An issue: raids and their accesibility
All I would like is to make the start, the access easier for players new to raids – even without guild.
How do you propose that is done?
As the topic title says, I think the accessibility to raids really is an issue.
That was pretty much my only goal yet, until the legendary armor was previewed.
It simply shouldn’t be that top tier content is limited to a small percentage of players.And that really is the case – I’m in a large guild and roughly 5-10% are successfully, experienced raiders.
Other people (and I think that’s reflecting in the rest of the gw2 community) simply don’t get into raids – cause of the reasons mentioned above.
You’d have to join a somewhat professional raid guild to be really succesful.
Now i’m gonna teach people who keep saying Raids are inaccessible a lesson real quick here.
You see that LFG tool. Use it.
Here’s what you do
1) Create your own group
2) Label it one of the following things, Inexperienced / Fun / Teaching / Learning run
3) Set you own req for comp & let people know what if any voice tools your using.
You are now the proud starter of a raid group.
Lets stop using this false equivocation that raids are inaccessible, when the cold reality is people whom claim this don’t want to put in the same effort those before them did in building raid groups & learning.
As the topic title says, I think the accessibility to raids really is an issue.
That was pretty much my only goal yet, until the legendary armor was previewed.
It simply shouldn’t be that top tier content is limited to a small percentage of players.And that really is the case – I’m in a large guild and roughly 5-10% are successfully, experienced raiders.
Other people (and I think that’s reflecting in the rest of the gw2 community) simply don’t get into raids – cause of the reasons mentioned above.
You’d have to join a somewhat professional raid guild to be really succesful.
Now i’m gonna teach people who keep saying Raids are inaccessible a lesson real quick here.
You see that LFG tool. Use it.
Here’s what you do
1) Create your own group
2) Label it one of the following things, Inexperienced / Fun / Teaching / Learning run
3) Set you own req for comp & let people know what if any voice tools your using.You are now the proud starter of a raid group.
Lets stop using this false equivocation that raids are inaccessible, when the cold reality is people whom claim this don’t want to put in the same effort those before them did in building raid groups & learning.
they could just create copys of the raids with much worse rewards yet also much easier. so people can practice the mechanics.
im bad at sarcasm
As the topic title says, I think the accessibility to raids really is an issue.
That was pretty much my only goal yet, until the legendary armor was previewed.
It simply shouldn’t be that top tier content is limited to a small percentage of players.And that really is the case – I’m in a large guild and roughly 5-10% are successfully, experienced raiders.
Other people (and I think that’s reflecting in the rest of the gw2 community) simply don’t get into raids – cause of the reasons mentioned above.
You’d have to join a somewhat professional raid guild to be really succesful.
Now i’m gonna teach people who keep saying Raids are inaccessible a lesson real quick here.
You see that LFG tool. Use it.
Here’s what you do
1) Create your own group
2) Label it one of the following things, Inexperienced / Fun / Teaching / Learning run
3) Set you own req for comp & let people know what if any voice tools your using.You are now the proud starter of a raid group.
Lets stop using this false equivocation that raids are inaccessible, when the cold reality is people whom claim this don’t want to put in the same effort those before them did in building raid groups & learning.
they could just create copys of the raids with much worse rewards yet also much easier. so people can practice the mechanics.
I think that for most, it’s not exactly the lfg that is the biggest problem in getting to do raids. You can create your own group, and you can learn it that way if inexperienced.
It’s the mechanics of the raids. You need to have a certain character setup, read: builds, in order to do it within the alloted time.
The mechanics of raids force players to play certain builds and group setups (having 2 chrono/druids/….etc, so that some classes are left out. If you don’t have dedicated healers, or if you do not have condi damagers, or anything else needed for that matter, you’ll fail.
There is no room whatsoever for any mistake(s) or any room for build diversity. That is the most annoying part. With the latest “balance” patch it’s even gotten worse, because most will demand a perfect setup because they don’t want to fail ANY run at all.
In other games it used to be that any failure, no matter how small would result in a total wipe. Anet has copied the view others had in their games albeit on a smaller scale.
That some content should be challenging i think everyone can agree on, but that certain content is placed behind specific builds and classes drives most players away from that content.
I believe that more then 90 % of the players in any mmo doesn’t like to feel forced to play a certain way, and while it might seem desirable to have challenging content, it’s the way it’s implemented that rubs ppl the wrong way.
And imagine this : why would one do the most challenging content in order to get the ‘best’ gear if that said gear is no better then the gear you already have ? Horizontal progression is fine, but forcing players into something just for looks and the ability to change gear build ‘on the fly’ (for the content not needed at all) seems for most over the top.
p.s. : as usual game dev’s cater to the minority. just look at ppl asking for a more challenging Lab.
(edited by Sthenith.5196)
Top tier content? Where?! Legendary stuff is pure fluff, not top tier content. Raids is the same tier as everything else. Its just raids. You dont have to do it. I know I dont. I still havent set foot in there and still play ~2h every day.
If you dont like random lfg demands, join a guild and run the raid with that guild. Its the entire purpose of guilds being in the game, running with friends.
And imagine this : why would one do the most challenging content in order to get the ‘best’ gear if that said gear is no better then the gear you already have ? Horizontal progression is fine, but forcing players into something just for looks and the ability to change gear build ‘on the fly’ (for the content not needed at all) seems for most over the top.
Then don’t do it. Yes, it is, as simple as that. If you dont enjoy the content, if you feel, as if the content force you to play in a certain way you dont enjoy and you dont like the rewards the said content provide, then don’t do it. Have anyone ever said that you are required to do -every- single content in this game and get -every- single piece of gear and skin in this game in order to enjoy it? No. Open world pve gives you the ability to play however you want, at your own leisure with whatever build you feel playing at any time. Raids are hard content for people that enjoy playing in well co-ordinated squad setups and most people who raid enjoy the content and the legendary armor is marely a bonus for them atop a content they love to play, other do it for the legendary armor alone even if they dont enjoy everything this content provide, but either way they are putting the effort into it. So no, legendary armor shouldn’t be made available to all else who aren’t prepare to put the effort towards it. That would simply devalue the item and the effort people who raid have been putting all this time.
