Guild Wars 2

And last but definitely not least,

6. She needs to have limits, and her plans need to be made based on those limits, rather than just happening to have whatever MacGuffin she needs for the next story.

As Astralporing points out quite well – at the moment, it really does feel like it’s a case of “we want X to happen, so we’ll have Scarlet be the reason it happens, and we’ll handwave reasons why she can make it so”. That may not actually be the case, but there’s so little that is transparent about her (which ties into observation 2) that that’s definitely the impression that comes across.

Simply put – if you haven’t done so already, the team needs to sit down and decide on just what resources Scarlet, and any other villain that gets introduced, actually has, and keep them to within those limits. We, as players, do not need to be informed just what those resources are. That’s okay. It’s also possible that, due to events that happen in the story, those resources may grow (or shrink). That’s also okay. But it is important you as the writers at least have a good idea of just what your villains are and aren’t capable of, and write the stories based on that.

If you have a great idea, and it’s outside of what the prime villain of the time is able to do… well, they don’t need to be responsible for EVERYTHING that happens. Evil is not monolithic, and as has previously been noted, there are a LOT of things happening in Tyria and a lot of enemies that are not related to Scarlet – if you have a great idea that isn’t in line with her resources, maybe it’s time to introduce another villain, even if it’s one that ends up dead at the end of the story. To take the current example, for instance – if Scarlet is responsible for the Toxic Alliance as currently seems most probably, her just happening to have found the obelisk shards, while also doing everything else she’s been up to, seems like a bit of a donkey-pull (albeit still infinitely better than getting no explanation at all, again see #2). The story could have been just as robust and probably more so if the formation of the TA had come about because the faction of the Nightmare Court involved had been inspired to find the obelisk shards and use them to propose an alliance with the krait through a Dark Hunt, and that same Dark Hunt had inspired them to claim they were sent by the Prophets.

cesmode.4257:

I actually had a question about this insatiable need for a dragon-centric story from everyone. I did not play the original GW, and while I do like dragon fights because they tend to be epic in scale, why is everyone in love with them? Sure, they are neat, but surely, and arenanet has shown this capability even in GW2, there are other epic villains and bosses to fight. I know as per lore there are certain dragons out there in the guild wars universe. Putting scarlet aside, because I think she is a shell of a villain, would you folks not be happy if the next major villain were not a dragon? If it were some enormous titan or something?

Which brings be to another thought which relates to dragons and a reason why people might love them so much: Dragons tend to be huge which lead to epic encounters and cutscenes. Sure, agreed. But you can have an even more interesting villain in the form of a humanoid such as Scarlett, if she was written better. Take Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2. Arguably one of the better villains in a video game from recent years. His character just dogs you all game, ruthless, belittles you, holds nothing back. In a way, I feel the writers of Scarlet tried to emulate Handsome Jack a bit, but fell a bit short. And then when you do fight him, it is a pretty interesting fight. I think he was well written. If scarlett had more character to her, her form as a sylvari would be completely acceptable to me. Size and form are irrelevant.

What Im trying to say is..Im trying to wrap my head around this need to have GW2 villains be dragons or large and epic in scale. They are fun, but there is no need if the character is well written. Is it because they relate to the lore of guild wars more?

I sometimes believe that if they’d plucked Scarlet out of the LS and replaced her with a champion of one of the other Elder Dragons, the LS plot would be a bit more palettable.

The Dragons, for all their comparisons to forces of nature, have two things Scarlet has yet to provide. Credibility and motive.

The dragons have history. They’re as old as the planet. Just one of them waking up has consequences on a global scale. Hell, Scarlet only has the opportunity to use the Krait in her plans because an Elder Dragon drove them out of the Endless Ocean. You see the effects of Dragon corruption in at least half the zones in the game. That is a threat.

Scarlet has seemed to suddenly appear out of thin air, with a backstory that was poorly protrayed in game, and when found out of game seemed almost nonsensical. Her personality so far doesnt help anyone take her seriously as well. Then, apart from an instanced dungeon in TA, Scarlet has not only failed to leave an impact on the world at all… but has routinely failed to accomplish anything thanks to the player character. (I admit the latest update may change that in a few weeks)

Also, the Dragons have purpose. They’re awake to devour the magic of the world and bring it back to balance. Their actions move toward that goal… at least based on the only encounter we’ve had so far. One of the ways you’re able to defeat Zhaitan in the first place is cutting off his stream of magic he feeds on, weakening him.

Scarlet may have been introduced a few months ago, but her plans have been in motion since January… and the playerbase still has no idea what she’s up to, and why, in the face of huge, known threats like the Dragons, should we even care?

Edgar Doiron.2804:

mercury ranique.2170:

So I do think that the living story should be rewarding/interesting for people regardless off playtime, but it should not only serve the people with less time but also those with enough time.

*My suggestion would be to add more rewards. *

Why not reward us with more lore, instead of more fluff.

And more interesting dynamic events, which leads to traditional content updates vs 2-week living story updates…it is all connected. In my opinion, Arenanet cannot look at Living Story without considering permanant content that we are all asking for(in the form of zones, new DEs, etc), because all require certain dev time and cost. All connected.

But I agree, more lore, more story, more interesting content. Less grind, less achievement grind, less zerg, less rewards.

Playing a fun game that I enjoy spending my free time is reward enough and should be reward enough for anyone.

Edgar Doiron.2804:

Xar.6185:

cesmode.4257:

I actually had a question about this insatiable need for a dragon-centric story from everyone.

Mainly it is because other villians are out to conquer or subjugate while the very existence of the elder dragons threatens to eraddicate Tyria.

Who cares if alliance number one takes over zone ‘A’ if an elder dragon is going to awaken and destroy the planet?

As a hero, who do you stop? The guy invading fort <whatever> or the primal force of nature that is going to bring about the apocalypse?

I thought the dragons were only there to suck back the excess magic in the world… so hmm if we’re fighting them, aren’t we the one that will destroy the planet?

And that would be a very interesting plot development and moral dilemma, IMO.

goldenwing.8473:

I’m not looking for a TV show in my MMO.

This. I spend my free time playing your MMO because I prefer this rather engaged activity over passively watching something. I have started to play online multiplayer games in 1996, and ever since I have not had a TV license or a TV for that matter – I don’t need nor want one.

If you want to improve your LS, give me reasons to meet and collaborate with more players in game, thus enhancing my experience. Do not lock me into single player instances or prescribe grinds disguised as achievements, and big zergs are not what I see as desirable either.

LS? It’s fine I guess, Honestly I have no idea whats going on with it. I see “scarlets minions are invading such and such place” but other then that no idea, perhaps make LS more intuitive to players, especially new and returning players. Honestly as someone else said. “To much junk going in the trunk, gonna need a bigger wagan.”

cesmode.4257:

Edgar Doiron.2804:

mercury ranique.2170:

So I do think that the living story should be rewarding/interesting for people regardless off playtime, but it should not only serve the people with less time but also those with enough time.

*My suggestion would be to add more rewards. *

Why not reward us with more lore, instead of more fluff.

And more interesting dynamic events, which leads to traditional content updates vs 2-week living story updates…it is all connected. In my opinion, Arenanet cannot look at Living Story without considering permanant content that we are all asking for(in the form of zones, new DEs, etc), because all require certain dev time and cost. All connected.

But I agree, more lore, more story, more interesting content. Less grind, less achievement grind, less zerg, less rewards.

Playing a fun game that I enjoy spending my free time is reward enough and should be reward enough for anyone.

Yep, I do think more could be done with Dynamic events, unless this is the maximum extent of their potential?

Here’s a couple of ideas.

Exploring a new map (Crystal Desert), no man has been in there for ages. It’s about time we go in there, but before doing so, we know we’ll need to build camps and such on the other side.. and it’s a desert, so there’s not really any wood or ore around.

Put a dynamic event (gatherer) at the Desert Gate, there you’ll see pack dolyacks, builders crafters, all waiting for The Pact (or another group) to get ready and head to the crystal desert. They need 2 million wood, and 2 million Ore (any type will do). Each server has this progress bar, some can complete them quicker than others. Once they’re filled, the gates open, triggering the next event, until they reach the first camp. (Make a pause, so every server can catch up) at the camp you get some new stuff to do, and explore, until we’re ready to push forward some more (new update).

So just an example, make it so that once the Ressources are ready, the first group there are actually beating the trail, but pack dolyaks, crafters, builders will keep periodically spawning at the gate, and needs to be escorted to the first base camp, because they still need those ressources… So even if you miss that first run, you’re still doing it over and over until the next patch comes out.

So an event like this would last a couple of days/week depending on how good/willing the server is at dumping ressources in it.

This is just an idea, I’m not sure if the event system is acutally able to handle stuff like this.

ColinJohanson.2394:

So a fun question to ask to help direct the conversation a bit: What aspects of your favorite television shows would you think would be cool to see reflected in a game medium?

When I think about the living world I’m really thinking about two different things; 1. the world itself and 2. the actual story. You can have a really good story that changes nothing in the world. Star Trek Voyager for instance. It was a good show but at the end of most episodes nothing really changed. On the other hand you have a show like Babylon 5. The plot moved right along. There was a direction.

For me, personally, I place more value in the malleability in the world then I do on the story. I can accept a crappy story if I can see that it had an impact because ultimately the story that I’m really interested in is my own characters.

