Guild Wars 2

Ascended refinement… lookin’ at all of ‘em right here. …Leather, 50 Thicks = 150 scraps…. Mith, 50 = 100 ingots, 50 Eld Planks = 150 logs —- so why then, is each silk bolt made from 3 scraps and then we need 100 of thos? That’s 300 scraps per day to refine and they’re costing more than Goss. While the next most comparative resource, Thick Leathers, are ridiculously cheap still. I don’t recall anything justifying this before I took a break, Silk was fairly cheap but not too cheap. Lemme “Spidey” it real quick.

…oh god why… What were they thinking? Well the price hasn’t come down infact it’s still trending steadily upwards. Obviously I wasn’t around at the time it exploded so I didn’t hear their * cough cough * skritt reasoning so that’s why I’m asking. I just did a CM explore, we cleared nearly ALL the mobs. Y’know how much scrap I got? 7 scraps of silk. Awesome…. yeah I can totally see why we needed a sink this big …. * not *

Anyone remember why this was made this way?
They musta said something about it… assuming Smith still posts here?

Mithril requires less ore per ingot because it’s needed for Artificer, Huntsman, Weaponsmith, Armorsmith AND Jeweler.

I do agree with you that the requirement for Silk was over-corrected when they introduced Ascended armor though. I think that everybody, ANet included, underestimated the amount of players who are willing to craft Ascended armor sets. I would like to see the Bolts requirement drop down to 50 instead of 100, but it seems that the market IS capable of bearing the cost of Silk, so I doubt JS will intervene anytime soon.

I do think it’s possible that the rate of return for cloth scraps from salvage might get a boost though. An increase by 50% might help increase supply and ease prices, without being too unfair on those who crafted their Ascended armor early.

darkace.8925:

If you’re asking for a logical reason why the required amount of a material that cannot be harvested is twice that of an equivalent material that can be harvested , I’m afraid there isn’t one.

Okay so I didn’t miss anything then? They never came here and commented on it?

Alright

As for that other guy’s “Market Bearing it” stuff… mmmm I’m not too sure about that? Are you sure you’re doing your math right? It’s not 2.25 silver per bolt, It’s not 4.5 silv per bolt, it’s 6.75 per bolt and 100 bolts total. That’s almost 7 gold per day. Nothing else in the Ecto refinement resource pool comes anywhere CLOSE to that. Just because the initial cost looks smaller … 2.10 to 2.25, doesn’t mean it’s “bearing out”. Infact, I’d say it’s Bear-ing out of control and could use some Bulling instead (from Anet adding some Mystic forge Conversion).

I mean that players are obviously still able to pay the higher prices for Silk. If the market wasn’t capable of bearing the prices, you’d see a point where basically the players would dig in their heels and refuse to pay any higher. The fact that prices continue to increase means that people who want the Silk are still able to afford it.

Of course, whether those players are HAPPY paying those prices is another question altogether, and one that does need to be taken into consideration when evaluating the overall health of the game. If a player gets their item, but the experience makes them bitter and angry about the “grind” they had to go through to get it, that’s not really going to make them a contented player who’ll recommend the game to others.

They could probably drop it back down to 50 now.

Not without a vicious outcry.

If the crafting requirement were dropped from 100 bolts of silk to 50 bolts of silk, everyone who had (recently) crafted ascended light armor, would be up in arms about it, demanding half of their silk investment back.

Instead, increasing cloth drops is something ArenaNet has already attempted, as many of the event boxes (e.g. those from Escape from Lion’s Arch) can drop cloth scraps, and no other common crafting materials. This probably did not work enough, as it only (temporarily) prevented prices from rising up further, instead of driving them down.

However, the opening up of new maps also means the opening up of new loot tables. I am optimistic about the chances to obtain more wool, cotton, linen and silk.

Good thing I’ve never had to buy a single bolt of silk off the TP. I’ve just salvaged it all from drops. Each run through fractals nets me at least a good 40-50 scraps. I regularly overfill my bank stack. If I don’t, I’m patient enough to wait for it to come with loot.

Now the lower level stuff, that’s a real kicker…

Those that would likely complain about the drop to 50 are probably the ones that would complain when a new edition of the game is released with additional items that they did not get with theirs. Things change and I do not remember reading anywhere that the change to silk in late November to early December was final.

Sariel V.7024:

Not without a vicious outcry.

This never made sense to me. There’s no direct way to use Gems to buy more Scraps so there’s no “legal tender” precedent here. Furthermore:

When the game first got rolling and Soft Wood supply was completely over-saturating to the point they added another log required for refining AND temporary forge recipe to eat up as much of the overstock as they could, they didn’t suddenly say “Okay you are all indebted to us 25% more logs (back-Logs… get it?) now for all the Crafting progression you’ve already made”. When courts change a precedent, statutes of limitation on damages apply automatically to all cases that came before the decision was overturned (unless it was a human rights violation which obviously this situation IS NOT). There has to be some direct pre-existing cause for that level of entitlement which assumes that the buyer couldn’t possibly have known all the risks and at the same time proves that the acting company was actively concealing all evidence of said risks. …..but enough legaleese, this is about trends. Supply is actually trending downwards and will continue in that direction if the Dry-Top geodes & whatever-else tiny-zone event farming is any indication of where Anet’s new story direction is.

.

