Guild Wars 2

Liquid Storm.8097:

…Anyway, all I’m saying is GW2 is going down the same road as GW1 when people started forming parties for UW and FoW. If Anet continues to make dungeons harder, people will stop picking up random players and begin forming groups. This is happening right now at AC and this will happen to other dungeons as well if/when they change them. I remember when playing GW1, your world had to hold the Favour of the Gods to have access to UW/FoW. The problem here was that the Favour of the Gods was always held by either the JP or NA worlds and when EU finally DID hold the favour (which happened like once a month?), there was no freaking way you could get into those instances and not get wiped by the first couple of mobs due to being inexperienced.

I’ve been playing GW1 since beta and i think i played another GW1. In my GW1 EU had the favor of the gods ALL the time during our primetime. I never had trouble to find FoW, UW, Urgoz, Deep groups at all. Of course if you wanted to go with those uber-speed runners then they just accepted you if were tripple nuker. Those groups are not suited for new players anyway. You can’t complain that new players can not run with those specific groups which target at pure performance.

Dungeons are the only thing at least a little demanding and you want ANet to change that? What are the hardcore player supposed to do? Where should they go?

To adress those guys who call us elitists. Some of you admitted that you’ve stopped teaching new players AC, i ask who is the elitist now? I would consider myself a fairly good GW player and i love to help people through AC. My guild already thinks i’m crazy because everytime the guild is not doing anything i’m going to AC to help people. If you guys would stop whining and moaning and just start to help new players again then we would not have such a “huge gap in player base”.

And now you may call me elitist: I DO think that you should not get the same rewards for doing easy content. Hard content should be rewarded. I give you the credits though that the 5 token / story run for dungeons are a good idea.

Next time, try it with all white gear.

Luke, there are currently 9 (nine) dungeons in GW2. Why do they all have to be irritatingly hard? Why not make one or two easy enough for non-pro people to enjoy?

If you want challenge, persuade Anet to make dungeons like Arah or CoE harder. I don’t care if they go ahead and include a level 300 boss with 9 gazillion HP, a 20 second knockdown, 15,000 range AoE damage, an insta-KO elite skill with a 5 s recharge rate and an 0.5 % chance of getting a rare off him. Go and have your challenge then, have your fun, boast about how you beat him after 10 hours of non-stop hitting and dying. But at least make starter dungeons like AC, CM or TA easy enough for less experienced players w/o TS to have a chance. Or for casual players to blow off steam.

Well you do have story…i don’t know why you won’t see that? If you’d get tokens for story would you be happy then? Could then content that is supposed to be hard stay difficult?
You ask to change content that is not supposed to be for the players who don’t want to put effort into doing that content to be changed for them? That’s wrong. As stated before there is so much other content that caters to “your kind of player”.

If they awarded half the tokens, it would be a start. I don’t see the point of doing a story twice atm.

Liquid Storm.8097:

If they awarded half the tokens, it would be a start. I don’t see the point of doing a story twice atm.

I actually think the story modes, with the exception of Arah, are the most interesting, with some of the involving mechanics (at least as far as GW2 goes). Rarely do I turn down the chance to run a story when a friend or guildie wants to run it, either for their first time, or for an alt.

Some tokens would be nice, but not necessary.

Kanako Davis.5364:

Well you do have story…i don’t know why you won’t see that? If you’d get tokens for story would you be happy then? Could then content that is supposed to be hard stay difficult?
You ask to change content that is not supposed to be for the players who don’t want to put effort into doing that content to be changed for them? That’s wrong. As stated before there is so much other content that caters to “your kind of player”.

Agreed.

Effort, in my opinion is the real gatekeeper. Experience is probably the biggest determining factor for running the current dungeon instances. Experience takes a bit of time and effort to acquire.

If instances are brought down to a level when a player can run willy-nilly into an instance and clear it on their first go w/o a wipe, what value does this provide?

As proven by a number of examples and players, with some thought, planning, dedication, strategy (all components of experience), the dungeons can provide a fun and challenging experience – even for a solo run (awesome stuff).

Lack of preparedness, lack of dedication, lack of patience, lack of respect for the content, are all contributing factors that will make an instance a lot more challenging then it needs to be. All of these factors are something that the player can control, and are not the resonpsibility of the designers to compenstate for.

Can’t really speak for the others that did the lvl 35 run, but I know I went into it expecting a lot of wiping, retries, and struggle. Not for the reason that we were all low level, but rather we were all playing new alts that we had little to no experience using, much less using them in concert with people we had never run with before.

Ultimately, I think it was experience with the dungeon that was the main factor that allowed us to get through. That experience only comes with each of us having put in the time and suffering prior to this to learn the dungeon. That’s the hard part.

I’m actually shocked no one’s brought up one of the fundamental beauty of GW2’s combat system yet. In which skill, knowledge, and experience are far greater indicators of success than gear, numbers, or stats. This video (And the naked AC run) really drives home the fact. Thanks.

@Mourningcry. I think you should note that effort AND other player’s cooperation are the gatekeepers.

