Guild Wars 2

So, beyond highs and lows of specific Living Story episodes, and some brainstorming on future Living Story/Living World content (I use the two terms very differently) is there anything else you’d like to hear from us? You certainly have our attention .

Chris, when are you moving on to the next topic from the topic suggestion thread?

There has been plenty of good discussion and idea’s in here, but it has been open for over two weeks, I’m sure there are plenty of other topics people would like to bring up outside of the living story.

BobbyStein.2315:

Melliarc.5870:

Subject : Pacing of the Living Story using the latest two patches as examples of what I think should and shouldn’t be done.

My biggest gripe I think with the story in the Living Story is the pacing of it. As many discussed before, me included, we’re getting too few tidbits of story per patch to make it worthwhile story-wise. So it feels like there isn’t any progress at all. The back to back releases of Tower of Nightmares and Nightmare Within are a prime example of this.

So you’re saying that the contents of each release are too light, and that you’d rather the two thematically related releases be part of a single build?

I would say they are too “light” in terms of progression and depth.
In regards to its rewards, any plans on adding rewards for character progression as opposed to just skins, mini-pets and achievement points aka rewards that caters to the more hardcore player base?
Also, any plans on trying to steer away from zerging for Living Story’s releases?

BobbyStein.2315:

Melliarc.5870:

Subject : Pacing of the Living Story using the latest two patches as examples of what I think should and shouldn’t be done.

My biggest gripe I think with the story in the Living Story is the pacing of it. As many discussed before, me included, we’re getting too few tidbits of story per patch to make it worthwhile story-wise. So it feels like there isn’t any progress at all. The back to back releases of Tower of Nightmares and Nightmare Within are a prime example of this.

So you’re saying that the contents of each release are too light, and that you’d rather the two thematically related releases be part of a single build?

I think if that happened you’d lose the story beat we had where we couldn’t get into the tower and had to tool around outside trying to contain the infection.

I think the complaint is more that the Tower of Nightmare story’s not enough on its own; either you’d want it to fire all at once, which I think is a bad idea, or you want some side-stories developing at the same time.

To extend the TV show analogy, plenty of TV shows have B-plots where characters not involved in the main storyline have their own little adventure. This’d be a good way to advance some of the existing storylines in the world without having to devote a release to it, and it can be much simpler – a few events using the existing toolset, or reskinned events.

I think I see what jayvux means. Either way here’s my thought on it.

The releasess doesn’t have to be thematically releases in a single build.
But in the case with the tower, contentwise it would have been better. Storywise maybe not.
The tower is very nice but there’s not a lot to do. In the same way, kessex hills is very nicely remodelled, but there’s not alot to do. But I really like that the achievements for the inside wasn’t as grindy as they usually are. A very nice change. I wouldn’t mind more achievements, but this is much better than when you have to do the same thing over and over.

One thing that could have been done for the tower is to have the first release on the normal release time and the second release one week after.
It’s kind of the same problem as for the molten releases.
It doesn’t make sense to wait 2 weeks before you storm the tower in the same way that it doesn’t make sense to wait months between when you start signaling that you’re attacking (weather changes) and when you actually attack (molten alliance starts portaling in).

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean that you should change your 2-week release schedule to a 1-week release schedule. What I’m saying is that it would be nice if certain parts of the story were more compressed when it makes sense for it to be like that. But in this case it still makes sense for them to be divided, but released closer to eachother. Like 1 week in between maybe.

Edit: And indeed, as other people say, the within release had very thin story progression. But that’s already been discussed over and over.

BobbyStein.2315:

Melliarc.5870:

Subject : Pacing of the Living Story using the latest two patches as examples of what I think should and shouldn’t be done.

My biggest gripe I think with the story in the Living Story is the pacing of it. As many discussed before, me included, we’re getting too few tidbits of story per patch to make it worthwhile story-wise. So it feels like there isn’t any progress at all. The back to back releases of Tower of Nightmares and Nightmare Within are a prime example of this.

So you’re saying that the contents of each release are too light, and that you’d rather the two thematically related releases be part of a single build?

The proble is just that it felt shallow.

You created a big “mystery”:
- You put the forcefield up before the patch
- Had this big tower linger around Kessex for two weeks and these pollen causing trouble.
- Then we get in and all we get is: “that`s what happened so far”

it is a bit anticlimactic for the “mainstory”.

The sidestories however are quite “interesting”, well that is not the right word. It was kind of a nice nudge into the right direction, but didn`t expand further.
We only got scraps of exposition of the “fears” of certain character, however since we are not able to interact with them after the Nightmare Chamber was beaten, we get no character developement.
Braham talks about seeing Eir for example. So he some emotions and fear towards her, naturally, we have seen that before, but we don`t get a follow up.

The whole thing felt like dangling keys in front of our nose, but nothing more.

All it opened up were new questions so far. However not in terms of: “hm, that is interesting”, but rather “what was the point and why does it not make any sense.”

Gameplay and rewards are great, but the payoff for the ones who play for the story is really small, even though it seemed so big.

The lore forums go wild with ideas and theorycrafting by the tidbits they get out of you little “hints” or what they presume to be such (which in the end might be nothing more then miscomunication between the art- and storyteam, some not revised line in the text, well.. mistakes..), but it is time that we get something to grasp.
We don`t have any idea what is going on and that cannot be.
We got so many assets on our heroes side and in all that time we got no spy, no lead or anything to Scarlet`s plan, idea, or anything.

It get`s to the point where i want to get on my knees and ask for something that hooks me. That makes these supposed storytidbits nothing more then a vehicle for the next flavour of gameplay-type or “change” in the world.

Living story rewards are hardly rewarding when we only get a single 1 time use skin..

I definitely second the complaints about the story’s pace. I figured that since it’s the end of the year, the Scarlet story would start picking up and we’d learn more, but instead, we only learn that she was behind the Molten and Toxic Alliances, which most people already knew. In the overall Living Story, nothing has escalated or changed really.

