Guild Wars 2

Chris – is it possible to get a separate thread for the DE discussion? Largely because it doesn’t directly pertain to the Living Story and there is a small fear some of the LW feedback has got lost amongst the DE discussion (I understnad they can connect, but they are 2 big topics and if you guys are as busy as you appear, it would be easier to sift through as well I’d imagine)

There’s a weight of great discussion going on here, but the title isn’t advertising it is about DE’s. You could feasibly get more people involved in a separate thread (and it doesn’t need a cut off date either since people can opt in/out at will)

Now this is dialogue. ((Golf clap)) Props thus far.

As this has been going forward, I’ve seen the collaboration portion of the discussion progress, and it’s encouraging to see. I haven’t the design mind of guys like Nike, but from a storytelling perspective I see a lot of potential in the suggestions he’s offered.

That being said, I think I’m going to put my own sledgehammer of “tell a good story, dangit” down. It’s becoming evident to me that what’s going to move the LS forward is actually not the storytelling itself, but the attempt at creating real-world-like events.

That’s not to say that having the components of a good story underlying the LS isn’t crucial. It is. It very much is. But my clamoring for a good story, I think, is the result of getting the impression that there isn’t a good story underlying the LS development.

It’s hard—this imaging a world history and then taking players through the creation of that history. And, I imagine, it is also why video-game adaptations of books tend to be done poorly, unless you have a titanic body of lore from which to draw (a la Lord of the Rings).

Just my two cents at this point in the discussion.

Randulf.7614:

Chris – is it possible to get a separate thread for the DE discussion? Largely because it doesn’t directly pertain to the Living Story and there is a small fear some of the LW feedback has got lost amongst the DE discussion (I understnad they can connect, but they are 2 big topics and if you guys are as busy as you appear, it would be easier to sift through as well I’d imagine)

There’s a weight of great discussion going on here, but the title isn’t advertising it is about DE’s. You could feasibly get more people involved in a separate thread (and it doesn’t need a cut off date either since people can opt in/out at will)

I think de’s are an important part of the living story and belong in this thread.
I would also like to emphasive the wvw version of this thread still needs to be saved it has been discussing the absence of the dev’s for about 5 pages.

Honestly the whole Scarlet thing is like Scooby doo movie…

Randulf.7614:

Chris – is it possible to get a separate thread for the DE discussion? Largely because it doesn’t directly pertain to the Living Story and there is a small fear some of the LW feedback has got lost amongst the DE discussion (I understnad they can connect, but they are 2 big topics and if you guys are as busy as you appear, it would be easier to sift through as well I’d imagine)

There’s a weight of great discussion going on here, but the title isn’t advertising it is about DE’s. You could feasibly get more people involved in a separate thread (and it doesn’t need a cut off date either since people can opt in/out at will)

Sadly, I think we’ve got this backwards. The DEs are the dev’s original idea on a “living” world which is why Chris is focused on this idea.
The story is the thing that’s tacked on (or feels tacked on/“flavored text”) to these events to try to make them meaningful.

Stormcrow.7513:

Honestly the whole Scarlet thing is like Scooby doo movie…

Ru-ru-ru-ruff-arooo!!!?

One of the things that I’d love with living story is to know what others LS characters do while not involved in the main story of the release: the Ottilia/Braham conversation during Bazaar of the Four Winds and Dragon Bash was a little example of what i mean.

What was Marjory doing between Dragon Bash and Blood and Madness?
Is Lord Faren fine after the struggle with Scarlet?
What’s about Evon, Ellen and Magnus?
Any new from the Zephirithes? Is the trade agreement fine?

Should be nice to meet them ingame between releases and see some little evolutions just like we did with Braham and Ottilia.

Oh, I REALLY LOVE the random appearence of surpriseBraham, Rox and Frostbite during some random Toxic Offshoots related events in Kessex Hills as NPC. This one was a REALLY nice addition.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Randulf.7614:

Chris – is it possible to get a separate thread for the DE discussion? Largely because it doesn’t directly pertain to the Living Story and there is a small fear some of the LW feedback has got lost amongst the DE discussion (I understnad they can connect, but they are 2 big topics and if you guys are as busy as you appear, it would be easier to sift through as well I’d imagine)

There’s a weight of great discussion going on here, but the title isn’t advertising it is about DE’s. You could feasibly get more people involved in a separate thread (and it doesn’t need a cut off date either since people can opt in/out at will)

Hi Randulf,

I agree that we should and will have a separate discussion thread for DE’s foundational design, evolution and quality. What i am interested in here however is how DE’s can relate to story telling and game play synergy and the overall evolution of Living World. Therefore within these bounds i think it is a great topic for this thread.

Hope this makes sense?

Chris

Chris, please see one of my earlier posts on this. I think it directly relates to what you are looking for here…Global Dominance system.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

What i am interested in here however is how DE’s can relate to story telling and game play synergy and the overall evolution of Living World. Therefore within these bounds i think it is a great topic for this thread.

The funny part is that I think you guys already got it right: by changing events over time, cycling new ones in and old ones out, by introducing new stories in the open world over time, the world should feel changing and alive to players.

The problem, in my view, is that you gave up on that strategy within a few months after launch.

I’d love to see you try it, in a small way, by cycling DEs in a zone or two per patch to get more feedback. (And please specify which zones in the patch notes.)

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Randulf.7614:

Chris – is it possible to get a separate thread for the DE discussion? Largely because it doesn’t directly pertain to the Living Story and there is a small fear some of the LW feedback has got lost amongst the DE discussion (I understnad they can connect, but they are 2 big topics and if you guys are as busy as you appear, it would be easier to sift through as well I’d imagine)

There’s a weight of great discussion going on here, but the title isn’t advertising it is about DE’s. You could feasibly get more people involved in a separate thread (and it doesn’t need a cut off date either since people can opt in/out at will)

Hi Randulf,

I agree that we should and will have a separate discussion thread for DE’s foundational design, evolution and quality. What i am interested in here however is how DE’s can relate to story telling and game play synergy and the overall evolution of Living World. Therefore within these bounds i think it is a great topic for this thread.

Hope this makes sense?

Chris

Oh I don’t disagree at all and understand totally how they synergise with the story element. I’m just worried other LW topics may get buried since the emphasis seems now exclusively on DE development. If all topics are being covered evenly, then I’ll go back to reading what is so far one of the few interesting threads on these forums!

