Guild Wars 2

This is a serious question resulting from my experiences with the new AC plus some of the other dungeons.

Now, I think the new AC is flawed because knockback spamming swarms of mobs are simply not fun. This is actually a long running complaint of mine going back to the first games that allowed the AI to CC chain. It’s just not fun getting killed without being able to fight back. The new gravelings might be better individually that the old graveling scavengers, but there are more of them now with knockback/knockdown and therefore, the end result is the same. You eventually can’t dodge anymore, and then you die.

That out of the way, the biggest problem is that I’m 100% sure there is no way a group of level 35 toons in even the best level 35 gear can complete any of the AC explorable paths now. This is a pretty significant change from before were you could not only complete them, but it wouldn’t take that much longer than a full 80 team (maybe 35-40 minutes instead of 20-25).

The new Kholer fight with infinite adds bites. Eventually he pulls a necro or ranger out of his back pocket, and since those are still the OP mess that they’ve always been, it’s death to the party…unless it’s a full DPS level 80 part that just buzzsaws everything. But an actual mix of different classes and builds and levels…hah…party wipe.

The new faster mob-spawning burrows that spit out so many more gravelings, most of whom have knockback/knockdown…ya…party wipe unless you have the same massive DPS, preferably with an elementalist or two for ice bows.

The boss fights themselves…yes, more interesting. I like the new mechanics of taking them down. I do not like the ‘you miss a single dodge you die’ level of their damage output. Well, actually my bunker necro can take a few shots, but I’m thinking if the standard for fighting bosses is a head to toe high vitality class wearing high defense armor and traited/runed to get back damage from toughness, then maybe the standard needs some re-thunking.

And it’s not just AC. Anyone really enjoy running through the caves in any of the paths of CM? How about all the mobs that got the sniper stuff added to them, espec since they’ll have a dozen or more other mobs to hide behind while sniping?

There’s a reason why gw2lfg is getting to be more and more limited to just a few paths seeking players with just a few builds. Players want to have fun, and getting wiped a half dozen times or more is not fun.

A week or so ago, a group of players with Lv 35s attempted to finish a path of AC Here and succeeded. I think it shows that even at Lv 35, understanding what strategies and tactics to use when and where trumps gear and levels.

I admit, the knock backs have made the dungeon a bit trickier, but not by much. As far as I know, every single class has either a utility skill or elite skill that produces stability in order to counteract knock backs. As far as I have experienced, path 1 is still fast to run, path 2 is fast with communication and knowing how to debug the NPC/Ghost eater, and path 3 has gotten trickier unless you really know what you’re doing.

edit: As far as CM goes, I haven’t run that in a while so I cannot give any input in that area

Danireathorn.2814:

A week or so ago, a group of players with Lv 35s attempted to finish a path of AC Here and succeeded. I think it shows that even at Lv 35, understanding what strategies and tactics to use when and where trumps gear and levels.

I admit, the knock backs have made the dungeon a bit trickier, but not by much. As far as I know, every single class has either a utility skill or elite skill that produces stability in order to counteract knock backs. As far as I have experienced, path 1 is still fast to run, path 2 is fast with communication and knowing how to debug the NPC/Ghost eater, and path 3 has gotten trickier unless you really know what you’re doing.

edit: As far as CM goes, I haven’t run that in a while so I cannot give any input in that area

I saw that thread. Instead of level 80, maybe I should have titled this thread “Are new players not allowed in dungeons?”

There is no way a group of new players is completing any AC path when they hit 35. It is likely no group of new players is completing AC no matter what level they are.

I took a new-ish group on path one last night. It took three hours even though I know exactly what to do and even took time to explain things. There was more wrong than just the difficulty (ie. Kholer by himself ending up culled at least once because of the sheer amount of particle effects from two necros with wells, guardian symbols, marks, mesmer clones, etc), but the big problem is that you’re asking new players to play perfectly. If you miss a dodge, you die. If you miss Kholer’s sparkly hand, you die. If you miss getting out of the way of Howling King’s scream or lazer, you die. If you burn up all your endurance dodging and another graveling starts you on the chain-knockback, you die.

As for skills and stability…what you’re arguing is that not only do you need to be an experienced player, but you have to use a build designed specifically to counter the bad design decision of 3/4ths of all the mobs having cc abilities. Thankfully, you don’t actually need stability to finish, but that’s not going to be a convincing argument that the dungeon difficulty isn’t out of whack unless ANet specifically wants dungeons to be experienced players only.

If they do, so be it. There’s lots of other content to do. The problem is that in turn, a lot of players won’t do any dungeons. Open world PvE rewards are better, lower risk, no groups required, etc.