A simple example: There is a lot of skins and gear in the game that I will never get, simply because I have no interest in doing the related content or because I dont enjoy it. Do you see me creating threats left and right about it in the forums, how this gear should be given to me in some other way or through content I enjoy? No, because I have accepted the fact, that I am -not- entitled to this reward if I dont go through the content and actually -earn- it with the means it was designed to do so. Its time you do the same.
If you want the armor, start learning raids and work towards it, if you are not ready or unwilling to do it, then simply accept that this armor is something you won’t get and move on with your life and game, but please stop dragging such threats forward, because you guys starting to sound like the little kids in the store that cry to their mummy when they are not given the candy they want. Sorry for being so blunt. I dont want to insult anyone, but thats how it starts to look with all the threads thats being popping around the forums lately.
(edited by Rain.7543)
As the topic title says, I think the accessibility to raids really is an issue.
That was pretty much my only goal yet, until the legendary armor was previewed.
It simply shouldn’t be that top tier content is limited to a small percentage of players.And that really is the case – I’m in a large guild and roughly 5-10% are successfully, experienced raiders.
Other people (and I think that’s reflecting in the rest of the gw2 community) simply don’t get into raids – cause of the reasons mentioned above.
You’d have to join a somewhat professional raid guild to be really succesful.
Now i’m gonna teach people who keep saying Raids are inaccessible a lesson real quick here.
You see that LFG tool. Use it.
Here’s what you do
1) Create your own group
2) Label it one of the following things, Inexperienced / Fun / Teaching / Learning run
3) Set you own req for comp & let people know what if any voice tools your using.You are now the proud starter of a raid group.
Lets stop using this false equivocation that raids are inaccessible, when the cold reality is people whom claim this don’t want to put in the same effort those before them did in building raid groups & learning.
To be fair even if they did do this the group would most likely never fill. Few would join and eventually leave b/c they realize it won’t fill in any reasonable amount of time (talking hours of waiting in the slim chance of filling).
Serenity now~Insanity later
Lets stop using this false equivocation that raids are inaccessible, when the cold reality is people whom claim this don’t want to put in the same effort those before them did in building raid groups & learning.
Never mentioned they were inaccessible, I said accesing them is hard. If you point on one of the arguments, get them right please.
Also, if you’re in one of these “so called” learning groups? What do you get?
You see how the boss mechanic works. That’s good. But you’ll likely never be able to have a succesful finish of the boss. You’ll get no LI which is require for almost every serious raid group as evidence you’re experienced.
How do you propose that is done?
As someone wrote, the idea of introducing tiers is a good one. Higher tiers → higher rewards. A tier kind of solution would it atleast make possible to do the achievements and gather experience from tier to tier, like in fractals.
Another idea would be to make a kind of a tutorial as introduction.
Top tier content? Where?! Legendary stuff is pure fluff, not top tier content.
Legendary equipment is similar to ascended equipment stat wise. Earlier or later most people actively playing that game want to access legendary weapons (and armors in the future). A-Net also keeps promoting legendary equipment, making it even more attractive.
Anyways, if you define it as ‘fluff’ that’s fine, it doesn’t resemble how most players feel, tho.
As the topic title says, I think the accessibility to raids really is an issue.
That was pretty much my only goal yet, until the legendary armor was previewed.
It simply shouldn’t be that top tier content is limited to a small percentage of players.And that really is the case – I’m in a large guild and roughly 5-10% are successfully, experienced raiders.
Other people (and I think that’s reflecting in the rest of the gw2 community) simply don’t get into raids – cause of the reasons mentioned above.
You’d have to join a somewhat professional raid guild to be really succesful.
Now i’m gonna teach people who keep saying Raids are inaccessible a lesson real quick here.
You see that LFG tool. Use it.
Here’s what you do
1) Create your own group
2) Label it one of the following things, Inexperienced / Fun / Teaching / Learning run
3) Set you own req for comp & let people know what if any voice tools your using.You are now the proud starter of a raid group.
Lets stop using this false equivocation that raids are inaccessible, when the cold reality is people whom claim this don’t want to put in the same effort those before them did in building raid groups & learning.
To be fair even if they did do this the group would most likely never fill. Few would join and eventually leave b/c they realize it won’t fill in any reasonable amount of time (talking hours of waiting in the slim chance of filling).
Have you tried?
I admit I haven’t tried this with raids (simply because I haven’t gotten around to wanting to raid yet) but I see the same thing with dungeons and it does work.
I look at the LFG tool and I see nothing but “EXP 80 zerk” or whatever, basically groups looking for people who already know the dungeon to complete it as fast as possible. I talk about it in game or on the forum and get told that hardly anyone does dungeons any more and the ones who do only want experienced players for speed-clears.
Then I put up my own listing saying something like “My first time, everyone welcome” or “casual run, first timers welcome” and within about 10-15 minutes I’ve got a group.
Now I know to speed-clearers (who are expecting to complete the dungeon in 10 minutes that’s an absurd amount of time to wait for a group and proves it’s a complete waste of time. But for casual players who are expecting to struggle and therefore willing to spend longer playing the dungeon it’s nothing.
It’s been the same when I’ve looked for groups to do Living Story achievements (where there are frequently no groups at all advertised) or to complete the Mordremoth fight at the end of the HoT story.
I suspect there’s actually a lot of people out there who want these kinds of groups and are even looking for them on the LFG tool but very few of them (or should I say us?) are willing to actually put up the advert. Maybe because there’s an underlying expectation that you are then the ‘group leader’ and will be responsible for how the run goes? Maybe just because it’s calling attention to yourself by being the ‘odd one out’ in the list? I don’t know.
Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).
“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”
“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”
Top tier content? Where?! Legendary stuff is pure fluff, not top tier content.
Legendary equipment is similar to ascended equipment stat wise. Earlier or later most people actively playing that game want to access legendary weapons (and armors in the future). A-Net also keeps promoting legendary equipment, making it even more attractive.
