Guild Wars 2

GW2 has many things going for it but not the Dungeons.

Before I say things that may seem like speaking without respect to the Hardcore player base and developers a brief intro would work well right about now.

I use my name Axe, Axel, Axeom etc in every mmo I played for the past 9 yrs. I am an all kinds of player. From 15 hrs a day to 25 minutes a day craft and log off depending on my life situation transitioning from Bachelor’s Degree to masters and now job. So yes I believe I can give a reasonable feedback as to what Dungeons are for me and after 9yrs shifting through all the AAA mmo’s and various f2p ones I can provide sufficient reasoning as to why I think the Dungeons in this game are absolutely horrendous when assessed with a couple of things in mind.

The factors are:

1. Time spent compare to gains over that time period or small to large gain at the end of time period. Gains being essential Im sure most understand or the point of investing said time would be a total waste. So gains could be in various forms such as constant flow of loot, or eventual encounter based loots from bosses or mini bosses or large/rare loot from end bosses. Well I wasn’t able to tell very well as to how good the loot system is with my 3 attempts at the dungeons which I failed MISERABLY 2 times but the loot is not very good in the dungeons. They lack motivation simply put.

The dungeons feel rough because of the wipes mostly and how difficult to diagnose the systems can be. The feel right now is too much time is being spent for barely any reward or satisfaction. Im doing a dungeon because I know there’s a chest somewhere and the mob drops will be better than the ones in the surface and maybe I’ll lvl up faster. So we have this system in every mmo where:

We have A SPECIAL REWARD for those who face THE DUNGEONSSSS etc etc but are you willing to face the challenge? This is the typical scenario in all mmos. Dungeons are a special place where you can lvl faster, get better lootzzz etc etc but you have to sacrifice something in return. Generally some of your time, some resources like potions etc and most importantly concentration level and team work or lets say game play skill. The better co-ordinated the team the better you’ll do . But this so called game play skill and co-ordination depends strongly on the Developers set mob hp, mob dmg, boss hp etc and the inherent game systems which I believe atm are not working too well. Time spent is atm not equal to anything worth gaining. The joy is missing and player control over team co-ordination is quite missing too. Will explain in my next point.

2. Coming to the point I made above as to why I failed MISERABLY in the dungeon AC is because partly me not being able to interpret current game systems very well and secondly the system being too rough or very theoretically sound but not very practical. You see the game has dodge, no specific roles in the trinity and dodge being there means timing of many things including positioning yourself in this game is very very important. Now in Dungeons DODGE FAILS and so does the systems in it. Now ppl may say Im talking out of my kitten but lemme say that not everyone out there is uber geared, can dodge all the 7 mobs attacking you at the same time when you only have 2 dodges and have absolutely full control. The Dungeons aren’t balanced simply put. The mob dmg is too high, some single mobs do ridiculous dmg and throws off the party quite quickly and with the new no res-rush the only way that I somehow managed to finish a Dungeon once is now gone.
In theory all games work and don’t work and this is literally for all games out there. Everything is highly revolving around risk and someones good understanding on interactive feedback and that person applies this understanding into the gameplay.

Trinity system existed to allow this interactivity which provides more (not full) control to the player. For eg: You have a tank that will taking bashing and his units will go down. A player who has the right power will protect the tanks health units and restore it. A constant interactivity here. Health goes and comes back. Dps players go in and support dmg the tank. There is quite a lot of control given to the player because teh players now decide if they do well, heal well, dmg fast, tank well, move the boss around the room ? or basically use these control mechanics to play to their strengths. The tank always knew in the back of his/her mind that there is a healer so I wont worry about self preservation but in this game NOOOO. Im always worried about myself.

In GW2’s case the control here is dodge and maybe a combination of skills with other players. The difficulty curve is so much higher because there is no simple system given to us the gamers to be able to revolve our mind around. We now have so many theoretical scenarios that its quite overwhelming. The design here kind of fails because each player now can take quite a beating and have to fend for themselves as they KNOW that there is no HEALER or TANK to back them up so in mid action everyone suddenly becomes self preservative and interestingly the battles actually are kind of tailored to that. thats why ppl died off one by one and res-rushed the boss. I wont go into specifics of the systems that fail quite badly but you guys probably know what Im talking about.