:)

Randulf.7614:

Oh I don’t disagree at all and understand totally how they synergise with the story element. I’m just worried other LW topics may get buried since the emphasis seems now exclusively on DE development. If all topics are being covered evenly, then I’ll go back to reading what is so far one of the few interesting threads on these forums!

:)

I think we have all expressed how little we like scarlet and our worries over the cadence enough. Nothing wrong with talking about how de’s tie into ls for a few pages.

Tiborb.1453:

One of the things that I’d love with living story is to know what others LS characters do while not involved in the main story of the release: the Ottilia/Braham conversation during Bazaar of the Four Winds and Dragon Bash was a little example of what i mean.

What was Marjory doing between Dragon Bash and Blood and Madness?
Is Lord Faren fine after the struggle with Scarlet?
What’s about Evon, Ellen and Magnus?
Any new from the Zephirithes? Is the trade agreement fine?

Should be nice to meet them ingame between releases and see some little evolutions just like we did with Braham and Ottilia.

Oh, I REALLY LOVE the random appearence of surpriseBraham, Rox and Frostbite during some random Toxic Offshoots related events in Kessex Hills as NPC. This one was a REALLY nice addition.

Yep, that was something i was thinking about, however i didn`t like Braham and Rox`s involvement right now and at Tequatle as nothing more as a nice but unexplained cameo.
It is missing some context if it isn`t explained in some way. (flavour text. here to say, Rox`s at Tequatle was merly fanservice in my opinion)

I liked the Bard making a appearence in Lions Arch right now. That was quite amusing.

However what is needed is synergy. We need to find these characters somwhere in the game doing stuff and not have them pop up when they are needed.

As this is a living world and one event is happening right after the other, cascading on each other, these characters are not allowed to vanish, but have all to go with the flow.

They are allowed to get “off time” when the story follows other charcters, but you have to be able to find them and see how they develope in between.

Have them appear at festivals and have them have some fun. Have them go back to their homes.

hey, here is an idea:
- As we narrow down the “main characters” of the LS, we can do a search for them in the world, basicly like yakington in GW1 (without the loot for now, but with charcter or story developement)
- For example: Majory says she wants to conduct some research after one LS episode and next Patch we can find her back in DR, near her home pondering about something.

This can even go into some new DE. We might find these “prominent” charcters in the field, off to a hunt or a mission. Maybe finding Rox`s and Braham close to the Shatterer, allowing for a special encounter.
or have them spawn some special enemies in the field, while delivering some of their silly banter.

We could find Kiel beeing swamped with more and more bureucratic stuff and might have to find her in the LA, as she has run away from the work and down a little pirate hole, where we can get her for a round of belchers buff…

Every LS leaves a hole. However i think this would be a way to cover and use it for extension.

Here’s an idea that I hope doesn’t get buried:

change the background in the character selection screen to reflect the current living story

In the entire process of booting up the game and logging in, This is the most visual and impactful thing you guys can change (I think) that clearly signals something is new in the game. It fills up the entire screen, and hypes the player for the new content. You’ll definitely notice, if last time you logged in there were floating ships, colorful banners, and a bright blue sky representing the bazaar of the four winds, but when you logged in this week, everything was a deep red and you see Divinity’s Reach in flames in the background (Maybe, clockwork chaos). I’ll be honest, I don’t read the text on the patching window.

This is might be a bit of a far-fetched idea, but what if we included PvP within a DE.

For example, a powerful artifact was unearthed in the middle of Gendarren Fields, and all three orders of Tyria want their hands on it. As a result, GF turns into a warzone between players belonging to each order, with objectives for each order and towns/villages turning into capture points for each order WvW style.

Depending on who ultimately fulfills their objectives and ends up getting their hands on the relic, different DEs can stem from it.

Xae Isareth.1364:

This is might be a bit of a far-fetched idea, but what if we included PvP within a DE.

For example, a powerful artifact was unearthed in the middle of Gendarren Fields, and all three orders of Tyria want their hands on it. As a result, GF turns into a warzone between players belonging to each order, with objectives for each order and towns/villages turning into capture points for each order WvW style.

Depending on who ultimately fulfills their objectives and ends up getting their hands on the relic, different DEs can stem from it.

“Keep PvE out of PvP, and PvP out of PvE.”

Seriously though. Doing something like that could cause more outcry than not doing that. Some people just hate PvP and the forums would be full of post asking ANet why and to remove it.

The PvPers might not care. Many of them don’t PvE anyway.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

cesmode.4257:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Randulf.7614:

Chris – is it possible to get a separate thread for the DE discussion? Largely because it doesn’t directly pertain to the Living Story and there is a small fear some of the LW feedback has got lost amongst the DE discussion (I understnad they can connect, but they are 2 big topics and if you guys are as busy as you appear, it would be easier to sift through as well I’d imagine)

There’s a weight of great discussion going on here, but the title isn’t advertising it is about DE’s. You could feasibly get more people involved in a separate thread (and it doesn’t need a cut off date either since people can opt in/out at will)

Hi Randulf,

I agree that we should and will have a separate discussion thread for DE’s foundational design, evolution and quality. What i am interested in here however is how DE’s can relate to story telling and game play synergy and the overall evolution of Living World. Therefore within these bounds i think it is a great topic for this thread.

Hope this makes sense?

Chris

Chris, please see one of my earlier posts on this. I think it directly relates to what you are looking for here…Global Dominance system.

Will do Cesmode. I intend to read Tides of Darkness again and your suggestions, have a bit of a think and reply when i get some time (-:

Whilst i may not be responding as much as i wish i could i do want to say that this initiative has already impacted many of our discussions internally and will do so moving forward. So far (outside of lack of time on my part and other developers) CD is proving to be extremely valuable. But as they say the proof is in the pudding, and whilst we have already been heavily influenced by the community in the past regarding course correction in development, i am really looking forward to us all seeing the fruits of these discussions in the future.

Chris

Sweet, i love these statements.
I have a silly question, though.

Can we have some blogposts from some teammembers, telling us how they work and how things have changed. Some retrospective basicly?
Sorry for beeing offtopic. but i really like the more personal stories of the people involved in the projects i like.

