Guild Wars 2

TexZero.7910:

I hope the story mode crowd gets the youtube video experience they are searching for.

It’s clearly not about playing the mode and the story for them, it always comes back around to rewards. It should not reward jack all if its going to exist.

It’s more clear that you dislike any notion of a storymode than that it’s clear what everyone who likes the idea wants.

Azoqu.8917:

Go back and read how hard dungeons were supposed to be before the game came out.

I do remember. Perhaps better than you do, because i also remember that they did expect for everyone to be doing those dungeons eventually. They were supposed to offer greater challenge than the rest of the game, that’s it. They were supposed to be “this game’s version of raids” only inasmuch as the “damage, control, support” was to be this game’s version of holy trinity.
Besides, at the very same time the devs were commenting how other game’s raids would not conceptually fit in GW2 and that’s why this game wouldn’t have them.

It’s just too bad that most of the blogs and dev statements from that time is gone now, and people base their arguments on out of context quotes that remained.

For all of those complaining that this topic has somehow run its course or that it isnt worth continuing, I would recommend that they (and ArenaNet) take a close look at pretty much every mention of GW2 raids outside of the forums – GW2 Facebook, MassivelyOP, MMORPG, etc. Read the comments sections on articles, Facebook etc, pretty much every time raids are brought up.

ArenaNet has a negative perception issue when it comes to raids. A lot of people see raids as inaccessible. Whether you think that is accurate or not in game is immaterial. The perception (which I actually do agree with) is there and it is very evident.

In my opinion, raids need a multi mode access model to address these perceptions (which again, I believe are based on in game realities). And, yes, in many cases it would do exactly that (or, at minimum, show players that Anet is paying attention to them).
Regardless of what happens in game, however, the persistent negative comments every time raids are mentioned outside of this subforum show that this is a topic that not only needs to continue – it is one Anet needs to pay close attention to.

Blaeys.3102:

For all of those complaining that this topic has somehow run its course or that it isnt worth continuing, I would recommend that they (and ArenaNet) take a close look at pretty much every mention of GW2 raids outside of the forums – GW2 Facebook, MassivelyOP, MMORPG, etc. Read the comments sections on articles, Facebook etc, pretty much every time raids are brought up.

ArenaNet has a negative perception issue when it comes to raids. A lot of people see raids as inaccessible. Whether you think that is accurate or not in game is immaterial. The perception (which I actually do agree with) is there and it is very evident.

In my opinion, raids need a multi mode access model to address these perceptions (which again, I believe are based on in game realities). And, yes, in many cases it would do exactly that (or, at minimum, show players that Anet is paying attention to them).
Regardless of what happens in game, however, the persistent negative comments every time raids are mentioned outside of this subforum show that this is a topic that not only needs to continue – it is one Anet needs to pay close attention to.

And since that perception is there, that is why there are people in those forums educating people. If those people still feel that it is inaccessible after being educated, it on themselves.

Anet does not Need to do anything to adjust the perception of raids. They sold raids as Challenging Group Content and that it would be exclusively for those that craved the biggest challenges in Guild Wars 2. They set that perception themselves.

Blaeys.3102:

For all of those complaining that this topic has somehow run its course or that it isnt worth continuing, I would recommend that they (and ArenaNet) take a close look at pretty much every mention of GW2 raids outside of the forums – GW2 Facebook, MassivelyOP, MMORPG, etc. Read the comments sections on articles, Facebook etc, pretty much every time raids are brought up.

ArenaNet has a negative perception issue when it comes to raids. A lot of people see raids as inaccessible. Whether you think that is accurate or not in game is immaterial. The perception (which I actually do agree with) is there and it is very evident.

In my opinion, raids need a multi mode access model to address these perceptions (which again, I believe are based on in game realities). And, yes, in many cases it would do exactly that (or, at minimum, show players that Anet is paying attention to them).
Regardless of what happens in game, however, the persistent negative comments every time raids are mentioned outside of this subforum show that this is a topic that not only needs to continue – it is one Anet needs to pay close attention to.

Meh. The persistent negative comments come largely from people who decided to dislike raids when they first heard there are going to be ones in the game. The majority of these people never even tried the content, but keep being vocal. I myself wasn’t keen on the idea until I got to try them. And guess what, they’re the best part of the game. Accessibility issue does exist because of the 10-man format. However, this exact same format is what makes raids what they are. Maiming the content so a bunch of grumpy players can try it and confirm their opinion (this time with a reason, because 5-man version of the raid wings would most definitely suck) is an exercise in futility.

God help us all if the comments section on massively op or gw2 facebook starts driving developer priorities.

NikeEU.7690:

God help us all if the comments section on massively op or gw2 facebook starts driving developer priorities.

Insta quit the game lol

NikeEU.7690:

God help us all if the comments section on massively op or gw2 facebook starts driving developer priorities.

Because that would be a lifethreatening disaster how exactly?
It’s really no different than comments anywhere else.

Astralporing.1957:

Azoqu.8917:

Go back and read how hard dungeons were supposed to be before the game came out.

I do remember. Perhaps better than you do, because i also remember that they did expect for everyone to be doing those dungeons eventually. They were supposed to offer greater challenge than the rest of the game, that’s it. They were supposed to be “this game’s version of raids” only inasmuch as the “damage, control, support” was to be this game’s version of holy trinity.

I remember dungeons being aimed at, “…coordinated groups of skilled players.” IF Anet intended that everyone do dungeons “eventually,” (and I don’t remember that being said at all) how do you know that ANet does not now expect “everyone” to do raids “eventually?” After all, they’ve designed what they call “easier” raid encounters.

FrizzFreston.5290:

NikeEU.7690:

God help us all if the comments section on massively op or gw2 facebook starts driving developer priorities.