3. Im not the pro here who understands every mechanic or interactivity of how players would react in general or utilise skills etc . i have done no consumer research but from my own experience in other games with and without a trinity system. Some purely survival games etc I must say this game’s Dungeons dont FEEL right. I said feel because again I could be specific about every element that might be need tweaking but those tweaked aspects may never work well together. I’ve always teleported to the area and never felt like forming a group and stepping in after my fail attempts.

Usually dungeons have slow curve taking you through it as you go. Here as theres no trinity system, since the beginning we are bashed into the dungeons and not forgiven even a little bit. I am speaking for casual players out there because everyone starts out casual and end up being casuals- who- think- they’re- hardcore. In my years theres no hardcore just someone who remembers dungeons better and has seen many possible scenarios and has good control of his/her skills and can predict other players. Again without the trinity system this prediction meter is non existent. We cant tell who has a heal spell not on cool down and can use it at this time. Who has a stun that could use right about now. There are no roles and every kinda does everything and everyone tries to protect themselves and of course if you have an aoe you will spam it whether to protect or destroy. This extremely trial and error system makes it feel as if there will only be one way of doing the dungeons and that’s when some group somewhere figures it out and then there will be that set of classes with that particular set of skills with a minimum required gear lvl who can actually have a chance at completion..

The trinity system also needs gear etc but it provides more systematic control or easy to understand control. Control that you cant control is not control. Basically freedom is not control. Here very player has full control of each class in the trinity sytem within themselves but they can never predict who will do what when unless the have been pre-informed. So there can never be a player ‘who says ok today im gonna heal well and dmg quietly too without anybody knowing and heal at the same time, im just that good etc etc’ Now we have players saying ok this the way we have to do it, there is not other way, when my skill is ready I will spam it according to the youtube guide.

Suddenly its not a very engaging game anymore.

I am unable to provide accurate feedback as to what needs to be done with this system because free of trinity its quite daunting and only you, the devs know what you are doing. this trinity free system is quite heavily dependent on how you tweak the mobs and our dmg etc. In a trinity system there are times an overwhelming boss which you are a bit under leveled to do but still manage to beat it because of careful heal timing, tank skills and maybe some external resources like pots etc.

Here its quite unpredictable without this control an tbh its not very fun atm. Its a chore. After 9yrs many things feel like a chore but Dungeons here are definitely a chore. Trust me on that.

Basically this is what I feel of the dungeons atm. I will make some attempts and see where things are going wrong. Today probably will look into it taking everything in very slowly and see class by class how it does.

• This game isn’t like others MMO, thanks for that
• You can’t speak after doing 3 fail attempts at dungeoning
• I think you lack proper understanding of GW2 base mecanics.
• Don’t want to sound rude but you’ll have to learn to play. GW2 that is. It’s different, it’s personnal survavibility combined with group performance.

I feel sorry if you don’t like it, I was somehow like you at first, even though I was a little less affirmative. But i’ve learned to understand how this game works -differently-, and it’s all good to me.

I understand I cant speak in full detail after 3 attempts that’s why Its only this long. My feedback generally can go up to 20 pages XD

I am going to try out more, this is an initial feedback and why I put this now is because I can see this with fresh eyes without having to bend myself to a system. In most games the learning curve allow you to slowly adapt and then you’re set to play within the game systems. Here th curve is quite steep and this initial understanding is quite important so as I keep figuring out I can deduce what is actually the problem.

No mmo have I felt a steep curve except Eve online in general and this dungeons for the first time ever. Even my first mmo I picked up the systems quite smoothly and was ecouraged to go back to it quite quickly. This again is just my initial feedback.

I love the game but the Dungeons discourage

So let me get this straight. You failed a whopping three times in the easiest dungeon in the game, therefore all dungeons are bad?

Yeah, no.

what a lot of people miss seems to be that classes can work VERY WELL together if they just understood the mechanics a bit better. Combo fields and finishers can create some amazing gameplay if folks are just willing to learn and work together. For example your ele can put down a water field and then your guardian can do hammer bash in it, then your mesmer her use her stealth skill in it and you can heal the entire party.

A thief can put down a smoke field and you can all leap through it for stealth. A guardian can put down a fire field and everyone can do blast finishers in it for, I kitten you not, 25 stacks of might for 20 seconds straight!

an ele can put down a water field and a whirly warrior can whirl through it to heal players with its bolts. A thief can put down a poison field and others can fire and blast through it to poison the enemy and weaken them at the same time.

