Guild Wars 2

Squee Squashington.5189:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The entire point of raids is that they are intended to be hardcore content. A big reason why the raid team is so efficiency and producing them with high quality is that they only have to design for those interested in that challenge.

If I’m not ready for that, there’s the entire rest of the game for me to play.

So no, raids don’t need difficulty modes; there are players who want them, which is not the same thing.

If we took that logic and said “PoF is going to be a hardcore expansion, intended for the best of the best. If the casuals don’t like it don’t worry there’s tons of other content already in game for them to play!”

Now your expansion fails, people start leaving save the ~5% of “the elite”, profits go down and there’s less resources for you to support new content.

Alarmist? Maybe, but that’s where that train of thought leads. Should someone buy PoF knowing that the raids will be catered to only hardcore players, or will they go to a different MMO where they might be able to raid without as much frustration?

Regardless of whatever opinion you might have, it’s good design and good business to make your content appealing to all members of your player base.

Lol good luck with that. Sorry to be soo crude. But if you can’t make it in GW2’s raids, as a person who’ve played other MMOs. You would not stand one bit of chance elsewhere in another MMO’s raid.

ESO… Good luck if you think GW2’s raids toxic. Players will reject and ridicule you if you don’t have certain titles and gear set up.

Tera… Rip no chance in hell here for you. If you don’t grind for the gear the game will not even let you enter.

Rift.. Be prepared to get wrecked in rejected hard.

BnS… People will not even think of you unless you set up with class mastery and gear.

I could go on. GW2 in my experience has the most casual and accepting Raiding community in all of the MMORPGs I have played which is a extensive list. If you can’t make it here when it’s the easiest, may I wish you the best of luck elsewhere that nowhere near as casual as GW2. Make sure to bring lube, you’ll need it if GW2’s raids/community is too hard and or toxic for your liking.

Squee Squashington.5189:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The entire point of raids is that they are intended to be hardcore content. A big reason why the raid team is so efficiency and producing them with high quality is that they only have to design for those interested in that challenge.

If I’m not ready for that, there’s the entire rest of the game for me to play.

So no, raids don’t need difficulty modes; there are players who want them, which is not the same thing.

If we took that logic and said “PoF is going to be a hardcore expansion, intended for the best of the best. If the casuals don’t like it don’t worry there’s tons of other content already in game for them to play!”

Now your expansion fails, people start leaving save the ~5% of “the elite”, profits go down and there’s less resources for you to support new content.

Alarmist? Maybe, but that’s where that train of thought leads. Should someone buy PoF knowing that the raids will be catered to only hardcore players, or will they go to a different MMO where they might be able to raid without as much frustration?

Regardless of whatever opinion you might have, it’s good design and good business to make your content appealing to all members of your player base.

I think you’re missing his point. Raiding is a small part of the guild wars 2 game. Different aspects of the game appeal to different people. There’s pvp, wvw, open world PVE, jumping puzzles, map exploration, crafting, etc. etc.

No developer can make every aspect of the game appeal to every person.

I don’t understand this need or entitlement that people feel about raiding. There are tons of other areas of content to keep one occupied and satisfied. Gw2 is certainly not centered around raiding nor does one have to raid for anything important. It’s a challenging game mode designed for a segment of the population that wanted more challenging content. If it’s not your thing, then there are other game modes designed for you. What’s the problem?

Sadly there is nothing to be done officially. They cant go and slap all those elitists i nthe wrist and tell them to play nice. We reached a point where everything is so exclusive people ask for Legendary Insights, a simple item meant to create legendary armor and turn it into kill proof and raid experience. Things are only gonna go more downhill from here.

Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497:

Anet, I’m not sure if you have been paying attention to the LFG, but as it stands getting into a raid group is virtually impossible from the LFG panel for newer players, or players who had not done any of the raids from Day 1 of HoT. They are just stuck in a Catch 22 and SOLed.

I sincerely suggest coming up with a way to fix this before the new raid content is released. Mostly by offering a bonus incentive or buff for allowing new raiders into the group.

Not trying to insult anyone, just putting out the facts, they won’t fix it, they won’t change anything, if this means you will never raid, they don’t care.

If you don’t like that, then, maybe it’s time to go play some other game.

STIHL.2489:

Not trying to insult anyone, just putting out the facts, they won’t fix it, they won’t change anything, if this means you will never raid, they don’t care.

