Guild Wars 2

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Nike.2631:

I get it the audience is primarily smash and grab. That’s why when I initially suggested them, failure would quickly move you into another fractal at that tier. Puzzles and other far off the beaten path challenges could be introduced in a way that if you suck at jumping/hate puzzles/just wanna kill they wouldn’t bar your progress more than a couple minutes tops.

The other option remains to incorporate them as short cuts within traditional challenge structures. Imagine an update to the Snowblind fractal when upon approaching the Ice Elemental there is an alternative to harvest X trees, and a crafting station when a player with Huntsman or Artificer of at least 300 can process them and you throw the results at the elemental starting a bonfire that kills it instantly. You can fight or you can chop some lumber if there’s a suitable crafter present.

We basically already have jumping puzzles to skip parts of the Underground Facility fractal, with all the ways people work around the first two gates . Instead of putting up invisible walls in every corner, you could actually formalize it as an acceptable alternative…

Another good paradigm for us to think about when we work on Fractals. Thanks.

Chris

Apparently you did not read his post at all. Because if you did you would realize he is talking about cutting down trees in what is supposed to ‘challenging’ content. Also, the last thing we need is more GW2 endgame that consists of us staring at the crafting menu.

Nike.2631:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Thats not the reason they do it though. Noone enjoys do the wisp puzzle. None of the pure invironmental puzzles are fun after doing them once. Puzzles arent replayable or repeatable. And even if you somehow make them randomly generated they will still eventually become boring because theres only so many iterations that can be generated.

How is that different from the jellyfish boss? How are any of the combat encounters in fractals not wildly repetitive the 10th time? or the 50th?

I’m still enjoying guild puzzles. I think they have (a lot) more life than you’re giving them credit for.

The gameplay is designed around combat. Every skill and stat (excluding magic find) is combat oriented. Also combat encounters scale.

Now let’s take a look at the wisp running. Most of your stats, gear or skills won’t matter at all. Also it doesn’t scale.

Which one has more room for innovation and tactics?

One of the things I also enjoyed a lot in the Cliffside Fractal, was how many height differences were incorporated. It felt like the entirety of the structure around the colossus was utilized to optimum efficiency. We travel around the colossus and see him from each height and angle. There’s some jumping, climbing, and dodging traps. There’s also a few cases where positioning is important, like with the flames at one of the seals.

Urban Battlegrounds was lacking in this department. It made up for it with plenty of siege equipment, and a WvW theme. But overall it was rather flat. I’m not saying that Urban battlegrounds was bad, but it was less interesting as a battle environment. The castle walls for example, could have been incorporated into the path that the players travel on their way to the boss. What I did like was how it had branching paths. Ultimately these paths weren’t unique in any notable way, but branching paths none the less.

I really enjoyed the Thaumanova Reactor in this regard. It felt open, and gave the players options. And once again, it utilized multiple floors, and made optimum use of one large environment.

One of the areas in the Queen’s Gauntlet had some platforming across lava, while fighting enemies. And I really enjoyed that, because you are not just moving forward. The platforms limited your movement space, which makes for an interesting combat situation. Ranged attacks were handy, but for close combat the players were required to do some quick platforming while being attacked. That in my opinion, makes for exciting combat.

I also like how fractals tends to be forgiving. Traps aren’t insta-kill (unlike the dungeons) and there for they feel less like a trial and error game with an ever growing armor repair bill. Fractals allows you to make mistakes, and doesn’t instantly kill you for it. It truly is a blessing that if I miss a jump in the Uncategorized Fractal, I’m simply downed and teleported back to the start.

I also like that we can harvest nodes in the Molten Facility. I would welcome this feature in more future Fractals.

Underwater is largely a puzzle fractal, along with swamp. I find Underwater lacking entirely of interesting mechanics. Even the final boss is basically harmless. I would like to see an additional underwater fractal, but one that doesn’t have the gimmicky feel of, say, the dolphins, but one that entices exploration and interesting combat. The plants, I think, would be cool if they had some sort of relevance to the boss (like cliffside and seals). I dislike the “fractured” (pun intended and now i’m sad) nature of many fractals. I personally don’t care for puzzles, because they basically reward nothing, and whether players are in it for the rewards or not, I would rather be rewarded through the fractal with bonus objectives rather than unscaleable path puzzles that lead you to an unrelated boss.

What bothers me the most about the Underwater fractal, is that the two puzzle mechanics often lead to armor repairs. I’m really bad at the dolphin section, even after doing it dozens of times. I still don’t get what I’m doing wrong, and how I can avoid the inevitable repair bill. Sure, with a large group I sometimes make it through alive. But that seems a bit random.

With the light, I always get lost. Visibility is poor, intentionally so, but it frustrates me. I wish it was possible to shut down the hazard in that area, after one person had made it through. Quite often one player will leave his party behind, and instantly swim to the boss. And then berate the others for not catching up to him. Quite often people simply suicide, just to quickly teleport to the boss. But I don’t think this is the way it should be.

I would love to see more underwater elements in Fractals, but I think they are best mixed with land sections as well. I would also love to see underwater traps, levers and doors. But a fractal that is 100% underwater, outstays its welcome quickly. The Swamp Fractal was good in how it had a very brief bit underwater to mix things up a little.

And I agree regarding the Jellyfish boss. But what I think it lacks, is clear stages. The fight goes on for too long, without introducing anything new. At no point does the boss get mad, and become more lethal. I would welcome a second and maybe even a third stage, to that battle, while cutting down on the overall length of it.

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

Apparently you did not read his post at all. Because if you did you would realize he is talking about cutting down trees in what is supposed to ‘challenging’ content. Also, the last thing we need is more GW2 endgame that consists of us staring at the crafting menu.

It wouldn’t take the crafting menu – the station only does one thing.

