Guild Wars 2

everyone who complains about not being able to join raids seems to forget all about guilds. There are many guilds that do scheduled training and loot raids, which is very accessible.

I also I see many lfg groups that don’t check insights or gear, but you’ll be less likely to actually get a kill.

I join training group to help.. Many of them going no where. A steady roaster is needed to HV proper train. So yeh either make a guild yourself/ find yourself 10 players with same playtime same interest and don’t “sux” ..that don’t sux is hard to find actually.

Talindra.4958:

find yourself 10 players with same playtime same interest and don’t “sux” ..that don’t sux is hard to find actually.

For many players unfortunately that’s a major problem because they jump to Raids (it’s the current big thing after all) while not having any kind of instanced content experience. Although adding something like an AR requirement in Raids wouldn’t make much sense, but it’s fairly common for players joining training runs to not be able to comprehend the easiest mechanics, or have completely silly builds that wouldn’t work even in Fractals. Yet they want to Raid.

The previous Fractal “meta” didn’t help much in that regard either, the 4 Necro + 1 Druid “meta” build led to stupid players, just semi-afking Fractal level 100. Unfortunately the major issue with Raids is that there is very little content to be used as a stepping stone for them.

everyone who complains about not being able to join raids seems to forget all about guilds. There are many guilds that do scheduled training and loot raids, which is very accessible.

I also I see many lfg groups that don’t check insights or gear, but you’ll be less likely to actually get a kill.

And people who say things like this do not understand what people mean when they say raids are inaccessible. They feel that what works for them must work equally well for anyone else. They are wrong.

IonoI.3956:

everyone who complains about not being able to join raids seems to forget all about guilds. There are many guilds that do scheduled training and loot raids, which is very accessible.

I also I see many lfg groups that don’t check insights or gear, but you’ll be less likely to actually get a kill.

1. there is no guarantee you get into guild or guild raid group. Yeah, maybe they will take you for VG but anything like KC, Xera, Matt – no ty. I got lucky getting into guild that takes me to any fight but i have spent A LOT of time prior that trying to get into any group/guild. I am talking about weeks and months here.

2. Those groups also never really get a kill on harder bosses from my experience. There is always some people that didn’t even check guide, some people that just do everything against the guide despite how many times you tell them what to do. There is always someone lagging, someone just messing up over and over and over again.

edit: omg there are raiding groups in LFG requiring 100 LI for VG. This is just sad.

Ohoni.6057:

everyone who complains about not being able to join raids seems to forget all about guilds. There are many guilds that do scheduled training and loot raids, which is very accessible.

I also I see many lfg groups that don’t check insights or gear, but you’ll be less likely to actually get a kill.

And people who say things like this do not understand what people mean when they say raids are inaccessible. They feel that what works for them must work equally well for anyone else. They are wrong.

I’d say they’re right.

But hey what do i know….

You can join a guild
Use LFG to join a Group
Use LFG to create a Group
Use your FL to pull together 10 people who are likeminded

But sure the Raid portal is magically offline for some people thus inaccessible.

You can join a guild
Use LFG to join a Group
Use LFG to create a Group
Use your FL to pull together 10 people who are likeminded

And again, those options might resolve any problems you may have in forming a successful raid party, but they are insufficient for others. You experiences with the raid systems in no way negate theirs. You’re free to say “the system works for me.” You have no right to say “the system works for you.”

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

everyone who complains about not being able to join raids seems to forget all about guilds. There are many guilds that do scheduled training and loot raids, which is very accessible.

I also I see many lfg groups that don’t check insights or gear, but you’ll be less likely to actually get a kill.

And people who say things like this do not understand what people mean when they say raids are inaccessible. They feel that what works for them must work equally well for anyone else. They are wrong.

I’d say they’re right.

But hey what do i know….

You can join a guild

- 150 LI or gtfo

Use LFG to join a Group

- 150 LI or gtfo

Use LFG to create a Group

- yeah except it requires comm tag and ts

Use your FL to pull together 10 people who are likeminded

- getting 10 ppl together at the same time is extremely hard actually. I have pvp team and we can barely manage to practice once in a while because everyone is busy.

Ohoni.6057:

You can join a guild
Use LFG to join a Group
Use LFG to create a Group
Use your FL to pull together 10 people who are likeminded

And again, those options might resolve any problems you may have in forming a successful raid party, but they are insufficient for others. You experiences with the raid systems in no way negate theirs. You’re free to say “the system works for me.” You have no right to say “the system works for you.”

So you basically want them to be dungeons 2.0?

So you basically want them to be dungeons 2.0?

Sure. GW2 dungeons were one of the things I liked about GW2 at launch. This game was founded on accessibility and ease of access, and the current raids are not accessible to a lot of players, and never will be in their current form, no matter how much raiders protest that.

Shadowstep.6049:

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

everyone who complains about not being able to join raids seems to forget all about guilds. There are many guilds that do scheduled training and loot raids, which is very accessible.

I also I see many lfg groups that don’t check insights or gear, but you’ll be less likely to actually get a kill.

And people who say things like this do not understand what people mean when they say raids are inaccessible. They feel that what works for them must work equally well for anyone else. They are wrong.

I’d say they’re right.

But hey what do i know….

You can join a guild

- 150 LI or gtfo

Use LFG to join a Group

- 150 LI or gtfo

Use LFG to create a Group

- yeah except it requires comm tag and ts

Use your FL to pull together 10 people who are likeminded

- getting 10 ppl together at the same time is extremely hard actually. I have pvp team and we can barely manage to practice once in a while because everyone is busy.

Just want to clear up a misconception, you can make a raid squad without a tag. Also you don’t have to have ts, just find 9 other ppl who don’t want to use ts.

thrag.9740:

Shadowstep.6049:

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

everyone who complains about not being able to join raids seems to forget all about guilds. There are many guilds that do scheduled training and loot raids, which is very accessible.

I also I see many lfg groups that don’t check insights or gear, but you’ll be less likely to actually get a kill.

And people who say things like this do not understand what people mean when they say raids are inaccessible. They feel that what works for them must work equally well for anyone else. They are wrong.

I’d say they’re right.

But hey what do i know….

You can join a guild

- 150 LI or gtfo

Use LFG to join a Group

- 150 LI or gtfo

Use LFG to create a Group

- yeah except it requires comm tag and ts

Use your FL to pull together 10 people who are likeminded

- getting 10 ppl together at the same time is extremely hard actually. I have pvp team and we can barely manage to practice once in a while because everyone is busy.

Just want to clear up a misconception, you can make a raid squad without a tag. Also you don’t have to have ts, just find 9 other ppl who don’t want to use ts.

and wipe over and over again?

Shadowstep.6049:

thrag.9740:

Shadowstep.6049:

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

everyone who complains about not being able to join raids seems to forget all about guilds. There are many guilds that do scheduled training and loot raids, which is very accessible.

I also I see many lfg groups that don’t check insights or gear, but you’ll be less likely to actually get a kill.

And people who say things like this do not understand what people mean when they say raids are inaccessible. They feel that what works for them must work equally well for anyone else. They are wrong.

I’d say they’re right.

But hey what do i know….

You can join a guild

- 150 LI or gtfo

Use LFG to join a Group

- 150 LI or gtfo

Use LFG to create a Group

- yeah except it requires comm tag and ts

Use your FL to pull together 10 people who are likeminded

- getting 10 ppl together at the same time is extremely hard actually. I have pvp team and we can barely manage to practice once in a while because everyone is busy.

