Guild Wars 2

Stacking behind a pillar makes it harder to see the only thing that wipes a group.

dlonie.6547:

You have had fantastic luck with your PUGs then, lmao

People can obviously fail it anyway. It’s not a dps issue.

Moving this rage to a more appropriate thread…

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The problem with Kholer is that he’s an optional boss in the middle of the AC dungeon, who causes more wipes than ANY of the other bosses in AC. So yes, his difficulty is disproportionate to the location he’s in. Unless you cheese his encounter by stacking behind a pillar, he’ll tear through most pugs with ease. And it would not surprise me if most beginners quit trying AC entirely after running into Kholer, and having their armor severely trashed.

IMO Kholer isn’t the problem, the problem is open-world PvE. Kholer’s “problem” is that he actually has mechanics that matter. Most players have never experienced anything of this sort before they get into AC.

Rather than make Kholer harder, I’d prefer to see more open-world encounters that help players build the skill and the level of attention that is needed for Kholer. Maybe some heart-quests that involve more than mindlessly killing trash?

Seriously, Kholer really only has one attack that does anything. Focus the adds, dodge/block/stabilize/reflect/etc his pull, and there’s nothing left. Even if he pulls you, it’s hard to die from the spin with a stunbreaker equipped.

Or just skip him, the little jumping puzzle skip in p3 isn’t even needed — you can just run past him and he’ll leash.

I’ve seen pugs be far more successful at beating Kholer by stacking behind a pillar, than without that cheesy strategy. That’s because you can stack buffs, healing, and maximize aoe potential when everything is just piled on top of each other. Plus it’s easy to help party members up if they are downed. It trivializes an otherwise challenging fight.

But the Kholer fight is not a good fight. I think his attack does way too much damage for the location he’s in, and for the level of the dungeon. Plus his harpoon attack isn’t half as visible as I would like it to be. He spams that attack too often, which leads to new players having their armors completely torn asunder. I don’t think that’s the sort of experience you want players to have on their first dungeon. Kholer would be much more suitable for a higher level dungeon, as a final boss (but with added mechanics perhaps).

You have to be able to see this encounter not as a pro, but as a new player. And for new players, it’s absolutely terrible. I do agree that nothing in open world PVE prepares players for this. I see this as a problem with both open world PVE and the dungeon in question. They should be in harmony, but right now there is an obvious and very large leap in difficulty.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The problem with AC is that while not a very difficult dungeon, it has some mechanics to it that are just very badly designed, and are very unforgiving to new players. These mechanics such the fun right out of the dungeon to anyone who ventures in there for the first time.

Most of the trash mobs are not so bad, and even the Spider Queen should be doable with half a decent team. But the burrows are still a DPS check. They are ridiculously easy if you spam icebows, and ridiculously hard without them. There’s no point where any npc informs you just what kind of DPS is required, nor are players provided with environmental weapons to take out the burrows. So in the end you have an encounter that is extremely unbalanced, and favors particular classes immensely. It can be like a walk in the park, if your party packs lots of icebows and Fiery Greatswords, and an armor grind without. It’s just not very well designed, and not any fun.

Kholer is a terrible boss. He’s mostly terrible because he’s in the wrong place in the dungeon. His difficulty is disproportionate to every other boss in AC, and he’s a stumbling block to many new players who assume he’s a mini boss. This leads to a high armor repair bill, and that just aint any fun.

The Patriarch on the other hand is a boss who scales really well. He obviously requires a bit of coordination, and a fair amount of DPS is still required (which I despise), but his mechanics are pretty solid.

Colossus Rumblus. I don’t like this boss. Too much knockdown spam and overpowered trash spawning. I hate being stuck in a CC-chain that instantly downs my character without any chance of escaping.

The howling king is alright as a boss.

We happily do daily dungeon tours without an ele on AC.

You don’t need ice bows or FGS. You quite literally just need gear with power main stat. Power secondary probably even works. That gives you 12 viable stat combinations for the burrows. If you still can’t kill the burrows then it’s not even a matter of DPS, it’s a problem on your end.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Kiting the gravelings is a pain. Mostly this is due to the aggro mechanics of the game being rather dodgy and unclear. It really feels like all graveling burrows sections were designed with specific classes or builds in mind. And that’s what gets inexperienced players. They head into the dungeon pretty confident, and for the most part they can easily clear most mobs. But then they run into these gimmicky encounters, and the experience turns sour and unpleasant.

I’ll give you that these encounters are absolutely trivialized by certain professions and builds, but they are doable by any class, maybe just not as quickly/easily. We just disagree on what’s a gimmick and what’s a mechanic :-) If dungeons weren’t brutal on inexperienced parties, they’d have absolutely zero replay value.

Dungeons take practice, and the issue is the PvE/open-world mindset that anything that takes a more than a couple tries needs a nerf. I know my first time in AC was a greasy horror show, but practice, practice, practice.

hendo.1940:

You don’t need ice bows or FGS. You quite literally just need gear with power main stat. Power secondary probably even works. That gives you 12 viable stat combinations for the burrows. If you still can’t kill the burrows then it’s not even a matter of DPS, it’s a problem on your end.

It really isn’t. If I go into AC with a random pug, and notice that my team can’t pull of the required DPS no matter how hard they try, I no longer blame the skill of the players, and start blaming the encounter.