Also, where is that Dev Digest on their plans to “Change/Expand” on the end game Treadmill? …. let me try and find the exact quote here where that was leaked out with other LS2 info…. ah yes, here: " http://i.imgur.com/o0v29zi.jpg " …..this isn’t just a material disparity, it creates a Class disparity too. So where is this “Team”? Do they understand how inter-connected all of this stuff actually is? Anet’s Transparency levels are at an all-time low over a 10 year history. If they WEREN’T, then I’d already have all the dataming evidence needed to prove that the market is definitely not “Bearing” this obscene disparity.

Regretting my decision to sell off silk I had stowed up from when it was worthless. Working on Light of Dwayna, this problem is obvious. Whose bright idea was it to require 1500 bolts, not scraps, bolts of a common crafting item for a fancy back item with all the ascended materials that were introduced?

How could we find ourselves overloaded with top tier materials (frags, dust, dragonite) yet scrapping everywhere for… scraps. Literally.

This is a problem with all cloth, it seems. I was naive enough to look up cloth types on the TP to see what I could salvage, yeah the train came through a while ago on that one. Sort all armor by value and start on the cheap end, any level and rarity. It’s a loooong way before you see cloth because it’s been ground up for scrap.

Please either slash recipe costs or adjust drop rates. Unlike another poster, I’ve closed out of fractals with 3 scraps, yet always truck loads of ore (can be mined) and near-worthless thick leather.

ilr.9675:

Ascended refinement… lookin’ at all of ‘em right here. …Leather, 50 Thicks = 150 scraps…. Mith, 50 = 100 ingots, 50 Eld Planks = 150 logs —- so why then, is each silk bolt made from 3 scraps and then we need 100 of thos? That’s 300 scraps per day to refine and they’re costing more than Goss. While the next most comparative resource, Thick Leathers, are ridiculously cheap still. I don’t recall anything justifying this before I took a break, Silk was fairly cheap but not too cheap. Lemme “Spidey” it real quick.

…oh god why… What were they thinking? Well the price hasn’t come down infact it’s still trending steadily upwards. Obviously I wasn’t around at the time it exploded so I didn’t hear their * cough cough * skritt reasoning so that’s why I’m asking. I just did a CM explore, we cleared nearly ALL the mobs. Y’know how much scrap I got? 7 scraps of silk. Awesome…. yeah I can totally see why we needed a sink this big …. * not *

Anyone remember why this was made this way?
They musta said something about it… assuming Smith still posts here?

It used to be so plentiful you’d vendor 250-stacks of it because noone would bid vendor +1.

Anet created more uses for it to clear out some of the ridiculous supply we had (which also had the net effect of raising the price).

Anet did not create new sources of it, so after a short period, players started scavenging all the containers that have them off the TP.

Shortly after that, all the blue and green light armors, and so it continued.

IIANE (economist), but:
If Anet tries to manipulate at the demand side directly (fewer scraps to make a bolt, for example)and immediately, the least damage that could occur is a straight 1/3 value reduction on the commodity – that’d be a bit of a sudden shock to the economy as a whole. Not granular enough a “control”.

EDIT: Forgot this part -> Which is how we got where we are now. In hindsight, though, with Ascended coming down the pipeline at the time, could supply-side adjustment have even WORKED?

It would be better to see a gradual increase in sources of silk.

EDIT2: OHHHH!! The worms giants call would work – specially with more giants coming!

Due Diligence Caveat: I own exactly 100 total bolts of silk, so not got a stake in anything they choose to do.

Jornophelanthas.1475:

If the crafting requirement were dropped from 100 bolts of silk to 50 bolts of silk, everyone who had (recently) crafted ascended light armor, would be up in arms about it, demanding half of their silk investment back.

I wouldn’t, and i’d expect most of reasonable people wouldn’t as well. That saying, possibility of discontent due to price changes has never stopped Anet before, so why it should stop them now?

I crafted a set of light ascended armor early and would not be upset at all if they lowered it to 50. I’d be very happy for my alts and everyone else who didn’t have to deal with this issue.

They’d raise the refine costs of the other materials to 100 before lowering this back to 50.

In fact, they should raise the refine costs of the others to 100, and I’m kind of curious why they haven’t already.

Vespertilionidae.5018:

I crafted a set of light ascended armor early and would not be upset at all if they lowered it to 50. I’d be very happy for my alts and everyone else who didn’t have to deal with this issue.

THANK YOU!

Ensign.2189:

They’d raise the refine costs of the other materials to 100 before lowering this back to 50.

In fact, they should raise the refine costs of the others to 100, and I’m kind of curious why they haven’t already.

And what is your Reasoning for this? What do you say to long time Casuals and Critics of Ascended Gear treadmill who point out that the marginal increases in Stats aren’t worth 10x the work Exotics require? You want to make it 20x the effort? Why? Do infusion Slots increase your Gold-Farming 10x-20x? …Is there some secret to Fractals you’re not Sharing?

Do you just really really like Treadmills?
Are you a former WOW / Lineage / Ragnorak / FF11 player?

You are absolutely right OP. But so many topics have been made about the imbalance surrounding silk. The developers have to be aware of the issue by now but refuse to acknowledge it.

Ok, heres my question as it was brought up that there is an endgame treadmill. Why do you NEED ascended armor??? Unless you are doing level 50 fractals the only thing you gain is a slight defence boost, if you are relying on that its not worth it. You can easily do fractals with trinkets and just weapons up level 49. If you are looking at just having the best its considered a goal, not something you get over night. So please explain why the need to have that ascended stuff, exotic gear will do as much good, weapons will be a 5% increase in DPS so those are worth it, and yes i know they are cheaper, but you will only ever gain from armor in fractals. Set goals, work towards them and achieve them.