I think that’s the problem, releases like the Nightmare ones don’t have a sense of escalation. The TA showed up and was defeated and that’s it. Nothing else happens in the story. Scarlet’s arc has been going on for a while now and there’s no sign of a developing plot or a climax being built. It’s fine for two or three or however many releases to have their own stories that happen and end, but the overall plot should advance as a result. Remember how Flame and Frost transitioned into Secret of Southsun, following the refugees and leaving the question of who formed the MA a secret? When SS was released I was certain we’d get some sort of answer to who was behind them, but we had to wait until Clockwork Chaos for the villain to even appear, and then (even though there were Molten Alliance guys in the invasions) we needed to wait until now (November) for official confirmation that Scarlet was behind the MA.

Future stories should be more concise and not spread out so far. I know that not every release is about the current LS Arc, I’d say use non-arc releases to space out the story, and when there’s a story release, develop the story further. No story release should feel like it’s just spinning the plot’s wheels giving players only tidbits of information and leaving them to speculate for months at a time what that information means.

Bobby,
I’m moving this up in the thread to get your input on the idea. Is this something that could untie your hands when it comes to the Living Story?

videoboy.4162:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

videoboy.4162:

Chris,

What do you and the other Devs think about the idea of having a static server that people are transported to for their personal story? People could play on their main server with all of their friends and participate in the LS, while still being able to complete the personal story as intended. It would also give you guys the freedom to change the world as you see fit, without being anchored down by the Personal Story.

The switch could be something simple like the NPC is the Mad King’s Labyrinth, where talking to him transports you to the Inquisition or Clocktower.

I think this is an interesting idea. Let’s flesh it out some more. Can you give me some more details around your idea?

Chris

Hi Chris,

Well, first off, I’m not the most technologically gifted person, so hopefully I don’t make this sound super hard to accomplish. LOL

I was thinking that we could do something similar to Guild Wars 1, where you guys had a Pre-Searing and Post-Searing. However, seeing as to how Guild Wars 2 is much longer, I thought there could be a separate server for the Personal Story, that left the map unchanged.

During “regular” play, the players would play on their home server (let’s say, Ehmry Bay) and participate in Events, World Bosses, and Living Story events along with everyone else.

Then, whenever people wanted to work on their Personal Story, they could speak to an NPC in one of the cities, and be transported (along with their party) to a separate server reserved entirely for Personal Story (similar to the way WvW is done), up until Zhaitan’s defeat. Orr would remain “dead”, all the main NPCs would remain alive, etc. Whenever they were tired of doing story, they could use the NPC to go back to Ehmry to play with the rest of the server.

Then, on the Ehmry Bay server, you could move your living story forward in whatever way you choose. Your story calls for Queen Jennah the Shoeless to be assassinated? Go ahead, because she’s still alive on the Personal Story server. You want to show the results of Trahearne cleansing Orr and the Pact rebuilding? It’s cool, because it’s still dead on the PS Server.

This idea would basically server everyone. The new players have an untouched world to complete their stories in, hardcore players can finally see the fruits of their labor in map changes/expansion, and the Devs get the shackles of the PS removed to allow a greater flow of creativity.

Hopefully, I did a better job of elaborating on this idea. Any questions, just ask and I’ll try to do better.

Also, as a small edit, I think the Heralds (that are already in place in the Major Cities) would be the perfect NPCs for the transitioning.

Also, and this is not related to story, could we get more account unlockable rewards, instead of rewards that take up more and more bank space?

I really like the Zenith weapons. Not because they look pretty, but because I have them unlocked, and can spawn them when ever I want. Can all the other weapon and armor skins be like that from now on? Just unlock them for us, so we don’t have to keep them in our bank.

There seems to be a common thread growing in the last few pages that I’d have to agree with – there doesn’t really seem to be much sense of the PCs or their allies taking the initiative. Pretty much throughout the Scarlet arc, all we’ve been doing is responding to crises that Scarlet has provoked – Twilight Assault may be the exception there, but since Scarlet was explicitly trying to lure Caithe in and any additional prey she may be able to catch, even that’s not really us taking the initiative, but springing and then escaping a trap set by Scarlet.

Things would probably be much more satisfying if we had some sense that our side was trying to take back the initiative rather than just waiting to see what the enemy is going to do next. Even if many of these do prove to be loose ends and so on, the attempts would give us back something of a sense of our own agency that currently we really don’t have.

For instance, considering the trends we’ve seen, the Order of Whispers feels that the centaurs may be Scarlet’s next target for an alliance. By now (unlike in the PS), the centaurs have probably realised that the sylvari are allied to humans, so they can’t pull that trick again, but there is that centaur in Lion’s Arch that wants an end to the war, so a possible start could be to escort that centaur to re-establish contacts with connections that remain among the centaur tribes. From here, it could go multiple ways – maybe Scarlet just hasn’t thought to do anything with the centaurs, but the friendly centaur gets arrested by the tribes and needs to be rescued. If she is involved, our “friendly” centaur might do an about-face and decide that siding with Scarlet is the centaur’s best chances to win the war before the prospect of being decisively crushed by a strong charr-human-sylvari alliance comes up, or we might get word that a meeting has been arranged between the Modniir and the jotun tribe in Snowden, giving us an opportunity to crash the meeting and stop the alliance before it can form (for added irony, this might even be the climax if Scarlet happens to be present and wasn’t expecting to be caught in a trap herself). Whatever the outcome, it restores the sense that our side actually does have its act together and is trying to find targets to hit back instead of just waiting for Scarlet to provide the next one.

Ohoni.6057:

The final story mission especially I was unable to get past the Molten room solo, and in smaller groups the enemies can stack up. You pretty much just have to ignore them and kill the portals ASAP and then run.

I’ve gone through it solo twice now (guardian and mesmer), but it is pretty cruel. If you don’t destroy the portal, the enemies from that portal will just keep respawning, but if you do, you suddenly get all three enemies from the next portal spawning on you (and the combination of the protector and brawler is a particularly nasty one…)

The trick I’ve found was to weaken the group, destroy the portal, and then finish them off, and repeat with the second portal. Third portal you can just destroy right away. Even so, though, you generally still end up with a protector and a brawler tagteaming you. It’s doable, but IMO it’s probably the most dangerous room at the top of the tower (including the final fight), and could probably have done with something to stop the waves from the additional portals jumping on you so quickly.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Also, and this is not related to story, could we get more account unlockable rewards, instead of rewards that take up more and more bank space?