Anyways, if you define it as ‘fluff’ that’s fine, it doesn’t resemble how most players feel, tho.
I think the point is that you don’t need legendaries to play any part of GW2. This isn’t like some MMOs where when something like a raid is introduced you need the exclusive equipment from it to play large parts of the game, either because it has better stats or because the game literally won’t let you into the area without it.
Legendaries have the same stats as ascended equipment, which is only slightly better than exotics. They are a bit more convenient because you can swap the stats but not actually more powerful. Which means you can play the entire game without them.
That doesn’t change or invalidate the fact that many players want them, but it puts them into the same category as things like gem store skins – cosmetic items (commonly referred to as ‘fluff’). You’re never going to be told “Sorry, you need to have black wings and the monk outfit to play this area” and likewise you’re never going to be told that you need a legendary weapon or armour to play part of the game.
You might want them, you might even feel like it’s wrong to play that area without them (like all the people who complained about doing Party Politics in their armour before things like the Noble Count and Wedding outfits were released), but at no point do you actually need them.
Danielle Aurorel, Dear Dragon We Got Your Cookies [Nom], Desolation (EU).
“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”
“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”
Lets stop using this false equivocation that raids are inaccessible, when the cold reality is people whom claim this don’t want to put in the same effort those before them did in building raid groups & learning.
Never mentioned they were inaccessible, I said accesing them is hard. If you point on one of the arguments, get them right please.
Also, if you’re in one of these “so called” learning groups? What do you get?
You see how the boss mechanic works. That’s good. But you’ll likely never be able to have a succesful finish of the boss. You’ll get no LI which is require for almost every serious raid group as evidence you’re experienced.
I was in one of the so calles learning Groups for Sabetha last Friday. 4 Of the Raiders did Sabethe for the first Time. We explained everything and were pretty relaxed about the Fight. Quite a lot of Mistakes were made but we saw that the 4 Guys learned quite fast and they went from missing every Bomb and panicking quite fast to finally killing the Boss with only a few Mistakes. ( And we did it with no Food and everyone was alive ).
So its not true that learning Groups never kill a Boss.
And if the first learning group isn’t killing it, here a small Advice. Make Friends with these Raiders so you can get them for the next Groups. Or look out for a Raiding Guild. These Guild are even more likely to train People because they want enough People for their Roster to raid every Week.
Yes I have. I’ve tried helping friends that don’t have exp.
A lot of ppl benefited joining groups when the content was released when it was reasonable to do so to get exp. Now finding a no exp group is painful to say the least. So it’s kinda like trying to find a job where you can’t get them b/c the all require exp, but you can’t get exp without a job.
Serenity now~Insanity later
How do you propose that is done?
As someone wrote, the idea of introducing tiers is a good one. Higher tiers -> higher rewards. A tier kind of solution would it atleast make possible to do the achievements and gather experience from tier to tier, like in fractals.
Check my post on that thread on the tiers:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/page/2#post6372979
It has most of the issues and considerations on that subject in one place. Enjoy.
The raid content isn’t the hardest content in the game =/
It is just what requires the most specific equipment. Running full DPS =/= challenging. Mechanics = challenging. That being said, the mechanics, while difficult, are doable and not punishing enough like they should be.
“He shall make whole that which was torn asunder.
Restore that which was lost. And all shall be as one.”
Restore that which was lost. And all shall be as one.”
they could just create copys of the raids with much worse rewards yet also much easier. so people can practice the mechanics.
This already exists and it’s called raids.
Just enter with a training group and train. You’ll have much worse rewards, because you’re not gonna kill the boss (or kill him after many many tries), but also it will be much easier, because you don’t aim to kill him in the first place. You can just set your own goals like reaching 66% HP, doing better than on your previous run,… You can literally do ANYTHING you want, practice mechanis, have fun, chill, play any build you like, but instead you choose to complain on forums and request something completely useless from developers so that other people get less content.
Let’s face it…. everyone who complains does so because of REWARDS. If you didn’t want rewards and just wanted to experience the content, you’d already have started an “everyone welcome” lfg in raids and played them.
People got used to getting rewards without effort (log-in rewards, lol). Raids are something different, if you want a reward you have to EARN it.
I hate these topics.
Zero constructive criticism.
Zero desire to join training runs.
Zero desire to start training runs.
Zero desire to find a guild to help.
Zero desire to improve.
I hate these topics.
Zero constructive criticism.
Zero desire to join training runs.
Zero desire to start training runs.
Zero desire to find a guild to help.
Zero desire to improve.
ikr
“There is no teaching group on lfg so there is no way for me to learn”
Open up your own groups, search out a guild willing to help (there are plenty) etc.
Everything has been said a plethora of times.
Got a friend who really plays on and off while not being good at all (I’d argue he’s a bit below average), he got back, played a bit, got into a guild where they set up a raiding run. He asked me to join, so I did. Turned out six of them have never done VG before and the other three who were helping killing him at least a few times, had between 30-50 LIs. So basically I was the only one who was actually experienced in that group, but I didn’t even have to tell them much at all, they wanted to kill it and so they did, with a non-optimal comp and over half the squad having no raid experience whatsoever. None of them were great players either. Two hours later, VG was dead. Ended up killing Gors too after a hour of attempts.
Raids are very much accessible, you’re just looking in the wrong places.
Create your own LFG then saying inexperienced players are welcome. Problem solved.
It’s the mechanics of the raids. You need to have a certain character setup, read: builds, in order to do it within the alloted time.
The mechanics of raids force players to play certain builds and group setups (having 2 chrono/druids/….etc, so that some classes are left out. If you don’t have dedicated healers, or if you do not have condi damagers, or anything else needed for that matter, you’ll fail.
There is no room whatsoever for any mistake(s) or any room for build diversity. That is the most annoying part. With the latest “balance” patch it’s even gotten worse, because most will demand a perfect setup because they don’t want to fail ANY run at all.
In other games it used to be that any failure, no matter how small would result in a total wipe. Anet has copied the view others had in their games albeit on a smaller scale.
That some content should be challenging i think everyone can agree on, but that certain content is placed behind specific builds and classes drives most players away from that content.
