Guild Wars 2

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Ahh…unless you were there, keeping up with that massive thread (I assume), you have no idea what ‘Doctor Orwen’s Theater of the Ages’ is. When summarizing in the future, as I have said before, maybe a line or two explaining what the ‘post topic du jour’ is will enable others to contribute without spending all their available time searching through the thread for explanations. =)

You can also link to posts directly by using the permalink on the bottom right corner of each post. (And then copying the url from the browser.)

So I can link to Doctor Orwen’s Theater of the Ages.

This kind of linking could be done in the opening post, as I did on my own thread: here.

Although I would only link to dev answers and summaries in the case of the CDI, since those are bound to go on for far more than 5 pages.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Inculpatas,

Regarding the discussion about one thread at a time. The advantage for us currently is that the team could concentrate on one topic at a time rather than having three threads to keep up with and therefore have more time to get involved. It would also allow me to enter the discussion of the threads in different areas. Note i am still undecided about this particular discussion. I to am very worried about the time it would take to rotate between topics and for this reason alone that could be a big enough con to not move forward with the above proposal.

Since I suggested the one topic at a time back at page 3 somewhere, I still strongly believe that the pros, of only having one topic up at a time, outweighs the cons greatly.

Would it maybe be an idea to limit the period of time in which the specified topic is open?

I mean, the living story is an ongoing topic still. Last post was around 5 hours ago and the topic opened 28 days ago. With more focus on one area only, from both players and developers, would 2 weeks not be a realistic goal?

I can only speak for myself off course, but:
If one collaborate topic is open in either PVE, PVP or WvW for a 2 week period and if I only wish to comment on PVE: Then I never have to wait more than a month for a collaborate topic in the PVE section. To me, that would be more than acceptable.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Reesha,

So one topic per week with a process evolution thread at the end of a 3 topic cycle?

Chris

Some think like that, yes.
I don’t think the one topic at a time necessarily has to be set in stone forever.
However, I think this initiative of yours is so promising and that the collaboration aspect of it means a lot. Especially where we are right now (in the early stage).

By that I mean: I think it is important that you can focus on one topic at a time.
You mentioned earlier that you were struggling for time and saw some interesting thoughts in one topic but didn’t have the time to dive deeper into the discussion.

Maybe it becomes easier over time as both players and developers gets more experience with collaborative development topics. Maybe then it becomes possible to have successful topics running simultaneously. Time will tell.
For now I think the “one topic at a time policy” is the best way to go, and that a time limit would help to make that possible.

And yes to the process evolution thread at the end of a 3 topic cycle as well

I still have some questions:

If each area (WvW, PvP, PvE) has their own ‘owner’ and set of Devs, why must each area wait to have topics (only one area active at a time)?

Will CDI threads be closed once the week (or whatever time alloted to each) is over? (The Living World/Story thread is still open.) If not, will there still be collaboration in said threads? If so, again, why no overlapping threads? If not, I am unsure how much collaborating might go on in the thread.

Are you, Chris, the owner of each area’s thread? If so, I can understand why only one area’s thread is open at a time, but, unless I misunderstood, I thought each area (WvW, PvP, PvE) has their own ‘owners’ and associated Dev team. If you are the ‘owner’ of all, I think that is a lot on your plate. Thank you for your dedication to this project. =)

Do the other Devs share your passion for CDI, or will this become part of their job description? Does everyone have enough time to keep up with (possibly) hundreds of posts about hot topics?

Just a few of the questions that have occured to me about this process.

Again, thank you for your time. =)

Chris Whiteside.6102:

‘Do the other Devs share your passion for CDI, or will this become part of their job description?’

I think so yes, however i think they are still anxious around entering into the public arena (they are after all human and have emotions) and are still finding their feet like everyone else is in this new initiative.
Chris

Awww. I hope they will find the overall experience to be positive.
I think the majority of the posts, in both this and the Living Story topic, have been constructive so far.

problem do not arise when you communicate, they occur when there is a lack of communication. the community will not chew off our dev as long as they keep us updated and have well reasoned posts.

Vi Au.8341:

problem do not arise when you communicate, they occur when there is a lack of communication. the community will not chew off our dev as long as they keep us updated and have well reasoned posts.

as the main source of negative posts i agree with this

Chris Whiteside.6102:

HI Vi Au,

‘Is it possible to add a second thread during the 3 day CDI process evolution to “vote” on potential topic?’

Yes i think that would be a good idea. Many have said that they would like us to pass on skill lag with the next in the list being Commander functionality. If we went with this then after the 3 area topics close and we do the next Process Evolution we could vote again.