I guess what I’m saying is don’t turn the game into the Simpsons. It has longevity but it’s been the same for over a decade. Be Battlestar Galactica and have an end game and when that is done find us another perspective explore.

BobbyStein.2315:

timmyf.1490:

Yetiyen.7269:

You’ve completely ignored the biggest problem with the living story, most players WANT PERMANENT CONENT! You’ve got 10 pages of people telling you that they want new zones and more permanent content. Yet you haven’t responded or provided an answer to these players at all. I’m not trying to be rude, but I thought the idea of this thread was for you to listen to the community and provide us with feedback. You still need to address:

1. Permanent content! We want new areas!
(New zones and areas etc.)

2. The pace of the Living Story!
(2 weeks is too fast!)

It would be really appreciated if you could address these issues.

1. Demanding things from the developers will get you nowhere.
2. Bobby Stein – correct me if I’m wrong, guys – is a writer. He can’t address those issues because that’s not what his job is.

Your first point is true. When feedback is phrased like a demand it usually gets ignored. Constructive, thoughtful commentary is what we need. Thankfully, there’s a lot of it in this thread so I and the other devs appreciate that so many of you are taking time to formulate your thoughts.

Regarding your second point, yes, I’m the lead writer. I manage a team of narrative designers and writers who are currently tasked with writing plot, advancing character development, and drafting dialog for the Living World releases. I do not set the release schedule or contribute meaningfully toward critical design systems like rewards, skills, combat, etc.

That stated, comments about the release pacing (a.k.a. how frequently we put out Living World updates) and related features (task tracking, replayable content, etc.) are extremely useful to others at the studio.

I didn’t mean for it to sound like a demand, and for this, I apologize. I respect how hard you guys work on the Living Story, however it’s frustrating to see so much feedback regarding LS release pacing and world features unanswered. Especially as these are questions and comments that have been ignored in the past.

I share my opinions:

At the moment LS is mostly not involving for me, what I miss is an interesting plot to follow.
I liked the chapter of the vote. Since I felt I had a role, I enjoyed my time dedicated to the LS.
Unfortunately the other chapters weren’t able to keep my interest alive.

I think it would be a great improvement if you find a way to give us the story ingame. Having to check on websites breaks immersion, while the possibility to track the story ingame could keep the player interested in the events and their consequences.

I support the idea of a slower release schedule, it will help losing the feeling of “rush or lose”.

The question about tv shows seems a bit strange to me! I like what convoy feelings and brings me into the story.
I prefer naming Robert Jordan’ s"The wheel of Time" book series as a model.
A main story divided into a wide variety of threads and characters.
Their growth, alongside the plot getting complex and variegated are the reasons I love it.

ColinJohanson.2394:

So a fun question to ask to help direct the conversation a bit: What aspects of your favorite television shows would you think would be cool to see reflected in a game medium?

Alright, time to get back to Colin’s Question.

My example will be LOST, i’m sure most of you heard of it.

LOST to me was two things.

First, it was an awesome TV show, with an intriguing plot, and each episode we learned a bit more about the island, but each episode also brought more questions.

LOST wasn’t just a TV show. Between episodes, I would talk with friends about the current episode, speculate on different theories and listen to podcast which brought even more questions and theories.

So for me, there was LOST the TV show, and LOST the Meta(discussing about it from week to week).

The living story does touch the Meta part a lot(not always, more later), but as a “Show” it’s still lacking a lot on the answer questions and bring some new ones(although i liked what was done in the Blood & Madness patch witht he veiled tower)

So on the Meta part of the Living story (outside the game), the way you’re currently set up right now with your updates twice a week.

Week 1

• Get update +patch notes
• See upcoming feature
  

        _This is really nice, especially when you put the Letters of the next update in the file name_

So during the first week, I’m enjoying the new content, and speculating on reddit, the forums, and with friends about the next patch. I’m also listening to podcast and other video blogs online about such speculation.

Week 2

• Get to see what the upcoming feature is
• Get a short trailer

By this time, I’m done the last update, and I’m doing my regular GW2 stuff, WVW, dungeons and such. I don’t mind that I completed it in a week, because that means I actually have time to do other stuff. So now, we can see if all our speculations were right, talk more about what we saw in the short trailer, and at the features that are coming.

Week 3
Now that upcoming content is moved to the Now Playing part, and we repeat.

I’m loving this cycle for this, it’s that exact same feeling I had when watching Lost.

Now as for the story, I think we need to work more on Answering questions before giving us even more Questions.

Why are the aetherblades so scared of scarlet? What did she do to create the molten alliance?

Blood and Madness did a nice thing with showing a glimpse of the next content update in game, Tower of Nightmares did answer how she got the kraits under her command (telling them she had/could get an obelisk), and I think that’s the direction we need to take.

Like I said in an earlier post, instead of using Achievements as filler, why not use part of it to expand the story? The 24 krait obelisk shard that we need to find, why isn’t there some Krait lore snippits associated with each one we transcribed?

I do think you’re heading on the right path though… and no more dates in the preview image, give us back our two letters hint!

mercury ranique.2170:

Yep, I do think more could be done with Dynamic events, unless this is the maximum extent of their potential?

Here’s a couple of ideas.

Exploring a new map (Crystal Desert), no man has been in there for ages. It’s about time we go in there, but before doing so, we know we’ll need to build camps and such on the other side.. and it’s a desert, so there’s not really any wood or ore around.

Put a dynamic event (gatherer) at the Desert Gate, there you’ll see pack dolyacks, builders crafters, all waiting for The Pact (or another group) to get ready and head to the crystal desert. They need 2 million wood, and 2 million Ore (any type will do). Each server has this progress bar, some can complete them quicker than others. Once they’re filled, the gates open, triggering the next event, until they reach the first camp. (Make a pause, so every server can catch up) at the camp you get some new stuff to do, and explore, until we’re ready to push forward some more (new update).

So just an example, make it so that once the Ressources are ready, the first group there are actually beating the trail, but pack dolyaks, crafters, builders will keep periodically spawning at the gate, and needs to be escorted to the first base camp, because they still need those ressources… So even if you miss that first run, you’re still doing it over and over until the next patch comes out.

So an event like this would last a couple of days/week depending on how good/willing the server is at dumping ressources in it.

This is just an idea, I’m not sure if the event system is acutally able to handle stuff like this.

I like this. WoW did something similar back in the day and it was fun.

Okay, the living world…

right now it`s a big hit and miss, but the overall question is what is the living world? if i am not wrong it is episodic story developement sprinkled with any extension and update to the gameworld/-system that is ready for the time or created for that point.

So if basicly a simple patchday + gameupgrade with a story.

Let us take a look at the story then. Bobby, this one is for you:
You had a great start here. Building up a mystery, dropping clues, till the anniversity. Then it all broke down. As soon as you revealed Scarlet it all tumbled down. You build up a “strategic” mastermind. Someone with an agenda. Someone who put`s pieces into place and then didn`t follow up.
As far as i understand Scarlet get`s every “evil” force together, creating new technology etc. blah blah. (i keep it short here) and has her fingers everwhere.
Great, nice idea, poor execution till the Queens Speech.
We got finaly Scarlet doing her crazy Harley Quinn routine and failing… and taht`s it.
We know nothing about what she wants. Even if she wants terror, it is not clear.
Furthermore, she ended up acting stupid by using her forces which she put in place for what? stupid invasions that are still going on today.
Having her take over divinties reach and have the player fight to get it back would be more meaningfull for the krytan people as some random invasions…

Now i know this is gameplay vs. story. However it wastes a lot of potential..
it devalues scarlet and her alliances.
The invasions make every alliance feel like goons. killing them by the thousand defeats their purpose.

Scarlet had an army, the molten alliance. She had air supperiority, the aetherblades and she even tried to get into the politcs of the world.
She was able to attack from every angle, with unknown technology and magic…

This had potential, however as soon as we knew more about her, it just fell flat. You decided to pour everything into one character, making her unbeliveable.
If she would have something like leutnants, people who take over her weeknesses it would have made much more sense. however now she is a “i can do everything, because science” character.
Unfortunatly you wrote too much already and it now feels like backpaddeling…

So yeah, overall scarlet involvment is kinda a failure.

for the rest? ups and downs i have to admit. some are good, some are bad. Overall it seems like you just pile on top and push everything old under the rug. Which is sad. the foundation is great, but instead of expaning you just “invent” new things.
Even the alliances are like this. creating a new status quo, while the old was bearly touched uppon.
Even if it happened in the PS, the overall factions should have done something on their own first and then join in a later “season”. As far as TV developement goes, you went on it from the wrong side.

For gameplay…

it really feels weird and i can`t put my finger on it.
Archievments are a pain for me. I rather have Story expanded over time, instead of it beeing gated behind archievments for example. Because let`s face it. The Archievment`s associated with the actual meaningof the word are not really that. they are mostly grind. i was so angry as i had to do 8 different invasions or so, just to progress the story…

I have to rethink a bit here, as i have mostly talked about my big gripe here, that beeing the story, as it the mainfocus here.
i cant count anything else here, as it is connected to the story and if not, just pushed in as a bonus, because it is ready.

my advice, focus on one thing. Either story or mechanics.
Also, my advice… and i know you heard it a lot already and i showed my sentiments here quite colorfull.. get rid of scarlet quickly and let us experience more of the world. you know there are so many questions out there. you just put a big WTF on top of it, which is not nearly as interesting as the groundwork you had already…

EverythingXen.1835:

Galen Grey.4709:

Elbegast.6970:

Halvorn.9831:

There is a very general problem.