In regards to me bringing up the treadmill, this game is linear, youll only get better items and end game gear as you play, you wont suddenly have worse gear tomorrow, youll make more gold have ever it is you play which will eventually lead to making your next goal. You can only lose money if you throw it away in the toilet or waste it on stuff you dont need. So play smarter not harder…once some1 gets to 80 he works towards exotic gear, after that ascended…its forward progression, not backwards progression, you are never stagnant like on a treadmill, you move forward with each day.

Scorpion Over Lord.9036:

Ok, heres my question as it was brought up that there is an endgame treadmill. Why do you NEED ascended armor??? Unless you are doing level 50 fractals the only thing you gain is a slight defence boost, if you are relying on that its not worth it. You can easily do fractals with trinkets and just weapons up level 49. If you are looking at just having the best its considered a goal, not something you get over night. So please explain why the need to have that ascended stuff, exotic gear will do as much good, weapons will be a 5% increase in DPS so those are worth it, and yes i know they are cheaper, but you will only ever gain from armor in fractals. Set goals, work towards them and achieve them.

Because it is Best in Slot and many of us are GW1 players who EXPECT BEST IN SLOT TO BE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE. And before you assume: Is it NOT accessible to me? lolololol, I came back to 500 gold in assets b/c the stuff I was hording before I took a break exploded in value. So this is not, and never was a Whining “I want it now" thread. This is about Mathematics and the Economy and fairness to all classes.

It’s other people who I am most concerned about here. Perhaps that’s a puzzling insane stance to you. But to me, it’s where most of my thinking throughout the day dwells.

Scorpion Over Lord.9036:

Ok, heres my question as it was brought up that there is an endgame treadmill. Why do you NEED ascended armor???

Because not having Best in Slot gear seriously diminishes my enjoyment of the game. And yes, pre-release statements of the developers strongly suggested that grinding for best stat gear will not be a problem i will run into GW2. It was one of the reasons i bought this game in the first place.
Do i need it? No, not really (even though stat advantage full ascended gear set offrs is not so insignificant as you seem to believe) – but then i don’t need to play this game either.

Astralporing.1957:

And yes, pre-release statements of the developers strongly suggested that grinding for best stat gear will not be a problem i will run into GW2.

To add to this, it wasn’t merely implied but actually Stated in digests & comments on Guru that have since been removed from both Sources having changed “Formats”.
…(such press releases are now kept only to “https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/” …. and most of them are now very reluctant to ever promise anything b/c Anet got burned so bad by their own Manifesto promotion of the game … meanwhile stuff on Guru was purged when Curse acquired it or just impossible to find/read due to the weird storage optimization there)

I don’t wanna say Bait and Switch … but I don’t have to because literally a million other players already have at this point I even understand why it turned out this way, because during the ramp up to Beta there was basically only GW1 fans as the “early adopters” who they were relying on to help promote the game and allowing for any doubts about it being just another Korean Grindmill would have been too demoralizing to the community at the time. They had to go into specifics about it around the time they started mentioning that gear itself would have more of an impact on your actual Skill effects than the Gw1 “Attribute system” previously had.

The OP’s question has been plaguing me since I returned to GW2 a month or so ago. Yes, I know silk scraps’ horrid history. I used to vendor them myself as well because it wasn’t worth putting them up on the TP. They were essentially worthless. But ANet obviously over corrected here.

Making Damask Bolts require 300 scraps, whereas mithril and etc only require 100 of the raw materials is a bit absurd. Not to mention the amount used in other recipes. I understand it’s slightly easier to come by, but good lord. I believe this was an attempt to empty the likely millions of scraps that were collecting dust on the TP, and boy did it work, but it’s time to re-adjust it to be more in line with the other t5 mat requirements.

It’s extremely unfair on tailors for a MULTITUDE of reasons. Other professions really only need a small amount of damask to create their ascended armors, whereas tailors of course require more in order to craft those fancy vests and pantaloons. I haven’t done the math, I’m sure someone else has, but the price to craft (especially including the price of linen and more, which is also absurdly expensive) a set of cloth armor v a set of plate armor has got to be an enormous gulf.

Saying “Well, why do you NEED that armor?” is a bit absurd (I know I’m using that word a lot, but it fits) as well. When Heavy/Medium classes can fully craft their armors for a fraction of the price lights must face, its a pretty huge imbalance. ANet fixed the problem of useless silk by making it TOO valuable. Correct it back to a reasonable level, please.

I also understand that this is “end-game” stuff here. It’s not something I should be able to log in with 40g and craft an entire set of and be done (not that you can log in with any number of gold and be done, since there are required farm portions of the craft). I am one of those people who have always been a little “meh” on the developer’s stance of making the best items so easily accessible. There should be armor that’s best-in-slot that you have to WORK pretty hard for. But making the armor for certain professions inordinately harder than most other professions is silly.

I’m not even asking for them to be exactly equal with mithril and etc. Maybe have the total silk cost of damask be reduced to 150 instead of 100 like most people are asking. Anything at all would be a blessing.

