Guild Wars 2

Malediktus.9250:

katz.8376:

Manimarco Devil.1790:

People are so lazy they can’t even be asked to play the game to progress in a different part of it.

i’d really like and appreciate it if you’d quit insulting me (and others like me) because i dislike a certain aspect of the game and would prefer to play to have fun.

Considering that dungeons, fractals and raids are less than 5% it sounds like you dislike 95% of the game and I dont think Anet needs to cater to people who like less than 10% of the game

lolwut? i’ve said i dislike raids. i’ve said i dislike HoT maps. i’ve said i prefer WvW. i’ve never said i dislike dungeons or fractals. or PvP. or non HoT open world content. or world bosses. or seasonal events.

try again.

This seems like a trivial requirement at this point, but should add interesting new mechanics. Looking forward to seeing what they will do with this. I’m hoping we drop bombs on the boss from above to strip off some sort of armor or something.

This is the final wing to the raid with the final boss. It should be mechanically challenging and require everything we’ve learned from HoT to bring it down. This requirement makes sense from a story perspective, a mechanics perspective, and a progression perspective. Anet seems to be doing everything right for once.

katz.8376:

Malediktus.9250:

katz.8376:

Manimarco Devil.1790:

People are so lazy they can’t even be asked to play the game to progress in a different part of it.

i’d really like and appreciate it if you’d quit insulting me (and others like me) because i dislike a certain aspect of the game and would prefer to play to have fun.

Considering that dungeons, fractals and raids are less than 5% it sounds like you dislike 95% of the game and I dont think Anet needs to cater to people who like less than 10% of the game

lolwut? i’ve said i dislike raids. i’ve said i dislike HoT maps. i’ve said i prefer WvW. i’ve never said i dislike dungeons or fractals. or PvP. or non HoT open world content. or world bosses. or seasonal events.

try again.

You don’t like raids at all and post in this thread? Now i wonder why you even read it…

Tornupto.2304:

katz.8376:

Malediktus.9250:

katz.8376:

Manimarco Devil.1790:

People are so lazy they can’t even be asked to play the game to progress in a different part of it.

i’d really like and appreciate it if you’d quit insulting me (and others like me) because i dislike a certain aspect of the game and would prefer to play to have fun.

Considering that dungeons, fractals and raids are less than 5% it sounds like you dislike 95% of the game and I dont think Anet needs to cater to people who like less than 10% of the game

lolwut? i’ve said i dislike raids. i’ve said i dislike HoT maps. i’ve said i prefer WvW. i’ve never said i dislike dungeons or fractals. or PvP. or non HoT open world content. or world bosses. or seasonal events.

try again.

You don’t like raids at all and post in this thread? Now i wonder why you even read it…

Really? That is what caught your attention in this topic?

On a topic, started by a developer, about the new mechanics of a raid, where you have been given a free reign to speculate on what this could mean, maybe quote the Dev, and discuss how this might affect raid, as opposed to that, you spend your time wondering… why another posters is expressing their opinion on a public forum?

From that alone, you also must be totally ambivalent raids as well, if why someone else is posting is more important for you to wonder about, then discussing raids on a topic about raids. over them. I would wonder why you are posting here, but not to be ride, honestly, I don’t care.

My thoughts are on if they will make it easier or give other means to get EXp for HoT mastery lines, then doign HoT maps/meta.

STIHL.2489:

Malediktus.9250:

katz.8376:

Manimarco Devil.1790:

People are so lazy they can’t even be asked to play the game to progress in a different part of it.

i’d really like and appreciate it if you’d quit insulting me (and others like me) because i dislike a certain aspect of the game and would prefer to play to have fun.

Considering that dungeons, fractals and raids are less than 5% it sounds like you dislike 95% of the game and I dont think Anet needs to cater to people who like less than 10% of the game

I have read many Proponents for raiders make the claim they only enjoy raids, following your logic, Anet should cease to cater to them.

Might want to rethink that logic.

This is where you are wrong again. Just because someone likes raids does not mean they cannot also enjoy other parts of the game. More content choices and varity is always good. Since raids only reward you once per week there is no use spending more than 90-120min per week in there sadly. I wish they would still give 2g per boss once per day after you killed them already that week.
Currently they are just a nice distraction you do once a week and then forget about

Malediktus.9250:

STIHL.2489:

Malediktus.9250:

katz.8376:

Manimarco Devil.1790:

People are so lazy they can’t even be asked to play the game to progress in a different part of it.

i’d really like and appreciate it if you’d quit insulting me (and others like me) because i dislike a certain aspect of the game and would prefer to play to have fun.

Considering that dungeons, fractals and raids are less than 5% it sounds like you dislike 95% of the game and I dont think Anet needs to cater to people who like less than 10% of the game

I have read many Proponents for raiders make the claim they only enjoy raids, following your logic, Anet should cease to cater to them.

Might want to rethink that logic.

This is where you are wrong again. Just because someone likes raids does not mean they cannot also enjoy other parts of the game. More content choices and varity is always good. Since raids only reward you once per week there is no use spending more than 90-120min per week in there sadly. I wish they would still give 2g per boss once per day after you killed them already that week.
Currently they are just a nice distraction you do once a week and then forget about

Well, that’s any raid.