Because that would be a lifethreatening disaster how exactly?
It’s really no different than comments anywhere else.

No, the comments in those specific platforms are incredibly tilted towards care bears whose idea of fun is the opposite of immersive skill based game play regardless of gametype. The only updates they praise are QOL updates and story content… but only of the story content is easy enough to do on the first attempt. Should you die a few times learning the mechanics (a LA Caudecus at the end of ep4) that is horrible, terrible to them.

So no, I don’t want game direction dictated by a subset of players who are happiest when their game play is little more than a glorified cut scene. Do those players deserve content? Yup. They have it, the other 98% of the game.

These are also, incidentally, the first group of people to accuse others of being toxic, of flaming people they don’t know, accusing the devs of having sinister motives, and generally spreading negativity. As beaten down the wvw community is or the ESL pvp community is you don’t see those players commenting on massively op articles saying that other players are kitten on the community.

Heaven forbid someone on the Facebook group asks for.help.with their pve build and you suggest something like a meta build. You aware these inclusive friendly community players will kick and ban people for suggesting it?

So no, I don’t want people with the narrowest, most myopic, most exclusionary view of fun and good gameplay imaginable having any influence whatsoever.

Fatalyz.7168:

And since that perception is there, that is why there are people in those forums educating people.

Ironically, all those attempts only make that perception stronger.

NikeEU.7690:

So no, I don’t want people with the narrowest, most myopic, most exclusionary view of fun and good gameplay imaginable having any influence whatsoever.

This is how many people see the hardcore raiding community in GW2 – as myopic and exclusionary.

And guess what, they are wrong as well. The reality is somewhere in the middle. People have to accept that different people play the game for very different reasons. And none of those are the “wrong” way to play, even when it comes to something like raids.

The whole purpose of multiple modes is to address that idea of different types of playstyles. And it is not only important from an accessibility perspective. It is needed, imo, to ensure that the integrity of harder modes remains intact – giving developers free rein to make blistering hard content without having to water it down (because the accessibility piece is covered in a different mode).

The comments of posters on their facebook page – in online media like Massively – on Reddit -etc – it is all important (but, at the same time, has to be looked at as part of bigger whole and with a realistic outlook). Those are customers and potential customers. While some are reactionary, inflammatory and irrational (as are some on these forums), that doesn’t discredit them all. Some are just looking for a fun experience in raids – one they cannot find in the current raid model.

NikeEU.7690:

So no, I don’t want people with the narrowest, most myopic, most exclusionary view of fun and good gameplay imaginable having any influence whatsoever.

Are you sure there aren’t other parts of the community, also very vocal on forums and other social media, for whom this description would also be a good fit?

Astralporing.1957:

Fatalyz.7168:

And since that perception is there, that is why there are people in those forums educating people.

Ironically, all those attempts only make that perception stronger.

And if those people can’t take that education and learn from it, we don’t want them in the game mode, and only fight to preserve it harder.

Blaeys.3102:

NikeEU.7690:

So no, I don’t want people with the narrowest, most myopic, most exclusionary view of fun and good gameplay imaginable having any influence whatsoever.

This is how many people see the hardcore raiding community in GW2 – as myopic and exclusionary.

And guess what, they are wrong as well. The reality is somewhere in the middle. People have to accept that different people play the game for very different reasons. And none of those are the “wrong” way to play, even when it comes to something like raids.

The whole purpose of multiple modes is to address that idea of different types of playstyles. And it is not only important from an accessibility perspective. It is needed, imo, to ensure that the integrity of harder modes remains intact – giving developers free rein to make blistering hard content without having to water it down (because the accessibility piece is covered in a different mode).

The comments of posters on their facebook page – in online media like Massively – on Reddit -etc – it is all important (but, at the same time, has to be looked at as part of bigger whole and with a realistic outlook). Those are customers and potential customers. While some are reactionary, inflammatory and irrational (as are some on these forums), that doesn’t discredit them all. Some are just looking for a fun experience in raids – one they cannot find in the current raid model.

The whole purpose of multi-modes is to try to increase accessibility, which I do not want. I also do not want Anet spending any more resources than what they are currently spending on raids, and to continue developing the rest of the game. Luckily for me, that is so far exactly what they are doing.

Blaeys.3102:

In my opinion, raids need a multi mode access model to address these perceptions (which again, I believe are based on in game realities). And, yes, in many cases it would do exactly that (or, at minimum, show players that Anet is paying attention to them).
Regardless of what happens in game, however, the persistent negative comments every time raids are mentioned outside of this subforum show that this is a topic that not only needs to continue – it is one Anet needs to pay close attention to.

Where is this plan on how this multi mode access would work?
Negative comments and vague comments without substance cannot in any way influence a developer. Coherent and well formed ideas and suggestions can.
You can find more info about it in this sticky thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-to-Give-Good-Feedback-1/first#post6372017
It’s sticky for a reason but you rarely find any good feedback in these threads.

Is “I hate Raids”, “I want multiple modes for Raids”, “I want a tutorial mode”, “I want an easy mode for Raids”, or any comments you see outside of this subform good feedback? No, it’s not. Read that sticky and you can see that almost none follow the guidelines of good feedback.

It’s right here:

Give details and examples: Not a generic “I don’t like this!” but a specific “I think this could be improved by {suggestions}.” And if someone asks a question about the topic, don’t just answer it — explain why you answered the way you did.

When someone wants a change they should at least form up some plan on how it would work, and then accept any arguments against that idea and try to counter them.

maddoctor.2738:

Where is this plan on how this multi mode access would work?
Negative comments and vague comments without substance cannot in any way influence a developer. Coherent and well formed ideas and suggestions can.
You can find more info about it in this sticky thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-to-Give-Good-Feedback-1/first#post6372017
It’s sticky for a reason but you rarely find any good feedback in these threads.