I’ve done AC enough times to know by now just how much easier spamming Icebows and Fiery Greatswords make the burrows. I think it would be hard for anyone to claim otherwise. That’s because they quickly do a lot of damage, and don’t suffer from being “obstructed”. There’s clearly a balance problem when these two skills make such a huge difference in beating this encounter.

dlonie.6547:

I’ll give you that these encounters are absolutely trivialized by certain professions and builds, but they are doable by any class, maybe just not as quickly/easily.

This is true of large parts of AC, but obviously not of the burrows. If your party can’t pull off the required DPS, they never will, no matter how patient they are. And that’s my problem with it.

dlonie.6547:

If dungeons weren’t brutal on inexperienced parties, they’d have absolutely zero replay value.

I whole-heartedly disagree. Difficulty does not equal fun or replay value.

dlonie.6547:

Dungeons take practice, and the issue is the PvE/open-world mindset that anything that takes a more than a couple tries needs a nerf. I know my first time in AC was a greasy horror show, but practice, practice, practice.

No, I think this is not the problem. Very rarely have I encountered AC runs where my own personal skill felt too lacking to beat the encounter. Quite often I failed because my group as a whole kept failing at a specific gimmicky encounter. And they kept retrying, and retrying, but it didn’t feel like there was anything they were doing wrong, or could do differently. They just couldn’t keep an npc alive, or survive the onslaught of hundreds of gravelings, or they couldn’t bring down the burrows fast enough.

And such encounters revolve around a certain thing you need to do, which you are either able to do, or not. That’s why I call them gimmicks. They are obstructions due to a central, often annoying, concept. There are no lessons learned when going to the armor repair for the zillionth time, other than “avoid this dungeon, it’s not fun”.

RemiRome.8495:

Stacking behind a pillar makes it harder to see the only thing that wipes a group.

Ermagerd, I know. Everytime I see “stack” pop up in party chat at Kholer, I die a little inside >.<

dlonie.6547:

You have had fantastic luck with your PUGs then, lmao

People can obviously fail it anyway. It’s not a dps issue.

I do agree with ya — if DPS is too low, clear or kite the graveling. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

I always laugh at people who complain about armor repair builds. Its like 12 silver or similar. Pocket change. I call my repair bills idiot taxes, I have to pay when I’m an idiot.

AC is easy, even clerics can take out the burrows. If a pug is doing badly at the burrows because of dps its because they are either condition builds (as in bad) or a set that is somehow not condition and not power (also known at grade A suck). That right there means the encounter is a good training for players: Conditions suck and you should have power in your build.

It really isn’t. If I go into AC with a random pug, and notice that my team can’t pull of the required DPS no matter how hard they try, I no longer blame the skill of the players, and start blaming the encounter.
I’ve done AC enough times to know by now just how much easier spamming Icebows and Fiery Greatswords make the burrows. I think it would be hard for anyone to claim otherwise. That’s because they quickly do a lot of damage, and don’t suffer from being “obstructed”. There’s clearly a balance problem when these two skills make such a huge difference in beating this encounter.

No, it really is.

The reason pugs can’t do it is if they’re using condi builds on objects and/or don’t spread themselves out appropriately for the burrows to reach them in time.

It’s quite amusing that you can’t comprehend the idea that you and your pug groups might just lack skill, and you instead blame it on the game.

hendo.1940:

It really isn’t. If I go into AC with a random pug, and notice that my team can’t pull of the required DPS no matter how hard they try, I no longer blame the skill of the players, and start blaming the encounter.
I’ve done AC enough times to know by now just how much easier spamming Icebows and Fiery Greatswords make the burrows. I think it would be hard for anyone to claim otherwise. That’s because they quickly do a lot of damage, and don’t suffer from being “obstructed”. There’s clearly a balance problem when these two skills make such a huge difference in beating this encounter.

No, it really is.

The reason pugs can’t do it is if they’re using condi builds on objects and/or don’t spread themselves out appropriately for the burrows to reach them in time.

It’s quite amusing that you can’t comprehend the idea that you and your pug groups might just lack skill, and you instead blame it on the game.

lol, yeah. You can’t really base the difficulty of a dungeon based on how well pugs do. The vast majority of this player base is really, really bad.

In reality, AC is probably one of the easiest dungeons in the game.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’ve seen pugs be far more successful at beating Kholer by stacking behind a pillar, than without that cheesy strategy. That’s because you can stack buffs, healing, and maximize aoe potential when everything is just piled on top of each other. Plus it’s easy to help party members up if they are downed. It trivializes an otherwise challenging fight.

But when everyone is stacked and he spins, ashes-ashes-we-all-fall-down.

But the Kholer fight is not a good fight. I think his attack does way too much damage for the location he’s in, and for the level of the dungeon. Plus his harpoon attack isn’t half as visible as I would like it to be. He spams that attack too often, which leads to new players having their armors completely torn asunder.

???? There’s a 2-3 second wind up with an obvious animation (glowing animations and kitten) and he only does it maybe 5-6 times in the entire fight…

You have to be able to see this encounter not as a pro, but as a new player. And for new players, it’s absolutely terrible. I do agree that nothing in open world PVE prepares players for this. I see this as a problem with both open world PVE and the dungeon in question. They should be in harmony, but right now there is an obvious and very large leap in difficulty.