The difference is WoW/Wildstar/FFXIV raids just have a longer shelf-life since they’re more demanding in general.

But raids always overstay their welcome once you’ve got them on farm.

It’s the curse of PvE compared to PvP, the content gets stale much more quickly since it’s scripted and not spontaneous.

It’s not their fault. What is their fault is the pretty miserable rewards raids give.

I think the rewards are pretty generous for the low difficulty of the raids. 18g + 6 exotics + champion bags + a large number of green gear + chance for minis/ascended stuff + raid tokens for 90min of time. Calling them pretty miserable is a far stretch imo.
To justify better rewards they would have to make a hard mode of the current raids. I think a hard mode with tighter dps checks and more one hit kill mechanics you need to dodge could be pretty fun. They would have to be hard enough to make all 10 players play at the maximum and not allow room for error. It is pretty bad that current raids can be done with 5-6 players if those 5-6 players are playing at the optimum.

Tornupto.2304:

You don’t like raids at all and post in this thread? Now i wonder why you even read it…

biggest reason i don’t like raids is the kitten elitists i gotta put up with to run them. sucks the fun out of the game when someone else is fussing at you how you HAVE to build and gear, down to the n-th detail, or else you’re gonna get thrown out of the group.

but it’s like you just can’t wrap your head around the fact that someone might not like being treated like that…. o well.

Malediktus.9250:

STIHL.2489:

Malediktus.9250:

katz.8376:

Manimarco Devil.1790:

People are so lazy they can’t even be asked to play the game to progress in a different part of it.

i’d really like and appreciate it if you’d quit insulting me (and others like me) because i dislike a certain aspect of the game and would prefer to play to have fun.

Considering that dungeons, fractals and raids are less than 5% it sounds like you dislike 95% of the game and I dont think Anet needs to cater to people who like less than 10% of the game

I have read many Proponents for raiders make the claim they only enjoy raids, following your logic, Anet should cease to cater to them.

Might want to rethink that logic.

This is where you are wrong again. Just because someone likes raids does not mean they cannot also enjoy other parts of the game.

Did you miss the bold part of my post?

Perhaps the reason why these kinds of discussions happen, is not because of what people post, but because other people fail to read what they actually posted.

katz.8376:

biggest reason i don’t like raids is the kitten elitists i gotta put up with to run them. sucks the fun out of the game when someone else is fussing at you how you HAVE to build and gear, down to the n-th detail, or else you’re gonna get thrown out of the group.

but it’s like you just can’t wrap your head around the fact that someone might not like being treated like that…. o well.

Fail is on your side. Just don’t join LFGs with idiotic requirements or aggressive statements like "one fail = kick* and you will meet a lot of people that aren’t elitists or trying to shut you down. I pug regularly and all I do is bring the stuff that is wanted by the groups I join. Most of the people are very polite and in a good temper. The bad ones in these groups are leaving after 2-3 wipes.
It’s obvious that you have to bring the best gear/build and so on because the raids are implemented for that. You cannot go in and 10-man-facetank it with a useless open world fun build. Raids are special content for players that want to have a little piece of challenge in this game. And to be fair, raids aren’t very hard.

STIHL.2489:

Tornupto.2304:

katz.8376:

Malediktus.9250:

katz.8376:

Manimarco Devil.1790:

People are so lazy they can’t even be asked to play the game to progress in a different part of it.

i’d really like and appreciate it if you’d quit insulting me (and others like me) because i dislike a certain aspect of the game and would prefer to play to have fun.

Considering that dungeons, fractals and raids are less than 5% it sounds like you dislike 95% of the game and I dont think Anet needs to cater to people who like less than 10% of the game

lolwut? i’ve said i dislike raids. i’ve said i dislike HoT maps. i’ve said i prefer WvW. i’ve never said i dislike dungeons or fractals. or PvP. or non HoT open world content. or world bosses. or seasonal events.

try again.

You don’t like raids at all and post in this thread? Now i wonder why you even read it…

Really? That is what caught your attention in this topic?

On a topic, started by a developer, about the new mechanics of a raid, where you have been given a free reign to speculate on what this could mean, maybe quote the Dev, and discuss how this might affect raid, as opposed to that, you spend your time wondering… why another posters is expressing their opinion on a public forum?

From that alone, you also must be totally ambivalent raids as well, if why someone else is posting is more important for you to wonder about, then discussing raids on a topic about raids. over them. I would wonder why you are posting here, but not to be ride, honestly, I don’t care.

My thoughts are on if they will make it easier or give other means to get EXp for HoT mastery lines, then doign HoT maps/meta.

I read the thread but rarely post sth on this forums. But what i really don’t like are ppl that only post sth to flame about even if they don’t like the type of content at all. Those ppl seem like they are just posting in this thread to flame Anet for minor issues which aren’t even related to content they like. And no i don’t dislike raiding. I clear both wings every week without big problems.

katz.8376:

Tornupto.2304:

You don’t like raids at all and post in this thread? Now i wonder why you even read it…

biggest reason i don’t like raids is the kitten elitists i gotta put up with to run them. sucks the fun out of the game when someone else is fussing at you how you HAVE to build and gear, down to the n-th detail, or else you’re gonna get thrown out of the group.

but it’s like you just can’t wrap your head around the fact that someone might not like being treated like that…. o well.