Is “I hate Raids”, “I want multiple modes for Raids”, “I want a tutorial mode”, “I want an easy mode for Raids”, or any comments you see outside of this subform good feedback? No, it’s not. Read that sticky and you can see that almost none follow the guidelines of good feedback.

It’s right here:

Give details and examples: Not a generic “I don’t like this!” but a specific “I think this could be improved by {suggestions}.” And if someone asks a question about the topic, don’t just answer it — explain why you answered the way you did.

When someone wants a change they should at least form up some plan on how it would work, and then accept any arguments against that idea and try to counter them.

I think youre being a little unfair here. We have talked many times about many different options as potential solutions – and I think you know that.

Most recently, we have discussed the idea of using the mote system to implement story mote versions of the fights in much the same way challenge motes were implemented in the last raid. It is highly unlikely such a system would take significantly more resources than the challenge motes did. The challenge motes werent well received anyway. Why not expend that energy on something people are actually asking for?

Just because every single response doesnt mention those types of solutions doesnt mean they arent productive – and it defintely doesnt mean they are somehow against the forum TOS (and I am pretty sure you know that as well). This most recent discussion – about encouraging people to look at these outside sources – is simply meant to reinforce the need for some kind of solution – a solution that could take many different forms.

There are also what I believe to be some amazing recommendations and ideas in the original CDI about raids.

That could be an entirely separate instance, the story mote idea I have championed many times or something completely different (Anet is very creative). The point is that this is something many would like to see.

And talking about that need is definitely something worthy of discussion on the forums. It isnt about being negative – in fact its the opposite. It is about wanting to change the game in what many would see as a positive way.

And, ONCE AGAIN, I dont hate raids (and I dont see many actually saying that).

Astralporing.1957:

NikeEU.7690:

So no, I don’t want people with the narrowest, most myopic, most exclusionary view of fun and good gameplay imaginable having any influence whatsoever.

Are you sure there aren’t other parts of the community, also very vocal on forums and other social media, for whom this description would also be a good fit?

No one group has the market cornered on bad ideas and stupid people, but the question I was answering was why I didn’t want those specific groups having influence and I gave rather specific reasons why. Would I want the average raid pug running gw2? No to that either. But the question was in regards to the awful gw2 facebook community and the comments on fansites articles that attract the lowest common denominator and I think I made my point about them clear enough.

Someone suggested that they are customers too, and I agreed. 98% of content is designed and developed for that sort so I don’t feel their victim mentality about the other 2% is at all justified.

NikeEU.7690:

Astralporing.1957:

NikeEU.7690:

So no, I don’t want people with the narrowest, most myopic, most exclusionary view of fun and good gameplay imaginable having any influence whatsoever.

Are you sure there aren’t other parts of the community, also very vocal on forums and other social media, for whom this description would also be a good fit?

No one group has the market cornered on bad ideas and stupid people, but the question I was answering was why I didn’t want those specific groups having influence and I gave rather specific reasons why. Would I want the average raid pug running gw2? No to that either. But the question was in regards to the awful gw2 facebook community and the comments on fansites articles that attract the lowest common denominator and I think I made my point about them clear enough.

Someone suggested that they are customers too, and I agreed. 98% of content is designed and developed for that sort so I don’t feel their victim mentality about the other 2% is at all justified.

To add to this, in my opinion, simply being a person who bought the game doesn’t make you qualified to discuss feedback on certain parts of the game.

Some posts on those articles/FB are so far out there that it is very clear the writer is very ignorant about the topic. Do your research (which most of you guys have done) , then post if you still feel its a problem

Blaeys.3102:

We have talked many times about many different options as potential solutions – and I think you know that.

Yeah I messed up and thought about the other thread… a problem of having many threads on a similar subject.

Most recently, we have discussed the idea of using the mote system to implement story mote versions of the fights in much the same way challenge motes were implemented in the last raid. It is highly unlikely such a system would take significantly more resources than the challenge motes did.

I answered that when I responded to the OP of the other thread:
Challenge motes do not change the entire fight.
Challenge motes do not reduce hit points of bosses.
Challenge motes do not reduce the damage of bosses.
Challenge motes do not affect the enrage timer.

If you check the challenge motes that were implemented in W4 there are two things they actually do:
They either add one completely new mechanic, or tweak ONE or TWO of the previous mechanics. The rest of the fights in Challenge mote is the exact same as the normal mode version.
Adding ONE mechanic and tweaking another one is not the same amount of work as tweaking all of them at the same time.

An alternative solution is to do exactly what Challenge Motes do but in reverse:
Remove a mechanic or tweak one mechanic (usually of the last phase of an encounter) and keep everything else the same.

maddoctor.2738:

An alternative solution is to do exactly what Challenge Motes do but in reverse:
Remove a mechanic or tweak one mechanic (usually of the last phase of an encounter) and keep everything else the same.

And I agree. Tweaking or removing mechanics is the right way to implement a story mote – possibly with some tweaking of the numbers, but that is a balance thing they would need to do regardless.

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

An alternative solution is to do exactly what Challenge Motes do but in reverse:
Remove a mechanic or tweak one mechanic (usually of the last phase of an encounter) and keep everything else the same.

And I agree. Tweaking or removing mechanics is the right way to implement a story mote – possibly with some tweaking of the numbers, but that is a balance thing they would need to do regardless.

It is actually not that easy.
Adding a mechanic and making an existing mechanic harder is considerably easier than removing one.
Given that i don’t know how Anets engine works, but i wouldn’t be suprised, if it is almost double the work they’d have to do.