I really like the Zenith weapons. Not because they look pretty, but because I have them unlocked, and can spawn them when ever I want. Can all the other weapon and armor skins be like that from now on? Just unlock them for us, so we don’t have to keep them in our bank.

And if the skins are not going to be “unlocked” (which would logically be added to the ‘Unlocked Rewards’ area with the Zenith skins etc), then do not include the word “unlock” in the description of the skin/item on the release page as was done with the Gas Mask skin on the ToN release page. Players are very unhappy about this.

Also, if the skin is a head armor skin, do not say it can be applied to “any piece of head armor” if it cannot also be used on aquatic ‘head armor’, which is even called ‘Head Armor’ in their tool-tips. Clearly state “any dry-land head armor” or “any aquatic head armor” if it is one or the other. Saying “any piece of head armor” means any head armor, dry-land and aquatic.

Complete the meta achievement for The Nightmares Within to unlock a special Gasmask Skin! As the latest design in air purification and toxin prevention, the Gasmask is a universal skin that can be applied to any piece of head armor.

Both of these statements are not accurate and led many players to believe the skin would be “unlocked” and infinite use from the Unlocked Rewards area, as well as usable on “any” head armor, including aquatic, due to even stating it as being “universal”.

I guess what I am getting at is, please ensure that whoever is responsible for the wording used to describe rewards on the release page is more mindful of the wording used in the future. Frequently using incorrect and misleading wording in new item descriptions is not beneficial to anyone. This only leads to players feeling let down and misled (or even feeling lied to) when the information seems so grand and turns out to be much less so.

Mad Queen and Stin, you might like this video:

Oops, forgot to mention: It’s at the 21:00 mark

Living story rewards are hardly rewarding when we only get a single 1 time use skin..

I’ll second this, all LW rewards should be like Zenith/Radiant gear, something you can summon infinite, accountbound copies of. In too many cases I’d like to see two or more characters in the one-time-only-EVER skins.

I’ve gone through it solo twice now (guardian and mesmer), but it is pretty cruel. If you don’t destroy the portal, the enemies from that portal will just keep respawning, but if you do, you suddenly get all three enemies from the next portal spawning on you (and the combination of the protector and brawler is a particularly nasty one…)

Yeah, I know it’s not impossible, but it seems unnecessarily difficult for a solo run. They should do EITHER the infinite spawning OR the spawning when the portal appears, not both at once, and really under the circumstances spawning any Vets during that event is too much for solo.

the other problem is that if you DO burn straight through to the last portal, you suddenly have 6-9 enemies, 2-4 of them being Vets, just standing around the portal. Even if you die and respawn there’s no hope of burning through that with most builds.

Both of these statements are not accurate and led many players to believe the skin would be “unlocked” and infinite use from the Unlocked Rewards area, as well as usable on “any” head armor, including aquatic, due to even stating it as being “universal”.

Aquatic masks are not head armor, it is a different slot entirely. This is not confusing.

Ohoni.6057:

Aquatic masks are not head armor, it is a different slot entirely. This is not confusing.

Your statement is not entirely accurate. Aquatic head armor clearly states “Head Armor” on the tool-tip description of every single aquatic head armor, just as dry-land head armor states “Head Armor” in their description tool-tips. Both dry-land and aquatic head armor stating in all of their tool-tips that they are all described as being “Head Armor”, while both having different functionality and not being interchangeable is exactly why I am requesting that they clearly state “Dry-land Head Armor” or “Aquatic Head Armor” in the descriptions for “Head Armor” skins in future releases. This would have been especially important with the Gas Mask skin as its appearance and described functionality would seem to permit it to be used underwater, which also caused this release page item description to be even more misleading, not just to me, to many others as well.

BobbyStein.2315:

So you’re saying that the contents of each release are too light, and that you’d rather the two thematically related releases be part of a single build?

I think this could have been in one big release rather than two, after you gather the required amount of antitoxins for Majorly the tower opens up, there could have been another cut scene or instance for this in my opinion. Rather than having the tower open up in 2 weeks it could have been us opening it which would feel more satisfying and meaningful.

People also can’t do the introduction instance (Nightmare Unveiled) with Majorly and Kasmeer any longer, even though there’s no reason it couldn’t have remained for the length of the event, just don’t let people do the tower before doing the instance if continuity is your concern.

Your statement is not entirely accurate. Aquatic head armor clearly states “Head Armor” on the tool-tip description of every single aquatic head armor, just as dry-land head armor states “Head Armor” in their description tool-tips. Both dry-land and aquatic head armor stating in all of their tool-tips that they are all described as being “Head Armor”, while both having different functionality and not being interchangeable is exactly why I am requesting that they clearly state “Dry-land Head Armor” or “Aquatic Head Armor” in the descriptions for “Head Armor” skins in future releases. This would have been especially important with the Gas Mask skin as its appearance and described functionality would seem to permit it to be used underwater, which also caused this release page item description to be even more misleading, not just to me, to many others as well.

I still don’t see how there would be room for confusion. When has an armor skin ever worked on both head armor and mouthbreathers? Why would anybody assume that the gas mask would be any different? “Dry-land head armor” is just too many words.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ve gone through it solo twice now (guardian and mesmer), but it is pretty cruel. If you don’t destroy the portal, the enemies from that portal will just keep respawning, but if you do, you suddenly get all three enemies from the next portal spawning on you (and the combination of the protector and brawler is a particularly nasty one…)

Yeah, I know it’s not impossible, but it seems unnecessarily difficult for a solo run. They should do EITHER the infinite spawning OR the spawning when the portal appears, not both at once, and really under the circumstances spawning any Vets during that event is too much for solo.

the other problem is that if you DO burn straight through to the last portal, you suddenly have 6-9 enemies, 2-4 of them being Vets, just standing around the portal. Even if you die and respawn there’s no hope of burning through that with most builds.

Vets aren’t that bad on the whole – taking on a vet and a few trash mobs solo is basically Tuesday.

The bigger problem there is that there are veterans, and then there are veterans that are classed as veterans but present a higher threat level than some elites. Most of the Molten Alliance veterans – particularly the special appear-only-for-MA-events ones like the Molten Protector – are in that category, and probably WOULD be elites if that categorisation had existed back then. (For that matter, Living World mobs on the whole are generally more dangerous than their pre-LW counterparts.)