Also, my definition of “challenging content” includes preparing a team that has the full range of necessary skills – including crafting skills – to take advantage of any shortcuts that come up during the run. If they are well distributed they become very much a tool of the super-delvers rather than something for PUGs.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

What bothers me the most about the Underwater fractal, is that the two puzzle mechanics often lead to armor repairs. I’m really bad at the dolphin section, even after doing it dozens of times. I still don’t get what I’m doing wrong, and how I can avoid the inevitable repair bill. Sure, with a large group I sometimes make it through alive. But that seems a bit random.

With the light, I always get lost. Visibility is poor, intentionally so, but it frustrates me. I wish it was possible to shut down the hazard in that area, after one person had made it through.

I would love to see more underwater elements in Fractals, but I think they are best mixed with land sections as well. I would also love to see underwater traps, levers and doors. But a fractal that is 100% underwater, outstays its welcome quickly. The Swamp Fractal was good in how it had a very brief bit underwater to mix things up a little.

But there’s no underwater combat in swamp. It’s just, swimming. :\ That’s I think too little.

Now I don’t love underwater combat or anything, but there is so much that can be done to make the fractal beautiful. The scenery, the lore possibilities (no, I don’t really care about it, but hey, Quaggan lore, anyone?) bosses that have new mechanics and abilities that you would not see outside of the water, etc.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Nike.2631:

I get it the audience is primarily smash and grab. That’s why when I initially suggested them, failure would quickly move you into another fractal at that tier. Puzzles and other far off the beaten path challenges could be introduced in a way that if you suck at jumping/hate puzzles/just wanna kill they wouldn’t bar your progress more than a couple minutes tops.

The other option remains to incorporate them as short cuts within traditional challenge structures. Imagine an update to the Snowblind fractal when upon approaching the Ice Elemental there is an alternative to harvest X trees, and a crafting station when a player with Huntsman or Artificer of at least 300 can process them and you throw the results at the elemental starting a bonfire that kills it instantly. You can fight or you can chop some lumber if there’s a suitable crafter present.

We basically already have jumping puzzles to skip parts of the Underground Facility fractal, with all the ways people work around the first two gates . Instead of putting up invisible walls in every corner, you could actually formalize it as an acceptable alternative…

Another good paradigm for us to think about when we work on Fractals. Thanks.

Chris

Apparently you did not read his post at all. Because if you did you would realize he is talking about cutting down trees in what is supposed to ‘challenging’ content. Also, the last thing we need is more GW2 endgame that consists of us staring at the crafting menu.

Incorrect Dommmmmmmmmm.

I did in fact read it and personally i like it, specifically:

‘We basically already have jumping puzzles to skip parts of the Underground Facility fractal, with all the ways people work around the first two gates . Instead of putting up invisible walls in every corner, you could actually formalize it as an acceptable alternative…’

Please try to respect the opinion of others.

Chris

Hey Chris,

Since you are still considering his idea of making acceptable alternative routes to bypass content, can you consider making an alternative route to skip the dredge car. I firmly believe a good direction to start with would be to completely remove it from the game.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

But there’s no underwater combat in swamp. It’s just, swimming. :\ That’s I think too little.

I agree. I’d love to see a Fractal that mixes these elements 50/50. Small land sections, inter-cut by small underwater sections, and mixed with underwater and land combat, and underwater traps and land traps. And maybe, just maybe, some platforming in there as well.

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

Hey Chris,

Since you are still considering his idea of making acceptable alternative routes to bypass content, can you consider making an alternative route to skip the dredge car. I firmly believe a good direction to start with would be to completely remove it from the game.

How about this instead: What if you had a way to destroy the Dredge APC while fighting the boss? Maybe by attacking it directly, or indirectly with something in the environment.

Maybe the explosion of the Dredge APC could even injure the boss severely, if the boss is kited close to it when it blows up.

This provides options and more optional strategies.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

But there’s no underwater combat in swamp. It’s just, swimming. :\ That’s I think too little.

I agree. I’d love to see a Fractal that mixes these elements 50/50. Small land sections, inter-cut by small underwater sections, and mixed with underwater and land combat, and underwater traps and land traps. And maybe, just maybe, some platforming in there as well.

I vote no platforming, because if I wanted it I would simply play a platforming game. Or SAB. I don’t think it’s really something that belongs in fractals, especially since we do already have it in SAB.

Well here we go with an option perhaps for a limited-combat one? Taking this off slightly from one of the missions in Nightfall (Tihark Orchard).

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I vote no platforming, because if I wanted it I would simply play a platforming game. Or SAB. I don’t think it’s really something that belongs in fractals, especially since we do already have it in SAB.

When I say platforming, I mean the simple jumps that you encounter on your way to the Jade Maw. Simple jumps. It doesn’t have to be all hard, like in the Uncategorized Fractal. And it doesn’t all have to end in a deadly pit. Jumps could be over water, allowing players to simply climb out and try again.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I vote no platforming, because if I wanted it I would simply play a platforming game. Or SAB. I don’t think it’s really something that belongs in fractals, especially since we do already have it in SAB.

When I say platforming, I mean the simple jumps that you encounter on your way to the Jade Maw. Simple jumps. It doesn’t have to be all hard, like in the Uncategorized Fractal.

I’m fine with that, then. I have always enjoyed uncategorized, and Maw. I just thought you meant SAB platforming.

Wethospu.6437:

Nike.2631:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Thats not the reason they do it though. Noone enjoys do the wisp puzzle. None of the pure invironmental puzzles are fun after doing them once. Puzzles arent replayable or repeatable. And even if you somehow make them randomly generated they will still eventually become boring because theres only so many iterations that can be generated.

How is that different from the jellyfish boss? How are any of the combat encounters in fractals not wildly repetitive the 10th time? or the 50th?