Also i am pretty sure people were not happy with how motes in raids work, because you could only do them once or you’d only get rewards once from the achievments, there was no incentive to do the harder mote again if you already did so for achievments and titles.

Also taking ressources away from the current raid team to cater to people it isn’t even intended for is not acceptable.

Dominik.5162:

Adding a mechanic and making an existing mechanic harder is considerably easier than removing one.

For some bosses it will be hard to remove a mechanic yes. But others have very clear phases and they would only need to tweak the mechanics of the last phase and be done with it.

For example, I think we can all agree that the initial VG (before the first split) doesn’t need any kind of change. But removing the extra seeker at the last phase wouldn’t require any kind of effort (not saying that’s what they should do to make VG easier, just an example)

FrizzFreston.5290:

TexZero.7910:

I hope the story mode crowd gets the youtube video experience they are searching for.

It’s clearly not about playing the mode and the story for them, it always comes back around to rewards. It should not reward jack all if its going to exist.

It’s more clear that you dislike any notion of a storymode than that it’s clear what everyone who likes the idea wants.

Really ?

Everyone, that’s a word i feel you’re using wrong. Not even the “everyone” you speak for know what they want. They claim it’s story, but then they talk about LI and Rewards. They claim its Story, but then don’t go read up on it as that’s all that’s required for a story. They claim it’s story and yet somehow want the mode to shift to easier combat.

It’s never just story, you me and the dead ghost of Eir all know better than that.

Dominik.5162:

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

An alternative solution is to do exactly what Challenge Motes do but in reverse:
Remove a mechanic or tweak one mechanic (usually of the last phase of an encounter) and keep everything else the same.

And I agree. Tweaking or removing mechanics is the right way to implement a story mote – possibly with some tweaking of the numbers, but that is a balance thing they would need to do regardless.

It is actually not that easy.
Adding a mechanic and making an existing mechanic harder is considerably easier than removing one.
Given that i don’t know how Anets engine works, but i wouldn’t be suprised, if it is almost double the work they’d have to do.

Also i am pretty sure people were not happy with how motes in raids work, because you could only do them once or you’d only get rewards once from the achievments, there was no incentive to do the harder mote again if you already did so for achievments and titles.

Also taking ressources away from the current raid team to cater to people it isn’t even intended for is not acceptable.

Something almost everyone seems to forget (even some of the developers) – those “people it isn’t even intended for” you reference are players – players who would enjoy experiencing (EXPERIENCING – not just reading about or touring a cleared instance) the final act in the Saul D’alessio story – who would enjoy new fights and hurdles to overcome (even if they arent at the same difficulty level as the challenging version) – who would enjoy the experience of new content with guildees.

So, this idea that a story mode or multiple mode system would add nothing to the game – it is the one argument I dismiss outright, because I have seen the demand and I have heard people ask for it time and again (and I have seen it work in other games, no matter what people want to say about those games).

So, while the original press release may have focused on a small corner of the game population, it doesn’t mean that the content cannot evolve and grow based on player (customer) demand. That is the point of this continual (2 years now) conversation.

Blaeys.3102:

Dominik.5162:

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

An alternative solution is to do exactly what Challenge Motes do but in reverse:
Remove a mechanic or tweak one mechanic (usually of the last phase of an encounter) and keep everything else the same.

And I agree. Tweaking or removing mechanics is the right way to implement a story mote – possibly with some tweaking of the numbers, but that is a balance thing they would need to do regardless.

It is actually not that easy.
Adding a mechanic and making an existing mechanic harder is considerably easier than removing one.
Given that i don’t know how Anets engine works, but i wouldn’t be suprised, if it is almost double the work they’d have to do.

Also i am pretty sure people were not happy with how motes in raids work, because you could only do them once or you’d only get rewards once from the achievments, there was no incentive to do the harder mote again if you already did so for achievments and titles.

Also taking ressources away from the current raid team to cater to people it isn’t even intended for is not acceptable.

Something almost everyone seems to forget (even some of the developers) – those “people it isn’t even intended for” you reference are players – players who would enjoy experiencing (EXPERIENCING – not just reading about or touring a cleared instance) the final act in the Saul D’alessio story – who would enjoy new fights and hurdles to overcome (even if they arent at the same difficulty level as the challenging version) – who would enjoy the experience of new content with guildees.

They already can, it is in the game, they just have to experience it.
And after all, if their goal is to experience that story, they just have to do it once, or just as much as to understand the story.
They don’t need to torture themselves to do it hundreds of times like raid enthusiasts do.
But , if they want the rewards as well….

It’s what I did with Mallyx in GW1, i wasn’t that good of a player back then, i had no clue about meta etc, i asked 2 friends to come with me and help out. Asked around for some experienced guys to help us with builds and get us through.
Took a kitten long time, but in the end I experienced the story, that was the goal.

People who really want something will find a way to do so
It is only the people who don’t want to put effort in who usually complain about such stuff

I’ll only agree for a Raid story mode under the conditions that:

- It doesn’t impact raid development at all, meaning that no raid dev resources / content resources like art, music, map dev teams get pulled over to it. This will likely take the form of taking teams from the open world and living story development and push those releases back, asking SPvP and WvW teams to come in on this would be toxic.

- Rewards are negligible, champion bags, maybe a few raid shards per wing completion but nothing like the actual raid loot or Armor achievements. Asking for anything more is clearly showing the actual motive behind players who are interested in the story, versus those who maliciously just want the rewards and want to drive a mode into the ground.

Following the above I believe we can have a story mode for those who want a semblance of lore during the encounters, Deimos might be the only one who actually has some decent dialogue during the encounter but personally everyone else is kind of meh.

That all said….