It’s not something that they can “fix”

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Not trying to insult anyone, just putting out the facts, they won’t fix it, they won’t change anything, if this means you will never raid, they don’t care.

It’s not something that they can “fix”

They could fix the problem by making raids easy enough to Random PUG, making difficulty scales like fractals have, making a story/easy mode, etc, etc. They have ways to solve the current issues surrounding raids.

But they don’t care.

There was never any need for Raids to ever be put into GW2, if people wanted challenging content/raids there is no shortage of other MMO’s out there, Anet never should have even tried to pander to that demographic, and stuck with their core philosophy, but they flipped their founding principals the bird, and.. if anyone does not like it.. too bad.

That’s the state of the game.

STIHL.2489:

They could fix the problem by making raids easy enough to Random PUG, making difficulty scales like fractals have, making a story/easy mode, etc, etc. They have ways to solve the current issues surrounding raids.

Let’s stay on the topic, and the topic is not easy mode Raids, that’s somewhere else around here. Now that’s out, nothing you mentioned will allow new players to find groups on the LFG to raid with. And to do the current Raids.
You don’t have to look far away if you want to find out why. Ask yourself, do all those difficulty scales of Fractals help anyone find a group for T4 or CM? No they do not.
So an easy mode/ story mode or multiple difficulty scales will do absolutely nothing to help with the subject of this thread. Therefore someone like the OP wouldn’t find a group anyway so it’s a moot point.

I know you, and many others, try to force the idea of difficulty tiers and story modes on every thread in existence, however, you must figure out the subject of the threads you are posting to and how they won’t fix the problem discussed in them.

As you (should) have learned in the threads on Shattered Observatory, difficulty scales don’t matter to the whiners. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have seen calls to nerf SO 100 NM. So there’s absolutely no need to replicate that in raids and dedicate development time to easymodes that won’t accomplish anything – except wasting time.

STIHL.2489:

They could fix the problem by making raids easy enough to Random PUG, making difficulty scales like fractals have, making a story/easy mode, etc, etc. They have ways to solve the current issues surrounding raids.

But they don’t care.

There was never any need for Raids to ever be put into GW2, if people wanted challenging content/raids there is no shortage of other MMO’s out there, Anet never should have even tried to pander to that demographic, and stuck with their core philosophy, but they flipped their founding principals the bird, and.. if anyone does not like it.. too bad.

That’s the state of the game.

How does having challenging content in their game even affect you if all you care about is whatever softball content you think their founding core principles were? You don’t HAVE to raid. There’s nothing in the game that requires it, and there’s not even gear upgrades that are obtainable from it.

Also, I don’t think their core philosophy was an easy, face-rolly type of game. I mean, one of the biggests things that they put in GW2, right from the start, right when you’re level 2, that separates it from other MMO’s like WoW, is the EVADE BUTTON. The evade button obviously caters to people who want reactionary gameplay, it favors skill over button mashing, and all of the raid mechanics you find too crazy and out of place revolve around this button… It’s something that’s so core to their game that it’s LITERALLY the only thing that there’s any sort of in-your-face training for. So to say that having encounters that require you to pay attention and dodge stuff goes against their core philosophy is more than a little bit silly.

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

They could fix the problem by making raids easy enough to Random PUG, making difficulty scales like fractals have, making a story/easy mode, etc, etc. They have ways to solve the current issues surrounding raids.

Nothing you mentioned will allow new players to find groups on the LFG to raid with. And to do the current Raids.

Sure it would, with more people doing raids coupled with less requirements to join their groups, more people will be able to join find and raid PUG LFM’s.

Its pretty simple to see how it would work.

You don’t have to look far away if you want to find out why. Ask yourself, do all those difficulty scales of Fractals help anyone find a group for T4 or CM? No they do not.

By the same token, it’s very easy to get a T2 fractal group going, just put up an LFM, and they fill (I joke you not) within seconds of posting. So more people can enjoy fractals, and those that want hard stuff can do that.

Difficulty Scales have made fractals easy and approachable by new players, and enjoyable by casuals that are more then happy to hover at T2 or T3, and just do that for daily and thus build a bulk population for those that want to do fractals, while allowing elitist their little corner playground of T4.

So the solutions are out there, and have already been successfully put into the game.

It’s just that Anet does not care, so, they won’t fix the problem, and anyone not ok with that, can opt to move on to some other game, because that is just the way things are here.