Let’s not forget, you may have the effort but if no-one is willing to help you do a run and be willing to stand by you through the aforementioned wipes, retries, and struggles then there is no chance for you. As I’ve said before, even with evidence that 35+’s can achieve a run, the stigma still remains that “if you’re low levelled, you’re not much of a benefit to the group”

That’s always a factor that people leave out. Cooperation from other players. With kicking from parties, all 4warrior+1mes teams, and 80’s only “fast runs”, you’ll have less and less time to experience the dungeon at the required level. Now we’ve established that 35’s can do it, we have to establish whether or not the community will change it’s stance and if those extra traits create that big of a gap between allowing or pushing away a low leveller.

People talking about redoing the story mode probably have never asked someone in the last 24 hours if they want to do storymode. I joined a guild that said they were pve friendly and liked doing runs with lowbies….I wanted to test my necro in the AC environment and NO-one would want to join me…so I ended up not doing it until I reached ~60.
Again, this is all about player perception and cooperation. How the hell are you going to do a story-mode when so few people want to join and do one too? How do you gain experience?

It’s always that catch 22. People will hardly let you join so you can gain experience, but in order to gain experience you need to have people let you join them.

I strongly agree with nethykins. It is more a problem of the community and the playerbase than the dungeon difficulty. I joined a pretty big an popular guild at the beginning. A guild that said it would be uber hardcore about the game but sadly later on after we had some GW2 routine people did not really do any group activities or help each other out. Most PVE friendly guilds just do dungeon farming and i think thats the problem. How are new players supposed to learn if nobody wants to help them?
I think AC EXP is fine as it is but they should change the story mode. Maybe they should reward running story with some tokens too. This could lead to a more helpful playerbase because more experienced players would not think about a story run as a waste of time and therefore are more willing to help lesser experienced ones.

nethykins.7986:

@Mourningcry. I think you should note that effort AND other player’s cooperation are the gatekeepers.

Let’s not forget, you may have the effort but if no-one is willing to help you do a run and be willing to stand by you through the aforementioned wipes, retries, and struggles then there is no chance for you. As I’ve said before, even with evidence that 35+’s can achieve a run, the stigma still remains that “if you’re low levelled, you’re not much of a benefit to the group”

That’s always a factor that people leave out. Cooperation from other players. With kicking from parties, all 4warrior+1mes teams, and 80’s only “fast runs”, you’ll have less and less time to experience the dungeon at the required level. Now we’ve established that 35’s can do it, we have to establish whether or not the community will change it’s stance and if those extra traits create that big of a gap between allowing or pushing away a low leveller.

People talking about redoing the story mode probably have never asked someone in the last 24 hours if they want to do storymode. I joined a guild that said they were pve friendly and liked doing runs with lowbies….I wanted to test my necro in the AC environment and NO-one would want to join me…so I ended up not doing it until I reached ~60.
Again, this is all about player perception and cooperation. How the hell are you going to do a story-mode when so few people want to join and do one too? How do you gain experience?

It’s always that catch 22. People will hardly let you join so you can gain experience, but in order to gain experience you need to have people let you join them.

Putting the blame on the community, and their lack of co-opperation and support is weak, and inherently shows a lack of effort. Take the onus upon yourself and create the conditions you need to succeed, put in the effort there.

Maestro threw it out there, and he got the support he needed to prove his theory. He put forth the effort to get it done.

When Maestro first put out the challenge, I emailed him shortly after I saw it, as did a scant few others. When we made the run, I think the total guild membership created for that purpose had a dozen members. Others who didn’t make the run supported in other ways.

Part of the “effort” is to push through it until you get it done. If you join a group and get kicked, join another group. If your group disbands, start up another one. I’m not claiming this is easy, nor how it’s disheartening when it fails, but that’s part of the experience (for better or worse).

There are players out there that are willing to help. We’re not all elitests. However, we’re not always going to be the one’s to make the effort to seek out those that could use some help. But if found, we’re not likely to turn someone away.

I think AC EXP is fine as it is but they should change the story mode. Maybe they should reward running story with some tokens too. This could lead to a more helpful playerbase because more experienced players would not think about a story run as a waste of time and therefore are more willing to help lesser experienced ones.

What I wouldn’t give for a constant 8~12 tokens per storymode reward. It’d make SO much sense to put that in as a real introduction to tokens. That way, you still get significantly more on expl modes, but storymode can still be rerun over and over by lower levels for exp, karma, and tokens.

I mean, look at the AC token vendor…how many times have you bought anything from the lower level gear tab? That’s totally catered for a low level token requirement, so using that for story-mode will help let lowbies gain the AC lower set, get their feet wet with tokens, vendors and armour-set bonuses, at the same time giving them gear that makes them more beneficial to a team in expl mode because of the increased damage to ghosts.

Mourningcry.9428:

Putting the blame on the community, and their lack of co-opperation and support is weak, and inherently shows a lack of effort. Take the onus upon yourself and create the conditions you need to succeed, put in the effort there.

Maestro threw it out there, and he got the support he needed to prove his theory. He put forth the effort to get it done.

When Maestro first put out the challenge, I emailed him shortly after I saw it, as did a scant few others. When we made the run, I think the total guild membership created for that purpose had a dozen members. Others who didn’t make the run supported in other ways.