I think most of the people saying there will be a “huge outcry” about “Hey, WE had to spend x amount of gold on silk, so should everyone for all of eternity!” are likely people who had 20,000 bolts sitting in their vault before ascended armor was even introduced and did not have to face this silliness. That, or they are some of the people who are profiting off this imbalance and simply don’t want to lose their precious gold farm. Also, ANet takes GREAT pride in how they’ve structured their economy, as they should. For the most part it’s simply amazing, and I wish I was smart enough to play the post like some people. It’s a truly inspiring system. But this is a bit of a smudge on that system, and I’d love for it to be fixed.

My question: Has anyone in charge ever even acknowledged this problem? And it’s definitely a problem. I’ve heard enough complaints on the forums and in map chat to be convinced of that.

I don’t disagree with you, but people are still buying Silk at their current prices, so obviously the economy is able to bear the cost. The higher prices also mean that more money is being sucked out through TP fees, so while I personally would like to see a correcction, I have a feeling JS is not going to do anything about it in the short term.

Is it a “problem”? No. But is it unfair to light armor crafters? Yes, I’d say so.

Zaxares.5419:

I don’t disagree with you, but people are still buying Silk at their current prices, so obviously the economy is able to bear the cost. The higher prices also mean that more money is being sucked out through TP fees, so while I personally would like to see a correcction, I have a feeling JS is not going to do anything about it in the short term.

Is it a “problem”? No. But is it unfair to light armor crafters? Yes, I’d say so.

If milk cost $15 USD/gallon, people would still be buying milk. They’d just moan while doing it. I don’t think anyone is saying the market can’t bear it. People aren’t going to universally stop buying silk. Why? People need it. Period. And demand is greater than supply, unless you skip a few days in between making your damask bolts. Because I don’t know of many people who can farm 300 silk scraps in one day.

Mukk.3402:

I haven’t done the math, I’m sure someone else has, but the price to craft (especially including the price of linen and more, which is also absurdly expensive) a set of cloth armor v a set of plate armor has got to be an enormous gulf.

A full set of light armor takes 36 bolts of damask; heavy armor takes 25, medium 24. Every armor set uses a ton of it, which is why it is so expensive.

The difference in price between light and medium armor is ~25-30%.

+1, Silk is a big problem.

Could we hope for an official feedback about that ?

Antares.2586:

+1, Silk is a big problem.

Could we hope for an official feedback about that ?

There won’t be any official feedback because there is no need to have one.

The entire point of placing such high requirements for ascended crafting, is to clear the market for T2 up to T5 raw materials.

Before ascended armor, I crafted bags of silk just because silk was sold at almost the same price as merchant price. This item was a pure junk. Now the problem is solved: silk has a market value.

It does not have to be logical or justified or whatever. This is NOT what matters for John Smith. As long as the market for silk has a real value (no massive speculation and no sink of the price), nothing needs to be changed.

I disagree.

It’s not only about market value and such. We’re not in the Economy / BL subforum, but Crafting one.

It’s about designing a balanced approach regarding crafting materials needs,
which makes sense for everyone.

Here we have a strong unbalance about silk demand / offer,
unparalleled with any other crafting material for Ascended Armor.

It feels just weird to have to collect so much of only 1 ressource compared to the others.

VodCom.6924:

Antares.2586:

+1, Silk is a big problem.

Could we hope for an official feedback about that ?

There won’t be any official feedback because there is no need to have one.

The entire point of placing such high requirements for ascended crafting, is to clear the market for T2 up to T5 raw materials.

Before ascended armor, I crafted bags of silk just because silk was sold at almost the same price as merchant price. This item was a pure junk. Now the problem is solved: silk has a market value.

It does not have to be logical or justified or whatever. This is NOT what matters for John Smith. As long as the market for silk has a real value (no massive speculation and no sink of the price), nothing needs to be changed.

If that were true, thick leather wouldn’t be practically worthless. Thick Elonian Cord is the counterpart to the silk weaving thread. It is salvaged as much as, if not more than, silk. Requires 150 total raw units to craft. And the price at the moment is 8 copper.
The price for a completed Thick Elonian Leather Square is 2 gold, vs the Damask Bolt which is 15.

Keeping the market completely clean of lower level mats as well as keeping those prices at super high values is also unbelievably unfair for lower level characters wishing to craft their own gear as they level. If I were a new character and looking to craft my own light armor in this level range, I’d take one look at those prices and immediately say “no”.

Saying “As long as there isn’t an over abundance of a commonly required item and the prices for that item which people need in order to craft their low level items as well as the best armor in the game is obtainable primarily only by those people who are already level 80 and farming for the end game armor” is a bit elitist. It’s not flawed in that it failed to remove the silly large numbers of silk/linen/etc. from the TP, it’s flawed in that it removed too much from the TP, driving prices for this one section of crafting far higher than the other crafts.

Antares.2586:

I disagree.

It’s not only about market value and such. We’re not in the Economy / BL subforum, but Crafting one.

It’s about designing a balanced approach regarding crafting materials needs,
which makes sense for everyone.

Here we have a strong unbalance about silk demand / offer,
unparalleled with any other crafting material for Ascended Armor.

It feels just weird to have to collect so much of only 1 ressource compared to the others.

ok – I vote raise the prices of the others to match silk

ducks

Mukk.3402:

If that were true, thick leather wouldn’t be practically worthless. Thick Elonian Cord is the counterpart to the silk weaving thread. It is salvaged as much as, if not more than, silk. Requires 150 total raw units to craft. And the price at the moment is 8 copper.
The price for a completed Thick Elonian Leather Square is 2 gold, vs the Damask Bolt which is 15.

