Guild Wars 2

No they may become more … empty. Just like AC now.

Hopefully what happens when they finally redesign cof

I hope CM is next on the fixbreaking list.

Also how’d you “fix” CoF? I assume your main problem is CoF1 because every tom kitten and harry mindlessly farm it for dosh.

Yeah, dungeons are meant only for pro players like you. Casual players don’t deserve to have the same fun.

Jesus, the more I read the less I like this community.

“Casual” does not mean “bad”. Bads don’t deserve anything.

Stop being bad, improve your game, step it up and you’ll see how FUN comes to you on its own.

That’s correct. Only the bestest deserve it.

Iehova.9518:

“Casual” does not mean “bad”. Bads don’t deserve anything.

Stop being bad, improve your game, step it up and you’ll see how FUN comes to you on its own.

You don’t know me to say anything about my game. But now I know you. You are an a—s—s

Morpheus.6401:

You don’t know me to say anything about my game. But now I know you. You are an a—s—s

Yep.

Iehova.9518:

“Casual” does not mean “bad”. Bads don’t deserve anything.

Stop being bad, improve your game, step it up and you’ll see how FUN comes to you on its own.

Agreed- Bad players are different from casuals.

Morpheus,

Examples of bad players can include: intentionally gimping themselves in poor gear sets (magic find), intentionally take the wrong utilities (an example being ranger not taking healing spring because they want their silly troll unguent or the other crappy heal skill, or a warrior in full signets because they are lazy) , charging off ahead of the team and dieing (trying to be the hero), Ignoring advise ( eg. telling mesmer to use Time warp at a certain point on a boss to make it more efficient, mesmer ignores advise), blaming others for their own failings ( eg. omg we are failing fotm 20! its because we don’t have a guardian or warrior, kitten you rangers and engineers!’ .. ‘we are failing shaman boss because you idiots aren’t using food! not because I’m a guardian and wont use reflect skills!’), Trying to facetank everything and failing, then blaming the game etc etc..

I might also include flaming at other players, be it in game or on the forums.

Example:

You don’t know me to say anything about my game. But now I know you. You are an a—s—s

^ These people do not deserve anything.

Casual players can include: People who have not played enough to know how a boss mechanic works, people who are inexperienced and do not know what to do once inside a dungeon, people who have not set up their gear/traits/utilities properly due to lack of understanding of what is required for a dungeon.

^These people deserve our time, patience and understanding.

Leo G.4501:

IndigoSundown.5419:

That’s not an accurate representation of the old AC. Old AC became easy because people learned it, not because the mobs were not fighting. Nor could it be done mindlessly — well except maybe for Ghost Eater. Although I remember one run having to revive the same guardian several times in the Ghost Eater fight. Your message will come though clearer if you do not let your passion for dungeons get in the way of your objectivity.

AlietteFaye put’s it pretty well. The reason it’s ‘hard’ now is because it’s unfamiliar (bugs aside). It will get easier as we proceed to hammer though it again and again like before.

Yes, I also said this before your video run. Maestro said that, “People don’t like change.” He is correct, many of them resist the kitten out of any change irl and in games.

Leo G.4501:

And again, I have no problem with having tutorial mini-dungeons in this game. But not tutorial dungeons that also award end-game rewards. Why? Because people will then farm the kitten out of them and do nothing else (see: CoF). There’s lots of potential for mini-dungeons in this game and that’s where I feel the learning should be because those rewards can be controlled without stifling those seeking those end-game rewards. Basically, I think if you want to farm something there should be work involved. Doing easy kitten dungeons is hardly work.

I’m going to differ here. Work should not be part of games. I’m not saying don’t have challenge. However, if the experience is one like you get “at work,” then most people are not going to think, “This is fun.” If you enjoy challenge, it should not be work, if you don’t enjoy challenge, if it’s not fun, then find something else to do. However, don’t tie the idea of pixel rewards to having to “work.”

With the exception of FotM, dungeons hardly provide end-game rewards these days. More players are farming them for gold than skins. Arah armor may still have some small amount of prestige attached to it. However, how many people are going to look at someone in CoF armor and think, “He must be a good player?”

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’m going to differ here. Work should not be part of games. I’m not saying don’t have challenge. However, if the experience is one like you get “at work,” then most people are not going to think, “This is fun.” If you enjoy challenge, it should not be work, if you don’t enjoy challenge, if it’s not fun, then find something else to do. However, don’t tie the idea of pixel rewards to having to “work.”

After I typed that, I figured the term work would be misconstrued.

When I mean work, I mean effort. That is to say, I’d say having the game automatically e-mail you tokens for any dungeon you enter every day, whether you actually beat the dungeon or just entered it and logged out, would not qualify as effort.

Also, having the dungeons nerfed to the last fight in Arah path 4 (seriously, that is a stupid easy fight you literally need no strategy for) basically amounts to no effort. And that’s what I mean. The old AC was boarderline Bloodstone as most of the bosses just meant ‘hit it till it dies, press dodge for this one attack’ (dodge for 2 things for Colossus).

The new AC certainly isn’t work. It’s not even that tough but you will be involved for these bosses (unless you kitten cheat which hopefully will soon be fixed).

Did I start a conspiracy theory in this thread? O_o.