Uhm just don’t play with them?

>sigh<

alright. fine. my point of view and personal experience on GW2 raids, in it’s entirety.

1. i see lots of, honestly, very nasty elitist posts on the forums regarding being prepared for raids.

2. i’ve attempted to run raids several times with several different guilds i’m either in, or friends with. i have yet to succeed at the first wing. i’ve operated in a few different positions in the raid so far... tank, healer, condi damage, even tried one run on my herald breaking the bar with staff. the raid mechanism for the Vale Guardian fight is not terribly exciting or engaging IN MY OPINION. the actual raid wing itself is a (in my opinion) very uninspired "tank and spank" . it’s a tiny bit difficult, but only because twitch and running to the right place at the right time. basically, in most of my group’s attempts, the tank just needs a little more practice where and when to move close to the end when more than one section of floor is lit. the actual "dodge this, CC that, move here, more there." is straight forward and, frankly, boring.

3. i’d like to have a success under my belt, so i can at least possibly offer pointers to my friends... i join a group advertised here and on reddit promising to be friendly and open raid training. i get stuck in a "gear check" list, and i can’t even make an attempt until i ping all my gear to someone in charge of the group, and he decides if it’s meta enough or not... and when i say anything even remotely questioning or disapproving, i am told "don’t you want to be the best you can be?" I was running a Viper’s druid before it became a raiding meta. i’m in full ascended. i’ve been playing a ranger for 3 years. i’m not playing a flavor of the month or a PvE fun wtf build. let me run with what i got. i felt unwelcome and frustrated in what was supposed to be an accepting training group. i left them without having even once run or even attempted VG with them.

4. now i’m getting really fed up with raids in general. and now people on the forums basically are saying "if you aren’t raiding, you suck." paraphrased of course, but that’s what it boils down to.

5. the announcement is made that i need a mastery that i don’t have to complete the 6th wing. i’m not really enjoying HoT maps. i frustrated myself enough getting the vipers gear for my druid and the sigil of draining for my interrupt chronomancer. i really don’t want to torture myself to get another 2-3 ranks of gliding (not sure how many i need to max it. haven’t looked in a while). i’m already annoyed about raiding. so great. thanks for letting me know. screw raiding.

it would be a lot different if more people were actually helpful and friendly about it. but instead i get told to "get gud n00b" and "quit being lazy".

people are running shortman and speedruns already. and several people in this very thread have said "it’s not really that hard". if that’s really the case, then people shouldn’t be bent out of shape if one person isn’t 100% efficient. no, you don’t want to carry someone in a lolwut build, but it shouldn’t be an issue to take someone who isn’t "meta" as long as they’re good and know what they’re doing and the group as a whole can fill all the roles.

i’m not saying i don’t raid at all. i’m not saying i won’t raid at all. i’m saying that i’m not terribly motivated to work hard to raid, because of the current atmosphere surrounding raiding. i will still be making regular attempts on VG till i manage to succeed. i’ll just be doing it with my guildies, on our terms.

katz.8376:

the raid mechanism for the Vale Guardian fight is not terribly exciting or engaging IN MY OPINION. the actual raid wing itself is a (in my opinion) very uninspired “tank and spank” . it’s a tiny bit difficult, but only because twitch and running to the right place at the right time.

Just wondering, which fight on GW2 that you think is more exciting or engaging? I mean, if that’s “tank and spank”, isn’t every GW2 fight is tanking and spanking then?

i join a group advertised here and on reddit promising to be friendly and open raid training. i get stuck in a “gear check” list, and i can’t even make an attempt until i ping all my gear to someone in charge of the group, and he decides if it’s meta enough or not… and when i say anything even remotely questioning or disapproving, i am told “don’t you want to be the best you can be?” I was running a Viper’s druid before it became a raiding meta. i’m in full ascended. i’ve been playing a ranger for 3 years. i’m not playing a flavor of the month or a PvE fun wtf build. let me run with what i got. i felt unwelcome and frustrated in what was supposed to be an accepting training group. i left them without having even once run or even attempted VG with them.

I just want to say that those people probably just want to help you and doesn’t really meant you any harm. Months ago during a raid we have a necro who’s running minion build. We were talking about whether minion build can work for this raid or not and asked him if he has a more condition damage oriented skills. The necro then just left, without a single word. Seriously, we want to help him choose skills that’s better suited for the encounter, not berating him for picking the wrong skill =/

people are running shortman and speedruns already. and several people in this very thread have said “it’s not really that hard”. if that’s really the case, then people shouldn’t be bent out of shape if one person isn’t 100% efficient.

