Guild Wars 2

IamDuddits.1692:

Ayrilana.1396:

You’d have to teach people what skills are cc as well.

Every attack he does has a CC component lol. I’m not sure what you mean.

I was referring to the comment about defiant. I probably should have quoted him.

Ayrilana.1396:

IamDuddits.1692:

Ayrilana.1396:

You’d have to teach people what skills are cc as well.

Every attack he does has a CC component lol. I’m not sure what you mean.

I was referring to the comment about defiant. I probably should have quoted him.

It’s certainly a good point. A lot of people don’t know what Defiant even is (even though there is a tool tip if you hover over it) because you never are required to.

A good way of teaching CC chaining would be to combine Defiant with some channeled ability that has to be interrupted. It could be doable in AC. Maybe have a boss that heals a large portion of his hit points and converts all conditions to boons (this would be to prevent people from just throwing poison on to circumvent the mechanic) if not interrupted, but for a damage perspective he could be rather tame. It’d give the group an opportunity to figure out what needs to be done without causing a wipe if they miss the interrupt.

Another solid addition to the teaching tools would simply be to have the NPCs that are present in each of the fights able to give direction. They already do this for the world boss fights with NPCs present to some degree. They don’t have to spell out the strategy, but could at least make comments that point the players in the right direction.

I would remake most of the “skill point challenges” to actually teach the player some game basics like boons, stunbreakers, condition removal, defiant, …
It would also be interesting to attach some hint windows to them.

Vargamonth.2047:

I would remake most of the “skill point challenges” to actually teach the player some game basics like boons, stunbreakers, condition removal, defiant, …
It would also be interesting to attach some hint windows to them.

It’s sad that it would have to come to that. It’s as if people don’t read tool tips. Actually, yea if people are too lazy to learn the mechanics then they are probably too lazy to read the tool tips too.

On a more constructive note, instead of doing that for a skill point just make it a daily. They already do that for dodge and they attempted to do it for Combos before removing it. If they made “Remove X Stacks of Defiant” it would at the very least get a portion of people to realize that Defiant exists and what it does. They still need to incorporate it as a mechanic in fights as it really only acts as a defense to permastun on bosses.

NvN.4321:

It’s a kitten first dungeon. It should be easy.

It still is. You need to learn the mechanics. Being the first dungeon does not mean you can just faceroll through it like before.

NvN.4321:

It shouldn’t be harder than bloody Arah.

Have you played Arah? You probably should and you’ll see Arah is much more difficult.

NvN.4321:

With high end geared grp we couldn’t save Hodgins after 6 th try. It’s pain in the kitten.

Gear does not replace player skill.

NvN.4321:

We all had to use crowd control skills just so we could save his NPC kitten then wait recharges to wear off.

Learn the mechanics of the fight. Do not go near Hodges during the entire defense event. Go around him. The one defending him should fight at the entrance to the room. Stability helps a lot as well as stun breakers.

NvN.4321:

Spider 2 hits you and spaws poison fileds that last for 129784487418RANT seconds.

Condition removal. Don’t stand in it.

NvN.4321:

It’s a kitten first dungeon. It should be easy.

No it shouldn’t.

It shouldn’t be harder than bloody Arah.

No it’s not.

With high end geared grp we couldn’t save Hodgins after 6 th try. It’s pain in the kitten.

Maybe it’s your skill, and not the group or the dungeon.

We all had to use crowd control skills just so we could save his NPC kitten then wait recharges to wear off.

You mean you had to use crowd control to control mobs? No way. Next thing you are going to tell me is you had to use stun breaks to break stuns. Oh wait….

Troll one hits you.

Only if you don’t dodge his obvious attack.

Kholer one hits you.

Only if you don’t dodge his obvious attack.

Spider 2 hits you…

Only if you don’t dodge her obvious attack or you face tank without condition removal/blocks.

and spaws poison fileds that last for 129784487418RANT seconds.

Don’t stand in obvious AoEs

Balance it. I’m out.

Learn to play.

I personally thought CoE was harder than AC, AC was well easy.

AC is a level 35 dungeon, but I can’t level my characters there anymore. It is way harder to do AC with a level 35 character than doing arah(explorable) with a level 80. Earlier I tried AC p2, and the final boss is just frustrating and we ended up quiting the run. Since the update I have not done AC nearly as much as I used to. If it is a low level dungeon, then let only low levels do it and not make it so hard that only level 80s can complete it. Because now there isn’t any dungeon for level 35s

Seigfried.5938:

AC is a level 35 dungeon, but I can’t level my characters there anymore. It is way harder to do AC with a level 35 character than doing arah(explorable) with a level 80. Earlier I tried AC p2, and the final boss is just frustrating and we ended up quiting the run. Since the update I have not done AC nearly as much as I used to. If it is a low level dungeon, then let only low levels do it and not make it so hard that only level 80s can complete it. Because now there isn’t any dungeon for level 35s

Been seeing this for months on end now. Stop saying that it’s harder for level 35 characters when it’s definitely not the case.

