A GENIUS's Suggestions for PVE Balance Fixes
So much talk about hardcore player. If you are a hardcore player, you might be playing the wrong game.
I actually think the balance is pretty good. Think about it, if you can shoot from 1500 range, it make sense you do less dmg, since the closer you are the more damage you take. And if you can heal like crazy make sense you do less dmg.
The truth? I think the combat system is bad(for group pve), and basically the dungeon content is lackster. I don’t think the dev put alot of though on how the combat system and dungeon should work together. The combat system revolve more around “play style” than “how they should work in a group”.
You take away trinity and people is still doing the trinity. The combat system revolve around this action combat thing which never really works. And those sub par class are all those hybrid. And you never really need to balance range dps vs melee dps in other game since if your tank is dead in other game, the range is dead too. In this game players are rewarded much more for fighting up close since they are more in danger. In other game dps melee have tank to take the damage for them so they are not rewarded for more.
But the reality is I don’t really care about balance. Unless you care so much about speed run. I think it is just culture of the game. People care so much about time vs reward in GW2. In other game people focus on “killing the boss”, that’s it.
(edited by laokoko.7403)
The truth? I think the combat system is bad(for group pve), and basically the dungeon content is lackster. I don’t think the dev put alot of though on how the combat system and dungeon should work together. The combat system revolve more around “play style” than “how they should work in a group”.
And you never really need to balance range dps vs melee dps in other game since if your tank is dead in other game, the range is dead too. In this game players are rewarded much more for fighting up close since they are more in danger. In other game dps melee have tank to take the damage for them so they are not rewarded for more.
But the reality is I don’t really care about balance. Unless you care so much about speed run. I think it is just culture of the game. People care so much about time vs reward in GW2. In other game people focus on “killing the boss”, that’s it.
Agreed !
I do not care about about the reward/time equation. But I do care about the safe/fast equation in fights. At the moment Safe and Fast are equal in most PvE parts, and dungeons in particular. The OP put forward a solution to diminish the Fast part (removing might from warriors mean they will output less DPS). Even with less DPS I still think the 4War+1XXX will be above most groups in terms of Safe and Fast.
I am not a hardcore player, I am more of a “hardcore casual”. And I have tried out various contents with different team compositions with my friends. We started out with high survivability and low damage (PVT lots of utility) in dungeons, and now we have moved to high damage and low survivability (Zerker no utility). Overall we perform much better, we have certainly improved our skills, but we all feel like going back to the what we think is “Safe” would only make everything much harder and more dangerous.
This is what I am really against, at the moment there are no real roles in a team that would make it perform better. No roles like boon-producer,condition-mancer, disrupt master, blind spammers are very demanded in the dungeon meta.
Again as the OP stated some professions are able to do too much with too little effort in PvE which is bad for a PvE balance (well known teams clearing all dungeons with almost the same team composition means there is a problem, especially when you have 3 to 4 people of the same profession).
The dungeon fights not being a real challenge compared to PvP fights and not containing enough diversity of extreme situations will also discourage team variety.
Give us enemies that have a damage reduction cap unless they are chilled or burning or stunned or have a high regen for which we will require poison. Give us enemies with high armor and low HP, give us really fast attacking mobs with low damage retaliation and confusion mancers will be happy. Give us fast moving enemies jumping in and out of the fight and killing us at range. Give us a variety of all of this in the same fight and we may see a change in the meta.
Stop it with enemies sitting on the same spot thinking that shooting arrows non stop on a reflection wall is a good idea.
Melee should deal more damage than ranged, sure, but that isn’t the issue. The issue is that most professions have no possibility at all to deal good damage, even when meleeing.
The truth? I think the combat system is bad(for group pve), and basically the dungeon content is lackster. I don’t think the dev put alot of though on how the combat system and dungeon should work together. The combat system revolve more around “play style” than “how they should work in a group”.
And you never really need to balance range dps vs melee dps in other game since if your tank is dead in other game, the range is dead too. In this game players are rewarded much more for fighting up close since they are more in danger. In other game dps melee have tank to take the damage for them so they are not rewarded for more.
But the reality is I don’t really care about balance. Unless you care so much about speed run. I think it is just culture of the game. People care so much about time vs reward in GW2. In other game people focus on “killing the boss”, that’s it.
Agreed !