The question is that is the above worth the cost? And the biggest question that has to be iterated is that is Arenanet happy with the number of players currently playing in raids?

All this discourse could be irrelevant if the numbers are where Arenanet would like them, it would ultimately not matter what any of us think if they are content with the numbers despite the potential to get some slight jump in them for implementing a story mode. If they are happy with 10%, or even 5% of the game population regularly going into raids, they won’t change anything.

Personal opinion is that Anet likes the numbers where they are at, a big hint was oddly enough the April Fools Patch notes for ‘Infantile’ Mode, where they mocked the prospect. Though not without mocking their encounters as well (6 VG Split, all my sides were gone). I’m not saying they aren’t taking the discussions seriously, in fact they are probably discussing it to death internally. However it signals to me that they have a fairly clear idea on what they want from raids, and it doesn’t speak of making another mode for it but pursuing other avenues.

Sykper.6583:

I’ll only agree for a Raid story mode under the conditions that:

- It doesn’t impact raid development at all, meaning that no raid dev resources / content resources like art, music, map dev teams get pulled over to it. This will likely take the form of taking teams from the open world and living story development and push those releases back, asking SPvP and WvW teams to come in on this would be toxic.

- Rewards are negligible, champion bags, maybe a few raid shards per wing completion but nothing like the actual raid loot or Armor achievements. Asking for anything more is clearly showing the actual motive behind players who are interested in the story, versus those who maliciously just want the rewards and want to drive a mode into the ground.

Definitely agree that the reward needs to be considerably less.

As for where the resources come from, Anet should do whatever makes the most sense. As I’ve stated before, I think (pure opinion) that they could do it for basically the same effort/resources used when they developed the challenge motes for wing 4. I would think the most logical move would be to transition those resources to meet this goal. But, again, that is an internal workload decision and is impacted by a lot more than we probably know.

As for the number of people raiding and how happy Anet is, it’s important to remember that it isnt just about the number of current raiders (which I suspect is considerably down based on what I see in game – with a small spike coming next week because of leg armor – and then dropping off hard as raiders tire of the content).

Another important factor they need to consider is player and public opinion regarding the game. A lot of people came to GW2 (myself included) specifically because they didn’t use the same tired old end game model from other MMOs. Fair or not, how they handle raids affects how the game feels internally and appears externally – and, based on what we see outside of this subforum, that perception isn’t very positive right now.

Blaeys.3102:

..what I see in game…

Uhm…
What are you seeing in game? Somebody counting raiders in the aerodrome? ^^
The LFG section of raids is the one with the most entries besides fractals and open world Central Tyria squads. Additionally Baghawans numbers of active users is not as low as was expected for me – and those numbers are just for one single dps meter from the market!

Blaeys.3102:

with a small spike coming next week because of leg armor – and then dropping off hard as raiders tire of the content).

Highly questionable because the huge majority of raiders is playing them for fun not for the armor.

The thing is, Blaeys, you always pretend to be objective and sober but with statements, half-truths and wrong assumptions with no proof at all and out of nowhere – like we can read above – you are noncredible to me and I wouldn’t trust you any single second!

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

..what I see in game…

Uhm…
What are you seeing in game? Somebody counting raiders in the aerodrome? ^^
The LFG section of raids is the one with the most entries besides fractals and open world Central Tyria squads. Additionally Baghawans numbers of active users is not as low as was expected for me – and those numbers are just for one single dps meter from the market!

Blaeys.3102:

with a small spike coming next week because of leg armor – and then dropping off hard as raiders tire of the content).

Highly questionable because the huge majority of raiders is playing them for fun not for the armor.

The thing is, Blaeys, you always pretend to be objective and sober but with statements, half-truths and wrong assumptions with no proof at all and out of nowhere – like we can read above – you are noncredible to me and I wouldn’t trust you any single second!

I very clearly stated all of this was my opinion.

Feel free to disagree, but once again, please stop with the personal attacks. They add nothing to the conversation.

When I say “what I see in game” I simply mean I see people slowing down their raiding (in response to the numbers comment from the poster above me), which is to be expected.

It isn’t some malicious commentary on raiding – simply that things slow down between content drops and that is as true in raiding as it is anywhere.

But it is important. Fewer people raiding has an impact on people’s pugging and training options as much as it does anything.

Again, nothing malicious – and I really dont appreciate the personal attacks. Debate the topic and avoid personal comments (I think Gaile’s recent post about best practices on the forum even says this clearly).

Vinceman.4572:

There is no personal attack, I just don’t trust you if you keep saying stuff like the above and elsewhere pretending that raids have to have their existence.

When you call me out by name and call me untrustworthy, that is a personal attack – something I am getting very tired of from a small group of posters. If you cannot debate the points, you turn the attack onto the person making them. It’s sad.

Feel free to debate the points I make all you want – just stop with directed comments and insults.

It is stuff like this that keep alot of people from actually posting on the forums.

@Blaeys

Raids wouldn’t have even come to pass if there wasn’t a demand for challenging content. It’s beyond doubt that Arenanet failed to bring about the challenge through dungeons at release, and steadily through the years they have tried implementing different things to add a bit of that challenge in the game. Having things like the Toxic Wardens require stomping or their attacks involving evades, inclusion of breakbars as a requirement for certain chak enemies to perish from…

It’s incorrect to say this game was meant to be casual from the start. Casual isn’t the proper term here, I should say ‘Easy’ instead, even now the game is far more casual than any other MMO in the market by far. What people seem to suggest all the time is that because this game had nearly negligible challenge for almost the entire leveling experience, that the end-game should be the same. I disagree wholeheartedly. There needs to be a range of end-games that allow players to set their own goals.