I love how every argument is just “be better at the game”. The point is that some people just aren’t that good at gaming. AC before was really easy but if you didn’t dodgeroll you got killed. That was perfect. You could bring your noob/low level friends in it when you wanted to do something fun with them and not have to play too seriously. There is a reason that AC is played like 10% as often as it used to be. It is no longer noob-friendly. When a dungeon is reformed the goal should be to get more people into playing it (dungeons like hotw and cm), not less. They took the easy noob-friendly dungeon and just turned it into the rest of the dungeons that are boring and don’t cater to less skilled players. I have no issue with it because it really isn’t that difficult for me, but I can also recognize that some people enjoyed it because they aren’t as serious about gaming as I am. It just strikes me as bizarre that they made AC more difficult and Arah easier. I’m all for making the higher end content more difficult, but not the beginner content. And before you say it isn’t more difficult for lower levels, try to remember how often it used to be run compared to how often it’s run now.

Syn Sity.5826:

I love how every argument is just “be better at the game”. The point is that some people just aren’t that good at gaming. AC before was really easy but if you didn’t dodgeroll you got killed. That was perfect. You could bring your noob/low level friends in it when you wanted to do something fun with them and not have to play too seriously. There is a reason that AC is played like 10% as often as it used to be. It is no longer noob-friendly. When a dungeon is reformed the goal should be to get more people into playing it (dungeons like hotw and cm), not less. They took the easy noob-friendly dungeon and just turned it into the rest of the dungeons that are boring and don’t cater to less skilled players. I have no issue with it because it really isn’t that difficult for me, but I can also recognize that some people enjoyed it because they aren’t as serious about gaming as I am. It just strikes me as bizarre that they made AC more difficult and Arah easier. I’m all for making the higher end content more difficult, but not the beginner content. And before you say it isn’t more difficult for lower levels, try to remember how often it used to be run compared to how often it’s run now.

Dungeons weren’t meant to be friendly. This was advertised several times by the game designers. They wanted explorable dungeons to only be completed by coordinated groups that played well. That is almost literally what they said they intended the dungeons to be like.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Seigfried.5938:

AC is a level 35 dungeon, but I can’t level my characters there anymore. It is way harder to do AC with a level 35 character than doing arah(explorable) with a level 80. Earlier I tried AC p2, and the final boss is just frustrating and we ended up quiting the run. Since the update I have not done AC nearly as much as I used to. If it is a low level dungeon, then let only low levels do it and not make it so hard that only level 80s can complete it. Because now there isn’t any dungeon for level 35s

Been seeing this for months on end now. Stop saying that it’s harder for level 35 characters when it’s definitely not the case.

Are you sure it’s not hard for a group of level 35s to run the AC? Because it is HARD period.. Oh, wait, you may one of those elite players. Not everyone are like you ok? The weak players don’t have your kind of reflexes and also hand eye coordination. Some are just casual players.

And don’t give me that “Casual players” should not play this game or whatever excuses. Casual players also pay for this game, you also pay for this game, so does everyone else who plays this game. I have been in failed AC runs, I have been in AC runs that skipped many mobs and I have been in AC runs that runs for hours to complete. I also have been in AC runs where the group I am in just crushed everything that moves. I am sure that AC is NOT for players in the range of level 35 – 45.They will never survive without some level 80s with them. Unless they know how to skip here and exploit there. Or they are all elite players with level 80s but are leveling their level 35s.

The devs should re-lable the dungeon to level 45 and above. TA to level 65 and above…and some level 80s ONLY.

SirDrygan.1823:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Seigfried.5938:

AC is a level 35 dungeon, but I can’t level my characters there anymore. It is way harder to do AC with a level 35 character than doing arah(explorable) with a level 80. Earlier I tried AC p2, and the final boss is just frustrating and we ended up quiting the run. Since the update I have not done AC nearly as much as I used to. If it is a low level dungeon, then let only low levels do it and not make it so hard that only level 80s can complete it. Because now there isn’t any dungeon for level 35s

Been seeing this for months on end now. Stop saying that it’s harder for level 35 characters when it’s definitely not the case.

Are you sure it’s not hard for a group of level 35s to run the AC? Because it is HARD period.. Oh, wait, you may one of those elite players. Not everyone are like you ok? The weak players don’t have your kind of reflexes and also hand eye coordination. Some are just casual players.

And don’t give me that “Casual players” should not play this game or whatever excuses. Casual players also pay for this game, you also pay for this game, so does everyone else who plays this game. I have been in failed AC runs, I have been in AC runs that skipped many mobs and I have been in AC runs that runs for hours to complete. I also have been in AC runs where the group I am in just crushed everything that moves. I am sure that AC is NOT for players in the range of level 35 – 45.They will never survive without some level 80s with them. Unless they know how to skip here and exploit there. Or they are all elite players with level 80s but are leveling their level 35s.

The devs should re-lable the dungeon to level 45 and above. TA to level 65 and above…and some level 80s ONLY.

I didn’t say it wasn’t hard. I said it was not any harder for a level 35 than it is for a level 80. I was one of the volunteers that disproved everybody’s theory that it was “impossible” for a group of level 35 characters to complete the dungeon. Everybody in the group, myself included, agreed that it felt easier on 35s than it was on our downscaled 80s.

AlietteFaye.7316:

SirDrygan.1823:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Seigfried.5938:

AC is a level 35 dungeon, but I can’t level my characters there anymore. It is way harder to do AC with a level 35 character than doing arah(explorable) with a level 80. Earlier I tried AC p2, and the final boss is just frustrating and we ended up quiting the run. Since the update I have not done AC nearly as much as I used to. If it is a low level dungeon, then let only low levels do it and not make it so hard that only level 80s can complete it. Because now there isn’t any dungeon for level 35s

Been seeing this for months on end now. Stop saying that it’s harder for level 35 characters when it’s definitely not the case.