I have a confession to make. Last week I played necro and my monday raid cleared wing 1 + 2 of w2 bosses with super ease (we phased VG with 7:05 remaining for god’s sake). But to be honest? While my armor is full viper, one of my accessories is actually exotic and one of my asc ring even has toughness on it. Yes, I’m not playing at 100% and we still do awesome on the bosses, BUT I still feel bad for my other raiding members. They’re all probably playing at their 100%, yet here I am disrespecting them by playing with crappy stats =/

(huh “giimped” is apparently censored to “kitten” =x)

LegACy.1296:

Just wondering, which fight on GW2 that you think is more exciting or engaging? I mean, if that’s “tank and spank”, isn’t every GW2 fight is tanking and spanking then?
——————-
I just want to say that those people probably just want to help you and doesn’t really meant you any harm. Months ago during a raid we have a necro who’s running minion build. We were talking about whether minion build can work for this raid or not and asked him if he has a more condition damage oriented skills. The necro then just left, without a single word. Seriously, we want to help him choose skills that’s better suited for the encounter, not berating him for picking the wrong skill =/
—————————-
I have a confession to make. Last week I played necro and my monday raid cleared wing 1 + 2 of w2 bosses with super ease (we phased VG with 7:05 remaining for god’s sake). But to be honest? While my armor is full viper, one of my accessories is actually exotic and one of my asc ring even has toughness on it. Yes, I’m not playing at 100% and we still do awesome on the bosses, BUT I still feel bad for my other raiding members. They’re all probably playing at their 100%, yet here I am disrespecting them by playing with crappy stats =/

(huh “giimped” is apparently censored to “kitten” =x)

thank you for a more polite and level headed response than quite a few of the posts in this thread. to answer your first question… unfortunately most fights in GW2 are pretty simple tank and spank variety of varying difficulties. one of the most engaging and interesting fights that i can think of off-hand is actually Triple Trouble. not only does each head have it’s own mechanic, you have a whole series of events leading in to it, AND you have to kill all 3 heads within a short time frame, so you have to co-ordinate a large number of people to get it done. and you do have certain roles that need to be filled.. condi for husks, reflects, etc. this, to me, is more what a raid should be. epic on a grand scale. dodging teleport attacks and running to green circles over and over and over while beating down one guy is kinda meh, especially when there’s no intro… you just walk in and start whalin on the guy. admittedly i haven’t seen anything beyond VG yet. maybe other wings are more interesting, but the intro unfortunately doesn’t make me excited to see more.

to your second point… it does depend heavily on what is being said and how it’s being said. some people cannot take any advice whatsoever, but not everyone. i am much more willing to listen if it is not presented in the “this is why and how you suck” package. i have no idea what was said to the necro in your example, so what i say after this is pure hypothetical, but using a minionmancer as an example. they work great in PvE. so guy takes his minionmancer into a raid. the people raiding with him have 2 options at this point… you can say “you shouldn’t run minions in here. thus-and-such condi skills are better.” or you can say “hey man… minionmancers are awesome in open world, but the minions are grabbing agro and make the boss difficult to control. thus-and-such skill might be a better idea. could you swap please?” it’s hard to read tone in the written word, so while the former may have been delivered with the best of intentions, it is invariably read as “you suck for running minons. n00b.” there are still people that would leave even if told the 2nd option… but the 2nd is much more polite, less likely to be misunderstood. in my case i was told/asked “don’t you want to be the best you can be?” and it came off as very haughty. i’ve spent hundreds if not thousands of gold gearing my main, and spent the last 3 years tweaking my build. no, i don’t want to be told i suck because i don’t match someone’s spreadsheet of what’s the latest meta builds100%.

and as for your last point… 99% is still an A. you are still bringing your A game. you can feel bad about not being perfect if you want, but if i found out i was in a raid group with you, and i found out you had an exotic trinket, and one ring with toughness on it, i would say “so? we won, didn’t we?” the fact that you feel that not being 100% is disrespecting the group, and the fact that someone would feel disrespected by you not being 100% is part of what i feel is wrong with the current raiding scene… it breeds elitism. someone who feels disrespected by someone not being 100% is potentially someone who says “what the kitten are you doing, n00b!” just bring your A game

reminds me of a raid from DDO… The Thirteenth Eclipse… aka Shroud. it was a highly sought after raid for a while because you could use components from the end chests to make very good weapons and accessories. one of those weapons you could make was a so-called boss beater… a weapon that combined a metal type and a damage type to break through the damage reduction of the main end boss of the raid, a balor. if you know D&D at all, you know you need silver and good damage both to hurt a balor. there were other “boss beater” weapons available… if RNG was good to you, you could randomly find a weapon that could break his DR, but for a while, elitest (stupid) people were requiring the very weapon made from components from the end of the raid…to join the raid group. talk about a catch 22.

katz.8376:

unfortunately most fights in GW2 are pretty simple tank and spank variety of varying difficulties.

I realize you wrote a lot more then this, but I am going to have to disagree with you on this point.

Coming from very “role” based MMO’s, one thing I noticed being very different with GW2, was that most boss encounters in GW2 are not Tank and Spank, since there is no actual abilities that allow players to control agro, to use EQ, as an example, there is no “taunt” or “jolt” on GW2. So players really can’t control agro outside straight up DPS which makes Tanking, pretty much passe in GW2, just like since everyone can self heal, the role of Healer was also vacant in GW2.

Not to mention that a lot of boss mobs have mechanics where you can’t build something tough enough to Tank them, they either can insta-down you, or stun lock you, so there really is no way to be able to just stand there and take it, hence the rise and continuation of the ‘Zerker’ meta, for most of GW2.

So I am going to have to slightly disagree with you that encounters are “Tank and Spank”, since in reality, while there is often copious amounts of Spanking going on, there is very little to no Tanking.

