Guild Wars 2

Chris, More meaningful and mature content would be much appreciated!

When I look at the concept art for GW2 I get that sense of epicness that the art gives, but unfortunately the game seems to need more of the emotion.

Glad you guys recognize this! This would be a massive improvement of the game!

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Also please also be aware that there is a lot of judgment around Scarlet when the arc has not completed yet. I agree with many of the points being made at a foundational level but please don’t assume that the direction of the arc is understood by all just yet.

Chris

I hate to break this to you, but unless she has some magic pseudo science device that’s going to remove the idiot ball from the character, we (I) don’t care.

It’s not like a book or movie where 90% of the way through suddenly we get to see the antagonists point of view and after the conclusion we get to go back from the very beginning and apply that perspective to the events and appreciate the deeper meaning behind everything.

All those story arcs are over and done with never to come again, unloved and unmissed, regardless of any reason scarlet had to mess around with the dredge/norn, charr, southsun and krait. It no longer matters since we won’t be able to back and re experience these (awful) events.

In short; we (I) didn’t care then, we don’t care now, and we’re not going to care no matter what the tramp does next (unless she’s going to use aforementioned idiot ball removing device)

Next time you introduce an infamous genius sociopath antagonist renown and reviled the world over try and make sure the players have heard of them. On second thought, just don’t.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

rizzo.1079:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Also please also be aware that there is a lot of judgment around Scarlet when the arc has not completed yet. I agree with many of the points being made at a foundational level but please don’t assume that the direction of the arc is understood by all just yet.

Chris

I think the point is that her story so far is less an arc and more of a line.

Yep i think this point is valid.

Chris

Cool…well that’s honestly my biggest personal gripe with the story so if we’re on the same page here I, for one, am happier than I was before:)

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Also please also be aware that there is a lot of judgment around Scarlet when the arc has not completed yet. I agree with many of the points being made at a foundational level but please don’t assume that the direction of the arc is understood by all just yet.

Chris

When a book fails to pull you in within a 100 pages, being generous here, than the writer has failed regardless of how cool the ending might be.

It really doesn’t matter what the direction is when the road to it is lackluster. I think you need to step back and look at what has been released objectively without using further knowledge of what is up ahead. The story thus far has done nothing to further along the world of Tyria. The world is being corrupted by dragons and people are having minor disputes with random alliances or they are partying.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Also please also be aware that there is a lot of judgment around Scarlet when the arc has not completed yet. I agree with many of the points being made at a foundational level but please don’t assume that the direction of the arc is understood by all just yet.

Chris

do you think you can still save the arc from the poor opinions of scarlet? will you continue with scarlet even if the player still hate her? will you ever give us a poll so bobby can stop calling the people who dislike scarlet a small amount?

minbariguy.7504:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

We are committed to quality not quantity.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate if I’d stated that you were prioritizing release dates over quality. I get that you guys have every intention to release quality content. You’re all very passionate and committed to what you do, and you obviously want to create things that people enjoy.

However, allow me to make an observation. I’ve noticed that when you discuss future content or features (other than Living Story), you never commit to a release date. My understanding was that this is because game design can be unpredictable: things change, features may not work exactly as you intended, bugs may pop up, or it may simply take more time to polish a feature for release than you intended. And you don’t want to release content before it is ready, hence…you never commit to a release date.

Except for when it comes to Living Story.

Suddenly, every two weeks, just like clockwork, there it is. Right on schedule. How, then, can it be that your priority is on the quality of the release, when you are committed to releasing it on a specific date no matter what?

If you are saying that you now have the ability to make sure that content is ready by a specific date, then surely you have the ability to commit to dates for all your releases (not just Living Story). But of course, we know that this isn’t the case.

So while you may want quality, it certainly isn’t your priority. It can’t be. Not on a specific release schedule. It’s impossible.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This said there is a lot we can and are doing to meet concerns regarding the cadence and really polish the positives we have already achieved in this area.

I would be really interested to know what you guys are doing to meet my concerns regarding the cadence. Because I honestly have no idea how you can do that while simultaneously stating that the cadence will continue unaltered no matter what any of us says.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

The cadence is something we discuss frequently. We are a very collaborative team and do our best to never sweep anything under the rug (-:

I’m curious as to what these discussions are like. When you are having these discussions, does it ever come up that many people are vigorously opposed to it? Or is it the impression of the team that the current cadence is both popular and desired? If so, do you have any metrics to back this up?

Finally, a simple question:

Why are you unwilling to adjust the release cadence? What is the reason that it must continue, no matter what anyone says? Can you at least help us understand that?

everyone keeps bringing up the release schedule even after you have said it is non negotiable this is the best written post expressing our concerns and questions about it.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

gidorah.4960:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Also please also be aware that there is a lot of judgment around Scarlet when the arc has not completed yet. I agree with many of the points being made at a foundational level but please don’t assume that the direction of the arc is understood by all just yet.

