less quantifiable & more adventurous. Granted, it’s probably too late for that in GW. But what I do know: stats are boring.

Here’s the thing, the modern RPG has so much to trace back to Dungeons & Dragons, the original form. And despite that it’s almost the standard to have statistics and dice instead of . . . not. Oh sure, those games exist. I can name maybe one off the top of my head, though, and they’re so niche titles because they don’t quite work the same way. They behave less like “games” and more like “improv theatre with your friends”.

I’m going to reiterate: There’s nothing wrong with that. But statistics have a reason to exist in games, and they’re not solely to limit creativity.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Want to know a secret? Those things are not fun to the person on the other side. So, don’t forget that.

that would be why I said:
“Honestly the current control is almost completely useless in PvE…”

There is something that is totally unsatisfying about control in GW2 even when it works & I think it’s from a heavy-handed PvP mentality.

It’s hardly surprising as the game is designed so they don’t need to split PvP and PvE as incredibly as they did in GW1. And they probably are still going to have to do that.

Orpheal.8263:

Part 1: @ Shakkara

Snip rant vs. Sub Classes

You forget, that ANet has to go sure, that the Game stays at all times easy to balance and clear. Something that you most likely never will be able to guarantee with gameplay mechanisms that you want so badly – a 100 percent super perfect free character diversification, that simply allows everything.

You will never find something like this in MMO’s and you know that! And why do you know this? Because you know as good as me, that a game, that simply allows everything is totally unbalanceable!!.

Oh funny, cause there already have been so many online games that DO HAVE THIS.

Ultima Online (spend 720 skillpoints any way you choose between 50+ skills that go from 0 to 120, many skills may allow you to use spells or special weapon abilities)
The Secret World (spend ability points to unlock abilities, which have a variable cost associated with them ranging from 1 point to 500 points. From the selection of unlocked abilities, pick 7 active and 7 passive abilities at will from a total pool of 700+ abilities; weapons have a skillset just like GW2, but you can mix and match from a pool of 56 abilities for each weapon!)
Nodiatis (dualclassing with 26 classes, then customize character further by speccing in roughly 100 different skills and then build 3 decks of 50 abilities out of 500+ abilities)

I don’t feel like addressing the rest of your post as it is obviously blatantly false and the above examples illustrate that GW2’s character development system is lacking AND that a deep system doesn’t have to become an unbalanced or unintuitive mess – The Secret World is widely regarded as a very intuitive and easy to understand character development system.

Shakkara.2641:

Oh funny, cause there already have been so many online games that DO HAVE THIS.

Ultima Online (spend 720 skillpoints any way you choose between 50+ skills that go from 0 to 120, many skills may allow you to use spells or special weapon abilities)

Well, when I was playing you could indeed have any skills you wanted 0-100. So long as you had at least Magery 60 so you could Recall without fail if attacked. And Resist Magic 100 so you might resist Paralysis or Poison. And if you were using an axe it really was good for you to have Lumberjacking 100 for the bonus damage. And while you’re doing that, it might make sense for you to get Hiding as high as you can so you can likewise evade pursuers. Still hope you have Magery though so you can actually escape with the time you bought hiding behind a tree.

But sure, you could have any skills you wanted. Or you could be anything other than “dead meat” to the PvP players who might run into you around that precious Valorite vein you are after.

Romo.3709:

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

Mounts and other fast-travel options would then come to mind. Fast travel points to a few towns in a map (we have those big airships in GW2’s lore that would do just fine for that) and then on the ground you use mounds for the last part.

Then you still have the feel of exploration but are also still able to get to your friends pretty fast.

No you wouldn’t. You’d have the feeling of “kitten , this is taking too long to join my guildies for guild missions” or you’d have a case where something that wasn’t broken was replaced for something less convenient and totally unnecessary. There’s no sense of exploration when you’re passing through familiar territory to meet up with someone. Exploration is going somewhere new or unfamiliar, and we do that now quite nicely on foot. Mounts would actually remove some of that sense of exploration because we’d be covering new ground much faster, and even worse, we’d be missing the little things in our rush to see it all. Little hidden caves, holes in the ground that start events, they’d all be raced past in a hurry during “exploration” when you’d be more likely to find things on foot, as we do now.

If a new, waypoint-free zone opened up and people had fast mounts they’d be back in no time saying they explored the entire zone, yet odds are they wouldn’t have seen a thing while doing so. Mounts ruin exploration by hurrying you through places you hadn’t been before.