This is why I think it’s essential to learn dungeons from a guild or similar. The encounters are much easier to learn when someone who cares explains the fights. [ARES] on dragonbrand taught me pretty much all of the dungeons, and when I joined them it was night and day compared to pugging as a new player.

But seriously, removing the difficult elements destroys the fun of rerunning. If there’s nothing to improve on and learn from, the game gets old fast.

hendo.1940:

No, it really is.

The reason pugs can’t do it is if they’re using condi builds on objects and/or don’t spread themselves out appropriately for the burrows to reach them in time.

It’s quite amusing that you can’t comprehend the idea that you and your pug groups might just lack skill, and you instead blame it on the game.

That’s a really bad argument, and for shame. You expect new players to know that conditions as a whole suck in the entire game? You expect new players to all be running power and berserker builds?

The problem here is not that those pugs are not spread out enough, but that they can’t kill them fast enough. It’s a lack of DPS, pure and simple. And the likely reason for that, is that they aren’t running power builds. Why should they be running power builds? At what point does the dungeon inform the players that their conditions really aren’t of any use here, or anywhere else for that matter?

Surely that’s a flaw in the balance of the game itself? Unless you tell players to slot in a power build, you can’t expect players to know that a power build is required for a specific encounter. That’s just silly, and poor design.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If I go into AC with a random pug, and notice that my team can’t pull of the required DPS no matter how hard they try, I no longer blame the skill of the players, and start blaming the encounter.

This is what’s known as a “bad PUG”. If a PUG of bads can waltz through a dungeon, what’s the point?

This is true of large parts of AC, but obviously not of the burrows. If your party can’t pull off the required DPS, they never will, no matter how patient they are. And that’s my problem with it.

Clear or kite the gravelings then. Bad PUGs make you rethink strategies, that’s part of the fun in pugging.

Difficulty does not equal fun or replay value.

Nope — but it really isn’t that difficult. Like I said, he has one attack that is the most obviously telegraphed move in the game. It is hard at first to manage fighting the adds and watching Kholer, but that’s what he’s there to teach players.

Very rarely have I encountered AC runs where my own personal skill felt too lacking to beat the encounter. Quite often I failed because my group as a whole kept failing at a specific gimmicky encounter. And they kept retrying, and retrying, but it didn’t feel like there was anything they were doing wrong, or could do differently. They just couldn’t keep an npc alive, or survive the onslaught of hundreds of gravelings, or they couldn’t bring down the burrows fast enough.

hehe, yeah. If you’re gonna PUG, get used to this :-) If the PUG can’t pull it off, it’s good practice for teaching and having patience (or being a complete kitten for some obnoxious elitists, lol). If that’s not what you’re looking for, join a dungeon guild.

dlonie.6547:

But when everyone is stacked and he spins, ashes-ashes-we-all-fall-down.

Only a few, and then the rest picks them up again. He is unable to wipe the whole team instantly, which is the whole point. You don’t waste time running over to your fellow party members, and he can’t pull you anywhere, because you’re already on top of him. It really works wonders, you don’t even need to dodge anything to beat him this way.

dlonie.6547:

???? There’s a 2-3 second wind up with an obvious animation (glowing animations and kitten) and he only does it maybe 5-6 times in the entire fight…

Obvious to you, not so obvious to less experienced players. It’s a battle where players prefer to take cover or keep their distance from them, but that only makes it harder to see what he’s doing (especially with all the effect clutter). Plus, he doesn’t have an audio cue for his attack, and the harpoons really are quite small. A mini boss in the first dungeon of the game, should not insta-kill players with a move that pulls everyone in his range. Plus, he also seems to hit through obstacles, which is counter intuitive.

dlonie.6547:

But seriously, removing the difficult elements destroys the fun of rerunning. If there’s nothing to improve on and learn from, the game gets old fast.

Does it? I’ve done plenty of dungeons in GW1 that were pretty simple, yet remained fun none the less. I’d dare say nothing in Fissure of Woe in GW1 for example, is as deadly as Kholer. Yet there was plenty of challenge left to make it an enjoyable dungeon to farm over and over again.

And I’m not saying remove all the difficult elements. I’m saying, reevaluate if the difficulty is correct in every area of the dungeon, and if all the encounters are fair. I think they aren’t fair right now, and they’re not much fun.

Also, that annoying spike-filled corridor after the Spider Queen rubs me the wrong way too. Gimmicks, all of them.

You expect new players to all be running power and berserker builds?

12 stat combinations have power in them. Berserker isn’t even a factor here since burrows can’t be crit.

The problem here is not that those pugs are not spread out enough, but that they can’t kill them fast enough. It’s a lack of DPS, pure and simple. And the likely reason for that, is that they aren’t running power builds. Why should they be running power builds? At what point does the dungeon inform the players that their conditions really aren’t of any use here, or anywhere else for that matter?

The bit where you attack them and none of your conditions work. That is when you should think “I need power here”. It doesn’t take giant neon lights or “immune to conditions” on every single object’s description, you literally have to just look at the object and notice how none of your conditions are being applied to it.

Surely that’s a flaw in the balance of the game itself? Unless you tell players to slot in a power build, you can’t expect players to know that a power build is required for a specific encounter. That’s just silly, and poor design.