I’m just gonna leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r65kDCMrffk
There are at least 3 (probably more) different builds being used by the same class in this vid.
There is potential for build diversity, but people just don’t think for themselves and are generally unwilling to try different things. The problem is not really with Anet and more with some of the playerbase themselves
I really dislike those LI groups, if you don’t have enough of them then u can’t join 75% of the groups on the LFG, and since raid content is alrdy being catered to a small percentage of player’s to use the OP’s words, imagine how much smaller margin that is reduced to when majority of groups themselves are eager to reduce this number even further by essentially time-gating it as they do. If I see an exp wing clear then I would be more than willing to join, but I never do or they’re always asking for specific roles that I can’t play. If I’m being honest I’m probably earning like 3-5 boss kills a week and that’s hardly enough to make a dent in anything in the long run.. So tell me how I’m expected to get anywhere other than square one. It’s like a never-ending conundrum, a situation where the snake almost inevitably ends up biting its own tail bc even though I’m newer to raids than others and getting less than a handful of LI in a week, other pro players in pro guilds are earning 2-3x more LI per week than me which in turn causes the LI reqs as necessitated to increase at a drastically similar rate as well.
Long story short, at times it feels raid content is limited not only to the elite players when in actuality it’s being restricted to like the most elitist of the elite. Raids essentially are being time-gated, and now they are also class-gated because you have to cycle between 2-3 classes that are usually required like 99.99% of the time, i.e. chronotank(s), druid, ele. If you’re disinclined to or simply unable to wrap your head around either of those classes or the roles they’re expected to play, then gg nice try but your out of luck. Let’s sideline all other classes and builds indefinitely since we’re so focused on holy trinity atm. Tank, healer, dps and all others can just quit raids in general bc let’s face it ur not needed. No one needs support like rev anymore, esp when that support is nerfed to the ground and dps is sub-par compared to other classes with more dedicated roles. This is essentially what raids are being reduced to.. first encouraged by the devs and then supported so unquestioningly by the top 4% or so of the pve player base themselves.
Arun Kar
(edited by nagr.1593)
just made a post about this
I really dislike those LI groups, if you don’t have enough of them then u can’t join 75% of the groups on the LFG, and since raid content is alrdy being catered to a small percentage of player’s to use the OP’s words, imagine how much smaller margin that is reduced to when majority of groups themselves are eager to reduce this number even further by essentially time-gating it as they do. If I see an exp wing clear I would join, but never do. If I’m being honest I’m probably earning like 3-5 boss kills a week and that’s hardly enough to make a dent in anything in the long run.. So tell me how I’m expected to get anywhere other square one. It’s like a never-ending conundrum, a situation where the snake almost inevitably ends up biting its own tail bc even though I’m newer to raids than others and getting less than a handful of LI in a week, other pro players in pro guilds are earning 2-3x more LI per week than me which in turn causes the LI reqs as necessitated to increase at a drastically increased rate as well.
Long story short, at times it feels raid content is limited not only to the elite players in actuality it’s being restricted to like the most elitist of the elite. Raids essentially are being time-gated, and now they are also class-gated because you have to cycle between 2-3 classes that are usually required like 99.99% of the time, i.e. chronotank(s), druid, ele. If you’re disinclined to or simply unable to wrap your head around either of those classes or the roles they’re expected to play, then gg nice try but your out of luck. Let’s sideline all other classes and builds indefinitely since we’re so focused on holy trinity atm. Tank, healer, dps and all others can just quit raids in general bc let’s face it ur not needed. No one needs support like rev anymore, esp when that support is nerfed to the ground and dps is sub-par compared to other classes with more dedicated roles. This is essentially what raids are being reduced to.. first encouraged by the devs and then supported so unquestioningly by the top 4% or so of the pve player base themselves.
Literally the third response in this thread addresses every issue you have.
Now i’m gonna teach people who keep saying Raids are inaccessible a lesson real quick here.
You see that LFG tool. Use it.
Here’s what you do
1) Create your own group
2) Label it one of the following things, Inexperienced / Fun / Teaching / Learning run
3) Set you own req for comp & let people know what if any voice tools your using.You are now the proud starter of a raid group.
Lets stop using this false equivocation that raids are inaccessible, when the cold reality is people whom claim this don’t want to put in the same effort those before them did in building raid groups & learning.
Now i’m gonna teach people who keep saying Raids are inaccessible a lesson real quick here.
You see that LFG tool. Use it.
Here’s what you do
1) Create your own group
2) Label it one of the following things, Inexperienced / Fun / Teaching / Learning run
3) Set you own req for comp & let people know what if any voice tools your using.You are now the proud starter of a raid group.
If it were this simple, these topics would not exist. Most people lack the basic skills and attitude necessary to succeed this way. Simple human nature. Most of us are followers rather than leaders.
The main problems are:
(1) Synergy – It can be hard to get randoms to communicate and work together even in dungeons, this is amplified in raids.
(2) High turnover – Many people will lose heart and bugger off after a few wipes, and others still will leave while waiting for the remaining spot(s) to be filled
Lets stop using this false equivocation that raids are inaccessible, when the cold reality is people whom claim this don’t want to put in the same effort those before them did in building raid groups & learning.
But raids are less accessible than the rest of the game, and intentionally so. The community doesn’t emphasise this part enough, but unfortunately raiding requires significantly more effort than the average player is willing to dedicate.
Fundamentally most of the design and mechanics are fairly simple, but it’s meant to be the kind of content where you get organised, ‘put work in’ and try over and over and over again until you get it right (with the intention of getting better so that there’s less of the ‘over and over again’ bit). If that doesn’t sound appealing then raids probably just aren’t meant for you. It sucks, but I’d not hold my breath for any changes.
(edited by Jahroots.6791)
In my experience there are three types of pug groups. In order to get into raids you will have to work your way through all three and need to set your expectations accordingly.
1. Training – These groups are where everybody starts out. All those people posting for LI in the lfg started out here. These groups are designed for learning and practicing mechanics. You very likely will spend many hours here without getting a kill. Once you can deal with all mechanics for a boss, then you can move on to the next type of group for that boss.