Part of the “effort” is to push through it until you get it done. If you join a group and get kicked, join another group. If your group disbands, start up another one. I’m not claiming this is easy, nor how it’s disheartening when it fails, but that’s part of the experience (for better or worse).

There are players out there that are willing to help. We’re not all elitests. However, we’re not always going to be the one’s to make the effort to seek out those that could use some help. But if found, we’re not likely to turn someone away.

I’m only highlighting a point you missed.
I could have easily said, “placing the blame on solo effort is a weak argument” but i didn’t because it makes sense and also I realised while it does require individual effort, dungeons are not an individual activity
As my example stated. I wanted to even do storymode, the effort was there…this was an alt, I kept looking out. I joined a guild soley described as PvE, friendly and helpful with doing lowbie dungeon runs. I was constantly willing, but was anyone else? Barely.

Let’s put it this way. Maestro made the effort to prove it was doable. Your effort and many other’s contributed to this. All I was saying is that it is NOT just a solo effort. Maestro could not have done it without you and the rest, and you and the rest would not be proving anyone wrong if you didn’t have the effort of Maestro wanting to prove people wrong.

On Maestro’s run: There’s a difference between doing a run as 35+’s for experimental purposes and doing it in your normal, every-day playtime, also we’ll add to this that the post was made nearly a week before the run took place.
So waiting a handful of days to do one run is normal? When people were talking about waiting hours to get a group or into WvW, they just must have been all impatient then?

I never said you guys were elitist, or event imply that. I am only pointing out in the grand scheme of things, will this change player’s perception of the fact that 35’s are still as viable and valuable as 80’s. Sure, you and your group involved in this may be completely welcoming to new players or people willing to learn the dungeon format for the first time, but you have to remember…you are one group and there is a significant minority of those groups around. The more people spread out the notion that 80’s are – on a playerbase level – better for AC runs, then that will continually snowball and guilds will become more reluctant because it’s “just how it is”.

TL;DR: Effort in a group dungeon is not a defined as “individual effort” and requires effort of other people too! (You should know this!!!!!!!). This is a question of whether the general playerbase will change it’s opinion on the stigma of “only 80’s plz”. This is not criticising anyone’s effort for the experiment.

nethykins.7986:

Mourningcry.9428:

Putting the blame on the community, and their lack of co-opperation and support is weak, and inherently shows a lack of effort. Take the onus upon yourself and create the conditions you need to succeed, put in the effort there.

Maestro threw it out there, and he got the support he needed to prove his theory. He put forth the effort to get it done.

When Maestro first put out the challenge, I emailed him shortly after I saw it, as did a scant few others. When we made the run, I think the total guild membership created for that purpose had a dozen members. Others who didn’t make the run supported in other ways.

Part of the “effort” is to push through it until you get it done. If you join a group and get kicked, join another group. If your group disbands, start up another one. I’m not claiming this is easy, nor how it’s disheartening when it fails, but that’s part of the experience (for better or worse).

There are players out there that are willing to help. We’re not all elitests. However, we’re not always going to be the one’s to make the effort to seek out those that could use some help. But if found, we’re not likely to turn someone away.

I’m only highlighting a point you missed.
I could have easily said, “placing the blame on solo effort is a weak argument” but i didn’t because it makes sense and also I realised while it does require individual effort, dungeons are not an individual activity
As my example stated. I wanted to even do storymode, the effort was there…this was an alt, I kept looking out. I joined a guild soley described as PvE, friendly and helpful with doing lowbie dungeon runs. I was constantly willing, but was anyone else? Barely.

Let’s put it this way. Maestro made the effort to prove it was doable. Your effort and many other’s contributed to this. All I was saying is that it is NOT just a solo effort. Maestro could not have done it without you and the rest, and you and the rest would not be proving anyone wrong if you didn’t have the effort of Maestro wanting to prove people wrong.

On Maestro’s run: There’s a difference between doing a run as 35+’s for experimental purposes and doing it in your normal, every-day playtime, also we’ll add to this that the post was made nearly a week before the run took place.
So waiting a handful of days to do one run is normal? When people were talking about waiting hours to get a group or into WvW, they just must have been all impatient then?

I never said you guys were elitist, or event imply that. I am only pointing out in the grand scheme of things, will this change player’s perception of the fact that 35’s are still as viable and valuable as 80’s. Sure, you and your group involved in this may be completely welcoming to new players or people willing to learn the dungeon format for the first time, but you have to remember…you are one group and there is a significant minority of those groups around. The more people spread out the notion that 80’s are – on a playerbase level – better for AC runs, then that will continually snowball and guilds will become more reluctant because it’s “just how it is”.

TL;DR: Effort in a group dungeon is not a defined as “individual effort” and requires effort of other people too! (You should know this!!!!!!!). This is a question of whether the general playerbase will change it’s opinion on the stigma of “only 80’s plz”. This is not criticising anyone’s effort for the experiment.

Whoa, I know what you mean And I know you’re not critizing the experiment – thanks.