As for the “veteran” brawler – there are level 80 champions that are less scary than that guy.

But yeah, having the respawning, the instant appearance of the next portal, and the arrival of a 1 vet plus 2 mooks with each portal combined probably is a bit rude for something that isn’t intended to be the major challenge of the instance, particularly when it’s the story instance rather than running it in challenge mode. This is probably a case where the line “pick any two” is probably appropriate – any two of the above would probably be fitting, but combining them makes it a catch-22.

videoboy.4162:

Mad Queen and Stin, you might like this video (at 21:00):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy7CcwnfUdU

Thank you! I had not seen that yet. Good to hear they are aware of this issue. I hope this means we’ll see some sort of a wardrobe soon. And hopefully, it will also allow us to retroactively add skins that are now cluttering our bank, into that wardrobe. It could be similar to the pvp lockers.

EDIT: Oh btw, direct link to the quote by Colin:

I decided to drop another post, yey me :P (obvious scarlet reference)

Since we had a nice summary by Chris and I think most people agree with everything you put in it, maybe we should start talking about future of Living World/Story, since most of what we talked were it’s faults and what was OK.

I remember Colin talking in blog, or was it in a interview, that GW2 may not see expansion in a traditional way, that you could expand the world thru Living Story. Now I don’t want to make this into an Expansion vs Living World disscusion, but I would like to see what other people, and hopefully Anet devs can in a small way say, what they think how it will be done.

Expanding world thru Living World/Story:
I think first point is pretty obvious one. In next 3-6 months we must see new zones. This is natural thing for an MMO, dead zones are a part of it as well, nothing you can do can stop it…. unless you do things like you did now with the Kessex Hills. Keep doing that, but please don’t be afraid to put new zones in the game.
New weapons, skills and traits. Pretty obvious again, you did introduce new skill in last updates so that could work in a similiar way, but let’s get more proffesion skills, not one skill for every proffesion, since it will naturally be bad, like antitoxin spray is.
New armor and weapon skins that are earned in the game, not by BLTP. I have nothing against it, but I would like to see more armor skins in the game it self.

This might sound like a whiny post about wanting more stuff, and maybe it is. But being GW1 player I can’t feel that we didn’t get enough content during it’s whole year. Maybe I get that feeling because it was mostly temporary, or it was in tiny bits. But I also belive this is a good feedback from a dedicated customer.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, what I (and possibly most of the community) want from you is to introduce NEW stuff in the game

BobbyStein.2315:

Melliarc.5870:

Subject : Pacing of the Living Story using the latest two patches as examples of what I think should and shouldn’t be done.

My biggest gripe I think with the story in the Living Story is the pacing of it. As many discussed before, me included, we’re getting too few tidbits of story per patch to make it worthwhile story-wise. So it feels like there isn’t any progress at all. The back to back releases of Tower of Nightmares and Nightmare Within are a prime example of this.

So you’re saying that the contents of each release are too light, and that you’d rather the two thematically related releases be part of a single build?

I would personally say yes because it would allow for one thing that the current LS is lacking, and that’s a sense of natural flow. Right now we get, essentially, a hard and fast 2 week update schedule on storyline content. That sort of schedule works for content patches (class balance, PVP additions, bug fixes, etc.), and I don’t think anyone would complain if the content focused patches remained on a 2 week schedule.

The problem in using that schedule with story content means we know exactly when things are going to happen and when things are going to stop. We even, due to the teaser images and live streams, know pretty much what’s going to happen. There’s nothing that feels natural about it. By front loading a months storyline content into a single build, it could presumably allow for a greater variation of time released/progression released content. Things in the story could last for a week, a day, 3 weeks, the entire month, etc. as the storyline itself would dictate. If the goal is a living world, then that’s a huge step forward because, as we all know, the real living world doesn’t run on strict two week cycles when waiting for something new to happen.

BobbyStein.2315:

Melliarc.5870:

Subject : Pacing of the Living Story using the latest two patches as examples of what I think should and shouldn’t be done.

My biggest gripe I think with the story in the Living Story is the pacing of it. As many discussed before, me included, we’re getting too few tidbits of story per patch to make it worthwhile story-wise. So it feels like there isn’t any progress at all. The back to back releases of Tower of Nightmares and Nightmare Within are a prime example of this.

So you’re saying that the contents of each release are too light, and that you’d rather the two thematically related releases be part of a single build?

One thing that I very much enjoyed about the monthly-ish cadence was the idea that the story could continue at any time, with new stuff being dropped in as a surprise. With the two-week cycle, it seems like there’s much less opportunity for that sort of thing, and so the progression of the story doesn’t feel as organic.

Having guaranteed updates every two weeks is great, but I’m not sure that it’s great for the story. I don’t want to speak too far from under my armchair developer hat, but I think it’d be better overall if the story pacing had more flexibility and didn’t have to be tied to things like gameplay polishing and basic feature additions. Those things are great to have on a two-week schedule, but maybe not having to make stuff fit thematically would give everyone more freedom?

Bonefield.9813:

One thing that I very much enjoyed about the monthly-ish cadence was the idea that the story could continue at any time, with new stuff being dropped in as a surprise. With the two-week cycle, it seems like there’s much less opportunity for that sort of thing, and so the progression of the story doesn’t feel as organic.

Having guaranteed updates every two weeks is great, but I’m not sure that it’s great for the story. I don’t want to speak too far from under my armchair developer hat, but I think it’d be better overall if the story pacing had more flexibility and didn’t have to be tied to things like gameplay polishing and basic feature additions. Those things are great to have on a two-week schedule, but maybe not having to make stuff fit thematically would give everyone more freedom?

That’s something I liked about the old “phase” system they had with SotMK and Lost Shores. Things could happen in the story without needing a set deadline for an update. Maybe they should revisit that system?

BobbyStein.2315:

Some folks seem to appreciate the option to “catch up” with the story when the releases are additive.

I see what you mean there, it was just a thought. But maybe there could be a way for the story to develop without having to “wait” for independent gameplay features to fill in a release. Like what Bonefield was saying.

BobbyStein.2315:

So you’re saying that the contents of each release are too light, and that you’d rather the two thematically related releases be part of a single build?