2. Experienced – This category includes all groups that are not listed as training, but also do not have an LI requirement. There is a huge variety in these groups, so be prepared to leave if the group was wanting a higher skill level. These groups are going for a kill and expect people to be able to deal with all mechanics appropriately. If you don’t have a kill on a boss yet, it is a good idea to be up front about it. Say, “I don’t have a kill yet, but I’ve gotten the boss to X% health and have done a bunch of training raids.” These groups are also a good place to get an introduction to later bosses. If you kill Sloth smoothly and move on to trio and matty, say something like, “I haven’t fought Matthias before. Are you ok with that? I’ve watched a few videos but that’s it.” Be open to them saying no.
3. LI/Killproof – These groups are like the previous, but they want to be extra sure it goes smoothly. Don’t fake it, they will probably be able to tell. Don’t join these groups unless you’ve killed that boss multiple times and are very comfortable with the mechanics.
Lastly, and most importantly, go into all of these raids with a friendly, positive attitude. If people enjoy raiding with you then they will add you to their friends list and invite you to other raids they are organizing. That is how you become part of a static group that can get kills consistently. If people don’t like your personality then they’ll add you to their list of people they don’t want to raid with, and you’ll have made getting into raiding a lot harder for yourself.
GLHF
Fluffy Fuz
The Edge of Oblivion [EDGE]
The Edge of Oblivion [EDGE]
Those not in the groundbreaking wave when new harder content debuts could do the same as the players in the groundbreaking wave — learn what works and what doesn’t via trial and wipe. However, dealing with the wipes requires a commitment to success that is more commonly found in the initial adopters. This is partly because once success at the content starts happening regularly, players — even those who haven’t done the content — expect to succeed.
The result of that expectation is lack of patience. Such groups are more likely to give up. This generally means that the longer the content is around, the harder it will be for late adopters to find a whole group of inexperienced players to learn the content with.
That said, the fact that there are teaching raids at all speaks well of GW2 raid accessibility. I’ve played quite a few other MMO’s. I can’t definitively say there were no pug teaching groups in their raids. I can say that. if there were, I never saw them.
I normaly ONLY fractal, like OONNLLYY fractal. Ask anyone who knows me that’s the only content I do. I’ve put up a looking for VG kill before and it does work. I like to think I was honest with my request, saying that I know power engi well and was willing to show a rotation if needed.
I did end up getting a few whispers from different people telling me they are part of a raid guild and they do training on Sundays and if I would like to join. To be fair, the first week I did this, friends picked me up and carried me through VG and the next boss. I did ask again the following week and got to add a drum roll cause I had a grand totall of 2 Li things!! \o/
Oh! A training raid picked me up that week and I stayed with them for awhile but had to leave due to work the next day.
Create your own LFG then saying inexperienced players are welcome. Problem solved.
the problem is people arent as dedicated as i am lol. most people quit after 2 or 3 attempts. even when your getting the boss to less than 25% hp. people just quit. and once 1 person quits 5 people go. then its back to square one. teaching people the fight again and again and again.
im bad at sarcasm
If Arenanet nerfs all of the best builds, then it will not matter what you show up with.
Or, raids will lose their attractiveness and have their rewards buffed.
Or, raids will stop being supported.
As the topic title says, I think the accessibility to raids really is an issue.
You probably know it yourself if you’ve ever checked the lfg-tool for raids:
LFP experienced [insert class here] with X LI and TS³Nearly any request looks similar to this, implying inexperienced raid players likely have no chance to join.
Also, these without wanting to use TS (I’m personally not too keen talking with foreign people about a certain game content) are somewhat excluded.
I myself did VG when the raids where somewhat new, it took me really long (several days) to find a group picking me up without “exp and li”, and even afterwards several of the groups I found didn’t succeed, because people were too inexperienced – a doom loop.
Sure, that’s not bad for gaining experience; but still – you gotta lie when you’re entering a group that requires more experience (and even they usually require a gear check of your LI).
Anyways, after what seemed like ages with different (inexperienced) groups and tries we managed to get the VG down.
That was pretty much my only goal yet, until the legendary armor was previewed.
It simply shouldn’t be that top tier content is limited to a small percentage of players.And that really is the case – I’m in a large guild and roughly 5-10% are successfully, experienced raiders.
Other people (and I think that’s reflecting in the rest of the gw2 community) simply don’t get into raids – cause of the reasons mentioned above.
You’d have to join a somewhat professional raid guild to be really succesful.
Sure – some of the really ambitioned players will likely pop up now and prove me wrong, telling me their story of becoming a good raid player on their own, but that’s a minority.
Don’t misunderstand me; I’m neither blaming the community (cause raids are challening) nor do I criticize the severity – All I would like is to make the start, the access easier for players new to raids – even without guild.
To allow a larger group access to a crucial (and now with the legendary armor even more) part of the game.
And here’s why you’re wrong.
The content is not limited – you can access it every time you want.
The ITEMS from raids are locked behind succeeding at raids – but even that isn’t truly a “limit” since you can easily buy a spot on teams that do clears for gold.
You can do literally anything else in the game, ( yes, including the TP) and get raid rewards by buying clears.
Is it the most cost-effective way? No it isn’t – but raid costs have gone down since a lot of players are now familiar with them.
This means there is no hard wall stopping you from getting your Legendary Armor. There’s a SOFT wall that is slowing you down – and that’s fine.
You should not get the armor at the same time or with the same expenses as the people that actually have the skill and dedication to raid.
Also – since when did you expect to be able to do something hard without trying to improve and finding people that are also good?
Most experienced raiders are in at least ONE raiding guild. Most raiding guilds offer not only guides but teaching runs and are willing to train a decent and willing player as part of a static group.
Yes – people of LFG won’t take you. But join a strong guild, ask for help and most likely you’ll get it.
My guild does training runs and teaches people. Others do as well.
To allow a larger group easier access to raid rewards would be foolhardy.
You already have access to them. You can go in – you can buy your ticket on a good team that can clear without you having to participate and there you go – raid rewards.