Chris

do you think you can still save the arc from the poor opinions of scarlet? will you continue with scarlet even if the player still hate her? will you ever give us a poll so bobby can stop calling the people who dislike scarlet a small amount?

I think we have learnt a great deal from where we are now with the Scarlet Arc. I won’t talk about future plans for her i am afraid as this goes against the rules i set for this initiative. I appreciate all the feedback in regard to our current story telling foundations and look forward to seeing the game evolve from them.

Chris

fair enough can you give us an in game poll so you can stop calling the people who dislike scarlet a small minority when it seems to be a clear and large majority? Also i’m not sure who’s arms you have to twist but the wvw version of this has had a obvious absence of anet dev’s and the discusion isn’t going as well as it is in here.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

gidorah.4960:

minbariguy.7504:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

We are committed to quality not quantity.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate if I’d stated that you were prioritizing release dates over quality. I get that you guys have every intention to release quality content. You’re all very passionate and committed to what you do, and you obviously want to create things that people enjoy.

However, allow me to make an observation. I’ve noticed that when you discuss future content or features (other than Living Story), you never commit to a release date. My understanding was that this is because game design can be unpredictable: things change, features may not work exactly as you intended, bugs may pop up, or it may simply take more time to polish a feature for release than you intended. And you don’t want to release content before it is ready, hence…you never commit to a release date.

Except for when it comes to Living Story.

Suddenly, every two weeks, just like clockwork, there it is. Right on schedule. How, then, can it be that your priority is on the quality of the release, when you are committed to releasing it on a specific date no matter what?

If you are saying that you now have the ability to make sure that content is ready by a specific date, then surely you have the ability to commit to dates for all your releases (not just Living Story). But of course, we know that this isn’t the case.

So while you may want quality, it certainly isn’t your priority. It can’t be. Not on a specific release schedule. It’s impossible.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

This said there is a lot we can and are doing to meet concerns regarding the cadence and really polish the positives we have already achieved in this area.

I would be really interested to know what you guys are doing to meet my concerns regarding the cadence. Because I honestly have no idea how you can do that while simultaneously stating that the cadence will continue unaltered no matter what any of us says.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

The cadence is something we discuss frequently. We are a very collaborative team and do our best to never sweep anything under the rug (-:

I’m curious as to what these discussions are like. When you are having these discussions, does it ever come up that many people are vigorously opposed to it? Or is it the impression of the team that the current cadence is both popular and desired? If so, do you have any metrics to back this up?

Finally, a simple question:

Why are you unwilling to adjust the release cadence? What is the reason that it must continue, no matter what anyone says? Can you at least help us understand that?

everyone keeps bringing up the release schedule even after you have said it is non negotiable this is the best written post expressing our concerns and questions about it.

At no point did i say it is non negotiable . I said that currently we have no intention of changing the plan, however if we feel that we cannot reach the quality bar we and the player’s expect under the current cadence then we will evolve to ensure we are giving player’s the best possible experience. We have a lot of areas we can improve in to meet this goal and I personally would like to see us continue to work in improving in these areas.

Note: I have specifically laid out these areas in my posts.

Chris

Thank you for clarifying

Chris,

Any opinions on nike’s TIDES dynamic map idea?

I have liked these Living Story events. Well I haven’t able to do some of them. I admit that I am stupid that way. I am handicapped with my fingers, I have severe arthritis, so my fingers are not so flexible as many younger have.

My concern is this, am I still able to continue next arc of living story, if I fail one part of it?

Yes this was selfish concern, but I like so much this living story in this game

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Also please also be aware that there is a lot of judgment around Scarlet when the arc has not completed yet. I agree with many of the points being made at a foundational level but please don’t assume that the direction of the arc is understood by all just yet.

Chris

If it turns out she’s really trying to save us from a giant hallucinogenic mushroom, I’ll be the first to stand up and applaud. Don’t get me wrong, though – I like Scarlet. I just think she’s been woefully miscast.

Agreed, if she could just let some other races have the spotlight without her I’d be pleased.

also chris if you could stop by the wvw thread and maybe post something the players are revolting over how litle the dev interaction is and it is derailing the thread.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Also please also be aware that there is a lot of judgment around Scarlet when the arc has not completed yet. I agree with many of the points being made at a foundational level but please don’t assume that the direction of the arc is understood by all just yet.

Chris

My guild and I don’t particularly care what the story line for Scarlet is, or where it may or may not go. We have our opinions, echoed by many here, which in the end are irrelevant in the face of the issues we have with the directed gameplay itself (LS content).