In all seriousness, Liquid’s accusations should be made towards Arenanet instead. It was always their intent that not all parties would be able to complete explorable mode dungeons. Maybe you disagree with their philosophy, but personally I’m fine with it. It’s not necessary content, it doesn’t really contribute much to the lore of the world or the main storyline, it’s just there for people who like skins and/or a challenge.

As for Morpheus…I actually consider myself a casual now. I used to play pretty hardcore when the game came out, but now I just log on to do my dailies every day and that’s pretty much it. Maybe run a dungeon if my friends ask or something like what we planned on the forums happened. There’s no fundamental difference in skill level between a casual player and a hardcore player; I’ve met hardcore players that were terrible, and I’ve met casual players that were prodigies. It really just depends on how much effort a player is willing to put into their class to make it work.

I ran a pug and I liked it,
the glint of their black armor.
I ran a pug just to try it,
I hope my guild don’t mind it.
It felt so wrong,
it felt so right.
Don’t mean I’m a noob tonight.
I ran a pug and I liked it (I liked it).

Sorry but this should be stuck in others heads not just mine.

Hey, I just met you,
And this is crazy,
But here’s an invite,
So AC maybe?

Leo G.4501:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’m going to differ here. Work should not be part of games. I’m not saying don’t have challenge. However, if the experience is one like you get “at work,” then most people are not going to think, “This is fun.” If you enjoy challenge, it should not be work, if you don’t enjoy challenge, if it’s not fun, then find something else to do. However, don’t tie the idea of pixel rewards to having to “work.”

After I typed that, I figured the term work would be misconstrued.

When I mean work, I mean effort. That is to say, I’d say having the game automatically e-mail you tokens for any dungeon you enter every day, whether you actually beat the dungeon or just entered it and logged out, would not qualify as effort.

Also, having the dungeons nerfed to the last fight in Arah path 4 (seriously, that is a stupid easy fight you literally need no strategy for) basically amounts to no effort. And that’s what I mean. The old AC was boarderline Bloodstone as most of the bosses just meant ‘hit it till it dies, press dodge for this one attack’ (dodge for 2 things for Colossus).

The new AC certainly isn’t work. It’s not even that tough but you will be involved for these bosses (unless you kitten cheat which hopefully will soon be fixed).

Well, at least I gave you a chance to clarify. Effort is a better word for what you wanted to convey. I think the furor over the new AC is already dying down to some extent. Also, ANet does seem to be trying to make boss fights more interesting. I hope they leave CoF as is for now, and work on Honor of the Waves. Talk about boring boss fights, some of those sure are.

Maestro.5376:

Did I start a conspiracy theory in this thread? O_o.

In all seriousness, Liquid’s accusations should be made towards Arenanet instead. It was always their intent that not all parties would be able to complete explorable mode dungeons. Maybe you disagree with their philosophy, but personally I’m fine with it. It’s not necessary content, it doesn’t really contribute much to the lore of the world or the main storyline, it’s just there for people who like skins and/or a challenge.

I think this touches on one of the problems. The armor options for people who are not going to dungeon are decidedly lacking. There are some PvE skins that everyone has access to (crafted, leveling, drops, karma, cultural and order), and exclusive sets (dungeon). Exotic Karma armor uses the same skin across 5 temples and the Arah vendor. Many pre-exotic Karma armors use crafting skins, or are repeats of dropped armor skins. Exotic named armors (e.g., Rurik’s Legplates) all use the same skin (which I believe is shared with crafted). There really is not a ton of variety, and dungeon sets represent more variety.

That might have been fine pre-Ascended. The “prestige” of a look was supposed to represent end-game rewards. Ascended seems to be a shift away from cosmetic endgame, however.

I think the presumption was that more non-endgame looks might be coming. They have not. If ANet were to get on their armor-designing horse and put out some armor styles that people will like, and make them obtainable through something other than dungeon tokens, the pressure to make dungeons easier might loosen some. It wouldn’t eliminate it, but some people might think, “Oh, I don’t have to do content I dislike to get a look I like.”

IndigoSundown.5419:

I think this touches on one of the problems. The armor options for people who are not going to dungeon are decidedly lacking. There are some PvE skins that everyone has access to (crafted, leveling, drops, karma, cultural and order), and exclusive sets (dungeon). Exotic Karma armor uses the same skin across 5 temples and the Arah vendor. Many pre-exotic Karma armors use crafting skins, or are repeats of dropped armor skins. Exotic named armors (e.g., Rurik’s Legplates) all use the same skin (which I believe is shared with crafted). There really is not a ton of variety, and dungeon sets represent more variety.

That might have been fine pre-Ascended. The “prestige” of a look was supposed to represent end-game rewards. Ascended seems to be a shift away from cosmetic endgame, however.

I think the presumption was that more non-endgame looks might be coming. They have not. If ANet were to get on their armor-designing horse and put out some armor styles that people will like, and make them obtainable through something other than dungeon tokens, the pressure to make dungeons easier might loosen some. It wouldn’t eliminate it, but some people might think, “Oh, I don’t have to do content I dislike to get a look I like.”

If you examine how many options there are for non-dungeon sets, though, it isn’t actually as lacking as you think. So there are 8 dungeons in the game currently that have their own unique set.