You want it both CHEAP and EASY – and that’s just not how it should be.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
The accessibility to raids I believe, is worse for people that are “kinda there” than for absolute newbies that haven’t done any boss before. Because if you have a couple LI’s from downing a few encounters, but still don’t know the harder ones (e.g Matt, Xera) and join a training run, you know you’re jumping onto a sinking ship: neither will you be able to carry the newbies because you need more training, nor will you have as much patience to have the encounter explained over and over and over and see people not listening over and over and over, and instead of actually training your role, you’ll just watch people wiping repeatedly over mechanics you already went through.
But you can’t join groups that are too exp either: most will politely tell you that you need more training if you try explaining you’re new but already familiar with many of the mechanics, or simply flat out ask for 80+ LI’s and leave you out for good. So basically (at least concerning lfg) there’s a vaccuum there; Xera training runs, for example, I think are completely absent if you’re not on a guild that runs you through it.
I suppose the solution would be for these people that already started on their raiding but are not quite there yet (e.g you wouldn’t join a VG training run to have it explained to you but you can’t join the LFM wing 1 50+ LI ones) to make their own groups like “LFM practice [Boss] (know the fight!)” or something like this. I do it myself sometimes but I feel like there should be much more of those around, because I think these people are the ones that actually want more access to raid (unlike a lot of the newbies that can’t/won’t listen and do not really learn the mechanics during a training run).
The accessibility to raids I believe, is worse for people that are “kinda there” than for absolute newbies that haven’t done any boss before. Because if you have a couple LI’s from downing a few encounters, but still don’t know the harder ones (e.g Matt, Xera) and join a training run, you know you’re jumping onto a sinking ship: neither will you be able to carry the newbies because you need more training, nor will you have as much patience to have the encounter explained over and over and over and see people not listening over and over and over, and instead of actually training your role, you’ll just watch people wiping repeatedly over mechanics you already went through.
But you can’t join groups that are too exp either: most will politely tell you that you need more training if you try explaining you’re new but already familiar with many of the mechanics, or simply flat out ask for 80+ LI’s and leave you out for good. So basically (at least concerning lfg) there’s a vaccuum there; Xera training runs, for example, I think are completely absent if you’re not on a guild that runs you through it.
I suppose the solution would be for these people that already started on their raiding but are not quite there yet (e.g you wouldn’t join a VG training run to have it explained to you but you can’t join the LFM wing 1 50+ LI ones) to make their own groups like “LFM practice [Boss] (know the fight!)” or something like this. I do it myself sometimes but I feel like there should be much more of those around, because I think these people are the ones that actually want more access to raid (unlike a lot of the newbies that can’t/won’t listen and do not really learn the mechanics during a training run).
What speaks against your “theory” is, that if you already into raiding and you are able to get some bosses down you know what’s going on in raids and your LIs also increase for a good amount per week. Without difficulty you can play the easier roles like ps warrior, rev and necro (pre-patch, dunno about now, we will see) at Sabetha and Xera. It’s also no problem to get into teams just be brave and don’t go like a bull at a gate. Of course, be honest but if you have been in 1-3 training runs before and you are experienced with other bosses you will be able to be a solid part in the team without struggling. You should not always yell loudly: “Here I am, I am new.”, because all distrust will fall onto you if there is a wipe even though you were not the one failing.
At last, tbh Xera isn’t as hard as Matthias, also Sabetha is easier if you are not one of the cannon jumpers.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
They really just need to bite the bullet and add easy mode raids, so that players can get experience without being part of “fail groups” for hours on end. Some will say that failing repeatedly will teach you how to play, and maybe that’s true for them, but not for everyone.
I play another game with a raid-like mechanic, it’s solo, but has similar challenge to encounters, so in terms of “you do your role right” it’s about as challenging as the existing raids. For the longest time, I got nowhere with it, even though on paper I had balanced characters that should be capable of completing it. I’d get to around stage 2/3 and then die, if that. But then they released a very OP character, one that made it fairly easy to beat most of the bosses. And so I did.
But the thing is that you could beat the boss up to five times per day for additional rewards, but could only use each character in one successful attempt, so ideally I’d need to figure out how to beat the bosses using five other characters. The thing is, by being able to routinely beat the bosses on the OP character, I actually LEARNED. I got the bosses’ patterns down better, picked up techniques and timing, and this allowed me to go back in and beat the boss using characters that I’d tried and failed with many times before.
Multiple failures taught me nothing. Multiple successes taught me everything.
So long as the system is designed to lead to failure repeatedly until you get it right, I will never improve. As soon as the system is designed to allow success fairly easily, but give you the option to continue to refine beyond that, I will learn, and improve, and eventually be as good at it as people who regularly clear it today.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
You can do literally anything else in the game, ( yes, including the TP) and get raid rewards by buying clears.
Is it the most cost-effective way? No it isn’t – but raid costs have gone down since a lot of players are now familiar with them.
Buying raid runs should never be considered a valid part of the game. I know that they don’t currently ban people for selling runs, but by all rights they should. Players should not be benefiting at other players’ expense like that, it’s toxic to every element of the game. If you get good at raids, the reward for that should be the stuff that drops from the raid, not a magic key to exploit other players who are not as good at it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
To all of those saying make your own new players group: what if a player already killed bosses couple times and actually have experience and gear, just don’t have 80+ LI. The problem is most LFG want flippin 80+ LI (if not 150, yes i saw those) if you want to join. Yesterday i saw VG group requiring 30 LI to join – VG is first boss in raids, easiest thing ever (although escort is probably easier) and 30 LI for it? Are you nuts?
LI is such useless measure too. I have killed couple bosses with 1-2 players down half of the fight – those people got literary carried and got LI for being afk.
Also jokes on you elitists – chat codes still work.
This is same crappy 10k+ AP requirements in dungeons all over again – i have had better runs with noobs even that actually listen than with elitists. We had some ele on Gorse with 50 LI that got instantly down 24/7 – so much for 50 LI.
Also, i would ban players for selling raid runs, dungeon runs and carry to legend. Will never understand why Anet would like to promote such behavior that causes nothing but toxicity. Half of LFG yesterday was flooded with sells – can’t see actual raid messages among all that junk.