Exactly. They could be separated though but only if it would make sense (dramatic cliff hanger between the two releases) and if both parts would contain enough meat (story-wise). Most often than not, I think they should be released together though. The pacing of the story would be better this way. Like it would have been with the Nightmares releases I think. Both Nightmares releases felt like with a 2 weeks long TV ad in the middle of my episode.

Personally, I wouldn’t mind if there would be even one month wait between each release if they would all be released as a whole experience in themselves with some sort of closure each time.

I’m quoting relevant answers below yours that explain what I mean and make my point as well :

jayvux.4128:

I would say they are too “light” in terms of progression and depth.

Jaken.6801:

the payoff for the ones who play for the story is really small, even though it seemed so big.

wookiee.4631:

Future stories should be more concise and not spread out so far.

draxynnic.3719:

Things would probably be much more satisfying if we had some sense that our side was trying to take back the initiative rather than just waiting to see what the enemy is going to do next.

Shinzan.2908:

Rather than having the tower open up in 2 weeks it could have been us opening it which would feel more satisfying and meaningful.

StriderShinryu.6923:

If the goal is a living world, then that’s a huge step forward because, as we all know, the real living world doesn’t run on strict two week cycles when waiting for something new to happen.

Bonefield.9813:

With the two-week cycle, it seems like there’s much less opportunity for that sort of thing, and so the progression of the story doesn’t feel as organic.

BobbyStein.2315:

Some folks seem to appreciate the option to “catch up” with the story when the releases are additive.

Both options don’t need to be mutually exclusive.

BobbyStein.2315:

Melliarc.5870:

Subject : Pacing of the Living Story using the latest two patches as examples of what I think should and shouldn’t be done.

My biggest gripe I think with the story in the Living Story is the pacing of it. As many discussed before, me included, we’re getting too few tidbits of story per patch to make it worthwhile story-wise. So it feels like there isn’t any progress at all. The back to back releases of Tower of Nightmares and Nightmare Within are a prime example of this.

So you’re saying that the contents of each release are too light, and that you’d rather the two thematically related releases be part of a single build?

Yes. Ive been saying this since Day 1 with the living story. We are fed crumbs of the story instead of a chapter. I’d much rather be given a chapter or two for a month, than a few sentences every other week (and I get the feeling you would prefer that too!)

BobbyStein.2315:

wookiee.4631:

Bonefield.9813:

One thing that I very much enjoyed about the monthly-ish cadence was the idea that the story could continue at any time, with new stuff being dropped in as a surprise. With the two-week cycle, it seems like there’s much less opportunity for that sort of thing, and so the progression of the story doesn’t feel as organic.

Having guaranteed updates every two weeks is great, but I’m not sure that it’s great for the story. I don’t want to speak too far from under my armchair developer hat, but I think it’d be better overall if the story pacing had more flexibility and didn’t have to be tied to things like gameplay polishing and basic feature additions. Those things are great to have on a two-week schedule, but maybe not having to make stuff fit thematically would give everyone more freedom?

That’s something I liked about the old “phase” system they had with SotMK and Lost Shores. Things could happen in the story without needing a set deadline for an update. Maybe they should revisit that system?

Some folks seem to appreciate the option to “catch up” with the story when the releases are additive.

I’d say the solution here is just solid planning. Use the story enriching quality of non two week story update cycles while tailoring the actual content to be completable in a reasonable amount of time. I know it’s not your department, but grindy achievements should be excised. If something is going to have a short active time frame, or if a definitive time frame is logical such as in the case of a festival, don’t shy away but instead make a big deal about it so that people know something big is going to happen or something is going to start/end at a certain time. If one aspect of the storyline can be active while the next phase takes over (like much of Flame and Frost for instance), feel free to keep the first stuff going. Make use of the in game mail system and NPCs as well as the launcher, website, twitter, facebook, etc. to keep players in the loop but try to reduce the number of direct spoilers.

Basically, plan things out in a more organic manner with the month long cycle as a shifting playground instead of two finite two week periods. If you feel there is going to be something that is going to take players a full two weeks to do or that they may run out of time doing, then maybe you need to examine what that content is and why it’s really taking the players that long to do it. Personally, I find that I can play through most of the actual released “story” content each in a single couple hour sitting. It’s only some of the added silliness that takes up extra time.

cesmode.4257:

Yes. Ive been saying this since Day 1 with the living story. We are fed crumbs of the story instead of a chapter. I’d much rather be given a chapter or two for a month, than a few sentences every other week (and I get the feeling you would prefer that too!)

Exactly my thoughts since all this started last year.

I just had a flash. I thought about the bonus missions from Guild Wars 1. Each mission in itself was relatively short but contained enough to be entertaining in themselves and each of them had a sort of closure. Each of them felt like a whole by themselves and they were fun. Although they weren’t related with each other, the same mentality could be applied to LS releases (again, story-wise).

If there was no achievements and no rewards added to the Living Story, very few would do the content.

Ronah.2869:

If there was no achievements and no rewards added to the Living Story, very few would do the content.

As harsh as I am on the story, I don’t think it’s as bad as that.

I now have all the achievements done. The 5 tri-keys I got in the process of doing the other stuff. Finding and going through all the nightmare chambers was tracked by achievement, but I felt that was more for my convenience that a goal in and of itself – I liked the exploration aspect and I liked seeing a bunch of different fights including against my mentor and a member of Destiny’s Edge.

Single use content is great. A few repeats (kill the hybrid 5 times, get and use 5 tri-keys) isn’t excessive. I’m for the most part enjoying the gameplay (my durable support characters can actually traverse the tower solo where I see glass cannons getting gobbled up wholesale…).

I think that the achievements on this one are considerably more manageable than even the previous 50 spores and transcribing ALL 24 obelisk shards. The killing 25 spore infected baddies is just a slog. It’s drudgework. 10 would have gotten the point across. I think there needs to be a good look at the target numbers to see when a task is prompting interesting gameplay (e.g. 5 hybrid kills) and when its make-work to try and stretch a meager offering.

(I also appreciated the greater use in dialogue amongst the non-Scarlet adversaries in this episode. While we are stuck with the Leafy-Messiah of Chaos for a while longer, I do see some course correction going on around the periphery.)

Vets aren’t that bad on the whole – taking on a vet and a few trash mobs solo is basically Tuesday.