I couldn’t agree more. Exploration is a choice. Some of us make that choice by actually exploring the areas to their fullest. Some of us complain that Waypoints somehow take away will of exploration. Some of us see it as an excuse to get mounts. There’s an old saying that’s been around for years.

“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”

And I can’t stress that enough. Just like Aye.8392 stated:

Aye.8392:

Do you love it when you open a map of Orr and 3/4 of the WPs are contested? Do you think, “Oh yes, finally, I get to run around on this map!” Or do you groan to yourself?

To introduce mounts while taking Waypoints away would make this game into another WoW. It’s basically saying: “How can I make this more inconvenient for you?”.
Mounts that would speed up travel would completely diminish what you’d state as “Exploration”. We wouldn’t see a map as an area we can go around and explore, it would be more of a highway of mounts, where the map would be considered as a “travel distance” rather than a place to explore.
So again, exploration is a choice. If you really want to explore the maps, do so. Don’t use it as another reason to bring up mounts.

But then the questions is.. Isn’t it broken?

By adding mounts you are not making it much more inconvenient. If you would just remove all way-points (or don’t add them in a new maps) yes then you are correct but if you replace it by something else it’s not that big of a inconvenient anymore. Of course it would always take longer then a way point but does that mean it’s better?

We could also just give you everything in the game from the start. No need to level or do events or explore or collect or whatever. You have everything from the start. much more convenient but that does not make it more fun.

And to come back to don’t fix what isn’t broken.
Maybe that is exactly what Anet did here. Many mmo’s have a good solution for it and then Anet did try to fix it while it wasn’t broken. Now some people do think this new system might be a little broken.

timmyf.1490:

Khisanth.2948:

How does it trivialize exploration? They don’t magically become available to you(except some of the ones next to zone entrances). You still have to get there yourself at least once.

Are you saying you NEVER used fast travel in GW1?

If/when Cantha is added to the game are you going to swim through the Unending Ocean every time you want to go there?

…

How much exploring have you done in Orr? How about Southsun Cove? Sure there are waypoints but most of the time they are all contested anyway so it’s like they aren’t even there.

Just to reiterate, because I feel like nobody is understanding me:

1) I’m not saying waypoints should be removed from the existing content.
2) I do not think mounts should be added.
3) I certainly used fast travel in GW1.
4) I do not think you should have to swim across the ocean every time you want to go to Cantha.
5) I don’t explore Orr much because everything there has CC and it drives me crazy.
6) I don’t explore Southsun much because Veteran Karka = owwwww.
7) My suggestion is for INSTANCED GROUP CONTENT as a TEMPORARY way to introduce new zones and provide a sense of exploration
8) After a period of months, those zones would have Asuran waypoints and become more like the zones we have now.

Edit: and here’s the link again: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/3416638

hmm personally I don’t like this so much..

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t think my point there was solely about this company, or any other one. It’s just a general observation. If you want to get heard and not have the listener’s brain dismiss it out of hand because you were disrespectful or confrontational . . . you should try to temper the edge down to something not likely to bounce off “oh they’re just being a burro”.

Yeah, it’s just egregious here & I’m getting sick of it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Here’s the thing, the modern RPG has so much to trace back to Dungeons & Dragons, the original form. And despite that it’s almost the standard to have statistics and dice instead of . . . not. Oh sure, those games exist. I can name maybe one off the top of my head, though, and they’re so niche titles because they don’t quite work the same way. They behave less like “games” and more like “improv theatre with your friends”.

I’m going to reiterate: There’s nothing wrong with that. But statistics have a reason to exist in games, and they’re not solely to limit creativity.

I’m not really sure what you’re saying? lol. like, i don’t know if you agree or not.. I guess my point is: stats are boring.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s hardly surprising as the game is designed so they don’t need to split PvP and PvE as incredibly as they did in GW1.

I guess I just don’t agree with that statement. I think the lack of the split in this game is a massive issue. I think it is totally central to the brokenness of the PvE DPS meta. The fact that it’s a year & a half in with no massive change is dumbfounding. It’s the main reason that people have problems with the lack of roles & focus on Zerker. And worst of all, it makes support & control not fun. Again, when I play a control wizard in NWO, It’s super fun.. i’m throwing guys around, choking them like Darth Vader & freezing them in ice blocks. With my base moves! In GW2, turning a mob to stone for 1½ seconds with my Elite is not fun.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Sir Cusfreak.5971:

I’m sorry, but how could waypoints “trivialize exploration” when you can only open waypoints in places you’ve already explored? If you haven’t explored somewhere, you can’t waypoint there.