I’d greatly prefer the old gravelings and Kholer with improved boss mechanics in the fights. At least then the only gravelings with out of control CC were the scavengers. I’d also very greatly prefer if the boss fights weren’t dependent on random NPC actions (Hodgins fire circles are annoying since he tosses them randomly and slowly…Grast at times just gets stupid)

Another way to look at the out-of-control difficulty of AC versus even Arah. You can solo Arah. It’s way, way hard, but doable. You cannot solo AC.

Maestro and I disagreed a lot on what dungeons should be and shouldn’t be (Maestro organized the run). I agree that Anet has intended explorable to be done by very well communicated and knowledgeable groups (aside from CoF p1 of course).

Story mode is supposed to be the introductory dungeons where novice or non-voice communicating parties have an easy time (aside from AC story of course =))

The explorable modes are able to be completed at their “designated” levels. However, they’re not for random PUGs who don’t know anything about the encounter. If you don’t do any research, you’ll likely be wiped way more and have to figure out strategies to overcome it for yourself – not a bad thing if you like that, but still not your most efficient route.

I completed my first SE last night. I had never done anything but AC (before that awful patch) and Fractals. AC (explore mode) before the patch made me reluctant to even attempt other dungeons. AC after the patch made me think I would never go into an explorable mode dungeon again. I understand there are some methods to deal with some of the extreme difficulty there but seriously, this is NOT the way to start players on dungeons. I am convinced we are losing players because anyone not thoroughly experienced has an unpleasant experience in AC. Or is it that we don’t CARE about keeping players in the game? Elitism?
My comment about SE is because, while it was difficult and we had to retry some things – one spot seems to boot people from the game to desktop who don’t have pretty good hardware and internet connection, and we had to work out a strategy for the golems – it did not leave me swearing a blue streak like AC did. I just listened in vent and we discussed and worked it out. We did see something peculiar though: often the two rangers’ heal springs healed NO ONE but the person who dropped it. We all remarked on it and no one had ever had that experience before.

Think of it this way; When the game first came out, whoever ran dungeons had to experience them themselves in order to learn how best to do it. There were no guides or video walkthroughs during Beta or the first days of the game.

Maestro’s group was experienced, and there is no doubt that it wasn’t the first time they were doing the AC EXP path. However, they were Lv 35s and not Lv 80s. Therefore it may prove:

• You can do AC without full exotics or even rares
• You can do AC without having to have all 70 trait points

So the biggest overall factor of successfully doing a dungeon is : Experience

A group experienced in AC EXP will be able to complete it faster than a group that is not experienced.

However, a non experienced group that is willing to die/wipe multiple times will most likely finish an AC EXP path, even if they take hours to complete it.

Xavori.3768:

I saw that thread. Instead of level 80, maybe I should have titled this thread “Are new players not allowed in dungeons?”

There is no way a group of new players is completing any AC path when they hit 35. It is likely no group of new players is completing AC no matter what level they are

I suppose the only way to find out is to actually document a group of 35s that are new and haven’t been in the dungeon. I’m sure it would be easier said than done though and would require extensive runs and trials. For example, how does one accurately monitor having a group of fresh Lv 35s doing AC Exp for the first time? Would letting them read guides/walkthroughs or videos be acceptable? In order to accurately prove it one way or the other, we need to have multiple runs under the same set of rules.

While this does sound interesting, I myself wouldn’t have the time (or care) to conduct these experiments. It would be extremely hard to make sure every group of Lv 35s would adhere to a universal set of rules in order for the experiment to be conducted right.

What I mean is that we cannot say AC is “Impossible” or “cannot be done” with fresh new Lv 35s. We also can’t assume that it “Can” be done with fresh new Lv 35s.

Bottom line is, until we have proof that a fresh new group of Lv 35s can complete AC, we will never know.

The question becomes how do we record a fresh new group of Lv 35s? Or rather, who would take the time to do that?

I’m not saying your argument is invalid, but saying there is “no way” or it is “impossible” is a very strong statement.

Xavori.3768:

I took a new-ish group on path one last night. It took three hours even though I know exactly what to do and even took time to explain things. There was more wrong than just the difficulty (ie. Kholer by himself ending up culled at least once because of the sheer amount of particle effects from two necros with wells, guardian symbols, marks, mesmer clones, etc), but the big problem is that you’re asking new players to play perfectly. If you miss a dodge, you die. If you miss Kholer’s sparkly hand, you die. If you miss getting out of the way of Howling King’s scream or lazer, you die. If you burn up all your endurance dodging and another graveling starts you on the chain-knockback, you die.

Obviously, each dungeon has a learning curve. Unless they experience things for themselves and problem solve in order to finish the dungeon, it will take a while to finish a path.

tl;dr:

I think the question you are trying to ask is “Can a group, regardless of level, complete an AC EXP path without ever experiencing it?”

In my opinion, the answer would be YES. It would just take the group longer than a group who is experienced.