Just want to clear up a misconception, you can make a raid squad without a tag. Also you don’t have to have ts, just find 9 other ppl who don’t want to use ts.

and wipe over and over again?

If you think you can’t kill boss w/o ts, why not use ts?

If you think you can’t kill boss w/o ts, why not use ts?

I’m not sure what his point is, but mine would be that if there were a less complex variation of the boss fight, then you wouldn’t need TS for a pug to beat it. This would make it more convenient to many players.

Ohoni.6057:

If you think you can’t kill boss w/o ts, why not use ts?

I’m not sure what his point is, but mine would be that if there were a less complex variation of the boss fight, then you wouldn’t need TS for a pug to beat it. This would make it more convenient to many players.

This content already exists, in dungeons, fractals, and open world pve. Raids are suppose to be difficult, with a higher amount of coordination and complexity. If you want raids without complexity, you should be pushing for new fractals, not new raids.

TexZero.7910:

Nefarius.9702:

As the topic title says, I think the accessibility to raids really is an issue.

That was pretty much my only goal yet, until the legendary armor was previewed.
It simply shouldn’t be that top tier content is limited to a small percentage of players.

And that really is the case – I’m in a large guild and roughly 5-10% are successfully, experienced raiders.

Other people (and I think that’s reflecting in the rest of the gw2 community) simply don’t get into raids – cause of the reasons mentioned above.

You’d have to join a somewhat professional raid guild to be really succesful.

Now i’m gonna teach people who keep saying Raids are inaccessible a lesson real quick here.

You see that LFG tool. Use it.

Here’s what you do
1) Create your own group
2) Label it one of the following things, Inexperienced / Fun / Teaching / Learning run
3) Set you own req for comp & let people know what if any voice tools your using.

You are now the proud starter of a raid group.

Lets stop using this false equivocation that raids are inaccessible, when the cold reality is people whom claim this don’t want to put in the same effort those before them did in building raid groups & learning.

That’s exactly what i did when i started raiding. I never really had a static group so my raids were 90% pugs. Getting a comm tag and creating my own groups made raids so so much easier.
Ofc since its pugs u can never guarantee a successful kill but that’s the downside of not being in a static group.

In the end it’s a matter of motivation and nothing else.

This content already exists, in dungeons, fractals, and open world pve.

Nope. If that were true then people wouldn’t be asking. The fact that people are asking is indication that what you say is not true. While there may be some similarities between an easier raid and those types of content, there are also very clear differences. Those differences may not matter to you, but they matter for the people who are complaining. The fact that their complaints don’t apply to you does not mean that their complaints do not matter.

If you want raids without complexity, you should be pushing for new fractals, not new raids.

If people wanted more Fractals, they would ask for more Fractals. The fact that they’re asking for more accessible Raids should be taken as a clue that they want more accessible Raids.

Raids and their mechanics:

1) people have to learn these mechanics when they’re new, both the player and the wing. Kind people post what they find so others can read up and have a head start.

2) guilds/friends are a good place to start with looking for groups accepting of new people. Personally, I teach people in my guild and when we need to pug spots we don’t ask anything but the ability to listen.

3) raids do NOT need certain comps (2 chrono, 2 Druid…etc). The first boss was beaten by THREE people. Almost all bosses have been beaten where everyone was one class, everyone was a healer, etc. don’t let comp fool you. SUGGESTED comps are there to help new comers have an easier time with it, as enrage mode is not the end of the world, but certainly a harder world.

Ohoni.6057:

This content already exists, in dungeons, fractals, and open world pve.

Nope. If that were true then people wouldn’t be asking. The fact that people are asking is indication that what you say is not true. While there may be some similarities between an easier raid and those types of content, there are also very clear differences. Those differences may not matter to you, but they matter for the people who are complaining. The fact that their complaints don’t apply to you does not mean that their complaints do not matter.

If you want raids without complexity, you should be pushing for new fractals, not new raids.

If people wanted more Fractals, they would ask for more Fractals. The fact that they’re asking for more accessible Raids should be taken as a clue that they want more accessible Raids.

Please specifically tell me some of these differences, because I don’t see them.

No, you just hold values that most players don’t share. And it’s unlikely you’ll move on these values. If we continue this convoluted metaphor, I’ll just move on to doing something else.

Which, coincidentally enough, is also true of Raids. Raids in their current form also hold values that most GW2 players do not share, and if they stay that way, then most players will continue to do something else.

Please specifically tell me some of these differences, because I don’t see them.

Really? Have you played Fractals? Or Raids? They seem very different to me. Raids have parties of ten people, while Fractals only 5. Raids take place in the Forsaken Thicket, and have currently nine different major encounters to them, none of which are available in Fractals. Fractals have a path to a Legendary Backpack and other items, Raids offer a path to Legendary armor, and a completely different set of items. Fractals involve Agony and AR, while Raids do not have this mechanic. Honestly I don’t see much that makes them similar, other than that they are both instanced group content.

But I’ll make a deal with you, if they make new low-tier Fractals that:

1. Involve the content and enemies of the Forsaken Thicket maps.

2. Allow reasonable progress towards Envoy Armor.

3. do not require AR.

then I’ll give up on easy mode raids. Allowing 10-man teams would be nice, but not a deal-breaker.

thrag.9740:

Please specifically tell me some of these differences, because I don’t see them.

Thats pretty simple. Raids offer unique rewards, that other modes don’t have. End of relevant differences.

But unlike the unique rewards from the other parts of the game, those rewards seem to have a magical appeal to people that don’t want to play that content the way it is supposed to be played.

Raid accessibility is perfectly fine.
Accessibility only defines the requirements to enter the raid. It has nothing to do with the ability to actually clear the content. Stop misusing words.

As people like to compare it to WoWs LFR, LFR has a minimum Item-Level that is needed to enter it, same for the dungeon tool. Do you want a artifical barrier for raids, that you can only enter the LFG-tool with a minimum of 5 pieces of ascended equipment? You can’t enter it as soon as you hit max level in WoW.

All 3 raid wings have been cleared in green equipment, there is no equipment barrier, no attunement process, you can enter any wing you want.
Raid groups can be formed by anyone.
So just create a group and enter it. It can’t get anymore accessible than it already is.
Community restrictions for groups have nothing to do with accessibility.

Not everybody needs to clear all content at the first try and some people won’t complete some content.

Shadowstep.6049:

zoomborg.9462:

Ohoni is the typical example of a delusional, entitled and lazy casual. This post will probably get deleted as its more fitting for reddit but w/e.

Go make new account, get yours lvs and gear, try to get into raid- anything besides VG. GL on it.

Lol u said u we’re lucky to find a guild that takes u into any fight?

I never actually found that. I started alone and about 99% of my raids are pugs and im still pugging since i don’t want to put a raid schedule with a static team, there u go, enough with the excuses.

I’ll totally create a new account and start raiding from scratch on 2 conditions.
1) Feel free to pay for that account.
2) You create another account so we can compare progress.

Come at me bruh!

Thats pretty simple. Raids offer unique rewards, that other modes don’t have. End of relevant differences.

You forget that it takes place in a unique map with unique encounters. Those aren’t available anywhere else (although VG and Sloth sort of happen on other maps, not really).

But unlike the unique rewards from the other parts of the game, those rewards seem to have a magical appeal to people that don’t want to play that content the way it is supposed to be played.

