Any recent tests for celestial gear?
Its interesting how people on GW2 define what is “useless” and what is “good”. In Dark Souls, the best players are those that have low dps (fist only), rely on nothing except understanding game mechanics, and do not rely on stats (naked). High dps means you don’t not need to know how to reliably counter every boss mechanic 100% of the time, those players specialize in cheesing and bursting down encounters. Low dps, means the boss fight drags out for long enough that you will be forced to experience every attack multiple times and your forced to actually learn them.
Your analogy falls apart if you actually apply it properly. Building defensive stats in GW2 is like building full heavy armor with maximum hp and stamina and bunkering behind a shield to smack the boss every now and then without even needing to move your feet in dark souls. Unless there’s a hard enrage timer (some raid bosses), building defensive trivializes the difficulty of the fight at the cost of making it take forever.
Except that I am talking about celestial, in my opinion one of the most powerful stat combinations. Capable of fighting real players and reliably conquering all PvE content (solo and group). What do one trick pony builds do? They specialize in cheesing bosses by bursting them down before they can do anything. “Good” players in GW2, are master of cheese and strive to speed kill everything. Good players in Dark Souls, focus on learning and understanding boss mechanics.
Damage, health, and armor are all crutches. And the biggest crutch of them all is damage. It is ironic, that people have disdain for health and armor when damage carries the hardest.
Its interesting how people on GW2 define what is “useless” and what is “good”. In Dark Souls, the best players are those that have low dps (fist only), rely on nothing except understanding game mechanics, and do not rely on stats (naked). High dps means you don’t not need to know how to reliably counter every boss mechanic 100% of the time, those players specialize in cheesing and bursting down encounters. Low dps, means the boss fight drags out for long enough that you will be forced to experience every attack multiple times and your forced to actually learn them.
Your analogy falls apart if you actually apply it properly. Building defensive stats in GW2 is like building full heavy armor with maximum hp and stamina and bunkering behind a shield to smack the boss every now and then without even needing to move your feet in dark souls. Unless there’s a hard enrage timer (some raid bosses), building defensive trivializes the difficulty of the fight at the cost of making it take forever.
I don’t think you can get away without moving in GW2 even with heavy armour. Dragging out the fight also comes with a risk of making more mistakes or not doing enough damage at all to even survive the encounter. Ofcourse most content is designed with DPS in mind. So you’re probably right.
But a different scenario of a long dragged out fight might make it easier looking at a shorter time span, if you have so little damage that you can’t keep your health up.
While most people would find a long dragged out fight boring, a encounter designed around it would typically do slightly more damage than it is possible to heal, which makes your healthcare sort of a timer counting to zero. During that time you need to do enough damage to finish the encounter.
But yeah, most encounters that matter in GW2 have timer and it is basically bad to build defensively from a efficiency point of view. In fact it would be more of a challenge to do enough damage with more defensive stats to some extend. You might be able to ignore some more damage, but you are more likely not able to do enough before the timer runs out.
Then again with timers.. fights cant take forever…
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Its interesting how people on GW2 define what is “useless” and what is “good”. In Dark Souls, the best players are those that have low dps (fist only), rely on nothing except understanding game mechanics, and do not rely on stats (naked). High dps means you don’t not need to know how to reliably counter every boss mechanic 100% of the time, those players specialize in cheesing and bursting down encounters. Low dps, means the boss fight drags out for long enough that you will be forced to experience every attack multiple times and your forced to actually learn them.
Celestial has more than enough DPS, to reliably beat all PvE content. The stat combination is extremely useful in all 3 game modes: PvP (before it was removed), WvW, and PvE. The stat combination, allows your character to be self-sufficient against all situations. Excellent stat for dueling, for roaming, for PvE, and in the past excellent stat for PvP. Meta builds on the other hand are one trick ponies, that optimize one main trait of the build. One small nerf, to their one trick and they fall from the meta.
You raise a very good? pont, to me it sounds like people just get an ego boost off creating the meta like they get to decide what certain metas are . Your right pure do does cheese ways through mechanics.
@op,
Just go download a DPS meter and test the damage you do for yourself.
Just a heads up though: rev, in cele gear is going to be on the low end compared to some others.
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
You raise a very good? pont, to me it sounds like people just get an ego boost off creating the meta like they get to decide what certain metas are . Your right pure do does cheese ways through mechanics.
Can you bring some very profound examples of cheesing mechanics due to dps besides dungeon bosses? (Keep in mind that those are trash as hell!)
And while you’re on it please bring up the real challenging and difficult mechanic you have to deal with if you lack on dps that aren’t there if the dps is high.
I would really like to see those mechanics that are either very hard to execute or show a greater skill level when dealing with them.
You raise a very good? pont, to me it sounds like people just get an ego boost off creating the meta like they get to decide what certain metas are . Your right pure do does cheese ways through mechanics.
Can you bring some very profound examples of cheesing mechanics due to dps besides dungeon bosses? (Keep in mind that those are trash as hell!)
And while you’re on it please bring up the real challenging and difficult mechanic you have to deal with if you lack on dps that aren’t there if the dps is high.
I would really like to see those mechanics that are either very hard to execute or show a greater skill level when dealing with them.
Why are you asking me when I was not the original person to claim this hmmmm? Oh you mean like those skills where you never ever go down in a fight because you cheese through the mechanics with pure dps gear and dodging?
whats wrong with skipping mechanics by doing not really intended but totally legal and unexploitative interactions that let you survive.
in other trinity mmos, people expect the healer to heal through mechanics when all the mechanics do is move you around if you dont want to take damage. people expect tanks/support to provoke bosses into canceling their current attack animation to skip certain attacks. how is that different than just blitzing dps so fast that you dont run out of blocks/heals. what makes it cheese. why is it wrong to do so. why do you have that mentality. it doesnt sound very mmo to me.
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions
Why are you asking me when I was not the original person to claim this hmmmm? Oh you mean like those skills where you never ever go down in a fight because you cheese through the mechanics with pure dps gear and dodging?
Well, you brought this up:
Your right pure do does cheese ways through mechanics.
And I just want to know which (boss) mechanics/skills you are referring to that are cheesed through dps and are that lethal that we can actually talk about someone being more skilled because he has to deal with those mechanics.