Are you sure it’s not hard for a group of level 35s to run the AC? Because it is HARD period.. Oh, wait, you may one of those elite players. Not everyone are like you ok? The weak players don’t have your kind of reflexes and also hand eye coordination. Some are just casual players.

And don’t give me that “Casual players” should not play this game or whatever excuses. Casual players also pay for this game, you also pay for this game, so does everyone else who plays this game. I have been in failed AC runs, I have been in AC runs that skipped many mobs and I have been in AC runs that runs for hours to complete. I also have been in AC runs where the group I am in just crushed everything that moves. I am sure that AC is NOT for players in the range of level 35 – 45.They will never survive without some level 80s with them. Unless they know how to skip here and exploit there. Or they are all elite players with level 80s but are leveling their level 35s.

The devs should re-lable the dungeon to level 45 and above. TA to level 65 and above…and some level 80s ONLY.

I didn’t say it wasn’t hard. I said it was not any harder for a level 35 than it is for a level 80. I was one of the volunteers that disproved everybody’s theory that it was “impossible” for a group of level 35 characters to complete the dungeon. Everybody in the group, myself included, agreed that it felt easier on 35s than it was on our downscaled 80s.

Are you sure about that? Because at level 35 you don’t have access to most of the traits you do have access to at level 80, or exotic weapon, some stacking sigils, etc. I run Arah nearly everyday, and I will admit AC is a tougher dungeon now. AC P2 boss is not hard, just frustrating. A boss like Lupicos is a pleasure to fight, while the death eater is just downright annoying. It is nearly impossible to melee it with aggro and it’s crippling attack can kill you in one shot if you are in a certain range of it.

Seigfried.5938:

AlietteFaye.7316:

SirDrygan.1823:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Seigfried.5938:

AC is a level 35 dungeon, but I can’t level my characters there anymore. It is way harder to do AC with a level 35 character than doing arah(explorable) with a level 80. Earlier I tried AC p2, and the final boss is just frustrating and we ended up quiting the run. Since the update I have not done AC nearly as much as I used to. If it is a low level dungeon, then let only low levels do it and not make it so hard that only level 80s can complete it. Because now there isn’t any dungeon for level 35s

Been seeing this for months on end now. Stop saying that it’s harder for level 35 characters when it’s definitely not the case.

Are you sure it’s not hard for a group of level 35s to run the AC? Because it is HARD period.. Oh, wait, you may one of those elite players. Not everyone are like you ok? The weak players don’t have your kind of reflexes and also hand eye coordination. Some are just casual players.

And don’t give me that “Casual players” should not play this game or whatever excuses. Casual players also pay for this game, you also pay for this game, so does everyone else who plays this game. I have been in failed AC runs, I have been in AC runs that skipped many mobs and I have been in AC runs that runs for hours to complete. I also have been in AC runs where the group I am in just crushed everything that moves. I am sure that AC is NOT for players in the range of level 35 – 45.They will never survive without some level 80s with them. Unless they know how to skip here and exploit there. Or they are all elite players with level 80s but are leveling their level 35s.

The devs should re-lable the dungeon to level 45 and above. TA to level 65 and above…and some level 80s ONLY.

I didn’t say it wasn’t hard. I said it was not any harder for a level 35 than it is for a level 80. I was one of the volunteers that disproved everybody’s theory that it was “impossible” for a group of level 35 characters to complete the dungeon. Everybody in the group, myself included, agreed that it felt easier on 35s than it was on our downscaled 80s.

Are you sure about that? Because at level 35 you don’t have access to most of the traits you do have access to at level 80, or exotic weapon, some stacking sigils, etc. I run Arah nearly everyday, and I will admit AC is a tougher dungeon now. AC P2 boss is not hard, just frustrating. A boss like Lupicos is a pleasure to fight, while the death eater is just downright annoying. It is nearly impossible to melee it with aggro and it’s crippling attack can kill you in one shot if you are in a certain range of it.

I am sure about that. Because like I said, I’m one of the people that volunteered and completed the dungeon on all level 35s. I agree that Lupicus is a great fight, but that’s because he’s one of the few bosses with actual mechanics, coupled with phases.

Ghost Eater isn’t “hard”. It just requires some coordination, and that’s why a lot of PuGs are whining. Because the dungeon now requires some actual teamwork and it makes it harder for them to find just any random group of people to just faceroll with.

Are you sure you folks are talking about the same stuff here? I see some folks talking about explorables and some talking about SM. Considering we’re talking low level dungeons, I would assume most people are discussing SM, but some clearly aren’t. That isn’t really helpful to the discussion (IMO).

I have to say, as someone who’s level 48 and never done a dungeon besides molten in a pug (at 29-30), threads like this are putting me off even trying to use gw2lfg for AC and CM because 1) I need to save funds for my trait book at 60 instead of on endless repairs before a group falls apart, and 2) I don’t have (currently) a guild of folks who are able to give them a try with me in voice.