How long will these CDs go btw.? when is the cut off date and will we get some “mid term results” which might shift the discusion to some specific topics.
We got some lead from you Chris allready, which is awesome, but with the high amount of ideas collected here (and i bet this takes a lot of time to digest and rate), some kind of filtering might be nescessary. Maybe closing this one here and opening anew with a new direction.
Like the new “events” that are beeing sugested, this here beeing the start event and is now snowballing into new ones.

Well, basicly i like just more juicy info on where we are right now. Like an update from your side, since we can`t see it.

hm.. that is keeping me up now, it is past 1am… i am hitting the matress now and might come up with some new ideas tommorow. hopefully i am able to articulate them a bit better, then my previous entires

Skan.5301:

Xae Isareth.1364:

This is might be a bit of a far-fetched idea, but what if we included PvP within a DE.

For example, a powerful artifact was unearthed in the middle of Gendarren Fields, and all three orders of Tyria want their hands on it. As a result, GF turns into a warzone between players belonging to each order, with objectives for each order and towns/villages turning into capture points for each order WvW style.

Depending on who ultimately fulfills their objectives and ends up getting their hands on the relic, different DEs can stem from it.

“Keep PvE out of PvP, and PvP out of PvE.”

Seriously though. Doing something like that could cause more outcry than not doing that. Some people just hate PvP and the forums would be full of post asking ANet why and to remove it.

The PvPers might not care. Many of them don’t PvE anyway.

The thing that’s different about this is that there’s no real rewards to winning or losing, which makes it a bit different from the traditional sense of PvP. unless you cared about your order than much anyways.

Xae Isareth.1364:

The thing that’s different about this is that there’s no real rewards to winning or losing, which makes it a bit different from the traditional sense of PvP. unless you cared about your order than much anyways.

Unfortunately it probably won’t happen, as it’s not a matter of rewards, it’s a matter of design philosophy. One of the few goals they’ve kept true to, is that PvE should on the whole, remain a place where people work together, not against each other. It’s why we don’t have big opposing factions in PvE, and why they have had a hard stance on dueling in PvE(meaning, not gonna happen bud).

Xae Isareth.1364:

Skan.5301:

Xae Isareth.1364:

This is might be a bit of a far-fetched idea, but what if we included PvP within a DE.

For example, a powerful artifact was unearthed in the middle of Gendarren Fields, and all three orders of Tyria want their hands on it. As a result, GF turns into a warzone between players belonging to each order, with objectives for each order and towns/villages turning into capture points for each order WvW style.

Depending on who ultimately fulfills their objectives and ends up getting their hands on the relic, different DEs can stem from it.

“Keep PvE out of PvP, and PvP out of PvE.”

Seriously though. Doing something like that could cause more outcry than not doing that. Some people just hate PvP and the forums would be full of post asking ANet why and to remove it.

The PvPers might not care. Many of them don’t PvE anyway.

The thing that’s different about this is that there’s no real rewards to winning or losing, which makes it a bit different from the traditional sense of PvP. unless you cared about your order than much anyways.

Even if it’s different, it’s still PvP in aspect. It’s players fighting other players. And there are many many people who are dead set on not doing that kind of playing. It’s like Factions. Separate the players based on their Order choice.

As far as caring about the Orders, I would be willing to be maybe a handful actually care about them. It’s all about the Salad in the end.

Flesh out the Orders. It’s like the personal part of the personal story. Around the middle or so, you don’t have that much to do with the Order you chose. What about having something to do after we beat Zhaitan? I’d be willing to keep in touch with my Order through some missions or anything.

Xae Isareth.1364:

This is might be a bit of a far-fetched idea, but what if we included PvP within a DE.

For example, a powerful artifact was unearthed in the middle of Gendarren Fields, and all three orders of Tyria want their hands on it. As a result, GF turns into a warzone between players belonging to each order, with objectives for each order and towns/villages turning into capture points for each order WvW style.

Depending on who ultimately fulfills their objectives and ends up getting their hands on the relic, different DEs can stem from it.

Bad idea, since it could also divide parties who might stumble over it and guilds who are trying to work together.
This is something for GvG or a later expansion, where this feature is more fleshed out.
Like in Factions, where they where fighting over territory.

Aside from that.
Update the Orders. Right now they are nothing more then a plot device in the PS then a part of the world.

Have us do jobs for them. Here again we can look back to GW1 and their Zeishen Quests:
- Daily or weekly objectives for each order member to complete.
This grants them access to something special. For example an “elite” version of the orders Armor and Weapons, maybe.
- Or Order specific skills. Like summoning an order Assassin Elite, Summoning two mini-golems which zapp enemies around you (Gradius style)

timmyf.1490:

Nike, I’m curious as to whether we’ve had the same experience: after a few months into the game, I was BORED with dragons. I had no interest in fighting more dragons.

I will say I was bored fighting Risen. While there’s actually a pretty huge roster of critter types in the ‘Risen’ bin, they really run together in my mind. When I was listing out 5 ‘headliners’ for the 5 major events in my TIDES OF DECAY proposal, it was partially in an effort to showcase that the is more to Zaitan’s minions than just another walking corpse with whatever set of skills the name is hinting at.

My strongest emotional investment in the game is through the eyes of the Norn, so to me, that giant tooth in the great hall of Hoelbrak is an open wound calling out to be cauterized in the fire of some righteous beatdown. I’ve never not been ready to answer that call.

I had no interest in fighting the one dragon we had. “Victory or Death” stuck around in the top-right corner of my screen for months.

I’m not a very proactive group builder. I’m happiest as a faithful and capable lieutenant – the kind great leaders hope to have. For me trying to entice 4 other people to join a group to knock out Arah story mode is worse than any trip to the dentist (and I had 3 wisdom teeth out in a single visit, so the low end of my Dentist experience is pretty darn low…). Having the climax of the personal story be a dungeon is on my list of “5 worst GW2 mis-steps”. Even if I appreciate it tying together the dungeon storyline of Destiny’s Edge with your Personal Storyline [insert obligatory Trahearne’s Story joke here], it’s still just horribly jarring to me.

But now that we’ve had nearly a year of Living Story releases, I feel like it’s time to get back to the dragons. ESPECIALLY if it means getting to push further in the map to get to them.