You cannot have content that creates an evolving world on the one hand and make it stay forever on the other hand. It’s a contradiction. If you defeat the dredge and flame legion, that invasion is no longer there and it makes no sense to still have its dungeons around. Either evolution or persistence. You cannot have both.

I choose evolution. It means, I cannot repeat old content and it will be forever lost and only in my memory or in the history books. That’s the price to pay for an evolving world.

Except that the world hasn’t ‘evolved’ through the LS. You take away the current LS patch and you have essentially the same exact game that was around a year ago. What has evolved?

That isnt true. When Molten Alliance patch was removed it left behind the refugees. Those refugees had direct impact on the next LS segement. They build a ton of infrastructure in southsun. When that ended the infrastructure was left there but the refugees themselves moved over to cragstead. By the end of that Cragstead was rebuilt from a town in ruins. The refugees are there to this day, you can go talking to them. Even little things remain… go to Holbrak to the area where the refugees camp were you can still see to this day the charred ground when the campfires were set and the lack of snow patches where the tents were pitched. The world doesnt reset to its exact state before the patch ones the patch is removed. little changes remain. The story does evolve. Those poor refugees are a good example. created in january they’re still in game today.

The “world” may have evovled, but the game did not. Wayfarer Foothills and Diessa are exactly the same post Flame and Frost, barring 2 new areas that contain no gameplay within them.

When the same LS “chapter” introduces a new enemy faction with new mechanics, two new unique NPCs, and one of the most highly regarded dungeons in the games (albeit short) lifespan… I dont want to be left with only some nameless refugees and different colored pixels in the corner of Hoelbrak.

Actually they did. Wayfarer and Diessa both still have the gyzers that formed while the molten alliance were experimenting with stuff in the facilities. And wayfarer now has cragstead which wasnt there before the molten alliance. Not just that but cragstead itself has evolved post Molten alliance. It started as a village in ruines burned to the ground right after motlen alliance. But after the secrets of southsun the refugees leaving that god forsaken place moved there and started to rebuild it. Now its back to normal though there are still some works there. You can also go there and talk with some of the refugees including the ones for whom you got the momentos back during the molten alliance LS. They even have new dialog to thank you and tell you how they did since you helped them getting back on their feet.

Change doesnt mean new dungeons, change means well things are different then what they used to be before that change. I understand what you’re saying and so does arenanet thats why they promised to get MF back as a fractal after all. That however doesnt change the point that change does happen as the living story plays its course. Those NPCs are just used and thrown away. Both Braham and Rox+frostbite played central part in other LS releases like Scarlet’s funhouse and the refugees where the central theme for the secrets of southsun.

Xar.6185:

cesmode.4257:

I actually had a question about this insatiable need for a dragon-centric story from everyone.

Mainly it is because other villians are out to conquer or subjugate while the very existence of the elder dragons threatens to eraddicate Tyria.

Who cares if alliance number one takes over zone ‘A’ if an elder dragon is going to awaken and destroy the planet?

As a hero, who do you stop? The guy invading fort <whatever> or the primal force of nature that is going to bring about the apocalypse?

In truth you’d go after the immidiate threat even if its a minor one. Strictly speaking it would be strategically unsound to sent your forces after a dragon thats currently leaving you alone and ignoring an invasion force just cause it only theatens part of the world. Doing that will weaken you beyond recovery most likely.

Think what would happen? you got no guarantee you’re going to kill the dragon and you’ll end up with a lot of losses. Meanwhile scarlet’s forces would have an easy time conquering the zone seeing as the warriors are out attacking the dragon. Once scarlet forces take over a zone easily its almost certain they’ll move on the adjestant areas and take advantage from the reduced resistance.

What that means is if your assault on the dragon is successful when you come back tired and with many less warriors then you set out with you’re going to find your home conquered and your family enslaved or worst killed. They would have had time to setup defenses and all. Now imagine if the assault on the dragon isnt even successful. You come back defeated probably with the dragon on your heels to ensure it isnt bothered again and your place of safety is currently occupied by a new enemy.

Tactically speaking as long as the dragons behave it makes a lot of sense to stop scarlet first before waking up the proverbial sleeping dragon.

Television is not an easy medium, I’m going to say that right off the bat. There’s lots of it, different kinds of approaches, vast audiences and tons of junk as well. Capturing lightning in a bottle, like Breaking Bad, is as much luck as skill.

The advantage you have is that you already have your audience. Your disadvantage is they’re crazy. :X

The process of TV Production is pretty well known, game design not so much. It’s nice to see Bobby Stein straight up say that they know they’ve had missteps but you won’t get to see the changes they make for a while. It takes into account production time, something many people in this forum seem to forget. We’re seeing content made months ago, like how episodes of most series are produced. You can see a slow improvement in most updates, but it takes time.

And this is probably the most important factor to consider when doing these releases. The time frames you’re dealing with make this a very slow ship to turn. So making sure each of your episodes are to the point helps. It looks like you were taking a more novel style approach at first with lots of threads, etc. but since this is the first go around with this kind of storytelling in a game ever, it’s better to keep it tight. Beginning, middle, end each update with something to lead into the next. Flame and Frost actually would have had a really good flow under your current two week system.

The last few big updates have done really well on beginning and end, but the middle is lacking. Story wise I think Halloween would have been perfect with a middle act less dependent on completing achievements. Make the new bosses in the labyrinth more characters to defeat than items on a list, etc. You can use achievements to push the story forward, they just need a bit more character.

Also the comm golems are a good idea but it needs to talk as you walk. Mine a candy corn node “humm, seems to be less this year. Maybe the Bloody Prince has something to do with it!” Or maybe have it chirp like the codec in Metal Gear. The one for clockwork chaos I think popped up of its own accord when you found things. More like that! Little things like that help break up the middle and make it feel more alive. It’s more a continuing conversation then something you talk to when you feel like it. Think Glados, avoid Blingg (but bring him back, he’s established in a very strange way…)

Also please don’t listen to the Game of Thrones/Breaking Bad crowd to closely. There are lessons there about production and storytelling structure to be had, but both shows are riding the “Omg I love this! Everything should be exactly like this!” wave right now and that’s why we used to have 10 million law and orders on the air and a whole bunch of twilight ripoffs. Gah, the pain! Those shows excel because they do something unique. Find yours, then everyone will copy you. :p

Also more Consortium :X

Edit: And listen to Edgar! If you’re going to add new maps, make people earn them. It gives players a sense of accomplishment and helps them feel some attachment to them.

One thing that would boost my confidence in the progression of the living story is this:

As the writers, do you know where you are going with the story? So much my frustration with the chaotic, unlinked, and inexplicable story movements could be resolved if I knew that the writers had a point. That the story was completely mapped out. That there was an end; a resolution; a purpose to what’s going on.

In good fiction, the writer has the power to allow the audience to know stuff that the main characters don’t. So you watch the main characters make a stupid decision, and you scream at the book because they did it, knowing full well that their decision was dumb.

In the present state of the LS progression, we are the main characters, stumbling about blindly from one inexplicable reality to the next. This makes for great storytelling AFTER the fact. But it sucks to be part of it in the moment.

If there was some way—ANY way for the writers to be able to communicate to the players that the story is going somewhere, it would help. For me at least.

However, for the benefit of the general populace, I still contend that each part of the LS has to have a credible motivation behind it. In a narrative, characters make the decisions they do for legitimate reasons. They may be the wrong decisions, but they’re genuinely motivated to do so.

The LS needs these kinds of motivations for each installment. And the whole “there’s an evil alliance threatening _______ location” isn’t sufficient motivation. At the moment, the only motivation for participating in the LS is the achievement rewards, and a shot at a random skin (sometimes). A compelling narrative doesn’t need artificial, exterior motivation to get the characters to do what they’re “supposed” to do.

TL;DR – A good story should be sufficient motivation in and of itself for player participation. The LS has none.

Galen Grey.4709:

Change doesnt mean new dungeons, change means well things are different then what they used to be before that change. I understand what you’re saying and so does arenanet thats why they promised to get MF back as a fractal after all. That however doesnt change the point that change does happen as the living story plays its course. Those NPCs are just used and thrown away. Both Braham and Rox+frostbite played central part in other LS releases like Scarlet’s funhouse and the refugees where the central theme for the secrets of southsun.

These changes had no impact on gameplay. We have a new area where nothing happens and new npcs that don’t do anything. MMO’s have been doing this forever. I expect more from this game. How hard would it have been to add a heart related to the new town or a new dynamic event to the area surrounding it.

mercury ranique.2170:

1st off all, thanks for doing this. I really really appreciate it.
Second though is to not only look at the discussion here. Many people who like what you are doing are not writing on the the forum and are only dissapointed when you steer away from what they enjoy. I worked for customer service for a phone company. 99.9% off the people taking the time to contact the company where dissattisfied with something. Still only 2% off the customers ever contacted the company.

So before drawing any conclusions my first advise would be to have an ingame survey.
Discussions both in mapchat and in my guild indicate a totally different view regarding Scarlet then you get out here. an ingame survey would lead to a good view off what ALL of the community wants and not only those that complain.