However it was also put forward by quite a few people that the Dev team should choose the topics for each area, specifically in regard to the most pressing topics for us in terms of working together through the CDI.

Personally i think their are pros and cons with both options but i would like us to make a decision about that action following the decision around area topic cadence.

Chris

So, hopefully this is short, but I’d like to propose an idea. There has been discussion as to whether the players or the devs should choose the topic and each has its own merits.

With that in mind I’d like to propose that we take a middle ground approach. Do the voting process as we did before, but have devs choose which topic would be best to discuss from the top 5 or some such number. The hope behind this idea being that we take a large part of the pros from both categories and leave a few of the cons behind.

Haik Camus.1530:

So, hopefully this is short, but I’d like to propose an idea. There has been discussion as to whether the players or the devs should choose the topic and each has its own merits.

With that in mind I’d like to propose that we take a middle ground approach. Do the voting process as we did before, but have devs choose which topic would be best to discuss from the top 5 or some such number. The hope behind this idea being that we take a large part of the pros from both categories and leave a few of the cons behind.

I like this idea, but I think it would be better to implement it after the next 3 topics have been discussed.
As an example: I think a lot of people would feel very disappointed if ascended gear was not chosen, since we know it was voted high enough to be next in line for pve.
I see the issue with the next topic for wvw though ….

Well I do mainly play WvW, would it not be better that the devs choose the topic that they can best discuss?

That is the question.
Maybe just do what Chris suggested and go to the next on the list.

Don’t get me wrong, I rather like your suggestion. However, if implemented, I think the top 5 should be made visible for all. This would be to make sure that a topic, which is really important to the players, does not get pushed out over and over again because it is not chosen by the developers.

Hmm. Maybe it would also be possible to make one round (with one PVE, PVP and WvW topic) where the developers could freely choose a topic they would like some feedback on.

The following round could be player chosen topics.

i understand where you are coming from but like the skill lag topic issue, there isnt much to discuss on that subject. and i dont think the wvw team is even responsible for this. its the optimization team etc. so having it up for a discussion would be imo a waste of time.
if they listed the topics for the next 5 cdi and we can give our 2cents on if they are worth discussing could save us from those situations

Well, the hope would be that if a topic is passed up again and again while in the top position some reasoning would be provided given the stated goals of this initiative.

Vi Au.8341:

if they listed the topics for the next 5 cdi and we can give our 2cents on if they are worth discussing could save us from those situations

Yes. I think that is a good idea.

actualy i am curious what the number 4 wvw topic was since we bumped number 2

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Reesha.7901:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Inculpatas,

Regarding the discussion about one thread at a time. The advantage for us currently is that the team could concentrate on one topic at a time rather than having three threads to keep up with and therefore have more time to get involved. It would also allow me to enter the discussion of the threads in different areas. Note i am still undecided about this particular discussion. I to am very worried about the time it would take to rotate between topics and for this reason alone that could be a big enough con to not move forward with the above proposal.

Since I suggested the one topic at a time back at page 3 somewhere, I still strongly believe that the pros, of only having one topic up at a time, outweighs the cons greatly.

Would it maybe be an idea to limit the period of time in which the specified topic is open?

I mean, the living story is an ongoing topic still. Last post was around 5 hours ago and the topic opened 28 days ago. With more focus on one area only, from both players and developers, would 2 weeks not be a realistic goal?

I can only speak for myself off course, but:
If one collaborate topic is open in either PVE, PVP or WvW for a 2 week period and if I only wish to comment on PVE: Then I never have to wait more than a month for a collaborate topic in the PVE section. To me, that would be more than acceptable.

Hi Reesha,

So one topic per week with a process evolution thread at the end of a 3 topic cycle?

Chris

while i think this is great idea thanksgiving is this week and next month will be christmas and new year. you may not want to start this cycle now and might want to use this time to experiment.

Reesha.7901:

Vi Au.8341:

if they listed the topics for the next 5 cdi and we can give our 2cents on if they are worth discussing could save us from those situations

Yes. I think that is a good idea.

Agreed.

Vi Au.8341:

i understand where you are coming from but like the skill lag topic issue, there isnt much to discuss on that subject. and i dont think the wvw team is even responsible for this. its the optimization team etc. so having it up for a discussion would be imo a waste of time.
if they listed the topics for the next 5 cdi and we can give our 2cents on if they are worth discussing could save us from those situations

that sounds like a second vote without a good reason like the skill lag not having much room for discusion i dont understand why we would be voting again.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

It depends on the particular area, some can be almost immediate and others could take months. In future i will be sure to give more explanation about what goes into the development of features or areas we are discussing.