STIHL.2489:

Sure it would, with more people doing raids coupled with less requirements to join their groups, more people will be able to join find and raid PUG LFM’s.

That’s false. Requirements will always be the same and no it won’t lead to -more- people doing raids.

So the solutions are out there, and have already been successfully put into the game.

Only your “solutions” do not help with what the OP posted and no there is no successful implementation in the game, fractals clearly show that difficulty tiers do not help the least bit. Your “solution” is for those who lack the skill to do the Raids, that’s hardly what is being discussed here, this is about accessing the -current- Raids, not accessing another form (easier) of Raids. And as I said, your easy mode Raids thread is somewhere else.

Nice going in circles though. There is more than enough proof that the difficulty tiers do not help, a look at the fractal LFG is all the evidence you need.

to all “You don’t need to raid, you have enough other content”.
I have to go into a raid to unlock the Raid Mastery to unlock the XP after i completed everything in HoT to get Spirit Shards. On of the most stupid decision ever.
If you force players into a raid. make a LFR like WoW Arena.net.

STIHL.2489:

Sure it would, with more people doing raids coupled with less requirements to join their groups, more people will be able to join find and raid PUG LFM’s.

Its pretty simple to see how it would work.

That’s not how the GW2 community works though… No matter how easy Anet makes something, LFG will always have requirements. Like, look at how dungeons, the easiest/least-coordination-required group content out there, happens to have the most toxic LFG’s.

People will always be toxic/elitist/hilarious in LFG. And in my experience, bad players are actually the worst at this onceTHEY finally get to take the bullying reigns and feel like they don’t suck for once. Easier content would probably even lead to grosser LFG’s.

And honestly, a lot of the raids can’t be made any easier… Unless they just removed all the mechanics and basically made them all instanced Shadow Behemoths. Like, take a boss like Cairn, bad/inexperienced players have trouble dealing with Agony Clouds and his Big Swipe o Death. But if you took those out, or made them so they didn’t kill you, he’s what? Just a big rock in the middle of the room that everyone wails on for free loot? Might as well just make him a giant treasure chest that you can go in and open once a week.

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Sure it would, with more people doing raids coupled with less requirements to join their groups, more people will be able to join find and raid PUG LFM’s.

That’s false. Requirements will always be the same and no it won’t lead to -more- people doing raids.

eh? Of course the requirements to get into a group would change with varying degrees of difficulty, this has been proven with fractals time and time again, the requirements to get into T1 fractals are far less then what it takes to get into T4. This is a proven and self evident fact of the game.

So the solutions are out there, and have already been successfully put into the game.

Only your “solutions” do not help with what the OP posted and no there is no successful implementation in the game, fractals clearly show that difficulty tiers do not help the least bit.

[/quote]

Of course they do. Difficulty Tiers make it so that anyone can approach a Fractal, starting at the lowest level where they can learn how fractals work, get gear, and have other players explain the mechanics, and then, if they so choose, slowly working their way up, or not, they could stay at low level fractals, in either case, a lot more people are doing fractals with the difficulty levels then if it was T4 or nothing.

STIHL.2489:

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

They could fix the problem by making raids easy enough to Random PUG, making difficulty scales like fractals have, making a story/easy mode, etc, etc. They have ways to solve the current issues surrounding raids.

Nothing you mentioned will allow new players to find groups on the LFG to raid with. And to do the current Raids.

Sure it would, with more people doing raids coupled with less requirements to join their groups, more people will be able to join find and raid PUG LFM’s.

Its pretty simple to see how it would work.

You don’t have to look far away if you want to find out why. Ask yourself, do all those difficulty scales of Fractals help anyone find a group for T4 or CM? No they do not.

By the same token, it’s very easy to get a T2 fractal group going, just put up an LFM, and they fill (I joke you not) within seconds of posting. So more people can enjoy fractals, and those that want hard stuff can do that.

Difficulty Scales have made fractals easy and approachable by new players, and enjoyable by casuals that are more then happy to hover at T2 or T3, and just do that for daily and thus build a bulk population for those that want to do fractals, while allowing elitist their little corner playground of T4.

So the solutions are out there, and have already been successfully put into the game.

It’s just that Anet does not care, so, they won’t fix the problem, and anyone not ok with that, can opt to move on to some other game, because that is just the way things are here.