Demand and supply. I suggest you look into everything that uses damask bolts. You’ll quickly see why there’s such a high demand for silk compared to leather.

Mukk.3402:

Keeping the market completely clean of lower level mats as well as keeping those prices at super high values is also unbelievably unfair for lower level characters wishing to craft their own gear as they level. If I were a new character and looking to craft my own light armor in this level range, I’d take one look at those prices and immediately say “no”.

You won’t be able to level crafting and your character at the same pace. You’re also neglecting the costs associated with leveling a craft. Crafting will normally lag behind. Value was given to low level materials which before sold for barely anything. In fact, low level characters actually benefit from this as they can sell these materials on the TP and then buy armor off the TP. You’ll actually make more gold this way as that armor is quite often drops from enemies that players wished to discard.

Mukk.3402:

Saying “As long as there isn’t an over abundance of a commonly required item and the prices for that item which people need in order to craft their low level items as well as the best armor in the game is obtainable primarily only by those people who are already level 80 and farming for the end game armor” is a bit elitist. It’s not flawed in that it failed to remove the silly large numbers of silk/linen/etc. from the TP, it’s flawed in that it removed too much from the TP, driving prices for this one section of crafting far higher than the other crafts.

Again, look into supply and demand as well as what damask is used for.

I understand supply and demand, it’s a very simple concept most people learn very early in grade school…. I understand why prices are what they currently are. The GW2 TP has a very fluid economy, large quantities of items flowing quickly from source to end user. It’s pretty awesome when you take a step back and look at it.

But what I don’t understand is back at the root of all of this: why has AN set demand for light armor crafting materials so significantly higher than the rest? I know damask is used across the board, and it’s obvious why it’s used more in light crafting. But if the demand for silk is to be set so much higher than metal and leather, shouldn’t the supply be elevated as well in order to balance this out?

Ayrilana.1396:

Mukk.3402:

If that were true, thick leather wouldn’t be practically worthless. Thick Elonian Cord is the counterpart to the silk weaving thread. It is salvaged as much as, if not more than, silk. Requires 150 total raw units to craft. And the price at the moment is 8 copper.
The price for a completed Thick Elonian Leather Square is 2 gold, vs the Damask Bolt which is 15.

Demand and supply. I suggest you look into everything that uses damask bolts. You’ll quickly see why there’s such a high demand for silk compared to leather.

Mukk.3402:

Keeping the market completely clean of lower level mats as well as keeping those prices at super high values is also unbelievably unfair for lower level characters wishing to craft their own gear as they level. If I were a new character and looking to craft my own light armor in this level range, I’d take one look at those prices and immediately say “no”.

You won’t be able to level crafting and your character at the same pace. You’re also neglecting the costs associated with leveling a craft. Crafting will normally lag behind. Value was given to low level materials which before sold for barely anything. In fact, low level characters actually benefit from this as they can sell these materials on the TP and then buy armor off the TP. You’ll actually make more gold this way as that armor is quite often drops from enemies that players wished to discard.

Mukk.3402:

Saying “As long as there isn’t an over abundance of a commonly required item and the prices for that item which people need in order to craft their low level items as well as the best armor in the game is obtainable primarily only by those people who are already level 80 and farming for the end game armor” is a bit elitist. It’s not flawed in that it failed to remove the silly large numbers of silk/linen/etc. from the TP, it’s flawed in that it removed too much from the TP, driving prices for this one section of crafting far higher than the other crafts.

Again, look into supply and demand as well as what damask is used for.

I’m sure most people in this thread are aware of the demand and supply. The problem is that this causes a certain imbalance between crafting different types of armor. This could easily be helped by setting the requirements to craft a Spool of Silk Thread in line with the other material requirements (150 instead of 300). I also find it pretty hard to farm certain low level types of cloth such as wool and cotton. If players can’t get the materials themselves, then of course they will buy it, which leads to an increase in price. This price discrepancy is almost 30 gold now between crafting a heavy ascended chest or a light ascended chest.

When I started playing this game for the first time I was able to up my Weaponsmithing and level at the same time. But this was a long time ago. Not sure how the dices roll nowadays. If it would not be possible to craft your own gear I would personally see it as a flaw of the game as it takes away content from the player. For example, it seems pretty much impossible now to get tier 6 materials (Powerful Vial of Blood), most of it you can only buy from TP. Personally, I rather have a reliable option to get these materials myself which doesn’t involve grinding monsters with absolute crazy diminishing returns.

Nope, we’re here with reasonable facts making reasonable arguments and expecting reasonable answers. We clearly don’t understand how a market, supply v demand, or the free trade spice system of Istanbul and Zimbabwe works.

This is all clearly due to our lack of education. /eyeroll.

I’m sure most of us know this was merely an overcorrection by AN trying to add value to silk, a once useless item that flooded the TP. Mission accomplished. Thousands of stacks have been filtered out of the system. Time to readjust and put their “demand” back to a level commensurate with it’s “supply”. Whether this be by adding more sources to obtain these materials (silk worm nodes, anyone?) or by reducing the demand (from 100 to 50 bolts of silk, and reduce linen) doesn’t matter to me. Preferably, I’d like the former. AN messes with supply all the time to suit their living world needs, I don’t see how this would be any different.

You’d be surprised about how many people don’t know supply and demand which is why I always bring it up when the issue points towards not knowing about it.