My POV, as a swg, wow, and swtor veteran who enjoys the complexity in gw2 but hates having to read guides on boss fights (wow’s dungeon journal is a good way to bring that in game), is that the early dungeons should be doable by pugs of at level characters who aren’t morons, but don’t have every skill and trait available (unlocked/purchased). Make me dodge, make me remove some conditions, break some stuns, etc, but let my group who’s not trying to faceroll, make it through.

I do like the suggestion someone made of having the npcs “guide” you some. That type of ingame feedback is great. I love it when when my toon yells about needing an antidote because I know I need to clear conditions. That sort of thing is essential for someone who has difficulty following all the buffs and debuffs without the audio cues. I don’t mind some information overload (since I can generally focus on a few pieces that matter), but the in game cues we have are an outstanding aid.

And maybe either leave the explorables out of this thread, or make it clear which you’re speaking of. Regardless, I do appreciate folks taking the time to share their pov and experiences.

mooftak.9605:

Are you sure you folks are talking about the same stuff here? I see some folks talking about explorables and some talking about SM. Considering we’re talking low level dungeons, I would assume most people are discussing SM, but some clearly aren’t. That isn’t really helpful to the discussion (IMO).

I have to say, as someone who’s level 48 and never done a dungeon besides molten in a pug (at 29-30), threads like this are putting me off even trying to use gw2lfg for AC and CM because 1) I need to save funds for my trait book at 60 instead of on endless repairs before a group falls apart, and 2) I don’t have (currently) a guild of folks who are able to give them a try with me in voice.

My POV, as a swg, wow, and swtor veteran who enjoys the complexity in gw2 but hates having to read guides on boss fights (wow’s dungeon journal is a good way to bring that in game), is that the early dungeons should be doable by pugs of at level characters who aren’t morons, but don’t have every skill and trait available (unlocked/purchased). Make me dodge, make me remove some conditions, break some stuns, etc, but let my group who’s not trying to faceroll, make it through.

I do like the suggestion someone made of having the npcs “guide” you some. That type of ingame feedback is great. I love it when when my toon yells about needing an antidote because I know I need to clear conditions. That sort of thing is essential for someone who has difficulty following all the buffs and debuffs without the audio cues. I don’t mind some information overload (since I can generally focus on a few pieces that matter), but the in game cues we have are an outstanding aid.

And maybe either leave the explorables out of this thread, or make it clear which you’re speaking of. Regardless, I do appreciate folks taking the time to share their pov and experiences.

Not quite sure what you’re talking about. Everybody here has been talking about explorable modes.
Hope that helps clear the misunderstanding up for you.

AlietteFaye.7316:

<snip>
Not quite sure what you’re talking about. Everybody here has been talking about explorable modes.
Hope that helps clear the misunderstanding up for you.

Ok then, sorry for the interruption.

Does the game have a dungeon at the moment that is suitable for learning the key aspects of dungeons, and is fun at the same time?

A dungeon that teaches you how to remove conditions, how to deal with devastating bosses, and how to manage aggro? A dungeon that does all that, without shredding your armor, and making you dislike dungeons? I would honestly like to know.

This “learn to play” argument is something some posters should be ashamed of. Anyone can get good at these dungeons if they grind through them enough… but why would they want to? Most of the dungeons in this game discourage people from doing dungeons. Surely that can’t be the goal of the designers?

As a level designer:

• You need to prepare players gradually for more complex mechanics in your dungeons.

• Players need to have fun. If its hard, but not fun, no one wants to play it. If its easy but fun, people will still play it for the fun factor. If its not fun, hard, but with a good reward, people will grind their way through until they have what they need, and then never return.

• Dungeons should be forgiving. Traps that instantly reduce your health to zero are not fun in any way, shape or form.

• Trial and error is bad design. Players should be able to figure out a proper strategy without having to die repeatedly.

Now I haven’t played the new AC yet, because all the other dungeons have ruined dungeons for me for good. But surely we can agree that there should be an introductory dungeon? You can’t just leap from easy to really teeth grindingly hard, and expect players to cope with that.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Does the game have a dungeon at the moment that is suitable for learning the key aspects of dungeons, and is fun at the same time?

Are story mode dungeons insufficient for this?

Honestly, there’s very little that can “train” someone for a specific mechanic, or boss, other than the mechanic or boss itself. Anything else is pretty much out of context, and not necessarily interchangeable.

If you don’t buy that logic, then any old dodge out of a red circle in openworld is the same as a dodge out of Spider Queen’s red circles. A dodge is a dodge right?Yes – great, all mechanics can be learned from open world. No – Then refer to what I said above.

At some point, a player has to step up and meet the challenge. The challenge doesn’t have to step down, or sugar coat the process for the player.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

As a level designer:

• You need to prepare players gradually for more complex mechanics in your dungeons.

• Players need to have fun. If its hard, but not fun, no one wants to play it. If its easy but fun, people will still play it for the fun factor. If its not fun, hard, but with a good reward, people will grind their way through until they have what they need, and then never return.

• Dungeons should be forgiving. Traps that instantly reduce your health to zero are not fun in any way, shape or form.

• Trial and error is bad design. Players should be able to figure out a proper strategy without having to die repeatedly.

I think you added these in edit after I posted…

While I can appreciate the intent of these opinions, I personally don’t feel they’re mandatory design principles at all.