I’m completely prepared to return to the essential conflict of the setting. That said, I also appreciate the dance ANet is going to have to so. As much as I’d love to pit my Legend against Jormag, he probably has to stay so far down the stack of choices that we’ll never fight him before the game goes dark, simply because a win against Jormag will BREAK tons of effort put into dialogue both in Hoelbrak and across the Shiverpeaks.

Mordramoth, Dragon of Blight (corrupted Wood) and Bubbles, Dragon of Murk (corrupted Water) are both low hanging fruit, easier to work with because so little has been said about them. Their annihilation at the hands of our character won’t impact a lot of the foundational work put into the regions we have access to now.

I don’t think Scarlet is a Dragon Lieutenant, but I do think her story could easily be prologue for the corrupted wood dragon moving center stage. Bubbles would still come third, but I see a revamp of underwater play/skills before moving the action so completely beneath the waves… (and inundating us with more Quaggan content ((shudder)).)

I do hope Scarlet is draconic prologue in some form, because honestly, MMOs die. The engine ages. The churn declines. I want to get on with it so at the very least I’ve put a sword through Primordius’ eye before we’re all looking at this game’s graphics and thinking “man, that is so last decade…”

Dunan Atreides.5436:

Here’s an idea that I hope doesn’t get buried:

change the background in the character selection screen to reflect the current living story

In the entire process of booting up the game and logging in, This is the most visual and impactful thing you guys can change (I think) that clearly signals something is new in the game. It fills up the entire screen, and hypes the player for the new content. You’ll definitely notice, if last time you logged in there were floating ships, colorful banners, and a bright blue sky representing the bazaar of the four winds, but when you logged in this week, everything was a deep red and you see Divinity’s Reach in flames in the background (Maybe, clockwork chaos). I’ll be honest, I don’t read the text on the patching window.

This idea gets many, many thumbs up from me.

[APROVED]

I know there’s a lot of Scarlet hate on the lore forums. I feel a lot of it is exaggerated, but I have to agree with it because we have not been told one specific important thing.

Her goal.

We know she convinced the flame legion and dredge to work together. We know she got the inquest to develop weapons and equipment for her pirate army. We know she was behind the assassination of Theo Ashford(It was that guy right? I’m bad with names…). When we finally get to see who’s behind all this, she just seems like a crazy person with godly powers and no plan. The short story telling us she wants to write her own destiny that’s not bound by the will of the pale tree or the nightmare was not enough, and we have waited waaaaaay to long for this character to really be fleshed out.
You have the dots. Connect them. We don’t have to put a stop to all of Scarlet’s plans right at this second, but at least let us know what her plans actually are.

That’s all I feel is missing from the living world. The story.

Nike.2631:

Dunan Atreides.5436:

Here’s an idea that I hope doesn’t get buried:

change the background in the character selection screen to reflect the current living story

In the entire process of booting up the game and logging in, This is the most visual and impactful thing you guys can change (I think) that clearly signals something is new in the game. It fills up the entire screen, and hypes the player for the new content. You’ll definitely notice, if last time you logged in there were floating ships, colorful banners, and a bright blue sky representing the bazaar of the four winds, but when you logged in this week, everything was a deep red and you see Divinity’s Reach in flames in the background (Maybe, clockwork chaos). I’ll be honest, I don’t read the text on the patching window.

This idea gets many, many thumbs up from me.

[APROVED]

Question is, will ANet approve it?

I had another idea that came with this idea when I first thought of it – the idea of collecting these backgrounds on each release. Of course you’ll always have the default, but as the living story releaeses occur, completion of the achievements mean permanently having access to that background.

Hello again Chris,

I won’t re-iterate my thoughts on the nature of the storyline as others put this so much more eloquantly than I could. I would rather bring up two concerns I have with the overall presentation:

Implimentation of new ideas is far too focused on LS only

The living story constantly adds new things, which for the lack of a better term, are simply awesome. A full scale map invasion? A new area with actual difficult group fights (well some were) and challenging single player content up top? A new cityish map with unique currencies, travel methods and activities? Sounds great, until they the materilization is realized.

Invasions
Logging in after this patch and seeing Bloodcoast Tide under full invasion was such a surprise. We had WVW commanders and PVE players working together, small groups and larger zergs. Until the realization hit – why was this scarlet’s minions? Why not pirates or Risen, something which made sense for that zone? Sure, it was exciting and interesting to see the mechanic, but it seemed so… detached.. from the rest of the game? What happened to the beautiful open world with persistent events relevant to that map and the lore of the game?

Can you imagine the awe a new player would be in if they just started, running around Queensdale completing events then suddenly there were cries from NPC’s as the centaurs were actually invading. Truly moving in large forces, with central event points like scarlets invasion, but actually tied to the map. Waypoints suddenly contested and the people on the map had to do something about it. The map actually had a meaning, not just a place for killing things to level and farming champions. And the reason – a number of event chains regarding centaurs in other maps (Hirathi, Kessex) which escalated the random chance of an invasion happening in the humans starting world, or atleast in Kessex which would then push if left unresolved. No big yellow text, no announcement, actual dynamic world changes… totally based on your current tech and what you have implemented already… but something which made sense with your lore.

Gaunlet

Similar with this. Actual solo player content that is somewhat challengning, but then is removed after a month. Why? What is wrong with leaving that there.

Every month there could be new bosses to fight, or atleast swap Liadri out for something different. At random days a special gambit could be added – nothing advertised in patch notes, that if you complete it you get some awesome award – but it’s truely difficult and limited to only a day. But as it’s random, it could come back later.

Again, this would added constant content, based on your current tech with little needed to grow other than designing a new boss every month and adding a function to randomly add a new gambit every so often.

As a player, it’s so depressing to see your team come out with such good ideas, then throw then away for the next grind collection next month. So much of the living story is based around interesting ideas that have been rendered outside of what this world is meant to be – atleast based on my understanding. I could go over half the living world updates with similar points but I think this should highlight it enough.

Rewards

A lesser problem but still an annoyance. When you complete the meta acheivements you often get a single use skin, such as the dragon wings in Dragonbash. Even after the amount of work some of these meta events require, the skin is locked to a single character – and you can only use it in pve or pvp. Not both.