Chris

As for me, we really miss some way of statement from ANet side.
If you say something is a good idea It doesn’t mean anything yet.

*I would love to see summary of each talk with some statements like: *
- we will start new story arc in 3 months
- we will change this and that in 6 months.

TIME FRAMES are kinda essential for most of us who are waiting forward for something to happen. As it goes now you only say “we will consider it”, “I like the idea” and all things like that. I don’t really know if something will happen.

If you promised new fractal by the end of the year I was really glad and I waited forward to see it and now it will be online today. I’M SUPER HYPED BECAUSE OF THAT!

Any time frames and informations what will you do are very important. You should have a section with information about what you will do due to threads we discussed. Like you say: ok we will try to do this something it in next 6 months and you can make thread with ideas in progress. Once a month change status so we can know after 2 months that it will take 1 more month than you thought and that’s ok.
I think we all really want to know that you are working on something that we long to get. We can wait but we want to know this will happen and then (as much as possible and people will have to learn that there will be deadlines that wont be meet and that will move forward cause you can’t plan something and always meet the deadline in programing. Even more it often can’t be meet and thats really normal situation).
There would also be some ideas that would not have time frames at the start. They would have state like: “checking technology” or “preparing for development” or “creating technology – project name” so we would look on that project to see how long for a feature we originally look forward for. Yet they all should be listed and updated one a month.

You can post going live ideas with some lag – like 1-2 weeks or more cause that would give you time to discuss it with other devs and make preparations.

I feel that making those announcements would really work great on community. It would give all people the transparency we all need after discussions.
Also no one could go and say that you don’t listen to players feedback or not work on something.

Chris, great job so far. Thank you for all your time and effort!

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Reesha,

So one topic per week with a process evolution thread at the end of a 3 topic cycle?

Chris

If so topics should be only for 1 week. making a whole cycle would take too long if you would extend that 1 week for two. Making it 10 days could work also so the whole cycle would be in 1 month.

Septemptus.7164:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Reesha,

So one topic per week with a process evolution thread at the end of a 3 topic cycle?

Chris

If so topics should be only for 1 week. making a whole cycle would take too long if you would extend that 1 week for two. Making it 10 days could work also so the whole cycle would be in 1 month.

it would be 3 weeks of each area and 1 week of this just seeing what went right what went wrong general chatter about the process itself and not the topics. it would still be a month.

I am kinda afraid 1 week wouldnt be enough in that some people who wish to contribute to a topic might be cut out because they didnt have the time in that particular week.

How about having 1 week between the 3 topics and CDI where people can add opinions on the past 3 topics? I think that might solve the issue of time to a degree without increasing the cycle too much.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

whyme.3281:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

FYI if we go with the next topics from the initial call for topics threads (Global) then they are as follows:

PVE: Ascended Gear
PvP: Rewards and Progression
WvW: Skill Lag

These are all pretty focused topics which means we will be able to enter into the discussions more readily in terms of time. The bigger the topic the more divergent the discussions and this makes it harder for us to give them our full attention.

Chris

Can we see a complete list of the next 3+ topics?

Hi Whyme,

Here is the data you requested:

PvE Request for Topics Results

1 Living World
2 Ascended Gear/Ascended Items
3 Class Balance

Thought Conditions will be on one of the upcoming topics

Right now PvE is a pain when playing condition specs.

• Much lower damage then direct damage classes
• one player is capable to scratch the condition cap, bringing two into a dungeon , you lose ~80% of your damage.
• Controlling bosses is nearly impossible because of unshakable and defiant

Are you working on that, so every discussion will be “useless” because there is a bigger change set up right now. Or will there be a CDI about this topic later?
For me this is one of the major design problems in PvE because it limits your group setup so much.

Would like to hear your thoughts about this.

Perhaps, Conditions would be part of Class Balance, as those running Condition builds are not perceived to be balanced with other builds by many.

I wouldn’t use the class balance for this, because the main problems in Pve are the boss and enemy designs, not special skill balance.

There is no high defense boss, so you are “forced” to use conditions. If there is one it is a structure, so conditions won’t deal damage at all.
there is unshakable and defiant on every boss, that limits the control ability really hard
…

It’s a separate topic and has nothing to do with balance

O…..kies! 15char

gidorah.4960:

Septemptus.7164:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Reesha,

So one topic per week with a process evolution thread at the end of a 3 topic cycle?