• Gradual preparation will work only to a certain point. If a player is taken from 0%-80% capability gradually great. But if the mechanic requires 90% compentency, and that player simply can’t achieve that, they’re stuck regardless of any preparation provided. This is the case for a good number of players. This doesn’t make them bad players, it just means that some things are beyond them. I have my own limits, and am well aware of them, and don’t ask Anet to change their content to consider my limitations.

• “Fun” is very objective. For some, the challenge is the fun part.

• Not necessarily. One shot death, while harsh, is probably the best motivator to figure out how NOT to get one-shotted. If I hit a trap that insta-kills me, I’m kitten sure gonna remember not to set it off again.

• While conceptually great, what is a viable alternative? Having some kind of NPC/object spell out the mechanic before it’s encountered? Fine, but until a player experiences it, in context, I don’t know how viable such a thing is. And even if it works perfectly, how much “fun” is it to be told how do a mechanic without actually doing it. And this is even giving the benefit of the doubt to the player that they’ll be able to execute instructions perfectly. I am serious when I ask “What is the alternative to trial and error in game context”?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Now I haven’t played the new AC yet, because all the other dungeons have ruined dungeons for me for good. But surely we can agree that there should be an introductory dungeon? You can’t just leap from easy to really teeth grindingly hard, and expect players to cope with that.

But from your earlier post in this very thread:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

For the record, I’ve completed AC multiple times with ease these days… but that’s at level 80, with full exotics gear. But I never found it much fun (it’s just a linear game of wack-a-mole).

So, which is it?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But surely we can agree that there should be an introductory dungeon? You can’t just leap from easy to really teeth grindingly hard, and expect players to cope with that.

I can agree with this, yes. There is not a very good learning curve in the game. It just tosses you in and feeds you to the wolves, basically. And to that, yes. I agree that the game could do a much better job.

But everybody is making it out to be like the old AC is exactly what you are talking about. Which it wasn’t. It didn’t teach mechanics to you and progressively take things up, it was just another dungeon like the others. The difference was that it was one of the easier dungeons before due to a lack of necessary communication and teamwork.

Back to what you said. Yes. The game needs a better way of teaching players just about every mechanic in the game.

Have any of the 80’s here tried going in AC EXP with all greens(Armor/Weapon/Trinkets) and only 25 trait points used?

Just to see how hard it would be for the lvl 35 experience.

Amun Ra.6435:

Have any of the 80’s here tried going in AC EXP with all greens(Armor/Weapon/Trinkets) and only 25 trait points used?

Just to see how hard it would be for the lvl 35 experience.

Yup. Was fine.

personally I love TA the only hard part of that dungeon is the fact I managed to convince a guildie that you need to destroy all the spider eggs in the room with fyonna and that keeps it interesting lol

IamDuddits.1692:

People still use the “It’s the first dungeon” argument as an excuse for dodge being too hard to grasp. People say dodge-or-die is too harsh for the first dungeon, but honestly PvE leveling up to 35 was a gradual enough learning curve. If you haven’t learned to dodge highly choreographed attack animations from leveling then clearly the punishment for failing the dodge wasn’t enough for you to learn the mechanic. It’s not even a low level problem, I see so many level 80s fail this dodge repeatedly and consistently.

The other problem isn’t so much the people that don’t read dungeon tips and guides, it’s the people that don’t even listen to you. I think some of my most enjoyable AC runs were with groups consisting of low level players on their first characters and not from groups of all 80s that were in full zerker.

The problem is – with Kholer specifically – that they want you to dodge while dealing with adds (that stun you) off camera and a wind up that is near impossible to see among everything blue and glowy. Kholer will at times summon adds and then immediately spin as you’re trying to identify the adds. If you’re pointing your camera away from Kholer to deal with the adds (since we know the camera targetting system will inanely choose to focus on Kholer if he’s what your watching, instead of the mob right on top of you), Kholer will almost certainly choose that moment to catch and spin you to death. And even if you have stability to break Kholer’s catching you, he still deals enough damage to one-shot lower level players.

Kholer is in no way a newer player, lower-level, teaching tool boss in this level 35 dungeon. Then again, he is somewhat optional.

Overall I enjoy the changes made to AC. The storyline of the explorable makes more sense (why are we getting these torches, for instance?), and the mechanics require more teamwork and less tank-and-spank. Still, trying to take a couple of newer players into their first time explorable using Ascalonian Catacombs is a major headache, whereas it should be usuable as a teaching tool.

Funny how CoF is easier than AC story mode.

Mourningcry.9428:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Now I haven’t played the new AC yet, because all the other dungeons have ruined dungeons for me for good. But surely we can agree that there should be an introductory dungeon? You can’t just leap from easy to really teeth grindingly hard, and expect players to cope with that.

But from your earlier post in this very thread:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

For the record, I’ve completed AC multiple times with ease these days… but that’s at level 80, with full exotics gear. But I never found it much fun (it’s just a linear game of wack-a-mole).

So, which is it?

Simple. I completed it several times before they updated it. Still haven’t played the new version.

Mourningcry.9428:

• Gradual preparation will work only to a certain point. If a player is taken from 0%-80% capability gradually great. But if the mechanic requires 90% compentency, and that player simply can’t achieve that, they’re stuck regardless of any preparation provided. This is the case for a good number of players. This doesn’t make them bad players, it just means that some things are beyond them. I have my own limits, and am well aware of them, and don’t ask Anet to change their content to consider my limitations.