Only skipping those would be real cheesing, for example not using updraft at Gorseval does not belong to such a mechanic because it takes more skill to bring random ppl dps-wise in line than to jump out, glide, use an updraft and glide back in.
Seriously I really don’t know which mechanics are meant although I call raids and fractals my living room in GW2.
If you can’t bring up some real severe mechanics that are skipped with dps and therefore can be called cheesing I have to suppose that you are completely wrong and tell fake facts to have an argument here.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
Power necro isn’t meta, but i would take that over celestial any day.
There is a difference between viable, and trash builds/stats. That like running carrion on a GS warrior, when GS applies no condi’s so half the stats are literally wasted.
Having healing power on a necro without BM is wasted.
Having condi dmg on a sword/sword mesmer is wasted.
Having condi dmg on a longbow warrior in general, is wasted.
I shouldn’t need to explain to you why these things are so when you could just read skill descriptions and easily find out.
As for ‘not every like to be squishy’, well duh. Run something that isn’t squishy but isn’t complete gutter. Like commander chrono, or valkyrie necro.
If you read my first reply I thanks everyone for showing me why celestial was not a good choice and accepted it but instead people like yourself keep making assumptions about someone you do not know without even reading anything beyond the topic.
I never disagreed with what your saying, in fact I implied effective build several times some of you need to just get off your high horse eltist attitudes and stop making assumptions about what kind of builds Others want to do.
In no way shape or from did I ever imply I wanted to do something like build a confirmation with no condi gear. Nor did I need an explanation of how skills work.
And people wonder why they consider do many in mmorpgs to be elitists.
I never said what kind of build other want to do, I simply stated the kinds of builds i know for a fact people do.
There is a difference between being elitist, and being not bad. Maybe learn the difference?
The people who consider those in MMO’s to be elitist are delusional tbh. I’d say MOBA’s are way more toxic and elitist, because they are actually competative.
The simple fact people like you are common on this forum, disproves the illogical statement you just made. Stop projecting your views onto other people, and speak for yourself.
You said you wanted celestial gear on revenant correct? Did you forget revenant only has one condi weapon set? Did you forget revenent only has one condi utility legend outside of the shiro elite? You state you don’t need me to explain mechanics, yet you can not seem to fathom why celestial would be just plain bad in a lot of cases, or most cases rather.
(edited by FrostDraco.8306)
Its interesting how people on GW2 define what is “useless” and what is “good”. In Dark Souls, the best players are those that have low dps (fist only), rely on nothing except understanding game mechanics, and do not rely on stats (naked). High dps means you don’t not need to know how to reliably counter every boss mechanic 100% of the time, those players specialize in cheesing and bursting down encounters. Low dps, means the boss fight drags out for long enough that you will be forced to experience every attack multiple times and your forced to actually learn them.
Celestial has more than enough DPS, to reliably beat all PvE content. The stat combination is extremely useful in all 3 game modes: PvP (before it was removed), WvW, and PvE. The stat combination, allows your character to be self-sufficient against all situations. Excellent stat for dueling, for roaming, for PvE, and in the past excellent stat for PvP. Meta builds on the other hand are one trick ponies, that optimize one main trait of the build. One small nerf, to their one trick and they fall from the meta.
Thats not how meta builds work, and only someone who doesnt know why those builds are meta, would make thius statement. It’s an argument from ignorance.
Condi PS for instance. Why is it meta?
Well its not just ‘one small trick’ that makes it meta, it’s a list of reasons.
DPS
DPS uptime
Range
Cleave
Might uptime
Fury uptime
Utility flexability
You would have to nerf all of these to push power PS back into equal standing. And do you seriously think anet is going to gut warrior because one build is META? Are you daft?
Also you can claim celestial can clear all the content. I say put your money where your mouth is. Post benchmarks. Post videos with all celestial gear and times, and build links. THEN we will take your statements as more than pure conjecture by a snowflake.
Lemme know how much fun you have doing no updraft gorseval, or gorseval at all.
(edited by FrostDraco.8306)
Why are you asking me when I was not the original person to claim this hmmmm? Oh you mean like those skills where you never ever go down in a fight because you cheese through the mechanics with pure dps gear and dodging?
Well, you brought this up:
Your right pure do does cheese ways through mechanics.
And I just want to know which (boss) mechanics/skills you are referring to that are cheesed through dps and are that lethal that we can actually talk about someone being more skilled because he has to deal with those mechanics.
Only skipping those would be real cheesing, for example not using updraft at Gorseval does not belong to such a mechanic because it takes more skill to bring random ppl dps-wise in line than to jump out, glide, use an updraft and glide back in.
Seriously I really don’t know which mechanics are meant although I call raids and fractals my living room in GW2.
If you can’t bring up some real severe mechanics that are skipped with dps and therefore can be called cheesing I have to suppose that you are completely wrong and tell fake facts to have an argument here.
So you admit your only here for ego? Ok we are done talking here I did not bring it up I agreed he said it before me lol.
Power necro isn’t meta, but i would take that over celestial any day.
There is a difference between viable, and trash builds/stats. That like running carrion on a GS warrior, when GS applies no condi’s so half the stats are literally wasted.
Having healing power on a necro without BM is wasted.
Having condi dmg on a sword/sword mesmer is wasted.
Having condi dmg on a longbow warrior in general, is wasted.
I shouldn’t need to explain to you why these things are so when you could just read skill descriptions and easily find out.
As for ‘not every like to be squishy’, well duh. Run something that isn’t squishy but isn’t complete gutter. Like commander chrono, or valkyrie necro.
If you read my first reply I thanks everyone for showing me why celestial was not a good choice and accepted it but instead people like yourself keep making assumptions about someone you do not know without even reading anything beyond the topic.
I never disagreed with what your saying, in fact I implied effective build several times some of you need to just get off your high horse eltist attitudes and stop making assumptions about what kind of builds Others want to do.
In no way shape or from did I ever imply I wanted to do something like build a confirmation with no condi gear. Nor did I need an explanation of how skills work.
And people wonder why they consider do many in mmorpgs to be elitists.
I never said what kind of build other want to do, I simply stated the kinds of builds i know for a fact people do.