I think there are a lot more raiders out there than you believe, but I am not so certain to make a claim on the numbers being much higher. The big thing is that raids are active and active is important. You do have a valid concern that a set of raiders will likely not come back to raiding unless they want the other raid sets as well (and have all the money for it, the gold cost is rather insane). However the fact that Legendary Armor is confirmed to come out will also give an incentive for players leaning one way or another to give raids a shot, and if they like them enough, they still have plenty of weeks to get those LIs and nab the collection items.

I look at raids much in the same way as I look at WvW or SPvP, and to some extent fractals which carry a slightly different system in them. Not all of these kinds of content are supposed to cater to everyone, or else they wouldn’t be that content any longer. I’m certainly not going to request that SPvP have PvE Queues in it, that’s contrary to its intended purpose and is likely going to send a bad message to the actual SPvPers. And I can make this claim about raids being separate from open-world PvE because they share something in common with Fractals, being instanced and using more than a single party.

Lastly, believe it or not despite all these discussions and biases when Wing 1 released, the forum was overflowing with positive comments. Raids were an outstanding addition (one of the FEW good things at HoT launch) to this game. The amount of praise and gratitude from those who got their first VG kills back in the day was almost heartwarming. You would think they just found out about sliced bread.

So forgive me if this offends anyone…

Anyone who is paying attention knows full well that a non-insignificant portion of the ‘anti-current raid’ population really only wants one thing: Rewards. They abuse irrelevant numbers from other games like WoW, deploy opinions as facts with links to blog posts, disregard or ignore counter-arguments. When training groups insist constantly on the forums and reddit to lend a hand, they shrug those off stating they shouldn’t need them or that they should have to take whatever they want to bring in. When new raiders who were afraid at first of the experience, only to discover how much they enjoy raids right now after trying so hard for that first kill, they call those new raiders ‘elitists’ and at times worse insults. I’ve even seen threats, and that’s not to say that certain raiders haven’t gotten just as harsh back, but bear in mind that many of our side are on the defense here.

The above paragraph was a bit harsh, but if anything has soured me with concern to raiding, it’s the part of the community that never wants to see this game grow. It was fairly clear when HoT dropped from the backlash about the difficulty, and yes there were some issues that got resolved. The HoT rework was a monumental step towards making the harsh Magumma Jungle more alive and akin to a normal GW2 map. You can’t tell me right now that this doesn’t exist, that the community actually wants change. No, they want more Silverwastes and less Living Story Maps.

There’s a fatal lack of drive towards challenge in the community, and that’s terrible for the game’s future. I’m very certain that Anet knows this, which has put them in a bind.

Sykper.6583:

@Blaeys

Raids wouldn’t have even come to pass if there wasn’t a demand for challenging content. It’s beyond doubt that Arenanet failed to bring about the challenge through dungeons at release, and steadily through the years they have tried implementing different things to add a bit of that challenge in the game. Having things like the Toxic Wardens require stomping or their attacks involving evades, inclusion of breakbars as a requirement for certain chak enemies to perish from…

It’s incorrect to say this game was meant to be casual from the start.

(NOTE – I had to cut your post short in my reply due to forum restrictions – but I did read it all)

Thank you. Even though we disagree, you make your point without personal attacks.

To be clear, I agree with some of what you are saying – a lot of it actually. I don’t think GW2 should be, nor was it ever meant to be, focused heavily on casual players – and I agree that was likely never the dev’s goal, even at launch.

I also agree that raids came to be as a direct result of that need for challenging content – and they do a decent job of bringing that into the game.

But there have been issues arise from the introduction of raids – specifically related to accessibility (both story experience and interesting fights) – and they need to be addressed, imo.

What I advocate for isnt the removal of hard core content. To the contrary, I think we need a lot more of it in the game (across pve game modes). I just think the inclusion of multiple modes would be beneficial across the board. It would open raids up as a true story telling tool – letting developers weave it more tightly into end game. I would allow them to truly let loose and design hardcore fights meant to tighten us all up into the fetal position without having to worry about number of players at all. And, of course, it would address the accessibility issues we see discussed in many different locations.

So, again, Im a big fan of difficult content. I say bring it on. Make it exponentially
tougher than it is now. Beat the living hell out of us. But, at the same time, recognize that there are players who would really enjoy the raid fights, narrative, etc at a lower level of difficulty (and, again, by offering that, they would be free to put in more difficult encounters for those – including me – that want that kind of thing).

And again, thanks for keeping it civil and discussing the points rather than the poster.

Blaeys.3102:

When you call me out by name and call me untrustworthy, that is a personal attack – something I am getting very tired of from a small group of posters. If you cannot debate the points, you turn the attack onto the person making them. It’s sad.

See, you put up a claim, I quote from you: “the number of current raiders…is considerably down based on what I see in game.”
Furthermore: “with a small spike coming next week because of leg armor – and then dropping off hard as raiders tire of the content”.

You have 0,0% proof at all and write such stuff in a forum where everybody else can read and get his information from. You are implicating a wrong picture of the raiding community and you handle without true facts!
Either this goes with a direct intention of you or it’s just acting carelessly. No matter what this cannot stay unanswered and uncorrected.

So, you got countered by me and instead presenting facts in the next post, you report the objection to the forum administration. What about bringing facts, not emotions or personal thoughts with no evidence?

“I see it in game” – What source is that with how much reliability? Please tell me.

Blaeys.3102:

It is stuff like this that keep alot of people from actually posting on the forums.

Seriously, I haven’t seen bad behaviour in months here when somebody started to argue with valid arguments and reasonable thoughts. But if someone is coming up with blatant rubbish, as I have seen some from time to time, it’s no surprise that he doesn’t receive a kind stroke.