I’m still enjoying guild puzzles. I think they have (a lot) more life than you’re giving them credit for.

The gameplay is designed around combat. Every skill and stat (excluding magic find) is combat oriented. Also combat encounters scale.

Now let’s take a look at the wisp running. Most of your stats, gear or skills won’t matter at all. Also it doesn’t scale.

Which one has more room for innovation and tactics?

Well, the thing is:

We have many skills, traits and stats that don’t really come into play that much in general PvE. This is because fights are different from PvP fights. We simply don’t have to bother with many aspects of the combat system. (In fact, they’re often only counterproductive, making fights last longer)

To make other parts of the combat system shine, we need some ‘gimmicky’ situations that allow for these skills and traits to come into play. The swamp fractal for example, allows for excellent use of stuff like:

• Teleports
• Condition removal
• Stunbreakers
• Stealth

These are also used elsewhere in the game, but they are not as essential in generic combat situations as they are in the swamp fractal.

Of course the challenges shouldn’t all be complete gimmicks, but if we are to make full use of the skills and traits available to us, pure combat just won’t do.

Wethospu.6437:

The gameplay is designed around combat.

Except for the parts that aren’t. And there are LOT of them. I’ve never had to kill a vista point for example and some of my best loot has come from map completion.

Every skill and stat (excluding magic find) is combat oriented.

I agree – since getting my crafting stats to 500 is how I’ve made 7 pieces of ascended gear, while killing things for weeks in WvW has only gotten me 2 Ascended chests.

Crafting is definitely a combat stat .

Also combat encounters scale.

Puzzles scale too. Its not exactly hard to lower the time limit to do X, Y, and Z. In the example put forward earlier of out-climbing a rising lake of lava, you can change the rate at which the lava rises. Poof! Scalability.

Which one has more room for innovation and tactics?

The one with more imagination being applied to it.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m fine with that, then. I have always enjoyed uncategorized, and Maw. I just thought you meant SAB platforming.

I enjoy all three varieties of platforming, but I think simple and forgiving platforming is more suitable in Fractals. When I play something like the Snowblind Fractal, it bores me because there’s not that many height differences. Apart from the initial descend, there is not a single moment when you have to jump on to something. Same for Urban Battleground, not a single jump. Not even an easy one.

Thaumanova at least goes up and down a bit. And Cliffside is almost entirely vertical, which is also great.

Nike.2631:

Wethospu.6437:

The gameplay is designed around combat.

Except for the parts that aren’t. And there are LOT of them. I’ve never had to kill a vista point for example and some of my best loot has come from map completion.

I have had to kill in order to reach a Vista though. Or at least do a healthy amount of “creative evasion” for the vista in Stonemist on one character

I agree – since getting my crafting stats to 500 is how I’ve made 7 pieces of ascended gear, while killing things for weeks in WvW has only gotten me 2 Ascended chests.

Crafting is definitely a combat stat .

It combats my bad luck getting gear drops also, since I can just build stuff for my alts instead of needing to hope a greatsword drops for my warrior to get a new one. Cause he’s still hauling around a Level 53 greatsword at Level 66 . . .

Puzzles scale too. Its not exactly hard to lower the time limit to do X, Y, and Z. In the example put forward earlier of out-climbing a rising lake of lava, you can change the rate at which the lava rises. Poof! Scalability.

If they can scale that, can they maybe scale the Mad King Clock Tower back some so I can actually finish the darn thing? By the way, also think the Winter Wonderland one scales too since people running ahead of me can ruin my ability to do the jumps through the exploding present sets.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well here we go with an option perhaps for a limited-combat one? Taking this off slightly from one of the missions in Nightfall (Tihark Orchard).

Courtly Behavior

hide spoiler

Courtly Behavior

The travelers are present now in a gathering which turns out to be during a lull between Guild Wars and tensions in the attendees are rising steadily. Different opposing guilds have representatives here, along with the nobility from the three human nations and the dwarves of Deldrimor. Talking around reveals varying motives for being here:

- The dwarves are here to reiterate they don’t want to be in the middle or have their lands used as staging grounds. By now the representatives are split: some getting sour on this and wanting to close the borders entirely and some who are more compassionate and want to keep the neutrality to “we’ll help your wounded if you don’t come seeking trouble”.

- The Orrian nobles wish Kryta and Ascalon would cut it out, and their guild is present largely to keep the peace. The Orrian guild, on the other hand, has members who don’t take that seriously or are spoiling for a reason to get some combat practice in. The nobility has started to despair at their being peace between the other two kingdoms, and is just trying to make it through the last night of the gathering.

- The nobles from Ascalon are somewhat reasonable, but there’s deep grievances in one of their number since his brother was killed during the last battle in the previous round of Guild Wars. He’s itching to murder one of the Krytan guild members as retribution, and has employed some of the Ascalon guild members to make sure either through poison or bloody assassination it happens. The leader of the Ascalon guild could care less about the politics, they want to move north to fight charr instead of humans. The members largely don’t care who the enemy is, so long as they can earn combat pay instead of peacetime pay.

- Kryta is disjointed. One of the nobles wants to set up a war between Orr and Ascalon so Kryta can join in on whichever one starts losing; they’re not picky but they’d like to push it towards Orr over the holier-than-thou attitude being displayed. The other nobles want peace so they don’t have to live on high alert and can try to fix problems locally. One of them is even lobbying for some help pushing out some of the centaurs and tengu so they can build Loamhurst. The guild members, on the other hand, don’t respect anyone from the Ascalon side and have been throwing subtle barbs for the last few days in unofficial ways.