There is a difference between being elitist, and being not bad. Maybe learn the difference?
The people who consider those in MMO’s to be elitist are delusional tbh. I’d say MOBA’s are way more toxic and elitist, because they are actually competative.
The simple fact people like you are common on this forum, disproves the illogical statement you just made. Stop projecting your views onto other people, and speak for yourself.
You said you wanted celestial gear on revenant correct? Did you forget revenant only has one condi weapon set? Did you forget revenent only has one condi utility legend outside of the shiro elite? You state you don’t need me to explain mechanics, yet you can not seem to fathom why celestial would be just plain bad in a lot of cases, or most cases rather.
You clearly did not read my reply fully, since you cannot read here is a repost.
If you read my first reply I thanks everyone for showing me why celestial was not a good choice and accepted it but instead people like yourself keep making assumptions about someone you do not know without even reading anything beyond the topic.
Which means I ACCEPTED THAT CELESTIAL IS NOT VIABLE IN THIS SENSE FOR THE THIRD TIME NOW in the first 5 replies of this topic, what we where arguing was defensive stats, clearly you have no clue what is going on and only had saw someone arguing and your first feeling was omg must prove wrong for my ego!
I do understand the difference again you did not read.
I never disagreed with what your saying, in fact I implied effective build several times, which clearly means I am talking about effective vs trash builds which I never disagreed with, all your doing here is proving the meta attitude, those who consider elitist attitudes not elitist in mmorpgs are dellusional.
Stop projecting your views on others, I am no in way projecting anything it is my topic, I did not say you do not have to play meta but do not try to tell give me your justification for meta attitude while projecting it into this thread.
So you admit your only here for ego? Ok we are done talking here I did not bring it up I agreed he said it before me lol.
Wth? Ego, why?
I just asked you kindly to tell me those skipped mechanics because it could be possible that I haven’t realized any during my runs although they are there or maybe because I skip them in every run and therefore I don’t notice them.
And while he hasn’t shown up in this thread since but you picked up his claim and emphasized it I had the impression you could enlighten us.
And people wonder why they consider do many in mmorpgs to be elitists.
This is the definition of projection dude. No one stated this but you, in fact i have never heard anyone BUT you say this, and I’ve been playing MMO’s for over a decade.
This is projection. You are the one that thinks it, and obviously you can’t be alone so you bring up the ‘many’ who you haven’t even confirmed exist. It is projection.
I think its funny you keep talking about my ego. When you couldn’t be more wrong, because I don’t care about being better than anyone.
Just deal with the fact you keep on arguing for defensive stats when defensive stats arent that good in a general sense in GW2. Active defenses are way better in this game.
You are delusional if you think thats ‘meta attitude’. It’s just correct. It is a fact.
#DealWithIt
(edited by FrostDraco.8306)
So you admit your only here for ego? Ok we are done talking here I did not bring it up I agreed he said it before me lol.
Wth? Ego, why?
I just asked you kindly to tell me those skipped mechanics because it could be possible that I haven’t realized any during my runs although they are there or maybe because I skip them in every run and therefore I don’t notice them.
And while he hasn’t shown up in this thread since but you picked up his claim and emphasized it I had the impression you could enlighten us.
You sure did not word it that way my apologies if that was not your intention.
And people wonder why they consider do many in mmorpgs to be elitists.
This is the definition of projection dude. No one stated this but you, in fact i have never heard anyone BUT you say this, and I’ve been playing MMO’s for over a decade.
This is projection. You are the one that thinks it, and obviously you can’t be alone so you bring up the ‘many’ who you haven’t even confirmed exist. It is projection.
I think its funny you keep talking about my ego. When you couldn’t be more wrong, because I don’t care about being better than anyone.
Just deal with the fact you keep on arguing for defensive stats when defensive stats arent that good in a general sense in GW2. Active defenses are way better in this game.
You are delusional if you think thats ‘meta attitude’. It’s just correct. It is a fact.
#DealWithIt
No but they did state the meta and showed the attitude in this thread, and I do not care if im the only one who brought it up whats your point? And actually others did bring it up I just directly said what it was.
Your just ticked because I do not agree with you and the fact you did not read any replies correctly and jumped straight to assumptions proving you wrong in multiple ways, it is not a fact #DealWithIt
You raise a very good? pont, to me it sounds like people just get an ego boost off creating the meta like they get to decide what certain metas are . Your right pure do does cheese ways through mechanics.
Can you bring some very profound examples of cheesing mechanics due to dps besides dungeon bosses? (Keep in mind that those are trash as hell!)
And while you’re on it please bring up the real challenging and difficult mechanic you have to deal with if you lack on dps that aren’t there if the dps is high.
I would really like to see those mechanics that are either very hard to execute or show a greater skill level when dealing with them.
I’ll be glad too. With a optimized DPS party. A T4 few boss examples: Old Tom, burst him down (skip the fan). Archdiviner, burst him down, only gets 0-2 big attacks off. Hammer to seal. Burst him down. Repeat. Brazen Gladiator, melee stack and burn. He tries to do the AOE attack. CC, and DPS. Mesmer distorts party through boss attacks, to maximize DPS.
In Dark Souls 3, SlaveKnight Gael
Skilled Player, who knows boss mechanics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0o_hRk6Y9E
Unskilled player, who uses DPS to overpower the boss (guy likes using clickbait titles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zHga3uuv1M
I personally have done a Blood Level 4 run (no leveling) in Bloodborne. And a Soul Level 1 run in Dark Souls 3. Bosses kill you in 1-2 hits. Look up Bloodborne Waste of Skin and Dark Souls 3 SL1 run on youtube. Spoilers it took me 30 hrs to beat bloodborne, all bosses with a regular playthrough. It took 500 hrs on my Waste of Skin run.
Its interesting how people on GW2 define what is “useless” and what is “good”. In Dark Souls, the best players are those that have low dps (fist only), rely on nothing except understanding game mechanics, and do not rely on stats (naked). High dps means you don’t not need to know how to reliably counter every boss mechanic 100% of the time, those players specialize in cheesing and bursting down encounters. Low dps, means the boss fight drags out for long enough that you will be forced to experience every attack multiple times and your forced to actually learn them.