They mean after the first time. You run to it once to unlock it and after that never come across much of the land because you simply way-point to your location.

I have lots of places I go once and never ever go back to again. This is not because I can just waypoint through, it’s because I don’t want to go there.

And I think you overestimate how mounts will help – I can look at the maps and see there are plenty of places it simply won’t be possible to use them to travel reliably with. Bloodtide Coast, Sparkfly Fens, Frostgorge Sound . . .

Not to mention places where the terrain isn’t level and will wind up hampering it, like through parts of Kessex Hills and Brisban Wildlands . . . not to begin with Caledon Forest and Metrica Province, where clear roads are kind of a luxury and not a given.

Thats the whole problem. You do not want to be at another location then your destination. But when you would go by road you might see something new along the way and decide to have a look. At least thats what happens to me a lot when using a mount to go somewhere in other mmo’s. Plus you also notice how big the world is.

Personally I don’t know why mounts would not work in those locations however I can imagine that no way-points and the introduction of mounts would be more something for new maps.

When I see this thread and read through it, I’m proud to see, how my passion for Sub Classes being added infected so many other people already, leading to the point, that they brought up together some of the greatest ideas I’ve read so far since ages.
Things in detail, I would have never come up with in years self.
This brainstorming effect of this thread is just absolutely brilliant.

More fabulous is it, how we can see here, how people interact with all the ideas of others and reinvent and improve them even with their own ideas and suggestions, spinning them like a thread into their own thoughts to the point, that they try also to merge various ideas together if possible, like a an idea fusion making out of 1 + 1 + 1 just 1 big whole overall idea, that includes the best of the best together with the help of the Devs that lead our way with their interesting questions that let us think into different directions and draw our attention to the right things to think about, like a police officer, that just controls the flow of the traffic on a crossroad ^^

When I started to post in this thread with my idea of horizontal progression based on Sub Classes, I wold have never thought about it, how all of this could end up now nearly 60 PAGES later and hwat all for great ideas this little thought could produce with the help of the Devs, that we are now to far to link the idea of Sub Classes together with a overall progression under the term of having real “Journeys”, that twine also all the lore and many other things into this to describe the systems ect. all ,why all of this is suddenly there.

I can just only again say, that I’m really amazed by what has come out so far out of this thread and I’m sure, that we will see a bombastic result out of all this, which will blow our minds, once we reach finalyl the point in this whole CDI, where the Devs finally do some straight talking and we hear more about, what their plans are to do with the game out of all our massive inspirations we gave them with this CDI.

What they think is all possible to do, what they think is impossible to do from our ideas out of various reasons, like ressources, costs, time, game mechanics being unprogrammable with the game engine, ect. pp and so on, because that is also something, what is I think isvery interesting and is most likely also something, what we want to know more about. – more direct and honest feedback about the ideas.

Thats the reason why I believe, that very much people are already eagerly awaiting the posting of Chris, where he starts to talk about his concrete proposal.
The 6th January is already over since a week and a day and I think, its time to find slowly finally to the next step of this CDI.
Another week and a day from today, we get to see the next patch and I think until this dayhas come, it should be clear for us all, what kind of “GOALS” the Dev have set up for the game at least the first half of 2014 and what they think is possible to implement from all our ideas within 2014, be it either in the first half of the year, or the second half.

After that has been made, I think its time to start the next CDI Thread, I think one that should focus on either PvP or WvW.

What do you guys think? Anyone else, who thinks, nearly 60 pages of Suggestions are more than enough for this CDI and that we should get slowly to the next step soon?

I wanna see again Colin making a blogpost, we he just talks about all the promising stuff, that we can expect to see getting implemented into GW2 within the next 6 months.
That way we will know, where we are standing now, which features we could await with pleasure to be implemented and who knows what might be under all of them, that could have been suggested here in this CDI.

Morrigan.2809:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

Mmm I love exploring but I also have limited time- so when I am in the mood, sure I ignore way points and explore- that happens more than you would think.

I do sometimes want to maximize my time and make use of the way points I have unlocked to hit events in far flung locations though.

What I Absulotely do not want to do, is to spend my 1 hour play time running to where I want to be- I want to get there and play.

thing is I have a choice now you see?

It’s not so much a choice because walking is not a viable option. It just takes way to long. Now with mounts it would indeed be more of an option. Just reducing the number of way-points and adding mounts would also be an option. Then there really are options.