I do not care about about the reward/time equation. But I do care about the safe/fast equation in fights. At the moment Safe and Fast are equal in most PvE parts, and dungeons in particular. The OP put forward a solution to diminish the Fast part (removing might from warriors mean they will output less DPS). Even with less DPS I still think the 4War+1XXX will be above most groups in terms of Safe and Fast.I am not a hardcore player, I am more of a “hardcore casual”. And I have tried out various contents with different team compositions with my friends. We started out with high survivability and low damage (PVT lots of utility) in dungeons, and now we have moved to high damage and low survivability (Zerker no utility). Overall we perform much better, we have certainly improved our skills, but we all feel like going back to the what we think is “Safe” would only make everything much harder and more dangerous.
This is what I am really against, at the moment there are no real roles in a team that would make it perform better. No roles like boon-producer,condition-mancer, disrupt master, blind spammers are very demanded in the dungeon meta.
Again as the OP stated some professions are able to do too much with too little effort in PvE which is bad for a PvE balance (well known teams clearing all dungeons with almost the same team composition means there is a problem, especially when you have 3 to 4 people of the same profession).
The dungeon fights not being a real challenge compared to PvP fights and not containing enough diversity of extreme situations will also discourage team variety.Give us enemies that have a damage reduction cap unless they are chilled or burning or stunned or have a high regen for which we will require poison. Give us enemies with high armor and low HP, give us really fast attacking mobs with low damage retaliation and confusion mancers will be happy. Give us fast moving enemies jumping in and out of the fight and killing us at range. Give us a variety of all of this in the same fight and we may see a change in the meta.
Stop it with enemies sitting on the same spot thinking that shooting arrows non stop on a reflection wall is a good idea.
/won the thread
The truth? I think the combat system is bad(for group pve), and basically the dungeon content is lackster. I don’t think the dev put alot of though on how the combat system and dungeon should work together. The combat system revolve more around “play style” than “how they should work in a group”.
And you never really need to balance range dps vs melee dps in other game since if your tank is dead in other game, the range is dead too. In this game players are rewarded much more for fighting up close since they are more in danger. In other game dps melee have tank to take the damage for them so they are not rewarded for more.
But the reality is I don’t really care about balance. Unless you care so much about speed run. I think it is just culture of the game. People care so much about time vs reward in GW2. In other game people focus on “killing the boss”, that’s it.
Agreed !
I do not care about about the reward/time equation. But I do care about the safe/fast equation in fights. At the moment Safe and Fast are equal in most PvE parts, and dungeons in particular. The OP put forward a solution to diminish the Fast part (removing might from warriors mean they will output less DPS). Even with less DPS I still think the 4War+1XXX will be above most groups in terms of Safe and Fast.I am not a hardcore player, I am more of a “hardcore casual”. And I have tried out various contents with different team compositions with my friends. We started out with high survivability and low damage (PVT lots of utility) in dungeons, and now we have moved to high damage and low survivability (Zerker no utility). Overall we perform much better, we have certainly improved our skills, but we all feel like going back to the what we think is “Safe” would only make everything much harder and more dangerous.
This is what I am really against, at the moment there are no real roles in a team that would make it perform better. No roles like boon-producer,condition-mancer, disrupt master, blind spammers are very demanded in the dungeon meta.
Again as the OP stated some professions are able to do too much with too little effort in PvE which is bad for a PvE balance (well known teams clearing all dungeons with almost the same team composition means there is a problem, especially when you have 3 to 4 people of the same profession).
The dungeon fights not being a real challenge compared to PvP fights and not containing enough diversity of extreme situations will also discourage team variety.Give us enemies that have a damage reduction cap unless they are chilled or burning or stunned or have a high regen for which we will require poison. Give us enemies with high armor and low HP, give us really fast attacking mobs with low damage retaliation and confusion mancers will be happy. Give us fast moving enemies jumping in and out of the fight and killing us at range. Give us a variety of all of this in the same fight and we may see a change in the meta.
Stop it with enemies sitting on the same spot thinking that shooting arrows non stop on a reflection wall is a good idea.
+1
We’ll have to wait and see if they actually can script better encounters that benefit those who vary group builds. The emphasis for them is currently “This dungeon is kitten. Let’s ramp up the damage/increase mob count/give minor mobs questionable skills, and prolong the battle”
I always feel the changes, for the standard dungeons at least, it isn’t about making it fun, or varied for all classes. It’s about stopping you from running it in 10 mins.
The truth? I think the combat system is bad(for group pve), and basically the dungeon content is lackster. I don’t think the dev put alot of though on how the combat system and dungeon should work together. The combat system revolve more around “play style” than “how they should work in a group”.