I’m saying part of the “effort” is getting a group of likeminded people. Whether this is a guild, or adds to your friend list, that’s part of it. Put the effort into putting together a core group you can, and want to work with. If I have a good run with a PUG, I usually say something along the lines of “Good run, please add me and send a tell if you need to fill a spot! Thanks!” And that’s not lipservice, I mean it. Likewise, if someone else says that, I’ll add em, make a note, and now that’s a person I can call on if I want to fill a spot. Such a small effort, but it’s been worth it.

Part of the effort extends beyond just running the dungeon. It’s the prep that goes into it.

And no disrespect to the guild you mentioned, but if guildmembers aren’t willing to help our fellow members, then perhaps that’s a reflection of just what type of guild it is, and perhaps it best if a little effort be put into finding a more appropriate guild.

Also, as a side note, the reason it took a ~week for us to do the run is because many of us had to level up an alt from scratch, as well as finding a time we could all be on to do the video feed being in different timezones with weekday commimtments. It was just something we wanted to do, and a time constraint really wasn’t something we wanted to deal with.

80’s will always have an advantage over 35’s however minor anyone may think it is. The difference varies on a class by class basis. Some classes traits synergize better than others and require the proper trait setup to utilize better builds. 35’s dont get that same opportunity like 80’s do. Yes every dungeon is doable at their recommended level, but again, most people want less risk. The way GW2 is setup is:

Player Skill/experience > team comp > gear/traits.

The gap between Skill/experience and team composition is so drastic that every content can be cleared with any wack party setup as long as the players are skilled enough.

Other MMO’s follow a different trend of:

Team comp > Gear/traits > Skill/experience.

There are alot of content in those games that regardless of how good you are, you wont be able to do the content if you dont have the proper comp (tank+healer) or the gear to survive/dps encounters.

I definitely commend your intentions of the purpose of this video but if you take what I’ve said in this post into account, the video basically just tells the community that skilled/experienced players can do the content at recommended level. Pug’s dont know if the people they are partying with are “experienced/skilled players”. In an attempt to minimize that risk, they look for signs of an experienced/skilled players. This includes lvl 80, high achievement points, being in a prestiged guild, etc. etc.

The process of minimizing risk isnt necessarily “elitism”.

Fully understand where you’re coming from Mourningcry.

Mourningcry.9428:

And no disrespect to the guild you mentioned, but if guildmembers aren’t willing to help our fellow members, then perhaps that’s a reflection of just what type of guild it is, and perhaps it best if a little effort be put into finding a more appropriate guild.

No harm done. TBH, I’m shifting guilds so often, so I’m going to make a move to another one since all the one’s I’ve previously represented aren’t really that helpful. been in 8 or so different guilds. Some good mannered (A month ago 2 other members waited for ~2 hours with me trying to find more people for another alt to do storymode, we gave up in the end because it was getting late) and some not so good, as mentioned previously. Most recently I’ve jumped on board and found a lot are even reluctant to do low level fractals. I have 2 80’s 1 60 and one 50 and am still on fractal level 2 because I took a break when FoTM was introduced. That too is one of those things that over time has segregated the playerbase…however that’s more of the dev’s bad call.

Liquid Storm.8097:

Maestro.5376:

Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant that the decrease in AC Exp population does not MAINLY stem from new 35’s being driven away by what they deem an impossible dungeon, but mainly stems from players who farm gold being led towards more profitable runs like CoF P1.

Exactly, so what’s the point of AC then…..? It’s too hard for new players, not worth the trouble for gold farmers, not essential for players wanting to level up….

So I’d like to talk about content here for a second. A lot of people seem to expect that everything in this game has a purpose, that it’s designed to fulfill the needs of a very specific audience. But what I find beautiful about GW2 is that the game designers have put things in the world that aren’t necessarily rewarding intrinsically, but are still excellent elements within the game. A good example of this would be Jump Puzzles. The chests at the end of Jump Puzzles rarely award anything good, and Achievement Points aren’t really used for anything, so why do people do them?

Because it’s there. Some players just like experiencing content just because it’s content, and will go to any lengths and effort to get there. I never really expected the Explorable Mode dungeons to be very core elements of the game; that’s why none of the main story occurs in Ex dungeons and happens only with story. That’s why none of the rewards gotten from ex mode dungeons can ONLY be obtained through ex mode.

Liquid Storm.8097:

Maestro.5376:

And if you watched the video, we basically just proved that it WASN’T challenging for level 35 players. We were by no means familiar with our classes, and we’re not the best players in the game. We hadn’t even played together prior to this run. It was just a group of people who decided to get together and run AC Ex. Sure, we had some pre-knowledge of the dungeon, but the majority of it isn’t hard to figure out, and the rest depends on how well players are able to stay out of red circles, dodge properly, etc.

This was the title of your topic:
Calling Experienced Players with lvl ~35 Alts

Having said that, you have proved nothing.

Actually, we proved that level 35s are not nearly as hampered by the “stat limitations” everyone complains about low levels having, further cementing the hypothesis that a group of players, whether 35 in greens or 80 in exotics, is going to have a hard time if they don’t know what the kitten they’re doing.

Liquid Storm.8097:

With skype/TS open….?