Devata.6589:

But then the questions is.. Isn’t it broken?

By adding mounts you are not making it much more inconvenient. If you would just remove all way-points (or don’t add them in a new maps) yes then you are correct but if you replace it by something else it’s not that big of a inconvenient anymore. Of course it would always take longer then a way point but does that mean it’s better?

Assuming you mean “does that mean it’s not better?” otherwise this makes no sense. I outlined a few reasons Waypoints are used, but here’s some reasons more why mounts might not work well:

- Terrain is often variable or uneven. As I said, trying to get a horse or whatever through Caledon Forest in places, or Metrica Province seems like an incredible hassle. Not to mention a very likely trouble with Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen, or a large part of Mount Maelstrom.

- Invariably, they’re a status symbol. Always. Even in games where mounts were plentiful (Ultima Online) there were, yes, mounts which held higher status than others. Not so much a definite problem so much as something to be aware of . . . they carry rather deep ingrained negative connotations in the genre to so many. Much like the actual, honest profession of “Player Killing in the wild”.

- Travel times become invariably, inescapably inflated to the point it can be exclusive to take part in things simply because “i’ll never get there reasonably fast”.

We could also just give you everything in the game from the start. No need to level or do events or explore or collect or whatever. You have everything from the start. much more convenient but that does not make it more fun.

This is a bit hyperbolic as a counterargument, and weakens your case a bit to resort to it.

By the way, you also just nearly described Ultima Online. And yes, it was fun right up until you were traveling and got “halberd to the face” for whatever you might have on you. Or for the laughs.

And to come back to don’t fix what isn’t broken.
Maybe that is exactly what Anet did here. Many mmo’s have a good solution for it and then Anet did try to fix it while it wasn’t broken. Now some people do think this new system might be a little broken.

No, it was a broken thing. There is long a tradition of travel needing to cost time or else the player isn’t punished enough. The boat rides and massive open areas of Everquest, primarily come to mind. Which only got worse until they chucked it out the window in “Planes of Power” with the travel books.

It was broken, it was patched together with some solder and duct tape. Guild Wars 2 manages to do it better with some superglue and a clamp to get a tight fit.

Let’s not go back to “waiting for the boat to ride it for a half hour”.

Devata.6589:

But then the questions is.. Isn’t it broken?

By adding mounts you are not making it much more inconvenient. If you would just remove all way-points (or don’t add them in a new maps) yes then you are correct but if you replace it by something else it’s not that big of a inconvenient anymore. Of course it would always take longer then a way point but does that mean it’s better?

We could also just give you everything in the game from the start. No need to level or do events or explore or collect or whatever. You have everything from the start. much more convenient but that does not make it more fun.

And to come back to don’t fix what isn’t broken.
Maybe that is exactly what Anet did here. Many mmo’s have a good solution for it and then Anet did try to fix it while it wasn’t broken. Now some people do think this new system might be a little broken.

How is it broken? You keep saying that mounts will fix it. But fix what exactly? The need for Role Playing? The need for faster movement so you don’t have to fight anything on your way because you can simply just outrun them? You’re not giving any examples or reasons beyond having a shiny mount.
Exploration is a choice. It is not forced upon you, but waypoints are not taking it away from you either. I don’t understand your definition of exploration since with mounts you’re not exploring, you’re running everywhere at extra speed. And “maybe” something catches your eye as you’re steamrolling through the map. That’s not exploration in any means. It’s like taking a drive through the major city and saying: “Yeah I explored it”.
Mounts are nothing more than unnecessary clutter that would make it like every other MMO out there that had no imagination to create what Guild Wars 2 created. One more extra thing to render as you’re loading the map. If you want mounts ask them to make a town clothes that have mounts attached to them. Don’t tie it to exploration.

Romo.3709:

Devata.6589:

It never occurred to them? You never noticed that they build cars and airships and helicopters. Plus why would mounts not be able to travel with it? People take a lot of stuff with them when going into a gate or using a way-point. And then there are the horse carriages all over the place. Also have a look at these pictures https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-2013/ I see Tyria citizens riding horses.

The link you gave is nothing more then a mechanic to help the player learn how it works. Pretty much the function of a tutorial. Building your whole idea of a lore around fast-travel on that while denying there is a lore for mounts seems silly to me and I really feel like you are fooling yourself here.

You might just disagree on the idea that mounts would be fun. Agree to disagree but this idea that mounts don’t fit in the lore while way-points do is just silly imho.