But we will probably never know until actual experiments using brand new Lv 35s doing AC EXP for the first time are conducted.

I agree entirely that experience is more important than itemization. However with AC becoming so tough, where are new players going to gain experience?

The reality is there isn’t very much difference between a level35 and a level80. They changed the stats for down scaling a while ago. If a level80 can do it, a level35 can do it too. Weather or not someone new to the game can do it is another story.

Stooperdale.3560:

I agree entirely that experience is more important than itemization. However with AC becoming so tough, where are new players going to gain experience?

Well, there’s plenty of helpful video guides out there (i.e. Strife’s dungeon guides on youtube), and there’s quite a few people out there who are willing to teach others. I’ve seen plenty of new 80s hitting the CoF p1 + p2 chain, and many aren’t ashamed to ask for advice. I’ll gladly show them the ropes, especially if it means increasing the number of more experienced players in the pool of PuG dungeon runners.

If the new players are patient and want to put in the effort, they can also learn for themselves. My dungeon crew and I didn’t just magically learn the encounters — we went through trial and error, eventually getting the hang of it, back when there were no guides, speed clears, and all dungeons were new.

Xavori.3768:

Another way to look at the out-of-control difficulty of AC versus even Arah. You can solo Arah. It’s way, way hard, but doable. You cannot solo AC.

But I did.

Xavori.3768:

Another way to look at the out-of-control difficulty of AC versus even Arah. You can solo Arah. It’s way, way hard, but doable. You cannot solo AC.

Even if that was the case, would that mean that CoF1 is much harder than Arah2? You can solo Arah2 but you cannot solo CoF1.

You definitely didn’t do path 1 because of the burrows & hodgins. You definitely didn’t do path 2 because of the new boss design. Did you do path 3? Would seem hard to do the middle burrow part without any help.

I can’t stand the new AC. It’s “hard” but it’s not like how Arah is hard. It’s hard because it’s cheap. Spider Queen’s AoEs are ridiculously punishing and last far too long and the constant poison makes healing when you inevitably screw up hard. I’ve seen more people being pulled by Kholer now because there’s less attention on him thanks to his infinite ads and that’s no fun. All three bosses have damage that I consider way overtoned. Howling King spams Confusion more than any boss in the game, Ghost Eater does those ridiculous AoE Damage+Vulnerability fields that stack despite that he’s now a puzzle boss. Colossus is just untested garbage that almost every group refuses to fight normally (Grast needs to be made sessile, invulnerable, and actually function correctly or Colossus needs to not stack Defiant).

The reality is there isn’t very much difference between a level35 and a level80. They changed the stats for down scaling a while ago. If a level80 can do it, a level35 can do it too. Weather or not someone new to the game can do it is another story.

Disagreeing on 2 points.
Stats. While the stats are downscaled, people level 60 and higher have 3 sets of stats per equipment rather than 2.
Traits. Things like Altruistic Healing on the Guardian, Grenadier on the Engineer, Elementalist’s Cleansing Water, or the Thief’s Executioner (and those are just the Professions I’m familiar with) makes a huge difference in the output and utility of the class. Not having said traits makes a big difference.

I’m not an elitist, I did AC with 3 people less than Lv.50 two days ago. The run was mostly fine and the weakest link was a Lv.80 Signet Warrior rather than any of the lower levels. But there are notable disadvantages to running with players lower than Lv.80. Those factors can be made up by skill and experience of course, but it’s reckless to say that there are no advantages to being level 80 rather than level 35.

Another way to look at this…

Before the patch to AC, AC groups were a constant fixture on gw2lfg.com. You could always find groups, and you could find groups that were happy to bring completely new players along and help them level and have fun.

Now, there are usually no more than one or two listings for AC groups. In fact, right now there are more groups for everything but HotW (cuz underwater is hated) than AC. I think it’s pretty obvious that quite a few players no longer think AC is fun.

It’s that fun thing I care about. I don’t want new players going into AC AT ALL because a bad experience there, which is likely, might very well turn them off to running any dungeons. Contrast that with pre-patch where AC was a great way to introduce new players to dungeons. Right now, TA is where it’s at for ‘recruiting’ players to run dungeons (and in not at all surprising co-in-key-dinks, there are a bunch of listings for TA up right this second).

As far as I’m concerned, the devs confused ‘interesting’ with really hard (see also: new krait). If instead they come up with mechanics like Ghost Eater versus traps without Ghost Eater’s OP attacks, that would have been good. If instead of random fire circles that are only up some of the time during the Howling King fight, Hodgins put up fire circles that are always there, even if they moved around, and toned down HK’s attacks, that would have been good. And most importantly, if they hadn’t given practically every graveling knockdown/back so players didn’t get CC spammed, that would have been much, much better.