There is no flaw in the balance of the game here, it is condition users not paying attention to their condis not dealing damage on objects and demanding to be catered to, and pugs in general having poor technique in dealing with the burrows. All you need to do is like a 3/2 split, with one group starting on the middle burrow, and the other group covering the two other burrows as quickly as possible. This reduces the number of spawns to deal with and enables the other burrow spawns to appear quickly so that you can deal with them.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Also, that annoying spike-filled corridor after the Spider Queen rubs me the wrong way too. Gimmicks, all of them.

…
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can’t be serious
…
…
reads again
…
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sigh
…
…

I’m out.

Obviously we’re completely in disagreement here. And I don’t think we can convince each other otherwise. There is however another thing I haven’t touched upon, and that’s traps.

Oh boy, my first dungeon experiences in GW2 were really soured by the insta-kill traps. The annoying spikes after the Spider Queen, the two spiked rooms in CM, the bees in TA (Not the beeees!), the insta-kill bombs in CoF P3. I’m so glad that the designers realized just how annoying these are, and made many of the traps in Fractals a lot more forgiving (like the traps in the Cliffside fractal).

Most of these are still just as annoying and bad as they were on release, since they remain mostly unchanged (they did change the deathblossoms though). Obviously it’s going to take at least another year before the old dungeons get another make over. But I can’t wait till they change this as well. Those traps are not difficult, they are just a pain in the backside.

I’ve played a lot of Dungeons and Dragons Online, and traps are so much better in that game. There’s more variety for example, but there are also more ways to avoid them, or disable them (not to mention you can use your spot skill to detect them). DnD Online never surprises you out of the blue with an insta-kill trap, and it’s dungeons are better for it.

Edit: To clarify what I’m adressing:

[…]

AC is easy, even clerics can take out the burrows. If a pug is doing badly at the burrows because of dps its because they are either condition builds (as in bad) or a set that is somehow not condition and not power (also known at grade A suck). That right there means the encounter is a good training for players: Conditions suck and you should have power in your build.

Which honestly is a reason for me to keep advocating a rework of the condition system not only in regard to general problems it has but in regard to objects as well.
I’m aware this would require a ton of balancing, but for the love of god at least let them affect objects. Give those oojects a resistance to condition damage maybe like AR works against agony for all I care, but make them do something.

AC is flagged as a lvl 35 zone. Someone new to the game hitting a brick wall because he uses level appropriate condition (or whatever) gear because he has no notion about the direct damage problem yet is not a good variant of a training ground. It’s disheartening in the extreme in some cases.
I remember my first AC explorable experience a few weeks after launch. We had 2 condi-thieves, a healing power guardian, a dual bow spider/bear ranger and a twin dagger elementalist. Our levels ranged from 35 to mid fifties. Defending Hodgins was a nightmare. Granted the obstructed bug the burrows had at the time did its part, but back then we knew little to nothing about how useless healing power or conditions in many cases in pve were.
We beat the encounter after a lot of attempts but at least one of our thieves was like “never again”.
I don’t mind a steep learning curve or having to learn an encounter in order to beat it. But if the problem is hidden inside game mechanics opposed as to encounter mechanics, the learning can be a mite tricky.
That’s why I liked Kohler much better. Once you get the hang of the pull mechanic, you can beat him. It is an encounter mechanic. Not a game mechanic.

Mad Queen! Don’t talk about the bees! The very memory brings mist to my eyes. I miss TAFU so much!

There is no problem with the design of any of the dungeons, especially AC. What we have here is a mindset problem.

We, in our minds eye, are the best there ever was or at least not as terrible as this forum might lead us to believe. Nothing can beat us, I have accolades to prove it. I 100% map completed, I farm Orr, I run WvWvW successfully. What we have done here is reinforce the concept of “I am a good player” by doing content and completing it without much challenge.

Throughout our time doing content casually, we don’t learn how to overcome challenges because, quite simply, open world offers little challenge. Now, put ourselves in a situation that requires some skill and coordination and we fail. What is our first thought that goes through our mind?

1. “This is too hard”
or
2. “What did I do wrong and how can I do better?”

The first thought is indicative of the above mindset. “How could I fail at this when I am clearly good, I’ve done all these other things that prove I am good.” This mindset tries to rationalize why they failed by placing blame on an external entity (the content in this case). Obviously if I fail then the content is too hard and must need a nerf regardless if others are able to complete the same content.

The second though is indicative of a more healthy mindset that recognizes the shortcomings of itself and tries to rationalize the failure by looking inward and exploring for internal solutions to the problem.

Anet would never release content that is impossible it’s just not good business. Plain and simple as that.

tl;dr;
Some people just don’t have the mindset to succeed.

(Flame away)

Edit

@Tree, I love you.

I love you too.

Oh, and one final thing that might help explain our ability to reach any agreement: It seems you still think ANet cares what we think and might fix encounters/conditions/etc. Most of us have lost hope for this sort of thing. The dungeons have been ignored for a long time, there is clearly no communication between devs/players, and the few recent changes that have been made were not improvements.

The dungeons are the way they are, and it’s far less frustrating to just play them as they are than hope/wish/expect/lobby for changes.