Vinceman.4572:

Highly questionable because the huge majority of raiders is playing them for fun not for the armor.

The thing is, Blaeys,you always pretend to be objective and sober but with statements, half-truths and wrong assumptions with no proof at all and out of nowhere – like we can read above – you are noncredible to me and I wouldn’t trust you any single second!

Blaeys.3102:

But, at the same time, recognize that there are players who would really enjoy the raid fights, narrative, etc at a lower level of difficulty (and, again, by offering that, they would be free to put in more difficult encounters for those – including me – that want that kind of thing).

They recognize that those players exist, they specifically didn’t create this content for them.

So the question is, why should they change their stance on it? Perception? They knew the perception beforehand and embraced it. Because people want it? Pretty sure that not enough want it, for it to become a priority. Although if you have numbers indicating that a significant portion of the population wants it (>50% of the population across all regions, not just NA), I sure would like to see those.

I’m not asking how easy or little effort you think it will take to implement, I’m asking why should it be.

Scipio.3204:

…something that should be deleted but most likely won’t due to unknown reasons…

Then tell me why all the people with 450LI+ still raiding. It’s more than obvious that it’s not because they are aiming for their 4th set or would you disagree here? ^^

Vinceman.4572:

Blaeys.3102:

When you call me out by name and call me untrustworthy, that is a personal attack – something I am getting very tired of from a small group of posters. If you cannot debate the points, you turn the attack onto the person making them. It’s sad.

See, you put up a claim, I quote from you: “the number of current raiders…is considerably down based on what I see in game.”
Furthermore: “with a small spike coming next week because of leg armor – and then dropping off hard as raiders tire of the content”.

You have 0,0% proof at all and write such stuff in a forum where everybody else can read and get his information from. You are implicating a wrong picture of the raiding community and you handle without true facts!
Either this goes with a direct intention of you or it’s just acting carelessly. No matter what this cannot stay unanswered and uncorrected.

So, you got countered by me and instead presenting facts in the next post, you report the objection to the forum administration. What about bringing facts, not emotions or personal thoughts with no evidence?

“I see it in game” – What source is that with how much reliability? Please tell me.

Blaeys.3102:

It is stuff like this that keep alot of people from actually posting on the forums.

Seriously, I haven’t seen bad behaviour in months here when somebody started to argue with valid arguments and reasonable thoughts. But if someone is coming up with blatant rubbish, as I have seen some from time to time, it’s no surprise that he doesn’t receive a kind stroke.

The instant he used the phrase, “based on what I see,” he has labeled his comments, quite clearly, as subjective perception, or interpretation rather than as objective fact. People posting an opinion, and clearly labeling it as such, are acting perfectly appropriately for a discussion forum.

Ashen.2907:

The instant he used the phrase, “based on what I see,” he has labeled his comments, quite clearly, as subjective perception, or interpretation rather than as objective fact. People posting an opinion, and clearly labeling it as such, are acting perfectly appropriately for a discussion forum.

Oh come on!

Then please enlighten us what is “based on what I see”. How can somebody determine decreasing numbers of raiders without having straight up valid numbers?

Tbh that is pure propaganda and doesn’t serve to a fundamental argument much less to a constructive discussion.
And Blaeys is the one who persist on such a discussion plus mentioning this in several posts from the past.

Vinceman.4572:

what is “based on what I see”.

Already answered in my previous post. It is a subjective perception. Essentially an opinion, labeled as such.

Ashen.2907:

Vinceman.4572:

what is “based on what I see”.

Already answered in my previous post. It is a subjective perception. Essentially an opinion, labeled as such.

And such opinion is no argument to a constructive discussion he is always demanding.

Additionally it’s ok to criticize his opinion because he is plain wrong and is still not able to substantiate his thoughts.

Vinceman.4572:

Additionally it’s ok to criticize his opinion because he is plain wrong and is still not able to substantiate his thoughts.

Of course.

Attacking the person is something else entirely.

Ashen.2907:

Vinceman.4572:

Additionally it’s ok to criticize his opinion because he is plain wrong and is still not able to substantiate his thoughts.

Of course.

Attacking the person is something else entirely.

Saying he is wrong is attacking? Ok, we are on a whole new level.

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

But, at the same time, recognize that there are players who would really enjoy the raid fights, narrative, etc at a lower level of difficulty (and, again, by offering that, they would be free to put in more difficult encounters for those – including me – that want that kind of thing).

They recognize that those players exist, they specifically didn’t create this content for them.

So the question is, why should they change their stance on it? Perception? They knew the perception beforehand and embraced it. Because people want it? Pretty sure that not enough want it, for it to become a priority. Although if you have numbers indicating that a significant portion of the population wants it (>50% of the population across all regions, not just NA), I sure would like to see those.

I’m not asking how easy or little effort you think it will take to implement, I’m asking why should it be.

I agree this isn’t why the content was originally developed. However,I believe that, based on player feedback and perceptions the past 2 years, it is time to extend that experience. I believe this is needed not only for accessibility – but to allow them to really let go when it comes to developing true hardcore raid content as well.

The real question becomes the exact question you ask – how much effort it would take to do so. I agrue the existence of challenge motes in the last wing indicates it wouldnt take any more than they exhibited in making that wing.

And, as to the last few posts in this thread, thanks to those who stepped up and defended the “argue against the point – not the person posting” ideal. It really is important to keeping a conversation civil and productive on the forums. At this point, I think it is best to just ignore those who choose to attack people directly. We will just have the discussion around those individuals – with level headed posters – like Fatalyz, Skyper (whom I both disagree with but at least respect how they choose to discuss), etc. It isn’t worth wasting any more time on people whose only obvious goal is to shame and browbeat people into submission or silence (and I will, even here, refrain from calling out anyone directly).