Celestial has more than enough DPS, to reliably beat all PvE content. The stat combination is extremely useful in all 3 game modes: PvP (before it was removed), WvW, and PvE. The stat combination, allows your character to be self-sufficient against all situations. Excellent stat for dueling, for roaming, for PvE, and in the past excellent stat for PvP. Meta builds on the other hand are one trick ponies, that optimize one main trait of the build. One small nerf, to their one trick and they fall from the meta.
Thats not how meta builds work, and only someone who doesnt know why those builds are meta, would make thius statement. It’s an argument from ignorance.
Condi PS for instance. Why is it meta?
Well its not just ‘one small trick’ that makes it meta, it’s a list of reasons.
DPS
DPS uptime
Range
Cleave
Might uptime
Fury uptime
Utility flexabilityYou would have to nerf all of these to push power PS back into equal standing. And do you seriously think anet is going to gut warrior because one build is META? Are you daft?
Also you can claim celestial can clear all the content. I say put your money where your mouth is. Post benchmarks. Post videos with all celestial gear and times, and build links. THEN we will take your statements as more than pure conjecture by a snowflake.
Lemme know how much fun you have doing no updraft gorseval, or gorseval at all.
You don’t seem to understand. Your “meta” is designed around cheesing the content in the fastest quickest way possible, taking the path of least resistance. The DPS benchmark aren’t compared to what DPS is actually needed to reliably beat a PvE encounter(which is the only thing that matters).
Your trying to tell me Power PS cannot reliably clear out all raids? Power PS who also has access to everything you just listed.
Instead of a compilation of walkthroughs that show exactly how to counter every move that a boss does for every profession (like in dark souls). Instead we have Metabattle and DPS benchmarks, and people prejudicing against other players for using different builds that can reliably beat PvE content. The fact that there is prejudice in PvE is even more hilarious. This isn’t PvP or roaming.
yeesh. go do a naked, no ui, no dodge lupi kill and come tell us dark souls and bloodborne are harder.
the goal there isnt to generate loot, thats the difference youre ignoring.
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions
I’ll be glad too. With a optimized DPS party. A T4 few boss examples: Old Tom, burst him down (skip the fan).
Uhm, I asked about severe mechanics that show a decent skill level. Not using the tears for consoles is not a such a mechanic. You don’t even need to burst Old Tom down. You could also outheal all incoming damage with a healer and still beat him.
Archdiviner, burst him down, only gets 0-2 big attacks off. Hammer to seal. Burst him down. Repeat.
Also a very very bad example. His mechanics are easy to avoid and dodge. Skilled players just shorten the time of the fight. They don’t skip anything they just do more dps so he dies faster. But if you look at the usual pug run with all players going full ham (= dps), he will get more than 2 attacks off and still beaten easily because those attacks are no threat. Funny thing is to fight the Archdiviner is getting harder the more unskilled players you have in your group due to going down all the time by not dodging properly and running away from the stack letting him port-smack.
Brazen Gladiator, melee stack and burn. He tries to do the AOE attack. CC, and DPS. Mesmer distorts party through boss attacks, to maximize DPS.
Again a wrong example. Just because there are some mesmers that are actually using skills to prevent attacks doesn’t mean that they are unskilled – the opposite is true. The common mesmer isn’t even able to distort all his attacks. So if you meet such a mes you are having a skilled one, not an unskilled player, lol.
And again, his mechanics are not oneshots or anything else.
In Dark Souls 3, SlaveKnight Gael
Skilled Player, who knows boss mechanics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0o_hRk6Y9EUnskilled player, who uses DPS to overpower the boss (guy likes using clickbait titles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zHga3uuv1MI personally have done a Blood Level 4 run (no leveling) in Bloodborne. And a Soul Level 1 run in Dark Souls 3. Bosses kill you in 1-2 hits. Look up Bloodborne Waste of Skin and Dark Souls 3 SL1 run on youtube. Spoilers it took me 30 hrs to beat bloodborne, all bosses with a regular playthrough. It took 500 hrs on my Waste of Skin run.
Lol, those “examples”.
Sorry, but you mix different things together. While I won’t deny that there are lethal mechanics that can be skipped by dps in the other games you mentioned because I don’t play them you are wrong with GW2.
Following your logic you should never beat a boss in GW2 because a boss like the Archdiviner hasn’t done 1 million hammer attacks before you kill him. So, where is the limit? 5 hammer attacks, 10, 20, 30?
And like insanemaniac wrote: Go do a naked kill, no ui, no dodge lupi because that would be the exact comparison to your “examples”.
—-
To sum everything up:
Nice comparing apples to oranges.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
Its interesting how people on GW2 define what is “useless” and what is “good”. In Dark Souls, the best players are those that have low dps (fist only), rely on nothing except understanding game mechanics, and do not rely on stats (naked). High dps means you don’t not need to know how to reliably counter every boss mechanic 100% of the time, those players specialize in cheesing and bursting down encounters. Low dps, means the boss fight drags out for long enough that you will be forced to experience every attack multiple times and your forced to actually learn them.
Absolute apples to oranges comparison.
First off, you are comparing gear choice in a Dark Souls game which speficially is chosen around making the game harder to show player skill. The aim here is to show how proficient the player is by using minimal advantage versus maximum risk. This is the absolute oposite of what meta actual means (“Most-Efficient-Tactical-Advantage”).
What you should be comparing meta to is the broken and cheesy weapons which Fromsoftware keeps nerfing to keep the game balanced. Which get used by a majority of the playerbase to speedrun or finish the game as easy and fast as possible.
No one is going to deny you the glory of calling you superp if you do a very tough or hard GW2 boss fight solo or with harsh selfimposed penalties. That’s not the aim of meta builds and builds in general though in this game (unless as mentioned selfimposed).
When designing a build for GW2 you try to optimise to gain the maximum benefit you can in order to overcome challanges with as minimum effort as possible, usually in order to gain as much loot as possible (something not done in Dark Souls).
This has less to do with playerskill and more with loot gain optimisation. Two completely different ideas endgame wise.