Chris

If so topics should be only for 1 week. making a whole cycle would take too long if you would extend that 1 week for two. Making it 10 days could work also so the whole cycle would be in 1 month.

it would be 3 weeks of each area and 1 week of this just seeing what went right what went wrong general chatter about the process itself and not the topics. it would still be a month.

Cool.

perhaps a stupid question this long into the thread: where do fractals and dungeons belong? Are they part of the PvE development? I ask because I very often come across users who describe their daily experience something like this " it’s been a busy day, I ran a few fractals, then ran some WvW, then roamed PvE a little bit, did a few World Boss events, now am considering whether to do dungeons or PvP"

(in the interests of full disclosure: I myself play mostly open world and WvW. I just really don’t like if stuff gets forgotten or overlooked. Even if I’m not interested in that stuff)

Dealing with new idea on the priority list

We keep discussing time frame and how to pick new topics, but what if a new top arises? How are we going to implement that into the list? The list is already “premade” from the community listing what they want to discuss. but there will always be new updates and new features that will be added and maybe the community feel this should be a subject they would like to go in depth with the devs. Are we simply going to list it at the back of the line? let it jump to the front of the line? how are we going to decide how far should we allow it to hop?

My solution is to simply bring the topic up during the 3 day recap etc and let the dev decide where it should be listed. If there is overwhelming concern and it is an urgent topic of discussion, make it rank2 topic but anything else rank it 3rd, 4th, etc as you see fit.

If it is a big and new topic, people will make irrational post and will be less constructive. if you give it time for them to really think it through and sit on it, i think we can get more done within the small time frame of 1 week.

Also for some, maybe the next topic is of particular interest to someone and have a lot to give, but it gets pushed back at the last minute. It wouldnt be fair to them if it happened.

5 topics is an arbitrary number that i felt to be a reasonable amount. 3 is too little information of what the upcoming topics will be and 10 is too much and there is a possibility of if and when will we be able to reach topic #10

yksdoris.2194:

perhaps a stupid question this long into the thread: where do fractals and dungeons belong? Are they part of the PvE development? I ask because I very often come across users who describe their daily experience something like this " it’s been a busy day, I ran a few fractals, then ran some WvW, then roamed PvE a little bit, did a few World Boss events, now am considering whether to do dungeons or PvP"

(in the interests of full disclosure: I myself play mostly open world and WvW. I just really don’t like if stuff gets forgotten or overlooked. Even if I’m not interested in that stuff)

I would say they belong to PvE.

unleashed.8679:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

whyme.3281:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

FYI if we go with the next topics from the initial call for topics threads (Global) then they are as follows:

PVE: Ascended Gear
PvP: Rewards and Progression
WvW: Skill Lag

These are all pretty focused topics which means we will be able to enter into the discussions more readily in terms of time. The bigger the topic the more divergent the discussions and this makes it harder for us to give them our full attention.

Chris

Can we see a complete list of the next 3+ topics?

Hi Whyme,

Here is the data you requested:

PvE Request for Topics Results

1 Living World
2 Ascended Gear/Ascended Items
3 Class Balance

Right now PvE is a pain when playing condition specs.

• Much lower damage then direct damage classes
• one player is capable to scratch the condition cap, bringing two into a dungeon , you lose ~80% of your damage.
• Controlling bosses is nearly impossible because of unshakable and defiant

Sounds like that files under Class Balance to me.

Maybe this has been suggested before, but why not have CDI specific forums? Like maybe one overall where all CDI threads (PvP, WvW, PvE, etc.) go and people can go through and read and devs can start new CDI threads within this one forum and have them all in one convenient place? All the devs could go to this centralized forum and be able to respond to multiple threads easier. Maybe then multiple CDI’s could be made at once and be looked at more often?

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Reesha.7901:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Reesha,

So one topic per week with a process evolution thread at the end of a 3 topic cycle?

Chris

Some think like that, yes.
I don’t think the one topic at a time necessarily has to be set in stone forever.
However, I think this initiative of yours is so promising and that the collaboration aspect of it means a lot. Especially where we are right now (in the early stage).

By that I mean: I think it is important that you can focus on one topic at a time.
You mentioned earlier that you were struggling for time and saw some interesting thoughts in one topic but didn’t have the time to dive deeper into the discussion.

Maybe it becomes easier over time as both players and developers gets more experience with collaborative development topics: Maybe then it becomes easier to have several topics running at the same time. Time will tell.