For each armor class, you have:
5 tiers of crafted blues that all look different
1 Recipe vendor (Shadow set, etc) at least that sells a unique crafted skin
1 Temple set
1 Exotic Drop (which is different from the crafted set btw)
1 Exotic Crafted set
1 Rare Crafted set (Masquerade, etc)
4 Non-rare karma/drop sets at LEAST (Cabalist, Country, Swindler, etc.)
3 Cultural sets
3 Order sets

There are probably more that I haven’t thought of, but the number here alone trumps the number of dungeon sets. In fact, my Sylvari Necromancer wears the Shadow Set because I don’t like any of the dungeon skins for necros.

I don’t think armor diversity is the problem here. I think it’s just that most people prefer to get rewarded for doing little to no work, and any change from that status quo is going to create an outrage.

For casual players I meant those who can’t or just don’t want to spend 6-8 hours a day playing this game. They can be excellent players that just don’t play as much a hard core because of many reasons. Maybe he is not kids and have to work a lot, or maybe he plays other games too, or his girlfriend is a kitten. Who knows.

The thing is that some people think they are better than others and that really upsets me. Especially when they don’t any clue of who they are talking about.

Morpheus.6401:

For casual players I meant those who can’t or just don’t want to spend 6-8 hours a day playing this game. They can be excellent players that just don’t play as much a hard core because of many reasons. Maybe he is not kids and have to work a lot, or maybe he plays other games too, or his girlfriend is a kitten. Who knows.

The thing is that some people think they are better than others and that really upsets me. Especially when they don’t any clue of who they are talking about.

I’m starting to lose you here… what PvE contentare you referring to requires a 6-8hr day commitment?

If anything, GW2 offers a lot of options for people who have a limited amount of play time. Yet even in small amounts, they can still achieve some degree of progression towards a set goal.

If we’re going to focus specifically on dungeon instances, then I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a player to anticipate that they’ll need at least a good 1/2 hour to attempt an instance. Notice, I say “attempt” not finish. Even if the allocated time expires, hopefully that player has gained some level of experience that will allow better performance in later runs (i.e. learning). And I also don’t think it’s unreasonable for a brand new player to have to spend a good chunk of time initially learning an instance.

I would also go so far as to say it’s not unreasonable to expect a player to have acquired a good level of competence once they’re committed themselves to actually learning how to run an instance. And once done, they can do most runs in a reasonable amount of time – and by that I mean faaaar less then 6-8hrs.

haviz.1340:

That’s correct. Only the bestest deserve it.

Gold…

I wish I could farm these posts like a pack of zerk’ed warriors in COF P1…

Maestro.5376:

-snip-

I don’t think armor diversity is the problem here. I think it’s just that most people prefer to get rewarded for doing little to no work, and any change from that status quo is going to create an outrage.

Maybe you’re right about armor. I just know that very time I look at the stuff that’s available it all looks like the same old same old. Outside of dungeons, skins seem to get repeated a lot.

While there might be some people looking for a handout, I think that is getting to be a time-worn defense that does not apply to everyone you’d like to apply it to. The same holds with “elitist,” “no-life” and the other derogatory names applied in these endless circular arguments.

A lot of people do dungeons in other MMO’s and those dungeons are in every case I’ve seen not as hard as even old AC was. The learning curve was not as punishing. It was easier to pin down problems (tank isn’t holding aggro, healer isn’t keeping tank up, DPS is targeting wrong mob and drawing aggro, people are standing in fire). Add in some of the questionable design choices in GW2 dungeons like, “Why are trash mobs a harder fight than a lot of bosses?” At least some of these people are probably looking for a similar experience — not a handout — and GW2 does not provide it.

I’m with you on the need for challenge in GW2. However, falling back on tired rhetoric is not going to convince anyone of the rightness of your point of view except the people who already agree with you.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Maybe you’re right about armor. I just know that very time I look at the stuff that’s available it all looks like the same old same old. Outside of dungeons, skins seem to get repeated a lot.

Even WITH dungeon skins, I see the same sets repeated over and over. My Asura Mesmer currently wears a mix of CoE and Heritage armor. Over my entirety of time playing this game, I’ve only met 1 or 2 other players who wear even parts of the CoE set. CoF dungeon armor seems like the most prevalent.

Regarding Ascended, I am sure that this shift will not be away from cosmetic once armor/weapon becomes released. Trinkets weren’t cosmetic anyways, so it would make sense that they would be released first.

IndigoSundown.5419:

A lot of people do dungeons in other MMO’s and those dungeons are in every case I’ve seen not as hard as even old AC was. The learning curve was not as punishing. It was easier to pin down problems (tank isn’t holding aggro, healer isn’t keeping tank up, DPS is targeting wrong mob and drawing aggro, people are standing in fire). Add in some of the questionable design choices in GW2 dungeons like, “Why are trash mobs a harder fight than a lot of bosses?” At least some of these people are probably looking for a similar experience — not a handout — and GW2 does not provide it.

Let’s look at a standard for dungeon design (WoW), because as much as I’d like to bash on this certain game for its subscription model and long time-commitment, there’s no denying that its team does incredibly good dungeon design.

Myrkkin.7921:

As an aside… people who think WoW is easier than GW2 mystify me… did you not play during Vanilla, BC, or WotLK when many of the fights required absolute perfection for 15 solid minutes or you were going to be restarting? Nothing in GW2 required the kind of effort that WoW raid instances, or heroic dungeons did. I have no idea how it is now, I got tired of playing a game that required 30+ hours a week just to be competitive with other players.