Personally I like most things bout the living story and yes I like Scarlet and dont udnerstand why people hate her. She wasnt dropped on us. her existance was hinted a long time ago, but too many people dont even read mails they are getting (Eir after flame and frost, indicated that someone was behind this alliance) or listen to in game conversations (First time the name Scarlet was dropped was during the first Aetherblade dungeon by Mai Trin). The first part off the queens jubilee clearly indicated we where going to meet this scarlet and then 2 weeks later she was there. So it was very cleverly done.

My tips for the living story are:
1: No more backpacks or make all current ones skins in the achievement pane. I have actually been picking the PvP-skins off the last two backpacks for the simple reason that I wanted to preserve the skin as proof off my participation, but I dont have any characters that had room for a backpack.

2: More special themed maps like Bazaar, Queens pavillion and labyrinth. Those maps where all very much fun and very active. If you re-use them please make them different. I could imagine that e.g. the bazaar would turn into a battle between aetherblades and merchants and we have to help out the merchants.

3: More clear communication. Many people where disappointing when the TA-overall achievement dissapeared. This is not the first time. I would suggest a timer in the achievement like the daily/monthly timer, indicating how much time you have left.

So far for my 2 cents.

Agree with this.

I start reading this thread and I have to stop because nearly every thread I want to reply with a no, not really or meh. Can the Living Story be better…what can’t? That doesn’t mean it’s not good as it’s been.

In this respect, its like a TV show. You don’t need a survey to see if its popular, you just need to see if players are playing it. If they are that’s all that matters. Sure some will play and say they don’t like it, so what if they keep consuming it. Again, just like a TV show, the biggest complainers (omg, they killed such and such) are often the most dedicated watchers; that means it shouldn’t be changed, not that it should.

Put another way, I’m hoping the developers know they don’t need to substantially change something that people care enough to have strong feelings about. Just hope they keep playing it and complaining, because the alternative is most likely they get what they want and stop playing it.

Finally, things like calling for it all to be permanent and the pacing. A big part of me thinks, hard to argue that it would all still be there. But, if everything ever put in game, needs to stay, then it’s hardly a living changing world and I find that really appealing. Surely, a mix is best. Some temporary and some permanent, which is also what seems to be happening. The only question that raises is related to the pacing question.

On this it seems like some players are suffering a disconnect. They want more of the additions to be permanent, but then they want there to be fewer of them. Heck, I’d be happier with weekly releases. However, I understand biweekly which also actually ties into they same frequency as most TV shows when one considers you can’t do reruns.

Anyway, that’s my thoughts. Please remember that the majority don’t usually post, and while that often doesn’t tell you all that much. In the case of content you shouldn’t need much because you can just check out how popular it is in game.

Keep of the good work and keep changing Tyria.

Galen Grey.4709:

Think what would happen? you got no guarantee you’re going to kill the dragon and you’ll end up with a lot of losses. Meanwhile scarlet’s forces would have an easy time conquering the zone seeing as the warriors are out attacking the dragon. Once scarlet forces take over a zone easily its almost certain they’ll move on the adjestant areas and take advantage from the reduced resistance.

But Scarlett doesn’t take over the zone. She just leaves even if she wins…

Galen Grey.4709:

EverythingXen.1835:

Galen Grey.4709:

Elbegast.6970:

Halvorn.9831:

There is a very general problem.

You cannot have content that creates an evolving world on the one hand and make it stay forever on the other hand. It’s a contradiction. If you defeat the dredge and flame legion, that invasion is no longer there and it makes no sense to still have its dungeons around. Either evolution or persistence. You cannot have both.

I choose evolution. It means, I cannot repeat old content and it will be forever lost and only in my memory or in the history books. That’s the price to pay for an evolving world.

Except that the world hasn’t ‘evolved’ through the LS. You take away the current LS patch and you have essentially the same exact game that was around a year ago. What has evolved?

That isnt true. When Molten Alliance patch was removed it left behind the refugees. Those refugees had direct impact on the next LS segement. They build a ton of infrastructure in southsun. When that ended the infrastructure was left there but the refugees themselves moved over to cragstead. By the end of that Cragstead was rebuilt from a town in ruins. The refugees are there to this day, you can go talking to them. Even little things remain… go to Holbrak to the area where the refugees camp were you can still see to this day the charred ground when the campfires were set and the lack of snow patches where the tents were pitched. The world doesnt reset to its exact state before the patch ones the patch is removed. little changes remain. The story does evolve. Those poor refugees are a good example. created in january they’re still in game today.

The “world” may have evovled, but the game did not. Wayfarer Foothills and Diessa are exactly the same post Flame and Frost, barring 2 new areas that contain no gameplay within them.

When the same LS “chapter” introduces a new enemy faction with new mechanics, two new unique NPCs, and one of the most highly regarded dungeons in the games (albeit short) lifespan… I dont want to be left with only some nameless refugees and different colored pixels in the corner of Hoelbrak.

Actually they did. Wayfarer and Diessa both still have the gyzers that formed while the molten alliance were experimenting with stuff in the facilities. And wayfarer now has cragstead which wasnt there before the molten alliance. Not just that but cragstead itself has evolved post Molten alliance. It started as a village in ruines burned to the ground right after motlen alliance. But after the secrets of southsun the refugees leaving that god forsaken place moved there and started to rebuild it. Now its back to normal though there are still some works there. You can also go there and talk with some of the refugees including the ones for whom you got the momentos back during the molten alliance LS. They even have new dialog to thank you and tell you how they did since you helped them getting back on their feet.

Change doesnt mean new dungeons, change means well things are different then what they used to be before that change. I understand what you’re saying and so does arenanet thats why they promised to get MF back as a fractal after all. That however doesnt change the point that change does happen as the living story plays its course. Those NPCs are just used and thrown away. Both Braham and Rox+frostbite played central part in other LS releases like Scarlet’s funhouse and the refugees where the central theme for the secrets of southsun.

I suppose technically they did. But those changes are inconsequential.

Games dont evolve or change because a ruined city gets built in the background or NPCs move somewhere. This is an interactive medium. A game changes when new mechanics, new ways of playing, or at least content that gets players to play differently are introduced. The MA enemies and dungeon provided that, at least to some degree. With those gone, the gameplay… and by extension the world… becomes stale.

Thankfully Anet has started rectifying that to some extent.

One thing that seems to not be addressed is the fashion of how we are finding “ten toe nails” or twenty rocks" scattered typically in a couple of maps. There seem to be a limited amount of options.

The long and potentially frustrating one – walk the maps up and down and find the needle in the haystack.

Work together in mapchat – depending on server and time potentially nice.

Fastest would be – ask “dulfy”, which is also the least immersive from my point of view and degrades the task to a semi-chore to get over with.

This might be somewhat related to the storytelling part – are there other options that Anet might be investigating to … make this sort of hunt more interesting? Radarblips, NPC’s that give clues and pointers perhaps?

Along with this would also go the “tracking” part in a sense – where was I, which one of the twenty rocks have I already picked up?

It might be a little too specific for this discussion, but it’s one of those points where I personally go … mhhh, why is there seemingly no effort to improve this? Perhaps some feedback or brainstorming would be possible.

I’m an engineer, so maybe this is WAY too data-driven of a way to look at it, but here’s what I think would be interesting: build a list of types of content. Cut scenes, “find X rocks,” “kill Y things,” dungeon paths, new maps, etc. Rate each activity on three measures: effort to create, fun for players, replayability for players. Make a 3D graph.

I get the feeling that certain things are being done because they are quick to create, like the “fix signposts” and “find these things scattered around” kind of activities. Those aren’t very fun, though, nor are they the sort of thing you’d like to do over and over and over.

I’m curious if there’s a few activities that stand out as having only moderate effort to build but are lots of fun to do. Jumping puzzles and mini-dungeons seem most likely to fit the bill, but it’d be interesting to see what the full dataset looks like if you have, I dunno, 20 or 30 different content types listed.

Galen Grey.4709:

ColinJohanson.2394:

So a fun question to ask to help direct the conversation a bit: What aspects of your favorite television shows would you think would be cool to see reflected in a game medium?

My favorite TV show is Babylon 5.Why?

because of its huge story arch
living story accomplishes that very well here. I love how a seemingly single character + some one powerful in DR has so far managed to get together Flame legion + dredge, pirates+inquest, krait + nightmare court. I am curious what was the driving force behind it.

because of character development
Living story does this relatively well. Little things like fun dialog between Braham, Frostbite and Rox helps in that it gives a reference on how the characters act and think. The little short stories released on the web are also little gems in this regard.

because it wasnt predictable
Again I feel Gw2 does a good job here. We dont fully know whats driving Scarlet and what her end game is but we know what’s causing it. Frankly I cannot tell at this point how the whole Scarlet saga will end and thats great. Some people have asked Arenanet to divulge where the story is headed but I think that would be a mistake. Trying to speculate whats going to happen next is half the fun and knowing where the ending is going to be will ruin that. Personal story is a good case in point. As much as people seem to hate story telling in LS, I personally find it great so far. With a good ending it will all become even better.

because main characters were mortal
This is where the LS is a bit weak. Main characters so far feel immortal. Thats one thing I hated in many Tv shows. If you’re a main character there is no need to worry when you’re in peril we know you’ll get out of it. Babylon 5 was great in that regard… it was the first show I saw that wasnt afraid to kill off its main characters. It would be nice if the same thing happened in LS as well.