Not true, there are plenty of other rewards in the game that can only be found in certain content, and people who don’t enjoy that content complain about those. I mean, every time anyone mentions Legendary Armor only being in Raids, someone complains about how Legendary Weapons currently require World Completion (or a decent amount of Gold).

Raid accessibility is perfectly fine.
Accessibility only defines the requirements to enter the raid. It has nothing to do with the ability to actually clear the content. Stop misusing words.

I’m afraid you’re misusing it, at least in this context. “Accessibility” in a game means not just being able to get through the door, but actually being able to complete it. If word usage bothers you, then any time ANYONE says “accessibility” in these forums, substitute “ability to complete the content,” because that’s what they will mean.

As people like to compare it to WoWs LFR, LFR has a minimum Item-Level that is needed to enter it, same for the dungeon tool. Do you want a artifical barrier for raids, that you can only enter the LFG-tool with a minimum of 5 pieces of ascended equipment? You can’t enter it as soon as you hit max level in WoW.

No, but there’s no reason for that here, so it’s a pointless diversion.

All 3 raid wings have been cleared in green equipment, there is no equipment barrier, no attunement process, you can enter any wing you want.
Raid groups can be formed by anyone.
So just create a group and enter it. It can’t get anymore accessible than it already is.
Community restrictions for groups have nothing to do with accessibility.

and yet, no matter how many times you insist that it’s suuuuuuuuuper easy, there are people that report back that the current version just does not work for them. End of story. You cannot argue that fact away. So the only two options are, “give the people what they want,” or “be fine with them not having what they want.” “The players will eventually be happy with the current option” is not on the table.

I can easily guess which one you will choose, but since ANet has an interest in keeping their customers satisfied, they might think differently.

Ohoni.6057:

Thats pretty simple. Raids offer unique rewards, that other modes don’t have. End of relevant differences.

You forget that it takes place in a unique map with unique encounters. Those aren’t available anywhere else (although VG and Sloth sort of happen on other maps, not really).

You admitted yourself in older threads that you just want the rewards and don’t care about the mechanics of the bosses.

Raid accessibility is perfectly fine.
Accessibility only defines the requirements to enter the raid. It has nothing to do with the ability to actually clear the content. Stop misusing words.

I’m afraid you’re misusing it, at least in this context. “Accessibility” in a game means not just being able to get through the door, but actually being able to complete it. If word usage bothers you, then any time ANYONE says “accessibility” in these forums, substitute “ability to complete the content,” because that’s what they will mean.

No. Most of the time it is actually about pug requirements. Which is a part of the accessibility but not a problem of the game itself.
Accessibility can’t get any lower for organised group content than it already is.

As people like to compare it to WoWs LFR, LFR has a minimum Item-Level that is needed to enter it, same for the dungeon tool. Do you want a artifical barrier for raids, that you can only enter the LFG-tool with a minimum of 5 pieces of ascended equipment? You can’t enter it as soon as you hit max level in WoW.

No, but there’s no reason for that here, so it’s a pointless diversion.

WoW in general has nothing to do with the raid, content and story structure in GW2 and you can’t compare them but people still bring it up frequently.
Raids aren’t the only major content updates, they are no integral part of the story and you can’t get better equipment that is needed to advance further into content.

All 3 raid wings have been cleared in green equipment, there is no equipment barrier, no attunement process, you can enter any wing you want.
Raid groups can be formed by anyone.
So just create a group and enter it. It can’t get anymore accessible than it already is.
Community restrictions for groups have nothing to do with accessibility.

and yet, no matter how many times you insist that it’s suuuuuuuuuper easy, there are people that report back that the current version just does not work for them. End of story. You cannot argue that fact away. So the only two options are, “give the people what they want,” or “be fine with them not having what they want.” “The players will eventually be happy with the current option” is not on the table.

I can easily guess which one you will choose, but since ANet has an interest in keeping their customers satisfied, they might think differently.

Raids were never meant for that kind of audience, so why should they care? If they leave because they can’t play that tiny part of the whole game they wouldn’t play much longer anyway.

And we still have to define how easy the easy mode should be. If you only want to lower the bar until you can complete it, you exclude everyone below you making you as selfish as you claim the raid community is and thus making an easy mode obsolete because it is only about yourself. The game does not need to be changed to fit only your needs.

You admitted yourself in older threads that you just want the rewards and don’t care about the mechanics of the bosses.

No, you “admitted” that for me, something which I disagreed with ever single time, which most people would take as a clue. . .

What I actually “admitted” is that the mechanics of the fight definitely mattered to me, and I wanted them left as intact as possible. All I wanted to see was a toning down of the “penalty” for missing them, so that mistakes were more recoverable.

No. Most of the time it is actually about pug requirements. Which is a part of the accessibility but not a problem of the game itself.
Accessibility can’t get any lower for organised group content than it already is.

It can, and it should. The current trouble with finding pug groups is that:

1. Some groups have requirements that an individual player may be unable to meet (gearing, prior skill, TS, guild participation, etc.).

2. Of the remaining groups, they may fail to complete the content, because too many of the members fall into category 1.

An easier version would solve both of these issues, because having less than ideal builds, gearing, or prior experience is not as big a deal. You can just grab the nearest nine other players who are vaguely interested, jump in, and complete the content in a few attempts at most.

WoW in general has nothing to do with the raid, content and story structure in GW2 and you can’t compare them but people still bring it up frequently.

You were the one that brought it up. I don’t bring up WoW since I haven’t played it in about 11 years.

Raids aren’t the only major content updates, they are no integral part of the story and you can’t get better equipment that is needed to advance further into content.

As true a statement as it is irrelevant.

Raids were never meant for that kind of audience, so why should they care?

Because the game isn’t just for people who like raids the way they are. It doesn’t matter in the slightest how raids were “intended to be,” what matters is what the players want them to be. There is tons of content in the game that are not what they were “intended to be,” and by and large, players prefer them this new way, OR ANet has completely overhauled them into this new form due to player complaints. Dungeons were originally “intended to be” raid-difficulty content, turns out that they weren’t, and further turns out that the people who play GW2 LOVE them that way.

If they leave because they can’t play that tiny part of the whole game they wouldn’t play much longer anyway.

And if raiders leave because players are offered the choice of an easier version, then they wouldn’t play much longer anyway either, and there are a lot fewer of them, so they’d matter even less.

And we still have to define how easy the easy mode should be. If you only want to lower the bar until you can complete it, you exclude everyone below you making you as selfish as you claim the raid community is and thus making an easy mode obsolete because it is only about yourself.

I believe the game has a basic difficulty level to it already. Most of the game is within a margin of error of this difficulty level. Raids are significantly harder than that level. I believe it’s reasonable to have a version at roughly the same level of difficulty as the other content. If a player is incapable of completing ANY of the content in the game, then the entire game just isn’t for them, and that’s fine. The problem with raids is that it’s a small area that even players who can complete 99% of the game can struggle to complete regularly, which is a problem because it hurts the enjoyment of a player who otherwise would enjoy 100% of the game.

Basically it’s better to have a game that’s 100% VIP room than to have a game that’s 99% for “casual” and then 1% for VIPs, because at least in the former case, everyone knows the challenge level going in. It’s better to alienate people who only want a hardcore experience, and thus wouldn’t enjoy most of the game anyway, than to alienate players that enjoy the vast majority of the game.

If you take in someone below that level, then you will need to offset that person with some players skilled at above that level, but as with dungeons, that would be doable. Since experts can carry worthless players in the current raids, moderately skilled players could just as easily carry worthless players in the easier version, but more players would be capable of carrying themselves, so it’ll work out better overall.