I completely disagree with you.I believe raids should be challenging, and people should put effort and learn, because that makes them worthwild.If you aren’t going to put efford don’t bother.Also:I wish you played everquest so you would get destroyed haha because everquest is raid based and good luck getting gear in a world that is static.

STIHL.2489:

Of course the requirements to get into a group would change with varying degrees of difficulty, this has been proven with fractals time and time again, the requirements to get into T1 fractals are far less then what it takes to get into T4. This is a proven and self evident fact of the game.

And you still aren’t reading and posting in the wrong thread apparently. It is proven and is a fact in the game that the multiple difficulties did not affect the requirements of T4 nor CM fractals. To play T4 you must be experienced in T4, to play CM you must be experienced in CM, unless it’s a training group. That’s a fact of life.

Difficulty Tiers make it so that anyone can approach a Fractal, starting at the lowest level where they can learn how fractals work, get gear, and have other players explain the mechanics, and then, if they so choose, slowly working their way up, or not, they could stay at low level fractals, in either case, a lot more people are doing fractals with the difficulty levels then if it was T4 or nothing.

No matter how many times you finish T1, the requirement to be experienced in CM won’t change and you won’t be accepted in CM runs, even if you run T1 a billion times. A multiple tiered difficulty won’t allow them to enter groups on the LFG for T4 and/or CM so difficulty tiers are practically useless as a means of allowing access to T4/CM on the LFG, which is kind of what was there in opening.

Asking for an extra reward when players take a newbie into Raids, so organized teams running the current Raids have some extra incentive to take such newbies with them. Again, nothing to do with tiers.

Try again

maddoctor.2738:

No matter how many times you finish T1, the requirement to be experienced in CM won’t change and you won’t be accepted in CM runs,

So kittening what? Players can still enjoy and run fractals, even if they never get better then T1. which was my point, if you have some other strawman you are fussing against, quote them and not me.

STIHL.2489:

So kittening what? Players can still enjoy and run fractals, even if they never get better then T1. which was my point, if you have some other strawman you are fussing against, quote them and not me.

Who cares? The question was how to allow new players to join LFG groups for the Raids, not for some other tier of Raids. Read the OP, the title of the thread and other posts in it before you post.

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

So kittening what? Players can still enjoy and run fractals, even if they never get better then T1. which was my point, if you have some other strawman you are fussing against, quote them and not me.

Who cares? The question was how to allow new players to join LFG groups for the Raids,

Yah exactly, and making raids exactly like fractals with tiered difficulty would make for more LFM for raids just like having tiered difficulties makes for more Fractal LFM. I didn’t see anyone talk about T4 except you, so, whoever you are having an issue with about that, is not me.

My point was super simple understand and validated by In-game activity.

I suppose, with Tiers, all the egotistical elitist could hem and haw about how great they are doing T4 raids, with all their DPS meters, and requirements, while the lowly peasants only did T1 Raids with their all welcome tags and saturated with clueless wonders.. just like fractals.

So.. again.. no idea who you are fussing against, but nothing you have said counters anything I have said, or even remotely address it.

This thread is still going? I was half expecting a bunch of kitten slinging, but this is surprising.

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

So kittening what? Players can still enjoy and run fractals, even if they never get better then T1. which was my point, if you have some other strawman you are fussing against, quote them and not me.

Who cares? The question was how to allow new players to join LFG groups for the Raids, not for some other tier of Raids. Read the OP, the title of the thread and other posts in it before you post.

This here… It’s not hard to get into Fractal Runs. There’s a ladder players need to climb, and there’s ALWAYS people at certain tiers. Granted you got people who will tilt at the slightest mistake, or at people who were caught off guard by a massive difficulty spike in one part of a fractal (kittening captain from Urban Battleground, and Mai Trinn from her boss fractal).

But Raids? Different monster. Everywhere you look you got “No Scrubs”, “Kill Proof required”, “150+ LI only”, “Gear Check”, “Selling Raid Boss kills 5g”. From my experience… these raid parties are aweful and just full of salt and kitten.

Though… I will say I take back what I said about it being impossible. It’s actually fairly possible if you do your own LFG and know what to say.