I feel that thinking about an MMO as a TV series underscores the most important distinction between the two media. In an MMO, our characters are the protagonists. In a TV series, I’m the spectator. The fact that Galen’s post cites “main characters,” meaning NPC’s, points to the greatest single flaw in the Living World initiative.

I’m not saying that TV cannot inspire some aspects of an RPG, but there are limits.

One of the greatest strengths of Babylon 5 was seeing the story unfold from episode to episode over the course of a 4 season long story (plus a season of denouement). Another was the option to buy the DvD and watch it at my convenience. In GW2, I cannot (yet) do that.

ColinJohanson.2394:

So a fun question to ask to help direct the conversation a bit: What aspects of your favorite television shows would you think would be cool to see reflected in a game medium?

To a large degree, the things we want to accomplish with living world overlap in a lot of ways with what a television series does. Or another example of our goals: if you bought your favorite RPG and the story was constantly expanded or continued, for free on a regular basis.

I’m not saying we’re doing all of these things above, those are simply the goals we have to help make Gw2 unique and something innovative in the genre through a dynamic living world we envisioned 7 odd years ago.

I personally think we have a lot of work to do to get to the point we’re succeeding on these goals, but with every step along the way we’re learning an incredible amount. Some fantastic ideas and comments in this thread, and many of them match our own feelings on living world and what would make it successful as well. Many of these ideas are things you’ve all been suggesting for months (or longer) and will be reflected in future releases. Remember what you see today we started work on 4-5 months ago (or longer), so the lag time to adjust to feedback and what we learned isn’t going to be instant, it’ll come in waves of evolutions with each round of feedback and discussion.

Hi Colin, thanks for taking time to hear us.

I love what you are trying to do. Here what I like about TVShow:

Short Season
In a season there several episode with a main focus and a end with a start of a new intrigue for the second season. I would love to see GW2 season of 8 to 12 episodes. So there a villain in the fisrt season. The hero overcome the villain project and a new villain arise or something completly different happen.

Replay
I love that when I miss a episode or a season, I can purchase the season at my store or netflix and watch it when I have time on my tv.

Evolution
The protagonist usally get some new skill, reputation and friends when the serie evolve. While challenge get harder and harder, he get better.

What I love about LW right now
Dungeon achivement, new dungeon, new ennemies, new armor. Some story, flame and frost, ToN.

What I would love to see in LW
New Map achivements, new event that don’t need to be LW related but with achivement, Same looking solo story of ToN but groupable. More character based plot. I want to be the story, not following NPC story.

More living in the living story
Here the thing, I want to be more involed in the story. I love the fact that sometime a npc come near me and ask me for help. It don’t feel it in LW right now. You have build a marvellous system of dynamic event but in LW thing just spawn somewhere and you have to go there, swing your sword and wipe all foes and then a new thing spwan somewhere else so you go there, swing your sword again and wipe all the foes again and again until your achivement is done. I would love to see something more evolving like the Balthazar chain events. It start somewhere and then split, and finally come to a place where we all go and destroy the evil for a period of time. If you look back at the Balthazar chain, it a pure marvellous ansomeness new gen dynamic event. If LW was like that… and you have some achivement for the way you chose so you need to do it more than one time and of course it can fail and you have to try it again. I would love it!

More grouped instanced stuff
Like the atherblades pirate that were stealing the tresure in the Sanctum LW. I love those short instanced stuff that you can do with a small group of friend. Would be nice if we could have one in every LW. Like in ToN small place where you need to defend something, or kill a boss. Those short thing make LW better!

What I will love to see every LW season
at the end of a season :
A New permanent donjon

at the start of a season:
A New Permanent short instanced group stuff
A bunch of new Permanent dynamic event.
Some Related LW events
Some Related LW enemies
Some Related LW Weapons, armors, skills.
Related LW Achivements

Thanks for your time.

Galen Grey.4709:

Xar.6185:

cesmode.4257:

I actually had a question about this insatiable need for a dragon-centric story from everyone.

Mainly it is because other villians are out to conquer or subjugate while the very existence of the elder dragons threatens to eraddicate Tyria.

Who cares if alliance number one takes over zone ‘A’ if an elder dragon is going to awaken and destroy the planet?

As a hero, who do you stop? The guy invading fort <whatever> or the primal force of nature that is going to bring about the apocalypse?

In truth you’d go after the immidiate threat even if its a minor one. Strictly speaking it would be strategically unsound to sent your forces after a dragon thats currently leaving you alone and ignoring an invasion force just cause it only theatens part of the world. Doing that will weaken you beyond recovery most likely.

You missed the point entirely.

The response was to the question ‘Why do players seem to want a dragon centric story’, not what is the best tactial way for us to analyze the threats facing every tyrian and react accordingly.

Players want to be hero’s, saving the world, not local enforcers stamping out fires.

Of course the mad-sylvari who is somehow trying to kill us has our immediate attention. It doesn’t mean that is the story the posters in this thread are aksing for.

First of all thanks for this opportunity.

1) Too much content and no time to digest it. This is becoming more like a job than a game. I am starting to feel that “I must” log in to the game to be up to date and not miss the… title, achievement, etc.

2) Living world content poorly designed. Bosses to hard to kill. It becomes boring hitting the same NPC for 20 minutes or be instant killed by them like the Lich or Corn bosses. The Horror tracks you all over the map and re-spawn in the middle of a fight with another bosses. Is boring or frustrating.

3) Please add a wardrobe or something to store the armor sets. The inventory is full of peaces of armor. A way to switch them would be nice too like “WvW/Pve/Pvp” or something like that.

4) I am stacking badges of honor for what? Make something cool to spend them. If I killed 200.000 enemies I want to look cooler than the one who killed 10. Wvs is not rewarding. Each new level gives you some greens or yellows and blue prints.. and 8s… Why not every 10 lvls add 10+ range for example or +10 vitality.

5) What is the intend of the titles in WvW? None stands to read them “Hey look a squire be careful” You just look for green or red. Make something distinguishable from a certain distance. Grade scales for the name, icons or whatever.

6) I can´t see my mate´s titles in WvW. I want to follow a guy who knows what he is doing (spending 100 g don´t give you that).

7) Long lasting content pls. Unique useful items as rewards pls. Like portal to any mayor city if you completed all the hearts, exploration, quest 1, 2, and 4 in that city. If you kill 1000 x monster then you can place a trophy of it in your house.

8) Home instance? Too big, to crowded with npcs I don´t want. Make something smaller, customizable like a small keep with a waypoint, npcs to trade, nodes, trees in the yard, plants to harvest all acquired by doing quest, challenges. I took a screenshot. I want to place a picture with it in the wall. I don´t want to look for the waypoint of my home instance in the map. Add a skill to go to it pls. You could also create a toolbar with favourity waypoints “kitten up! ok let me scroll yes north east… be there in a … SORRY dead!” The first “free” waypoint could be Lions Arch.

9) I don´t feel a bond with my character or the story. I hardly remember it. I would like him to improve with the time spent in the game. Its like everyone is a copy of you with a different look and knowing that is sad.

I would like to throw in a vote for having living world updates be more beautiful. There is plenty of destruction out there. I would love to see gorgeously rendered evil, like the surreal drowned beauty of Orr, rather than pure ugliness, like destroyed Kessex.

Babylon 5 has come up a few times, and I think there is a subtle lesson in that’s story’s progression that the ANet writing crew could stand to refresh themselves on.

The best thing that ever happened to Babylon 5 was losing regular access to the actor who played the station commander in season 1. Not because his performance was anything less than solid, but because it forced them to split up an overwhelming amount of plot focus across two characters that was originally envisioned as a single character’s arc. Both characters were stronger for the seperation of roles it imposed.

Scarlet is simply too slender of a branch to support all the burden you’re putting on the character. People aren’t buying it. If anything she’s the walking embodiment of what happens when you forget ‘less is more.’ Graduating from 2 Asuran Colleges would have made her amazing, but you couldn’t resist making it a hat trick. Creating any two of the hostile forces we’ve faced in the Living Story would class her as extremely formidable threat, buts she’s done it four times now and shows no signs of slowing down. You’d get more mileage out of about 3 characters being attributed to what you’ve poured onto a single set of shoulders so far. You’d also have been better positioned to sacrifice one or two those character to the players’ greater glory. Instead you have the tediously untouchable Dark Trehearne and this unending “we’ll get her next time!” routine straight out of the Superfriends.

Just my own personal preference, I prefer the opposite regarding zone changes. I would like more permanent zone changes.

Permanent zone changes are fine, so long as they are for the better. In this case they made Kessex considerably uglier and sadder, and that should not stand. If they want to take already ugly zones and make them uglier? Fine. If they want to take ugly zones and make them prettier? Fine. If they want to make rlatively neutral changes like knocking over buildings or whatever, fine, but permanent changes should not be for the worse.

Nike.2631:

Scarlet is simply too slender of a branch to support all the burden you’re putting on the character. People aren’t buying it. If anything she’s the walking embodiment of what happens when you forget ‘less is more.’..

This post deserves my +1 because it is spot on with the problems I have with her right now.
If she had multiple lieutenants who worked with other races and took what was needed to further her plans, it wouldn’t have been so bad. They sort of did that with Dragon Bash, but those hopes were dashed.