Anyway, all I’m saying is GW2 is going down the same road as GW1 when people started forming parties for UW and FoW. If Anet continues to make dungeons harder, people will stop picking up random players and begin forming groups. This is happening right now at AC and this will happen to other dungeons as well if/when they change them. I remember when playing GW1, your world had to hold the Favour of the Gods to have access to UW/FoW. The problem here was that the Favour of the Gods was always held by either the JP or NA worlds and when EU finally DID hold the favour (which happened like once a month?), there was no freaking way you could get into those instances and not get wiped by the first couple of mobs due to being inexperienced. Hence people got fed up and started forming private groups and that’s something I don’t want to see with GW2’s dungeons, especially not a level 35 one.

We had elitists in GW1 too with the same mentality as you guys here do. The game therefore became boring after a while for me as a casual player – all you could do was PvE, you had no chance of getting into a decent PvP group and you couldn’t even get into a dungeon group. At some point you could finally get rares by participating in a Barrage group (forgot the name of the instance) and even then they just had to patch that up.

I thought GW2 was supposed to be different. It started off very well, the PvE experience is great, people helping each other out, etc. But as far as dungeons go, apparently it’s gonna be the same freakishly irritating story as with its predecessor – only skype-organized, high-l33t m4d skillZ allowed. Probably the last title I’ve ever bought from Anet, apparently I’m not their target audience.

On a humorous note, I’d like to point out that the entirety of the run consisted of me yelling in panic in TS since I was really the only one that talked a lot (3 of the members didn’t have mics and the 4th was somewhat quiet). It was just 42 minutes of “whoooooah” “nnnnnehhhhh” and “oshioshioshibackupbackupbackup.” I don’t really think it contributed anything to our success except lighten the mood XD.

Regarding your other comments; perhaps the problem is not with the difficulty of the dungeons themselves but perhaps the lack of overall content. I believe a lot of the “casual” crowd (even though back then I don’t really think MMOs attracted that demographic) had troubles with WoW when it first started, simply because there wasn’t enough content geared towards their preferences. 8 years later, WoW has a massive casual following and lots of content geared towards that kind of player. But it took them most of that 8 years to do it.

Perhaps in a few years Anet will be able to deliver more casual-friendly content, but I think at the moment they’re just trying to bring their current world up to a good casual:hardcore ratio, and the dungeons are where they’re starting.

Regarding the comments on Story Mode tokens, this is what Robert Hrouda had to say on the issue:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

We had them in story before launch, but what we found is that we couldn’t strike a balance between the amount we give for completing story mode, and the difficult difference. Our feedback was that rather than face the challenge of Explorable dungeons, high skill groups would just afk faceroll the much easier story mode content for the guaranteed smaller token amount. We tried several things, but couldn’t strike the balance, so we removed tokens from story mode as a reward and put them into explorable mode only as a reward.

I think a better solution would be to implement Rare Armor distribution from the Rare Armor Token set directly, and stop when the entire set had been awarded. This prevents people from spamming story mode for tokens, but also gives tangible rewards to players who enjoy Story Mode.

I wish people had heard us talking and saw us typing. We really are not elitist at all, and I do not understand why you are calling us that, over and over, and over. I have never turned a person down, whether it was their first time, or they didn’t have rares/exotics, or they were at the dungeons level. I have, however, been turned down, eeerm 39 times now on my lvl 74 elementalist for AC explorable. It makes me sad.

Also, I’m for the all-white challenge.

So some people get a pug going with some low level characters to do a dungeon. Then proceed to be called elitist by someone who says he will not take anyone who is not an experienced 80. That’s weird…

Good run guys!

I saw this coming. People too upset because it’s impossible to do a level 35 run of explorable. Then someone comes along and shows it’s not impossible. The same people are still upset anyway. Some people want things to be horrible. They are trying to nitpick every possible place in this great run so they can feel better or something.

Nice discussion thread here and grats to the group on a job well done – nice vid.
I am old as dirt and been on about every MMO out there, can say without hesitation GW2 hit the nail on the head. The game world is huge, dynamic, and has something for everyone, sPVP, WvW, PVE, dynamic events, personal story the content goes on and on for every type of player out there. The design staff made the Dungeons team oriented and challenging. Right on target for casual and experienced players, challenge is what keeps us interested, at least me. They did a great job re-balancing and looking forward to more work through all the Dungeons, do not care if a wipe a few times along the way or “gasp’ need to use teamwork to geter done.

You do not need to be uber to do the Dungeon content nor do you need to be an expert player, I am living proof as is this team of players who completed this with minimum level/gear toons, they also never ran together before this event.

If you do not have first-hand knowledge stop calling the players that took the time on this effort elitist, it is rude since no one has stated they have knowledge of their play style or how they treat other players; sounds like some of them are taking exception to that label because they take the time to accept all comers, that would offend me also…

Brennus.1435:

I saw this coming. People too upset because it’s impossible to do a level 35 run of explorable. Then someone comes along and shows it’s not impossible. The same people are still upset anyway. Some people want things to be horrible. They are trying to nitpick every possible place in this great run so they can feel better or something.

Would you have it any other way?