I would say, most encounters in GW2 could be summed up more as Dance and Spank where everyone ends up having to deal with Agro equally, as opposed to just letting the Tank handle it.

There are some encounters that do make for the use of agro control like the lovers in AC, for example, but even those, are a game a agro control, not so much a tank role.

However, I have to agree with you about VG, havnig a very traditional Tank and Spank feel to it, because it has a very distinct mechanic that allows for an actual Tank role to be played, with the Boss getting agro locked to the person with the highest Armor/Toughness, not to menton that the Boss in VG, does not do a lot of actual damage, so it can be tanked to start with. As such, at least for me, it quickly become a very stereotypical Tank and Spank encounter, reminisce of Yesteryear’s MMO’s.

Otherwise I agree with most of your other points.

fair enough. good points. i agree.

the only thing i’ll add is some of the fractal/dungeon bosses have a "Attack the dude with highest toughness" mechanic similar to what VG has... in that case, while everyone has a self heal, you do still end up with a de facto tank... but since ANYONE could build for toughness... your "tank" was not limited to certain classes, as they would be in other games.

ELE TANK GO~! lol

katz.8376:

>sigh<
1. i see lots of, honestly, very nasty elitist posts on the forums regarding being prepared for raids.

I’ve seen more helpful threads and posts in this forum than ironic, sarcastic or elitist ones. The problem is that you keep the negative ones in mind while you are forgetting or not even reading the others.
And tbh I don’t believe in that stupid questions doesn’t exist. Yes, they do and some of them you will find here in this forum. I wish so badly that some players would think about their words properly before posting but this is not the world I’d like to have.

katz.8376:

let me run with what i got.

I think that’s the key point of the whole thing. Raids were not meant for this. You can do that in 99% of the game but not here. And this is good because GW2 would have lost yet another huge group of players. I don’t refer to a specific raid scene here, I refer to players that are raiding AND playing the other stuff in GW2. My interest in this game would have been lost or decreased very hard without raids. They are a part of keeping me here and I know a lot of others stepping on this path.

4. now i’m getting really fed up with raids in general. and now people on the forums basically are saying “if you aren’t raiding, you suck.” paraphrased of course, but that’s what it boils down to.

I have the opinion that you are exaggerating. Some ppl here are ironic, sarcastic and few of them not very enjoyable but has anybody really told to you that you suck? I guess not. The discussion in terms of ley-line gliding is just not in your favour but please look out for the arguments and that this gliding is ridiculous easy to achieve.

katz.8376:

one of the most engaging and interesting fights that i can think of off-hand is actually Triple Trouble. not only does each head have it’s own mechanic, you have a whole series of events leading in to it, AND you have to kill all 3 heads within a short time frame, so you have to co-ordinate a large number of people to get it done. and you do have certain roles that need to be filled.. condi for husks, reflects, etc. this, to me, is more what a raid should be. epic on a grand scale. dodging teleport attacks and running to green circles over and over and over while beating down one guy is kinda meh, especially when there’s no intro… you just walk in and start whalin on the guy. admittedly i haven’t seen anything beyond VG yet. maybe other wings are more interesting, but the intro unfortunately doesn’t make me excited to see more.

Well, you will be a little bit harsh to raids if you just focus on VG. The other bosses have different mechanics. I suggest watching guides of the other 5 existing encounters and you will see that Triple Trouble, which is tbh a braindead event, is a lot less complex than the raid bosses.

katz.8376:

to your second point… it does depend heavily on what is being said and how it’s being said. some people cannot take any advice whatsoever, but not everyone. i am much more willing to listen if it is not presented in the “this is why and how you suck” package.

You joined the wrong groups then. The players with LFGs like “Clear wing 1”, “Exp” and some others are not the ones you want to join because these players expect to clear the wing in a certain time span a.k.a. very fast & with no problems. Raids are now more or less 7 months old and you have to distiguish between those who had enough of struggles during that time and many others that are still practicing or only having success the one or the other day. You would belong to the last group and you cannot demand that the first sort will get along with you.

katz.8376:

i have no idea what was said to the necro in your example, so what i say after this is pure hypothetical, but using a minionmancer as an example. they work great in PvE. so guy takes his minionmancer into a raid. the people raiding with him have 2 options at this point… you can say “you shouldn’t run minions in here. thus-and-such condi skills are better.” or you can say “hey man… minionmancers are awesome in open world, but the minions are grabbing agro and make the boss difficult to control. thus-and-such skill might be a better idea. could you swap please?” it’s hard to read tone in the written word, so while the former may have been delivered with the best of intentions, it is invariably read as “you suck for running minons. n00b.” there are still people that would leave even if told the 2nd option… but the 2nd is much more polite, less likely to be misunderstood. in my case i was told/asked “don’t you want to be the best you can be?” and it came off as very haughty. i’ve spent hundreds if not thousands of gold gearing my main, and spent the last 3 years tweaking my build. no, i don’t want to be told i suck because i don’t match someone’s spreadsheet of what’s the latest meta builds100%.