Celestial has more than enough DPS, to reliably beat all PvE content. The stat combination is extremely useful in all 3 game modes: PvP (before it was removed), WvW, and PvE. The stat combination, allows your character to be self-sufficient against all situations. Excellent stat for dueling, for roaming, for PvE, and in the past excellent stat for PvP. Meta builds on the other hand are one trick ponies, that optimize one main trait of the build. One small nerf, to their one trick and they fall from the meta.
We are talking pve here, no one denies that different stat combinations are useful for wvw or spvp due to the very nature of opponents you meet (human ones who can adapt and react differently).
Yes, meta builds are one-trick ponies being the best at what they do. In this case beat pve obsticles with the least amount of effort or the fastest amount of time. They literally provide you with a build for being the best at 1 thing (sometimes 2). Since most of the pve game though only has this 1 obstacle to overcome (beating the ai and boss patterns without dying) it’s the most efficient at doing so.
Deviation from this for easier use and play can be done by taking more defensive stats. They are simply NOT NEEDED if your player skill is high enough to not die. Yes, some boss fights actually get easier this way (Goreseval for example if you can skip his updraft phases with enough dps). It still means though you have to bring the minimum amount of player skill to abuse the dps advantage, which already is an obstacle for many players.
You don’t seem to understand. Your “meta” is designed around cheesing the content in the fastest quickest way possible, taking the path of least resistance. The DPS benchmark aren’t compared to what DPS is actually needed to reliably beat a PvE encounter(which is the only thing that matters).
Your trying to tell me Power PS cannot reliably clear out all raids? Power PS who also has access to everything you just listed.
Instead of a compilation of walkthroughs that show exactly how to counter every move that a boss does for every profession (like in dark souls). Instead we have Metabattle and DPS benchmarks, and people prejudicing against other players for using different builds that can reliably beat PvE content. The fact that there is prejudice in PvE is even more hilarious. This isn’t PvP or roaming.
You keep saying ‘my’ meta. As if i personally just arbitrarily decide what’s good and what isn’t.
Firstly, a good player tries to do things efficiently and with the path of least resistance given the rules of the encounter. EVEN when given a handy cap, the smart player will choose that path. Not waste time doing something inefficient just to placate the casual scrubs that arbitrarily value an encounter taking longer.
Most raid bosses perform their mechanics at % hp benchmarks, there is no skipping them, and the ones that do have mechanics you can skip, are due to efficient play, which good players will already be striving for.
I never said anything about the DPS benchmark, you did. Wanna know something about actual damage? Condi PS still out dpses power PS. especially in wing 4, in which bosses have high toughness, and mechanics you need to dodge or path around.
The average player isn’t good enough to reliably clear raids at all. Why would you choose a build that locks you into animations, is clunky, and puts you out of position, in encounters in which mechanics interrupt your rotation frequently, because of moving bosses, and deadly aoes?
Power PS cant cleave a target 800-900 meters away.
Power PS doesn’t have good fury uptime on allies.
Power PS doesn’t have the benefit of being able to range bosses and not lose all of its damage and might generation.
Power PS doesn’t have the option of being able to take reflects without gutting its damage and might generation for the average player.
Power PS can’t even clear condi’s on itself.
Yes it had more CC….that’s it. One advantage that can be balanced out by a good team and proper cc application. Even on keep construct, condi PS can pull similar dps.
We have plenty of walkthroughs, just because you don’t bother to look for them, doesn’t mean they aren’t there. Hell [qT] uploaded Twisted castle solo’s this week for the lols.
Chances are if your build is bad, you are a bad player. There is a reason that meta builds, closely follow viable builds. Like the condi ele thats now meta? I’ve have a fully geared once since HoT i now get to raid with. Because the build wasn’t trash, just not meta.
I can’t say the same for your celestial death magic necro’s, and your carrion long bow rangers, and yes, they do exist.
(edited by FrostDraco.8306)
Its interesting how people on GW2 define what is “useless” and what is “good”. In Dark Souls, the best players are those that have low dps (fist only), rely on nothing except understanding game mechanics, and do not rely on stats (naked). High dps means you don’t not need to know how to reliably counter every boss mechanic 100% of the time, those players specialize in cheesing and bursting down encounters. Low dps, means the boss fight drags out for long enough that you will be forced to experience every attack multiple times and your forced to actually learn them.
Absolute apples to oranges comparison.
First off, you are comparing gear choice in a Dark Souls game which speficially is chosen around making the game harder to show player skill. The aim here is to show how proficient the player is by using minimal advantage versus maximum risk. This is the absolute oposite of what meta actual means (“Most-Efficient-Tactical-Advantage”).
What you should be comparing meta to is the broken and cheesy weapons which Fromsoftware keeps nerfing to keep the game balanced. Which get used by a majority of the playerbase to speedrun or finish the game as easy and fast as possible.
No one is going to deny you the glory of calling you superp if you do a very tough or hard GW2 boss fight solo or with harsh selfimposed penalties. That’s not the aim of meta builds and builds in general though in this game (unless as mentioned selfimposed).
When designing a build for GW2 you try to optimise to gain the maximum benefit you can in order to overcome challanges with as minimum effort as possible, usually in order to gain as much loot as possible (something not done in Dark Souls).
This has less to do with playerskill and more with loot gain optimisation. Two completely different ideas endgame wise.
Celestial has more than enough DPS, to reliably beat all PvE content. The stat combination is extremely useful in all 3 game modes: PvP (before it was removed), WvW, and PvE. The stat combination, allows your character to be self-sufficient against all situations. Excellent stat for dueling, for roaming, for PvE, and in the past excellent stat for PvP. Meta builds on the other hand are one trick ponies, that optimize one main trait of the build. One small nerf, to their one trick and they fall from the meta.
We are talking pve here, no one denies that different stat combinations are useful for wvw or spvp due to the very nature of opponents you meet (human ones who can adapt and react differently).
Yes, meta builds are one-trick ponies being the best at what they do. In this case beat pve obsticles with the least amount of effort or the fastest amount of time. They literally provide you with a build for being the best at 1 thing (sometimes 2). Since most of the pve game though only has this 1 obstacle to overcome (beating the ai and boss patterns without dying) it’s the most efficient at doing so.