So I’m not really sure where all the complaints that the dungeons in this game are massively harder than those in other games are coming from. It sounds like it comes from either players who have had little/no MMO dungeoning experience, or from players who have fallen back on cheap knockoffs made by companies rushing to get on the MMO WoW profit bandwagon and as a result implemented extremely shoddy excuses for “dungeons” that provided little to no challenge to players. I would know, I’ve played some of those games XD.

Morpheus.6401:

For casual players I meant those who can’t or just don’t want to spend 6-8 hours a day playing this game. They can be excellent players that just don’t play as much a hard core because of many reasons. Maybe he is not kids and have to work a lot, or maybe he plays other games too, or his girlfriend is a kitten. Who knows.

The thing is that some people think they are better than others and that really upsets me. Especially when they don’t any clue of who they are talking about.

You’re also starting to lose me here. I consider myself a casual, since I don’t play this game all that obsessively as when it first came out. But I’m not really seeing where your argument is going here.

can people stop complaining about this now?

Maestro.5376:

IndigoSundown.5419:

A lot of people do dungeons in other MMO’s and those dungeons are in every case I’ve seen not as hard as even old AC was. The learning curve was not as punishing. It was easier to pin down problems (tank isn’t holding aggro, healer isn’t keeping tank up, DPS is targeting wrong mob and drawing aggro, people are standing in fire). Add in some of the questionable design choices in GW2 dungeons like, “Why are trash mobs a harder fight than a lot of bosses?” At least some of these people are probably looking for a similar experience — not a handout — and GW2 does not provide it.

Let’s look at a standard for dungeon design (WoW), because as much as I’d like to bash on this certain game for its subscription model and long time-commitment, there’s no denying that its team does incredibly good dungeon design.

Myrkkin.7921:

As an aside… people who think WoW is easier than GW2 mystify me… did you not play during Vanilla, BC, or WotLK when many of the fights required absolute perfection for 15 solid minutes or you were going to be restarting? Nothing in GW2 required the kind of effort that WoW raid instances, or heroic dungeons did. I have no idea how it is now, I got tired of playing a game that required 30+ hours a week just to be competitive with other players.

So I’m not really sure where all the complaints that the dungeons in this game are massively harder than those in other games are coming from. It sounds like it comes from either players who have had little/no MMO dungeoning experience, or from players who have fallen back on cheap knockoffs made by companies rushing to get on the MMO WoW profit bandwagon and as a result implemented extremely shoddy excuses for “dungeons” that provided little to no challenge to players. I would know, I’ve played some of those games XD.

I did play WoW during late BC and Wrath. I can’t say I did all of the dungeons, as I only played the game for a little over a year. I did quite a few, though, including heroics. Maybe it was just me or the people I was playing with, but the dungeons didn’t seem hard once I made the adjustment from the short cast times of heals in GW1 to the longer ones in WoW. While leveling, we 3-manned many of the earlier vanilla ones.

Absolute perfection for 15 minutes? Maybe in raids before gear progression made them obsolete. The end boss in Naxxramas was a competence check on the healers while the DPS just had to, well, dps, and not get too close to each other.

I’ll give you that dungeons in WoW were harder than the few I saw in Rift and ToR, the two biggest recent knock-offs.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Maestro.5376:

IndigoSundown.5419:

A lot of people do dungeons in other MMO’s and those dungeons are in every case I’ve seen not as hard as even old AC was. The learning curve was not as punishing. It was easier to pin down problems (tank isn’t holding aggro, healer isn’t keeping tank up, DPS is targeting wrong mob and drawing aggro, people are standing in fire). Add in some of the questionable design choices in GW2 dungeons like, “Why are trash mobs a harder fight than a lot of bosses?” At least some of these people are probably looking for a similar experience — not a handout — and GW2 does not provide it.

Let’s look at a standard for dungeon design (WoW), because as much as I’d like to bash on this certain game for its subscription model and long time-commitment, there’s no denying that its team does incredibly good dungeon design.

Myrkkin.7921:

As an aside… people who think WoW is easier than GW2 mystify me… did you not play during Vanilla, BC, or WotLK when many of the fights required absolute perfection for 15 solid minutes or you were going to be restarting? Nothing in GW2 required the kind of effort that WoW raid instances, or heroic dungeons did. I have no idea how it is now, I got tired of playing a game that required 30+ hours a week just to be competitive with other players.

So I’m not really sure where all the complaints that the dungeons in this game are massively harder than those in other games are coming from. It sounds like it comes from either players who have had little/no MMO dungeoning experience, or from players who have fallen back on cheap knockoffs made by companies rushing to get on the MMO WoW profit bandwagon and as a result implemented extremely shoddy excuses for “dungeons” that provided little to no challenge to players. I would know, I’ve played some of those games XD.

I did play WoW during late BC and Wrath. I can’t say I did all of the dungeons, as I only played the game for a little over a year. I did quite a few, though, including heroics. Maybe it was just me or the people I was playing with, but the dungeons didn’t seem hard once I made the adjustment from the short cast times of heals in GW1 to the longer ones in WoW. While leveling, we 3-manned many of the earlier vanilla ones.

Absolute perfection for 15 minutes? Maybe in raids before gear progression made them obsolete. The end boss in Naxxramas was a competence check on the healers while the DPS just had to, well, dps, and not get too close to each other.