The goal is to make it through the evening without a brawl breaking out. Each class or race has some unique options of conversation which can either help or hinder this; a charr character might antagonize the Ascalon representatives and make the other two uneasy, and the Deldrimor act uneasy around a Norn but are polite. If problems can be solved it can stabilize tensions, and the players can pretend to offer assurances to each side or actually secure assurances. Finally, the meeting is made with everyone talking about it and depending on how the players played it out it will end with uneasy tensions and no clear resolution (default), total war breaking out (through player manipulation), or peaceful accords (through player manipulation).

Rewards: For the Tension ending, four basic loot bags containing Relics (among other things) and a claim ticket for a special weapon from an NPC in the Mistlock Observatory. If they push them to war, four basic loot bags, and a Warmonger weapon chest (new skin), plus a recipe for Warmonger armor (new skin). If they push for peace, four basic loot bags, a Peacemaker weapon chest (new skin), plus a recipe for Peacemaker armor (new skin). (Note: the skins have Exotic rarity but are not gear; they are just skin items.)
Additionally, some other loot bags may be made available through certain paths; given as bribes to push the resolution one way or another, perhaps, or rewards for minor services.
The special weapons resemble older weapon skins available in Prophecies, but with more ornate twists on them. You can use the Mystic Forge plus some random items from the loot bags to customize them to resemble Krytan/Orrian/Ascalon weapons used by the guild members in the instance.

Extras: Achievements for getting different resolutions, for stopping the assassination, or for playing it as a sylvari or asura (races unknown or unheard of).

While I would like to play through this, I wouldn’t want to see it in fractals.

After a while it would just become something we would want to get over with, so we can get to the actual fighting. Whereas it would be great fun to try out the multiple ways in which this could fail. I would prefer this type of thing in either a personal story setting or through the living story.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m fine with that, then. I have always enjoyed uncategorized, and Maw. I just thought you meant SAB platforming.

I enjoy all three varieties of platforming, but I think simple and forgiving platforming is more suitable in Fractals. When I play something like the Snowblind Fractal, it bores me because there’s not that many height differences. Apart from the initial descend, there is not a single moment when you have to jump on to something. Same for Urban Battleground, not a single jump. Not even an easy one.

Thaumanova at least goes up and down a bit. And Cliffside is almost entirely vertical, which is also great.

Well, there’s no real reason for every fractal to feature the same platforming jump mechanic, that would get pretty stale for most people fairly quick. I honestly like Urban the way it is, apart from desperately wanting to build my own siege to take over Ascalon. I mean, I summon my golem suit just to pretend I’m doing it. Urban is my second favorite fractal, because it’s so vivid, and we know where it comes from so well.

Hopefully you’ll get well SOON Chris. We want you at 100% when you implement those new fractals/fractal changes .

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Well, there’s no real reason for every fractal to feature the same platforming jump mechanic, that would get pretty stale for most people fairly quick. I honestly like Urban the way it is, apart from desperately wanting to build my own siege to take over Ascalon. I mean, I summon my golem suit just to pretend I’m doing it. Urban is my second favorite fractal, because it’s so vivid, and we know where it comes from so well.

True, but what I mean is that it could at least have contained one flight of stairs. When the fractal is just a straight road, where all you do is just walk, it’s a bit tedious. It could be only one speed bump. One step where you have to jump once, to mix it up.

I agree btw that not being able to operate siege equipment in Urban Battlegrounds is a missed opportunity. Once you’ve taken out some guards, it would have been great to turn their catapults on the enemy.

The Lost Witch.7601:

While I would like to play through this, I wouldn’t want to see it in fractals.

After a while it would just become something we would want to get over with, so we can get to the actual fighting. Whereas it would be great fun to try out the multiple ways in which this could fail. I would prefer this type of thing in either a personal story setting or through the living story.

That’s why I suggested it could be accessed separately from the usual Fractals rotation earlier on. You can have your “vanilla Fractals” experience untouched, but you can also walk in and go “let’s do something different” and tell Dessa to take you to something else.

Like it’s said earlier – there’s room in the Mists for anything and everything if you want it.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I’m fine with that, then. I have always enjoyed uncategorized, and Maw. I just thought you meant SAB platforming.

I enjoy all three varieties of platforming, but I think simple and forgiving platforming is more suitable in Fractals. When I play something like the Snowblind Fractal, it bores me because there’s not that many height differences. Apart from the initial descend, there is not a single moment when you have to jump on to something. Same for Urban Battleground, not a single jump. Not even an easy one.

Thaumanova at least goes up and down a bit. And Cliffside is almost entirely vertical, which is also great.

Well, there’s no real reason for every fractal to feature the same platforming jump mechanic, that would get pretty stale for most people fairly quick. I honestly like Urban the way it is, apart from desperately wanting to build my own siege to take over Ascalon. I mean, I summon my golem suit just to pretend I’m doing it. Urban is my second favorite fractal, because it’s so vivid, and we know where it comes from so well.

I like Urban to. It is probably my favorite because it has great lore executed very well, and a sandbox style approach to path and combat.

I to would love to be able to have siege in this fractal (-:

Chris

We deserve arrow carts. And we deserve them now.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I agree btw that not being able to operate siege equipment in Urban Battlegrounds is a missed opportunity. Once you’ve taken out some guards, it would have been great to turn their catapults on the enemy.

Well, two things: First, it seems like it’s a small bite of WvW type fighting. You can’t use the other servers’ siege gear in WvW. (Though I so want to capture unmanned Omega Siege Golems….)

Secondly, this was a charr rush on a city. The idea seems to be they were intent on basically a Blitzkrieg. Hit hard, hit fast, and move through defenses no longer an issue.

Hear hear! Siege equipment in Urban Battlegrounds! Roaaargh!

I’d also like to see some more objectives in Urban Battlegrounds. It’s nice to be able to choose a path, but when all of those paths are exactly the same, that’s a bit boring. Maybe some gates can be randomly more fortified than others, every time you play it. Maybe climbing the walls, and conquering a catapult, is actually a nice objective to take down a group of enemies. And maybe constructing a battering ram, and guiding it to the gate is one more objective that would add more life to this fractal.