Can we consider having these as unlocks instead? So if you complete it, you ‘unlock’ the reward you can then use later on a different character or in multiple game modes. I carry around multiple sets of gear on my mesmer for open world/dungeons/wvw/commanding, being able to only use a skin once given the necessity of build variety, isn’t cool. Make these unlocks like Zenith weapons.

Also, many of these rewards are things like the baloon or torch which to many characters, are of no use. So we either have to put them in a storage tab, taking up space or throw them away – which is bad. Having a bank tab for living story stuff would be nice, so if you don’t want/need something you can store it in a way which isn’t so inconvenient.

tldr; awe is lost when interesting things are tied down by living story and constantly removed instead of being intergrated into the overall world.

Thanks for your communication as usual Chris.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Continuation of discussions in regard to the Dynamic Event evolution discussions.

And secondarily continuation of discussion around the communities favorite and least favorite LW Events.

Dynamic Events
Variety is one of the bigger problems. I don’t know how many times that one boy has bothered me because his Mom was kidnapped. In addition, “dynamic” events are largely static scripts. Once you’ve done one patrol with Lionguard Morris, you don’t need to do it again because it never changes. For larger meta events, this still holds. It’s almost always the same sequence of events repeated over and over again.

Beyond variety, almost all of the ally npcs are insanely weak. They rarely have the ability to handle things on their own, and often, they will not revive anyone nearby, including players. I assume the idea is that the events are content for players so the players should do them. It’s good in theory, but in practice, events have gotten locked up as a result. For example, the Nageling Waypoint always seems contested because few people bother to clear out that champion giant.

Maybe npcs could bring in heavy support to deal with events players don’t bother with. Doing so would lead to different content and events than if the players took care of things on their own. Alternatively, the Iron Legion could build heavy guns the players could use to solo the Nageling Giant. Stuff like that.

For meta events, I would suggest giving both sides 3 strategies. These strategies would form a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. If allies choose correctly, they could win, ignoring bad luck, and change their events accordingly. If they choose poorly, they would need the players to survive. The strategies themselves can have events: “help Seraph build auto-turrets,” “protect against saboteurs,” “scout the area for intel,” etc. In a sense, have multiple events that affect each other’s outcomes, but in a way where 100 people aren’t always needed. 100 people would be able to turn any tide instead.

Living Story
Queen’s Jubilee – My first experience with the Living Story. Almost missed it as I was participating via the trial. Never actually completed it either for the same reason (Lv11 vs lv25 area? Eh heh, no). I only tried it because a friend pulled me along. I wouldn’t have bothered otherwise as I wanted to figure out which class I would have as a main.

For obvious reasons, I may never get experience the end of it. It’ll always be a lingering plot thread.

Clockwork Chaos – Missed. Didn’t own gw2 yet.

Super Adventure Box: Back to School – I got in during the later end of this. The platforming is good in theory, but it felt awkward. I don’t know if it was lack of gw2 jumping experience or something else. Got frustrated with it at the end when I realized the skins I wanted weren’t available on top of everything else.

Tequatl Rising – I was pretty underleveled then so I didn’t bother. I may never bother. I prefer major rpg boss battles be more about reacting to the boss and countering. Tequatl sounded like giving the player a difficult script to perform.

Twilight Assault – Again, underleveled (I don’t like rushing to max). I’m not sure I’ll ever really bother. When I think dungeons, I tend to think more puzzle or exploration-like. Provernic Crypt and Jumping Puzzles are examples. Going in an instance with a bunch of randoms… I only do that if I’m bringing a friend or two along.

As an aside, I wouldn’t mind seeing more Legend of Zelda-like dungeons filled with mini or normal events.

Continued next post

Continued from previous post

Blood and Madness – By and large, I think I hate it more than I like it. The Labrynth does not pay attention to the number of players. As such, it doesn’t matter if your level 80 with ultimate gears or lv4 (found a new player in there yesterday), you will die. You will not be able to anything. All in all, it’s been getting worse and worse as time passes.

The story instance wasn’t all that great. Having to only get the mini candy elemental once was good, but Magister Tassi’s candy goop was very clunky in execution. She aims it randomly, and I didn’t really have room to work with. Beyond that, I took one failed run through Clock Tower and decided I wasn’t going to put up with gw2 jumping physics with a time limit. Lunatic Inquisition was one of the most dull things I’ve ever done. I also refuse to do the Upset Stomach achievement.

Tower of Nightmares – Kasmeer is the best part of this update so far. I like her; she’s cool. The toxic trippy drug effect is nice too. Good sound effects with that. That’s about it. I can’t really do my own thing if I want to try for spore samples. I can’t even reliably get them on the minor plants scattered everywhere!

The instance itself wasn’t fun. Kasmeer at the end was it’s only saving grace. First off, for me, the starting event is harder than the instance boss. Four enemies with strong effects are greater than one enemy with similar effects + alot of health. In addition, killing them proper was a pain. They would start out with like 90% of their downed hp, and revive before I could finish them. Especially since I have to stand still and let 3 other enemies slaughter me while I attempt this. My allies quickly died after the first enemy dropped.

I also do not like the trope where a weak ally becomes a major threat when hostile. The first time I saw that was almost 2 decades ago. It’s rather unoriginal at this point. I’d rather have to fight off all 4 weak allies then that. Also, their ai’s broke the second time I died. That caused them to follow me around while they were suppose to be resting. They were still useless.

The whole “champs become marked by waiting” mechanic needs to be looked at. It was causing headaches with people either oblivious to it or not caring and killing it too fast anyway.

CodeE.4857:

I know there’s a lot of Scarlet hate on the lore forums. I feel a lot of it is exaggerated, but I have to agree with it because we have not been told one specific important thing.

Her goal.

We know she convinced the flame legion and dredge to work together. We know she got the inquest to develop weapons and equipment for her pirate army. We know she was behind the assassination of Theo Ashford(It was that guy right? I’m bad with names…). When we finally get to see who’s behind all this, she just seems like a crazy person with godly powers and no plan. The short story telling us she wants to write her own destiny that’s not bound by the will of the pale tree or the nightmare was not enough, and we have waited waaaaaay to long for this character to really be fleshed out.
You have the dots. Connect them. We don’t have to put a stop to all of Scarlet’s plans right at this second, but at least let us know what her plans actually are.