I’ll give you that dungeons in WoW were harder than the few I saw in Rift and ToR, the two biggest recent knock-offs.

Can’t talk about gear progression, since we’re talking on-level here. Level 80s scaled down to 35 don’t get as much gear progression as lvl 85s in WoW going back to do a lvl 60 raid, remember. So you’d have to talk about doing dungeons in WoW at the level they were meant to be done, or any experience you have is irrelevant.

Maestro.5376:

Morpheus.6401:

For casual players I meant those who can’t or just don’t want to spend 6-8 hours a day playing this game. They can be excellent players that just don’t play as much a hard core because of many reasons. Maybe he is not kids and have to work a lot, or maybe he plays other games too, or his girlfriend is a kitten. Who knows.

The thing is that some people think they are better than others and that really upsets me. Especially when they don’t any clue of who they are talking about.

You’re also starting to lose me here. I consider myself a casual, since I don’t play this game all that obsessively as when it first came out. But I’m not really seeing where your argument is going here.

It’s just some guys consider themselves hard core players and above all others. Don’t bother, I think I lost myself too due to some trash talk. Nothing to do with you or the video.

Maestro.5376:

Can’t talk about gear progression, since we’re talking on-level here. Level 80s scaled down to 35 don’t get as much gear progression as lvl 85s in WoW going back to do a lvl 60 raid, remember. So you’d have to talk about doing dungeons in WoW at the level they were meant to be done, or any experience you have is irrelevant.

The comment on progression was solely related to raids. If the WoW forums are correct (which is in itself questionable), Blizzard dumbed down dungeons as time went on. Maybe that had already happened when I was there, I don’t know. Maybe I just was blessed with really good tanks for a year. I just know what I experienced. I may be wrong as far as actual numbers are concerned, but the subjective experience is what it is.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Maestro.5376:

Can’t talk about gear progression, since we’re talking on-level here. Level 80s scaled down to 35 don’t get as much gear progression as lvl 85s in WoW going back to do a lvl 60 raid, remember. So you’d have to talk about doing dungeons in WoW at the level they were meant to be done, or any experience you have is irrelevant.

The comment on progression was solely related to raids. If the WoW forums are correct (which is in itself questionable), Blizzard dumbed down dungeons as time went on. Maybe that had already happened when I was there, I don’t know. Maybe I just was blessed with really good tanks for a year. I just know what I experienced. I may be wrong as far as actual numbers are concerned, but the subjective experience is what it is.

happened twice over TBC, huge swaths of nerfs. mob HP, mob damage, mod level, mob type across all dungeons. this along with the rightful changes to talent trees and gear(good itemization and better talents and scaling meant more DPS achieved, mnore healing and better threa generated) back then made virtually every dungeon lik CoF path 1. the exceptions were underbog, steamvaults and shadow labs which still had several mob packs with more than on strong enemy in them, and the massive amount of bad tanks which still infests the playerbase to this day made pugging those taboo.

that’s why people in any MMO today expect a 5 minute dungeon run, do not speak and do not res or help out others. WoW made sure you almost never were killed unless you were exceptionally bad, you of course didn’t have to look out for yourself, CC was not necessary at all since mid 2007 outside of raiding and very few heroics. and since you overgeared everything at a certain point that helped add a new layer of mindlessness.

Bravo – I challenged the developers to show this could be done. I stand corrected, I guess this is tuned properly.

fony.5102:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Maestro.5376:

Can’t talk about gear progression, since we’re talking on-level here. Level 80s scaled down to 35 don’t get as much gear progression as lvl 85s in WoW going back to do a lvl 60 raid, remember. So you’d have to talk about doing dungeons in WoW at the level they were meant to be done, or any experience you have is irrelevant.

The comment on progression was solely related to raids. If the WoW forums are correct (which is in itself questionable), Blizzard dumbed down dungeons as time went on. Maybe that had already happened when I was there, I don’t know. Maybe I just was blessed with really good tanks for a year. I just know what I experienced. I may be wrong as far as actual numbers are concerned, but the subjective experience is what it is.

happened twice over TBC, huge swaths of nerfs. mob HP, mob damage, mod level, mob type across all dungeons. this along with the rightful changes to talent trees and gear(good itemization and better talents and scaling meant more DPS achieved, mnore healing and better threa generated) back then made virtually every dungeon lik CoF path 1. the exceptions were underbog, steamvaults and shadow labs which still had several mob packs with more than on strong enemy in them, and the massive amount of bad tanks which still infests the playerbase to this day made pugging those taboo.

that’s why people in any MMO today expect a 5 minute dungeon run, do not speak and do not res or help out others. WoW made sure you almost never were killed unless you were exceptionally bad, you of course didn’t have to look out for yourself, CC was not necessary at all since mid 2007 outside of raiding and very few heroics. and since you overgeared everything at a certain point that helped add a new layer of mindlessness.

Thanks for the info. This would certainly explain why I was perceiving that other MMO dungeons were easier than GW2’s. Perhaps it was the vanilla/early BC stuff that was harder and that is what the other posters are remembering.

/derail end

I have been cheering for you guys, but only had the time to see the video now. Great job!

fony.5102:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Maestro.5376:

Can’t talk about gear progression, since we’re talking on-level here. Level 80s scaled down to 35 don’t get as much gear progression as lvl 85s in WoW going back to do a lvl 60 raid, remember. So you’d have to talk about doing dungeons in WoW at the level they were meant to be done, or any experience you have is irrelevant.