That said, Alphard’s bomb is kittened. :-P

Silberfisch understand what I’m talking about clearly. And look, it’s not like I don’t like a challenge. I play Demons Souls and Dark Souls for crying out loud! You’ll never hear me complain about any of the traps in Sens Fortress, which is full of devious traps (which rarely insta-kill you). That’s a bad sign. When your traps are less forgiving than Dark Souls.

The problem with condition is however much worse. You can’t design an encounter in a level 35 dungeon entirely around the idea that players must do a certain amount of damage, or they all die. You literally hit a brick wall, because the game has broken mechanics, and only when you do dungeons do you find out just how broken they are. The design often does not take the big issues with the core mechanics into account.

This is why I get so ticked off by bosses that revolve around reflection. I don’t have reflection! I’m a necro! Where is the sign at the start of the dungeon that says, bring someone with reflection? That’s dumb design. Give us other ways to deal with all the projectiles being hurled our way then. But don’t design encounters with a specific build or class in mind. That goes right against the original philosophy of the game.

In GW1 there never was an encounter where you could not beat it, simply because you didn’t have enough damage output, or didn’t bring that one skill that is exclusive to one class only (with the exception maybe of Urgoz, who was clearly designed with Edge of Extinction in mind).

@Tree, I love you.

You can kill a burrow alone, whatever your profession if you build it right. And by right i mean that 75% of the build in the game work. Ice Bow and FGS work nicely with pugs, because they don’t have to make an effort. I always change my utilities when i get to the burrows, some of my friends change weapons, but pugs just keep going the same way everytime because the last time they did it, it worked like a charm (but they didn’t figure out that 2 people in the party did all the job for them). Ice Bow and FGS are super powerful here, but he back thing about it, is that they deny any learning for the pugs. They just keep doing that because they never tried another strategy and can’t see that they build don’t work there. If they failed without an Ele, they will said, well its because we don’t have an Ele. Its not our fault.

And for Kholer. The problem is not the encounter or his position. The only problem with Kholer is the reward he give. He give kitten, so most people, even those who can kill it, will skip it. When i started to do dungeon, i was always skipping kholer. But then i learned how and most people in the game learn how to kill him. He was easy, people knew how to beat it and he was rewarding so people wanted to kill him. But now, he give almost nothing, so most people don’t want to kill him, so nobody learn how to kill him. Make him drop some silver and a chest with a chance of rare and a month later most group will be killing him each time.

The game has enough hand holding, we don’t need even more stuff like tool tips telling you that things don’t work when somebody should be able to use basic reasoning skills and googlekittento find the solutions to such easy problems. L2Play and L2Search are legit suggestions and not condescending as people who receive such advice like to complain.

Thaddeus.4891:

And for Kholer. The problem is not the encounter or his position. The only problem with Kholer is the reward he give. He give kitten, so most people, even those who can kill it, will skip it.

In other words, his difficulty is not equal to the reward. Which means his difficulty should either be changed, or he should simply be moved to a different location.

Look, you can’t really keep dodging the issue: More people die to Kholer than any other boss in the dungeon. And Kholer is right at the middle of the dungeon. How does that make sense?

He’s in the wrong spot, clear and simple. I’m not saying AC can’t have a boss as “challenging” (in massive air quotes) as Kholer, but he’s not in the right location, and he gives a poor reward on top of that.

Why did you ignore my post which elaborated on the problem you and your pug had and offered a solution to the burrow event?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The problem with condition is however much worse. You can’t design an encounter in a level 35 dungeon entirely around the idea that players must do a certain amount of damage, or they all die. You literally hit a brick wall, because the game has broken mechanics, and only when you do dungeons do you find out just how broken they are.

You are right partially right on that. Player hit a wall there and they shouldn’t. AC is really hard for new players. CM, TA, SE, CoF and HotW are all fare more manageable for new players. AC is not hard, but you need a bit more requirement than several dungeon after it. Personnally, when i failed at AC a coupe times, i went for CM and TA and then get back to AC. Anet should really put AC as a higher level dungeon. But its not that big of a deal.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That’s a bad sign. When your traps are less forgiving than Dark Souls.

Really? These trap 2 shot you, and they are super easy to get through. I had no problem with them at all, when i started the game, and even new players in my guild have rarely have any problem with them. If these trap are too much for you, that says a lot about you.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

This is why I get so ticked off by bosses that revolve around reflection. I don’t have reflection! I’m a necro! Where is the sign at the start of the dungeon that says, bring someone with reflection? That’s dumb design. Give us other ways to deal with all the projectiles being hurled our way then.

I never use reflection on that encounter. You can use reflection, but you can also dodge, stability, block, invulnerable, evade, break stun. All profession have access to all, or some of those. So learn what work best for your profession and practice with that.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Look, you can’t really keep dodging the issue: More people die to Kholer than any other boss in the dungeon. And Kholer is right at the middle of the dungeon. How does that make sense?

He’s in the wrong spot, clear and simple. I’m not saying AC can’t have a boss as “challenging” (in massive air quotes) as Kholer, but he’s not in the right location, and he gives a poor reward on top of that.

What about the point that you’re missing: Kholer is optional. His location is irrelevant, just run past him if your PUG can’t handle it. He is definitely more difficult than the rest of the dungeon, but he’s a optional challenge for more skilled groups who choose to kill him.