And you never really need to balance range dps vs melee dps in other game since if your tank is dead in other game, the range is dead too. In this game players are rewarded much more for fighting up close since they are more in danger. In other game dps melee have tank to take the damage for them so they are not rewarded for more.
But the reality is I don’t really care about balance. Unless you care so much about speed run. I think it is just culture of the game. People care so much about time vs reward in GW2. In other game people focus on “killing the boss”, that’s it.
Agreed !
I do not care about about the reward/time equation. But I do care about the safe/fast equation in fights. At the moment Safe and Fast are equal in most PvE parts, and dungeons in particular. The OP put forward a solution to diminish the Fast part (removing might from warriors mean they will output less DPS). Even with less DPS I still think the 4War+1XXX will be above most groups in terms of Safe and Fast.I am not a hardcore player, I am more of a “hardcore casual”. And I have tried out various contents with different team compositions with my friends. We started out with high survivability and low damage (PVT lots of utility) in dungeons, and now we have moved to high damage and low survivability (Zerker no utility). Overall we perform much better, we have certainly improved our skills, but we all feel like going back to the what we think is “Safe” would only make everything much harder and more dangerous.
This is what I am really against, at the moment there are no real roles in a team that would make it perform better. No roles like boon-producer,condition-mancer, disrupt master, blind spammers are very demanded in the dungeon meta.
Again as the OP stated some professions are able to do too much with too little effort in PvE which is bad for a PvE balance (well known teams clearing all dungeons with almost the same team composition means there is a problem, especially when you have 3 to 4 people of the same profession).
The dungeon fights not being a real challenge compared to PvP fights and not containing enough diversity of extreme situations will also discourage team variety.Give us enemies that have a damage reduction cap unless they are chilled or burning or stunned or have a high regen for which we will require poison. Give us enemies with high armor and low HP, give us really fast attacking mobs with low damage retaliation and confusion mancers will be happy. Give us fast moving enemies jumping in and out of the fight and killing us at range. Give us a variety of all of this in the same fight and we may see a change in the meta.
Stop it with enemies sitting on the same spot thinking that shooting arrows non stop on a reflection wall is a good idea.
+1
We’ll have to wait and see if they actually can script better encounters that benefit those who vary group builds. The emphasis for them is currently “This dungeon is kitten. Let’s ramp up the damage/increase mob count/give minor mobs questionable skills, and prolong the battle”
I always feel the changes, for the standard dungeons at least, it isn’t about making it fun, or varied for all classes. It’s about stopping you from running it in 10 mins.
I think all these posts saying “Anet needs to change the encounters, not the classes” are failing to realize that in just about any imaginable content, these group compositions will be ideal. It is highly versatile, and has all major buffs and utilities covered.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/84416-guide-minmax-dungeon-groups-with-any-class-composition/
Any other GENIUS’s suggestion that i can laugh about this much? You can’t be serious, are you?
Edit: I think you should delete that Engi and create warriors, after 8 months you have to know broken from OP class (PvE)
@Sovta : thanks for bringing up so many arguments ! #Sarcasm
@Hamartia : warriors can bring a lot I guess, because they have access to many weapons with different effects and they have a nice boon/condition coverage. But they do not bring everything ! And yes I still firmly believe that changing content can buff variety. One simple example : add a monster which can only suffer direct damage while chilled, and while chilled becomes rock solid with a hardcap on direct damage. Warriors have no access to chill apart from runes/sigil. You will need either a ranger/necromancer/elementalist/engineer to get rid of such a foe.
Of course if you only put this kind of monster in a dungeon it will become boring and tedious. Zerker warriors would become useless which is a pity, they really have an important place in a team : high burst damage.
Now place the monster in an encounter with different types of enemies and the fight strategy/meta changes.
No it just forces more class requirements thakittens the first thing to avoid…
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
Yes you are right. It is a bad solution overall if people are forced to integrate classes to manage content. So I guess the compromise would be if you want to force a condition in a dungeon you have to give an access to it as an environmental weapon or use a trigger.
If we just downgrade my previous example to this : a monster which has a low hardcap (3 000) on direct damage while chilled, and while chilled with a high hardcap (20 000) on direct damage. Would that be a better compromise ?
Anyway I am just a player throwing random ideas, but maybe from this mess a dev will find an interesting mechanic to improve build diversity.
@Hamartia : warriors can bring a lot I guess, because they have access to many weapons with different effects and they have a nice boon/condition coverage. But they do not bring everything !
But bring the mesmer and guardian and you suddenly have everything. Group stability, regen, aegis, best crowd control of the game, blind, immobilizes.. W/G/M has everything. Changing the dungeon content is not going to make that group set up worse.