Taking on one vet is nothing, taking on one vet and some trash is no worry, but taking on Vets that infinitely spawn can be trouble. What ends up happening as the fight goes on is the trash mobs keep getting culled, while the vets survive, and suddenly you’re fighting 4-5 vets at once. This is especially a problem solo, when killing mobs is pretty much the only way to recover from downed state, and vets are very hard to kill while downed.

Bobby,

I didnt have a respond to this yet and I think it is highly important. yo usaid that scarlet’S story was going too ‘slow’?

I posted earlier and disagree with that.
I think the issue many people have with scarlet (I’m a fan btw) is the amount off teasers in the content combined with the slow realease.

I think that if people could read /play/watch the story in one go and one breath it would be an awesome story. But due to the way content is delivered the story gets fragmented. I use earlier the example off Harry Potter. the villain off the sotry is Voldemort, You know he is the villain from chapter one. You get explained why he is bad in book 1. After that he is always there, but there are side story’s. In my opinion thats how the living story should go. An arch-villain like scarlet should be introduced fully during a single release (1 month). then the story develops and we learn more bout her plans (but know who she is and her character).

I think the bottom line is that when writing, you forgot we see and experience things in a different timeframe then you wrote it.
Do you agree with that thats the core mistake on scarlet?

Lost (tv-show) was very good. But it lost many viewers cause the real plot dragged too long. I loved the philosophical mysteries, but I understand that people want to live through the story faster. The same goes for the LV.

Greetings to you all.

I’m following this thread quite some time and made my own thoughts about this topic. But being still in the process to make my ideas round, i start to get worried that this forum would be closed before i get the chance to write down what i have in my mind.

To make a short statement first: i don’t believe that one person can come up with a whole “Living World” but rather with a concept to build on. So my contribution will be pretty vague at the beginning and start with setting up some principles i think such a world should hold and later on i want to get more clear and make some suggestions how i would realize them.

Actually i’m not sure my self how long this all will be and i’m not used to write in this forum (e.g it seems that there is some character limitation) so i will have to experiment a bit with the layout. Mostly i’ll edit some post rather than write a new one about the same point. Also i want to focus on write down what i hold in my mind so if i miss to respond to your thoughts please bear with so for the time.

At last some table of contents so you have a better view what i’m up to. Also i’ll add some links so you find it better while the thread grows further.

Content:

• Basics of a ‘Living World’ (2. update 16.Nov.13)
• Natural World (3. update 21.Nov.13)
• Living Story (21.Nov.13)
• “Living Culture”
• “Personal Story”
• WvW

I hope i get this round up really fast and the first post will follow right after i get it in a nice shape.

In the meantime i thank you for your patience and also hope you don’t want to close this thread really soon.

Hello again. As promised a want to add my first chapter of my Living Story compilation

Basics of a “Living World” – and things to think about

In my case think its important to point out the meaning of the two words “Living” and “World”, because this is what this topic is up too right?.

You can find many definitions about what is alive and what not, but most of all there are some basic abilities a living thing should have like: growing, breathing, eating, increase in numbers and right after what kind of life-form you’re up it should be more or less smart and show reaction when effected by environmental influences and impacts.

A World of course could be a landmass or a planet but it’s also something cultural. So the “real” World is made out of many worlds bonded by relationships between inhabitants and or principle. This is also the reason why the real world is constantly changing. With every generation we understand more of it’s complexity, share this knowledge and start to see things different than before.

(add 16.Nov.13) Besides this it also need to be understandable so you have the chance to realize why something is how it is. Everything that obviously doesn’t make sense do upsets us and threats us like a fool. There are many examples in games like some invisible wall or spawning monsters right before or behind us.

If you take this as the first step this means to create a “Living World” you have to create a “growing, breathing complex place to make it hard to understand it in a blink of an eye”. You could see this as an Asura who deeply beliefs in the “Eternal Alchemy” as a big clockwork, where thousands of cogs with different shapes are interlocked, building up gears and machines which are also just a part of a bigger entity. It cool to have something hard to understand, a thing to work on and learn more about it by running crazy experiments. This means when you start to go easy on you plan and getting rid of the depth you’re world should have, it makes it lose the feeling of being alive – makes it boring.

Also important to keep in mind is, that “life” alone is worthless because you’re missing the counterpart to value it. This means where life is there has to be death as well. Like with light and dark, if you had only one of them it would be “normal” and in this case also static because you can’t make it darker than it is by adding more darkness. Only if you have at least two opposite poles to merge you can create “differences”.

… continue part 2 here

Nike.2631:

(I also appreciated the greater use in dialogue amongst the non-Scarlet adversaries in this episode. While we are stuck with the Leafy-Messiah of Chaos for a while longer, I do see some course correction going on around the periphery.)

This is a valid observation – dialogues among other adversaries both allow for a little more exposition in a natural fashion, while helping to show that Scarlet’s forces are not just the Empire of Scarlet in which she’s the only important NPC.

I think, however, it does still match the problems we’ve had with future releases, in that Scarlet is still the only recurring character. The adversaries with speaking roles, once again, are all dead by the end of the content, except for Scarlet. As much as players may dislike seeing a foe “get away”, I think that’s actually something that would be beneficial for the content in order to give the enemy a more diverse range of faces than just Scarlet herself.

We’ve actually had multiple opportunities for an enemy to get away without feeling artificial or cheating the PCs of their victory. Rather than randomly dying, maybe that dredge weapons tester in MF could have decided after the destruction of his trap that maybe discretion was the better part of valour, and escaped through a tunnel. Maybe the Inquest researcher in AR could have decided, once his golems and laser wall traps had failed, that he didn’t have what it took to face the heroes personally and teleported out. With the Toxic Hybrid’s ability to dive into a pool of water in the chamber, maybe the very first one we fight could have dived into the pool when it reached low health and never come out, escaping from the tower to join Scarlet elsewhere.

Letting a secondary adversary get away occasionally allows you to build up a supporting cast for the main adversary, whom the players also have a desire to bring down (there’s probably more genuine hatred of the kind you’re looking to evoke for that researcher in AR than for Scarlet herself…) and who can then show up occasionally in later installments. Some of those might give the players the satisfaction (unintentionally, of course!) of letting themselves get pinned down and killed (or captured) in an installment that comes after their initial introduction, while others might be left until the final installment to be resolved.