The game does not need to be changed to fit only your needs.

Agreed, and as I believe I’ve told you several times in the past, if it were just about me, if I were the only one bothered, then they should NEVER do this. EVER. I am by no means worth it.

But I do not believe that to be the case, I do not believe that I’m the only one that would benefit from this change, and I believe the number who would benefit would far outweigh the number that would be harmed by it. Now I don’t have numbers to back that up and neither do you, but ANet has them, or at least is capable of compiling them, and the decision is in their court.

Ohoni.6057:

No, you “admitted” that for me, something which I disagreed with ever single time, which most people would take as a clue. . .

What I actually “admitted” is that the mechanics of the fight definitely mattered to me, and I wanted them left as intact as possible. All I wanted to see was a toning down of the “penalty” for missing them, so that mistakes were more recoverable.

Thats why you want them at a point where they can just be ignored. You can recover from every mechanic except a full wipe at Gorseval’s World Eater right now.

It can, and it should. The current trouble with finding pug groups is that:

1. Some groups have requirements that an individual player may be unable to meet (gearing, prior skill, TS, guild participation, etc.).

2. Of the remaining groups, they may fail to complete the content, because too many of the members fall into category 1.

An easier version would solve both of these issues, because having less than ideal builds, gearing, or prior experience is not as big a deal. You can just grab the nearest nine other players who are vaguely interested, jump in, and complete the content in a few attempts at most.

No it can not. There will be always ways for experienced players to exclude inexperienced players.
There is no room for unorganised groups when mechanics that matter and you need to pay attention are in place. You said mechanics matter. So either mechanics matter or you can jump in and complete it within a few tries. Pick one, you can not have both in the same mode.

Raids are organised group content. If you don’t want that kind of content don’t play it.
Triple Trouble needs a high amount of organisation, is an open world event and nobody complains about it if they can’t complete it with a random group.

VG has been killed by 3 people. All 3 wings have been cleared with green equipment. There is enough room for less optimal builds, just not for builds with no synergy at all.
If you want to play your condition greatsword warrior, there is always open world.

You were the one that brought it up. I don’t bring up WoW since I haven’t played it in about 11 years.

People bring it up all the time. Because WoW is the radiant example for multiple difficulties.
It never worked for them. Even the lead designer of the systems said it was his worst mistake in his whole career.
WoW introduced it because raids are the main content of content patches and the main story continues there after the initial release quests.

Raids in GW2 are a tiny part of the entire content. So why do we need to delay that content type or slow down other content production for people that are not the target audience?

Raids aren’t the only major content updates, they are no integral part of the story and you can’t get better equipment that is needed to advance further into content.

As true a statement as it is irrelevant.

No it is not, content always exclude people. Not everyone plays everything.
Raids are the smallest part of the entire game.

Because the game isn’t just for people who like raids the way they are. It doesn’t matter in the slightest how raids were “intended to be,” what matters is what the players want them to be. There is tons of content in the game that are not what they were “intended to be,” and by and large, players prefer them this new way, OR ANet has completely overhauled them into this new form due to player complaints. Dungeons were originally “intended to be” raid-difficulty content, turns out that they weren’t, and further turns out that the people who play GW2 LOVE them that way.

And because the dungeons are sooo loved almost noone plays them anymore after the gold nerf.
The playerbase wanted T4 fractals to be the missing piece between raids and dungeons/fractals and it was not ANet’s decision to make them harder to fulfill that role, thats why it was recieved well by people who had problems afterwards.

Most of the content is actually on the level it is intended to be. Not everything needs to be faceroll. Give me one example of actual content in the current game, not the past, that is not on the intended level (intended level, not the level you want it to be).

There is no base difficulty. HoT has another difficulty than Core Tyria, Orr is harder than the Rest of Core Tyria.
If you want it at Core Tyria difficulty, didn’t you say you care about mechanics?

People crying about raid difficulty are even less than raider, so yeah we can accept that they leave. The rest just ignore the raids.
See I can make up statements without numbers too, like you always do.

Your believes are not relevant and a steady output of raids and open world/LS content is far more valueble than a slowed down production of both for easy mode raids.

Thats why you want them at a point where they can just be ignored. You can recover from every mechanic except a full wipe at Gorseval’s World Eater right now.

An experienced team, maybe, but that’s not what we’re talking about. Stop raising examples of how minimalist a fully expert team can be at beating raid bosses, it does nothing to help your case that “raids can be for everyone in their current form.”

And I’ve said I don’t want it so that you can always ignore the mechanics completely, just that the penalties are much less severe. Less people down, and more time to rez them. I mean if you ignore the mechanics in the Ember Bay Jade fight then he’ll kill you, but most players can get by anyway (and no, I’m not suggesting that as the intended level).

No it can not. There will be always ways for experienced players to exclude inexperienced players.

Of course, but the difference would be that it wouldn’t matter. Sure, experienced players can and likely still would exclude newbs, because they would make the encounters take longer, but newbs could still group up themselves, finish the group much quicker because they would less need to be selective and more players would be actively trying, and then that group of newbs would be likely to complete the content in short order and move on to their next activity of the day.

That’s the difference.

There’s no way to prevent players from excluding weaker players, aside from like purely random draw teams or something like solo-queue, and that would be kinda dumb. But you don’t HAVE to prevent experienced players from excluding new players so long as new players can have fun without them.

You said mechanics matter. So either mechanics matter or you can jump in and complete it within a few tries. Pick one, you can not have both in the same mode.

The mechanics matter in most fights in this game (aside from EB Sloth), and people pick them up just fine. The mechanics would still matter, they just wouldn’t be as life or death as they currently are.

Raids are organised group content. If you don’t want that kind of content don’t play it.

You say that, and then also say that if players don’t want to raid then they don’t deserve Legendary armor. Which is it? You can’t have it both ways.

Triple Trouble needs a high amount of organisation, is an open world event and nobody complains about it if they can’t complete it with a random group.

Sure, but the high player cap means it’s not that hard to find an occasional organized TT round, I’ve beaten it several times. Also, you aren’t expected to complete it dozens of times in order to get fancy rewards, so you only need to do it a handful of times. The best they have to offer there is normal Ascended armor that hasn’t been cleaned properly.

People bring it up all the time. Because WoW is the radiant example for multiple difficulties.
It never worked for them. Even the lead designer of the systems said it was his worst mistake in his whole career.

Again, you were the one that brought up WoW, not “people.” And WoW’s difficulties may not have worked out for you, but a lot of people seemed to like them, and if I were still playing WoW, I’d likely be one of them.

Raids in GW2 are a tiny part of the entire content. So why do we need to delay that content type or slow down other content production for people that are not the target audience?

Because those people who aren’t the target audience are a larger group than the ones that are the target audience, and don’t want to be excluded. By your own argument, why should ANet even waste time developing raids in the first place if only such a tiny part of the player population actually enjoys them in their current state?

No it is not, content always exclude people. Not everyone plays everything.
Raids are the smallest part of the entire game.

And yet it locks out some of the fanciest rewards. You know what makes up only a very tiny part of the Earth’s surface? Gold, and yet people still seem to think gold’s pretty interesting to have around.

And because the dungeons are sooo loved almost noone plays them anymore after the gold nerf.