One simple example : add a monster which can only suffer direct damage while chilled, and while chilled becomes rock solid with a hardcap on direct damage. Warriors have no access to chill apart from runes/sigil
Could probably just make do with a secondary set of weapon for that type of encounter. No big deal again. Hell, the ghost pepper popper could probably work decently if all 5 in the party used it in dungeons that are considered night time. It has a 1 second internal cooldown and has 40% chance of giving chill on crit.
Ok…well I tried !
@Hamartia : warriors can bring a lot I guess, because they have access to many weapons with different effects and they have a nice boon/condition coverage. But they do not bring everything !
But bring the mesmer and guardian and you suddenly have everything. Group stability, regen, aegis, best crowd control of the game, blind, immobilizes.. W/G/M has everything. Changing the dungeon content is not going to make that group set up worse.
One simple example : add a monster which can only suffer direct damage while chilled, and while chilled becomes rock solid with a hardcap on direct damage. Warriors have no access to chill apart from runes/sigil
Could probably just make do with a secondary set of weapon for that type of encounter. No big deal again. Hell, the ghost pepper popper could probably work decently if all 5 in the party used it in dungeons that are considered night time. It has a 1 second internal cooldown and has 40% chance of giving chill on crit.
Ok…well I tried !
That’s the problem. We can’t pretend that new dungeons are going to fix this. The issue is class balance and the fix is nerfs.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/84416-guide-minmax-dungeon-groups-with-any-class-composition/
The issue with PvE balance has less to do with classes and more to do with the environment.
1) Most damage in PvE is largely avoidable with dodges, which means that healing and defensive support is often not entirely needed and serves more as a crutch to groups who are new to content. If players were to take more small bits of unavoidable damage, then there would be a need for healing and support-based characters, even with experienced groups.
2) Support options often have a small effect on output and a dps-oriented character can generally bring enough support without having to sacrifice dps. Because of this, there isn’t much need for people to bring support-focused builds, even if they aren’t entirely defensive support builds.
You must not do dungeons at all, because you NEVER have pets doing any sort of damage once a boss starts attacking.
Sorry, but that’s complete bullkitten. I’m no hardcore ranger, but I’ve been playing the ranger class since a few months ago and I got no problem at all to keep my pet alive during a dungeon. If your pet is dying, then you are not controlling it well.
However, I do agree that rangers overall feel ill-suited for dungeons. The damage is as said not at high as the warrior or even the support guardian, so it just makes me sad that whenever I’m searching for a group, people mostly want warrior/guardian/mesmer. It’s not how the game should be played, forcing you into playing a class that you don’t enjoy.
“Fine, go with your guildies instead”. Yes, that’s true. But you can’t go with your guildies everytime depending on the situation. So I hope that Anet changes something, because it’s really tiresome to hear from everyone that ranger is a kittenty class.
Whats so hard realizing that this is a profession balance issue and isn’t caused by the content?
And still no devs feedback about PvE balance :/
I wonder if they consider current PvE state of the game a priority….
Its really messed up…..if this game was to be released today with current PvE unbalance it would really had bad reviews….
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
And still no devs feedback about PvE balance :/
I wonder if they consider current PvE state of the game a priority….
Its really messed up…..if this game was to be released today with current PvE unbalance it would really had bad reviews….
Well it was released this way
Not much balance going on, just nerfed already bad classes.
I am still not convinced about this being a “simple” profession balance issue. Warriors have never been great in PvP but have always ruled in PvE.
I can’t say the same for Mesmers or Guardians, they do really well in all content.
@hikari…
Its almost impossible with current technology to have a decent AI in a mmorpg…
It may be related to the dungeon design and stuff…but those things CAN T be fixed except for few tweaks like lowering defiant stacks….
They should for sure start explaining few things like why they nerfed swirling wind in PvE last patch…… that made guardian even more mandatory.
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
For sure, AI is a real complex problem and I suppose we won’t see a real change on AI before “soon” or “when it is ready”.
I guess they will have to do a skill split on many skills if they want to upgrade the different classes in PvE. But I guess it will also put out a higher entry level for PvP, so the devs are kind of postponing as much as possible these changes.
Edit : what bugs me also is that condition damage is capped in ALL content (number of stacks) and direct damage is not. Seems totally unfair for some classes…
(edited by HikariNoTen.1402)
For sure, AI is a real complex problem and I suppose we won’t see a real change on AI before “soon” or “when it is ready”.