Sure, it’s not obvious that he can be skipped the first time in an inexp group. But you know what the rest of us do when we hit a roadblock in a new dungeon run? this. What’s the first sentence in the first blurb?

hendo.1940:

Why did you ignore my post which elaborated on the problem you and your pug had and offered a solution to the burrow event?

Because he’s not here for advice. He’s here to whine.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Thaddeus.4891:

And for Kholer. The problem is not the encounter or his position. The only problem with Kholer is the reward he give. He give kitten, so most people, even those who can kill it, will skip it.

In other words, his difficulty is not equal to the reward. Which means his difficulty should either be changed, or he should simply be moved to a different location.

Look, you can’t really keep dodging the issue: More people die to Kholer than any other boss in the dungeon. And Kholer is right at the middle of the dungeon. How does that make sense?

He’s in the wrong spot, clear and simple. I’m not saying AC can’t have a boss as “challenging” (in massive air quotes) as Kholer, but he’s not in the right location, and he gives a poor reward on top of that.

I can’t even remember the last time a random pug group I was in actually bothered to fight Kholer. Hell the new to dungeons player at level 43 just followed the group past him (path 3). Path 1 you don’t even need to cut through, you can go around like he isn’t even there.

The good groups I’ve been in are about 25/75 on killing him. He is worth a champ bag, so with the right group you just stack and slap for 20 seconds and get your bag just like the FG train farmers. He is a pointless fight if you don’t value the random trash bags that champs drop. Yipee a bag of blue/green stuff and a couple of silver. Put in karma vials and I’ll fight him.

As for more people dying to kholer… Well lets count bosses: Spider, Kholer, Troll, final. Yeah, I see more wipes at spider than Kholer. Hell I see more deaths trying to run the last bit of path 1 than I see at Kholer.

You know one thing about Kholer about that sets him apart from the other bosses in AC? He’s skippable.

New players don’t know that? They’ll learn. I simply don’t agree that there’s a need to change anything about Kholer.

hendo.1940:

Why did you ignore my post which elaborated on the problem you and your pug had and offered a solution to the burrow event?

I’m sorry, did you feel I wasn’t posting enough in the thread already? I’m sorry if there’s one post I did not reply to.

But I wasn’t asking for a solution. I’m merely here to explain how new players struggle with this dungeon, and pointing out the flaws of the dungeon that many experienced players have grown blind to. I personally do not need instructions for the dungeon, I’ve cleared it plenty of times already.

dlonie.6547:

Because he’s not here for advice. He’s here to whine.

I swear, that troll just pops up out of nowhere sometimes. Kite it to Kholer, kite it to Kholer!

Lindbur.2537:

You know one thing about Kholer about that sets him apart from the other bosses in AC? He’s skippable.

New players don’t know that? They’ll learn. I simply don’t agree that there’s a need to change anything about Kholer.

Thank Grenth he IS optional. Does that change anything about the fact that he’s harder than any of the other bosses? It’s still pretty indefensible. Many new players run into this guy, expecting a mini boss, not the hardest boss in the dungeon. Doesn’t matter if he’s optional. It ruins the experience to have your armor repeatedly trashed by this guy.

I’m extremely pleased in posting in this thread now that it has turned into a “ohgod Kholer is too hard and is kicking my kitten everytime” parade. That boss is intentionally put there to teach you how to see a telegraphed, deadly attack and dodge it. He does his work amazingly well in mauling your kitten until you learn to dodge, and I’m proud of saying that, as a level 35 scrub in blues – first week into the game, I beat him after 30 mins of trying. It felt like a great achievement. That was the first step to becoming a decent player, being able to read attacks.
Didn’t mean to interrupt the tirade of cries and tears, complain away.
Thanks, Kholer.

Thaddeus.4891:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That’s a bad sign. When your traps are less forgiving than Dark Souls.

Really? These trap 2 shot you, and they are super easy to get through. I had no problem with them at all, when i started the game, and even new players in my guild have rarely have any problem with them. If these trap are too much for you, that says a lot about you.

Have you played Sens Fortress? How about you go watch this video right now, and then come back and apologize. I have no problem with the traps in Sens Fortress, but the ones in GW2 are downright unfair and unfun.

Thaddeus.4891:

I never use reflection on that encounter. You can use reflection, but you can also dodge, stability, block, invulnerable, evade, break stun. All profession have access to all, or some of those. So learn what work best for your profession and practice with that.

I wasn’t talking about any of the encounters in AC here. I was referring to the golem boss in CM, and the golem bosses in SE.

deSade.9437:

I’m extremely pleased in posting in this thread now that it has turned into a “ohgod Kholer is too hard and is kicking my kitten everytime” parade.

As soon as someone points out that Kholer is disproportionately hard for the dungeon he is in, and the location he is, people immediately jump on the “cry some more” bandwagon. But I’m not crying or whining about his difficulty. In fact, I’m fine with a boss of his difficulty and design being in the game. But what I’m critical of, is where they chose to put him. He should not be halfway in the first dungeon of the game.

notabot.3497:

The good groups I’ve been in are about 25/75 on killing him. He is worth a champ bag, so with the right group you just stack and slap for 20 seconds and get your bag just like the FG train farmers. He is a pointless fight if you don’t value the random trash bags that champs drop. Yipee a bag of blue/green stuff and a couple of silver. Put in karma vials and I’ll fight him.