The comment on progression was solely related to raids. If the WoW forums are correct (which is in itself questionable), Blizzard dumbed down dungeons as time went on. Maybe that had already happened when I was there, I don’t know. Maybe I just was blessed with really good tanks for a year. I just know what I experienced. I may be wrong as far as actual numbers are concerned, but the subjective experience is what it is.

happened twice over TBC, huge swaths of nerfs. mob HP, mob damage, mod level, mob type across all dungeons. this along with the rightful changes to talent trees and gear(good itemization and better talents and scaling meant more DPS achieved, mnore healing and better threa generated) back then made virtually every dungeon lik CoF path 1. the exceptions were underbog, steamvaults and shadow labs which still had several mob packs with more than on strong enemy in them, and the massive amount of bad tanks which still infests the playerbase to this day made pugging those taboo.

that’s why people in any MMO today expect a 5 minute dungeon run, do not speak and do not res or help out others. WoW made sure you almost never were killed unless you were exceptionally bad, you of course didn’t have to look out for yourself, CC was not necessary at all since mid 2007 outside of raiding and very few heroics. and since you overgeared everything at a certain point that helped add a new layer of mindlessness.

And this is, of course, what people want to happen to GW2. Honestly, it is probably (in part) why WoW became quite as popular as it did. It attracted a bunch of super-casual gamers who enjoyed not having a serious challenge to progress and single-player gamers who did not want to have to go out of their way to communicate with people and foster a community. Unfortunately, a lot of these players are now expecting every MMO to cater to them, and many have for years because of that.

I am glad ANet does not go out of its way to cater to them, and I hope they continue to resist doing so. There is plenty of content for people to sleepwalk through. They do NOT need to try and dumb down pretty much the only things that require particularly active thought to complete.

Oolune.4357:

I am glad ANet does not go out of its way to cater to them, and I hope they continue to resist doing so. There is plenty of content for people to sleepwalk through. They do NOT need to try and dumb down pretty much the only things that require particularly active thought to complete.

I think they should mold the open world for this type of content. It feels perfect too. They should introduce not only mini-dungeons but rewards unique to this content so that the non-twitch gamers have their own type of rewards for their runs, and the advanced players have their dungeon tokens while the PvPers have their PvP rewards, so on and so forth.

I guess there is Karma vendors and stuff…I dunno, the idea needs more thought.

Leo G.4501:

Oolune.4357:

I am glad ANet does not go out of its way to cater to them, and I hope they continue to resist doing so. There is plenty of content for people to sleepwalk through. They do NOT need to try and dumb down pretty much the only things that require particularly active thought to complete.

I think they should mold the open world for this type of content. It feels perfect too. They should introduce not only mini-dungeons but rewards unique to this content so that the non-twitch gamers have their own type of rewards for their runs, and the advanced players have their dungeon tokens while the PvPers have their PvP rewards, so on and so forth.

I guess there is Karma vendors and stuff…I dunno, the idea needs more thought.

I’m fine with them having open world stuff like this for those that aren’t made for the dungeon experience that ANet is trying to go towards. The problem, however, is that a portion of the community (consisting mostly of entitled whiners) feel that every aspect of the game should be catered and molded to fit the effort level to reward ratio that they are willing to put in.

I’ve ran old AC enough times to get the Exotic set and Gift of Ascalon (~30 tedious runs). Not only do I enjoy running the new AC but I also enjoy running it with people unfamiliar with it. The mechanics are just much more engaging.

The dungeon still needs some tweaks before it is perfect, but to the people that are complaining that the dungeon is impossible here are some useful tips:

-Come to the realization that your aren’t as good as you think you are. Old AC and many of the other dungeons and open world monsters have infused this idea that you are the best <Insert Class> to ever step foot into Tyria. After all you finished your personal story and beat Zhaitan, so the only logical conclusion is that you are a fantastic GW2 player, right?

-If you are continuously wiping consider trying a new build or skill set. A well designed dungeon will force you (both the individual and the group) to adjust your play style.

-Don’t stand in AoEs.

-Learn to Dodge. The more drawn out and obvious a channel is, the more likely it is to one shot you.

-Learn to read the buffs and text on mobs.

-Learn self-criticism.

-Learn your class. Learn your combo field and finishers. Learn them for other classes too. You don’t need coordination to make combos in a group, just one person that knows what they are doing. And combos can be very helpful.

If any of the things I’ve listed are too complicated, too time consuming, or beyond the level of effort you care to put into GW2, then I suggest that you stop running dungeons and stop complaining on the forums about the dungeons being too complicated since you clearly lack any understanding of the niche that dungeons are meant to fill. Stick to world events where you just have to stand next to someone’s foot and spam the 1-skill while AFKing.

I also hope that they revamp the other dungeons in a similar manner.

I’ve read through this whole thread, and some of it more then once and one thing I can say for sure is neither side is going to convert the other over to their point of view.

I could make this really long winded but most people won’t read it anyway so at the risk of being blunt here is my opinion on the state of things as they are now.

Anet has accomplished exactly what they set out to do. They have actually created a skill gate for AC explorer, and here is the truly hard thing about discussing this on the forums. As players of different skill give their opinions on this, they project their skill level, their circumstances on to everyone else. It is a classic human trait.