The potential for working well together is totally there, sadly players just don’t know about it. The other day in Honour of the waves, I tried to show players how to do the 25 stacks of might thing for quickly taking down strong enemies. and 2 of the three players said they didn’t even know you could combine skills like that.

The new daily was a good idea at teaching the players about combos, sadly it was buggy. but i thought it was a really good idea none the less to teach classes how they can work together.

Iehova.9518:

So let me get this straight. You failed a whopping three times in the easiest dungeon in the game, therefore all dungeons are bad?

Yeah, no.

I dont need 10 attempts to assess whether its great or not. Its not my first mmo and I have pretty good control of what I do in game. When I commit I learn quite quickly.

This is not like Battlefield 3 where some noob dies in few hits and whines. I used to get killed a lot in BF3 but I knew it was completely my fault and that other players a re skilled. I gave it time and 35 hrs later Im pretty good at it. Top 3 finishers

But here, I know its not my fault alone thats why I mentioned in the beginning itself that its partly my lack of interpreting game systems and partly the systems itself.

I believe I am quite experienced in mmos and anyone who’s played long enough can tell a game within 3 attempts for sure. You dont need to go on and on and make sure you somehow like it.

And also like I said its not the end and final judgement, will look into it for the problems. I know many don’t do dungeons. In my guild ppl talk about not doing it for several reasons and you see why we have posts like these for again several reasons. Im just going to look into whats going wrong that’s all.

Also it is essential that I make an honest judgement wihtout your condescending remark because theres a majority of casual players out there and some long term players like me out there who dont have enough time due to job, work, home time etc Im 26 not married but still have loads to do. Ppl my age will have to decide whether to play or not. Time is of value that’s all. 20 attempts will only make me understand how to work around whats broken or somehow figure out how to play it.

For these ppl a good and bad game is one bad attempt away. Im being very very practical here.

You cannot possibly make a statement about dungeon quality without being DM.

Good day sir.

Personally I think a big problem is that the game doesn’t teach the combos to players anywhere. They need to make some easy events that can only be done by combos to get the players to see what’s possible, because right now no one will figure it out unless they read on the wiki, and then it’s still rather hard to get random people to to try and learn it.

Last patch they made story-modes easier which is a step in the right direction. I agree first few dungeons are extremely harsh when you are used to open-PvE enemies.
But truth is, 3 attempts mean nothing. If you wish to improve your game-play you should let us know your class and what encounter is particularly causing issues (but complaining is probably more fun).

Ruan Jacobz.1398:

Personally I think a big problem is that the game doesn’t teach the combos to players anywhere. They need to make some easy events that can only be done by combos to get the players to see what’s possible, because right now no one will figure it out unless they read on the wiki, and then it’s still rather hard to get random people to to try and learn it.

Yep it is kinda hard to get random ppl to do the combos

I love when my AH/Hammer Guardian has a Ranger or Ele in the party and I don’t see a single blast heal field anywhere but in the back – not to mention the lack of heals I get from AH with the rest of the party also being in the back and no where near me.

relevant to 99% of people you’ll see playing those jobs.

You are right by saying that dungeons are hard, when compared to regular PvE.

Not only you have to rely more on dodge and pay more attention on monsters attack, you also have to rely and help your teammates.
And helping teammates is where a lot of players new to dungeons (or bad at them) fail.

They think that going full support is helping, that constantly being a water elementalist is helping, but it’s not and far from it.
Monsters (trash and veterans) need to be eliminated rather quickly because of their numbers and their strength. If you let the fight drag on, you are putting yourself in danger. During those encounters, you’ll be of more help if you kill monsters instead of trying to make green bars go up.

Helping your team is done by removing conditions, giving boons, placing anti projectiles or hindering enemies.

For bosses you face a single enemy (except some rare cases). That’s where going full berserker might be a bad idea if you aren’t responsive enough because the bosses have a stupidly high amount of health so your chances of dying are higher due to the length of the fight.

What profession are you playing ? I hope it’s not an Elementalist and I hope it’s a Guardian or a Warrior because they are easier to play with for newer player, while a majority of Elementalist are horrible.

