Guild Wars 2

It’s become apparent that there are two opinions that are shared among the majority of players.

- Dungeons are fine as they are. They were intended as a challenge, and shouldn’t become mindless grinds that anyone can pull off without any strategy or coordination whatsoever.

- Dungeons are too hard, and yield too little reward for the effort required. It’s not fun to die countless times and then end up with less than you started with when you eventually get around to finish it.

There’s no right or wrong here. Both of those opinions are completely warranted. There has to be some PVE content that is challenging and that players can complete together. Still, we have to ask ourselves, should all the dungeons, both story and explorable, be this challenging?

A lot who voice their opinionon on how dungeons should indeed be a challenge, and should remain as they are, seem to think that the changes the “casual” player asks for, will hurt the content available to them. They wish to be challenged, because if it becomes too easy, every single run will become a chore, and farming the same dungeon hundreds of times, will become something mind-boggling boring and tedious. And I understand that, I want to be challenged too. However, even though I am level 80 and have 85% world completion, and thus obviously have a grip of the game, I’m a tad afraid of joining a group. And why is that? Because there is no entry-level dungeon. There is no dungeon that is obviously designed purely to teach new players, especially those who are new to MMORPGs, how to handle basic mechanics. I keep hearing about how you shouldn’t group up with randoms, and how important it is to be coordinated, that it ends up scaring me away from even attempting. I don’t want to be the guy who has to have everything explained to him. The guy who brings the rest of the group down.

What a lot of people are asking for, isn’t an overall “nerf” to dungeons. Sure, there are some numbers that should be tweaked, but there should be challenging content as well. I am looking forward to facing that when that time comes, but I wish there were a couple of easy dungeons, that would let pugs with “sub-optimal” group setups progress without having to die as frequently. I want to be able to join four other randoms, and feel sure that we will be able to progress, no matter how inexperienced they are.

Most people think dungeons are fun. Sure, some might prefer PVP to PVE, but doing a dungeon every once in a while is something most players would consider a rewarding experience. However, just as some people enjoy zergfests in WvW, and others prefer intense, one-on-one combat in tPVP, some people want to play easier PVE content, while others prefer hard and challenging content. It is not wrong to prefer either, but it is wrong to think that YOUR PREFERENCE should be the one ANet should cater to.

TL;DR – Let there be easy and challenging dungeons. Needs to be entry-level dungeons so noobs can get a feel for what the harder content will be like, but still keep a good chunk of challenging dungeons (explorable) so those who wish to be challenged and pushed to the max can do that as well.

That’s something i can totally agree with.

the people that say dungeons are fine have only done a few dungeons…they even state this. anyone that has done all the explorables and story modes i highly doubt thinks dungeons are fine as is.

I can guarantee you that it’s not a 50/50 split. The people on these forums who yell that dungeons are fine are a minority.

The first solution is to make StoryMode dungeons easier.
So average players can actually do them, finish them, have fun, and see the Stories.

What happens with ExplorationMode dungeons is another issue. I can’t say, because I am not level-80, and I haven’t seen them. In general, I am fine with hardmode dungeons being hard. But StoryMode should be easy. Easier than they are now. They should require a little effort during the run. But they should not require preparation, reading guides, having the proper build, having good gear, or locking you into using one particular weapon or play-style. They should not require guildies/friends only, nor voicecom. Easy mode should be easy.

I wouldn’t say the instances are fine or too hard, the trash can be frustrating and some of the fights are difficult but mainly just because of a ton of adds. If anything I would say the actual boss encounters are more often than not much too easy, quite a few have very few and overly simple mechanics. There are ofcourse some very good ones too but atleast in my opinion flooding the instance with wave after wave of adds is not particularly fun nor is waiting for a boss to die because of a massive health pool. I have completed (well save for the instances where the quest would not complete or final boss would not spawn) a fair few explorable dungeons and simply want to state my opinion and hope that perhaps some changes could be made so that the idea of farming these instances would truly excite or atleast interest myself and those who have similar opinions.

The above is my opinion on explorable instances, the storymode versions were much easier having done them all (some with full pugs too) and can understand that they are there mainly for the story and would only change a few things, all of which are in Crucible of Eternity.
I would turn off the camera shaking, I understand the reactor is going critical but I don’t think I need to be reminded of this constantly and I would tone down the part where we are helping Zojja taking controll of the golems, the lack of conventional agro systems makes it very hard to keep her alive without the help of a guardian on his/her toes able to pop a big heal on her at the exact right moment.

“But they should not require preparation, reading guides, having the proper build, having good gear, or locking you into using one particular weapon or play-style. They should not require guildies/friends only, nor voicecom. Easy mode should be easy.”

But explorable doesnt require that either?

Gryz.8376:

I can guarantee you that it’s not a 50/50 split. The people on these forums who yell that dungeons are fine are a minority.

The first solution is to make StoryMode dungeons easier.
So average players can actually do them, finish them, have fun, and see the Stories.

What happens with ExplorationMode dungeons is another issue. I can’t say, because I am not level-80, and I haven’t seen them. In general, I am fine with hardmode dungeons being hard. But StoryMode should be easy. Easier than they are now. They should require a little effort during the run. But they should not require preparation, reading guides, having the proper build, having good gear, or locking you into using one particular weapon or play-style. They should not require guildies/friends only, nor voicecom. Easy mode should be easy.