Karma would be an awesome incentive. If he’d drop dragonite AC would be CoF from the pre-reward-patch days.

As for more people dying to kholer… Well lets count bosses: Spider, Kholer, Troll, final. Yeah, I see more wipes at spider than Kholer. Hell I see more deaths trying to run the last bit of path 1 than I see at Kholer.

This.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

dlonie.6547:

Because he’s not here for advice. He’s here to whine.

I swear, that troll just pops up out of nowhere sometimes. Kite it to Kholer, kite it to Kholer!

Well played — I’ll do my best to get him to 75% in fifteen minutes. :-)

Many new players run into this guy, expecting a mini boss, not the hardest boss in the dungeon.

….and then they learn. Jebus, do you not expect to die your first time in a dungeon?

Doesn’t matter if he’s optional. It ruins the experience to have your armor repeatedly trashed by this guy.

Read that back to yourself, and you’ll understand why we’re all starting to think that you’re the troll…

If not trolling, have you been in Arah yet? I’d love to hear your thoughts on Lupi/Alphard/Belka/etc. They are far more difficult that Kholer (appropriately, as it is the end dungeon), but that’s why we need more Kholers to help players prepare for them.

deSade.9437:

I’m extremely pleased in posting in this thread now that it has turned into a “ohgod Kholer is too hard and is kicking my kitten everytime” parade. That boss is intentionally put there to teach you how to see a telegraphed, deadly attack and dodge it. He does his work amazingly well in mauling your kitten until you learn to dodge, and I’m proud of saying that, as a level 35 scrub in blues – first week into the game, I beat him after 30 mins of trying. It felt like a great achievement. That was the first step to becoming a decent player, being able to read attacks.
Didn’t mean to interrupt the tirade of cries and tears, complain away.
Thanks, Kholer.

Move over, Tree, I have a new hero.

And to reiterate — if he is kicking your kitten , you can go around him. What’s to nerf?

dlonie.6547:

but that’s why we need more Kholers to help players prepare for them.

And now i’m imagining a whole hallway full of kholers. QUICK, PUT UP A WoR AND STAND IN IT EVERYONE.

Kholer is pretty much Alphard with training wheels and a crutch available.
Kholer doesn’t one shot you, Alphard does. Getting pulled by Kholer isn’t a death sentence, you can survive if you dodge the moment you regain control after he pulls you.

dlonie.6547:

….and then they learn. Jebus, do you not expect to die your first time in a dungeon?

I do not expect to have so much difficulty with a mini boss halfway into the first dungeon of the game. Nowadays I just avoid Kholer. Not because he is hard, but because the rewards are poor, and I know that most pugs still get trashed by him half of the time.

For the record, I’ve never been in a pug that had any difficulty with the Spider Queen, especially when stacking.

dlonie.6547:

Read that back to yourself, and you’ll understand why we’re all starting to think that you’re the troll…

Do you seriously want to tell me that you’ve never been in pugs that repeatedly got wiped by Kholer? I have, a great many times.

dlonie.6547:

If not trolling, have you been in Arah yet? I’d love to hear your thoughts on Lupi/Alphard/Belka/etc. They are far more difficult that Kholer (appropriately, as it is the end dungeon), but that’s why we need more Kholers to help players prepare for them.

I like some of the boss encounters in Arah. Lupi is a great boss, but again, I don’t like his tell for the grubs. But he’s a good boss fight with solid mechanics, and one of the few bosses in the game that is purely skill based. No cheap gimmicks, just a straight up good boss fight, with multiple phases.

I dislike some of the gimmicky obstacles in some of the Arah paths, which is why I avoid Arah like the plague. I don’t really have an opinion on Alphard or Belka.

Ephemeral.5409:

dlonie.6547:

but that’s why we need more Kholers to help players prepare for them.

And now i’m imagining a whole hallway full of kholers. QUICK, PUT UP A WoR AND STAND IN IT EVERYONE.

hehehehehehe :-)

New patch note:

Replace graveling spawns from burrows with Kholers for QQ purposes.

dlonie.6547:

reiterate — if he is kicking your kitten , you can go around him. What’s to nerf?

No one is talking about nerfing Kholer. At least I wasn’t, and neither were any of the other posters.

dlonie.6547:

New patch note:

Replace graveling spawns from burrows with Kholers for QQ purposes.

+ While running bombs to a door!

dlonie.6547:

Ephemeral.5409:

dlonie.6547:

but that’s why we need more Kholers to help players prepare for them.

And now i’m imagining a whole hallway full of kholers. QUICK, PUT UP A WoR AND STAND IN IT EVERYONE.

hehehehehehe :-)

New patch note:

Replace graveling spawns from burrows with Kholers for QQ purposes.

You just gave me an idea.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

dlonie.6547:

Read that back to yourself, and you’ll understand why we’re all starting to think that you’re the troll…

Do you seriously want to tell me that you’ve never been in pugs that repeatedly got wiped by Kholer? I have, a great many times.

Sure, that’s why I don’t pug unless I’m in the mood for it. When it happens, I explain the fight, and if all else fails, I show them how to skip. I certainly don’t QQ over 10s in repair fees. #PugLife

dlonie.6547:

If not trolling, have you been in Arah yet? I’d love to hear your thoughts on Lupi/Alphard/Belka/etc. They are far more difficult that Kholer (appropriately, as it is the end dungeon), but that’s why we need more Kholers to help players prepare for them.