Ohoni.6057:

Just my own personal preference, I prefer the opposite regarding zone changes. I would like more permanent zone changes.

Permanent zone changes are fine, so long as they are for the better. In this case they made Kessex considerably uglier and sadder, and that should not stand. If they want to take already ugly zones and make them uglier? Fine. If they want to take ugly zones and make them prettier? Fine. If they want to make rlatively neutral changes like knocking over buildings or whatever, fine, but permanent changes should not be for the worse.

I think the new Kessex Hills is INCREDIBLE. I loaded the game and ran around for a bit there about an hour before the patch. When I loaded back, the change was nothing short of gut-wrenching. It was perfect.

It was gut wrenching, yes. And ugly as sin. Not beauty ruined, like Ascalon, or a strange and wicked sea change, like Orr. Just … ugly.

EDIT – Which is NOT to say they didn’t do an amazing job. It’s just an amazing job I am going to have zero desire to look at.

I’ve skimmed the thread some bit (was reading properly first but there’s just SO MUCH) and many of the points I want to make have been brought up.

But I’ll iterate those I find most important.

- Consequences for failure should be tangible. Right now the “invasions” going on are just temporary champ farms. If anything it’d make more sense if the battle wasn’t against the literal clock but rather against slowly incoming re-inforcements. So, leaving a reagion be would fill it to a set max number of invaders but it’s possible to whittle the invasion down eventually (shouldn’t take long seeing as there tend to be a whole bunch of people at every invasion). And have the invasion spawn close to usable NPC’s so that there’s some extra incentive to kill invaders and free the NPC’s. The timed shenanigans make no sense at the moment and those who actually want to get the events done look on champ farmers with some dislike.

- Tying into previous point, consequences of failure for killing dragons. Kralkatorrik could start roaming the reagion if undefeated. Same with Tequatl and Claw of Jormag. There needs to be a more tangible reason for why they should be defeated, apart from fancy loot. It would also make more sense if there wasn’t a timer and the dragons were more mobile than just being stationary at just one spot. They can fly, they should occasionally take off and do strafe runs!

- It would be very nice if the centaurs and charr/human separatist factions could get their own living stories so that the current events could be resolved. The centaurs could move on after a too big defeat (even though their head mage guy has been killed an extreme number of times already) but might come back later on for revenge. Or the status could go into something like between humans and charr, a very fragile peace treaty with rebels. The charr and human separatists could get quelled but a staged conspiracy event could reignate that in a future update, same with eventual centaur separatists.

Using already existing conflicts in LW/LS would be nice, so that one actually feels like there was some progress done, doing all those renown hearts and dynamic events (although there’s many dynamic events that stand on their own just fine).

I’d also like to add something else that already has been said; two week frquency is too high, Scarlet seems a bit like a Mary Sue (no sylvari is even over the age of 30!) and the rewards should rather be usable items than minis and backpacks (I guess skins for armor and/or weapons could work too if not given actual items).

I have studied game design for three years so I could write a design document for you but sadly, I do not have the time (nor the knowledge of your future plans and inner workings so…). Thanks for the opportunity to give some feedback!

Can we make sure reward structure doesn’t get lost in the conversation about pacing?

Scarlet needs to go.
I’m tired of every single new release being based on "Scarlet united “evil” races X and Y to form Evil Alliance Z because she has a gift of speech (even though we never see it in-game, she’s annoying to listen to). Now go fight her."

When I saw the changes made in Kessex, I was excited. Finally something new, something which explores and builds on lore instead of demolishing it. The krait are preparing a massive attack? And there’s an obelisk on the content preview? Sweet!

When I saw the huge obelisk with the gigantic, evil thistle growing out of it and the sylvari wandering around, I got a bit sceptic, but I chose to believe a quaggan NPC who claimed that the krait had enslaved the sylvari. Fair enough. I can see that happen. This certainly all seems sufficiently cruel.

I also chose to disregard the fact that the krait are historically xenophobic, having only ever enslaved or destroyed other races and used them in blood rituals. And nevermind the fact that the Nightmare Court was supposedly formed partially with the intent to combat the krait and other malign creatures attacking the sylvari.

It all came crashing down when Scarlet was brought in.
And I don’t understand why.
Why is Scarlet still alive?
Why did the krait accept her terms instead of gutting her and taking the obelisk shards?
Why did the Nightmare Court agree to ally the krait?
Why would anyone at all anywhere ever even consider taking Scarlet’s side after all her recent failures?
The Molten Alliance failed.
The Aetherblade Pirates failed.
The assassination attempt on Queen Jennah failed.
The invasion of all of Tyria failed.
Everything she does only ends up getting her minions killed, and then she goes back to plotting and scheming and breaking lore like there’s no tomorrow.
Not only does she break lore, but she’s also a Mary Sue to boot.

She spent eight years studying in The Grove. We don’t know what she studied, but she studied things, so already at this point, eight years spent learning about Tyria, she should be pretty knowledgeable.
Then she was taught blacksmithing by the norn. I’d be inclined to believe that if she hadn’t apparently mastered everything one of the best norn blacksmiths had to teach her in the span of only one winter.
After that, she was taught firearms and artillery technology by the charr over the course of two years, even though we know the Iron Legion only shares a very limited amount of technological knowledge with other races. They’ve shown some asura scientists some basic metallurgy (enough to prove how awesome the Legion is at it) and gave the Ebon Vanguard some outdated black powder (“here, have this, we have something way more powerful so we don’t need it.”)
Following her adventure with the Iron Legion, she graduated from all three asura Colleges (two of them in less than a year), even though we know there’s competition between the Colleges. Also, I have never heard of any non-asura even attending a College, much less graduating with perfect scores from all three.
We know that she studied at the Colleges of Dynamics and Statics, graduating in less than a year, but all we’re told about Synergetics is that she “took her time” because it interested her.
After that, she briefly stayed with the Inquest before getting booted out of Rata Sum and moving on to learn alchemy from the hylek until she was found by Omadd. This is where it gets even more over the top:
After a few months of preparation, she enters the machine they built and SEES THE ETERNAL ALCHEMY.
This makes her completely crazy (for some reason), and for reasons unknown, she sets out to begin her scheme to destroy Tyria(??).

On top of all this, she is supposedly also gifted with charisma and a silver tongue, even though we never see this in-game. All we ever get is a psychotic lunatic who tells us to die a lot.

On top of that, she has the magical ability to throw endless quantities of hapless minions at us from somewhere. I guess there’s a dimension where everyone is either a charr, a dredge or an Aetherblade pirate.

So to sum it up:
Scarlet is a sylvari secondborn(?) who has all the combined technological knowledge of the Rata Sum Colleges, the Iron Legion, the norn, the hylek and the Inquest, unlimited resources at her disposal, an inexplicable ability to sway “evil” factions into evil alliances, can open portals, can teleport, can survive just about anything, has travelled all over Tyria and has seen the Eternal Alchemy.
It feels like Arena Net asked Matt Ward to write the best villain he could.

So here is what I suggest, ANet: GET RID OF SCARLET.

Don’t do it for me, because I’m quitting the game now. I don’t think you can do it – this last update proved to me that you don’t know how to advance the plot anymore without involving Scarlet. Do it for yourselves and the people who still play the game.

You could have done so much with this update. There are a thousand ways the krait could have initiated this on their own without Scarlet, and a thousand more ways for the Nightmare Court to have started it all. There is so much lore to explore, so much we could find out about the krait and their religion, their society, their culture now that they have apparently started their full-scale invasion of Tyria. It could be the Prophets returning, it could be the krait enslaving a faction of Nightmare Courtiers and using them for their own nefarious purposes, it could be the Nightmare Courtiers who infected the krait with their evil poison spores and the miasma the gigantic, evil thistle spews out.
Instead, you just go “Scarlet did it again” – again.

I loved your game. There was so much in it. Everything from the uneasy ceasefire between the charr and the humans to the enigmatic awakening of the Elder Dragons and all the implications of the events leading up to, during and after the awakening of individual Dragons.

You’re ruining it. I’m angry, I’m disappointed, I’m sad and I’m heartbroken. I was getting really involved with the game and its lore. Then it started crumbling, and now I just won’t stand for it anymore.

Goodbye, good luck, and thank you for everything before Scarlet.

-Vethrir Blackmoor, Iron Legion

Chris Whiteside.6102:

At the end of the day i want to make sure we have enough time to discuss the topic with you and not feel rushed.

I’m glad to see you’re hearing what we’re saying! ;-)

As exciting as it is to have updates every two weeks, that deadline is as much ours as it is yours.

I think just about everything has been said about pacing, though, so I’ll just leave it at that.

I feel like the Living Story is like questing in most other MMOs: it’s not really connected to the world. One of the most attractive parts of GW 2 was the idea of semi-permanence with the events I do. The Living World doesn’t have that feeling. Stuff is just kind of happening on top of the world and when it’s over the world more or less returns to normal.

One problem with this is the new enemies. The Molten Alliance was novel. The Toxic Alliance is stale. I don’t think the Krait or Nightmare Court needed to be combined to be compelling enemies. I think the Krait tower would have been a compelling story without the help of the Nightmare Court. The biggest problem I had with Farscape is that D’Argo suddenly gets his own functional ship in season 4 with minimal mention of it in previous seasons. It just appears. It’s the same kind of thing with these new enemy alliances and Scarlet. A degree of mystery is compelling, but eventually we have to get a backstory on these enemies and I feel this is unnecessarily complicating. When Crais comes back with Talon, I know who he is and what his motivations are. I know the current enemies in GW 2.

We have so many compelling storylines in Guild Wars 2 already which can be expanded upon. They don’t even necessarily need to conclude or be particularly threatening. Above, someone referred to the peace treaty negotiations in the Fields of Ruin. A part of the Living Story can be that Queen Salma and Smodur the Unflinching are going to personally meet to speed negotiations. Obviously separatists and renegades are going to try and stop both of them. This is the status quo of the world but it can still be exciting. There doesn’t need to be an extraordinary enemy or plot. There’s a plethora of activities involving all of the enemies native to the Fields of Ruin and Blazeridge Steppes which can take place. At the conclusion of the event, the two simply have to meet. The negotiations don’t have to finish. They can concern something like the territorial rights of the peaceful ogres or ownership of the Searing Crystals as cultural artifacts. However, this is permanently in the lore and is happening in the living world of GW 2.

Look at the Princess in Farscape’s second season had this kind of thing. The cast lands on this planet where mating is done genetically and the princess’s DNA has been poisoned to not have a mate. Jon Crichton, being human and having related but not familiar DNA, is a match. Both the Peacekeepers and Scarans (opposing factions) are attempting to solidify their political hold over the sector by allying with this planet. These are normal things to be happening in the show. The power struggles between the Peacekeepers and Scarans is a theme of the show. It’s the status qou. There is no phenomenal ending for the three-part episode or epic clash. Crighton leaves with the rest of the cast but the episodes fundamentally change the relationship dynamic in the show. It’s not particularly epic but is exciting based on the powerful writing of commonplace events.

If we’re fighting invasions, we can fight the enemies already there. The potential to create very powerful enemies exists in races such as the Jotun, Krait, and Dragons. However, these enemies are deeply embedded in the lore. The Jotun and Krait are both known to have extremely powerful artifacts. The Destroyers, in particular, are supposedly capable of popping up anywhere. If an invasion were to happen anywhere at anytime, then the Destroyers are the most plausible source. Again, this is an antagonist deeply bound in the lore and when we’re done, it’s permanently in the lore. The Destroyers still exist. They’re a permanent part of the world. The Molten Alliance, though, is more or less gone forever and when we’re done with the Krait Tower, the Toxic Alliance will be more or less gone forever.

If something needs to be added to the world to signify permanence, points of interest can be moved or maps can be changed. For instance, for the Destroyers, we can fight a new lieutenant of the Destroyers. Lets call him Cheddar the Mountain Heart and he’s a giant Destroyer Wurm. He dies. Why not leave his corpse in Pinion Pass and add a point of interest? Add “Cheddar’s Fall” in corollary to “Maw’s Rise.” The map could be changed so he could hollow out a cave behind “Maw’s Rise” where Destroyers could live. Although I know that is harder to do than write, it does add a layer of “what I do/did matters in this game.” That stuff happened and there’s big evidence that it happened.

I hope the point I am trying to make is clear. The Living World is alive, yeah, but it doesn’t quite feel like a part of GW 2. Instead of making new things, I feel like evolving the things we have will make a truly Living World.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

It is great to see the discussion evolve. When i get some time i will be posting about the Living World cadence and entering that part of discussion with you all.

With time in mind i don’t think a week is long enough to discuss this topic so we will keep the close date open. At the end of the day i want to make sure we have enough time to discuss the topic with you and not feel rushed.

Chris

Pacing is ancillary to the real issue—that is storytelling. It becomes a problem when the pacing and not the story is the primary focus of the releases. So yes—please do address the pacing issue, but do so in a way that puts it in its proper place within the context of proper storyboarding.

I’ll echo others here by saying that pacing is just one of the many problems with the LS. If pacing and pacing alone is addressed as a result of this thread, it’s a colossal waste of time. If the core of the system is borked, addressing a symptom won’t solve the problem.

If, however, the priority remains two-week releases, then the “story” component needs to go. Rather than try and tell a story, just add random new stuff every two weeks. You can’t have both.

The TV model will not work.

In terms of reward structure, I have the following criticisms to offer:

• Living world reward structure feels like a one-trick pony. There isn’t enough variety in reward acquisition methods.

• We have minor achievement rewards that are either resource nodes in our home instances or small cosmetic items like head/back skins. These are cool in that they show you did something, but they often feel unsatisfying, especially when that’s all we’re getting.

• Too many items are either random drop chance and/or tradeable. This is a problem because it results in two key issues – players feeling unrewarded when they do the content and don’t get any reward, players feeling unmotivated to do the content because they have no guarantee of a reward, and players feeling as though the best option is to simply farm the gold to buy the item on the trading post. This is particularly evident with the Twilight Arbor Aetherpath weapon skins. I would much prefer a system more akin to the dungeon tokens you were using on launch. It provided measurable progress towards an achieveable goal, and obtaining the item proved that it was you who earned it, not someone else who then sold it to you.

• This ties nicely into my second point – it feels like there are not enough rewards to give challenge-focused players something to strive for. All too often the rewards feel like candy handed out simply for being there. That’s great to have, but it’d be nice to have some unique titles/skins/minipets given out as a reward for a truly difficult accomplishment within the living world updates. Liadri was a step in the right direction.

• A complete lack of new armour skins in the living world. Seriously, we haven’t seen a single, full new armour set since the launch of the game outside of the gem store, which is a shame since collecting and mixing and matching new armour sets was a core pillar of GW2’s reward structure on release. It was also one of the most fun parts of GW2’s reward structure on release.

• Too many rewards on the gem store, not enough in-game. I understand you need to push the gem store so that people will feel compelled to spend money to support development, but I feel like you need to carefully evaluate whether you have the balance right. For example, this Halloween you offer us a full weapon set in the Black Lion chests, two new town clothes sets on the gem store, and Halloween fireworks. In-game, we have the same limited selection of skins for three weapon types we had last year, a mask that has almost nothing distinguishing it from the generic masks we had leveling up, and a candy corn elemental. The ‘updated reward’ from the Clocktower is exotic gloves with a generic leveling skin that does not offer any distinguishment at all. I hope you are seeing the imbalance here. The gem store is fine, neglecting in-game rewards for it is not.

So, my suggestions for the future are fairly obvious but I’ll list them down anyway:

• Less random rewards, more guaranteed rewards.

• Less tradeable rewards, more bind-on-pickup rewards to promote a sense of accomplishment, prestige and actually playing the content.

• Less neglected rewards that help distinguish you as a reward for difficult content, such as the Clocktower.

• More varied and interesting reward methods.

• Something more akin to the dungeon token system where appropriate.

• Easing up on tradeable crafting materials as an ingredient for living world rewards.

• A more equal gem store-to-in-game reward balance.

I hope these criticisms and suggestions are helpful, and I’m thankful for this Collaborative Development initiative.

Hi Chris and team. Thanks for the chance to discuss this with you.

I’d like to comment about cadence

I prefer the two week release schedule

I’m an active player in an active guild on SBI. Since the Living World began, I’ve never heard in chat anyone complaining about the releases coming too fast.

Commonly seen in map chat: “I’m bored.”

Commonly seen in guild chat: “Hello everyone! What should I do today?”

Active players consume content voraciously, quickly, and want more sooner.

I had to add a voice to this thread to say that active players never say no to more stuff to do. We love it.

The voices of the folks saying the Living World pacing is too fast deserve to be heard, because the reasons they can’t play more frequently or more hours are all reasonable things like jobs, family, trips, health, etc.

I have noticed that this thread, like many others, is weighted heavily with the folks who are not satisfied with the way things are. And I understand from what the dev team has said, is that that tends to be true for forums, ie, the folks who are happy with the game are underrepresented in the forums because they’re in the game enjoying themselves.

So all I can hope is that you have other metrics to discover the reaction to the decisions you make other than forums full of players who, for one legitimate reason or another, aren’t happy with the game.

TL;DR No active GW2 player with whom I interact in-game has ever complained about LW pacing being too fast. I look forward to the continuing discussion and in the end I hope that most players will be at peace with what you decide is the best choice for the largest number of players, while keeping an ear open for legitimate issues raised about pacing for folks who just don’t have the time to play a lot.

I want to be the hero.

I want the story to revolve around me. I want cinematic experiences that shows me being the hero instead of some side-kick doing the work.

Wow, that’s a lot of pages of stuff. Too much for me to read everything, so I’ll just briefly give you my opinion of the Living Story.

The LS is mostly just background noise.

That is to say, what’s happening with it doesn’t matter to me, it just happens and if some aspect of it appeals to me, like getting a set of dragon wings or something, then I’ll do the stuff that leads to that goal, but mostly I just ignore it and do whatever.

There are aspects of it that are good, I liked the Dragon Bash for its festive atmosphere, and the story-based instances are interesting enough. It’s fun for short bursts to run with a zerg farming the Pavillion and Scarlet’s invasions, but not enough to carry the entire concept. Most of it just fades into the background as busy work to keep bored players logging in.

I do agree with the majority though, Scarlet is a poor excuse for a villainous mastermind. She reminds me of characters from comic books of generations past – you have the ambition to write a Watchmen-style story but feature a villain like Mr. Myx-whatever who can do anything but just ends up being comic relief.

It wouldn’t surprise me to see Scarlet captured, only to have Shaggy and Scooby wander by and pull off her mask to reveal she’s really Old Man Jenkins in disguise. There isn’t anything remotely believable about the character.

It seems like the focus of the each story is too unique, as though every team is just doing its own thing with one team going “I like charr! Let’s do something with the Flame Legion!” while another says “I wanna be a pirate!” and a third says “Quaggans are cute, let’s kill some krait for them!” Scarlet doesn’t work as very well as a meta-plot to tie everything together.

My suggestion is to wrap up the current story ASAP and sit down with every team in one room and discuss LS 2.0. Map out where the story is going to go from the beginning instead of using poorly conceived tropes to provide a framework. Pick the next dragon to be a Big Bad and start nudging the development of the world towards the final confrontation with it. For example, if you want to focus on Jormag then explore the Norns’ frustration at being driven from the homeland and their preparations to take it back. With holiday themes and a subplot of reclaiming Orr from the Risen (zombies are just tiresome these days, so many movies and games feature them that I just groan whenever I see more pop up) you can easily get a year or two of updates just from this plot.

And because the dragons are supposed to be over-the-top powerful forces of nature and chaos, completely alien to and uncaring towards the various races of the world, they are justified as ultimate enemies and already established as a reason for all the races of the world to put aside their differences and join forces. I don’t know why anyone felt the need to create such a character when you already have several waiting in the shadows.

ColinJohanson.2394:

So a fun question to ask to help direct the conversation a bit: What aspects of your favorite television shows would you think would be cool to see reflected in a game medium?

To a large degree, the things we want to accomplish with living world overlap in a lot of ways with what a television series does. Or another example of our goals: if you bought your favorite RPG and the story was constantly expanded or continued, for free on a regular basis.

I’m not saying we’re doing all of these things above, those are simply the goals we have to help make Gw2 unique and something innovative in the genre through a dynamic living world we envisioned 7 odd years ago.

I personally think we have a lot of work to do to get to the point we’re succeeding on these goals, but with every step along the way we’re learning an incredible amount. Some fantastic ideas and comments in this thread, and many of them match our own feelings on living world and what would make it successful as well. Many of these ideas are things you’ve all been suggesting for months (or longer) and will be reflected in future releases. Remember what you see today we started work on 4-5 months ago (or longer), so the lag time to adjust to feedback and what we learned isn’t going to be instant, it’ll come in waves of evolutions with each round of feedback and discussion.

None. The problem is that playing games is active, while watching show in TV is passive.

I don’t want to get temporary content that have very little impact on the world.

The new patch is step in good direction. The changes are quite big, and you can see that something chagned in the world. I approve that.

But this release shows the next problem. Which is just awful zerging of content. I will be frank. I saw yesterday 70 people zerg on one event, and I just didn’t got any participation in that event. Because I couldn’t even tag single mob. Mobs died to fast. I just loged off. I have no wish to participate in this entire thing right now. People will be just zergining events to death.

All new events that are introduced should be in form meta-event that will split zerg apart. And please remove loot from mobs in events. Instead just provide bigger winning reward. Loot from mobs encourage zergs, because more poeple = more mobs = more loot. Bad design.

Reward skill, not mindless zerg and facerolling over keyboard.

As for being innovative. No. I disagree. Living Story is not innovative. On the beginig it was adding new things to existng content (which is nothing new). And then taking it away (that was new, but in bad way). And it was pretty much this way until current patch. It added some new and bigger,, but it’s not innovative in it self. Altering existing content, feel more like fixing what didn’t work, more than innovation. Although I must admit not many companies tried the approach of altering existing content.

The really innovative approach is EverQuest Next (whether it will work or not is diffrent matter). But the idea is that most of the content in EQN is procedurally generated. The AI will be organic and truly impacting world on live basis, not ever random amount of time. And most important thing. Every world in EQN can look diffrent because of that. On some servers cities can be razed to the ground. On other there might be forest, and on diffrent server entertance to dungeon.

My point is that game is not tv show. You can’t make living world by adding static content often. It’s still static world, just with more frequent updateds.
Living World is when, the world it’s living on it’s own. It’s when NPCs can fight among each other, when they can make more organic decisions based on set of rules (the faction X doesn’t like Faction Z, so they try to annihilate each other, But faction Y can get along faction X so they can form organic alliance on their own). The war between factions can remove content from game (like destroy city, alter landscape).
It would also invovle real players invovlment. If the city is razed, players must gather resources to rebuild it. The tru diffrence between Living World and updates is that if the world would be living, the player could see progress of the city building every time they look at it. Not by gathering absurd amount of resources over two weeks, and after two weeks the city magically appear on the map.
I’d be more compelled to participate if I could see that city over period of two weeks is slowly raising up. And players are actually using TOOLS to build it. So it’s not automagically building it self.

Living World must be live. Not often updated.

In any case I made most of my points in previous post in this thread so I won’t repeate my self.

More lore related stories are Always good, The guild wars universe has such a good lore but it’s not being used to it’s fullest imo. also I think alot of people agree with me the living story should be more darker themed sometimes (with this patch we have a nice start, now i hope we don’t go back to the tipical scarlet “i hate everything and it should just all die” story but something deeper and more intense would be nice.

Also, just to get it out of my head and i know alot of people will disagree with me here, the living story is good and all but the most living experience i ever had was the lost shores opening in November 2012. It was TRULY living, think about it and leave the lag/1 time and no repeat aside and think about how living it was ; we landed on the Island and got to explore and escort the workers that builded camps and bridges and defence lines against the wildlife threatening us. the landing and major fights around southsun were truly truly epic and never has any mmo world felt more alive than that moment in november. If you could only do something about the major lag on those occasions and something that people will be able to repeat it… and by doing something that living you can also leave something behind aswell.

Let me give you an example for what i mean. my example is just something i made up real quick to explain it, don’t take it too serious.
Say, somewhere in the future we get a living story about a gathering point for a destroyer army in the ring of fire, primordus has starting gathering his troops there and there is something on the Island that makes them stronger.

We sail out to stop that from happening and to try to destroy the magical object from empowering his army. We land on the shores and we immediately have a hard time setting foot. we get a landing, this will be set on say. day 1 of the release. we have to assault the shore and build camps and clear the destroyers. now after this is done the shores will stay available but not more of the Island. Now 1 new small zone has opened and dynamic events will stay there with capturing objectives and defending against destroyers, a war zone so to say. there can also be personal missions there related to the main characters to get to know them better. You can maybe use asura technology to let people queue up who missed it and they will be invited into a server with say 50 other people who missed it so everyone can complete it 1 time in those 2 weeks.

In the next update you go to the heart of the Island and lay siege on the blazing volcano and the fortress of the Destroyers. You will fight their captains outside the walls and lay siege on several objectives and also get to support/know the main characters in this story arc better. the shore meanwhile has calmed down a bit and the frequency of dynamic events there has tuned down but the next zone is now the new war zone. here also people will also do the opening mission and escort further onto the Island to build camps and lay siege on objectives to get a hold around their fortress. after that the zone will stay available with events for 2 weeks and the opening will be repeatable like last time.

The next update we will venture into their fortress to the heart of the volcano and the opening mission will be about the pact getting through the gates of the fortress and entering the center of the Island where a new 5 man dungeon will be opened(?) and in these 2 weeks everything will stay available.

after this arc has ended the Island will stay available with the new dungeon staying there (but no longer with the objective of destroying the magical object?)

I know it was a long read and my english is bad but i do think these kind of living stories would be interesting and more alive. this might be too hopefull but i think ANet could pull sometheing like this off!

The living story has thus far had a very shallow and uninteresting plot. It’s time to do something meaningful.

Lets continue the personal story, even in the form of living story, the adventure of our characters, preferably more in the way it was done in Prophecies (we are the Chosen).

It’s time to kill another Elder dragon. You can’t expect this game to have an infinite life span. Just dragging on and stretching this pretty pointless living story plot instead of focusing on matters that are actually important is very uninteresting. Is it because you are afraid that you’ll run out of lore material? Because I doubt that’s even possible, no matter how big lore topics were dealt with in the updates. There’s a huge amounts of lose ends in the lore that we want to know more about!

And then the most wanted thing: lets explore more of Tyria (the world)! We want to get to the zones that we were allowed to go to in GW1 but haven’t been able to reach in GW2. There’s a whole world out there and we want to see it, every nook and cranny! Maguuma Jungle, Crystal Desert, Ring of Fire islands, Cantha, Elona, Far Shiverpeaks, Charr Homelands… Just learning more of the current world and getting to compare it with the world of the past is what a lot of us are looking forward to the most.

ColinJohanson.2394:

So a fun question to ask to help direct the conversation a bit: What aspects of your favorite television shows would you think would be cool to see reflected in a game medium?

My favourite TV-series have one thing in common: Each season has both an overarching storyline AND a mini-story/quest/monster of the day for each episode, so that each episode has both its own arc of tension (closed in itself) and contributes to the overarching arc of tension. I’d wish for more of that in the living story updates (yes, I noticed, we’re getting there – but it could still get a little more pronounced).

Also, YES! for achievement-skins available forever over the achievement menu.