Blaeys.3102:

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

But, at the same time, recognize that there are players who would really enjoy the raid fights, narrative, etc at a lower level of difficulty (and, again, by offering that, they would be free to put in more difficult encounters for those – including me – that want that kind of thing).

They recognize that those players exist, they specifically didn’t create this content for them.

So the question is, why should they change their stance on it? Perception? They knew the perception beforehand and embraced it. Because people want it? Pretty sure that not enough want it, for it to become a priority. Although if you have numbers indicating that a significant portion of the population wants it (>50% of the population across all regions, not just NA), I sure would like to see those.

I’m not asking how easy or little effort you think it will take to implement, I’m asking why should it be.

I agree this isn’t why the content was originally developed. However,I believe that, based on player feedback and perceptions the past 2 years, it is time to extend that experience. I believe this is needed not only for accessibility – but to allow them to really let go when it comes to developing true hardcore raid content as well.

The real question becomes the exact question you ask – how much effort it would take to do so. I agrue the existence of challenge motes in the last wing indicates it wouldnt take any more than they exhibited in making that wing.

And, as to the last few posts in this thread, thanks to those who stepped up and defended the “argue against the point – not the person posting” ideal. It really is important to keeping a conversation civil and productive on the forums. At this point, I think it is best to just ignore those who choose to attack people directly. We will just have the discussion around those individuals – with level headed posters – like Fatalyz, Skyper (whom I both disagree with but at least respect how they choose to discuss), etc. It isn’t worth wasting any more time on people whose only obvious goal is to shame and browbeat people into submission or silence (and I will, even here, refrain from calling out anyone directly).

One could argue they already made an easy mode for wing 4…normal mode. What if they had reversed the motes system but kept the content exactly the same? I think it’s easy enough but others may not.

Vinceman.4572:

Scipio.3204:

…something that should be deleted but most likely won’t due to unknown reasons…

Then tell me why all the people with 450LI+ still raiding. It’s more than obvious that it’s not because they are aiming for their 4th set or would you disagree here? ^^

Well, it’s rather obvious they aren’t doing this for the challenge either – because, seriously, what challenge is there for people that have done the bosses so many times already?

So, we need to answer ourselves, if they aren’t doing it for challenge, nor for the rewards, what they are doing it for? And why exactly easy mode (or more widely accessible legendary armor, or both) would negatively impact that? Or maybe, just maybe, that possible negative impact wouldn’t be that big at all??

Astralporing.1957:

Vinceman.4572:

Scipio.3204:

…something that should be deleted but most likely won’t due to unknown reasons…

Then tell me why all the people with 450LI+ still raiding. It’s more than obvious that it’s not because they are aiming for their 4th set or would you disagree here? ^^

Well, it’s rather obvious they aren’t doing this for the challenge either – because, seriously, what challenge is there for people that have done the bosses so many times already?

So, we need to answer ourselves, if they aren’t doing it for challenge, nor for the rewards, what they are doing it for? And why exactly easy mode (or more widely accessible legendary armor, or both) would negatively impact that? Or maybe, just maybe, that possible negative impact wouldn’t be that big at all??

The concept of fun doesnt strike you huh? First raids are good gold for once per week with that out of the way raids now like fractals for many ppl like dungeons for many ppl are something that they have fun doing. Fun does not translate to challenge 100% of the time.
Challenge is what hooks you on many things, the need to overcome a challenge after that ppl do what they always did back in launch they get better at it. They want to see how much better they can get at it, to find out what other things they can do with the encounter, to play it differently and succed.
They want to test compositions with friends, wierd class setups and builds, and see how it goes. And tbh raids are hard enough after you get good at them to not have you fall asleep and still be able to do them which i cant say for other parts of the game.

Try not to think them as raids in other games as content you will soon enough outgear and move on think of them as set content that ppl are free to do what ever they want with it after the crack the shell.

Tl;dR why do ppl still do dungeons? Because they have fun doing them. Well raids are that but with better loot lol

zealex.9410:

The concept of fun doesnt strike you huh?

It does, but it’s in no way impacted by existence of different level of difficulty modes. Or rewards being available by other means.
So, my point still stands. If it’s really about that, why such a strong opposition to other mode suggestions? Are some players’ fun really going to be so much negatively impacted if other players will be able to have fun as well?

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

The concept of fun doesnt strike you huh?

It does, but it’s in no way impacted by existence of different level of difficulty modes. Or rewards being available by other means.
So, my point still stands. If it’s really about that, why such a strong opposition to other mode suggestions? Are some players’ fun really going to be so much negatively impacted if other players will be able to have fun as well?

Yes, yes it will.

Multi-modual design is a nightmare for balance that leads to easy modes being so trivial as to not be fun. It also leads to even less build diversity at the higher tiers of content as it has to be tunned so aggressively. Additionally it restricts combat design as you cannot have a complex easy mode raid meaning certain mechanics that could be feasible in a single mode raid would never see the light of day as it would mean completely rebuilding the raid encounter.

So to answer your question it absolutely can hurt others.

Astralporing.1957:

zealex.9410:

The concept of fun doesnt strike you huh?

It does, but it’s in no way impacted by existence of different level of difficulty modes. Or rewards being available by other means.
So, my point still stands. If it’s really about that, why such a strong opposition to other mode suggestions? Are some players’ fun really going to be so much negatively impacted if other players will be able to have fun as well?

Except that you seem to forget one very important thing: the game has never been a raid centric game. Never ever. If that happens, that is when the shift of identity of the game will happen. Mo, after suspending the legendaries said he wanted to focus on creating a living world. I don’t want them to divert resources to the point it will impede the development of this living world nor do I think creating this modes will benefit the already created raiding community.