Deviation from this for easier use and play can be done by taking more defensive stats. They are simply NOT NEEDED if your player skill is high enough to not die. Yes, some boss fights actually get easier this way (Goreseval for example if you can skip his updraft phases with enough dps). It still means though you have to bring the minimum amount of player skill to abuse the dps advantage, which already is an obstacle for many players.
Thank you, that exactly what I am trying to point out. The GW2 PvE Meta is “the broken and cheesy weapons which Fromsoftware keeps nerfing to keep the game balanced. Which get used by a majority of the playerbase to speedrun or finish the game as easy and fast as possible”. TL;DR Cheesing the game, to get the shinies. Instead of players looking up to challenge runners and wanting to get better (like in dark souls), players look up to the people with the best cheese.
The irony is as long as you understand the mechanics, you don’t need anywhere near meta DPS to win in this game. Having a fun challenge isn’t the goal of “meta” players, its about putting everything on farm. And that’s just sad.
Celestial (the title of this topic), has sufficient DPS and defense. In fact, the stat combination is so self-sufficient that you can hold your own not only in PvE but also in WvW and in the past PvP. It is a stat combination that works everywhere. How many stat combinations are effective in all game modes? You have “just” enough of everything to get the job done, no matter what the job is. I personally like mixing a few pieces of celestial in with zerk/vipers. Small decrease to my attack, for significant increase to defense.
(edited by Chun.5827)
Celestial (the title of this topic), has sufficient DPS and defense. In fact, the stat combination is so self-sufficient that you can hold your own not only in PvE but also in WvW and in the past PvP. It is a stat combination that works everywhere. How many stat combinations are effective in all game modes? You have “just” enough of everything to get the job done, no matter what the job is. I personally like mixing a few pieces of celestial in with zerk/vipers. Small decrease to my attack, for significant increase to defense.
The point is that this statement above doesn’t matter at all. GW2 is not a game defined by “pick the build that is overall the best across all game modes”. Can you do it? Sure. But the core functionality that this game is build on it making many builds that are best AT an individual specific task. Maybe for Cele thats WvW (I know guards use it), but it definitely isn’t PvE.
Highest level of equipment is account bound. You can stat swap the highest equipment to new builds very easily. There are weapons, backpieces, and armor that you can stat swap for free out of combat. There are trinkets that you can stat swap for 100 of a currency that is so filled that it is irrelevant. All of these things add up to mean that this game is designed to its core for you to make a specific build for each situation…not one build that does most things very average. This is also way better for ANET because the more time you spend playing with new builds, acquiring more gear, etc the more money they get.
A company wouldn’t hire you if you said “Well i’m going to do ‘just enough’ to get the job done and make money”. Same concept here.
TLDR: There is no “best”…there is only “best at”
(edited by ButterPeanut.9746)
Thank you, that exactly what I am trying to point out. The GW2 PvE Meta is “the broken and cheesy weapons which Fromsoftware keeps nerfing to keep the game balanced. Which get used by a majority of the playerbase to speedrun or finish the game as easy and fast as possible”. TL;DR Cheesing the game, to get the shinies. Instead of players looking up to challenge runners and wanting to get better (like in dark souls), players look up to the people with the best cheese.
The irony is as long as you understand the mechanics, you don’t need anywhere near meta DPS to win in this game. Having a fun challenge isn’t the goal of “meta” players, its about putting everything on farm. And that’s just sad.
Celestial (the title of this topic), has sufficient DPS and defense. In fact, the stat combination is so self-sufficient that you can hold your own not only in PvE but also in WvW and in the past PvP. It is a stat combination that works everywhere. How many stat combinations are effective in all game modes? You have “just” enough of everything to get the job done, no matter what the job is. I personally like mixing a few pieces of celestial in with zerk/vipers. Small decrease to my attack, for significant increase to defense.
That has to be one of the stupidest things I have read in a while.
So being efficient and optimising your build and gear is cheesing the game. You still haven’t understood that the comparison you make is not working. When I was talkiing about overpowered weapons in Dark Souls I was giving an example similar to what people do with builds and gear in MMOs. They optimise to get the best possible output.
You are effectively saying that being mediocre is the best approach while arguing that specialising and being the best possible at your role is bad. I’m not even sure how to counter argue that it’s so unbelievably stupid.
Celestial is jack-of-all and master of none pve wise, worse even it’s worse than jack-of-all since a mix of different attribute equipments would produce a better omni-role-set while removing all the useless stats celestial has…
Thank you, that exactly what I am trying to point out. The GW2 PvE Meta is “the broken and cheesy weapons which Fromsoftware keeps nerfing to keep the game balanced. Which get used by a majority of the playerbase to speedrun or finish the game as easy and fast as possible”. TL;DR Cheesing the game, to get the shinies. Instead of players looking up to challenge runners and wanting to get better (like in dark souls), players look up to the people with the best cheese.
The irony is as long as you understand the mechanics, you don’t need anywhere near meta DPS to win in this game. Having a fun challenge isn’t the goal of “meta” players, its about putting everything on farm. And that’s just sad.
Celestial (the title of this topic), has sufficient DPS and defense. In fact, the stat combination is so self-sufficient that you can hold your own not only in PvE but also in WvW and in the past PvP. It is a stat combination that works everywhere. How many stat combinations are effective in all game modes? You have “just” enough of everything to get the job done, no matter what the job is. I personally like mixing a few pieces of celestial in with zerk/vipers. Small decrease to my attack, for significant increase to defense.
That has to be one of the stupidest things I have read in a while.
So being efficient and optimising your build and gear is cheesing the game. You still haven’t understood that the comparison you make is not working. When I was talkiing about overpowered weapons in Dark Souls I was giving an example similar to what people do with builds and gear in MMOs. They optimise to get the best possible output.
You are effectively saying that being mediocre is the best approach while arguing that specialising and being the best possible at your role is bad. I’m not even sure how to counter argue that it’s so unbelievably stupid.
Celestial is jack-of-all and master of none pve wise, worse even it’s worse than jack-of-all since a mix of different attribute equipments would produce a better omni-role-set while removing all the useless stats celestial has…
Nope you completely misunderstood what I meant. I never said specializing is bad. But on the other hand, being self-sufficient and flexible isn’t bad either. What is “mediocre”? That’s the problem with people on the internet, they are incapable of speaking precisely. My definition: Anything that can get the job done reliably and in “decent” time is good. Celestial does this, and unlike specializing is capable of fulfilling many roles in many situations.