Trust me I told so many players that certain builds, weapons, gear etc. are superior for raids than others in a very gentle and polite manner. But did they change? Not at all, only a small amount of them did. I have a guild mate playing staff necro. We are good friends in rl, watching soccer, drinking beer together and so on. I am ok with him playing his open world stuff and fractals on staff/gs also PvP that I am not playing. But as a friend he is still refusing to change for raids and he always struggles on the red condition guardian. Because he is a friend, we are taking him with us and we can manage to kill VG, but not very accurate. If I had pugged with him we would have had almost 0 certainty to kill the first raid boss because there would have been more than one player like him which makes it very hard to pass due to raids are implemented to run the more focused builds. People low-manning raid bosses is a sign that there are gaps for untrained players or imperfect builds. But the rest of the group has to play on the limit what is clearly impossible in random pugs, therefore you will fail.

If you have 2-3 classes you can play and you know all utility skills from just klick through players with these classes around you. Not only in raids, even in SW or elsewhere and you see a lot of players having 0 clue with those that make absolutely no sense to run with. Yeah, some builds could use them but a lot of them cannot and if such things are used in raids they will lead to a way harder time or to sum it up: a totally fail. And that’s what has to be realized. Same thing why serious people not playing full zerk all the way in WvW or PvP.

katz.8376:

it’s not really that hard

Yes, it isn’t. Assuming all running the best gear and play their A game. This is why ppl don’t want to have bad-geared players with almost 0 skill in their group.

tl;dr:
It’s just that “let me run with what i got” doesn’t fit together with “it’s not really that hard” in raids.

It´s actually pretty easy.

If you swim into a pond filled with sharks or salmons who think that they are sharks, you either have to be:
a) brightly coloured to show everyone how poisonous you are aka persuade them with your performance. Probably won´t happen as a shark is a rather straightforward animal and can only live while swimming on and on, but no shark tries to swallow a brightly coloured spined fish more than once.
b) camouflage and pretend to be a stone. Most people probably can´t read your DPS, so if you are good with TS persuasion and know your stuff in general, you can shift the blame on someone else.
c) be a shark aka follow their shark rules.

For the sake of fairness, people should indeed bend over to the raider rules if they enter a group of them.^^

jheryn.8390:

I haven’t done sloth yet

Dem raiders. Dem raiders complaining about masteries, now I see why.

I didn’t do slothasor yet either. It is so hard and annoying.

Mortifer.2946:

I didn’t do slothasor yet either. It is so hard and annoying.

Get enough reflects and you should be fine.

Vinceman.4572:

And this is good because GW2 would have lost yet another huge group of players. I don’t refer to a specific raid scene here, I refer to players that are raiding AND playing the other stuff in GW2.

Gonna have to outright disagree with you on this.

Large chunks would not leave, as I doubt that “Large Chunks” of players even play raids, in fact, I would bet that around less then 10% of the overall population even does raids, and even less then that are actually staying with the game because of raids.

As for the “niche” that raids fill, that could have been done with Fractals, simply up the reward on the higher tier ones, and add in a few new more engaging Fractals, and that would have kept the elitist players easily entertained for several months, add in some special reward, like have mag shards drop only at + 75 Level Fractals, in small amounts, hint that something big was coming, and they would grind fractals till their keyboards turned to goop, then raise the Fractal Level to 150, add in Legendary Armor parts starting at Level 100+, remove all the ‘easy’ fractals from anything over 100, and add in a few more instances that were designed to be more challenging (You could even use the existing raid team to make it happen), and every elitist would be grinding out the + 20 AR infusions knowing that us paupers would never be able to afford them, all the while bragging about how they were crying tears of joy for such harder more exclusive ‘challenging’ content, which would keep them busy into another year or so.

Honestly, as far as the game as a whole goes, raids didn’t provide anything that could not have been done better with 5 person instance based content.

Anet already said more people play raids than expected, especially more players than in other MMOs.

STIHL.2489:

Honestly, as far as the game as a whole goes, raids didn’t provide anything that could not have been done better with 5 person instance based content.

Nope, sorry, gonna have to disagree with you on this one. I played raid (and stayed in the game because of the raid), but I hate, hate, hate fractal. Hell, I think before HoT my fractal level isn’t even 20.

So yeah, raid actually offers people like me something that the game didn’t provide before, so that’s a good thing.

Malediktus.9250:

Anet already said more people play raids than expected, especially more players than in other MMOs.

Yah, but IIRC there target was something like 3%, so, 10% is being more then accommodating.

LegACy.1296:

STIHL.2489:

Honestly, as far as the game as a whole goes, raids didn’t provide anything that could not have been done better with 5 person instance based content.

Nope, sorry, gonna have to disagree with you on this one. I played raid (and stayed in the game because of the raid), but I hate, hate, hate fractal. Hell, I think before HoT my fractal level isn’t even 20.

So yeah, raid actually offers people like me something that the game didn’t provide before, so that’s a good thing.

I didn’t like Pre-HoT fractals either, an dmy rank was around 20 as well, it’s around 60 now, what’s yours at?

NikeEU.7690:

STIHL.2489:

NikeEU.7690:

Actually, we aren’t trying to convince you to drink the wine.

Go read the other posts.. yah.. you are.

We don’t care what you choose to do.

If you really didn’t care, you would not spend all your effort trying to attack the people who don’t like the change instead trying to talk about how excited you are for the change among people that agree with you. Both kinds of people exist on this topic, so why are you only talking to one of them?