The dungeons are four year old content, with barely even a slight content update since launch, of course fewer people are playing them. See how many people are playing Spirit Vale regularly in three years time when most players are on Raid 3 and “Omegagorbomode” which is a game type so awesome you can’t even imagine it. The game continues to grow, old content gets stale, that doesn’t mean that players no longer want what the old content offered, just that they need a new flavor of it to remain interested.

Give me one example of actual content in the current game, not the past, that is not on the intended level (intended level, not the level you want it to be).

How would that even work? I mean, how would one find an example of that, without actually knowing what “the intended level” is meant to be? I’ve been playing a lot of Ember Bay lately, and I think it’d be fair to say that Sloth Queen is likely still not as hard as they intended her to be. I would also hope that the Jade Armor takes longer to kill than they intended, it’s not hard, exactly, but it’s a real HP grinder. Dom is also easy, but at least it scales well overall. I’m really not sure what you’re looking for though.

Your believes are not relevant and a steady output of raids and open world/LS content is far more valueble than a slowed down production of both for easy mode raids.

Again, an easy mode raid should not take significant time. All the assets already exist, all it would be is tuning. They even included alternate versions of VG and Sloth in LW content, and I wouldn’t be surprised if more turn up. Just taking what they currently has at a “10,” and dialing it back to a “7” or so should not absorb massive amounts of developer time, so forgive me if your “if they tried easy mode raids it would grind everything else to a standstill” arguments fall completely flat for me.

Btw, I’ve mentioned it elsewhere, but I think it’s worth mentioning here. I’ve been playing a mobile game, and most of it is fairly easy, but they have some content that is “raid difficulty,” solo, of course, but similar boss fight mechanics to what you get in GW2 raids, plenty of one-hit kills and other complicated elements. As you might expect, I had a really hard time with this mode at first. I couldn’t pass it at all, even though on paper I had at least a few strong characters that other players were able to beat it with. You needed to complete this mode to unlock some of the strongest characters in the game.

I gave up on the move completely. A few months later though. they added a character that is universally considered “OP,” basically a strong tank with very high damage. Using this character, and a little more practice, I was able to start beating these raid encounters.

Now obviously I would be able to beat it with an overpowered character, I don’t take excessive pride in that, but the thing is, you’re able to beat the boss up to five times per day, so if you only win once you’re leaving 4/5 of the prize on the table, and you can only use each character once per day. So I started trying other characters, and having beaten it with one, I started getting better and better at it, and I’m now able to 5/5 most days of the week, and I’m working on maybe getting the remaining few up there too.

I never would have gotten there without that OP character though. I find that I’m completely incapable of learning in a high-stress environment. If I’m worried that I might fail if I make a mistake, then I’m just running on adrenaline from moment to moment, and never get anywhere. To actually learn, I need a low-stress environment, I need to be able to run the content and not have to worry too much, knowing that if I make a mistake, I can recover from it and continue forward regardless. Then, and only then, can I start to learn how and why mistakes occur that would have killed me under more punishing circumstances, which means that when things do get hard again, I’m ready for them.

You may not need an easy mode, and may not respect it, but I just feel that if an easy mode existed, then a lot more players could enjoy raiding, and eventually a lot more of them would be able to help you complete raids, once they got a little practice in.

Ohoni.6057:

You may not need an easy mode, and may not respect it, but I just feel that if an easy mode existed, then a lot more players could enjoy raiding, and eventually a lot more of them would be able to help you complete raids, once they got a little practice in.

Yet a way to an easy mode that we’ve seen posted is by changing completely how mechanics work (notably 1-shot kills) which means their value as training would be effectively zero. If the easier raid difficulties are beaten by completely different compositions, completely different skill usage then what’s the point of having an easy mode for training purposes?

Yet a way to an easy mode that we’ve seen posted is by changing completely how mechanics work (notably 1-shot kills) which means their value as training would be effectively zero.

Yes, but as you’ll note, I have ALWAYS been opposed to such changes. I believe the mechanics should remain 100% intact, just weaker. So yes, a OHKO might be reduced to a mere “deadly wound” from which one may recover, but avoiding the attack would require exactly the same level of timing. That “OP” character I mentioned largely functioned by being indestructible about half the time, think a Guardian that could pop Shield of Courage on a five second CD, so most of the OHKO attacks can be avoided there, but you’d still know they were there.

If the easier raid difficulties are beaten by completely different compositions, completely different skill usage then what’s the point of having an easy mode for training purposes?

I believe we’ve been over this before too. They allow players to test their skills against the mechanics, the only difference being that if they fail the encounter doesn’t immediately end. If a player gets into a pug that only wants to clear the easy mode, then he can at least still test his own reflexes against various mechanics, watch the boss and get the tells and timings down. If the player joins a group advertised as “training run,” then each player would be expected to pantomime the hard mode difficulty strategies, even if they aren’t strictly necessary, such that if they all perform well, and had their plays performance captured, then mimicking that performance against the hard mode boss would also lead to victory because the movements would be the same. A sparring match is not a lethal fistfight, the power behind the blows is toned down so that the attacks deal little or no damage, but if you take it seriously it can still help you learn the moves you’d need to use in an actual fight.

Ohoni.6057:

An experienced team, maybe, but that’s not what we’re talking about. Stop raising examples of how minimalist a fully expert team can be at beating raid bosses, it does nothing to help your case that “raids can be for everyone in their current form.”

And I’ve said I don’t want it so that you can always ignore the mechanics completely, just that the penalties are much less severe. Less people down, and more time to rez them. I mean if you ignore the mechanics in the Ember Bay Jade fight then he’ll kill you, but most players can get by anyway (and no, I’m not suggesting that as the intended level).

The only punishing mechanic at VG, the green circle, can already healed through. If you lower the damage it becomes irrelevant. If you lower the amount of people needed it doesn’t become less punishing, only less sources of failure.
The line between less punishing and irrelevant is extremly small to not existent at the current mechanics.

Of course, but the difference would be that it wouldn’t matter. Sure, experienced players can and likely still would exclude newbs, because they would make the encounters take longer, but newbs could still group up themselves, finish the group much quicker because they would less need to be selective and more players would be actively trying, and then that group of newbs would be likely to complete the content in short order and move on to their next activity of the day.

That’s the difference.

There’s no way to prevent players from excluding weaker players, aside from like purely random draw teams or something like solo-queue, and that would be kinda dumb. But you don’t HAVE to prevent experienced players from excluding new players so long as new players can have fun without them.

New players can have fun without experienced players in raids right now.
The instant gratification crowd is a different thing.

The mechanics matter in most fights in this game (aside from EB Sloth), and people pick them up just fine. The mechanics would still matter, they just wouldn’t be as life or death as they currently are.

Mechanics in EB work because you can’t complete the encounter without them (like the shield from the dominator or jade armor).
Many raid mechanics are different. You need to do them because they kill you, not because they are needed to complete the encounter. Nerf them and they become irrelevant.

You say that, and then also say that if players don’t want to raid then they don’t deserve Legendary armor. Which is it? You can’t have it both ways.

I never said that. I’m fine with a different set in a different game mode. They just don’t deserve the raid skin. Just like the legendary backpack.

Sure, but the high player cap means it’s not that hard to find an occasional organized TT round, I’ve beaten it several times. Also, you aren’t expected to complete it dozens of times in order to get fancy rewards, so you only need to do it a handful of times. The best they have to offer there is normal Ascended armor that hasn’t been cleaned properly.

TT has unique hand and shoulder skins.

Again, you were the one that brought up WoW, not “people.” And WoW’s difficulties may not have worked out for you, but a lot of people seemed to like them, and if I were still playing WoW, I’d likely be one of them.