TL;DR specializing is good in its own way. But so is being self-sufficient and flexible. That is not the same was “mediocre” or “useless”
When you optimize to the point where your doing 3-5 times more DPS needed, to reliably beat a encounter. Then yes, your cheesing (i.e overpowering the enemy with overwhelming damage).
Please stop thinking in extremes. Its not either nomads or zerker. There are a lot of choices in between. You can still clear content in “decent” time without meta builds. Everything else isn’t useless or extremely inefficient. Hyperbole and emotional responses, is not a good way to get a point across.
When you optimize to the point where your doing 3-5 times more DPS needed, to reliably beat a encounter. Then yes, your cheesing (i.e overpowering the enemy with overwhelming damage).
Please stop thinking in extremes. Its not either nomads or zerker. There are a lot of choices in between. You can still clear content in “decent” time without meta builds. Everything else isn’t useless or extremely inefficient. Hyperbole and emotional responses, is not a good way to get a point across.
You interpret that as cheesing…I interpret it as the content is too relaxed on DPS requirements.
When you optimize to the point where your doing 3-5 times more DPS needed, to reliably beat a encounter. Then yes, your cheesing (i.e overpowering the enemy with overwhelming damage).
Please stop thinking in extremes. Its not either nomads or zerker. There are a lot of choices in between. You can still clear content in “decent” time without meta builds. Everything else isn’t useless or extremely inefficient. Hyperbole and emotional responses, is not a good way to get a point across.
You interpret that as cheesing…I interpret it as the content is too relaxed on DPS requirements.
But you just proved his point, he is trying to say that meta is subjective between over dpsing and doing it a little different.
When you optimize to the point where your doing 3-5 times more DPS needed, to reliably beat a encounter. Then yes, your cheesing (i.e overpowering the enemy with overwhelming damage).
Please stop thinking in extremes. Its not either nomads or zerker. There are a lot of choices in between. You can still clear content in “decent” time without meta builds. Everything else isn’t useless or extremely inefficient. Hyperbole and emotional responses, is not a good way to get a point across.
You interpret that as cheesing…I interpret it as the content is too relaxed on DPS requirements.
But you just proved his point, he is trying to say that meta is subjective between over dpsing and doing it a little different.
That impossible based on the definition of meta. Its like saying there is more than one “best”. Are other things viable and possible? Sure! But not meta.
When you optimize to the point where your doing 3-5 times more DPS needed, to reliably beat a encounter. Then yes, your cheesing (i.e overpowering the enemy with overwhelming damage).
Please stop thinking in extremes. Its not either nomads or zerker. There are a lot of choices in between. You can still clear content in “decent” time without meta builds. Everything else isn’t useless or extremely inefficient. Hyperbole and emotional responses, is not a good way to get a point across.
You interpret that as cheesing…I interpret it as the content is too relaxed on DPS requirements.
But you just proved his point, he is trying to say that meta is subjective between over dpsing and doing it a little different.
That impossible based on the definition of meta. Its like saying there is more than one “best”. Are other things viable and possible? Sure! But not meta.
That’s not what meta means. Meta is simply the understanding of the most popular builds.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Metagame
YouTube
When you optimize to the point where your doing 3-5 times more DPS needed, to reliably beat a encounter. Then yes, your cheesing (i.e overpowering the enemy with overwhelming damage).
Please stop thinking in extremes. Its not either nomads or zerker. There are a lot of choices in between. You can still clear content in “decent” time without meta builds. Everything else isn’t useless or extremely inefficient. Hyperbole and emotional responses, is not a good way to get a point across.
You interpret that as cheesing…I interpret it as the content is too relaxed on DPS requirements.
But you just proved his point, he is trying to say that meta is subjective between over dpsing and doing it a little different.
That impossible based on the definition of meta. Its like saying there is more than one “best”. Are other things viable and possible? Sure! But not meta.
That’s not what meta means. Meta is simply the understanding of the most popular builds.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Metagame
What makes a build popular in a game? Its effectiveness…aka meta = “best at”.
When you optimize to the point where your doing 3-5 times more DPS needed, to reliably beat a encounter. Then yes, your cheesing (i.e overpowering the enemy with overwhelming damage).
Please stop thinking in extremes. Its not either nomads or zerker. There are a lot of choices in between. You can still clear content in “decent” time without meta builds. Everything else isn’t useless or extremely inefficient. Hyperbole and emotional responses, is not a good way to get a point across.
You interpret that as cheesing…I interpret it as the content is too relaxed on DPS requirements.
But you just proved his point, he is trying to say that meta is subjective between over dpsing and doing it a little different.
That impossible based on the definition of meta. Its like saying there is more than one “best”. Are other things viable and possible? Sure! But not meta.
That’s not what meta means. Meta is simply the understanding of the most popular builds.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Metagame
From exactly the quoted wiki you linked after the first sentance:
Instead, the PvE meta represents the community’s best guesses as to the most efficient way of playing. In contrast to PvP, good PvE players do not have to read the PvE meta, although most mini-max practitioners believe it is foolish to use any but the most efficient tools.
- https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Metagame
So no, while many think meta stands for most popular builds, those builds and popularity of them is based on them being the most efficient (or believed to be most efficient).
If people want to argue celestial being meta, go and disprove the high ranking pve guilds that you can do better than them or that building more defensively far outways the benefits of pure damage builds.
I think Celestial works really well on Guardian. I’m using Celestial right now for a tanky/dps/jack-of-all trades build that can be used in any type of content. I’ve used Celestial gear to pug fractals all the way up to Tier 4.
This is the build I’m running:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQJASRnsABFChddCmCBEEhl4BrKAslqXYLh/zWQe/1/WgA-TBCBABnpEMgLAQe6AwSZApq/YmSvo3fAgHAQAAEgbezAAA-e
This is my secret: I equip Celestial on everything EXCEPT for my Weapons, Amulet, and Backpiece. Those three pieces of gear that are not Celestial can be swapped to give me more stats of a desired role I want to perform. In this case, I run Beserker for a more power-oriented build, but I still have very well-rounded base stats to fall back on.