I like some of the boss encounters in Arah. Lupi is a great boss, but again, I don’t like his tell for the grubs. But he’s a good boss fight with solid mechanics, and one of the few bosses in the game that is purely skill based. No cheap gimmicks, just a straight up good boss fight, with multiple phases.

I dislike some of the gimmicky obstacles in some of the Arah paths, which is why I avoid Arah like the plague. I don’t really have an opinion on Alphard or Belka.

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but it sounds like dungeons in this game are not for you. At this point, you’ve called practically every mechanic in the game a gimmick.

I like some of the boss encounters in Arah. Lupi is a great boss, but again, I don’t like his tell for the grubs. But he’s a good boss fight with solid mechanics, and one of the few bosses in the game that is purely skill based. No cheap gimmicks, just a straight up good boss fight, with multiple phases.

Lupi is a great boss, but again, I don’t like his tell for the grubs. But he’s a good boss fight with solid mechanics, and one of the few bosses in the game that is purely skill based.

Lupi is a great boss, but again, I don’t like his tell for the grubs.

I don’t like his tell for the grubs.

Oh, I know. It is pretty fast and hard to notice.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

dlonie.6547:

reiterate — if he is kicking your kitten , you can go around him. What’s to nerf?

No one is talking about nerfing Kholer. At least I wasn’t, and neither were any of the other posters.

dlonie.6547:

New patch note:

Replace graveling spawns from burrows with Kholers for QQ purposes.

+ While running bombs to a door!

Dear god, I hope there are no devs reading this.

Hehe, I made myself laugh

dlonie.6547:

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but it sounds like dungeons in this game are not for you. At this point, you’ve called practically every mechanic in the game a gimmick.

You are almost correct. I dislike all the dungeons that were in the initial release of the game. But I do enjoy Fractals, the Molten Facility, and the Aetherblade dungeon. I think the designers improved their design a lot. But the original dungeons are sloppy, linear and annoying. They were clearly rushed to meet deadlines. This is especially obvious in AC, since it’s lay out seems to hint that it was originally intended to be a far less linear dungeon.

dlonie.6547:

Oh, I know. It is pretty fast and hard to notice.

It’s not so much seeing the tell, as understanding that him raising his arm is related to him spawning a grub directly on top of you. There’s not really a clear attack that hits you, it just does if you fail to dodge. That’s what I dislike about it, and could be improved. It’s poorly communicated, and something that I would have designed differently. I’ve personally never designed a boss that had attacks that left a player wondering why they got hit. Which makes me wonder why Anets designers aren’t better at it. It’s not that hard. Maybe it’s poor direction or quality control. I don’t know.

Everything else about Lupi is just fine, but there’s always room for improvement.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

dlonie.6547:

Oh, I know. It is pretty fast and hard to notice.

It’s not so much seeing the tell, as understanding that him raising his arm is related to him spawning a grub directly on top of you. There’s not really a clear attack that hits you, it just does if you fail to dodge. That’s what I dislike about it, and could be improved. It’s poorly communicated, and something that I would have designed differently. I’ve personally never designed a boss that had attacks that left a player wondering why they got hit. Which makes me wonder why Anets designers aren’t better at it. It’s not that hard. Maybe it’s poor direction or quality control. I don’t know.

I’ll give you that one. That’s why the first question I ask in an Arah PUG is “does everyone know Lupi?” I’m so tired of explaining that fight :-P

It’d be great if they’d have thought to explain things a little better, but they didn’t and from every indication, won’t. That’s just the way dungeons are in this game — gotta do some research or have a mentor if you want to learn to run them well.

dlonie.6547:

Ephemeral.5409:

dlonie.6547:

but that’s why we need more Kholers to help players prepare for them.

And now i’m imagining a whole hallway full of kholers. QUICK, PUT UP A WoR AND STAND IN IT EVERYONE.

hehehehehehe :-)

New patch note:

Replace graveling spawns from burrows with Kholers for QQ purposes.

Please, I so want this.

dlonie.6547:

I’ll give you that one. That’s why the first question I ask in an Arah PUG is “does everyone know Lupi?” I’m so tired of explaining that fight :-P

It’d be great if they’d have thought to explain things a little better, but they didn’t and from every indication, won’t. That’s just the way dungeons are in this game — gotta do some research or have a mentor if you want to learn to run them well.

I think a lot of people have trouble understanding that I’m looking at the game from the point of view of a game designer. I see flaws in the design that might not bother other people quite so much, or not at all.

One of the things I really liked about the Molten Facility, is how the mechanics of the boss are woven into the entire dungeon. Everything leading up to it teaches you what you need to know to tackle the bosses. The Scarlet battle follows this same design philosophy, by teaching players that they need to attune to different colors, in order to harm the knights. And by making the triple attunement a requirement for entering the final battle, everyone knows what they need to before fighting Scarlet.

More dungeons should be like that. They should not require a mentor or a youtube video to understand. They should be designed in a way that they teach the player the mechanics naturally and gradually.

Another example is the Cliffside fractal. The entire fractal revolves around using the hammer to break seals. So when the boss involves this exact same mechanic, it no longer needs explaining. That is solid design in my opinion.