They didn’t worked they were intended to work. They led to a ciclycal subscriber count, which overall reduced the revenue instead of making people to try out higher difficulties.

Because those people who aren’t the target audience are a larger group than the ones that are the target audience, and don’t want to be excluded. By your own argument, why should ANet even waste time developing raids in the first place if only such a tiny part of the player population actually enjoys them in their current state?

As raids are a huge success and exceeded most expectations, the raid community is not as small as you make it.

Proof that the group of people who care about raids but are not able to complete it is bigger than the raid community?

And yet it locks out some of the fanciest rewards. You know what makes up only a very tiny part of the Earth’s surface? Gold, and yet people still seem to think gold’s pretty interesting to have around.

Gold is actually one of the more common metals, artifically high valued…

I’m perfectly fine with a different set of legendary armor in a different game mode.

There is no solo content with raid like difficulty. A huge part of the raid difficulty is the coordination between the group members, solo play can’t reproduce this.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but as you’ll note, I have ALWAYS been opposed to such changes.

If it doesn’t kill you then you won’t avoid it but take it face value. As an example the green circles of VG are rarely, if ever, used in low-man clears because with a low amount of players you can ignore their damage with skills or healing after they hit.
For instance, if they do the same with Gorseval’s World Eater attack then the players won’t avoid the attack by running to the Wall and using the updraft. Instead they will take the damage then heal it, or use invulnerability to ignore the damage completely, or dodge it, or do anything the easier mode will allow you to do, other than how the normal version works.

They allow players to test their skills against the mechanics, the only difference being that if they fail the encounter doesn’t immediately end.

But if the mechanics aren’t the same then we have the same problem as above.
And besides if the encounter doesn’t immediately end it means you won’t practice that part that would’ve killed you until you get it right. For the example of World Eater above, if your team fails to phase Gorseval or break the wall and just take some damage and survive it, they won’t have the chance to practice that attack again.

“Look we failed that, in the normal version we would’ve died so remember in 2 weeks when you run this part again try better.” not very informative nor of any value as training at all.

Shadowstep.6049:

and wipe over and over again?

And here we have the real issue. People afraid to fail, thinking that makes raids inaccessible.

Here’s the short and skinny of it. Those so called “ELITIST” all tried an failed too, what makes you think you’re an exception to the rule ? Unless maybe the elitist isn’t quite who you think it is.

NikeEU.7690:

Raids currently are already easy mode. Oh, they aren’t easy enough for you? unfortunately that is based on your personal pov and the devs cannot create a custom tailored difficulty level for each individual in the game.

The big problem is anet could develop an easy mode that satisfies some of the lazy bad players but is still too hard for others and those others will still complain. Nothing will be resolved because eventually at some point the developers have to draw a line, and the current easy mode raids are it.

Yes exactly. It’s very easy to say “give us easy mode” yet there is no discussion over how this supposed easier would work.
What if the new easy mode, isn’t easy enough for many people? Will we make more easy modes then? How many? Or will the easy mode be about hitting a giant sack of HP while semi-afk, like a lot of the open world bosses, so it’s accessible by everyone?

And that’s without mentioning rewards. It’s a total mess.

Ohoni.6057:

Please specifically tell me some of these differences, because I don’t see them.

Really? Have you played Fractals? Or Raids? They seem very different to me. Raids have parties of ten people, while Fractals only 5. Raids take place in the Forsaken Thicket, and have currently nine different major encounters to them, none of which are available in Fractals. Fractals have a path to a Legendary Backpack and other items, Raids offer a path to Legendary armor, and a completely different set of items. Fractals involve Agony and AR, while Raids do not have this mechanic. Honestly I don’t see much that makes them similar, other than that they are both instanced group content.

But I’ll make a deal with you, if they make new low-tier Fractals that:

1. Involve the content and enemies of the Forsaken Thicket maps.

2. Allow reasonable progress towards Envoy Armor.

3. do not require AR.

then I’ll give up on easy mode raids. Allowing 10-man teams would be nice, but not a deal-breaker.

Yes, Raids and Fractals are very different, because of the coordination required in raids. I asked you for the differences between ‘raids without complexity’ and fractals, and your answers were AR, maps/enemies, and legendary armor.

1.) AR: I agree AR is lame. But it is largely irrelevant, as you set up your characters one time, and its ignored until anet once again overhauls fractals. In fact compared to the cost of legendaries, getting enough AR is quite cheap. It is also completely absent in dungeons.

2.) Maps/enemies: Anet could make a new fractal based on the white mantle. That would be cool. They could also make a new dungeon based on the white mantle. Also cool.

3.) The only thing legendary armor gives you is stat swapping, and skins. These are both easily given to players via the old dungeon system, which made exotics so easy to obtain you could easily carry around multiple sets. They could also put new skin drops from a new white mantle based fractal. These skins could also be purchasable with fractal currencies.

What your asking for, ‘raids without complexity’ is a huge fundamental change to raids. However, all of your goals fit very well within the existing dungeon frame work, and can also fit in the existing fractal frame work.

So, if your going to try to push anet in the direction you want on the forums, I think you would be better off pushing for one of these options, as they are less of an overhaul, and more so an expansion of content. Additionally, if you made a thread like, “Anet should make a white mantle dungeon/fractal”, you would probably see a ton of support from this forum, opposed to the resistance you are experiencing.

The only punishing mechanic at VG, the green circle, can already healed through. If you lower the damage it becomes irrelevant. If you lower the amount of people needed it doesn’t become less punishing, only less sources of failure.
The line between less punishing and irrelevant is extremly small to not existent at the current mechanics.

Damage is never completely irrelevant. If people regularly get downed to the attack, then it’s significant enough that it could perhaps be softened. Another element that could be tweaked down is to reduce the damage of the damaging floor panels so that you can more easily get off of them if you mess up, and also to reduce his overall HP and/or remove the timer, so that you need less DPS to clear it in time.

I fully expect you to say that you don’t need any of that, but what you need is not the point of this.

New players can have fun without experienced players in raids right now.

No.

New players can experience hours of frustration. Most players do not find that to be fun. You might enjoy frustration, most do not. You don’t have to agree, but you cannot change that fact either.

I never said that. I’m fine with a different set in a different game mode. They just don’t deserve the raid skin. Just like the legendary backpack.

To you, a skin is just a skin, just a tag that denotes an achievement. To me, and to many others, a skin is important on its own merit, regardless of where it comes from. I will never accept “you just can’t ever have this skin unless you raid.” If they want a title, or a nametag flair, or some other non-skin way of denoting that someone is a dedicated raider, then that’s fine, but so long as Envoy armor is exclusive to raiding, they need to make raids more accessible.

TT has unique hand and shoulder skins.

No, it doesn’t, they are just generic Ascended armor with oozy bits.

They didn’t worked they were intended to work. They led to a ciclycal subscriber count, which overall reduced the revenue instead of making people to try out higher difficulties.

WoW’s been doing spectacularly well compared to other MMOs. I can’t imagine that higher difficulty would actually improve that, and find it more likely it would harm it. I get the impression from you that you think players like higher difficulty, that they enjoy progressively harder and harder challenges. I’m certain that some players like this very much, yourself presumably among them, but please understand that most gamers are not like that. They like a comfortable level of challenge that remains relatively consistent, and find constantly increasing challenge levels to be as burden, not a benefit.

Gold is actually one of the more common metals, artifically high valued…

Lol.