I guess they will have to do a skill split on many skills if they want to upgrade the different classes in PvE. But I guess it will also put out a higher entry level for PvP, so the devs are kind of postponing as much as possible these changes.Edit : what bugs me also is that condition damage is capped in ALL content (number of stacks) and direct damage is not. Seems totally unfair for some classes…
If conditions didn’t suck I imagine some classes in rampagers gear could offer really competitive DPS.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/84416-guide-minmax-dungeon-groups-with-any-class-composition/
I would add a boss or two in many dungeons that have a constant aura around them that ticks away at your health which is mitigated only by toughness, so your team would NEED healing/regen type supports at least to survive and the more glass cannons in the team, the more support would be required.
Example a full berzerker geared character would take enough damage that heal skill alone and a few dodges would not be enough alone to outpace the damage from the aura (but a maxed toughness guy would break about even or close) but good support with regen, or engineer/guardian/elementalist type healing builds would make up for zerker shortfall in toughness to allow them to survive.
Then you will want a few encounters here and there which CANNOT be melee’d and some others that cannot be ranged, or immune to certain damage types. Enough variety that one specific team will not be the best at everything
(edited by Ainianu.5693)
It is not a content issue.
It is not a content issue.
It is not a content issue.
I would add a boss or two in many dungeons that have a constant aura around them that ticks away at your health which is mitigated only by toughness, so your team would NEED healing/regen type supports at least to survive and the more glass cannons in the team, the more support would be required.
Example a full berzerker geared character would take enough damage that heal skill alone and a few dodges would not be enough alone to outpace the damage from the aura (but a maxed toughness guy would break about even or close) but good support with regen, or engineer/guardian/elementalist type healing builds would make up for zerker shortfall in toughness to allow them to survive.
Then you will want a few encounters here and there which CANNOT be melee’d and some others that cannot be ranged, or immune to certain damage types. Enough variety that one specific team will not be the best at everything
Hmm, then meele zerk warrios can just switch to ranged weapon or their secondary toughness gear simple.
split PVP and PVE.
for all:
they just have to tone down the precision +crit damage synergy – on server side.
i.e: ~1800 precision should be around 30% crit chance and not 70 (before fury)
for PVE
make CC conditions viable:
- double the base duration of all non damaging conditions in PVE (chill, cripple, immobilize, blind, stun, daze etc).
let conditions and heals to proc crits from precision.
Lol. That would make warriors even stronger in comparison to other professions.
Highest Vitality+Highest DPS+Highest armor class = balanced class?
The only reason this class hasn’t been nerfed to the ground is that it is to clunky in spvp. But in pve because mobs won’t move, they can spam 2 to victory. Hell the only way ele can get past their damage output is to glitch their fiery greatsword skill. Generally, they need to use their pvp/pve split more here, nerf the pve warrior, while buffing pvp warriors.
Lol. That would make warriors even stronger in comparison to other professions.
That’s why this topic has so many ingenious ideas.
Thanks Haviz
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/84416-guide-minmax-dungeon-groups-with-any-class-composition/
Adding onto Hamatia’s post:
1.) Warriors:
Nerf shouts (raise their cooldowns so they HAVE to trait into having lower cds), buff stances. Lower Endure Pain’s cooldown to 60 sec., give Frenzy a six second stability boon to go alongside the Frenzy and Haste boons. “Shake It Off!” now gives 7 sec. of protection, but only to the person who used the shout, so that the shout itself is still good but not TOO good.
2.) Mesmers:
For Engineers to have a portal gun, call it the “Matter Displacement Gun” or something. Long cooldown just like Portal, functionally acts the same. For Feedback, give Eles something like “Zephyr Shield” or “Aqua Barrier” that functionally does the same thing. The biggest problem is that Mesmers provide a LOOOT of utility that no other class can bring to the table in the same way a Mesmer can. Hell, make the MDG something like Asuran or hybrid Asura-Charr technology, even, if you wanna keep it lore friendly.
3.) Guardians:
Eh…I don’t really know, perhaps buff Hammer and other weapons, nerf GS? It’s hard to balance Guardians because you don’t want to nerf them to the point of “thiskillstheguardian.jpg” but you also don’t want to let them run their offensive support rampage. Hmm…
Honestly, the answer is really simple here: buff the other classes. That’s it. The problem in the end isn’t that these guys are too good (though it’s still a problem in and of itself), the problem is that the others simply can’t match up with what they have. So, instead of bringing these three down, why not also bring up Rangers and Necros and Thieves? Why be afraid of these guys, devs?
(currently leveling: a Mesmer, an Engineer, and a Guardian)