Are there mechanics in the game right now that require 90% competency? What I mean is, even if you take a simple mechanic as dodging, you can slowly teach players what to watch out for, and what the timing is. All of this can be taken one step at a time. Suppose AC is your first dungeon, and right at the start is the Spider Queen.. I think they could at least make the difficulty curve in the dungeon itself progressive, let alone across all dungeons. I don’t feel normal PVE prepares players at all for the Spider Queen, yet it is most likely their first encounter in a dungeon.

Mourningcry.9428:

• “Fun” is very objective. For some, the challenge is the fun part.

I don’t think it is subjective at all. People who enjoy things because they are just hard, are perhaps easier entertained. But making an activity diverse and fun, and maintaining a good pace in the dungeon… all of those are things that are not that subjective. Fun is often a matter of adding a variety of activities that players enjoy doing, and I think that’s far from subjective. If it really were completely subjective, then there would be no way to make dungeons fun for everybody. And I don’t think that’s impossible at all.

Mourningcry.9428:

• Not necessarily. One shot death, while harsh, is probably the best motivator to figure out how NOT to get one-shotted. If I hit a trap that insta-kills me, I’m kitten sure gonna remember not to set it off again.

But how about a trap that downs you, and then teleports you back to a safe spot? Same effect, but no frustration, and no armor repairs. Fractals implemented this, and I think many of us would agree that was an improvement.

Mourningcry.9428:

“What is the alternative to trial and error in game context”?

There are many alternatives. One of the best alternatives, is to add noticeable stages to a boss battle (I’m just taking boss battles as an example for this). Rather than having players wipe on the boss several times, to learn the mechanics, you could gradually ramp up the difficulty during the battle. Molten Facility does this with the Berserker’s shockwaves. Early on in the dungeon there is the weapon testing facility, which teaches you how to jump across shockwaves. Several enemies on your way to the boss also do it. And then during the boss battle itself, the Berserker starts creating more and more shockwaves as his health decreases. In phase 2, his shockwaves start doing really heavy damage. This is an excellent example of eliminating trial and error.

Now, you could still fail the boss. But you’d feel less frustrated, because the mechanics are introduced gradually all over the dungeon.

Another example of the exact reverse, how not to do it, is that gauntlet with the bombs in CoF path 3. The first time you encounter those things, you have no idea what they do and what’s going to happen. So you run in, they explode, and there goes part of your armor. In no shape or form are you told that these things are indeed bombs, and that they will instantly kill you if you get close. Nothing is explained, and the player is expected to die, in order to find out what the goal is. But worse: The player will have to die several more times, trying to figure how he’s expected to run through the obstacle course. Each time the player fails, means more armor repairs. This is the worst kind of trial and error game play. And there are tons of ways to fix it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Mourningcry.9428:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Now I haven’t played the new AC yet, because all the other dungeons have ruined dungeons for me for good. But surely we can agree that there should be an introductory dungeon? You can’t just leap from easy to really teeth grindingly hard, and expect players to cope with that.

But from your earlier post in this very thread:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

For the record, I’ve completed AC multiple times with ease these days… but that’s at level 80, with full exotics gear. But I never found it much fun (it’s just a linear game of wack-a-mole).

So, which is it?

Simple. I completed it several times before they updated it. Still haven’t played the new version.

If that’s what you meant, then perhaps the way it was stated was a bit misleading. At the time of post, “these days”, the patch had been out for a good while. Regardless, that kind of makes it worse.

Perhaps you should actually try and run it a few times and actually experience it. This might actually lend a bit more credibility to your opinions. How can you honestly say it should be changed without ever even have experienced it?

Mourningcry.9428:

Perhaps you should actually try and run it a few times and actually experience it. This might actually lend a bit more credibility to your opinions. How can you honestly say it should be changed without ever even have experienced it?

Because my criticism is regarding the lack of a gradual difficulty curve in all the dungeons as a whole. You still receive a message welcoming you to this dungeon at a very early level, and nothing prepares you for what is about to come.

Then as you do more dungeons, the difficulty curve goes up and down, up and down. Caudecus Manor, also in a starter area, is devious. Twilight Arbor is a nightmare, especially in storymode. But Honor of the Waves on the other hand, is really simple. And CoF is a piece of cake. See, the difficulty curve is all over the place. It is as if no thought was given to how these dungeons compare to each other, and the order in which you encounter them. Why is there no proper difficulty curve?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

/snip

Another example is that gauntlet with the bombs in CF path 3. The first time you encounter those things, you have no idea what they do and what’s going to happen. So you run in, they explode, and there goes part of your armor. In no shape or form are you told that these things are indeed bombs, and that they will instantly kill you if you get close. Nothing is explained, and the player is expected to die, in order to find out what the goal is. But worse: The player will have to die several more times, trying to figure how he’s expected to run through the obstacle course. Each time the player fails, means more armor repairs. This is the worst kind of trial and error game play. And there are tons of ways to fix it.

All very reasonable responses (except for the “fun” part, I’ll still argue it’s too subjective, the sheer number of complaints about SAB, MWF, and even fractals show how subjective interpretation of fun can be).

While I don’t feel any of those changes are necessary, I don’t really see any of them being detrimental to the overall experience if the ultimate result is level of difficulty comparable to the current. It just allows for a little bit more gradual exposure to those who may benefit, or require, it.