That’s all I feel is missing from the living world. The story.

I think something that could really alleviate this, (Bobby if you’re reading, wink wink), is to have more NPCs and dialogue that openly question her goals. In this way the story acknowledges, yes there are blanks, and we know it’s not there, the NPCs are thinking about it as well.

Anet, you guys need a way to define the ‘unkowns’ when it comes to the story, that you want us to focus on. We need the ‘story meta’ that the NPCs are operating on. I think, that while not actually outlining the goal, this will improve storytelling and make players more involved.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

i do want to continue discussing DEs pertaining to LW and peoples favorite and least favorite events and why.

I know you meant “Living Story releases” when you said “favorite and least favorite events,” but how about favorite/least favorite DEs?

Given the HUGE number of events, it’s quite overwhelming to think about, but here’s an attempt…

Favorite events: helping Suwash the Quaggan, helping Fen (and finding Fen, son of Fen… also the saddest DE in the game…), the Lyssa chain (even though the scaling needs fixing), the weirdness that is Oouo, chasing the jackalope, basically all of the mini-dungeons, and of course…

Brew brew brew! Brew makes me happy! Brew makes me sing! Brew makes me love EVERYTHING!!! (though the event isn’t that great, I still love the kickoff!)

My least favorite is anything with Dredge.

Edit: how could I forget to add DANCING MOAS to my favorite list?!

Edit 2: also the events with fun consumables at the ending: Jar of Bees! And the Harpy Pheromone chain! The harpy one is incredible and so many people have never done it.

Dunan Atreides.5436:

I think something that could really alleviate this, (Bobby if you’re reading, wink wink), is to have more NPCs and dialogue that openly question her goals. In this way the story acknowledges, yes there are blanks, and we know it’s not there, the NPCs are thinking about it as well.

Anet, you guys need a way to define the ‘unkowns’ when it comes to the story, that you want us to focus on. We need the ‘story meta’ that the NPCs are operating on. I think, that while not actually outlining the goal, this will improve storytelling and make players more involved.

This is an excellent point. I can’t emphasize enough how much of a difference it made in the Tower of Nightmares dialogue to have the NPCs as baffled by the actions of the krait as we are.

CodeE.4857:

I know there’s a lot of Scarlet hate on the lore forums. I feel a lot of it is exaggerated, but I have to agree with it because we have not been told one specific important thing.

Her goal.

We know she convinced the flame legion and dredge to work together. We know she got the inquest to develop weapons and equipment for her pirate army. We know she was behind the assassination of Theo Ashford(It was that guy right? I’m bad with names…). When we finally get to see who’s behind all this, she just seems like a crazy person with godly powers and no plan. The short story telling us she wants to write her own destiny that’s not bound by the will of the pale tree or the nightmare was not enough, and we have waited waaaaaay to long for this character to really be fleshed out.
You have the dots. Connect them. We don’t have to put a stop to all of Scarlet’s plans right at this second, but at least let us know what her plans actually are.

That’s all I feel is missing from the living world. The story.

She tells you what her goal is in the short story. Scarlet for me was way too easy to figure out.

Amstel Steel.2058:

She tells you what her goal is in the short story. Scarlet for me was way too easy to figure out.

No she does not. If you disagree then give me a quote or even better tell me in your own words what you think Scarlet’s true goal is. Don’t just say, “That’s wrong I’m smarter than you.”

CodeE.4857:

Amstel Steel.2058:

She tells you what her goal is in the short story. Scarlet for me was way too easy to figure out.

No she does not. If you disagree then give me a quote or even better tell me in your own words what you think Scarlet’s true goal is. Don’t just say, “That’s wrong I’m smarter than you.”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/short-story-what-scarlet-saw/
Scarlet’s voice rose as she went on. “I have a great deal of work ahead of me. I don’t know what the world will be when I’m through, but I will very much enjoy finding out. Empires will fall, continents will burn, and when the conflagration is over, I’ll be there to put my stamp on whatever new world this one becomes.”

He fled to go into recovery, but not before vowing vengeance against “countless generations”. -wiki

She is pycho for chaos. Plus she was never corrupted to serve the forest dragon. What if she was corrupted by something else?

On the use of DEs to create a Living World:

The landscape has its base state: a few mobs, some resource nodes, maybe an occasional interactive object (i.e. driftwood, a rust dagger)…

Many parts of it have a DE that can overlay it…

A few have 2 DEs that can occur…

The places I remember best and tend to gravitate back to when bringing up alts have many DEs that might be going on there (the pumphouse in Queensdale remaining a favorite)…

I think there’s a real principle of critical mass were DEs are concerned, a threshold where the region finally becomes ‘alive’ to me, and that threshold is right around 4 events (+ the ‘at rest’ state). For example I recall the first island on the southern march across the Straits of Devastation not because it graphically distinctive but because there’s a DE to take it, a DE to hold it, and a DE that departs from it. The next stop of the march there’s only the taking and the moving on. Even thought there are services there, it’s just not a place I immediately think about when I remember the ‘Trek to Orr’.

I think part of why I remember the Frost and Flame chapters more clearly & more favorably than some of the others is that the massive infusion of events into the Norn Starter map (a field I know very, very well) tipped most of the zone into a 3-or-more DEs density of activity. While there have been issues throughout the Living Story where temporary events overlap enduring events, with Frost and Flame I felt less pressured to ignore the enduring events I came across, and the temporary ones occasionally lead me to enduring ones I had never seen before.

As I’ve said elsewhere, If I were king, introducing DEs would be a systematic exercise in pushing the majority of pairs of maps into critical mass. I understand the developmental directive to balance effort, but I think the returns on effort in this case are non-linear. For some locations, adding 1 more event isn’t ‘just adding 1 more event’, its pushing that piece of real estate into an entirely different class in the players’ minds.

20 pounds of plutonium is a dangerous paperweight. 23 pounds is a new sun flaring into existence (hopefully not on your desk…). Small increases can give dramatic results.

Nike.2631:

On the use of DEs to create a Living World:
-snip-

I think I agree with your statement that close proximity(both temporally and spatially) of DEs does make things feel better.