Riding mounts is not “exploration”. It’s a fast forward for people that hate exploration.
Mounts would be fun for people that hate running around maps and RP-ers.
Mounting would practically kill exploration as we know it.

Well I always liked exploring on a mount. You see something in the distance and then go there on a speed thats not annoyingly slow. Then you see something else and go there and so on.

Like I said before, running to a list of locations (poi, vista’s and so on) crossing them all of like you do now and not going somewhere else because it takes so dam long kills exploration more for me.

Devata.6589:

Thats the whole problem. You do not want to be at another location then your destination.

I don’t think you understood me.

But when you would go by road you might see something new along the way and decide to have a look. At least thats what happens to me a lot when using a mount to go somewhere in other mmo’s. Plus you also notice how big the world is.

As someone who was Legendary Grandmaster Cartographer in Guild Wars 1? I’m pretty sure I knew how big the world was then, and as someone with 100% World Completion, I know how big it is now. I don’t need mounts to appreciate the fact there are places I would very much not like to visit again, nor have the need to.

Like “Jinx Isle”, or “Terra Carorunda”, or “Sector Zuhl”. To some extent, the karka hive counts too.

Personally I don’t know why mounts would not work in those locations however I can imagine that no way-points and the introduction of mounts would be more something for new maps.

Admission time – If we go to Elona and the Desolation, and there are no Junundu to be found? I’ll be a little disappointed.

timmyf.1490:

You don’t travel to reach the endpoint, you travel. Period. That’s it. The exploration is the gameplay.

You spend your 1 hour exploring. And then you’re done.

I feel like I’m failing at explaining it, sadly.

While I might not have totally agreed on the way you visioned the temporary instanced maps and no mounts I do 100% agree on this.

It’s what I am trying to say when I talk about how ‘exploring’ now is crossing of a list of locations in stead of really exploring.

Devata.6589:

Like I said before, running to a list of locations (poi, vista’s and so on) crossing them all of like you do now and not going somewhere else because it takes so dam long kills exploration more for me.

So mounts would fix that how? Make that “cross-off” of yours a lot faster? True meaning of exploration… You’re not exploring, you’re taking a taxi. You have an option to use waypoints, if you take that option, don’t complain that it kills “your” exploration.
Mounts is not a fix. It never was. In any game. Trying to push the subject on something that actually made quite a lot of sense once it has been cleared up of the whole mounts idea by original poster, is quite selfish. They don’t bring anything new to the game. At all. All they’d do is make it look like one of tens of other MMOs out there. It’s practically asking Anet: “Make GW2 like WoW!!”.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

Besides, you talked about lore before. They totally fit into the lore. We have cars in the game, airships, horse carriages, use animals to carry supply but we don’t have mounts we ride on / in. That just does not fit with the lore.

Of course it does. When you don’t need to train creatures to be mounts then you don’t train creatures to be mounts… it probably never occurred to them to go that route. Pack animals move slowly, so walking along side them only makes sense (they can’t use a waypoint), and fast travel always is an option for when you don’t feel like walking.

Map travel is a part of GuildWars lore, mounts aren’t.

It never occurred to them? You never noticed that they build cars and airships and helicopters. Plus why would mounts not be able to travel with it? People take a lot of stuff with them when going into a gate or using a way-point. And then there are the horse carriages all over the place. Also have a look at these pictures https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-2013/ I see Tyria citizens riding horses.

The link you gave is nothing more then a mechanic to help the player learn how it works. Pretty much the function of a tutorial. Building your whole idea of a lore around fast-travel on that while denying there is a lore for mounts seems silly to me and I really feel like you are fooling yourself here.

You might just disagree on the idea that mounts would be fun. Agree to disagree but this idea that mounts don’t fit in the lore while way-points do is just silly imho.

They build machines of war, not personal travel. There’s a difference. I want to carry this humongous gun over there and blow something up… dolyak says no.

While many cars and stuff in the game seem indeed war-related thats thats not the case for all of them.

Like the horse carriages and the picture I did show you with people riding horses (and you now ignore) and how about the big Wintersday balloon that now hovers above LA?, there are ships that aren’t war related, I think I have also seen airships that are not war-related, the char have some bicycles that might have some spikes on them but also don’t see very war-related with guns or whatever and there is a helicopter somewhere (event related) that is also not a combat helicopter if I remember correctly and even the dredge seem so have some machines just meant to transport people.

Besides, I never said that all mounts where not allowed to have some combat mechanism. I would not mind if they didn’t but would also not mind if they did. Depends on the situation / location I think.