Maybe you misunderstand what I mean when I talked about fun. You have to forget about pleasing everyone. There will always be people that hate your designs, and there will always be people who have complaints. After all, not all bugs can be eliminated. And even something as diverse as Fractals will have some maps that annoy the hell out of some players (hello Swamp). But you CAN make content that is enjoyable to a very large group of players. Both Fractals and Molten Facility prove this. People are having fun.

I think Fractals if anything, shows that “fun” isn’t subjective. Tons of people keep playing Fractals, and they seem to be having a good time. But meanwhile, good luck finding a party for a dungeon. The dungeons are empty. Before Fractals, you could often find some people for a dungeon run in LA. But now, its none stop Fractals. And the rewards for Fractals aren’t even that good.

The only dungeons that seem to receive frequent visitors, are CoF (because it is so easy to farm) and Arah (because people like a good challenge, but for the record I think Arah is a rubbish dungeon overall, and I have no idea why anyone would want to play it). Oh, and Molten Facility of course. Which is a pretty good dungeon.

Another thing which I didn’t even address yet, is the difference in difficulty between story mode and exploration mode. Story mode is the version of the dungeon that players must complete first, and there for you would expect it to be easier than explorable mode… but for some dungeons this is not the case. I think many would argue that TA is a lot harder in storymode, than in explorable. And I remember there being other dungeons that had a similar problem (but their names elude me at this hour).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Maybe you misunderstand what I mean when I talked about fun. You have to forget about pleasing everyone…

I think on this we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to equate fun to pleasing… Also, finding a group for any instance is really as easy as posting on gw2lfg.

Personally, I enjoy running any dungeon in its current state.There are even a number of players, myself included, that find the challenge of attempting to solo, or duo, dungeons, “fun”.

Ultimately, it’s a game, and we play whatever aspect of it for the fun of it. I’m not against changes that would make it more “fun” for others, however, there has to be some balance to ensure that those same changes don’t detract “fun” away from others. There’s obviously no silver bullet, and, I would say ANet is making attempts to do the most they can.

What I meant was, while something may not be fun to everybody, on the whole it can succeed in being fun for lots of people. If it wasn’t possible to satisfy a large part of your target audience, that would be a very sad and hopeless thing indeed. So when I say that fun isn’t subjective, what I mean is that a large part of the target audience shares the same idea of what they find enjoyable content.

I agree that the recent Fractals, SAB and Molten Facility have made me hopeful for future dungeons. However, I fear that none of the old dungeons will ever receive the total redesign that they badly need (that would simply not be practical). Its a shame the old dungeons were rushed to completion, because the team shows that they certainly have the talent to make good dungeons, if they are given enough time and freedom.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

What I meant was, while something may not be fun to everybody, on the whole it can succeed in being fun for lots of people. If it wasn’t possible to satisfy a large part of your target audience, that would be a very sad and hopeless thing indeed. So when I say that fun isn’t subjective, what I mean is that a large part of the target audience shares the same idea of what they find enjoyable content.

I agree that the recent Fractals, SAB and Molten Facility have made me hopeful for future dungeons. However, I fear that none of the old dungeons will ever receive the total redesign that they badly need (that would simply not be practical). Its a shame the old dungeons were rushed to completion, because the team shows that they certainly have the talent to make good dungeons, if they are given enough time and freedom.

But see, that is exactly what they did to AC. They redesigned every boss to have interesting mechanics that are supposed to engage parties and make them cooperate. They’ve already started to rework their old dungeons, as Robert Hrouda has said.

Aleth.9630:

Funny how CoF is easier than AC story mode.

How long has it been since you’ve done AC story mode? Your statement may have been true at launch, when AC story did seem very hard in comparison to some explorables. However, it is no longer true. AC Story has been modified to be much more forgiving.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Aleth.9630:

Funny how CoF is easier than AC story mode.

How long has it been since you’ve done AC story mode? Your statement may have been true at launch, when AC story did seem very hard in comparison to some explorables. However, it is no longer true. AC Story has been modified to be much more forgiving.

Heh … did it with 3 people around last week but none of us were level 30. Level 80 eng, level 80 ele and a lv46 warrior. I suspect that would not have gone as well in CoF (assuming the lv46 somehow gets boosted to the appropriate level).

On the other hand the TA story mode end fight is probably harder than both CoF p1 and p2. Probably even if you had to fight the p1 and p2 bosses at the same time.

AlietteFaye.7316:

But see, that is exactly what they did to AC. They redesigned every boss to have interesting mechanics that are supposed to engage parties and make them cooperate. They’ve already started to rework their old dungeons, as Robert Hrouda has said.

Yes, they redesigned the bosses, and tweaked the trash mobs. And that’s it. But what the dungeons would really need is a complete redesign, but that will never happen. Which is what I was talking about. The old dungeons are flawed at a basic design level, and conflict in a way with how the rest of PVE is designed. Some of this can be fixed, but not all of it. Most likely the lay out of these dungeons will never change, and that’s the biggest problem that I see with the state of these dungeons.