(edited by Shadowstep.6049)
To all of those saying make your own new players group: what if a player already killed bosses couple times and actually have experience and gear, just don’t have 80+ LI. The problem is most LFG want flippin 80+ LI (if not 150, yes i saw those) if you want to join. Yesterday i saw VG group requiring 30 LI to join – VG is first boss in raids, easiest thing ever (although escort is probably easier) and 30 LI for it? Are you nuts?
LI is such useless measure too. I have killed couple bosses with 1-2 players down half of the fight – those people got literary carried and got LI for being afk.
This is same crappy 10k+ AP requirements in dungeons all over again – i have had better runs with noobs even that actually listen than with elitists. Also, i would ban players for selling raid runs, dungeon runs and carry to legend. Will never understand why Anet would like to promote such behavior that causes nothing but toxicity.
It’s not like Anet can do anything about it though, just like they never did anything (because they couldn’t) with the AP requirements for dungeons.
To all of those saying make your own new players group: what if a player already killed bosses couple times and actually have experience and gear, just don’t have 80+ LI. The problem is most LFG want flippin 80+ LI (if not 150, yes i saw those) if you want to join. Yesterday i saw VG group requiring 30 LI to join – VG is first boss in raids, easiest thing ever (although escort is probably easier) and 30 LI for it? Are you nuts?
LI is such useless measure too. I have killed couple bosses with 1-2 players down half of the fight – those people got literary carried and got LI for being afk.
This is same crappy 10k+ AP requirements in dungeons all over again – i have had better runs with noobs even that actually listen than with elitists. Also, i would ban players for selling raid runs, dungeon runs and carry to legend. Will never understand why Anet would like to promote such behavior that causes nothing but toxicity.
It’s not like Anet can do anything about it though, just like they never did anything (because they couldn’t) with the AP requirements for dungeons.
It is not issue in fractals – because there are levels and AR requirements. They should have done something similar with raids.
To all of those saying make your own new players group: what if a player already killed bosses couple times and actually have experience and gear, just don’t have 80+ LI. The problem is most LFG want flippin 80+ LI (if not 150, yes i saw those) if you want to join. Yesterday i saw VG group requiring 30 LI to join – VG is first boss in raids, easiest thing ever (although escort is probably easier) and 30 LI for it? Are you nuts?
LI is such useless measure too. I have killed couple bosses with 1-2 players down half of the fight – those people got literary carried and got LI for being afk.
This is same crappy 10k+ AP requirements in dungeons all over again – i have had better runs with noobs even that actually listen than with elitists. Also, i would ban players for selling raid runs, dungeon runs and carry to legend. Will never understand why Anet would like to promote such behavior that causes nothing but toxicity.
It’s not like Anet can do anything about it though, just like they never did anything (because they couldn’t) with the AP requirements for dungeons.
It is not issue in fractals – because there are levels and AR requirements. They should have done something similar with raids.
How do levels and AR requirements help with finding 10k+ AP required groups? And who is stopping the community from adding 150 Li requirements for any easy tier of raids?
Anet could fix the LI requirement thing. Just put in a / command that reports whatever amount of LI you want. If the group requires at least 150li to raid with them, all you’d need to do is type “/licheck 167” and it would pop up “167 Legendary Insights” exactly as if you’d pinged your own. Players can already do this in game if they understand how the chat codes work, but this would democratize the process and make it something any player could do casually enough.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
High LI requirements only are a deterrence for inexperienced, new or most often crappy players. It’s not there to weight a boss’ difficulty or a groups talent.
Overall it is working fine with some exceptions here and there. The thing why it is working and not everybody is faking codes is that a huge majority of the playerbase is honest about themselves. So, if they see such a requirement and don’t meet them they don’t even consider to join. A further larger group also don’t want to lie about in the chat and betray others so they don’t join neither. The whole argument of “You know they can be faked.” is irrelevant because it’s a tiny minority doing it. And even if that minority would grow unless they aren’t terrible they will bring bosses down with your group so their LI is growing plus nobody would have realized the issue and feel comfortable due to killing the boss.
While I agree it’s not perfect and you rather set a requirement like for example “The Eternal” for Wing 1, “Tonic” buff for Wing 2 and “Minis” for Wing 3 because these cannot be faked! Yes, somebody could have bought wing kills to get some of these but it’s highly unlikely.
In the end, the case is simple: You exclude the probability of getting players without having the knowledge and the skill to beat bosses with certainty and mostly speed. The result is enough to get enough decent players and identify the bad apples that are trying to get into your group for a carry and kick them right into the b… out of the group!
Everything is absolutely ok about it because it’s nothing less than to exclude people from playing a specific sports game with them on the court. It’s neither elitist nor toxic.
Special edit to answer this one:
To all of those saying make your own new players group: what if a player already killed bosses couple times and actually have experience and gear, just don’t have 80+ LI. The problem is most LFG want flippin 80+ LI (if not 150, yes i saw those) if you want to join. Yesterday i saw VG group requiring 30 LI to join – VG is first boss in raids, easiest thing ever (although escort is probably easier) and 30 LI for it? Are you nuts?
30 LIs for VG are ok. I have seen players bringing kp and 80 LIs dying to VG over and over again. That can happen due to having a really terrible day, being unmotivated or other reasons. As I mention above if you don’t set a requirement you can be lucky or not, you don’t know it. With a requirement you lower the chance of a failure drastically while it’s still possible to fail and it still happens; happened to me in a kp + 100 LI group after VG at Gorse. But nevertheless I, for myself, rather increase the chance to win in advance than playing lotto.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
The joke is LI requirement is a lotto……because they don’t mean crap.
The joke is LI requirement is a lotto……because they don’t mean crap.
I disagree. They mean a lot if raid leaders are using their brains.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
:o my hub and me raids with 400ping. Our play time is awkward. We sleep when most players are doing their raids. Don’t get to play at the normal hours . We still manage to get in..although it was very hard..but we got ourselves in. Currently at 220+li. We been through many many many many wipes and tears. We pugs. And the hard way we do it bcos we want to do it. I do not think there’s any other easier way not unless anet makes raids with diff mode.