The problem is you’re not as good as other people. Now, because you’re not as good (bad enough even of not finish the dungeon), should the dungeon be nerfed down to you’re skill lvl? I have a fairly large group of friends who do AC all the time. On our first set of run when we all bring 80’s, we can do all three paths in less than 30m. After that, 2-3 usually brings alts and all three paths usually about 45-50. You need to just find a group of people and refine your party strategy and makeup. This is just a L2P issue. AC is the easiest dungeon no QQ allowed…

1) Are you running with a decent amount of survivability? Ignoring defensive stats and traits is a common mistake made by people who are used to playing games where only the tank classes need survivability and everyone else just needs to maximize their damage output. That is not how GW2 is designed. For the most part, everyone is responsible for their own survival – you are SUPPOSED to be worrying about yourself. You can’t hide behind an immortal meat shield while a healer tirelessly works to keep your health at 100%. Some classes excel at support, but they can’t single-handedly keep you alive throughout the entire dungeon.

Full DPS (also known as glass cannon) builds are usually terrible for dungeons unless you are very experienced. You will have an easier time in dungeons if you can take a hit without instantly dying.

2) Do you know what your profession’s damage mitigation skills are? Every profession has some skill that allows them to block attacks, become invulnerable, break stun, etc. Equip your “oh crap” buttons and be ready to pop them when you get in trouble.

3) Are you trying to melee mobs that are melee-unfriendly? Many dungeon mobs in GW2 simply hit too hard to be melee’d or have other abilities that make melee impossible.

If you are going into dungeons without a scrap of toughness or vitality on your character, no damage mitigation abilities equipped, and you’re mindlessly throwing yourself into the jaws of every mob you see, then yes, you are going to die horribly.

Yes, GW2 dungeons are harder and more demanding than dungeons in other MMOs, and the difference in difficulty can be shocking at first, but you will quickly get used to them. They are really not that difficult if you play sensibly.

jimminy jillikers batman thats a wall of text… i felt the same way when i first started out, never thought i’d touch dungeons again. now i can see i just didn’t understand the way this game expects you to play them, not that i necessarily think they are “great” in their current state.

Churchill.8714:

I love when my AH/Hammer Guardian has a Ranger or Ele in the party and I don’t see a single blast heal field anywhere but in the back – not to mention the lack of heals I get from AH with the rest of the party also being in the back and no where near me.

relevant to 99% of people you’ll see playing those jobs.

I used to play Ele and Guardian switching between the two. Nowadays I’ve gone solo and dont do dungeons. Started a thief recently.

@Axeom,

you should probably read this.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/The-biggest-problem-with-Dungeons/first#post347757

Churchill.8714:

I love when my AH/Hammer Guardian has a Ranger or Ele in the party and I don’t see a single blast heal field anywhere but in the back – not to mention the lack of heals I get from AH with the rest of the party also being in the back and no where near me.

relevant to 99% of people you’ll see playing those jobs.

The less than a handful of runs I made with my Ranger I always made it a point to run forward into the melee area to drop a healing spring for the melee dudes. Heck its one of the few things that Rangers can bring to the party to help the group.

First rant after the dungeon nerf that is saying dungeons are still 2 hard.Cant believe it !
When sir did u start playing this game?
And how long are u playing it?
Cuz of 2 days ago instances got alot easyer than they were.
Tyvm

This is the first dungeon in the easy mode in the first room.

Probably 50 downs in this span. That isn’t how you invite people in.

I’m going to have to see what kind of leeway I have for getting the team I play with using builds the way the game makes me.

Anet decreased difficulty level before the launch so your video is quite invalid.

haviz.1340:

Anet decreased difficulty level before the launch so your video is quite invalid.

It plays out like that in our group unfortunately to this day. Sure it may have been nerfed, but not that much.

“Bad Dungeons in a good game”

This is worded perfectly and is exactly how i feel at times.

Dungeon Pros:
- In general fractals are better in this game than the original dungeons
- In general the dungeons in the game are beautiful to look at

Dungeon Cons:
- Dungeon Mobs should only leash when it is a specific designed mechanic of the dungeon. Otherwise leashing mobs is poor dungeon design and exploitable.
-Mechanics that try too hard to compensate for the lack of the holy trinity
- Aggro tables that make no sense at times
- Encounters with bosses are almost always range friendly and melee non friendly, melee always tends to be at a disadvantage