WonderfulCT.6278:

Brennus.1435:

I saw this coming. People too upset because it’s impossible to do a level 35 run of explorable. Then someone comes along and shows it’s not impossible. The same people are still upset anyway. Some people want things to be horrible. They are trying to nitpick every possible place in this great run so they can feel better or something.

Would you have it any other way?

No, the forums wouldn’t feel like home any more, haha.

Ursan.7846:

I’m actually shocked no one’s brought up one of the fundamental beauty of GW2’s combat system yet. In which skill, knowledge, and experience are far greater indicators of success than gear, numbers, or stats. This video (And the naked AC run) really drives home the fact. Thanks.

That reminds me…seeing that video they truly were at a disadvantage being at lvl 80 and basically being double penalty’ed from downscaling and having no armor. I’m curious how they’d fair with the new dungeon changes on a naked run.

Compared to what we did, their success was much more unlikely…and yet probably more people expected lvl 35s to fail more. Very curious.

what music was that?

nethykins.7986:

@Mourningcry. I think you should note that effort AND other player’s cooperation are the gatekeepers.

Let’s not forget, you may have the effort but if no-one is willing to help you do a run and be willing to stand by you through the aforementioned wipes, retries, and struggles then there is no chance for you. As I’ve said before, even with evidence that 35+’s can achieve a run, the stigma still remains that “if you’re low levelled, you’re not much of a benefit to the group”

That’s always a factor that people leave out. Cooperation from other players. With kicking from parties, all 4warrior+1mes teams, and 80’s only “fast runs”, you’ll have less and less time to experience the dungeon at the required level. Now we’ve established that 35’s can do it, we have to establish whether or not the community will change it’s stance and if those extra traits create that big of a gap between allowing or pushing away a low leveller.

People talking about redoing the story mode probably have never asked someone in the last 24 hours if they want to do storymode. I joined a guild that said they were pve friendly and liked doing runs with lowbies….I wanted to test my necro in the AC environment and NO-one would want to join me…so I ended up not doing it until I reached ~60.
Again, this is all about player perception and cooperation. How the hell are you going to do a story-mode when so few people want to join and do one too? How do you gain experience?

It’s always that catch 22. People will hardly let you join so you can gain experience, but in order to gain experience you need to have people let you join them.

Very true words. I agree wholeheartedly and hope there’s something that can be done to sway regular perceptions.

Maestro.5376:

Regarding the comments on Story Mode tokens, this is what Robert Hrouda had to say on the issue:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

We had them in story before launch, but what we found is that we couldn’t strike a balance between the amount we give for completing story mode, and the difficult difference. Our feedback was that rather than face the challenge of Explorable dungeons, high skill groups would just afk faceroll the much easier story mode content for the guaranteed smaller token amount. We tried several things, but couldn’t strike the balance, so we removed tokens from story mode as a reward and put them into explorable mode only as a reward.

I think a better solution would be to implement Rare Armor distribution from the Rare Armor Token set directly, and stop when the entire set had been awarded. This prevents people from spamming story mode for tokens, but also gives tangible rewards to players who enjoy Story Mode.

Besides that, perhaps the dungeon story modes could grant Influence for your guild, a moderate amount for replaying it with a bonus amount for playing through on a run that isn’t a re-run (so it’d have to be a 1st time run for someone in the group).

Since there’s more stuff to buy with influence (Guild Missions!) they could possibly adjust its distribution to favor Story Modes and a little less for other events to make this an attractive venue.

Months and months after release, and people are still complaining about this. Honestly, the game already has dungeons for people who want to take it easy. Play story modes. The players who want a real challenge deserve interesting content as well, and that is explorable mode.

I find it ridiculous that people always complain about those who want challenging content. “Wahhhh, not everyone is a hard core gamer who wants an actual challenge.” They are, of course, completely correct in that. However, the players who want a challenge are not arguing that the entire game should be tailored to them in this instance.

Those of you who are begging for easy-mode dungeon experiences on top of the existing story modes are the ones who want to dominate the game and force everyone else to play on your level. You have content that is perfectly easy. Now stop complaining and let there be challenging content as well.

Good work on your run., OP, but people are always going to complain because they have an extreme sense of entitlement.

Maestro.5376:

Liquid Storm.8097:

With skype/TS open….?
…

On a humorous note, I’d like to point out that the entirety of the run consisted of me yelling in panic in TS since I was really the only one that talked a lot (3 of the members didn’t have mics and the 4th was somewhat quiet). It was just 42 minutes of “whoooooah” “nnnnnehhhhh” and “oshioshioshibackupbackupbackup.” I don’t really think it contributed anything to our success except lighten the mood XD.
…

As one of Maestro’s best friends and frequent Skype-while-gw2-ing companion… this, 100% this. YOU HAVE NO IDEA how useless he is on Skype. The best parts are when he starts shouting “rez me, rez me!” After I’ve been dead since the beginning of a fight (usually cause someone… usually him… pulled while I was afk). Usually I end up threatening to hang up if he doesn’t stop talking

On a serious note… I’m still confused how this video is even news…. Is AC explorable really that hard? It’s designed to be run by lvl 35s…. This video just shows people completing the dungeon as intended. Not that there’s anything wrong with wanting to be a fully geared lvl 80 team and just steamroll it, that’s the group starter’s prerogative, but AC exp is totally doable by lvl 35 pugs. It may require a bit of effort, repeating a few bosses, and wiping once or twice until you figure out mechanics (it is difficult) but it’s totally doable. You’re not going to farm AC explorable at lvl 35 though, nor, I think, is it reasonable to expect that. It’s going to be difficult, as was the design intention for explorable mode dungeons from day one.