Champion Magus & Phantom, Demon’s Demise, The Archdesigner.
Death is Energy [DIE] – Gandara EU
Australia
Death is Energy [DIE] – Gandara EU
Australia
While I agree it’s not perfect and you rather set a requirement like for example “The Eternal” for Wing 1, “Tonic” buff for Wing 2 and “Minis” for Wing 3 because these cannot be faked! Yes, somebody could have bought wing kills to get some of these but it’s highly unlikely.
In the end, the case is simple: You exclude the probability of getting players without having the knowledge and the skill to beat bosses with certainty and mostly speed. The result is enough to get enough decent players and identify the bad apples that are trying to get into your group for a carry and kick them right into the b… out of the group!
Everything is absolutely ok about it because it’s nothing less than to exclude people from playing a specific sports game with them on the court. It’s neither elitist nor toxic.
See, the fact that players like this exist, and believe that they are justified in their behavior, is why ANet needs to create easier versions of the content, where wipes are less likely to occur, and therefore there would be less justification to exclude anyone. Trying to keep out noobs because they might cause the group to wipe a dozen times or more before they can complete the boss is somewhat reasonable, but trying to keep out noobs because it might mean the fight takes 12 minutes to complete instead of 10 would just be pointlessly rude.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Trying to keep out noobs because they might cause the group to wipe a dozen times or more before they can complete the boss is somewhat reasonable…
And that’s why average people in the lfg are setting requirements.
…but trying to keep out noobs because it might mean the fight takes 12 minutes to complete instead of 10 would just be pointlessly rude.
That’s not a reason why average people in the lfg are setting requirements. Definitely not!
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
See, the fact that players like this exist, and believe that they are justified in their behavior, is why ANet needs to create easier versions of the content, where wipes are less likely to occur, and therefore there would be less justification to exclude anyone. Trying to keep out noobs because they might cause the group to wipe a dozen times or more before they can complete the boss is somewhat reasonable, but trying to keep out noobs because it might mean the fight takes 12 minutes to complete instead of 10 would just be pointlessly rude.
This could not be more wrong, unfortunately. Most ppl who are of the mindset that you would label as ‘rude’, especially in pugs, would most likely not care not a single shred for u except that u are able to handle everything as asked without sabotaging or interfering with the group’s effort. According to a most highly regarded player whom I fully trust, a most intriguing example brought forth by the astute Absurdo observes that group time is invaluable as it differs greatly from actual time (as the world perceives it), and it increases linearly with the number of people involved in or directly affected by such circumstances as a result.
Therefore, if we accept this theorem and apply it to the situation mentioned, it would not have been 2mins lost as you or I would observe, but in fact 20min wasted given that we are dealing with raid content. Again, it’s important to keep this mind as perception of time passing becomes noticeably skewed when dealing with raid groups, regardless of the difficulty of the fight or the mechanics involved but bearing in mind that it’s simply even more rude to waste 9 people’s time, therefore it’s again the question of the lesser evils that arises when dealing with a similar situation as u introduced.
Arun Kar
(edited by nagr.1593)
See, the fact that players like this exist, and believe that they are justified in their behavior, is why ANet needs to create easier versions of the content, where wipes are less likely to occur, and therefore there would be less justification to exclude anyone. Trying to keep out noobs because they might cause the group to wipe a dozen times or more before they can complete the boss is somewhat reasonable, but trying to keep out noobs because it might mean the fight takes 12 minutes to complete instead of 10 would just be pointlessly rude.
This could not be more wrong, unfortunately. Most ppl who are of the mindset that you would label as ‘rude’, especially in pugs, would most likely not care not a single shred for u except that u are able to handle everything as asked without sabotaging or interfering with the group’s effort. According to a most highly regarded player whom I fully trust, a most intriguing example brought forth by the astute Absurdo observes that group time is invaluable as it differs greatly from actual time (as the world perceives it), and it increases linearly with the number of people involved in or directly affected by such circumstances as a result.
Therefore, if we accept this theorem and apply it to the situation mentioned, it would not have been 2mins lost as you or I would observe, but in fact 20min wasted given that we are dealing with raid content. Again, it’s important to keep this mind as perception of time passing becomes noticeably skewed when dealing with raid groups, regardless of the difficulty of the fight or the mechanics involved but bearing in mind that it’s simply even more rude to waste 9 people’s time, therefore it’s again the question of the lesser evils that arises when dealing with a similar situation as u introduced.
Yep, when I lead a raid, I think it’s incredibly rude to make 9 other people wait for you. Whether that’s finishing up a world boss, a pvp match, or learning the mechanics, I’ll boot you if I think I can find someone quickly.
And, @Ohoni, most raiders wouldn’t mind a 10 min versus a 12 min fight if it resulted in a kill.
That’s not a reason why average people in the lfg are setting requirements. Definitely not!
My point is that an easy mode would resolve that. I can understand why people wouldn’t want to wipe, which is the potential outcome today in having an underpowered group. But if there were an easy mode, and if even half the group is reasonably skilled then success would be guaranteed and the “worst case scenario” is that it takes a little longer, like how most dungeon paths work, then exclusionism would be less justifiable.
Yep, when I lead a raid, I think it’s incredibly rude to make 9 other people wait for you. Whether that’s finishing up a world boss, a pvp match, or learning the mechanics, I’ll boot you if I think I can find someone quickly.
Deliberately making people wait for you is certainly rude. Doing your very best to complete the content in a timely manner, but having the nature of the content result in you slowing the group down is not being rude, it’s just the way the game is designed. Players should not be ostracized for not being as good as others, that is the very definition of toxic culture.
And, @Ohoni, most raiders wouldn’t mind a 10 min versus a 12 min fight if it resulted in a kill.
Which is the point I was clearly making in the original context of the quote.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
My point is that an easy mode would resolve that.
Just stopping in, saying Hi, good to see you still fighting the good fight, Good Luck and Have Fun with that.
Bye!
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty