Guild Wars 2

Rauderi.8706:

OtterPaws.2036:

Wouldnt just checking the person’s personal fractal level VIA LFG be a better way to determine if they are experienced or nah?

As I haven’t checked before, curious question:

Is that visible to other people? I vaguely think yes, but I’m not sure. Though, yeah, it would be a better indicator of fractal performance.

Yup, everyone who is in the party is visible there

SkullProX.7083:

These QQ threads are really getting annoying. Some people have AP requirements, then just let them be and ignore them, there is literally no point of crying on forums. It’s not against the rules either, and anet can’t/won’t do anything about it, so tell me what did you want to accomplish by opening this topic? They even wrote 5k or kick, so I really don’t get you-.- pointless thread 0/10

So what you are saying is when something is annoying, you should ignore it and not respond… That you should just scroll on by it. You are saying we should ignore things that bother us rather than respond on the forums.

That is an interesting idea. We should implement that.

if anyone has an AP requirement in their LFG, they are probably bad at the game, since they need everyone else in the party to be good to make up for it. So I never join them, except maybe to laugh at them and then leave party. Plus it’s only like 1% of LFG ads, so you don’t miss out on much.

Danikat.8537:

Even the people who use it know it’s a ridiculous system that doesn’t actually tell them anything except that this person has been in the game longer than a month or so.

Especially considering most achievement points are gained by playing PvE, and often relatively easy PvE like exploring open-world maps and doing the story, or totally unrelated things like jumping puzzles.

If they could they’d be demanding a gear check, or DPS score or whatever else you can judge people on in other games. But they can’t so they settle for what they can judge you on. It’s the “grown up” equivalent of kids whose school brings in a uniform so they can’t judge each other on their clothes, so they judge you on your bag or where you buy your notebook instead.

And yes, even for easy content. You’ll sometimes see the same thing for story mode dungeons.

If you’re not interested in that type of elitist you’re best off just ignoring any party with an AP requirement.

Been in the game for longer than a month is actually not an unreasonable expectation for scale 32 fractal. That requires 29 AR. It takes about a month for 2 rings, 2 accessories and an amulet from pristine relics, laurels and guild commendations. That gives you 25 AR which is still a bit less than 29.

Khisanth.2948:

Danikat.8537:

Even the people who use it know it’s a ridiculous system that doesn’t actually tell them anything except that this person has been in the game longer than a month or so.

Especially considering most achievement points are gained by playing PvE, and often relatively easy PvE like exploring open-world maps and doing the story, or totally unrelated things like jumping puzzles.

If they could they’d be demanding a gear check, or DPS score or whatever else you can judge people on in other games. But they can’t so they settle for what they can judge you on. It’s the “grown up” equivalent of kids whose school brings in a uniform so they can’t judge each other on their clothes, so they judge you on your bag or where you buy your notebook instead.

And yes, even for easy content. You’ll sometimes see the same thing for story mode dungeons.

If you’re not interested in that type of elitist you’re best off just ignoring any party with an AP requirement.

Been in the game for longer than a month is actually not an unreasonable expectation for scale 32 fractal. That requires 29 AR. It takes about a month for 2 rings, 2 accessories and an amulet from pristine relics, laurels and guild commendations. That gives you 25 AR which is still a bit less than 29.

You can get an amulet from both PvP and HoT story achievements. Theres also the potion from the fractal vendor that gives 10 AR. You can also do the mastery track for the mistlock singularity for another 5 which took me a couple weeks after starting to get. Also there’s a large chance to get an attuned ring since you’ll have enough AR to do the 21-50 dailies and you’ll most likely be able to infuse it right away. A month is plenty of time to get enough AR for scale 32.

Ayrilana.1396:

It measures experience within the game.

If by experience, you mean how fast you can do easy achievements or pay to get AP then sure. But then it would not be direct experience with the game.

reapex.8546:

Ayrilana.1396:

It measures experience within the game.

If by experience, you mean how fast you can do easy achievements or pay to get AP then sure. But then it would not be direct experience with the game.

It experience in the game on a general level as stated in previous posts.

Measuring by AP is a stupid measurement, one that sadly people think “works”.
Not to mention, they are doing the most brain dead of fractals, swamp, and at that low of a level, its way easy to get the wisps even if traps are triggered.

So if anything, consider yourself lucky you weren’t with that group, as most likely they were looking for someone to carry THEM.

Actually, I like to tease those groups when I join, see they are below 15k, say “i’m not carrying this group, low AP” and leave.

I guess those guild runs pay off when not everyone has the AR required for level 60s. Not the fastest, sure, but always successful.

Plus 5k AP? I got that like 3 years ago.

David ap means everything to this game .
so there is a requirement .
ap means your skills in the game
ap means your knowledge of the game
ap means your knowledge of the class you play
ap means everything in this game.

yeah I have seen 21k ap player with no knowledge of dodge or the class they are playing.
so get that 5k ap faster people don’t care how good your are with the game/class/content.

in case you guys didn’t notice it’s a sarcasm. haha

Rahar.9872:

Yes hello David, I happen to be in said daily party that does this for low level fractals, and chances are you’re referencing us (myself and two friends) by your post.

The vast majority of posters in this thread are right. It’s an easy, albeit occasionally inaccurate way to judge player experience level at a glance and attempt to guarantee that the run will go as quickly and as smoothly as possible.

Does it always work? No. Sometimes we end up being slow anyway, due to people leaving or having the requirement and still being inexperienced. But it can have a large effect on the kind of player that does end up joining our party, and I find we’re generally faster.

Bottom line is: We are not obligated to babysit you, hold your hand, or tell you that it’s going to be okay and that your 2.3k achievement points won’t be an issue. We -could- require you to send us a picture of yourself with a shoe on your head before you joined our party and we could still kick you for not doing it. We’re going to play how we want to play.

I just laugh at your AP requirement. Do you know what I do with these people that doing party with such useless requirement? —-> blacklist. Most of the time these people are toxic, I don’t want to play with them. And your post is a perfect example.

Oh and even with my 6k ap I think I have enough experience from the game. I just don’t care about dailies at all during these 3 years. Just to see you the fact that your requirement is pointless.

Khisanth.2948:

Danikat.8537:

Even the people who use it know it’s a ridiculous system that doesn’t actually tell them anything except that this person has been in the game longer than a month or so.

Especially considering most achievement points are gained by playing PvE, and often relatively easy PvE like exploring open-world maps and doing the story, or totally unrelated things like jumping puzzles.

If they could they’d be demanding a gear check, or DPS score or whatever else you can judge people on in other games. But they can’t so they settle for what they can judge you on. It’s the “grown up” equivalent of kids whose school brings in a uniform so they can’t judge each other on their clothes, so they judge you on your bag or where you buy your notebook instead.

And yes, even for easy content. You’ll sometimes see the same thing for story mode dungeons.

If you’re not interested in that type of elitist you’re best off just ignoring any party with an AP requirement.

Been in the game for longer than a month is actually not an unreasonable expectation for scale 32 fractal. That requires 29 AR. It takes about a month for 2 rings, 2 accessories and an amulet from pristine relics, laurels and guild commendations. That gives you 25 AR which is still a bit less than 29.

This is wrong. Rings can be dropped with low level fractal dailies and you can buy them with pristine relic. If you are not a free to play player, you can attune these rings that gives agony slot for almost no cost. And the %drop for rings is pretty high.

Here’s what I don’t really get. Yes, there are those that create their own LFG with whatever restrictions that they wish. They created the LFG so they are completely free to do this. What I haven’t seen is these players coming onto the forums to chastise players who don’t agree with what they’re doing other than to defend themselves.

What I do see are those that disagree with AP being used as a restriction, which doesn’t even affect them 99% of the time, come onto the forums and belittle them. Who are really the toxic ones here? Those players are not coming into your group demanding all of you to have 5K+ AP or whatever it is that they want. They’re creating their own party for that and those that disagree with it can simply ignore it.

If people start creating restrictions for asura only groups are people going to come on here creating threads/posts about how wrong that is and how toxic those players are for doing so?

Because any arbritrary AP requirement is automatically belittling anyone who doesn’t have said requirement. It’s just the a constant reminder for some that they haven’t done enough achievements and thus are unable to join certain parties.

You could also just ignore this thread all together as it really doesn’t affect whatever requirements people want to set anyway. In fact you can indeed ignore everything one doesn’t like.

Or better yet, since elite specs are so powerful, it’s better to require heart of thorns if you really care about the speed of completion. But i haven’t seen that pop up yet. :p

Ayrilana.1396:

reapex.8546:

Ayrilana.1396:

It measures experience within the game.

If by experience, you mean how fast you can do easy achievements or pay to get AP then sure. But then it would not be direct experience with the game.

It experience in the game on a general level as stated in previous posts.

Ah, which doesn’t mean much then since a variety of AP can obtain be without understanding the game.

As there isnt rly any proper way of judging experience, ap is more or less the only way. Its a pretty bad way though, as ive encountered countless 20-30k ap players that were absolutely rubbish.

reapex.8546:

Ayrilana.1396:

reapex.8546:

Ayrilana.1396:

It measures experience within the game.

If by experience, you mean how fast you can do easy achievements or pay to get AP then sure. But then it would not be direct experience with the game.

It experience in the game on a general level as stated in previous posts.

Ah, which doesn’t mean much then since a variety of AP can obtain be without understanding the game.

It does in a broad sense. Keep in mind that this in no way is meaning skill level. Someone who has over 5K experience has likely played a decent amount of the game. Yes, someone can sit there doing easy daily achievements but it’s highly unlikely that that is all they did.

I have seen players with all levels of AP – some not even knowing what agony resistance is – joining on lvl 32 : as it says fotm 32 right?

So we just walk them on over to the agony checker: if boom dead=kick.
Simples they need to learn some more stuff

OtterPaws.2036:

Khisanth.2948:

Danikat.8537:

Even the people who use it know it’s a ridiculous system that doesn’t actually tell them anything except that this person has been in the game longer than a month or so.

Especially considering most achievement points are gained by playing PvE, and often relatively easy PvE like exploring open-world maps and doing the story, or totally unrelated things like jumping puzzles.

If they could they’d be demanding a gear check, or DPS score or whatever else you can judge people on in other games. But they can’t so they settle for what they can judge you on. It’s the “grown up” equivalent of kids whose school brings in a uniform so they can’t judge each other on their clothes, so they judge you on your bag or where you buy your notebook instead.

And yes, even for easy content. You’ll sometimes see the same thing for story mode dungeons.

If you’re not interested in that type of elitist you’re best off just ignoring any party with an AP requirement.

Been in the game for longer than a month is actually not an unreasonable expectation for scale 32 fractal. That requires 29 AR. It takes about a month for 2 rings, 2 accessories and an amulet from pristine relics, laurels and guild commendations. That gives you 25 AR which is still a bit less than 29.

You can get an amulet from both PvP and HoT story achievements. Theres also the potion from the fractal vendor that gives 10 AR. You can also do the mastery track for the mistlock singularity for another 5 which took me a couple weeks after starting to get. Also there’s a large chance to get an attuned ring since you’ll have enough AR to do the 21-50 dailies and you’ll most likely be able to infuse it right away. A month is plenty of time to get enough AR for scale 32.

Incorrect about The Alba Tear potion. It doesnt give you 10 AR. If you have 0-9 AR, it ADJUSTS you to 10 AR. Notice how it says it doesnt stack with other sources of AR?

Ayrilana.1396:

Here’s what I don’t really get. Yes, there are those that create their own LFG with whatever restrictions that they wish. They created the LFG so they are completely free to do this. What I haven’t seen is these players coming onto the forums to chastise players who don’t agree with what they’re doing other than to defend themselves.

What I do see are those that disagree with AP being used as a restriction, which doesn’t even affect them 99% of the time, come onto the forums and belittle them. Who are really the toxic ones here? Those players are not coming into your group demanding all of you to have 5K+ AP or whatever it is that they want. They’re creating their own party for that and those that disagree with it can simply ignore it.

If people start creating restrictions for asura only groups are people going to come on here creating threads/posts about how wrong that is and how toxic those players are for doing so?

I hope they continue to use such requirement, this made me laugh whenever I see one of them. I don’t care much about it but when these people are rude, I’m sorry but these people have to be pointed out for their behavior that no one want in a game.

You can ignore it but I don’t think make a thread about it is called a toxic behavior. You are free to share your own opinion with each others in a respectful manner. I don’t think the OP was rude and toxic at all.

Once I’ve seen an announce, “hot girls only” so I made my own “hot boys only” and it was funny. There was a girl character in my party even so but I didn’t see the point to kick someone because they don’t want to respect my dumb announce. Some people should learn how to play with a community, not with useless rules.

I’ll probably continue to do some dumb announces just for fun, but will never be a requirement.

Khyan.7039:

Snippity snip

That would work if only the community didn’t create a strong desire to push them off a cliff too begin with. Between the rampant entitlism with players believeing that they should have a god given right to a new item without putting any effort towrds it to the pounds of salt shed to try to changes omething when they get beat…..this community…..

Levels don’t mean anything since they dumbed down the system, you can be ran on specific levels that pose little to no risk to players with less than recommended agony level. Hence ap is a better judgememnt option. Although granted yeah every time you sneeze you get a point because "everyone gets a trophy!!!’ you can’t really just fake without spending a good amount of time.

The closer you get to the nonagony/agony line the more likely you will end up with a newer player that doesn’t know what to do. settign a ap limit aides when you don’t really want to carry them every run.

It’s amusing how many chime in with anecdotes of high AP players with low skill levels and low AP players with high skill levels.

You folks do understand that the more you cite exceptions, the more you prove the rule, don’t you?

People kittenort to AP filters for LFG do so probably understanding that it’s not a perfect system, but are just making do with what they can use.

There will always be exceptions. There’ll always be groups that use AP filters that actually are crap and can’t speed run. There’ll always be players that don’t meet the AP requirement who can actually speed run. There’ll always be players that meet the AP requirement who can’t.

All these doesn’t negate the fact that AP filters do work to assemble a team capable of faster runs, most of the time.

If you don’t like it, just make your own LFG and run at your own pace. Unless there’s a more expedient way of determining skill and build available, there’s really no point to continue flogging this dead horse.

Sylum.1806:

It’s amusing how many chime in with anecdotes of high AP players with low skill levels and low AP players with high skill levels.

You folks do understand that the more you cite exceptions, the more you prove the rule, don’t you?

So, you’re saying that the more exceptions there are, the better the rule?
I’m sorry to disappoint you, it doesn’t work that way.

Sylum.1806:

There will always be exceptions. There’ll always be groups that use AP filters that actually are crap and can’t speed run. There’ll always be players that don’t meet the AP requirement who can actually speed run. There’ll always be players that meet the AP requirement who can’t.

All these doesn’t negate the fact that AP filters do work to assemble a team capable of faster runs, most of the time.

In my experience, the time gained by this is on average, less than time wasted on enforcing those requirements.

TPMN.1483:

I have seen players with all levels of AP – some not even knowing what agony resistance is – joining on lvl 32 : as it says fotm 32 right?

So we just walk them on over to the agony checker: if boom dead=kick.
Simples they need to learn some more stuff

This, I agree. AR requirement is fine since it’s a fractal core mechanic. You can do it without but it’s too risky. I understand people that don’t want someone without AR in their party during high fractal levels.

The AR system is here for a reason. You don’t have enough AR? Get some practice with low fractal levels then, and learn how to do them.

AP is bad as requirement. I’ve seen a lot of bad players with 10k+ AP without AR in high levels. It was just a big NOPE for me.

Astralporing.1957:

Sylum.1806:

It’s amusing how many chime in with anecdotes of high AP players with low skill levels and low AP players with high skill levels.

You folks do understand that the more you cite exceptions, the more you prove the rule, don’t you?

So, you’re saying that the more exceptions there are, the better the rule?
I’m sorry to disappoint you, it doesn’t work that way.

Sylum.1806:

There will always be exceptions. There’ll always be groups that use AP filters that actually are crap and can’t speed run. There’ll always be players that don’t meet the AP requirement who can actually speed run. There’ll always be players that meet the AP requirement who can’t.

All these doesn’t negate the fact that AP filters do work to assemble a team capable of faster runs, most of the time.

In my experience, the time gained by this is on average, less than time wasted on enforcing those requirements.

I shan’t dispute with your experience, I believe you have no reason to be dishonest about it, bukittens back to the point I make. Yes, the more they cherry pick exceptions as “evidence” the more it proves the rule. Nobody has yet provided any salient statistics on the distribution of skill level versus AP.

We can debate till we’re blue in the face with claims and counter claims over anecdotal evidence of our personal experiences. The fact is, AP filters work for some, not so much for others, and citing personal encounters of low AP high skill level and high AP low skill levels players without anyone really having a handle the actual numbers is really just a waste of time. You do you and let others be.

Sylum.1806:

…the more they cherry pick exceptions as “evidence” the more it proves the rule. Nobody has yet provided any salient statistics on the distribution of skill level versus AP.
. . .
The fact is, AP filters work for some, not so much for others, and citing personal encounters of low AP high skill level and high AP low skill levels players without anyone really having a handle the actual numbers is really just a waste of time.

That’s still not how science works.
“The notable evidence supports the null hypothesis,” is kind of a way of saying “My theory was wrong” or “I didn’t plan my study well enough.”

Perhaps someone should do a double-blind study for a correlation between overall/average group AP and fractal/dungeon group satisfaction? It’s a much “softer” thing to provide evidence for, and let’s be honest, “skill” is tremendously nebulous without several metrics or rubrics.

You do you and let others be.

Still the best thing that can be said on the topic, science or no.

I’m sitting @ around 16k maybe. I was on my Ranger helping a guildie w/TA for Kudzu. Pug group and we wiped near some wurms. I aggro’ed them with my axe. One guy cries “You would think someone w/10k achiev points would know how to play”. Never set foot in TA before. Never understood how people can gauge skill using AP’s.

I spend 95% of my time in WvW. The other 5% is leveling toons, farming mats or whatever. I don’t play to be a Pro, I play to have fun and enjoy the game and company.

Rauderi.8706:

Sylum.1806:

…the more they cherry pick exceptions as “evidence” the more it proves the rule. Nobody has yet provided any salient statistics on the distribution of skill level versus AP.
. . .
The fact is, AP filters work for some, not so much for others, and citing personal encounters of low AP high skill level and high AP low skill levels players without anyone really having a handle the actual numbers is really just a waste of time.

That’s still not how science works.
“The notable evidence supports the null hypothesis,” is kind of a way of saying “My theory was wrong” or “I didn’t plan my study well enough.”

Perhaps someone should do a double-blind study for a correlation between overall/average group AP and fractal/dungeon group satisfaction? It’s a much “softer” thing to provide evidence for, and let’s be honest, “skill” is tremendously nebulous without several metrics or rubrics.

You do you and let others be.

Still the best thing that can be said on the topic, science or no.

Thank you. I agree with your point, and to add to that, going by your point, my argument no more invalidates their claim as their personal experiences invalidate the utility of the AP filter.

I just want to further clarify my point on “the exception proving the rule” because I see the conversation going NOWHERE between most of the commenters on this thread; and I only want to help advance the conversation in a more productive direction.

An honest reading of all those posts that argue the lack of effectiveness of the AP filter based on the authors’ personal encounters with high AP players of low skill and/or low AP players of high skill will turn up the use of the words “are”, “such”, “some”, “few”, “a”, “one”, “couple”. Nowhere will you find their claims emphatically accompanied by words such as “many”, “all”, and “most”.

This is what I mean by “the more they try to prove the exception, the more they prove the rule”. Because the wording of their experiences imply that the concept of high AP = high skill, low AP = low skill, does still apply often enough if not most of the time.

As for an earlier point made by someone else regarding the time wasted waiting for those who qualify for the AP filter versus the time saved by having these higher AP players,

well, first of all, accepting this premise is a tacit acknowledgement that AP and skill level do have a correlation, and secondly, I am ignorant over whether time is saved or wasted using an AP filter because the data is incomplete. What I do know is that AP and skill level do have a correlation, and you get skilled/experienced players more often than you don’t, when you use an AP filter.

We can all disagree over the necessity of the AP filter, but it seems to me disingenuous to dismiss the correlation between AP and skill.

Sylum.1806:

An honest reading of all those posts that argue the lack of effectiveness of the AP filter based on the authors’ personal encounters with high AP players of low skill and/or low AP players of high skill will turn up the use of the words “are”, “such”, “some”, “few”, “a”, “one”, “couple”. Nowhere will you find their claims emphatically accompanied by words such as “many”, “all”, and “most”.

An interesting justification for the sentiment. I give polite claps to this one.

What I do know is that AP and skill level do have a correlation, and you get skilled/experienced players more often than you don’t, when you use an AP filter.

Without actual data, you feel, not know. Granted, in games, feeling is just as valid as metrics. (<— Hint, FING, HINT, ANet)

The problem with AP-as-metric is in the numerous exceptions of false positives/negatives that come from multiple-account holders or players with high AP from one content mode and dailies and/or easy-peasy holiday events.

So, the correlation between AP and “skill” (which still needs an operational definition) is potentially moderated by “time in game”, which could go in any number of directions. You might as well be asking for /age before every run, and that still doesn’t solve anything for the same reasons as above. I should also mention that just because a correlation exists, it may not bear the statistical power to be useful.

For example, say you define ‘skill’ the group’s run speed on a particular dungeon path. (This is a horrible definition, don’t actually use it.) After tons of testing, and taking the first group that comes along (no AP limits to taint your selection process), you find a significant correlation of -0.35. (Higher AP yields lower dungeon times.) The actual statistical power (~.12) is barely worth bothering with. The example, if true, would actually suggest that it’s better to just run than wait for a ‘perfect’ group.

If I’m against an AP test for any reason, it’s because of sloppy statistical assumptions, not so much on elitist exclusion.

But, I suppose you could request specific titles? The Liadri title, Sunbringer, etc, at least indicate either high skill or the capacity to follow directions.
The Agony test is probably the better indicator for fractals, anyway. It shows enough attention to gear and progression that a person ought to be worth taking.

So, from my understanding of the AP standard defenders,

Anyone below my AP is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
Anyone below my AP require is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
This is based on no actual fact or proof, its just me making something up and claiming it as fact.

And….you wonder why this is mocked?

Serophous.9085:

So, from my understanding of the AP standard defenders,

Anyone below my AP is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
Anyone below my AP require is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
This is based on no actual fact or proof, its just me making something up and claiming it as fact.

And….you wonder why this is mocked?

Let’s look at a job for someone as a secretary.

You’re treating it as if they’re saying it’s an absolute. It’s not.

It’s no different than companies requesting potential employees to have a certain number of years experience. Does it mean that the potential employees will have the skill level to perform the job adequately? No. We’ve seen plenty of people who are terrible at their jobs but still employees. Should companies stop using experience as a filter criteria?

All AP does is allow some players a way to filter players. It measures general experience level with the game but of course it doesn’t measure skill level. Does it affect you? No. Can you create your LFG without any restrictions? Yes.

Serophous.9085:

So, from my understanding of the AP standard defenders,

Anyone below my AP is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
Anyone below my AP require is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
This is based on no actual fact or proof, its just me making something up and claiming it as fact.

And….you wonder why this is mocked?

And from my understanding of the people of people getting offended by groups using the AP standard,

Anyone with an AP above mine is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
Any group that requires an AP that is above mine is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
I saw one exception to make all my base observations on and then proceded to post on the forum which makes it a fact cuz thats how it works.

And… you wonder why don’t want to include you?

ibravitzk.8324:

They mayority of players with more then 20k AP suck as badly as ppl with below 1k AP…

Let’s get this right ..,
The majority of players play poorly we have a bell curve distribution of good players, top 0.1% are leet, 1% are very good.

The AP at least generally indicates experience in days with the game and they are more likely to have some better general knowledge of the game than a player with less than 1K AP.

Thankfully I have > 20K AP and know how to play well enough to complete all content (inc raids)- whilst also guiding many groups what to do in the majority of content in game .

The AP is just used as a general check they understand some basics like what is dodge, melee, range, stack etc – in he hope they have a clue.

Personally I give them a chance those low level AP players if I can see they have geared a toon well (or close enough) to a decent build for the content they are about to try (esp when I want a speedy run).

You know, the majority of SC members has very high AP and they are one of the guilds with highest skills in PvE. AP only tells you one thing: how invested you are to the game.

Rauderi.8706:

The problem with AP-as-metric is in the numerous exceptions of false positives/negatives that come from multiple-account holders or players with high AP from one content mode and dailies and/or easy-peasy holiday events.

Yes, but as you noted, they are still exceptions, even if we were to agree they are numerous. Kinda difficult to substantiate arguments for or against practice of “rule of thumb” based on examples of exceptions

Rauderi.8706:

So, the correlation between AP and “skill” (which still needs an operational definition) is potentially moderated by “time in game”, which could go in any number of directions. You might as well be asking for /age before every run, and that still doesn’t solve anything for the same reasons as above. I should also mention that just because a correlation exists, it may not bear the statistical power to be useful.

Yes, and as I already conceded in the original post, this is not a perfect metric. But with the limited tools and data in the game, this is the best most people can do, or at least within reasonable limits of ascertaining.

Rauderi.8706:

For example, say you define ‘skill’ the group’s run speed on a particular dungeon path. (This is a horrible definition, don’t actually use it.) After tons of testing, and taking the first group that comes along (no AP limits to taint your selection process), you find a significant correlation of -0.35. (Higher AP yields lower dungeon times.) The actual statistical power (~.12) is barely worth bothering with. The example, if true, would actually suggest that it’s better to just run than wait for a ‘perfect’ group.

As stated in my previous post, I’m ignorant with regards to the ACTUAL effectiveness of AP filters on amount of time saved. In the interests of intellectual honesty, I do not have enough information to make an opinion on that.

My proposition is merely: AP has a correlation with skill level/experience most of the time.

Rauderi.8706:

If I’m against an AP test for any reason, it’s because of sloppy statistical assumptions, not so much on elitist exclusion.

But, I suppose you could request specific titles? The Liadri title, Sunbringer, etc, at least indicate either high skill or the capacity to follow directions.
The Agony test is probably the better indicator for fractals, anyway. It shows enough attention to gear and progression that a person ought to be worth taking.

I think this is great, that your opposition is based on something that’s more rational. I agree that AP is a poor metric that makes for sloppy assumptions. Unfortunately, it’s the most salient we’ve got, when weighed against the effort required for other means of more accurately obtaining information.

I think you’re taking the discussion in the right direction: How can we come up with better metrics that can be practiced with reasonable amount of effort. The bashing and defense of AP is a complete waste of time and just a bait for kitten. It’s safe to assume there are better ways of measuring skill and experience. Our time will be better spent exploring those possibilities instead.

But it isn’t the only metric to judge a person’s skill. If you hover over the fractals of the mist categories, you can see everyone’s personal fractal level in the group. This makes checking for ap a complete waste of time when you can literally check how far someone has progressed through fractals. But hey, if people want to take the idiot approach, by all means let them waste their time.

I agree that AP is not a bellwether for competence. At best, it represents time in game, and that in no way guarantees either skill or knowledge of the various fractals.

That said, what business is it of others what criteria these people use? There’s got to be an “ought” there, as in, “They ought to take anyone.” Would it be nice if they did? Sure. However, they are in no way obligated to.

Calling them “toxic” for having a preference is a bald attempt to shame them into doing what the poster thinks they ought to. I respect the opinions of people that being inclusive is “better.” I also respect the desire of someone to play with those he prefers to. I do not respect either if they are being judgmental and disrespectful about their preferences.

reikken.4961:

if anyone has an AP requirement in their LFG, they are probably bad at the game, since they need everyone else in the party to be good to make up for it. So I never join them, except maybe to laugh at them and then leave party. Plus it’s only like 1% of LFG ads, so you don’t miss out on much.

My sentiments precisely. If the lfg says “All welcome”(mostly used in dungeons) it most likely means that the ppl in that party are so confident in their own skill that they can carry anyone through the run. Probably the most ridiculous thing I have seen is “lvl 2, experienced zerk only / gearcheck”, that is basically asking to be carried through lvl 2 fractal…

The best way to get daily med/high level fractals done with low AR is to make sure that the others can carry you. Was once carried by guildies, 30k agony ticks were so fun

On a little sidenote, I have noticed that the more swag somene has in pvp the more likely they are to be awful at pvp and just doing dailies. More swag = more time spent in pve = less time spent in pvp.

Iris Ng.9845:

You know, the majority of SC members has very high AP and they are one of the guilds with highest skills in PvE. AP only tells you one thing: how invested you are to the game.

It tells you how much you are invested in all areas of the game.
If you just do dungeons/fractals/occasional SW you end up with 3-4k ap and no progression at all, even tho you might have completed dungeon master 1500 times.
The people that have high AP usually farmed LS and dailies

Ayrilana.1396:

It’s no different than companies requesting potential employees to have a certain number of years experience. Does it mean that the potential employees will have the skill level to perform the job adequately? No. We’ve seen plenty of people who are terrible at their jobs but still employees. Should companies stop using experience as a filter criteria?

All AP does is allow some players a way to filter players. It measures general experience level with the game but of course it doesn’t measure skill level. Does it affect you? No. Can you create your LFG without any restrictions? Yes.

Great post. This is probably the best explanation for AP requirements that I’ve ever read.

Ayrilana.1396:

It’s no different than companies requesting potential employees to have a certain number of years experience. Does it mean that the potential employees will have the skill level to perform the job adequately? No. We’ve seen plenty of people who are terrible at their jobs but still employees. Should companies stop using experience as a filter criteria?

Ah, you’re omitting one really important point here. Said companies practically never ask for work experience in general. What they ask is for work experience in a related job. When the company is looking for a secretary, 10 years work experience as a janitor will not only not help you getting the job, it will most likely work against you.

Filtering by AP is exactly like asking for such general work experience.

echo.2053:

And from my understanding of the people of people getting offended by groups using the AP standard,

Anyone with an AP above mine is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
Any group that requires an AP that is above mine is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.

You know, I’m very unlikely to ever see AP filters high enough to exclude me. Besides, it’s not a matter of being offended by them – i do recognize that everyone has a right to make as stupid LFG requirements as they wish, and that, regardless of those requirements, people joining such group should adhere to them. I just find the usefulness of this one to be hightly doubtful.

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

It’s no different than companies requesting potential employees to have a certain number of years experience. Does it mean that the potential employees will have the skill level to perform the job adequately? No. We’ve seen plenty of people who are terrible at their jobs but still employees. Should companies stop using experience as a filter criteria?

Ah, you’re omitting one really important point here. Said companies practically never ask for work experience in general. What they ask is for work experience in a related job. When the company is looking for a secretary, 10 years work experience as a janitor will not only not help you getting the job, it will most likely work against you.

Filtering by AP is exactly like asking for such general work experience.
.

It doesn’t matter. I can be an accountant for years. Does that in any way mean that I’m skilled or competent? You would hope so but it’s not a guarantee. The same can be said about AP. You would hope that someone with a certain level of AP has some competency and skill but it doesn’t guarantee it. All that requirement does is show you have a general level of experience whether than be with the game or at a particular job.

Having 10 years of experience as a janitor and applying for a job that requires 10 years of experience as a secretary was nowhere near what I was saying. All experience that a player gains while playing the game at the general level can be applied towards group content as group content just builds upon that foundation.

My guess is that they were frustrated with getting players who didn’t have the AR for that level or didn’t even want to deal with the “issue” of constantly having to res someone. People can do what they want, of course. What they don’t realize though is that when they put requirements on content like that while they are pugging, and are not patient enough to play along side newer players, they are slowly but surely letting the opportunity to help the community grow slip away from them.

There are a lot of people cut away from the chance of getting more cash and ascended items because of these silly AP requirements. I’ve yet to see such a group ask if the player wants an explanation of how the content works before they kick them. And even if the player can’t play the game at a top-tier level, who cares? There’s a good possibility that one will pug with one or two other confident players, and the new player can get carried. You make progress, they make progress, the community wins.

Honestly, there aren’t many groups with requirements for fractals at all. I haven’t seen a single one since the update and I do all three tiers of fractals basically everyday. Most just list the fractal levels they intend to run. AP and build requirements were far more common for dungeons.

Ayrilana.1396:

Serophous.9085:

So, from my understanding of the AP standard defenders,

Anyone below my AP is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
Anyone below my AP require is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
This is based on no actual fact or proof, its just me making something up and claiming it as fact.

And….you wonder why this is mocked?

Let’s look at a job for someone as a secretary.

You’re treating it as if they’re saying it’s an absolute. It’s not.

It’s no different than companies requesting potential employees to have a certain number of years experience. Does it mean that the potential employees will have the skill level to perform the job adequately? No. We’ve seen plenty of people who are terrible at their jobs but still employees. Should companies stop using experience as a filter criteria?

All AP does is allow some players a way to filter players. It measures general experience level with the game but of course it doesn’t measure skill level. Does it affect you? No. Can you create your LFG without any restrictions? Yes.

Just for pointed out, I have only 6k AP, but my play time is really high, I have done pretty much all the content and my account have 3 years.

I just don’t care about dailies, I rarely do them.

When you said “It measures general experience level with the game” this is somewhat true but not totally. Some of the time when players get 10k+ AP it’s from dailies, dailies are repetitive and doesn’t gives any relevant experience from the game. Oh and if you played Guild Wars 1, you get some free AP without knowing how to play the game.

Some people just log on and do their dailies. They play like 1 hour per day. Their play time is low ut they have like 10k AP.

AP is not good at measuring play time nor is for relevant experience.