I just wrote “LFG No-exp, don’t care about gear, experience, or LI. Just have fun” in less then 6 minutes I had a full party with a mix of players who haven’t done this raid, had never raided before, and players who had with some of the ‘necessary’ professions needed. Didn’t have a proper tank, so I tanked with a full ascended marauder’s thief and mashed yams. Cleared multiple raid bosses, including Keep construct. Anytime we hit a bosses enrage timer, we didn’t give up. Some of them we were able to kill while enraged. It was fun. Almost got Gorseval multiple times. Enraged timer would catch us, and we’d get him down to .5-1% hp before the world eater kills us. We had the DPS to force him into the next phase before he’d have a chance to activate world eatter, but we were spending a lot of time trying to kill charged spirits. Check that… we actually did kill him. But by the skin of our teeth. I think he bugged out. He didn’t disappear after he killed us all, so the left over condi damage continued to proc and finished him off.

So… I guess it is a matter of newer players being bold enough to write their own LFG.

STIHL.2489:

I suppose, with Tiers, all the egotistical elitist could hem and haw about how great they are doing T4 raids, with all their DPS meters, and requirements, while the lowly peasants only did T1 Raids with their all welcome tags and saturated with clueless wonders.. just like fractals.

And as I explained a bazillion times already, it get tiring btw, that won’t help anyone get into the current Raid LFG which, since you missed for the billionth time, was the topic. And not tiers of Raids. Now, have fun trolling all the threads about Raids with your tiers of difficulty even if it’s completely irrelevant. The bold letters was a nice touch though.

Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497:

So… I guess it is a matter of newer players being bold enough to write their own LFG.

Glad you found your way

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

I suppose, with Tiers, all the egotistical elitist could hem and haw about how great they are doing T4 raids, with all their DPS meters, and requirements, while the lowly peasants only did T1 Raids with their all welcome tags and saturated with clueless wonders.. just like fractals.

And as I explained a bazillion times already, it get tiring btw, that won’t help anyone get into the current Raid LFG which, since you missed for the billionth time, was the topic. And not tiers of Raids. Now, have fun trolling all the threads about Raids with your tiers of difficulty even if it’s completely irrelevant. The bold letters was a nice touch though.

I thought the bold would help you understand, it didn’t. Also, you must have me confused with someone else, while it’s a well known fact that tiers would resolve the current problem with raids, I have not advocated them, and I still don’t.

As I said originally, Anet does not care, and won’t fix the problem, so either deal with raids as they are, or find something else to play.

STIHL.2489:

… while it’s a well known fact that tiers would resolve the current problem with raids …

How is that a fact? You’re ignoring facts. ANet has stated that legendary Armor is and will remain an exclusive reward for the only tier of raids currently in existence. Fractal weapon skins only drop in higher tier fractals. Anyone looking for L. Armor would not benefit from lower tier raids. For that to be false, ANet would not only have to change their mind about sticking to one tier of raids, they’d also have to change their approach to exclusive rewards in the only tiered content in the PvE game.

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

… while it’s a well known fact that tiers would resolve the current problem with raids …

How is that a fact? You’re ignoring facts. ANet has stated that legendary Armor is and will remain an exclusive reward for the only tier of raids currently in existence. Fractal weapon skins only drop in higher tier fractals. Anyone looking for L. Armor would not benefit from lower tier raids. For that to be false, ANet would not only have to change their mind about sticking to one tier of raids, they’d also have to change their approach to exclusive rewards in the only tiered content in the PvE game.

You worry about Anet sticking to their word, after they have openly given up on their founding design principles? Really? Did you think they would hold out just for you and yours? How Cute.

STIHL.2489:

it’s a well known fact that tiers would resolve the current problem with raids, I have not advocated them, and I still don’t.

They won’t. And it’s not a fact it’s just your opinion.

Vinceman.4572:

STIHL.2489:

it’s a well known fact that tiers would resolve the current problem with raids, I have not advocated them, and I still don’t.

They won’t. And it’s not a fact it’s just your opinion.

Worked in Fractals. What do you have to back up that it won’t?

STIHL.2489:

Also, you must have me confused with someone else, while it’s a well known fact that tiers would resolve the current problem with raids, I have not advocated them, and I still don’t.

No they won’t resolve the current problem with Raids, which is finding groups on the LFG for them as explained multiple times. Multiple tiers fail to solve that problem.

Stop saying that something is a fact when in reality it’s not.

STIHL.2489:

Worked in Fractals. What do you have to back up that it won’t?

Doesn’t work in Fractals at all. What do you have to back up that it does?
No matter how many tiers there are you won’t find it easier to join T4/CM groups