I know ANet is limited in their resources, but for DEs that are more ‘battle’ oriented and less story oriented, I think making them less linear and more dynamic between the events themselves would make for a LOT of intrest in moment to moment play. Anet hasn’t said this as a buzzword since before release, but I believe the term would be ‘event webs’, as opposed to ‘event chains’

Example:
There are 2 events going on close to each other. One is stationary, one is moving towards the other event. The stationary event is a bunch of enemy healers, defending themselves. The event moving towards the healers are a bunch of Krait Warriors or something.

Once both events overlap, both events fail. Who ever is left of the healers and warriors join forces, and a new event comes up to stop the new, combined force.

Thoughts?

Amstel Steel.2058:

CodeE.4857:

I know there’s a lot of Scarlet hate on the lore forums. I feel a lot of it is exaggerated, but I have to agree with it because we have not been told one specific important thing.

Her goal.

We know she convinced the flame legion and dredge to work together. We know she got the inquest to develop weapons and equipment for her pirate army. We know she was behind the assassination of Theo Ashford(It was that guy right? I’m bad with names…). When we finally get to see who’s behind all this, she just seems like a crazy person with godly powers and no plan. The short story telling us she wants to write her own destiny that’s not bound by the will of the pale tree or the nightmare was not enough, and we have waited waaaaaay to long for this character to really be fleshed out.
You have the dots. Connect them. We don’t have to put a stop to all of Scarlet’s plans right at this second, but at least let us know what her plans actually are.

That’s all I feel is missing from the living world. The story.

She tells you what her goal is in the short story. Scarlet for me was way too easy to figure out.

We know that her goal is to create chaos, but we don’t know why. We also don’t know why she went from being simply sociopathic and self-centered to sadistic and murderous. I think it’s clear from the writers’ comments and the context of the story itself that the “why” is very important and far more complex than “Some plants just want to watch the world burn,” but I agree with other posters that it hasn’t really been apparent in the game.

Chris acknowledged earlier that Scarlet tends to be a little over-the-top, and I think part of the issue is that it’s easy to see the shape of what she’s doing, but a lot of her dialogue is dedicated to establishing the fact that she’s unbalanced and wacky, and that’s (to me at least) the least interesting part of her character. She does get some good dialogue that establishes how dangerous and intelligent she is—and we can see that despite her personality she’s capable of being very organized and methodical—but I think the biggest pitfall of her character is that she just seems to be talking to herself. She taunts, but it doesn’t appear to matter to her what’s said in return. She obviously likes to hear herself talk, which is a valid character trait, but we hardly ever see her interacting with other characters—that’s even more apparent with the Scarlet holograms, which are literally just her saying things at us from a distance. Her entire backstory is like that; people say things to her and she just refuses to interact. Even her big villainous turn in the short story is marked by her chatting to the corpse of her mentor, who of course can’t respond.

I’ve said this in other places, but she’s very much like the Joker, as opposed to Harley—and that type of character needs interaction and strong challenges to their worldview to make them compelling. I don’t think she’s a Mary Sue (the term is overused), but I do think the way she’s been written as holding herself above interaction probably contributes to that perception. Whether there’s more to it or not, what we’ve seen of her paints the picture of someone who is perfectly content to act at other people instead of with them, and instead of presenting as a character flaw, it’s worked out pretty well for her. As far as we’ve seen, she has no friends or emotional ties; in fact, she walks away humming without a care from everyone who ever invested time or emotional energy in her. And because she displays no emotional investment, it’s difficult to reciprocate, even if I find her motives interesting (which I do).

I’ve noticed that it has been mentioned several times, that the LS is somewhat hindered by the personal story and new players. So, I was wondering if anyone has considered following the GW1 path and basically giving GW2 a Pre-Searing (Zhaitan) and Post-Searing (After killing Zhaitan) phase?

New players could still complete their original story, while older players could begin to see the fruits of their labors.

Would something like that be possible?

videoboy.4162:

I’ve noticed that it has been mentioned several times, that the LS is somewhat hindered by the personal story and new players. So, I was wondering if anyone has considered following the GW1 path and basically giving GW2 a Pre-Searing (Zhaitan) and Post-Searing (After killing Zhaitan) phase?

New players could still complete their original story, while older players could begin to see the fruits of their labors.

Would something like that be possible?

I think the difficulty with that is that pre-Searing was a relatively small part of the overall game, and as a tutorial area it could easily be separated. There were players who chose to stay in pre-Searing indefinitely, but it didn’t have an impact on the overall game due to how isolated it was.

In the case of doing something like that with GW2, huge areas of the world would have to exist as separate versions, and any way they could pull that off as far as technology goes would probably cause bigger problems for the game and the playerbase than it would solve. I do agree that the personal story potentially hinders the living story, and it’s one of the things I’m most concerned about, but I think the most straightforward solution is to not insist on preserving the world for the sake of one piece of content while the goal of the entire current marketing and development strategy hinges on the idea that the world is constantly changing. It might cause some awkwardness, but so did doing GW1 campaigns out of order (as well as GW Beyond content) when the timeline had clearly established certain things as having happened in the past.

For the Future of Scarlet:

Ok, I want one thing, ONE THING, when it comes to dealing with Scarlet in future content:

These portals she keeps using? The ones that tens of millions of mobs come rolling out of every week as the invasion events continue?

I want my side to drop the idiot ball, take the initiative, and for SOMEBODY to figure out how to put me and a band of my hardcase friends (Hey, Rox. Whassup, Braham? Oh, Majory and Kasmeer made it too!) back through the portal all clandestine-like.

I want a 1-5 player roflstomp ROMP though her secret base. And the most important thing of all?

I don’t want to see Scarlet at all. If she’s always out building alliances, then kitten she can be out wining and dining her new harpies-&-skritt team-up or whatever. I want to burn her whole base to the ground and do racial dances in the ashes.

You give me bloody-handed vengeance against her Twisted Clockknights Factory, let me be the one launching the surprise attack on a secret Aeitherblades Barracks, let me dump a vat of acid over her personal stockpile of toxic spores, and most of all LET ME CATCH HER UNWARES for a change, I’ll take back fully a third of every nasty caustic remark I’ve ever made about the character. Just let her come up short one time.

1,000,000 bonus points if there’s a full fully voiced epilogue for after we pull out, Scarlet get back, sniffs the air curiously and says “That’s strange. I don’t remember leaving the stove on…”

Offer’s on the table ANet.