There was a huge surplus of silk prior to last December to the point that people just sold them to vendors. Anet decided to give some value to these and increase the requirement for bolts and for the T7 bolt. Demand is high because silk is used in everything.

Unlike ore, you cannot reliable farm cloth. You can farm enemies for drops that may contain scraps but that’s not going to be the same as ore which you could just farm nodes. Leather is only used for three classes and has little use outside of that. Ore would be the same if it wasn’t use for legendary/ascended weapons, special event items (e.g. back items), and so on.

This is why I brought up the demand and supply. You were making an argument and it seemed you had not thought though into exactly why prices are where they are. There will always be an imbalance between the three crafts because or what their components are used for and how to obtain such components.

As far as T6 fine materials, I’m getting them just fine. You have to think about where they drop, and what they drop from, so you can get them reliably. You can go to Orr and farm events with everyone there as the risen all drop bags that contain the chance for those components. I will mention that just farming the gold to buy them off the TP is usually less time consuming as gold is far easier to obtain.

Now if you’re wondering if this was a mistake, and they didn’t realize the impact of raising the silk requirements that much, refer to the following post from an Anet employee who manages the economy.

John Smith.4610:

We design in some volatility and some stability (silk wasn’t an accident ).

It was intentional. Due to the high demand for cloth, I suggest you think of the overall impact of decreasing the requirements for for creating damask. You’ll increase demand and raise prices of the lowered tiered cloth as a result.

The last thing that I want to bring up is that it is considerably cheaper to craft damask by putting in buy orders for all of the components. Check out gw2spidy and watch the graph to see what the current trend of prices are as they fluctuate by the time of day and where in the week we are.

Here’s another explanation from a poster who is well versed in the economics of this game.

Wanze.8410:

The ratios of cloth/metal/leather being used by each armor profession have been there before ascended crafting got introduced. I understand that light armor classes feel shafted by its current implementation but for about a year they were able to craft light rare and exotic armor for a way cheaper price than heavy armor users could craft theirs because silk/gossamer was way cheaper than mithril/orichalcum.

Cutting the bolt of silk requirements from 100 to 50 wouldnt neccessarily fix this dilemma. It would shortly cut 4g from the overall price but that would result in more people crafting bolts of damask, which would add demand for Wool, Cotton and Linen as well, which all would rise in price. Right now people are willing to 15g per bolt of damask, and they will be willing to pay 15g per bolt of damask after you half the costs for silk. The added value would come from the t2-4 mats.
I think the requirement of 100 bolts of silk (compared to 50 mithril ingots for example) is more a testament of the ratio, new silk is introduced to the economy compared to t2-4 cloth.
Apart from ascended crafting, silk has very little sinks, while mithril has because it is used by 5 professions and also has a huge sink by crafting rare weapons to forge into precursors.

We understand supply and demand and the need to remove the vast quantities of silk from the trading post.

However, what we are complaining about is why it requires 100 bolts of silk to make damask, while the leather and metal equivalents only require 50.

It sure as hell didn’t help when they make those ascended backpiece only craftable with 15 damask only.

Same kitten with Charged Lodestone.

It’s Anets way of saying " Because I like to Fxxk you. "

Ayrilana.1396:

You’d be surprised about how many people don’t know supply and demand which is why I always bring it up when the issue points towards not knowing about it.

There was a huge surplus of silk prior to last December to the point that people just sold them to vendors. Anet decided to give some value to these and increase the requirement for bolts and for the T7 bolt. Demand is high because silk is used in everything.

Unlike ore, you cannot reliable farm cloth. You can farm enemies for drops that may contain scraps but that’s not going to be the same as ore which you could just farm nodes. Leather is only used for three classes and has little use outside of that. Ore would be the same if it wasn’t use for legendary/ascended weapons, special event items (e.g. back items), and so on.

This is why I brought up the demand and supply. You were making an argument and it seemed you had not thought though into exactly why prices are where they are. There will always be an imbalance between the three crafts because or what their components are used for and how to obtain such components.

As far as T6 fine materials, I’m getting them just fine. You have to think about where they drop, and what they drop from, so you can get them reliably. You can go to Orr and farm events with everyone there as the risen all drop bags that contain the chance for those components. I will mention that just farming the gold to buy them off the TP is usually less time consuming as gold is far easier to obtain.

Now if you’re wondering if this was a mistake, and they didn’t realize the impact of raising the silk requirements that much, refer to the following post from an Anet employee who manages the economy.

John Smith.4610:

We design in some volatility and some stability (silk wasn’t an accident ).

It was intentional. Due to the high demand for cloth, I suggest you think of the overall impact of decreasing the requirements for for creating damask. You’ll increase demand and raise prices of the lowered tiered cloth as a result.

The last thing that I want to bring up is that it is considerably cheaper to craft damask by putting in buy orders for all of the components. Check out gw2spidy and watch the graph to see what the current trend of prices are as they fluctuate by the time of day and where in the week we are.

Here’s another explanation from a poster who is well versed in the economics of this game.

Wanze.8410:

The ratios of cloth/metal/leather being used by each armor profession have been there before ascended crafting got introduced. I understand that light armor classes feel shafted by its current implementation but for about a year they were able to craft light rare and exotic armor for a way cheaper price than heavy armor users could craft theirs because silk/gossamer was way cheaper than mithril/orichalcum.