Wethospu.6437:

Nike.2631:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Thats not the reason they do it though. Noone enjoys do the wisp puzzle. None of the pure invironmental puzzles are fun after doing them once. Puzzles arent replayable or repeatable. And even if you somehow make them randomly generated they will still eventually become boring because theres only so many iterations that can be generated.

How is that different from the jellyfish boss? How are any of the combat encounters in fractals not wildly repetitive the 10th time? or the 50th?

I’m still enjoying guild puzzles. I think they have (a lot) more life than you’re giving them credit for.

The gameplay is designed around combat. Every skill and stat (excluding magic find) is combat oriented. Also combat encounters scale.

Now let’s take a look at the wisp running. Most of your stats, gear or skills won’t matter at all. Also it doesn’t scale.

Which one has more room for innovation and tactics?

gameplay is also designed around movement /position/control. I also find it odd you are against environmental alternate paths, since a fairly large amount of the high level fractals are as much about avoiding bad fights/climbing side walls, etc. If i remember correctly you used such means when practicing your solo lupicus encounters?

Back to the idea presented, i think its a good one. Especially if the content is actually designed for it, this way it can have real difficulties and risks attached to it. It can also swing the other way, they could have combat oriented shortcuts, where you go the long way with low risk, or the short way through a harder encounter.

As far as scaling content, i think environmental challenges can have mechanics that make it harder, like clock tower that spins faster and has water coming to get you. or enemies like harpies shooting you, etc.

crafting might be a hard sell though.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Wethospu.6437:

The gameplay is designed around combat. Every skill and stat (excluding magic find) is combat oriented. Also combat encounters scale.

Now let’s take a look at the wisp running. Most of your stats, gear or skills won’t matter at all. Also it doesn’t scale.

Which one has more room for innovation and tactics?

Well, the thing is:

We have many skills, traits and stats that don’t really come into play that much in general PvE. This is because fights are different from PvP fights. We simply don’t have to bother with many aspects of the combat system. (In fact, they’re often only counterproductive, making fights last longer)

To make other parts of the combat system shine, we need some ‘gimmicky’ situations that allow for these skills and traits to come into play. The swamp fractal for example, allows for excellent use of stuff like:

• Teleports
• Condition removal
• Stunbreakers
• Stealth

These are also used elsewhere in the game, but they are not as essential in generic combat situations as they are in the swamp fractal.

Of course the challenges shouldn’t all be complete gimmicks, but if we are to make full use of the skills and traits available to us, pure combat just won’t do.

You don’t really need any of those with the wisp running. Sure, they are useful but not essential.

Are you seriously saying that there is no way to add a combat encounter which would need condition removal, mobility/teleports, stunbreakers and stealth?

Nike.2631:

Except for the parts that aren’t. And there are LOT of them. I’ve never had to kill a vista point for example and some of my best loot has come from map completion.

I agree – since getting my crafting stats to 500 is how I’ve made 7 pieces of ascended gear, while killing things for weeks in WvW has only gotten me 2 Ascended chests.

Crafting is definitely a combat stat .
Puzzles scale too. Its not exactly hard to lower the time limit to do X, Y, and Z. In the example put forward earlier of out-climbing a rising lake of lava, you can change the rate at which the lava rises. Poof! Scalability.

The one with more imagination being applied to it.

I understand rambling is fun but could you try to stay on topic? Honestly not sure if you are just trolling at this point so I’m not going to waste my time.

phys.7689:

gameplay is also designed around movement /position/control. I also find it odd you are against environmental alternate paths, since a fairly large amount of the high level fractals are as much about avoiding bad fights/climbing side walls, etc. If i remember correctly you used such means when practicing your solo lupicus encounters?

—

As far as scaling content, i think environmental challenges can have mechanics that make it harder, like clock tower that spins faster and has water coming to get you. or enemies like harpies shooting you, etc.

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Movement, position and control are all valid combat mechanics.

I’m not against alternative paths. I’m against randomness. More options players have, more choices they can make.

Could you elaborate more this “avoiding bad fights/climbing side walls”? In fractals most encounter aren’t skippable.

When I practiced Lupicus I soloed up to corrupting lights and then used a map glitch. I fail to see how this is relevant though.

Sure, puzzles can scale. However with a limited skill set it’s much harder to make them challenging. In my opinion the best way is to have a combat with puzzle elements. But then it’s not a pure puzzle anymore.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I like Urban to. It is probably my favorite because it has great lore executed very well, and a sandbox style approach to path and combat.

I to would love to be able to have siege in this fractal (-:

I still want to see a second fractal that uses the same map as the basis for a lane defense encounter like we saw at the Marionette. Maybe change the lighting to nighttime to improve the contrast.

When you arrive you’re all transformed into Ascalonian Soldiers and order to move forward to support Commander Dulfy where you have the option of running some of her siege weapons. When the gates fall you have to fight in each of three lanes chosen randomly from all the paths on the map again with the option to rebuild/use siege that may be lying about. In the final encounter you have to keep Captain “Rally to me! RUUUAAAAGGHH!” alive for 90 seconds. Then the outnumbered buff kicks in and you fight to the death (without equipment damage) to see how many juicy loot-piñatas you can bust before you go down like a goddang HERO!

Seriously, I want my very own “Boromir moment” where victory is determined not by living to see the dawn, but by how many Charr bodies you heap up before your inevitable demise.

And using the same map saves on development overhead . That my excuse and I’m sticking to it.

phys.7689:

Back to the idea presented, i think its a good one. Especially if the content is actually designed for it, this way it can have real difficulties and risks attached to it. It can also swing the other way, they could have combat oriented shortcuts, where you go the long way with low risk, or the short way through a harder encounter.