Those that have an above average skill tend to view those calling the dungeon too hard as players who just want an ‘easy’ dungeon. Because to them, the dungeon is not too hard, and if it were made any easier, it would be ‘easy’ for them.

To those with average to below average skill actually find the dungeon too hard! So when they say it is too hard. It IS too hard to THEM.

Because here is the thing, Maestro’s group DID prove something. They proved it could be done with minimum level classes using modest gear.

So another group using the exact same resources CAN accomplish the exact same thing. The ONLY variables are the players themselves.

Maestro’s group also did it with out a single wipe. You know what, if it would have taken their group hours and hours, and 20+ wipes I would have had to say, “You know what, it probably is too hard.” But if a group of skilled players can do this with out a wipe then there is a whole lot of breathing room for players with less skill.

Now if you don’t have the patients or the time to wipe a dozen times to complete a dungeon, the dungeon isn’t putting those limitations on you, you are putting those limitations on yourself.

(So far in all the dungeons I’ve completed I have not done so with out wiping at least 5 times.)

People say Maestro’s group wasn’t a PUG, it was organized. Honestly it wasn’t anymore organized then going to the LFG website and getting 5 people, BUT even so…

..if exp more is not PUG friendly, does that make it broken? I say ‘No.’ I say, maybe you have to start amassing a friends list of like minding people with similar skills to call upon when you want to complete a dungeon.

You need to pick and choose your people. And I don’t meed say “Only 80 plz.” You can craft yourself to 80 so how smart is it to make that a deciding factor in who runs this skill capped dungeon with you? It isn’t level capped at 80, it is SKILL CAPPED, so find SKILLED people.

If I need 5 people to move a washing machine from my driveway to my basement and I had a house full of people of all ages, all sizes all strengths. I wouldn’t pull in the driveway with this washing machine in the back of my truck and yell from the driveway..

“HEY! CAN I GET 5 PEOPLE OUT HERE TO HELP ME RIGHT NOW!? 5 PEOPLE, ANY 5 WILL DO, JUST GET OUT HERE.”

No because I know I need people with a certain amount of strength to be able to lift that washer and no one get hurt. If I get even one person that can hold up their side of the washer, we can all go for a ‘wipe’ down the stairs.

So why is it surprising to you that PUG’ing an skill capped exp dungeon. A dungeon that was just made intentionally harder by the Dev’s is like getting your 12 year old niece to help you carry a washing machine down the stairs?

Now I know we live in a world where no one wants to hear they aren’t as good at something then someone else. I know we are all good in our own ways. I know that everyone has the ‘potential’ for greatness. I know that we try to be so politically correct these days that anyone who says they are better at the game then someone else is an ‘elitist’, but guess what; There ARE people better then you at this game! They CAN do things you can’t. And AC exp might just be one of them.

That is what Anet has created here. A skill cap. A line in the sand. Does it separate the player base? Yup. That is working as intended.

That is what this small small small portion of the content has been created for. Highly skilled, highly motivated.

So you can either invest what it takes to get there, or you can continue to play the 90% of the content that has been created for EVERYONE to enjoy.

… kitten that was long winded. shrug.

CryxTryx.9208:

I could make this really long winded but most people won’t read it anyway so at the risk of being blunt here is my opinion on the state of things as they are now.
…
.. kitten that was long winded. shrug.

Yeah, I think you failed at the ‘being blunt’ part

But nicely worded. I’d like to try and not be one of the people you described at the beginning, as I have been swayed by the opposing argument and feel that content could be generated at bridging the PvE content difficulty gap.

I’m just of the opinion that it shouldn’t be AC exp because the rewards you can obtain from it are more closely end-game linked and therefore should reflect those rewards in its difficulty. Other mini-dungeons could be made/modified for that purpose while keeping the explorable dungeons’ difficulty consistent (when they finally adjust all the dungeon content properly).

Oolune.4357:

fony.5102:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Maestro.5376:

Can’t talk about gear progression, since we’re talking on-level here. Level 80s scaled down to 35 don’t get as much gear progression as lvl 85s in WoW going back to do a lvl 60 raid, remember. So you’d have to talk about doing dungeons in WoW at the level they were meant to be done, or any experience you have is irrelevant.

The comment on progression was solely related to raids. If the WoW forums are correct (which is in itself questionable), Blizzard dumbed down dungeons as time went on. Maybe that had already happened when I was there, I don’t know. Maybe I just was blessed with really good tanks for a year. I just know what I experienced. I may be wrong as far as actual numbers are concerned, but the subjective experience is what it is.

happened twice over TBC, huge swaths of nerfs. mob HP, mob damage, mod level, mob type across all dungeons. this along with the rightful changes to talent trees and gear(good itemization and better talents and scaling meant more DPS achieved, mnore healing and better threa generated) back then made virtually every dungeon lik CoF path 1. the exceptions were underbog, steamvaults and shadow labs which still had several mob packs with more than on strong enemy in them, and the massive amount of bad tanks which still infests the playerbase to this day made pugging those taboo.

that’s why people in any MMO today expect a 5 minute dungeon run, do not speak and do not res or help out others. WoW made sure you almost never were killed unless you were exceptionally bad, you of course didn’t have to look out for yourself, CC was not necessary at all since mid 2007 outside of raiding and very few heroics. and since you overgeared everything at a certain point that helped add a new layer of mindlessness.