(This sort of setup, incidentally, also allows for the possibility of defectors in the storyline. If a story is to involve someone betraying the main villain, it’d be much more interesting if the Heel Face Turn comes from someone that we’d butted heads with rather than someone we hadn’t heard of before.)

This is a chapter of my Living Story compilation

… previous part of Basics of a ‘Living World’

Another topic is the level of shortage of different things. To own, keep or use something is much more valuable if its has a specific limit of how many people have access at the same time. This does not apply only for items you can own and carry around, but also mean to have limitations by interaction with other characters or facilities. The attempt to own or use something, which isn’t always at hand is a strong motivation you shouldn’t forget or ignore.

One last thing I want to capture, before I make some more suggestions, is the topic “rewards”. Today when you take look at most MMORPG looting items, scraps and garbage to fill your inventory is an enormous part of the whole game-play. It is of course a important feature of any RPG to loot something but every online game overdoes it by throwing massive amounts of items at you and in the same time demand a fairly high number of it to craft or trade for the desired Gear. The question is not why this is common, because the answer is clear: It sells. Fair enough but this is also the important question itself: Why does it sells so good? Most current cultures, which contribute the most to the internet, have a really common education. I don’t mean actually content but more or less the produced outcome of characteristic a person has after or while growing up in this environment. We learn many things like: working hard, earn money, buy what you like, be what you buy, be your own boss, have a nice life and so on I think you know what I’m up to. But we also learn something more deep, we learn the feeling of being poorly independent, we understand how we depend on other and how fast we can lose our social position if we don’t life up to the expectations of other. There is a strong current which push us in the desire for property and physical wealth. And there come modern MMORPGs which of course are eager to give us the illusion of earning something with value. But because being a illusion and the fact that property alone is no guarantee to be happy, we can’t completely fill the hole in our self to become satisfy. A game can’t and shouldn’t try to do this, it shouldn’t try to fulfill all the needs of the players but rather than entertain him. It should stay with the task to fire up their imagination and let them dream a bit about something different. I don’t want to say there is some evil mastermind behind all this. Game always fill some gapes in a society and this is only natural. But you need to make sure that this is not everything your game is up to. There is so much more we like to experience like a good story, manipulate and interact with a system or to experiment with it’s fundamental laws and concepts or just enjoy a beautiful landscape.

Next Chapter: Natural World

mercury ranique.2170:

Bobby,

I didnt have a respond to this yet and I think it is highly important. yo usaid that scarlet’S story was going too ‘slow’?

I posted earlier and disagree with that.
I think the issue many people have with scarlet (I’m a fan btw) is the amount off teasers in the content combined with the slow realease.

I think that if people could read /play/watch the story in one go and one breath it would be an awesome story. But due to the way content is delivered the story gets fragmented. I use earlier the example off Harry Potter. the villain off the sotry is Voldemort, You know he is the villain from chapter one. You get explained why he is bad in book 1. After that he is always there, but there are side story’s. In my opinion thats how the living story should go. An arch-villain like scarlet should be introduced fully during a single release (1 month). then the story develops and we learn more bout her plans (but know who she is and her character).

I think the bottom line is that when writing, you forgot we see and experience things in a different timeframe then you wrote it.
Do you agree with that thats the core mistake on scarlet?

Lost (tv-show) was very good. But it lost many viewers cause the real plot dragged too long. I loved the philosophical mysteries, but I understand that people want to live through the story faster. The same goes for the LV.

The plots dragging on too long and it losing it’s value is something I tied to point out, and I pointed out that they should have moved through Scarlet’s story faster and moved on to something else whatever they wanted to make. BTW Voldemort equals the elder dragons not Scarlet.

They needed Scarlet to have a villain that can twist dragons minds making them evil so the Chinese release will not be a bad move. Asians like dragons, they are always good. You cannot bring evil dragons in that community unless some maniac like Scarlet is behind all their evilness. That is why, little by little Scarlet has twisted all foes, so she can prove she is can do it, She also may be from a parallel world – see infinity ball chatter – in which everything is turned bad.
Remember in GW1 the dragons were not entirely evil.

Where are people getting that Anet is turning away from dragons because of the Chinese launch? Unless I see some dev quote or interview I’ll have to assume it’s unfounded speculation that people keep repeating.

It’s also a pretty one-sided view of Asian mythology. Yes, Asian dragons are much more likely to be good than their European counterparts, but there are destructive and even outright cruel dragons in Asian mythology as well. Besides, if appeasing the Asian market where dragons are concerned was ArenaNet’s goal, they’d do much better by putting focus on some of the good dragons in the setting, such as Glint’s legacy and children, and possibly Kuunavang and her contemporaries.

Basically, less Scarlet, and more Zephyr Sanctum.

This is a chapter of my Living Story compilation

“Natural World” – laying of the cornerstone

This chapter should focus on the topic to create a natural world. With this i mean some common background used by the game regarding landscapes, creatures and a overall environment. What i don’t bring to talk right now would be NPCs, Factions and other story elements they’ll come in late.

In the previously chapter Basics of a ‘Living World’ I told you, that complexity makes a world interesting and let looks more lively. But what does this actually mean for the Game? Well i think it’s easier to say that Guildwars2, as it is right now, has some decent lack of entanglement.

One of the bigger problems with the current World is that you don’t have ONE World, but mostly every zone is a closed up world for itself. When i said before that a World is generally made out of many smaller worlds than the problem here is the point in “closed up”. The current structure of game-play, story telling and economic nullify the setup of the world. It could be also one long chain with maybe 2 or 3 branches at the beginning, which would merge later on again. Also it is not necessary to have 4 cities like we have now, because the only think what keep them in right now is the lore and nothing else, the game would also perfectly fine with only Lions Arch. Just as an example here.

Right now it is almost irrelevant where you go and what you are fighting. You wander around as Sylvari in the middle of a snowy mountain while a Son of Svanir comes by an charge at you. Or you take a walk with your Norn right through the crystal desert (when it is available), passing by a Devourer which then charge at you. Or going in to the jungle where a Raptor charge at you. Or standing firm with your Asura while a Dolyak charge. Or a Skritt charge at you, or a Moa, or a Quaggan. It doesn’t matter it will do what it can do anyway … so charge. And that’s it’s, not much more to be expect. Its true that all types of creatures have there own abilities and skills but their behavior is mostly the same. Everything run straight at you, trows every single skill it owns out and fight you completely untouched by the fact that you hack off it’s life.