I’m perfectly fine with a different set of legendary armor in a different game mode.

Setting aside the above argument, it’s taken them over a year to almost get one weight of Legendary armor out. If they could guarantee a second set of Legendary armor launching at the same time that the first finally comes out, then fine, whatever, but given the far more likely scenario that even if they committed to an open world Legendary armor set it would take another year or two to become available, no, that’s unacceptable. It would be far easier for all involved to just make the existing set more available to the non-raider.

There is no solo content with raid like difficulty. A huge part of the raid difficulty is the coordination between the group members, solo play can’t reproduce this.

Nonsense. The personal difficulty is how you personally handle the mechanics you’re meant to handle. Other players do not increase difficulty, they just increase the chance of failure. It would be like if there were a contest to throw a basketball from the 3-point line, that would carry a certain level of difficulty. If they then made it so that the basket would randomly lock itself once every couple seconds, that would not increase the difficulty, it would just mean that even if you did your job perfectly, there would be a higher chance of failure. If they then sped that up to several times per second. it would again not increase the difficulty at all, just the odds of failure. High chance of failure should never be confused with difficulty, difficulty is ONLY about the choices you can make to effect the outcome.

Now if we were talking about my example from the other game, I was only highlighting that the content required similar player skill and attention as GW2 raids.

If it doesn’t kill you then you won’t avoid it but take it face value.

That’s entirely up to you, but the fact remains that you could choose to avoid it, and doing so would require the same reaction time and movements as doing it in hard mode.

For instance, if they do the same with Gorseval’s World Eater attack then the players won’t avoid the attack by running to the Wall and using the updraft. Instead they will take the damage then heal it, or use invulnerability to ignore the damage completely, or dodge it, or do anything the easier mode will allow you to do, other than how the normal version works.

Perhaps they could, but if they wanted to practice the actual encounter, they would be able to do it the same way that a hard mode raid would. . .

I don’t really understand why this concept seems so very difficult for you to grasp, that players might actually want to do more than the absolute minimum expected of them? You do understand that players do this all the time, right?

And besides if the encounter doesn’t immediately end it means you won’t practice that part that would’ve killed you until you get it right.

Sure you do. Instead of doing it like “phase 1, wipe, phase 1, wipe, 1,1,12,2,2,1,2,2,3,2,2,2,23,3,33, finished,” you would just do it “1, 1,2,2,3,2,3 finsihed” or faster. But the point isn’t to have the encounter completely mastered by the first time you complete it, you would do it the next time, and the next, you would still be completing it on a weekly basis or more, and over time you would fully master the mechanics.

For some people, banging their head against the wall until the finally get it, and then moving on to the next step is the best way for them to learn. For others that’s an awful way to learn, and they learn better by succeeding at the task over and over, but doing it better each time.

And here we have the real issue. People afraid to fail, thinking that makes raids inaccessible.

Here’s the short and skinny of it. Those so called “ELITIST” all tried an failed too, what makes you think you’re an exception to the rule ? Unless maybe the elitist isn’t quite who you think it is.

Different players have different personalities and enjoy different types of content. Players who do not enjoy constantly wiping are not worse than players who are fine with it, they just enjoy different things from a game. We’re all here to have fun, so the systems should be designed so that each can play the way they enjoy.

Raids currently are already easy mode. Oh, they aren’t easy enough for you? unfortunately that is based on your personal pov and the devs cannot create a custom tailored difficulty level for each individual in the game.

No, but they can and in many cases have provided a range of experiences so that multiple types of players can enjoy the content.

The big problem is anet could develop an easy mode that satisfies some of the lazy bad players but is still too hard for others and those others will still complain. Nothing will be resolved because eventually at some point the developers have to draw a line, and the current easy mode raids are it.

No, this is a silly argument. If they tune it to be roughly equivalent to other content in the game, then nobody would have serious basis for complaint. Sure, it might be a bit harder than some people would want, but it would be easy enough for enough of the players that it would reach a critical mass of participation, and even the weaker players could just get carried through it without the other players feeling burdened by it.

What if the new easy mode, isn’t easy enough for many people? Will we make more easy modes then?

Let’s be clear, ONE easy mode. There will never be a need for two or more easy modes, that’s a strawman argument. That ONE easy mode should be balanced to the level where a team of average non-raiders can clear it within a few attempts (with guides and preparation), equivalent to existing dungeon content. If they balance this successfully, then there will be no need for any lower tier of challenge than that. If there is sufficient demand for an even easier version, then they haven’t yet reached the right balance point, but that doesn’t mean they need to make a third mode, it just means they still need to tweak the balance of the existing one, as they constantly do for other content.

2.) Maps/enemies: Anet could make a new fractal based on the white mantle. That would be cool. They could also make a new dungeon based on the white mantle. Also cool.

They could, but they haven’t, so for the time being, it remains a distinction between the two.

3.) The only thing legendary armor gives you is stat swapping, and skins.

Yes, the skin is the important part.

They could also put new skin drops from a new white mantle based fractal. These skins could also be purchasable with fractal currencies.

They could, but again, they haven’t yet, so it’s still a distinction.

What your asking for, ‘raids without complexity’ is a huge fundamental change to raids.

It would be easier to make an easy mode raid than to build a raid-based Fractal. The easy mode raid would be to copy and paste the existing raid, and then tune a bunch of numbers in a database down. At most they would need to swap out a few boss skill affixes from things like “automatically kills” to “deals X amount of damage.” This is not completely trivial, but it’s not that much work.

To create Fractals for each of the Forsaken Thicket encounters, they would need to not only do ALL of that, but they would also have to redesign the encounter mechanics so that they are easily functional with only five players, they would need to incorporate and balance AR into the equation, they would need to balance for Fractal Instabilities, they would need to account for gliding, whcih Fractals currently do not have, and various other squirrely design changes that would be needed.

It’s also important to note that so far as I understand it, the Fractals are completely F2P from start to finish. Raids require HoT. So if they added “raid fractals,” then it would either give players F2P access to them (and create an unbalanced meta when things like mushrooms), or lock them off into their own separate part of the Fractals only accessible to HoT players. It would be a real mess from start to finish, and there’s absolutely no way that it would be “the simplest solution.”

So, if your going to try to push anet in the direction you want on the forums, I think you would be better off pushing for one of these options, as they are less of an overhaul, and more so an expansion of content. Additionally, if you made a thread like, “Anet should make a white mantle dungeon/fractal”, you would probably see a ton of support from this forum, opposed to the resistance you are experiencing.

Yes, because this forum wants the raids all to themselves, but this forum is not what matters. This is between ANet and the players, and what I propose is the easier option for ANet, and the better option for the players, whether the raiders like that or not.

Perhaps they could, but if they wanted to practice the actual encounter, they would be able to do it the same way that a hard mode raid would. . .

But it’s not the same encounter if it doesn’t instant kill you. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Let’s be clear, ONE easy mode. There will never be a need for two or more easy modes, that’s a strawman argument. That ONE easy mode should be balanced to the level where a team of average non-raiders can clear it within a few attempts (with guides and preparation), equivalent to existing dungeon content. If they balance this successfully, then there will be no need for any lower tier of challenge than that. If there is sufficient demand for an even easier version, then they haven’t yet reached the right balance point, but that doesn’t mean they need to make a third mode, it just means they still need to tweak the balance of the existing one, as they constantly do for other content.

It doesn’t take a genius to understand that that’s not possible. There is no such magical “balance” setting. So I ask again, because this magical balance doesn’t exist outside myths, what happens when some people can’t still do it? More difficulties yay!