No, I’m trying to get criers to stop crying. I don’t really care at all who plays or doesn’t play the raid. I’m not invested in the outcome of whether or not some random person plays the raid or doesn’t. All I would like is the completely out of proportion reaction from the Tear Force Complaint Squad to end. The forums encourage endless complaints from completely myopic individuals with no sense of what they are not entitled to.

Also it’s not a “change.” Every wing of the raid so far has required HoT masteries to get passed at least one boss.

Keep on fighting the good fight.

LegACy.1296:

STIHL.2489:

Honestly, as far as the game as a whole goes, raids didn’t provide anything that could not have been done better with 5 person instance based content.

Nope, sorry, gonna have to disagree with you on this one. I played raid (and stayed in the game because of the raid), but I hate, hate, hate fractal. Hell, I think before HoT my fractal level isn’t even 20.

So yeah, raid actually offers people like me something that the game didn’t provide before, so that’s a good thing.

I don’t know. I mean I like raid and right now it’s the only thing that I play in gw2. But I would still have preferred a 5 man content. My problem with raid right now is more about the organization. It’s hard to have 10 people available for a raid at the same time and we need to plan in advance. Most raid guild end up with a spreadsheet for their schedule. I loved when we used to do dungeon and fractal on the fly when we were 5 online.

That said, 10 man allow you more different build. There is just too much profession that are needed are mechanics to counter. You fill out a 5man team with basic role very quickly, leaving no place for anything else.

I still think that I would have more fun with a super challenging 5 man content than the current 10 man raid. Even if I prefer the 10 man raid, than no challenging content like before.

I just don’t understand why having Ley Gliding is such an issue, when this is way more achievable than having ascended gear and particular builds one may not be as familiar with just to complete a raid. At least with gliding you achieve this by simply playing GW2 and not grinding for half the year to just be accepted into a team to just see what Raiding is like.

Because of this, and the problems @Thaddeus stated above (finding 10 people willing to have a go at any one time), I cannot see myself ever raiding and it does make me sad.

Celine.6857:

I just don’t understand why having Ley Gliding is such an issue, when this is way more achievable than having ascended gear and particular builds one may not be as familiar with just to complete a raid. At least with gliding you achieve this by simply playing GW2 and not grinding for half the year to just be accepted into a team to just see what Raiding is like.

Because of this, and the problems @Thaddeus stated above (finding 10 people willing to have a go at any one time), I cannot see myself ever raiding and it does make me sad.

Well IMO it was worth it. It really depend on what you like in the game. Getting ascended gear isn’t hard at all if you give you that as a medium term goal and I just simply don’t understand this play a build one may not be as familiar with? Understanding a build doesn’t take that much time, especially if it’s on your main.

Sky.8035:

Thanks Gaile.

I only have one question in regards to this change. Why not require every member of the raid group to have at least 2 legendary weapons to progress instead of just ley line gliding?

If you’re gonna go hardcore, you gotta go hardcore to the max. I feel like you guys are being way to generous with this requirement.

Just my 2¢.

Nope 2 legendaries is so 2013, make it “twice told legend” -and- 5 legendaries.

Lolz hard and runs away to hide…

Celine.6857:

I just don’t understand why having Ley Gliding is such an issue, when this is way more achievable than having ascended gear and particular builds one may not be as familiar with just to complete a raid.

Well I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have nothing against this requirement, I would just like another way to get Exp for Gliding, as opposed to having to HoT Maps, which I don’t like.

STIHL.2489:

Celine.6857:

I just don’t understand why having Ley Gliding is such an issue, when this is way more achievable than having ascended gear and particular builds one may not be as familiar with just to complete a raid.

Well I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have nothing against this requirement, I would just like another way to get Exp for Gliding, as opposed to having to HoT Maps, which I don’t like.

If you are interested in Raids, you just need to raid w1 and w2. The bosses reward you with many EXP. If you’re not interested in raids the requirement is nothing that you will encounter.

Tornupto.2304:

STIHL.2489:

Celine.6857:

I just don’t understand why having Ley Gliding is such an issue, when this is way more achievable than having ascended gear and particular builds one may not be as familiar with just to complete a raid.

Well I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have nothing against this requirement, I would just like another way to get Exp for Gliding, as opposed to having to HoT Maps, which I don’t like.

If you are interested in Raids, you just need to raid w1 and w2. The bosses reward you with many EXP. If you’re not interested in raids the requirement is nothing that you will encounter.

Yep, in fact, we seemed to go over this several pages ago.

Thaddeus.4891:

I still think that I would have more fun with a super challenging 5 man content than the current 10 man raid. Even if I prefer the 10 man raid, than no challenging content like before.

For reference, the Fractals team has been interfacing with the Raids team with the eventual goal to convert every Fractal into a much more compelling experience with greater depth of difficulty at high scales. We saw this first with the Cliffside revamp, and will continue to see it in more Fractals in the future.

Fractals are ANet’s intention for end-game 5-man content, whereas Raids are the end-game 10-man content. Once everything gets to a good place with Fractals, it should fulfill your desires there.

Raids are an expac content and they can do whatever they want with it, nerf it to hell or put high pre-requisites… whatever they kittening want.