And this is, of course, what people want to happen to GW2. Honestly, it is probably (in part) why WoW became quite as popular as it did. It attracted a bunch of super-casual gamers who enjoyed not having a serious challenge to progress and single-player gamers who did not want to have to go out of their way to communicate with people and foster a community. Unfortunately, a lot of these players are now expecting every MMO to cater to them, and many have for years because of that.

I am glad ANet does not go out of its way to cater to them, and I hope they continue to resist doing so. There is plenty of content for people to sleepwalk through. They do NOT need to try and dumb down pretty much the only things that require particularly active thought to complete.

let the open world be this way, keep dungeons at least something you have to pay attention to.

CryxTryx.9208:

snip

I read all of it, as long winded as it was, and agree. That is the very point we are trying to make: Group A wants AC to be easy because they want a dungeon they can run so that they can enjoy every aspect of the game. Group B wants the dungeon to be difficult enough so that the barrier to entry requires a certain level of skill or motivation to complete.

Another thing I couldn’t agree more on is that dungeons require a coordinated group. At the beginning you are always going to pug, but if a dungeon is difficult then you can be sure that you will be more likely to friend people that you get along with, as opposed to WoW where I hardly ever friended people I pugged with in LFD.

Maestro.5376:

First of all the video link:
http://www.twitch.tv/aliettefaye/b/376274889

Secondly, Impressions:

Our group makeup was:
Guardian
Mesmer
Warrior
Elementalist
Ranger

The run went a LOT more smoothly than runs with other level 80s I’ve been with. In fact, everything seemed to die a lot faster than I remember it, since this is the first time I’ve properly cleared trash in a very long time. We did not wipe, and had only one defeated (me since I’m pretty bad at Ranger XD).

But overall, I felt like it was just another dungeon run. It wasn’t OMG over the top, and felt like a pretty fun experience that I’d want to do again.

I’m not impressed.

Try it with a condition damage warrior, a condition damage engineer, two guardians, and a necromancer.

Picking the ideal party makeup for the instance and saying it’s not so bad is like bringing bullet piercing armor to fight kevlar.

I don’t care if it was intentional or not, your makeup was everything you needed to make that as easy on you as it possibly could be without taking five zerk warriors.

CardsLafter.3698:

Try it with a condition damage warrior…

Well the warrior was a condition warrior. I should know, since I was playing in that group. Sword/Sword + Lonbow with Power/Condition Damage gear

CardsLafter.3698:

I’m not impressed.

Try it with a condition damage warrior, a condition damage engineer, two guardians, and a necromancer.

Picking the ideal party makeup for the instance and saying it’s not so bad is like bringing bullet piercing armor to fight kevlar.

I don’t care if it was intentional or not, your makeup was everything you needed to make that as easy on you as it possibly could be without taking five zerk warriors.

It’s been a while, but thinking back to traiting/skills/equip, I really don’t think a real “build” could be done with any of the classes (the ones we took, or suggested). At 35, with 24(?) trait points available, and havingn access limited to Adept level traits, I don’t see much specialization taking place.

I may be wrong, but a target build, vs generic probably wouldn’t have made a noticible difference.

And as a note, the run wasn’t meant to impress anyone. It was done simply to prove that AC exp is a lvl 35 instance.

I personally have little doubt that party of that composition could do the run. Especially if done at level where traiting would make a difference.

Having a party that is primarily focused on condition damage will likely fail. Don’t blame a dungeon for poor group choice.

I didn’t watch the video, but assuming the elementalist used ice bow. Then the whole video is moot. Ice bow as far as i’m concerned is a bug exploit, no different then sniping a mob that can’t hit you.

SwickHobo.5096:

I didn’t watch the video, but assuming the elementalist used ice bow. Then the whole video is moot. Ice bow as far as i’m concerned is a bug exploit, no different then sniping a mob that can’t hit you.

Had to go back and briefly skim through the fights to see what the group used… from what i saw, ice bow wasn’t used except for the burrows.

If that invalidates the entire run, well, ya got me. Could it have been done without it? To our Elementalist’s credit, I wouldn’t doubt it for a minute. To do so would not only discredit the Ele, but the rest of the group as well..

After briefly looking through your posts, you seem well versed enough to realize that a run wouldn’t hinge upon the use of a single skill in one part of the run. But hey, I’ve been wrong before. I’ll let those who watch the vid judge for themselves.

Edit: Actually, thinking it over a bit, it’s an ice bow of a level 35, not that of a level 80 Ele scaled down to level 35. I don’t know enough to say how much of a factor that is, but perhaps someone who does can chime in.

People still beating this dead horse? Good to know that all the work and effort we put into running the dungeon at the lowest level possible was useful.

Hmm, why are people still posting in this thread?

Frankly, if people want to backtrack to move the goalpost for something already proven, well, it’s just arguing about stuff no one cares about anymore. By now, I doubt people are crying AC exp is too hard anymore.

They are. There’s a new thread every couple of days.

Am I the only one here who thinks AC actually got easier??

I quite appreciate the testing and find that it fits fairly well with my own experience. I do feel, however, that proving level 35ish characters can handle the content as well as downscaled level 80 characters is only one piece of the puzzle. Thus why we still have ongoing discussions about the issues found in the revamped AC.

George Steel.1804:

Am I the only one here who thinks AC actually got easier??

If the groups know basic dungeon/class mechanics then yes it did get easier.