We’ve always adopted a “wait and see” attitude regarding intentions from developers. Even if the developers deliver them with an implied “just wait, you’ll love it, it will be fun” message. We’ve learned to disregard that, because we understand many developers are so focused inwardly on their own internal consensus of what they think may delight their customers, that they lose sight of what actually does. (Even in the face of official feedback through official channels/testing.) And many are not open to feedback outside of the specific direction they have chosen, or sometimes, are forced to take. Even at the expense of attrition.

Overall, the changes that have occurred from release have left us disappointed, saddened, and have completely eroded all trust we have with the developer, their process, and what appears to be the direction of the game. It’s not that we are not GW2’s target customers. We certainly were at release. It’s that the game shifted into something that is not fun for us. Every patch, every developer post is telling us that. And that this (unexpected) divergence is going to persist.

It pains me to post this. There’s more I could say. And perhaps the wiser course of action would have been to delete this post and just walk away. It does not add to the overall discussion of specifics here.

Just wanted to leave a message saying some of your customers HAVE been withholding judgment, for almost a year.

I think this is how the Collaborative Development should look like. I am sorry if it refers to another game but I think the idea is very good implemented in there

Chris Whiteside.6102:

rizzo.1079:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Also please also be aware that there is a lot of judgment around Scarlet when the arc has not completed yet. I agree with many of the points being made at a foundational level but please don’t assume that the direction of the arc is understood by all just yet.

Chris

I think the point is that her story so far is less an arc and more of a line.

Yep i think this point is valid.

Chris

I wanted to answer Bobby here (and thank him for his detailed answer before. i didn`t expect that. Thumbs up here)

However i have to chime in here.
I don`t get the “line” reference here, so i would like a bit of feedback here on how you see where you stand with Scarlet.

We as players get only fragmented information about everything, which we have to puzzle together from different sources, to get a more or less full picture about what is going on. This brings a lot of problems with it, since this (maybe unintentionel or deliberate) withold information has different effects on how we percive it. Things that might be planned out and meaningfull might sound like a retcon if it is delivered in the wrong way.

To paint a picture:

If we follow the in-game information:
- Someone brought the molten Alliance together
- Scarlet ordered the Aetherblades
- Mysterious person attacked the Queens jubilee
- Scarelet attacks the Queen, talks crazy and is a terrorst and appearently beeing teached by more or less every race (as stated in game) and is now attacking “globaly” with her combined forces
- Scarlet is taking us as a joke, is protected by a forcefield and likes to play…

From the game perspective,… she is an uber-character, combining too many traits in her to be “relateble”

Out of game we have:

Patch announcements:
- here only the clockwork chaos where she painted the patch site

The “comunity message”
- Declaring an attack on Krytas lands as well as the queen (this gave us a specified area)

Blogposts
- she saw the eternal alchemy, has been a labrat equivalent and went coo coo

Interviews:
- she only believes to have seen the eternal alchemy, she only halway graduated, etc…

(i might have missed something)

The thing is, the order in which we get these information.
It is usually: Patch announcement/Community Preview —> Ingame —>Blogpost —> Interview.

Patch/Community is presented to the ones who follow the game on community sites. Ingame is presented to all players. Blogpost on the mainsite here (and if featured in the community) and Interviews have to be searched for, since they are usually are not announced.

If we now look at her developement we can see a problem. Scarlet rose from a strategist, to a “perfect at everything”, only to be cutdown by information, which can be described as “untrustworthy” even if it is from the creator itself.
The reason is simple: “You said so at first, you put it in game and now it is suddenly not the case? Then why did you write it like that?” (btw. this applies to text, that didn`t involve VAs, just “simple” writing.)
It brings up everyones tinhats, looking for a plot, getting freaked out and beeing disapointed.

(i don`t like bringing up Scarlet, but yeah, i have to admit. She was a letdown for me. This will be the last one on that topic, next is back to events and stuff)

Alright, I’ll try and give my 2 cents here.

First, what I enjoy in the living story as it is currently :

• Each update can include new features like QoL improvements, skill balance, itemization options etc… This is what actually makes me eager to read all update preview to discover what new things I might enjoy.

• The possibility to achieve daily LW achievements instead of overgrindy ones to complete the meta-achievement (even though one might think the latter has no need to be here).

• The characters involved in general, I appreciate most of them (including Scarlett for that matter).

• The artistic outcome is always really solid, graphics and sound effects, good job on that !

Now let’s talk about what I usually do not enjoy :

• The story/grind ratio is not in a good spot at all to me. Tower of nightmares is actually a good example of that : we basically have a 10-15min solo mission, some NPC talks and the new aspect of the map to tell the story. In the meantime we need to do a lot of events (btw, one of the least rewarding activity in the game) to get our achievements done and we need to collect a huge amount of spores to unlock the new recipees. So it’s something like 1-2h for story (when taking your time) and at least ten times that for the grind part which is actually leading to my second point.

• Another huge concern for the me is the reward system. Most of the times I don’t feel rewarded at all. Once more, let’s take a look at ToN : completing everything I have to complete will roughly get me a daily skill point. That is actually convenient and, for once, interesting but remember that most of the time we expect to see another miniature or tonic. On the other hand, there is useful stuff to get but they are not proposed as a reward but at a cost : in this update I have 6 new recipees to unlock. If I count the current toxic spore cost, those unlock will cost me around 40g. So in the end what I actually feel and what I in fact fear with each update is that it will cost me more than it will give me. I’ll avoid side notes on miniatures and tonics or on the pressure put on gold compared to other resources but I’ll just say that Liadri was the only well brought miniature in my eyes and that karma has it way too easy, I could still elaborate if you want me to.

• Next point is about availability and difficulty to get as well as communication regarding this aspect. ToN will once more be my example but Blood and Madness would certainly be a very good one too. So I have those 6 recipees to unlock and right now I don’t feel like playing the game much(some exams to prepare, other games to try, some dreariness about dungeons and fractal I’ve overdone) so right now those recipees are actually a pain for me. The thing is those are part of potential builds, refusing to get them is actually limiting my build potency so I certainly do not want to do that and become dependent on the market. So I need to get some dungeons done at some point to buy them but I don’t even know how much time I have to do that : will Marjory stay there 2 weeks ? 4 weeks ? Will we ever have another way later to get those recipees ? We never have a consistent answer regarding this and I feel this kind of information is critical. To be accurate I feel like we should never have to worry about aquiring this kind of item.

• Another concern is about the theme of the updates. ToN for once is doing pretty good. Let’s just say I saw way too much machinery and really not enough Guild Wars. I’d love to see stuff about cleansing Orr or Ascalon, about the Underworld, about Tengus, about the Mists, … When I saw the fusion alliance, the clockwork invasions or the etherblade path in TA I didn’t feel like I was playing Guild Wars. Too much machinery, not enough blades, magic and core lore.

If I can give you an advice, reward the players with exclusive time-limited items for taking part and getting through the whole story and keep any grinding goal for unnecessary stuff like achievement points or extra (subsequent) resource gain. This way players wouldn’t have to feel stressed about deadlines and wouldn’t feel to have to pay for their rewards.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Also please also be aware that there is a lot of judgment around Scarlet when the arc has not completed yet. I agree with many of the points being made at a foundational level but please don’t assume that the direction of the arc is understood by all just yet.

You have to give up on that as a justification/defense.

It doesn’t matter if the ending is amazing if half your audience has tossed the book in the trash by the second chapter. Half being generous if the posted reaction to Scarlet is in any way representative. It’s like watching an M. Night Shayamalan flick – there is so much focus on ‘the twist’ that the fundamentals of storytelling get abandoned. You get a terrible movie in the first two reels and the third reel cannot reverse that no matter how clever.

We can already see the text portions of the dialogue in ToN – things you can change on a short lead time – trying to adapt to feedback. Believe me, I noticed. And I’m sure you’ll continue to struggle to salvage the credibility and improve impact of the Living Story as you work through those parts that are too far along to change course entirely. It is a learning experience. But sometimes the solidarity you are showing to past efforts makes it hard for us to be certain you’re getting the message. I will try to withhold judgment on the remainder of the arc – to come at it with fresh eyes. But please understand damage was done by what has gone before.

On the Epicness of the Living Story:

I think I was less than clear on how the ‘pursuit of Epic’ is derailing things in the Living Story:

Scarlet is never allowed to JUST BE COOL. Every time an NPC in setting opens their mouth about her, its to tell us she’s THE COOLEST EV-AR. Horribly horrible things have been done to try and build her credibility by brute force instead of organic progression.

I hate to say it, but for me it all comes down to one in-game piece of dialogue. “She graduated from all Three of the Asuran Colleges…” ((screeetch- car crash noise!)) Say WHAT??!? In that one moment the entire arc DIED for me. The ego-projection was strong in this one. Because if you’ve played the game – doubly so if you played an Asura – this is preposterous. And no amount of backpedaling or hand-waving in web-site fiction changes that. As offended as I am by it, I’m even more offended that apparently nobody in the writing bullpen raised their hand and asked the question “Isn’t that… isn’t that a little dumb?” Somebody’s enthusiasm for the new super-hero, this Dark Trahearne you got to building rode right over all common sense in the pursuit of EPIC-EPIc-EPic-Epic-epic ((echo effects)).

And what’s so sad, is if it had just been “She graduated from two of the Asuran colleges!” I think my eyebrow would have gone up, but I’d also be saying to myself, “…Ok, I guess she is supposed to be an incredible Engineer. Lets see where they go with this…”

Sometimes the line between awesome and absurd is just that narrow.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I think we have learnt a great deal from where we are now with the Scarlet Arc. I won’t talk about future plans for her i am afraid as this goes against the rules i set for this initiative. I appreciate all the feedback in regard to our current story telling foundations and look forward to seeing the game evolve from them.

I hadn’t gotten to this post when I wrote the above, so I’m folding it in here now.

As understated as this reply is, I choose to believe it is acknowledgement the message was received. While I can’t wait for Scarlet to exit stage left forever, I’ll try to look forward to what comes after with renewed enthusiasm.

I think i would like to add something about permanent content. I think players where expecting things like tequatl and aetherblade revamp or new areas, skills, weapons, races and dungeons not the scarlet invasions which don’t feel right as permanent content and no one knows why they are continuing or really does them very often anymore.

If gw2 isn’t going to get any expansions, can we get guild wars 1 utopia?

Chris Whiteside.6102:

So with all of this in mind it would be cool to carry on discussing around this area in much the same form as Nike has. Specifically brainstorming on top of the foundation of known systems and functionality. I do also want to point out that someone mentioned (sorry i forget who) the ability to potentially build forts etc and then gain new events, goals and rewards from them by protecting and nurturing your land. Wouldn’t that be awesome!?

Chris

It would be awesome. It also sounds very similar to one of the examples in the Everquest Next presentation. This is not meant to be negative. When I was watching the video I thought “it would be nice to have something like this in GW2”.

That being said there are some obvious concerns. The obvious example of problems is the current state of Orr where the majority of places feels like it has been abandoned.

To make something like building a fort and spawning events to work there needs to be some permanence. The fort shouldn’t be built in a minute and nor should it be destroyed in the blink of an eye. That sort of thing provides me as the player with a feedback that says “your actions are irrelevant”. The state of the fort building process should also persist through server restarts otherwise it would be immersion breaking and brings you back to the previous problem.

If it is to be a living world then the impact of my actions should not reset if I look away for 2 seconds.

BobbyStein.2315:

You have to understand that developers are not at liberty to discuss specifics regarding upcoming releases until we’re absolutely certain that they will make it into a build. Also, we have to be careful not to get in the way of Community or Marketing initiatives. It’s a delicate balance.

That’s understood, I think. Not to mention you’ve got customers with a wide range of interests and concerns. Trying to strike a balance for that has got to be nerve wracking.

Scarlet probably would not irritate as many people as she does if she had more of a unique personality. Right now she just seems to be this generic psycho, with no other purpose apart from causing mayhem. Compare that to Marjory, who calls everyone who crosses her path “Sugar” and makes references to Norn farts.

Now, you say you’ve got an epic conclusion in mind for Scarlet’s storyline. I’m going to trust you on that, and hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Also please also be aware that there is a lot of judgment around Scarlet when the arc has not completed yet. I agree with many of the points being made at a foundational level but please don’t assume that the direction of the arc is understood by all just yet.

Chris

Sounds like a quality issue due to poor presentation and lack of story progression. The fact that it’s been a few months already means you probably won’t change the majority of the player’s perception on her anymore, unless you magically add a lot more story content to the game…which is too late now due to the 4 months production lag.

Tanith.5264:

BobbyStein.2315:

You have to understand that developers are not at liberty to discuss specifics regarding upcoming releases until we’re absolutely certain that they will make it into a build. Also, we have to be careful not to get in the way of Community or Marketing initiatives. It’s a delicate balance.

That’s understood, I think. Not to mention you’ve got customers with a wide range of interests and concerns. Trying to strike a balance for that has got to be nerve wracking.

Scarlet probably would not irritate as many people as she does if she had more of a unique personality. Right now she just seems to be this generic psycho, with no other purpose apart from causing mayhem. Compare that to Marjory, who calls everyone who crosses her path “Sugar” and makes references to Norn farts.

Now, you say you’ve got an epic conclusion in mind for Scarlet’s storyline. I’m going to trust you on that, and hope to be pleasantly surprised.

I agree that you can’t please everyone but at the same time as someone who doesnt like jump puzzles i can see the effort put into and the quality that came out of stuff like the aetherblade puzle and the whole zephyr area. this effort and quality are also easy to see lacking in the cannach’s lair and bloody prince “dungeons”.

Ronah.2869:

I think this is how the Collaborative Development should look like. I am sorry if it refers to another game but I think the idea is very good implemented in there

A system for upvoting features we care about would be amazing, but that puts ArenaNet in a very difficult spot as far as feature and release planning.

I could see it being interesting as a way to choose between different story arcs, but technically we got the in-game version of that with Kiel/Gnashblade.

Tanith.5264:

Compare that to Marjory, who calls everyone who crosses her path “Sugar” and makes references to Norn farts.

As an aside to the more serious ongoing discussion, why do no NPCs ever mention sylvari farts? I imagine they would sound like flutes, or panpipes, or various other woodwind instruments. Perhaps even saxophones.

timmyf.1490:

A system for upvoting features we care about would be amazing, but that puts ArenaNet in a very difficult spot as far as feature and release planning.

I could see it being interesting as a way to choose between different story arcs, but technically we got the in-game version of that with Kiel/Gnashblade.

if this thread is any indication i think anet is more than up for the challenge. the living story and pvp threads on collaboration are going great.

rizzo.1079:

I think the point is that her story so far is less an arc and more of a line.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Yep i think this point is valid.

Normally I’m all for opaque geometry analogies (no, really!) but, um…?

What are you two trying to say?

Also…

Chris Whiteside.6102:

…but please don’t assume that the direction of the arc is understood by all just yet.

‘Understood by all’? Is it understood by anyone not inside the ANet offices? Outside of the foreshadowing imposed by the graphic for the next release (I lean towards that being one of her minions standing behind her, not a ‘mysterious master’ reveal), and the assumption that after handing over all those spores to Marjory I’m be able to go into the tower in a few weeks, I have Zero Clue what Scarlet Briar’s endgame looks like. Or how many more mix-and-match alliances she’s entitled to before moving to some sort of resolution. I mean, if we finally get the centaurs/oozes team-up I’ve been dreaming of, great . Otherwise, lets get to the final act, shall we?

Was there some big long-term hints in the Aether Path? Because I had real life those weeks and missed that block…

Tachenon.5270:

As an aside to the more serious ongoing discussion, why do no NPCs ever mention sylvari farts? I imagine they would sound like flutes, or panpipes, or various other woodwind instruments. Perhaps even saxophones.

You forget that they smell like rose petals and give +10% gold find for 6 minutes.

Isn’t it great being the writers’ Pet Faction?

Nike.2631:

Was there some big long-term hints in the Aether Path? Because I had real life those weeks and missed that block…

you missed nothing that will help make sense of scarlet or the story by missing the aetherpath

What would be a Living World event.

It would be an event that changes the world, however to be actually living it has to be “alive” which means it reacts to certain impulses in a different way and it has to be able to adapt to different behavior.

Right now we have the “static” DEs in the world. These events are only at one place and repeat at a certain amount of time.
Failing them only rarely has any negative effect on the area or even the world.

Then we have the LS which is a one-time event which changes the world for little bit (at the moment) for a specified amount of time.
The influence here at the moment is rather small. The biggest change up to date is a new dungeon path, a new jumpingpuzzle (which might not even count, since we got them before without a story, so they are just expansions of the wolrd patched in) and… well yeah.. that it is. maybe new tequatle, but he stays in his little space, doing nothing.

So what do we need?
Events that spread, events that start at one point and influence the area around it.

This doesnt have to be hostile. We have some suggestions allready in that direction. The tequatle plan, a dynamic world idea, etc… heck even i chimed in there.

How about events where you help merchants bring their goods throught the lands?
- As you help them get from settlement to settlement, have them open shops at certain locations, you unlock new items to buy and establish “traderoutes” between cities and production-zones.
- We allready see merchants in the world, but we don`t benefit from them.
- However in a war, traderoutes are a neccity. You need to keep the money and items moving for a good economy and to get the tools and knowledge around.

For example: bring a Chaar engineer from the black citadel to the ebonhawk (you know, the city southeast on the map), to have him deliver special goods (he won`t use the Asura gate, because he doesn`t trust them).
- on the way you have to fend off bandits and rebels who are against the peace-talks
- You help him develope a new weapon, as he gets an inspiration along the way. (gathering material for example).
- You get some backstory on the Charr as you reach certain landmarks, like the searing crystals.

In the end, as you help him through all these endevours, you get access to his new weapons (skins and stats/rarity), armorpieces (same as weapons), a special buff item or mini of him with his invention (i imagine a steampunk robotball with spiderlegs, which he invented to show the asura that even he can create something like golems).

As he arrives at his destination, the city will change. Soldiers get equiped with his weapons and beginn fortyfying the city more. Rebells get pushed back (and Quests in the area get adjusted to comepensate. mostly heart quests) a bit more and you might even be able to hunt them out of the area, into unknown teritory.

Problems for this kind of event:
- Overflow. if the next area is in overflow, you might not be able to follow the one you protect.
- Static quests have to be able to be shutdown. This includes DEs as well as Heart-Quests. Which means they have to be suplemented or adjusted to compensate.