I’ve done 6/8 story modes so far (excluding HoW and Arah) and while I agree, some parts are absurdly difficult at times, my main gripe is that the HP pools are too high in some areas. It’s kind of an ‘artificial difficulty’. Most notable, CoE story needs HP pools nerfed in a couple of fights.

However, I disagree that overall difficulty is too high. I’ve never prepared for a dungeon, read guides, or changed my build for a dungeon – I was typically not geared optimally for the dungeon as well, and on top of that I was a warrior using a greatsword (maximum inefficiency!). I completed all of the dungeons with PUGs – what’s funny to me when people complain is that at first I can understand it, but once you fail a fight once or twice, you tweak your tactics and suddenly the fight becomes really easy. This has been true for every fight. It’s become my favorite part about dungeons.

tl;dr: Agree and disagree on different points. Dungeons require adaptability.

Gryz.8376:

I can guarantee you that it’s not a 50/50 split. The people on these forums who yell that dungeons are fine are a minority.

The first solution is to make StoryMode dungeons easier.
So average players can actually do them, finish them, have fun, and see the Stories.

What happens with ExplorationMode dungeons is another issue. I can’t say, because I am not level-80, and I haven’t seen them. In general, I am fine with hardmode dungeons being hard. But StoryMode should be easy. Easier than they are now. They should require a little effort during the run. But they should not require preparation, reading guides, having the proper build, having good gear, or locking you into using one particular weapon or play-style. They should not require guildies/friends only, nor voicecom. Easy mode should be easy.

The problem is that, aside from AC (and some bugs in other dungeons), story mode is not all that difficult. Not being able to do it on the first time with an uncoordinated group does not mean it’s difficult. Even if it’s story mode, it shouldn’t be a wash. That wont teach anyone anything. I think most people get turned off by AC because it is the first dungeon, and it is one of the more difficult ones.

Story mode isn’t “easy” mode. It’s “normal”. 90% of the PvE in the game is already “easy” mode.

My bottom line is no one should leave a dungeon poorer then when they went in, no matter how crappy their team is. Already there are players in our guild who are turned off from doing dungeons because they think they are a huge money sink. In GW 1 everyone wanted to do the dungeons.

The only solution to that would make it so it doesn’t cost so much to fix your armor in a dungeon.

Gryz.8376:

I can guarantee you that it’s not a 50/50 split. The people on these forums who yell that dungeons are fine are a minority.

The reason most of the voices on the forums are calling for nerfs, is because the people who think dungeons are fine are spending their time happily running dungeons. They think everything is just peachy, so they don’t want to spend time coming to the forums.

As I just wrote in another thread, there is no need for a “tutorial dungeon”.
People generally aren’t dumb, but they like to play dumb so they can blame their failure on something else other than themselves (lol, even I do sometimes xD). If people were to analyse the reason why they fail at doing a dungeon the world would be a better place.

Analyse your mistakes. Learn from your mistakes. Adapt to the situation using your available skills.
If you’re below level 80 and find it too challenging, level up more. Unlock more traits. Get better gear. Buy more utility skills. Try out different weapon sets. Learn to play your profession better and more effectively. Use dodge more wisely.

If all that fails, it might be either you sucking at the game, or your teammates not having gone through the learn-to-get-better phase yet. If it’s your teammates doing it wrong, don’t yell or swear at them. Be patient. Explain to them what they do wrong. Tell them what they can do to be more effective. If you know the dungeon strategies from a previous run, share tactics.

kulle.6542:

the people that say dungeons are fine have only done a few dungeons…they even state this. anyone that has done all the explorables and story modes i highly doubt thinks dungeons are fine as is.

I’ve done a CM explorable, a CoF explorable, all HOTW explorables, an Arah explorable and an SE explorable on top of almost every story mode (don’t think I did CoE) and I’ve found most of ‘em to be just the right difficulty. People just want to run in spec’d glass cannon and built for themselves when that’s clearly not the right way. Every group I’ve had where we’ve adapted our builds to the fight, dungeon and group we’ve succeeded. Run a lot of support spells, know when to dodge, focus on revives and call targets. Should be fine other than the odd insta gib mechanic that doesn’t have any indicator.

A lot of people that complain dungeons are too hard are, to put it frankly, not very good at the game. Like on a basic MMO level. Not trying to be an elitist jerk or anything, but that seems to be the case. People want their hand held.

That’s not to say I don’t support easier dungeons for more casual or less skilled players, but I don’t think the right approach is nerfing the content so tl;dr I agree with OP.

The problem with dungeon is every one runs in going " I ’m a DPS"
They dps, dps, and dps and forget that:
1. you need to actually dodge attacks.
2. you need to heal yourself. Having skills that heal team mates are also a HUGE help.
3. Its not about DPS. Take the skills that assist your team.

The average player suffers from the “MMO mentality” where the tank tanks and holds all the agro. The healer heals everyone and the DPS just pew pew pew until everything is dead. THAT DOES NOT WORK here.

Are the dungons difficult?
yes.

Are they as difficult as everyone makes them out to be?
No.

If you take 5 minutes to sort out skills before you go in it makes a HUGE difference.
The Ascalon catacombs is one of the more difficult dungeons and has the luxury of being the first of the bunch.

I will say though it would be nice to see some nicer rewards from completing the dungons though.
-possibly a treasure chest for completing story mode + each variation on explorer mode. ( with NIIIICE loot in it too)