@Myrkkin: We did this to prove the mass of people wrong, at least on the forums. It seemed much easier than running it with level 80s w/ full exotic, and I had never played with any of the people before. And yeah, Maestro does scream loudly when down/dying/dead

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Ascalonian-Catacombs-is-too-hard-now/first#post1610393
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/What-are-you-guys-running-instead-of-AC-now
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/What-do-you-think-of-the-New-Ac/first#post1610341
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Return-to-the-original-AC/first#post1606278
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/the-NEW-AC/page/5#post1548911

….and there are many, many more.

Also, any dev response on AC? You guys aren’t going to tone it down, right?

Levistis.8356:

@Myrkkin: We did this to prove the mass of people wrong, at least on the forums….

Huh… usually I’m pretty sympathetic to people who have trouble with a dungeon (like to offer help/suggestions to make it more fun). I generally and genuinely don’t understand the problems people have with AC though.

Myrkkin.7921:

Levistis.8356:

@Myrkkin: We did this to prove the mass of people wrong, at least on the forums….

Huh… usually I’m pretty sympathetic to people who have trouble with a dungeon (like to offer help/suggestions to make it more fun). I generally and genuinely don’t understand the problems people have with AC though.

Many of us tried to give tips/tricks for the new AC on the forums and to people in-game, but many people rejected our help and said it was only possible on lvl 80s geared in exotics. No less. To prove them wrong since they would not listen, we ran it at lvl 35 in masterwork gear, with no issue (other than maestro dying :P).

I ran 3 newbies through this today, we wiped at the queen once because someone, on accident, pulled all the baby spiders – we did kholer/troll/burrows/howling king just fine. They had a nice time and added me as a friend. Before each fight I took a minute to type out the strat, and took time in battle to type if needed, that’s all it takes to teach most people.

Levistis.8356:

Also, any dev response on AC? You guys aren’t going to tone it down, right?

They responded to this (edit: a while back) when people initially complained:

All new stuff in dungeons is going to be hard for the first few days. We see it all the time with new content – people fail and get knocked down when they aren’t used to that sort of thing, and they claim it is too difficult.
Give it a week or so for everyone to develop strategies, learn encounters, and build fundamentals, and they will claim it is too easy. Trust me when I say this, the numbers are punishing (but less than they were before), but knowing the mechanics will greatly mitigate the danger. -Robert Hrouda

This is why I don’t get why you guys even did this. People made empty complaints about first time experiences that failed and people responded with things other than explanations on how to conquer the challenges.

It’s great that you guys took the time to do this don’t get me wrong though.

Myrkkin.7921:

Levistis.8356:

@Myrkkin: We did this to prove the mass of people wrong, at least on the forums….

Huh… usually I’m pretty sympathetic to people who have trouble with a dungeon (like to offer help/suggestions to make it more fun). I generally and genuinely don’t understand the problems people have with AC though.

It’s because a troll throws bouncing lightning balls. Something had to give…

Made up statistics everywhere!

@OP Good job :~)

I’ve watched the video, thank you for taking the effort to put this up.

The sad fact is: The elementalist doesnt know how to play her class. Alot of DPS was wasted, elite skills not used, auto attacking, not switching stance.

Alot of the parts of the dungeons were ran with sub-effective strategies.

The video was a pain to watch because your party waits forever before you do anything.

The pros: The party cleared it and while they ran it under sub-effective conditions, it further proofs AC can be ran by ANYBODY.

Lipin.7529:

I’ve watched the video, thank you for taking the effort to put this up.

The sad fact is: The elementalist doesnt know how to play her class. Alot of DPS was wasted, elite skills not used, auto attacking, not switching stance.

Alot of the parts of the dungeons were ran with sub-effective strategies.

The video was a pain to watch because your party waits forever before you do anything.

The pros: The party cleared it and while they ran it under sub-effective conditions, it further proofs AC can be ran by ANYBODY.

Thanks

However, in all fairness, we really tried to run it as if we knew no strategies… just clear everything (with the exception of the burrow order, kholer evades, and gathering the scepter pieces). Sorry the chat was covered up. I’m sure it would have added to the entertainment factor.

Also, these were all alts we put together in a couple of days Most of us didn’t even know when to optimally activate skills, etc.

But it was fun. Thanks for watching.

It’s good that it’s a little rough around the edges. Proves that you don’t need to have perfect play in order to complete the dungeon.

Lipin.7529:

I’ve watched the video, thank you for taking the effort to put this up.

The sad fact is: The elementalist doesnt know how to play her class. Alot of DPS was wasted, elite skills not used, auto attacking, not switching stance.

Alot of the parts of the dungeons were ran with sub-effective strategies.

The video was a pain to watch because your party waits forever before you do anything.