And the alternative is to make this easy mode so easy that bosses are just sacks of hit points without any good mechanics. This entire paragraph of yours is a complete contradiction to your previous one. A “dungeon difficulty” of the boss means there is absolutely no training possible, so please either select an ultra low difficulty mode that the average Joe can do, or a higher than average (a lot higher) that has at least a fragment of the mechanics, or be honest and just say it you want access to legendary armor while doing dungeon-difficulty content. Pick one and stop going in circles.

This reads like a novel version of:
All Content Should Be Like Open World:
And All Skins Should Be Easy To Get Too

Personally, I think arah is ruining the game. New players in green armor can’t beat it. And my green armored friends don’t want to enjoy the other 90% of the game at their skill level.

Plus it had unique skins and recipes (they can’t beat pvp either). Declining revenues correspond with the release of gw2. Coincidence? No.

This post is satire, and demonstrates that guild wars 2 has always had hard, “exclusive” content.

So one poster on here wants the legendary armor but doesn’t want to put in the effort as everyone else. They then want raids nerfed to be more accessible to them so that they’re able to beat them. Based on their posts, they essentially want the difficulty dropped down to the level of existing dungeons which defeats the purpose of the raids in the first place.

Did I miss anything?

But it’s not the same encounter if it doesn’t instant kill you. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

It’s the same move. You react to it the same way. Let’s say you have a machine. The machine has a swing arm that comes down every two seconds, and a pad that you can hit as often as possible to rack up a score. In the swing arm is a sledgehammer, if it hits you, you might break some bones, but you want to avoid it, and hit the pad as often as possible. Now say there’s another one, everything identical, except that it’s armed with a plastic hammer instead. You’d have to do the exact same motions if you want to avoid the hammer, but the damage it does would be a lot less.

Now sure, you could choose to ignore the second hammer and just take the hits, but you could also choose to take the hammer seriously and use it to train your skills so that you could avoid it 100% of the time. Up to you, but the mechanics of the situation would be identical, so that it could remain a useful learning tool.

It doesn’t take a genius to understand that that’s not possible. There is no such magical “balance” setting. So I ask again, because this magical balance doesn’t exist outside myths, what happens when some people can’t still do it? More difficulties yay!

Are there more difficulties for Dungeons? For story missions? for world events? No. They balance them to one setting and leave it at that. I’m expecting a raid that will be set to that level. Again, the “infinite difficulty levels” strawman gains you nothing.

A “dungeon difficulty” of the boss means there is absolutely no training possible, so please either select an ultra low difficulty mode that the average Joe can do, or a higher than average (a lot higher) that has at least a fragment of the mechanics,

If the difficulty is so close to the original that the difference is negligable, then it will serve absolutely no purpose. It would be like selling shirts in two sizes, “Small” and “Extra Small”, and considering that a decent enough fit for anyone. The challenge level of the easy mode would have to be significantly different form the existing one.

just say it you want access to legendary armor while doing dungeon-difficulty content.

I’ve been pretty consistent on that one.

Personally, I think arah is ruining the game. New players in green armor can’t beat it. And my green armored friends don’t want to enjoy the other 90% of the game at their skill level.

I think I’ve got the ideal content for you. It’s this event chain in Wayfarer Foothills near where the Frozen Maw happens. You get to collect armor scraps and build snowman armies all day, and then they get destroyed and you can build them all again! Since you enjoy building strawmen so much, I can’t imagine anything in the game you would find as fun as that event. I think there’s also a version of it in Snowslide Ravine.

So one poster on here wants the legendary armor but doesn’t want to put in the effort as everyone else. They then want raids nerfed to be more accessible to them so that they’re able to beat them. Based on their posts, they essentially want the difficulty dropped down to the level of existing dungeons which defeats the purpose of the raids in the first place.

Did I miss anything?

Yes, that it’s more than one poster.

Now sure, you could choose to ignore the second hammer and just take the hits, but you could also choose to take the hammer seriously and use it to train your skills so that you could avoid it 100% of the time. Up to you, but the mechanics of the situation would be identical, so that it could remain a useful learning tool.

No it’s then useless for training. If you want to try to avoid it 100% then you’ll go to the normal mode. If you want to cheese it you’ll go to the easy mode. It’s just simple logic, why do you have the training version again?

Are there more difficulties for Dungeons? For story missions? for world events? No. They balance them to one setting and leave it at that. I’m expecting a raid that will be set to that level. Again, the “infinite difficulty levels” strawman gains you nothing.

There are. Different dungeons have completely different difficulty levels. Different story missions have completely different levels of difficulty. So which difficulty are you talking about? There are hundred difficulty levels.

How is the arah thing a strawman when it’s literally the same thing, aka someone not willing to put in effort and time to learn something?
Only difference is what one would perceive as different levels of difficulty. There’s also some rewards locked behind the paths. “B-but muh legendary armor is worth more” yeah no, while it definitely costs more resources to assemble and is arguably more flashy, there’s only value in it if you see value – and with raids getting an easy mode, that value will drop in the eyes of many.

In all those months where you desperately tried to get an easy mode raid (it’s been almost a year, shouldn’t it be time to realize something?) you could have learned raids and be really close to your legendary armor; yet, you decide to furiously type away.
When will you accept that you are the selfish one here?

Imagine there’s a machine with two colors. Each color corresponds to a danger level based on its hue. The higher the saturation, the more dangerous the machine is.

A colorblind person comes to operate the machine. He’s red-blue colorblind, not green-yellow. He pushes an azure button, thinking that it’s sapphire. He doesn’t learn anything, because he didn’t pull the levers.

This is why we only need one difficulty.

This post is satire, and intended to demonstrate how metaphors rarely contribute to the discussion.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

How is the arah thing a strawman when it’s literally the same thing, aka someone not willing to put in effort and time to learn something?
Only difference is what one would perceive as different levels of difficulty. There’s also some rewards locked behind the paths. “B-but muh legendary armor is worth more” yeah no, while it definitely costs more resources to assemble and is arguably more flashy, there’s only value in it if you see value – and with raids getting an easy mode, that value will drop in the eyes of many.

In all those months where you desperately tried to get an easy mode raid (it’s been almost a year, shouldn’t it be time to realize something?) you could have learned raids and be really close to your legendary armor; yet, you decide to furiously type away.
When will you accept that you are the selfish one here?

You also need to do arah or pvp if you want to make some of the legendaries, like bifrost.

Absurdo.8309:

Imagine there’s a machine with two colors. Each color corresponds to a danger level based on its hue. The higher the saturation, the more dangerous the machine is.

A colorblind person comes to operate the machine. He’s red-blue colorblind, not green-yellow. He pushes an azure button, thinking that it’s sapphire. He doesn’t learn anything, because he didn’t pull the levers.

This is why we only need one difficulty.

This post is satire, and intended to demonstrate how metaphors rarely contribute to the discussion.

They most often fail because the opposing party is unable to follow the poster’s argument and focuses on a part of the analogy/metaphor/whatever that is irrelavent to the point that they were making.

They work well in portraying a piece of the poster’s argument in a way that the opposing party can understand where they’re coming from more clearly. Unfortunately, if the opposing party is having difficulty following the poster’s argument, there will be confusion.

No analogy or metaphor is going to be exactly like the statement/argument that it is being used along with. What people tend to do is focus on the elements that are not the same rather than follow what the poster was trying to state.