Pros:
- A “simple” but overarching eventchain, which makes you care about the one you are traveling with.
- it changes the world in a simple but effective manner, since the little journey you undergo, starts new events along the way, to the point where even a faction might be pushed out of a region for some time.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

bradderzh.2378:

Chris,

Any opinions on nike’s TIDES dynamic map idea?

Hi,

I do have opinions (-: however i have lost some time today that i thought i had. Basically i want to feedback on the DE discussion and get more time to read what people liked and didn’t like about the events they have played. With this is mind it would be awesome for these discussions to continue if folks still have anymore insights or discussion points?

And as soon as i get some more time i will get into the discussion again.

Chris

can you do something as big and dynamic as the balthazar event chain over multiple maps temporarily for the living story. does the cadence allow the proper testing to prevent bugs that would be needed because it sounds like thats what people want temple of balthazar like chain but over multiple maps that doesnt reset as often or at all and progresses a story.

also since you are here responding please please please go post in the wvw thread and save it the wvw dev’s are not responding and the thread doesnt resemble the pvp or this living story one at all.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi,

I do have opinions (-: however i have lost some time today that i thought i had. Basically i want to feedback on the DE discussion and get more time to read what people liked and didn’t like about the events they have played. With this is mind it would be awesome for these discussions to continue if folks still have anymore insights or discussion points?

And as soon as i get some more time i will get into the discussion again.

Chris

Which events are you talking about? Just to clarify, so we can answer more properly:
LS events or DEs?

There is quite a difference here, since the DEs are the ones we have always access to, while the LS ones are only temporary (for the most part) and have a different influence on how we relate to them.

As many are “grindy”, they need many people, however if the masses aren`t there, you might realize that they aren`t fun.

That said. I prefer events that have a meaning, a story, a reason for me helping in the area. Better is if i not only get my little “bling, here is your money and karma” but actually see something happening afterwards.
It doesn`t have to be a new quest, but the person i helped actually doing something at the place i left him. Doing a little jiggle, starting to talk with someone to give some more information.
Maybe talk about the “adventure” he had, as i protected him from something.

there are events like this in game. Some don`t even give you credit, however you are able to experience them. Best example is the ghost Dolyak. I love this little bit.

Events are nice, loot is nice, however i also enjoy the little nuances sourounding the perpetual slaughter our heroes are commiting to get their shiny.

LS events feel cheap now, because they are mostly old events with “new mechanics” tossed in.
They started great though. One of my favourite is still the scavenger hunt for Mad King Thorns Book, or the (sadly buggy) one for the perpetrator with the first soutsun event….

However i just noticed… These “events” and our archievments right now are something very familiar…
These are traditional quests. We have a start, we get our “mission” in the archievment panel or from our flavor-story-character of the patch and then we do and like it.

And i don`t mind. So yeah, what do you mean by events?

gidorah.4960:

can you do something as big and dynamic as the balthazar event chain over multiple maps temporarily for the living story. does the cadence allow the proper testing to prevent bugs that would be needed because it sounds like thats what people want temple of balthazar like chain but over multiple maps that doesnt reset as often or at all and progresses a story.

This is something I’m curious about as well. It seems that all DEs, even some chained ones, are all in small bubbles of influence that don’t interact outside of the Map they are on. Shadow Behemoth in Queensdale doesn’t affect Gendarran which doesn’t affect the Hinterlands.

Now I could be wrong, but what if we had a couple of cross map arcs in the DE system that did such a thing?

Queensdale Centaurs are getting their forces wrecked, so the Harathi Hinterlands centaurs get word of such a failing on their front and decide to reinforce it.
That would allow players in the Hinterlands some missions they could do to stop the reinforcements from making a push to Queensdale.

If the players push hard enough to take out the Overlord then Centaur activity throughout Gendarran, Queensdale, and Hinterlands drops thus allowing Bandits or whoever else is on the map a chance to take some land for themselves.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

That the story line around Scarlet has been flat, specifically no clear angle toward goal or resolution.

Ah! Thank you. I get it now.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

And in regard to your second question as it relates to my above point. It is safe to say that goals and trajectory toward resolution are not clear yet outside of Arena. There are clues however.

I miss clues sometimes, so maybe there will be a point when we’re looking back over the first… ‘volume’ lets call it, of the Living Story and all these little tidbits will fall into place. I’ve seen it done well in Doctor Who, but I’ve gotta warn ya, in my experience its a hard structure to pull off entertainingly.

One thing for sleuths better than me to ponder: In the Scarlet invasions, the portals shared graphics with the Steam-monsters portals. There is a Portal in Kessex Hills right now delivering Toxic Forces into an area SE of the Tower of Nightmares. It has a very different graphic, showing somewhere… new. You might want to hang around there and take a look. I’ll try to grab a screenie latter.