There are two mayor Problems in this case. The first one is, that you as player are placed outside of the laws of nature. Whit the exception of hostile creatures you have nothing to be scared apart from dropping of a cliff and feel the power of something you would call gravity (which itself only works on Players, while NPC can’t fall down). The second Problem is the lack of differences in the characteristics every creature should have. Right now they can vary from being vermin, hostile, neutral or friendly which of course only tells you if they can charge at you and if they do this on sight.

Of course it would be nice to see your character acting different depend on it’s race and your current location. But much more important would be to create varied forms of behavior other creatures can show you, like adding shy grassing Animals which will run if they spot you or a pack of wolves, which only observe as long you keep some distance but give you a warning rather than attacking you if you close in too much. Also it’s already said that complexity is really sexy so it would be cool as well if you can find more interaction around you, where you aren’t the center of, like a fox hunting some rabbits for dinner.

… continue part 2.

…now there’s something I hadn’t really thought of as part of this topic, but definitely should be considered: if reasonably practical, the game really could benefit from a wider range of creature behaviours.

Neutral creatures, for instance, could have a couple of different settings. Some could be “aggressive when disturbed” – moas, for instance, would probably fit in this category, and pretty much anything that rangers can have as companions that aren’t red to begin with, since most ranger companions have a certain level of aggression to begin with. Others, though, should probably respond to being attacked by trying to flee, fighting when they feel they don’t have a choice (triggers could involve being hit with a movement-reducing condition, having limited directions to flee in, or simply taking a certain amount of damage within a given time). Deer would be a good example of this – naturally you’d expect them to respond to being spooked by running, so it’s a bit disconcerting when a stray shot brings in a berserk horde of deer on top of your existing problems.

Hostile creatures could also have a range of behaviours. Some may still be inclined to attack on sight, particularly sapient members of hostile factions. Others, however, are simply hunting for food. A few predator animals already in-game have a habit of hunting other creatures, particularly ambient creatures – what if such creatures, after making a kill, had a certain period of time during which they are sated and less aggressive than they might otherwise be (to PCs, anyway, they may go for a second meal among their normal prey if they get the opportunity). Such predators might explicitly turn yellow when well-fed, or remain red but exhibit different behaviours as warning displays when just within the outer edge of the aggro range, without actually attacking unless attacked first or a PC gets a little TOO close.

I have a question for Bobby, not sure if he has time to answer (lots of people have questions I suppose).

But I was wondering if it would be possible for future Living Story to involve the players more? What I mean with that is, is it possible to allow the players to do the epic things that npc’s do in cut scenes? Such as taking down the illusion around the tower. Is that something the team is looking into?

This is a chapter of my Living Story compilation

… previous part of ‘Natural World’

So first of all what need to be changed is the way how creature are actually spawned into the world. Most times It’s not only disturbing when some creature just pops up right behind you just to drive his teeth into you, but it also don’t make any sense at all. To be accurate I don’t know any MMO which pays attention to this point. Of course it is much more easier to achieve some faster optical result but make sure your world feels alive it need to be adjust. This means that you don’t need to get rid of this situation completely. There can be some creatures, which have the ability to appear right under your feet like Devourers or Wurms buried in the ground or Spiders gliding from the ceiling or some trees. This examples show that it’s already possible to spontaneously spawn some threat without fooling around with the player, but it shouldn’t be a general situation. Some creatures should spawn at reasonable place and than start to wander of around the map. Like wolves which could start at a cave and then move in a little group aside the roads. Likewise you do this for Bears but they would travel alone due to their nature to be a loner.

This also brings us to the point that the difference of creatures should not be some fancy texture and a name shown at the top of the screen. The event with the watchknights made it clear how insignificant it is to change your enemies. They may just swap right in front of you but the actually combat keeps running like before – you hit, they bite and everyone is bashing out their dance-moves like crazy. Every living thing should show some specific but significant level of intelligence so that a weak goat doesn’t tries to fight you back, when you wield your greatsword at it but starts to run like hell in the moment it sees you. There should be some graduation about how fearsome creatures can be like some domestic cow, which does not care about what you do in front of it and just keeps grazing. Similar to this behavior it should also vary how quick creatures respond to your presence with hostile actions. Most animals doesn’t want to fight out any reason so they show you first to get lost before they really chose to attack. If you enter the range of a pack of wolves they don’t rush at you but rather observe how you act and if you are a threat to them. If you come to near they give you a warning by growl at you and when you keep ignoring this while closing distance they chose to fight you. This boiling point should be up to what kind of creature your facing, like a troll could be much more short tempered.

It’s important not to split between creatures which fight and some that only chose to run. Everything fights if it has to and most living run away if they are in a situation they can’t handle anymore. I suppose that you could create two factors that affect what kind of behavior will be shown: anger and fear. Anger is fast clarified as a value that rise with the number of threatening actions you show towards a creature. E.g when you catch up with a fleeing deer, and or you start to show how good you staff feels like, it does not roll on it’s back and let you finish it, but turns back at you and fight.
Fear is a bit more tricky to describe than you may think. This is because you can see it from two sides, a rising factor called fear that steadily fills you up until you can’t take it anymore or the second way is to see it as a falling value named moral that drops with the time while you have to face terror and danger. If you take both as rising values it’s easier to arrange depend on which one is higher at the moment. On the other hand it makes it harder to declare how strong-minded every type of creature is. By using moral you get the chance to set up a fixed value every action take-off from the creatures, while you only need to adjust the maximal number of moral-points to create some differences.

… continue part 3

This tread is for suggestions?I will make mine.People want reward for hard content,and hard content by itself.Make real hard bosses (in mini dungeon maybe?)Make them drop not tradable weapon skins.(boss hp/attack/drop rate flexible for balance).Make them not required for general living story.Rewarding,hard,simple.If i would see someone with “living story weapon skin” i would know,“this person done something,when there were crait invaision.” And not just bought it.