Cutting the bolt of silk requirements from 100 to 50 wouldnt neccessarily fix this dilemma. It would shortly cut 4g from the overall price but that would result in more people crafting bolts of damask, which would add demand for Wool, Cotton and Linen as well, which all would rise in price. Right now people are willing to 15g per bolt of damask, and they will be willing to pay 15g per bolt of damask after you half the costs for silk. The added value would come from the t2-4 mats.
I think the requirement of 100 bolts of silk (compared to 50 mithril ingots for example) is more a testament of the ratio, new silk is introduced to the economy compared to t2-4 cloth.
Apart from ascended crafting, silk has very little sinks, while mithril has because it is used by 5 professions and also has a huge sink by crafting rare weapons to forge into precursors.

It makes sense from an economic surplus point of view, it doesnt make sense game design wise, its also a temporary solution. It creates a spiky solution.

from a gameplay perspective, and micro perspective, its unreasonable to expect players to gather 300 silks a day, for more days, than any other crafting discipline/item.
Also the means of aquisition is not direct. You just have to kill a lot of high level stuff. The only way to realistically do this, and it not be super grindy, or annoying is to do something else for gold, and buy it from the TP.

While this solution makes sense when you look at it from a macro economic standpoint, it really sucks in the trenches.

Personally i think many people would rather have worthless silk, than have 300 silk per day, 7200 per armor piece required for best in slot, with a cost of 2-3silver

phys.7689:

It makes sense from an economic surplus point of view, it doesnt make sense game design wise, its also a temporary solution. It creates a spiky solution.

A temporary solution? According to whom? You? They knew full well what they were doing when they increase the number of scraps to 3 per bolt and 100 bolts per thread.

phys.7689:

from a gameplay perspective, and micro perspective, its unreasonable to expect players to gather 300 silks a day, for more days, than any other crafting discipline/item.
Also the means of aquisition is not direct. You just have to kill a lot of high level stuff. The only way to realistically do this, and it not be super grindy, or annoying is to do something else for gold, and buy it from the TP.

It’s generally more efficient to farm the gold rather than the item itself. Just look at the T6 fine materials for legendaries. Players just earn gold at a far greater rate than acquiring specific items. It’s also only about 6.5 gold to craft a thread. There are many ways players can obtain this much gold in under an hour.

Malganis.7468:

We understand supply and demand and the need to remove the vast quantities of silk from the trading post.

However, what we are complaining about is why it requires 100 bolts of silk to make damask, while the leather and metal equivalents only require 50.

I suggest that you look at the overall impact that this would have across the board if it was dropped to 50.

From my point of view it would be AWESOME to have the silk requirements more in line with the leather and metal requirements. Whats the down side?

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

It makes sense from an economic surplus point of view, it doesnt make sense game design wise, its also a temporary solution. It creates a spiky solution.

A temporary solution? According to whom? You? They knew full well what they were doing when they increase the number of scraps to 3 per bolt and 100 bolts per thread.

phys.7689:

from a gameplay perspective, and micro perspective, its unreasonable to expect players to gather 300 silks a day, for more days, than any other crafting discipline/item.
Also the means of aquisition is not direct. You just have to kill a lot of high level stuff. The only way to realistically do this, and it not be super grindy, or annoying is to do something else for gold, and buy it from the TP.

It’s generally more efficient to farm the gold rather than the item itself. Just look at the T6 fine materials for legendaries. Players just earn gold at a far greater rate than acquiring specific items. It’s also only about 6.5 gold to craft a thread. There are many ways players can obtain this much gold in under an hour.

Malganis.7468:

We understand supply and demand and the need to remove the vast quantities of silk from the trading post.

However, what we are complaining about is why it requires 100 bolts of silk to make damask, while the leather and metal equivalents only require 50.

I suggest that you look at the overall impact that this would have across the board if it was dropped to 50.

its temporary, because as people get their ascended, or opt out the price of silk/etc slowly goes back down.

the thing that kept mithril/wood, above vendor price is mostly precursor crafting, essentially silk would need a renewable sink in high demand, eventually people get their ascended and just stop using vast amounts of silk.

the fact that its more effecient to farm gold than farm an item, is imo a flaw in the economy. but thats another story.

no one can tell the overall impact if it was dropped to 50, people can make educated guesses, but the reality is you dont really know till you go live. I think there are a great many items in this economy that are not performing to expectations.

Being that this is the case, i think its more important to make it satisfying from a game play perspective.

i think the key difference between you and other players, is you grind more easily, many people feel 6.5 gold a day is excessive, and many people dont want to give so much of their play sessions gains away(for like a month), just to get best in slot.

keep in mind 6.5 gold while grinding gold is 1-2 hours of gold farming for the average player. if they like things like jump puzzles, fractals, exploration, wvw, hard dungeon paths, story dungeons, guild missions, they will make substantially less.

phys.7689:

its temporary, because as people get their ascended, or opt out the price of silk/etc slowly goes back down.

That can be said about just about anything in this game. One could use that same argument towards precursors. However, I was not talking about prices and neither were you based on your post I had quoted.

What I took from everyone, including you, when they said temporary is that they felt that the increases were supposed to be temporary to reduce the excess silk from the market after which Anet would remove them. It’s been stated that this was not the case and the current recipes requirements were intended to be more long term.

phys.7689:

the thing that kept mithril/wood, above vendor price is mostly precursor crafting, essentially silk would need a renewable sink in high demand, eventually people get their ascended and just stop using vast amounts of silk.