And yes to the process evolution thread at the end of a 3 topic cycle as well

Some great points thanks Reesha, especially the point about the CDI evolving to the point it becomes easier through our combined experiences with it.

Therefore i think this proposal is sound and i would like to hear any further arguments against it in case we may have missed anything?

Chris

The one topic a week and then close is likely not to be a good step forward. All that does is mimic the issues with the Living Story in terms of strict timeframes and closing off opinions ahead of time.

These should be permananetly open threads for players to constantly add to including new players or when topics become more/less relevant over time as applicable.

What I would suggest is an entirely separate subforum dedicated to the CDI, with the threads open all times for you and us to discuss at each other’s leisure.
That will reduce also the worry about your time as well.

Of course these subforums would only include the CDI topics and new threads started only by devs.

As for evaluating? I’m not sure this level of burearacy is needed. If you like an idea or a discussion goes well, then it will appear in the game. And thats the best possible evaluation any of us can have.

ps. apologies for typos…in pain and ill..!

edit; looks like wookie also suggested the same thing!

I like the idea of a CDI sub-forum.

It would probably be a lot easier for you guys too – being able to get an instant overview of all active topics on one screen.

Will ‘Conditions in PvE’ ever be a topic? Would love to chat about that one.

The problem with a CDI forum is the Devs will certainly know the threads exist (no matter where they are…), but many of the players won’t.

We’ve had a couple requests for what CDI means just in this thread. Imagine how many people will never show up at all because its in a sub-forum with a mysterious naming scheme.

I think the threads need to be right where they are – square in the path of day-to-day traffic for the topic category they relate to.

A fair point, but that’s partly an issue with the CDI name. It’s a bit of corporate “tagging” where something is over titled for what it is. Renaming it to dev/player discussion board or something more appropriate or obvious would help and adding it to the top of the subforum menu so it is not missable.

Problem with the General Discussion forum is that it is just a mess right now and too many CDI threads would get lost in the clutter and confuse players/devs alike. ANd I genuinely feel these need to remain open topics for them to work and be effective.

The thing is they CAN’T be open indefinitely. The Dev owning them has to move on after a certain amount of time, and once they do the thread is not a CDI thread anymore. If there is any lesson to be taken from the cluster of “Dec 10 changes” posts its that once the Dev managing them left, leaving them open only allowed them to fester rather than promote communication.

I’m bummed that the rate of CDI activity is getting cut to 1/3 of its initial vision- especially after seeing what I feel were most of the weaknesses of the initial launch detected, dissected, and likely resolved (or at least greatly improved) in this thread. If we have to crawl before we can walk, ok, but I’ll always be wishing we could get to the point where the process dances even if it means another 1/3 or 1/2 of the threads fall short along the way.

I worry that with all the eggs in one basket, we risk having one bad mis-step or failed attempt make the whole process look bad because there’s only one thread at a time. It really restricts the rate at which we can detect problems and improve the process and it cuts the actual collaboration off to a trickle of what it could be.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Well i certainly understand where your coming from. So the other option is to run 3 on Monday and we go in knowing that we still have some way to go in terms of us all getting everything right in terms of the spirit of the initiative.

I am happy to do this to. Thoughts?

Chris

I’m fine with it. Either way, both plans will leave you with “some way to go in terms of the initiative”. I’d stay the course with 3 until a better solution is implemented. I’d rather keep the pace going with 3 at once than risk one thread going bad and lasting for a long, long time and dragging the process down.

EDIT: What Nike said.

If there are ‘owners’ for each thread, and they are willing and committed to discussion and interaction in said threads, and could possibly keep you, Chris, informed and ‘in the loop’ for each thread, maybe you could just be the ‘overseer’ of the threads and we could have all three threads open at once. (Geez, what a run-on sentence. My apologies.)

I know I, and probably others, have little interest in some areas or topics that may be up for discussion. (This happens with game releases, as well.) Although, that is a minor issue, what may be more important is that topics that might influence game design/implementation decisions are 1/3 as speedily discussed with a one-topic-at-a-time cadence. A third choice on a list may be delayed for 9 to 12 weeks, before we get the chance to visit it.

I also don’t see any point in leaving topic threads open forever, or actually, any time once the Devs have left. There will be no more collaboration there, and anyone can open a thread to discuss the topic with other forum-users. If left open, I fear later posters will feel there is no collaboration because there are no Dev posts. (Some people may not read the whole thread, and miss where a Dev might state there will be no more official interaction.)

But, of course, you (ArenaNet) have much more information and I have faith in your choices. Thank you. =)