[sidebar]
If the Devs are still podering ‘rewards for participation in Collaborative Discussion’, I admit I’d take a laurel and about 2,000 luck credited to my account – I’ve spent a LOT of time typing when I could have been logged in with the spore-zergs .
[/end sidebar]

I should hit up my Home instance and see if Shodd’s been giving up Infinity Ball tech to Scarlet…

Jaken.6801:

They started great though. One of my favourite is still the scavenger hunt for Mad King Thorns Book, or the (sadly buggy) one for the perpetrator with the first soutsun event….

Oh forgot about that.
The chain for Mad Memories was great.
The bugs for the one involving Canach just completely ruined the whole thing. Also not directly caused by a bug but maybe as a side effect of the bug you ended up with a bajillion people camping Noll and the whole thing just ended up feeling extremely cheap.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Nike,

I really don’t understand why you think i am defending or justifying anything. I am discussing and listening to the feedback and folding that into actions as necessary.

I’m sorry. Truthfully, I don’t want to dwell on Scarlet. I have much, much more fun when we’re talking about Dynamic Events. (Something you may want to consider calving off into a new Collaborative discussion thread to ease the reading burden of everyone – I don’t think we’ve established a rule yet that there can’t be two open and running at once . Among other things it would allow you to bring the two topics to closure separately.))

Because scarlet is largely dead to me, I’m on to the post mortem in my thinking. When I say things to the effect of ‘a great ending cannot be used to defend/justify a weak start’ I’m already looking forward to the next volume. NEXT TIME, I hope we see the lessons learned here applied from the outset. Then we can find all-new plot potholes to trip over .

My point is very simple, which is that i agree with much of the foundational feedback regarding the dynamic of story within the living world, but that there is a lot of info, plans, and goals that the discussion group is currently unaware of. Thus my point is it is better not to turn assumptions into hard facts and this will lead to less valuable discussion. My point isn’t about the performance of what happens as this arc plays out, it is about what we are learning based on the facts in hand. And of course we are listening.

I imagine that last section seems to you like a near-echo of things you’ve said before, but for me, just now, I get it. Finally. I think I missed the intent to shape discussion as we move forward. While I’ll try to rein in my urge to froth at the mouth when a certain ginger-topped anti-heroine comes up, we are a bit of a handicap talking about the future of the Living Story in any concrete fashion: we don’t know the future, and you can’t talk about it.

Analyzing highs and lows to date I get. I’m just not sure how to offer anything forward-facing other than “I hope to get back to wrecking face on the Elder Dragons.” Or “I hope that the scale of the Living Stories is ratcheted back, while the intimacy and the commitment I feel towards it improves.”

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I hope you can appreciate this as i appreciate your dialogue and understand that when it looks like a point has hit home, it probably has.

Chris

((puts down sledgehammer))

Oh good. Because it’s exhausting belaboring the point sometimes .

I’m sure you know from my fondness for ‘Second Chances’ as a narrative tool, I’m a big fan of the heroism embodied by persistence…

Your efforts here have been heroic. Thank you.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi Nike,

I really don’t understand why you think i am defending or justifying anything. I am discussing and listening to the feedback and folding that into actions as necessary. My point is very simple, which is that i agree with much of the foundational feedback regarding the dynamic of story within the living world, but that there is a lot of info, plans, and goals that the discussion group is currently unaware of.

Chris

How can we discuss things that we are no aware of ? It’s like we are discussing some things that may, or may not be planned for future.

It would be better if you guys just say: “We plan to do X feature. Do you like, how are we going to do it ? What can we add ? What can we change ?”. After gathering feedback, post again and “We changed X, Y, Z how about now ?”. Etc.

It now seems like player base is discussing game on their own.
And What I mean while it’s cool you are posting, there is no real feeling of involment. I must say again. Look how Sony is doing roundtable for EQN. Much more open, they say what they plan, they ask how community look at those plans, if community and developers completly disagree, they just say they are not going to change feature Y, and explain why.

So my entire point is, we need dedicated person that will engage in disccusion with us (;.

Edit:
This thread should be closed. If we have to discuss Dynamic Events, it should be done in seprated thread. All more detailed topics should have their own threads.

Nike, I’m curious as to whether we’ve had the same experience: after a few months into the game, I was BORED with dragons. I had no interest in fighting more dragons. I had no interest in fighting the one dragon we had. “Victory or Death” stuck around in the top-right corner of my screen for months.

But now that we’ve had nearly a year of Living Story releases, I feel like it’s time to get back to the dragons. ESPECIALLY if it means getting to push further in the map to get to them.

Did you have a similar experience? Anybody else? Or am I the only one who once said, “Please, no more dragons” and is now wishing we’d return to them?