Khyan.7039:

Ayrilana.1396:

Serophous.9085:

So, from my understanding of the AP standard defenders,

Anyone below my AP is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
Anyone below my AP require is a scrub and doesn’t know how to play the game.
This is based on no actual fact or proof, its just me making something up and claiming it as fact.

And….you wonder why this is mocked?

Let’s look at a job for someone as a secretary.

You’re treating it as if they’re saying it’s an absolute. It’s not.

It’s no different than companies requesting potential employees to have a certain number of years experience. Does it mean that the potential employees will have the skill level to perform the job adequately? No. We’ve seen plenty of people who are terrible at their jobs but still employees. Should companies stop using experience as a filter criteria?

All AP does is allow some players a way to filter players. It measures general experience level with the game but of course it doesn’t measure skill level. Does it affect you? No. Can you create your LFG without any restrictions? Yes.

Just for pointed out, I have only 6k AP, but my play time is really high, I have done pretty much all the content and my account have 3 years.

I just don’t care about dailies, I rarely do them.

When you said “It measures general experience level with the game” this is somewhat true but not totally. Some of the time when players get 10k+ AP it’s from dailies, dailies are repetitive and doesn’t gives any relevant experience from the game. Oh and if you played Guild Wars 1, you get some free AP without knowing how to play the game.

Some people just log on and do their dailies. They play like 1 hour per day. Their play time is low ut they have like 10k AP.

AP is not good at measuring play time nor is for relevant experience.

Just because it is not perfect, doesn’t mean that it cannot be used. I can find exceptions to anything but those exceptions are just that; exceptions.

ibravitzk.8324:

Iris Ng.9845:

You know, the majority of SC members has very high AP and they are one of the guilds with highest skills in PvE. AP only tells you one thing: how invested you are to the game.

Wrong it shows just how much noninstanced content person plays…. It shows that he plays alot of OpenWorld PvE what is the content with the lowest skill required.

In a way, AP doesn’t show you how much instanced content the person plays either.

For one good example: a good friend of mine, Jerem, 28,589 AP, was one of the leaders of Snow Crows. He is a daily farmer, achievement addicts kittenorts to PvP just enough to get the Champion titles that he needs. He has all other Edge of the Mist achievements – the most boring thing in this world I disgust. He did enough map completion to build up 12 legendary weapons. At a glance, he looks like a dirtiest casual chinese farmer. BUT, he is the one of the best mesmers in EU. He was in at least 80% of SC dungeon records. He was in one of the earliest raid teams that cleared the wing. AND, he got that AP number 5 months ago – currently MIA.

At the same time, the number of mastery doesn’t guarantee a player is good or bad. AP or Mastery just shows how dedicated a player is, or how much they play in different aspects of the game. That said, they are still a much more interesting conversation starter than a low AP player.

Ayrilana.1396:

reapex.8546:

Ayrilana.1396:

reapex.8546:

Ayrilana.1396:

It measures experience within the game.

If by experience, you mean how fast you can do easy achievements or pay to get AP then sure. But then it would not be direct experience with the game.

It experience in the game on a general level as stated in previous posts.

Ah, which doesn’t mean much then since a variety of AP can obtain be without understanding the game.

It does in a broad sense. Keep in mind that this in no way is meaning skill level. Someone who has over 5K experience has likely played a decent amount of the game. Yes, someone can sit there doing easy daily achievements but it’s highly unlikely that that is all they did.

Not just daily but there are many achievements players get without even thinking and those that are paid for.

I’ve been playing this game for about 3 years and have 9K AP- which, admittedly, is NOT a lot at ALL for 3 years. AP is a USELESS requirement to base a judgement of skill off. I have 9K AP because I could care less about farming AP. Some people who have played this game for a year have 10K because they farm it. And yet, this person could never have stepped in a fractal before, but because his AP is so high he -must- be skilled, right? Of course it doesn’t work that way. AP is zero measure of skill. Honestly, just put “experienced” up next to the fractal number in LFG. While you might get you a few trolls, I’m quite certain this would be a better method of getting good players than high AP.

reapex.8546:

Ayrilana.1396:

reapex.8546:

Ayrilana.1396:

reapex.8546:

Ayrilana.1396:

It measures experience within the game.

If by experience, you mean how fast you can do easy achievements or pay to get AP then sure. But then it would not be direct experience with the game.

It experience in the game on a general level as stated in previous posts.

Ah, which doesn’t mean much then since a variety of AP can obtain be without understanding the game.

It does in a broad sense. Keep in mind that this in no way is meaning skill level. Someone who has over 5K experience has likely played a decent amount of the game. Yes, someone can sit there doing easy daily achievements but it’s highly unlikely that that is all they did.

Not just daily but there are many achievements players get without even thinking and those that are paid for.

Yes but not enough for 5K+. To get that many you’d have to play the game for some time and you would have gathered the basic skills of the game at that point. Yes, some could do it strictly by doing only dailies and not playing the game at all other than that. Those are exceptions and far from the norm.