I hope the gliding between the spots (hopes for flying on the Bloodstone!!) won’t be as clunky as gliding between islands in DS can be. You know this moment where you are on the ley line moving forward but downwards and ending under the floating island.
Other than that, yeah I can totally see ley lines concentrating towards the bloodstone in order to fight….. What? Mursaat leader? Magic Elemental? Let’s hope it won’t be another White Mantle on steroids but a real creature

Oh, sorry, I posted about the raid wing and not about myself and my rejection of grinding things that are grindy because … well because it is a super fancy word.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Thaddeus.4891:

I still think that I would have more fun with a super challenging 5 man content than the current 10 man raid. Even if I prefer the 10 man raid, than no challenging content like before.

For reference, the Fractals team has been interfacing with the Raids team with the eventual goal to convert every Fractal into a much more compelling experience with greater depth of difficulty at high scales. We saw this first with the Cliffside revamp, and will continue to see it in more Fractals in the future.

Fractals are ANet’s intention for end-game 5-man content, whereas Raids are the end-game 10-man content. Once everything gets to a good place with Fractals, it should fulfill your desires there.

I strongly dislike both AR-gating as well as the instability system. Will Fractals fulfill my 5-man end-game content desires?

(I know the answer to this, I’m just pointing out that there are reasons to dislike Fractals beyond just the encounters. The systems used in Fractals range from “mostly ignorable” to “relatively unfun.”)

timmyf.1490:

I strongly dislike both AR-gating as well as the instability system. Will Fractals fulfill my 5-man end-game content desires?

(I know the answer to this, I’m just pointing out that there are reasons to dislike Fractals beyond just the encounters. The systems used in Fractals range from “mostly ignorable” to “relatively unfun.”)

As far as instabilities, they’re updating them and will be removing some of the dumber ones and replacing them with better instabilities. I asked them this during the most recent AMA and they confirmed they have plans to improve instabilities substantially.

For AR, it’s really hard to say. AR was such a non-issue for my personal experience in Fractals that I’m surprised that so many people feel so strongly against it. It is certainly a difficult to grasp system, but the gating itself is very easy to overcome if you actually play the content and progress. By design, you are not intended to be doing 90+ out of the gate.

By my understanding, all of these things will get better with seasonal patches in the future. Fractals now more than ever are the supported end-game content for 5-player groups, and the team is hard at work ensuring that they actually do get more enjoyable for a wider audience.

Rising Dusk.2408:

For reference, the Fractals team has been interfacing with the Raids team with the eventual goal to convert every Fractal into a much more compelling experience with greater depth of difficulty at high scales. We saw this first with the Cliffside revamp, and will continue to see it in more Fractals in the future.

Fractals are ANet’s intention for end-game 5-man content, whereas Raids are the end-game 10-man content. Once everything gets to a good place with Fractals, it should fulfill your desires there.

As far as I’m concern, I don’t give a crap about that until it’s in the game.

Ranael.6423:

I hope the gliding between the spots (hopes for flying on the Bloodstone!!) won’t be as clunky as gliding between islands in DS can be. You know this moment where you are on the ley line moving forward but downwards and ending under the floating island.
Other than that, yeah I can totally see ley lines concentrating towards the bloodstone in order to fight….. What? Mursaat leader? Magic Elemental? Let’s hope it won’t be another White Mantle on steroids but a real creature

Oh, sorry, I posted about the raid wing and not about myself and my rejection of grinding things that are grindy because … well because it is a super fancy word.

That makes you 1 out of 3 people who have actually done this on this topic.. as irony would have it, I am one of the other 2….

Rising Dusk.2408:

timmyf.1490:

I strongly dislike both AR-gating as well as the instability system. Will Fractals fulfill my 5-man end-game content desires?

(I know the answer to this, I’m just pointing out that there are reasons to dislike Fractals beyond just the encounters. The systems used in Fractals range from “mostly ignorable” to “relatively unfun.”)

As far as instabilities, they’re updating them and will be removing some of the dumber ones and replacing them with better instabilities. I asked them this during the most recent AMA and they confirmed they have plans to improve instabilities substantially.

For AR, it’s really hard to say. AR was such a non-issue for my personal experience in Fractals that I’m surprised that so many people feel so strongly against it. It is certainly a difficult to grasp system, but the gating itself is very easy to overcome if you actually play the content and progress. By design, you are not intended to be doing 90+ out of the gate.

By my understanding, all of these things will get better with seasonal patches in the future. Fractals now more than ever are the supported end-game content for 5-player groups, and the team is hard at work ensuring that they actually do get more enjoyable for a wider audience.

I definitely appreciated the updates they’ve done so far.

The main problem with AR is that it creates a barrier for 1) playing with newer players and 2) class-switching. While it’s no big deal for me to have multiple toons with the AR necessary for T4 fractals, that’s a pretty huge expense for newer players, especially players who don’t have full ascended.

And since it’s nearly impossible to get ascended drops from Fractals outside of T3+4, there’s no good way to work up to it.

Furthermore, all of the current incentives are to ONLY do T4 fractals (lol @ the two lower-scale dailies), so it’s hard to talk people into doing lower scales to help people earn tokens to buy AR.

Anyway, it’s sort of off-topic, so I’ll leave it at that. I do hope they find ways to improve the system.