Bonefield.9813:

videoboy.4162:

I’ve noticed that it has been mentioned several times, that the LS is somewhat hindered by the personal story and new players. So, I was wondering if anyone has considered following the GW1 path and basically giving GW2 a Pre-Searing (Zhaitan) and Post-Searing (After killing Zhaitan) phase?

New players could still complete their original story, while older players could begin to see the fruits of their labors.

Would something like that be possible?

I think the difficulty with that is that pre-Searing was a relatively small part of the overall game, and as a tutorial area it could easily be separated. There were players who chose to stay in pre-Searing indefinitely, but it didn’t have an impact on the overall game due to how isolated it was.

In the case of doing something like that with GW2, huge areas of the world would have to exist as separate versions, and any way they could pull that off as far as technology goes would probably cause bigger problems for the game and the playerbase than it would solve. I do agree that the personal story potentially hinders the living story, and it’s one of the things I’m most concerned about, but I think the most straightforward solution is to not insist on preserving the world for the sake of one piece of content while the goal of the entire current marketing and development strategy hinges on the idea that the world is constantly changing. It might cause some awkwardness, but so did doing GW1 campaigns out of order (as well as GW Beyond content) when the timeline had clearly established certain things as having happened in the past.

I had thought that maybe they could send players onto a special server for the story. Then, once you beat the story, you go to the Main Maps. That one server could stay static, while the main servers evolve as people play.

Nike.2631:

For the Future of Scarlet:

Ok, I want one thing, ONE THING, when it comes to dealing with Scarlet in future content:

These portals she keeps using? The ones that tens of millions of mobs come rolling out of every week as the invasion events continue?

I want my side to drop the idiot ball, take the initiative, and for SOMEBODY to figure out how to put me and a band of my hardcase friends (Hey, Rox. Whassup, Braham? Oh, Majory and Kasmeer made it too!) back through the portal all clandestine-like.

I want a 1-5 player roflstomp ROMP though her secret base. And the most important thing of all?

I don’t want to see Scarlet at all. If she’s always out building alliances, then kitten she can be out wining and dining her new harpies-&-skritt team-up or whatever. I want to burn her whole base to the ground and do racial dances in the ashes.

You give me bloody-handed vengeance against her Twisted Clockknights Factory, let me be the one launching the surprise attack on a secret Aeitherblades Barracks, let me dump a vat of acid over her personal stockpile of toxic spores, and most of all LET ME CATCH HER UNWARES for a change, I’ll take back fully a third of every nasty caustic remark I’ve ever made about the character. Just let her come up short one time.

1,000,000 bonus points if there’s a full fully voiced epilogue for after we pull out, Scarlet get back, sniffs the air curiously and says “That’s strange. I don’t remember leaving the stove on…”

Offer’s on the table ANet.

You are my hero.

Ashen.2907:

Nike.2631:

For the Future of Scarlet:

Ok, I want one thing, ONE THING, when it comes to dealing with Scarlet in future content:

These portals she keeps using? The ones that tens of millions of mobs come rolling out of every week as the invasion events continue?

I want my side to drop the idiot ball, take the initiative, and for SOMEBODY to figure out how to put me and a band of my hardcase friends (Hey, Rox. Whassup, Braham? Oh, Majory and Kasmeer made it too!) back through the portal all clandestine-like.

I want a 1-5 player roflstomp ROMP though her secret base. And the most important thing of all?

I don’t want to see Scarlet at all. If she’s always out building alliances, then kitten she can be out wining and dining her new harpies-&-skritt team-up or whatever. I want to burn her whole base to the ground and do racial dances in the ashes.

You give me bloody-handed vengeance against her Twisted Clockknights Factory, let me be the one launching the surprise attack on a secret Aeitherblades Barracks, let me dump a vat of acid over her personal stockpile of toxic spores, and most of all LET ME CATCH HER UNWARES for a change, I’ll take back fully a third of every nasty caustic remark I’ve ever made about the character. Just let her come up short one time.

1,000,000 bonus points if there’s a full fully voiced epilogue for after we pull out, Scarlet get back, sniffs the air curiously and says “That’s strange. I don’t remember leaving the stove on…”

Offer’s on the table ANet.

You are my hero.

Mine, too. I’d be all over this like … well, I’d be all over it.

Nike.2631:

I want a 1-5 player roflstomp ROMP though her secret base. And the most important thing of all?

I don’t want to see Scarlet at all. If she’s always out building alliances, then kitten she can be out wining and dining her new harpies-&-skritt team-up or whatever. I want to burn her whole base to the ground and do racial dances in the ashes.

This guy right here, my bookah!
+1 I too wouldn’t mind seeing this.

I think it’s really hard to separate DEs in the Living Story from their rewards. For instance, Tower of Nightmares has an event in SW Kessex Hills, “Help the Lionguard reclaim Mudbay Digs.” It’s a new Group Event, but it doesn’t spawn champions or have an achievement tied to it, so nobody ever does it. Which is sad, because I remember pre-Tower Mudbay Digs, and am sort of curious about what happened to it.

I think the balloons in Queen’s Jubilee were a good example of events supporting the Living Story even though they were a little grindy:

• You got a sweet balloon for doing them! (see prior comment about rewards)
• They were spread out over the world, and the achievement required you to travel pretty far, so they weren’t zerged unless they spawned next to a world boss or something.
• There were just enough variants (steam creature spawns, the five different champions, the Aetherblade captain) that you’d still see new things even later in the grind.

After doing a little checking, the SOMEBODY I need popping the locks on Scarlet’s secret base has to be Emisarry Vorpp, and he needs to do it with utter Asuran disdain…

“That sprout may have come up with a marginally novel kludge, cross-linking the quasi-metric field tables to make a one way gate- until it burns itself out 45 minutes later, but her so called ‘security protocol’ is no match for real Asuran craftsmanship. It may have taken me weeks to perfect my counter but I guarantee it works right every time.”

X “How did you do it?”

“I just had to forcibly stabilize the pan-stationary- no, no, you don’t care about the details. Suffice it to say, her front porch has a lovely welcome matt and the door’s unlocked. No need to look shocked: I’ve been an accredited Master of Statics longer than Miss Can’t-Pick-One-School has been alive. "