The pros: The party cleared it and while they ran it under sub-effective conditions, it further proofs AC can be ran by ANYBODY.

Lol what about the Ranger? He was certain people would comment on his inability to play and control his pet…he was mentioning this often enough but apparently he did good. No one’s said a peep yet

Seemed the elementalist made some expert use of Vapor Form, IMO.

But what about that Warrior? Sword/Sword? And several times he was just standing around not doing anything for a few seconds. And he used that bow quite a lot…

Hobocop.1508:

It’s good that it’s a little rough around the edges. Proves that you don’t need to have perfect play in order to complete the dungeon.

Rough around the edges? That was a pretty smooth run, IMO. Perhaps you’re used to speedruns where everyone performs scripted tactics?

Several times we stopped, it was for external reasons like tuning the volume of a mic or discussing if skipping was an option.

Not that I’m trying to argue the run was perfect, but give us some credit.

Mourningcry.9428:

Thanks

However, in all fairness, we really tried to run it as if we knew no strategies… just clear everything (with the exception of the burrow order, kholer evades, and gathering the scepter pieces). Sorry the chat was covered up. I’m sure it would have added to the entertainment factor.

Also, these were all alts we put together in a couple of days Most of us didn’t even know when to optimally activate skills, etc.

But it was fun. Thanks for watching.

Yes. After watching you sucking it up, I can no longer take your posts seriously, here and in the BLT subforums…

Kidding kidding.

Ursan.7846:

Yes. After watching you sucking it up, I can no longer take your posts seriously, here and in the BLT subforums…

Kidding kidding.

Lol. I can’t spend all my time trolling in BLT

No need to kid , always knew you were wise

Luke.2643:

Let me guess, they may become actually interesting to complete instead of a press 1, 1 and 1 to finish?

U mean in pre patch AC all u had to do was press 1. Yeah not buying it.

Sure P1 is doable with an a low lvl elementalist (if not 2 warriors will suffice) and with a PUG * (not a LFG Experienced 1337s in forum) group of lvl 35s – the problem is that the chance of success is 1 in 1000 for a PUG. I had done so many pugs and some with lvl 80s and yet they fail. If a bad player was at a higher level it would at least indicate that they were more likely experienced and not a noob who didnt know the mechanics of the dungeon, much less ICE BOW v the burrows.

Not to mention I was kicked out 1 time b4 the dungeon even started (no lvl stated in gw2lfg.com) simply because I was low lvl.

Maybe I should make videos of all the fails but I think that would take forever.

Its good that a few people enjoyed the changes because even with this video out, judging by GW2lfg.com, its going the way of CM exp.

P.S The definition of challenging would be carrying a bad party by yourself and winning. Some people’s solution is to join a guild but really it is not a solution if your guildies dont want run a particular dungeon.

Leo G.4501:

Hobocop.1508:

It’s good that it’s a little rough around the edges. Proves that you don’t need to have perfect play in order to complete the dungeon.

Rough around the edges? That was a pretty smooth run, IMO. Perhaps you’re used to speedruns where everyone performs scripted tactics?

Several times we stopped, it was for external reasons like tuning the volume of a mic or discussing if skipping was an option.

Not that I’m trying to argue the run was perfect, but give us some credit.

Emphasis being on the word ‘little’. It was a smooth run overall, though mistakes were made, and that’s fine, because it debunks the claims of a few around here that you need to play perfectly in order to finish the new AC. Besides, making mistakes is one of the strongest tools for learning, both for the players and those watching.

It also shows how despite getting caught by some of the deadlier telegraphed attacks that it is possible to recover and finish the fight.

P3 pls. And Grast isnt really bugged because that would make Colossus a faceroll which u guys really hate.

I had no idea how to play my mesmer. I just took everyones advice, and it seemed to work very well. Mesmers are fun.

I am down for P3, I’m sure our group could complete it. Let’s try to do it this weekend, how would the others fair on that?

..and Khal Drogo, if that is your definition of challenging, then I assume you never have fun, ever?

Khal Drogo.9631:

Luke.2643:

Let me guess, they may become actually interesting to complete instead of a press 1, 1 and 1 to finish?

U mean in pre patch AC all u had to do was press 1. Yeah not buying it.

Considering that pre patch I duoed both paths 1 and 3 in 17-18 mins, yes, maybe you should.

Levistis.8356:

I am down for P3, I’m sure our group could complete it. Let’s try to do it this weekend, how would the others fair on that?

I’d enjoy that. Probably wouldn’t have a bunch of people (well, there never was a bunch) watching to see if we succeed, but P3 is presumed harder than 1 and I think P2 is now the ‘hardest’ so yeah, I’d be down for running the other paths. Shouldn’t take very long

Leo G.4501:

Levistis.8356:

I am down for P3, I’m sure our group could complete it. Let’s try to do it this weekend, how would the others fair on that?

I’d enjoy that. Probably wouldn’t have a bunch of people (well, there never was a bunch) watching to see if we succeed, but P3 is presumed harder than 1 and I think P2 is now the ‘hardest’ so yeah, I’d be down for running the other paths. Shouldn’t take very long

Yeah, we should do either P2 or P3 with the same gear this weekend.