If I want more Healing Power/Condition Damage/whatever else, I can just stat swap the non-celestial pieces of gear, and I will have a noticeable difference in stats that lets me perform better in a different role.
Another important part of the build is Rune of Exuberance. This adds a bunch more stats to help compensate for Guardians’ low HP, while also boosting DPS stats/survive-ability.
My secret to using guardian in full zerkers on all types of PvE content is getting gud.
You should try it too.
I think Celestial works really well on Guardian. I’m using Celestial right now for a tanky/dps/jack-of-all trades build that can be used in any type of content. I’ve used Celestial gear to pug fractals all the way up to Tier 4.
This is the build I’m running:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQJASRnsABFChddCmCBEEhl4BrKAslqXYLh/zWQe/1/WgA-TBCBABnpEMgLAQe6AwSZApq/YmSvo3fAgHAQAAEgbezAAA-e
This is my secret: I equip Celestial on everything EXCEPT for my Weapons, Amulet, and Backpiece. Those three pieces of gear that are not Celestial can be swapped to give me more stats of a desired role I want to perform. In this case, I run Beserker for a more power-oriented build, but I still have very well-rounded base stats to fall back on.
If I want more Healing Power/Condition Damage/whatever else, I can just stat swap the non-celestial pieces of gear, and I will have a noticeable difference in stats that lets me perform better in a different role.
Another important part of the build is Rune of Exuberance. This adds a bunch more stats to help compensate for Guardians’ low HP, while also boosting DPS stats/survive-ability.
Expensive rune for a bad build….Man i dont know whether to laugh, or pity you.
There are two ways to cheese encounters in this game.
One is to burst something down before it can actually hurt you. The second way is to just go so tanky that nothing threatens you anymore.
Claiming something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEcVtSo0-H8 is more skillful than running efficient builds with just enough defenses provided by your mesmer and some healing from the druid makes me chuckle.
You asked about Ele’s running Celestial. That was an older build that some ele’s still run but it isn’t as efficient as it was once with the changes to the ele’s traits. It works on an ele because of the ele’s attunement swapping and trait setup. That is why you would see some ele’s using it. It was a big wvw roaming build. It was not used for role swapping.
In my opinion, celestial wouldn’t be good for any type of role swapping on any class. It doesn’t do anything well enough to be able to fill any roles. But it is used for specific builds on certain classes for very nitche stuff.
As for you opinion about defensive stats being used, it has nothing to do with the meta. I have been running high offensive stat builds since about 4 months after the game came out. In other mmo’s with dodge mechinacs, you still had the trinity, which in turn made some defense a must on a lot of toons. But in GW2, the lack of the trinity, along with every class being given a heal, kinda took away the need for defensive stats. It has nothing to do with the meta builds out there. I never even went to look up meta builds until about 6 months ago. I just came up with something on my own and there was no need for defensive stats. The meta builds are just maximizing a build potential.
So you opinion about defensive stats in PvE is wrong and has been proven that way for years with the way the mechanics of this game works. Now that is not to say that they can’t be used, but they aren’t needed if you take the time to learn and understand your class. But I am only talking about PvE when talking about defensive stasts.
______________________________________
Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of my way.
Celestial stats aren’t all that strong on their own, and do not fit within the current metagame at the moment.
There are two ways I can see Celestial gear becoming viable: through traits, or through runes.
I would vote to make a rune series, something simple and baseline that could help promote these things. Hypothetically:
“Superior Rune of the Horizon”
1: +8 To all stats.
2: If all of your base attributes are equal to each other, +5% Damage and Condition Damage.
3: +12 to all stats.
4: If all of your base attributes are equal to each other, +5% Condition and Boon Duration
5: +16 to all stats.
6: If all of your base attributes are equal to each other, +5% Outgoing Healing, 5% Revival Speed.
Ryou,
I’m horribly disappointed with some of the trash you’re receiving as comments. (not all, but some) Not so much in what they’re saying, but how they’re saying it. I hope I can shed a little light on why I don’t use celestial in a little more civil fashion…
Celestial stats have a little of everything (except boon duration and condi duration) and that seems hugely powerful as you’re getting more overall stats than any other choice. And really, it’s tempting when you want to play one character in more than one role… But here’s where the problem comes in GW2 is designed to be a min-max game.
Think about it. All weapons, all skills, and all traits do exactly 1 thing well; with relatively few exceptions. They either deal damage, deal conditions, give healing, give boons, etc.. With that being said, at any given point in time, depending on your current focus (damage, condi, support, etc) your skills will be heavily weighted in one direction, and your stats will be notably weaker in that direction than if they were a secondary stat on any 3-stat combination. So someone in Shaman’s will deal far more condition damage than you while being a superior healer, someone in Sinister will deal far more direct damage while having a higher crit chance, and someone with Dire or Soldier’s stats will be far more sustainable as a tank in both toughness and vitality. And that’s entirely ignoring primary stats.
Back when crit chance, boon duration, condi duration, and magic find were all part of celestial as percentages (years ago now, and back then they were far higher a percentage than they probably should have been), celestial was a reasonably viable jack-of-all-trades. It was a decent first, second, or third choice on several classes especially when you consider it was about the only way to boost boon duration back then. Now things have changed… It takes forever to kill anything in celestial gear, and I’ve found it doesn’t really give enough suitability for the insanely long fights it forced me into.
It sounds good in theory, but in practice, it’s horrific in PVE content.
If it were a decent second option, or even third option for most categories, I’d say “whatever, go for it!”. However I know from experience that outside of a Raid/ WvW settings (and even then, only extremely specific builds), it’s not in the top 10 stats anymore for any given focus.
I’d strongly suggest you make 2 sets of more focused armor, or start with one set and get a second when you can. You’ll feel a lot more useful and you’ll be a lot more effective with a 3/4 stat armor set, whether or not they’re the “meta” selection.
Feel free to ignore me, and good luck if you do; but you’ll probably hate it regardless of your play style. I wanted to like Celestial, I really did. But from experience I can tell you it’s not worth it.