That is exactly what I meant, thank you. Multiple roads, with different risks and appropriate rewards. Strategic options, and optional attack orders.

Imagine a fractal where the players must assault a fort. They can go straight for the gate, but then they get caught wedged in between reinforcements, and archers shooting at them from higher ground. So players can choose to take out these archers first (maybe by platforming their way up and simply killing them on their balcony), or they can perhaps defeat an optional champion, and steal a catapult, which they can then turn on the archers and on reinforcements. Or maybe there are traps that some of the mobs can be lured into, but the players might have to send one person over to reach a lever to activate it.

Nike.2631:

Seriously, I want my very own “Boromir moment” where victory is determined not by living to see the dawn, but by how many Charr bodies you heap up before your inevitable demise.

This is sort of what Thunderhead Keep in Gw1 managed to achieve. Players would split up and each defend a different gate. It made it feel like you were a hero, since it focused on both team work and individual skill. That’s why I think Thunderhead Keep would make for an excellent Fractal. Just waves of enemies coming at the players, and everyone operating catapults, and fending off attackers at each gate.

Some weird Fractal suggestions:

Fashionshow:

• Show your gear and perform given moves/commands at the right time to earn enough points to complete the fractal
• The rarity of your gear/dyes and average acquisition costs/time spend are rated
• Get bonus points for matching clothes

Dancecontest:

• Either perform moves or play notes (with your instruments you have gotten so far through LS events) at the right time to get points

Jumping Puzzle à la Takeshi’s Castle:

• Just one member of the party has toreach the end of this hard jumping puzzle

phys.7689:

crafting might be a hard sell though.

You could sell it as an optional buff to a fight. Doing side activity X for about 45 seconds (on average) allows a Huntsman to produce an environmental weapon that rips 25% of the boss’ lifebar off with the first (and only) shot, then proceed to normal combat. Or you could build something that gives you an extra platform/more space during a major fight. There are a lot of possibilities to tie preparation into a boss encounter that is still resolved though combat.

I’ve also thought there was potential for tailors to do something with their “weaving skill” that’s so amazing a trio of Oh-Crap-Those-Are-BIG spiders bow in appreciation and scuttle away (leaving their chest).

But I totally agree that if their are branching paths to final victory, sometimes a good sharp, hard fight should be the preferred/faster method if your team can handle it.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

Jumping Puzzle à la Takeshi’s Castle:

• Just one member of the party has to reach the end of this hard jumping puzzle

It would be pretty awesome if we had some sort of gauntlet like Takeshi’s Castle as an optional way to bypass another obstacle. If it required only one player to bypass, that would allow for one really skilled player to shine, and provide the party with a cool short cut.

The rolling boulders in the Lava Fractal felt a bit like it. But imagine if the boulders are coming towards you, and not from behind. And then add blade-traps like in Last Crusade, that you have to dodge through, along with crumbling bridges like in that Goonies JP in Brisban Wildlands.

Wethospu.6437:

The Lost Witch.7601:

Wethospu.6437:

The gameplay is designed around combat. Every skill and stat (excluding magic find) is combat oriented. Also combat encounters scale.

Now let’s take a look at the wisp running. Most of your stats, gear or skills won’t matter at all. Also it doesn’t scale.

Which one has more room for innovation and tactics?

Well, the thing is:

We have many skills, traits and stats that don’t really come into play that much in general PvE. This is because fights are different from PvP fights. We simply don’t have to bother with many aspects of the combat system. (In fact, they’re often only counterproductive, making fights last longer)

To make other parts of the combat system shine, we need some ‘gimmicky’ situations that allow for these skills and traits to come into play. The swamp fractal for example, allows for excellent use of stuff like:

• Teleports
• Condition removal
• Stunbreakers
• Stealth

These are also used elsewhere in the game, but they are not as essential in generic combat situations as they are in the swamp fractal.

Of course the challenges shouldn’t all be complete gimmicks, but if we are to make full use of the skills and traits available to us, pure combat just won’t do.

You don’t really need any of those with the wisp running. Sure, they are useful but not essential.

Are you seriously saying that there is no way to add a combat encounter which would need condition removal, mobility/teleports, stunbreakers and stealth?

They are useful, not essential. Yes. But useful is important. It gives us a reason to actually use some skills that are otherwise not seeing any action. To think about our build. They make the fractal significantly easier. If it is too easy to do it without adjusting, then I believe the encounter should be made a bit more difficult on higher levels.

And yes, there are ways to make a combat encounter that needs condition removal, mobility, stunbreakers and stealth. And they should work on that more. It is just much more easy to implement in a puzzle-combat mixture, because you don’t have to worry too much about the extreme power of stacking + berserker gear.

It is really difficult to come up with a pure combat encounter that is doable for average players, but doesn’t fall to the ‘zerker combination’ (I’m not criticising this, just acknowledging it’s power) while at the same time still requiring advanced tactics.

In addition to that though: There are many different skills that remove conditions. For the mesmer (that I play most in fractals) the null field is typically the most effective. This is not the case in the swamp puzzle, where mantra of resolve is the clear winner. Different scenarios require different approaches. The more different the scenarios are, the more likely it is that we’ll have a use for some skill we would otherwise leave untouched. (Provided that we can use our skills to our advantage though! Unlike the dolphin puzzle for example)

The reason why I hate pure puzzle encounters is that we could have combat with puzzle elements. For example we could have a boss in wisp area and you would have to use wisps to beat him.

But back to your reply. So far every puzzle is so shallow/easy that there is barely any need to think about builds. Yes, I use different skill set when running wisps than normally but loading condition removal, mobility and stun breaks isn’t very challenging. With combat elements you would have to make a decision between offensive and defensive skills.

If you get thrilled with using Mantra of Resolve instead of Null Field then I guess we just have to accept that we appreciate different things.

About alternative paths, while it’s a nice idea I would rather first see current encounters spiced up with more mechanics. I prefer quality over quantity.

Wethospu.6437:

The reason why I hate pure puzzle encounters is that we could have combat with puzzle encounters. For example we could have a boss in wisp area and you would have to use wisps to beat him.

But back to your reply. So far every puzzle is so shallow/easy that there is barely any need to think about builds. Yes, I use different skill set when running wisps than normally but loading condition removal, mobility and stun breaks isn’t very challenging. With combat elements you would have to make a decision between offensive and defensive skills.

If you get thrilled with using Mantra of Resolve instead of Null Field then I guess we just have to accept that we appreciate different things.

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About alternative paths, while it’s a nice idea I would rather first see current encounters spiced up with more mechanics. I prefer quality over quantity.

I feel a little strange for doing this, but I thank you for being persistent with the main points you’ve been asserting :P

I’m really glad that I don’t feel alone with this mentality:
_"The reason why I hate pure puzzle encounters is that we could have combat with puzzle encounters."

While I actually kind of like the wisps encounter, it’s hardly worthy of even being called a puzzle. The challenge associated with puzzles is solving the puzzle, and that’s pretty much done for us. This is more of a busywork exercise, if anything… or sadly a test to see how inept the PUG team you joined is. :/

This leads me to question why we’re told what to do in dungeons and fractals? I’m not sure if many people share this same opinion, but isn’t part of the fun on games exploration? You know, discovering what you’re supposed to do… where to go… how to do something?

Just a thought.

Purple Miku.7032:

Wethospu.6437:

The reason why I hate pure puzzle encounters is that we could have combat with puzzle encounters. For example we could have a boss in wisp area and you would have to use wisps to beat him.

But back to your reply. So far every puzzle is so shallow/easy that there is barely any need to think about builds. Yes, I use different skill set when running wisps than normally but loading condition removal, mobility and stun breaks isn’t very challenging. With combat elements you would have to make a decision between offensive and defensive skills.

If you get thrilled with using Mantra of Resolve instead of Null Field then I guess we just have to accept that we appreciate different things.

---

About alternative paths, while it’s a nice idea I would rather first see current encounters spiced up with more mechanics. I prefer quality over quantity.

I feel a little strange for doing this, but I thank you for being persistent with the main points you’ve been asserting :P

I’m really glad that I don’t feel alone with this mentality:
“The reason why I hate pure puzzle encounters is that we could have combat with puzzle encounters.”

I agree. It worrys me when people are so insistant on forcing pure puzzles in fractals. They arent successful. The majority of regular fractal runners find them tedious and boring. Combat with puzzle encounters are the way forward and adds a whole new level of difficulty and replayability to those “puzzles”.

Regarding secondary ways to solve an encounter, the suggestions so far were mostly “all or nothing”-alternatives. Everyone goes and grabs firewood? Again, why not split the group? Let me throw some more ideas in here.

Snowblind Fractal, Ice Elemental
There’s an alternate path up a cliff next to the ice elemental. If one (!) party member manages to ascend it, jump along some planks etc, there’s a ledge with a bomb, right above the elemental. You grab it and you jump. Upon impact, large AoE-damage kills all the minor elementals and deals around 50% damage to the boss. Of course the player with the bomb is toast, and won’t be able to contribute to the fight until he gets rezzed.

Groups that are willing to split up and take the boss with 4 can use the bomb to speed up the fight, but there’s the safe, puzzle-free backup strat with all 5 players.

Underground fractal, first room
The current “puzzle”-solutions (i.e. bugs) rely on a pretty boring skill: knowing the bug.

Though maybe someone could jump somewhere to grab an environmental weapon that grants strealth, aegis, knockback or other things useful in the cage? Right now, it’s a bit thief-heavy..

Oh, and I like the idea of seeing the other side of the urban battleground fractal!

Hi Chris:

I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this already, but the Urban Battleground Fractal has some really bad AI issues (the charrs that accompany players thru the fractal). If they die, it is required for all players to die as well to eliminate the ascalonian soldiers, and the npcs run to trouble without players consent. Not sure how you guys can fix this…

Aden

Wethospu.6437:

The reason why I hate pure puzzle encounters is that we could have combat with puzzle encounters. For example we could have a boss in wisp area and you would have to use wisps to beat him.

But back to your reply. So far every puzzle is so shallow/easy that there is barely any need to think about builds. Yes, I use different skill set when running wisps than normally but loading condition removal, mobility and stun breaks isn’t very challenging. With combat elements you would have to make a decision between offensive and defensive skills.

If you get thrilled with using Mantra of Resolve instead of Null Field then I guess we just have to accept that we appreciate different things.

I agree, having both is better. And with the way fractal can get more difficult at higher levels, it would be a great place to increase the pressure on puzzles by adding combat as the levels go up. (Leaving less space in your builds, making decisions matter more) Because by then we would already have some knowledge of the basics of the puzzle.

While I don’t particularly like using Mantra of Resolve over Null Field, I do like that I can feel even a little bit clever about making the right decision. Of course, the more clever I need to be about it, the more satisfying overcoming a challenge can be.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Wethospu.6437:

The reason why I hate pure puzzle encounters is that we could have combat with puzzle encounters. For example we could have a boss in wisp area and you would have to use wisps to beat him.

But back to your reply. So far every puzzle is so shallow/easy that there is barely any need to think about builds. Yes, I use different skill set when running wisps than normally but loading condition removal, mobility and stun breaks isn’t very challenging. With combat elements you would have to make a decision between offensive and defensive skills.

If you get thrilled with using Mantra of Resolve instead of Null Field then I guess we just have to accept that we appreciate different things.

I agree, having both is better. And with the way fractal can get more difficult at higher levels, it would be a great place to increase the pressure on puzzles by adding combat as the levels go up. (Leaving less space in your builds, making decisions matter more) Because by then we would already have some knowledge of the basics of the puzzle.

While I don’t particularly like using Mantra of Resolve over Null Field, I do like that I can feel even a little bit clever about making the right decision. Of course, the more clever I need to be about it, the more satisfying overcoming a challenge can be.

I think Uncategorized is a great example of puzzle combat. You have the jumping puzzle, but as you get past level 10, the harpies can knock you down if you aren’t careful. That makes it challenging and important to think about, do I slot in extra damage to kill harpies, or do I go for stealth, or do I go for reflection? It’s all important, and it takes group coordination, and I like that.

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

crafting might be a hard sell though.

You could sell it as an optional buff to a fight. Doing side activity X for about 45 seconds (on average) allows a Huntsman to produce an environmental weapon that rips 25% of the boss’ lifebar off with the first (and only) shot, then proceed to normal combat. Or you could build something that gives you an extra platform/more space during a major fight. There are a lot of possibilities to tie preparation into a boss encounter that is still resolved though combat.

I’ve also thought there was potential for tailors to do something with their “weaving skill” that’s so amazing a trio of Oh-Crap-Those-Are-BIG spiders bow in appreciation and scuttle away (leaving their chest).

But I totally agree that if their are branching paths to final victory, sometimes a good sharp, hard fight should be the preferred/faster method if your team can handle it.

While preparation for boss battles in some way could be an interesting mechanic, crafting is, I think, the wrong way to implement this. It’s a tool which has never had anything to do with combat, and involves clicking a button (and grinding up levels outside of the dungeon). This is not really particularly interesting. One of the points in the CDI which has been really well expressed is the anti-AR grind… let’s not replace it with a “must have crafting at 500 to get the best buff” grind.

On the other hand, if the mechanic was something like “interact with the mystic forge to produce a weapon of great power, while your teammates protect you from a wave of spawning enemies” (not dredge please), that could be more interesting. It would be more combat related and involved than “real crafting,” and would not gate characters based on their grind out in the main game.

Chris, I really hope you don’t miss my post here but I’ll understand if you do… based on how many of them you have to sift through.

My biggest desire for FotM requires me to highlight one of the bosses on this game and use it to compare with other fights found in GW2.

Giganticus Lupicus

This is by far one of the most engaging boss encounters in the entire game and something worthy of being bragged about. Whoever came up with the idea for Lupi was a genius. Even the lore behind him is intriguing…

This game needs boss encounters like this.

While I’m aware of the fact that very experienced players can take him down in under half a minute (a bunch of eles can take him down in 7 seconds, lol), it’s a boss that doesn’t require you to rely on other players unless you are very experienced yet at the same time can give a full team a great deal of difficulty.

Seriously, this is just the perfect boss encounter. Is there any chance of us getting boss fights similar to this in fractals? Molten Duo is nice, but the fight mechanics aren’t nearly as unique. While I do like that there is a “second phase” after the first of them is killed, compare it to Lupicus’s three phases each with unique attacks and behaviors.

Simply put, Lupicus is a legend in the PvE world of GW2 and I want to see more fights like this. I’m sure many others will agree that it’d be thrilling to have more encounters of this nature. Afterall… fractals is meant to be the “elite” content of the game, yeah?

—

PS:
Any chances we could have a fractal related to the fall of Orr or anything of that nature? I apologize for being so biased towards this aspect of the game’s lore… it’s my favorite.

Tub.4560:

Snowblind Fractal, Ice Elemental
There’s an alternate path up a cliff next to the ice elemental. If one (!) party member manages to ascend it, jump along some planks etc, there’s a ledge with a bomb, right above the elemental. You grab it and you jump. Upon impact, large AoE-damage kills all the minor elementals and deals around 50% damage to the boss. Of course the player with the bomb is toast, and won’t be able to contribute to the fight until he gets rezzed.

An interesting suggestion. But how about making it so that it doesn’t kill the player? Maybe there’s some sort of ballista on the cliff, that helps to clear the mobs during the boss battle. One player could fight his way up there, and assist during the fight, with ranged siege attacks. But occasionally a mob of elementals may spawn, that starts marching up the cliff to take out the ballista. Once the ballista is destroyed, you can not use it again, and have to beat the boss the normal way.

Tub.4560:

Underground fractal, first room
The current “puzzle”-solutions (i.e. bugs) rely on a pretty boring skill: knowing the bug.

Though maybe someone could jump somewhere to grab an environmental weapon that grants strealth, aegis, knockback or other things useful in the cage? Right now, it’s a bit thief-heavy..

I’d love to see an alternate solution that doesn’t involve stealth, or just enduring the pain. A minor bit of platforming to get some sort of environmental weapon that knocks enemies back, would be a great addition. Frankly, the entire room with the cage is underused. It could use some more alternate options.

Purple Miku.7032:

—
Giganticus Lupicus
—
This game needs boss encounters like this.
—

Personally I don’t think it is a very good base. It’s a way too simple, easy and boring, even to solo.

Sorry, had to be said. :P

I would rather see multi-goal encounters with puzzle elements and lots of enemies. Along with the boss of course.

You have to take into account here that probably 99% of the rest of the playerbase aren’t able to do what you can do on this game, Wethospu :P

Just like anything else on the game, there comes a point where you’ll have done something enough times to learn the best ways to do it and it’ll become trivial. Don’t all the boss fights in FotM already feel that way to you?

While I agree that at this point I consider him really easy too, my point is that the fight is extremely engaging and very unique— certainly one of the most memorable bosses this game has to offer.

Steep learning curve, unforgiving, unique, engaging.