Precisely. That’s likely one such reason why there’s such a higher quantity needed. There just are no other uses for silk. It also was not just precursor crafting that kept mithril/wood above vendor pricing. There are many recipes that use those two components.

We will likely never see the time where the demand of silk is low due to everyone having obtained their ascended. They’re releasing new stat combinations which could prompt players to reinvest in other ascended. The game continuously gets an influx of new players who too will want ascended.

phys.7689:

the fact that its more effecient to farm gold than farm an item, is imo a flaw in the economy. but thats another story.

Not the economy. You could argue game design if you want but it’s far from a flaw in the economy. I’d argue that it’s more of a flaw if you could farm the materials quicker than you could get gold as that would weaken the value of gold. I’ll assume this statement was made in error.

phys.7689:

no one can tell the overall impact if it was dropped to 50, people can make educated guesses, but the reality is you dont really know till you go live. I think there are a great many items in this economy that are not performing to expectations.

Yes, but I don’t see the point. This doesn’t really add or take away from any arguments.

phys.7689:

Being that this is the case, i think its more important to make it satisfying from a game play perspective.

The game is very satisfying from a game play perspective. Ascended armor is a luxury item just as legendaries are. About 99% of the game can be enjoyed without them. The only exception being ascended armor for very high level fractals.

phys.7689:

i think the key difference between you and other players, is you grind more easily, many people feel 6.5 gold a day is excessive, and many people dont want to give so much of their play sessions gains away(for like a month), just to get best in slot.

keep in mind 6.5 gold while grinding gold is 1-2 hours of gold farming for the average player. if they like things like jump puzzles, fractals, exploration, wvw, hard dungeon paths, story dungeons, guild missions, they will make substantially less.

Then they do not have to. If they really care for having BiS then they should be willing to work for it just like in so many other games.

Yes. They will make less but what’s your point? Not everything should provide high rewards. I decided to craft a couple sets of ascended armor recently. This farming take an additional 2 hours or so every night where I could be doing something else. I accepted this and realize that it’s only temporary. My desire for the ascended sets temporarily outweigh my other desires.

Not everything will be handed on a silver platter. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices. This happens in real life too which people fail to acknowledge and thus many never succeed. If people want luxury items then they’re going to have to be willing to put in the effort and sacrifices to earn them. Otherwise, you may as well just make everything free and available to everyone.

Title of the thread: “Why the double standard on silk?” Why the flawed system that makes light armor crafters farm far more than other professions? If light/medium/heavy were somewhat equal in farm time (I understand it can never be 100% balanced, but should be relatively close) I’d have no problem with it. Make Mithrillium require 400 raw materials (because it’s incredibly easy to farm, more so than silk) and maybe a little more with leather! And slightly reduce the amount of damask those professions require as well.

I’d curse this for a little bit as I play all professions evenly (though med>light>hvy for me), but eventually I’d realize it was balanced, chalk it up to it being BiS armor, and stop my QQing. It’s unfair that light armor classes get the shaft when it comes to ascended armor.

Mukk.3402:

Title of the thread: “Why the double standard on silk?” Why the flawed system that makes light armor crafters farm far more than other professions? If light/medium/heavy were somewhat equal in farm time (I understand it can never be 100% balanced, but should be relatively close) I’d have no problem with it. Make Mithrillium require 400 raw materials (because it’s incredibly easy to farm, more so than silk) and maybe a little more with leather! And slightly reduce the amount of damask those professions require as well.

I’d curse this for a little bit as I play all professions evenly (though med>light>hvy for me), but eventually I’d realize it was balanced, chalk it up to it being BiS armor, and stop my QQing. It’s unfair that light armor classes get the shaft when it comes to ascended armor.

You’re making the same mistake that so many others make by just thinking solely on silk prices and making them more inline with mithril. You’re completely neglecting to think of how this would impact everything else in the game.

I don’t think you’re understanding my PoV. Am I angry that silk costs so much? Kind of. Am I more angry that heavy/medium can craft their armor at a fairly reduced price because they don’t need as much damask? Definitely. The recipes need to be adjusted to either lower the amount required for damask or increase the amount of metal/leather needed for heavy/medium armor. Simple balance.

I know mithril gets used a lot for people who toilet rares for legendaries and etc. Whoopdeedoo. It’s still the least expensive component of those combines, and extremely easy to farm. If the silk amount for damask isn’t going to be changed, then leather/mithril definitely definitely needs to be upped.

Mukk.3402:

I don’t think you’re understanding my PoV. Am I angry that silk costs so much? Kind of. Am I more angry that heavy/medium can craft their armor at a fairly reduced price because they don’t need as much damask? Definitely. The recipes need to be adjusted to either lower the amount required for damask or increase the amount of metal/leather needed for heavy/medium armor. Simple balance.

I know mithril gets used a lot for people who toilet rares for legendaries and etc. Whoopdeedoo. It’s still the least expensive component of those combines, and extremely easy to farm. If the silk amount for damask isn’t going to be changed, then leather/mithril definitely definitely needs to be upped.

Again. You’re focusing solely on the prices of a couple items and wanting changes to be more in line with what you deem fair without thinking about how those changes would affect the market.

Ayrilana.1396:

Again. You’re focusing solely on the prices of a couple items and wanting changes to be more in line with what you deem fair without thinking about how those changes would affect the market.

And here, again, you concentrate on market as a whole, completely ignoring its impact on individuals. Which is the general problem with economics, by the way.