The biggest problems with dungeons in GW2 are currently:

• They are repetitive, boring and grindy (this is being addressed with new boss mechanics and weaker trash mobs)
• They have unfair situations and instant death traps (this is also being balanced)
• They are extremely linear (this is something that most likely will never be fixed, because you would need a full redesign for that)
• They lack a steady difficulty progression, and are too hard for the level of players they are aimed at. Without a proper introduction to dungeon mechanics, no one is ready for a dungeon at level 30. You’ll be torn to shreds, and not have a very fun time. (I hope this will be addressed)
• They lack sufficient rewards to do them. Apart from the tokens, there’s really not that much to look forward to in dungeons. The trash mobs especially could use better drops. (This can be fixed, but I remain skeptical that it will be.)

I totally agree with OP. My first character is a norn warrior….he was lvl 55 when I got into a PUG to do AC. I thought that I would own that place since if was for lvl 35s. After the 12th or 15th time I died and I limped out after killed the final boss and my ego was shoved some place dark and remote I said to myself that I was never doing another dungeon. I thought that it was crazy hard (we couldn’t get the twins apart to save our life!) I know that things have changed in AC since last Oct/Nov and I actually took my lvl 80 ranger through and didn’t die once and I thought is this character that much better or was my warrior that bad (my warrior was probably bad, didn’t know what to do with traits and didn’t have armorsmithing and his gear was crappy). I guess the way I look at it is that if you are going to make a dungeon say lvl 35 and put the entrance in the char beginning area then why make it so hard for anybody that isn’t lvl 80?

Calista Flame.5681:

I totally agree with OP. My first character is a norn warrior….he was lvl 55 when I got into a PUG to do AC. I thought that I would own that place since if was for lvl 35s. After the 12th or 15th time I died and I limped out after killed the final boss and my ego was shoved some place dark and remote I said to myself that I was never doing another dungeon. I thought that it was crazy hard (we couldn’t get the twins apart to save our life!) I know that things have changed in AC since last Oct/Nov and I actually took my lvl 80 ranger through and didn’t die once and I thought is this character that much better or was my warrior that bad (my warrior was probably bad, didn’t know what to do with traits and didn’t have armorsmithing and his gear was crappy). I guess the way I look at it is that if you are going to make a dungeon say lvl 35 and put the entrance in the char beginning area then why make it so hard for anybody that isn’t lvl 80?

When you say the twins, that says AC Story Mode (level 30 recommended), not AC Explorable (35). AC Story was nerfed pretty dramatically between launch and now.

I disagree that difficulty should be based on what the minimum level is. I do not remember ever seeing a dev state that this was their intention. This belief has been strictly created and adopted by a handful of players.

Someone stated CM was difficult while TA and HotW was relatively easy. They were confused why they didn’t scale up. It’s because the devs did not intend it that way. The dungeons are scaled down based on the zone they are in, not their intended difficulty. They may not all fall within the zone’s level range but they increase as each zone’s level range increases. TA is likely different as there shouldn’t be two dungeons with the same level.

Players also have no reason to do explorable at early levels. The costs do not equal the rewards. The coins you get can be gotten quicker by killing outside dungeons and selling drops. Exp can be gained quicker outside by doing events and such. Tokens are for level 80 exotics. There are rares but by the time you get enough tokens for them, they will be outdated.

Story mode is different and it can easily be done at the minimum level. Just make sure to have updated equipment and not have stats/traits that are all over the place. Also make sure you’re using useful abilities. Food helps as well.

Ayrilana.1396:

Someone stated CM was difficult while TA and HotW was relatively easy. They were confused why they didn’t scale up. It’s because the devs did not intend it that way. The dungeons are scaled down based on the zone they are in, not their intended difficulty. They may not all fall within the zone’s level range but they increase as each zone’s level range increases. TA is likely different as there shouldn’t be two dungeons with the same level.

But that makes no sense at all! See, if you go through storymode, you get invitations to these dungeons in a specific order. So logically that means that the difficulty should gradually go up. Because there is a set order in which we were expected to visit these dungeons! I’m getting the feeling that this balance wasn’t given any thought at all.

And why would dungeons be scaled down based on the zone they are in? They all have high level mobs, with no relation to the zone the dungeon is in. I see no evidence of them being scaled down based on their zone. And lets be fair, HotW is in Frostgorge sound, a high level zone…. but its a really easy dungeon! Even if you compare the dungeons to the zone they are in, the difficulty does not match up at all.

You didn’t completely read my post. That’s for story mode, not explorable. Story mode parallels with the personal story and cross at the last personal story with the Arah story mode. The story modes are all pretty easy.

They are scaled down to add challenge. If players wanted to play at a lower level, they could. As I had said in my previous post, the dungeons do not match up exactly with the level range of the zone they are in. However, they do increase as you go to higher level zones.

Once again, you’re assuming that difficulty should increase based on level which is not the case. It’s an idea you, and others, made up. Doing map completion, does the difficulty scale up as you go to higher zones? No. Doing guild missions, are missions/bounties more difficult in higher zones? No. Are jumping puzzles more difficult as you go to higher zones? No. As you can see, no content really gets that difficult as you go to higher zones. If anything, ANET should win crease the difficulty of HotW to match other dungeons.

I don’t think that’s entirely true. Explorables definitely get more challenging as they progress. Cursed Shore for example is very unfriendly, and Frostgorge Sound also has a few really nasty foes. There’s plenty of room to gradually learn to do all of that content, including the jumping puzzles. But the dungeons don’t have that learning curve.