Guild Wars 2

Because the previous topic about actualy fixing dungeon reward for everyone to benefit from their way of running an instance has been shut down due to ‘’angry topic OP’’ im making another hoping people intend to talk it out.

Heres the current issue, speedrunning versus doing the dungeon vannila helds up more reward at the end. While it is not in theory a bad thing lot of people feels frustrated if not penalised that the system does not reward them actualy doing fights one by one as dungeons would normaly be intended as,

Please take note i am in no way suggesting that every dungeon is unbalanced however many spot are speedrunned that normaly should not due either to a glitch or a lack of path blocking. Ill point out 2 defrent location.

1. Citadel of Flame path one
Post first boss there is a bridge with a champion level firestorm shaman wich triggers a nice cinematic. Clearly that minibosses isnt meant to be ignored yet we simply put rush straith trought it and ignore everything to go save the caged enginer.

2. Arah many path
While many area in arah where clearly meant to be ran trought player just dont bother filthering what they run and what they dont and just ignore every single content between the major instance boss so to make it as painless as possible. Ill just mention that it sometime include skipping crusher etc for the sake of effectiveness, while trash skipping should be possible thanks to thief there is absolutely no way why boss skipping should be possible. Ill also mention that later on in the dungeon there is a gigantic gorilla champion that is litteraly ignored at all time.

Many boss or miniboss should actualy opose the players with some kind of natural barrier that block progression until defeated. The bridge shaman for exemple could simply put block the path with a flame legion magma wall. As for in arah the gorilla could block the path with a boulder and crusher etc could actualy have locked gates. Im more then aware arah has tons of shortcut that were or were not fixed trought its release. To some point in history it was that bad that we could start the quest and kill lupicus straith up using a mesmer portal at entrance.

Now about balancing dungeon rewards for player who kill things several ideas have been proposed before.

1. Make mobs drop token lootbag: Lesser mob may drop material bags but these bags can actualy contain up to 2 token of the instance inside.

2. Split dungeon reward amongst bosses: While dungeon reward curently is fully awarded upon dungeon completion the game used to have a system where each boss granted a select amount of money and token. While that system was highly abused to farm token quickly (aka arah crusher farm) it at least had the virtue of making every bosses important. Maybe if they could make the dungeon end reward based on the number of bosses killed rather then static with a bonus if all bosses and miniboss are dead.

Does any of you got other constructive ideas about how to provide extra reward to doing the full dungeon witheout penalising speedrunners?

kyubi.3620:

Does any of you got other constructive ideas about how to provide extra reward to doing the full dungeon witheout penalising speedrunners?

Here are some issues…

1. Your conclusions are based upon the premise that “providing extra reward to full clears without penalizing speedrunners” is a good thing. You assume this is something desirable and that it is a goal development should work towards. This is not self-evident and it is not something you can just assume. You have to make a case for this premise that is meaningful.

2. Skipping non-optional bosses is an exploit, so saying that exploits should be fixed goes without saying.

3. I don’t understand why people who do full clears need more incentive, since they get significantly more loot per dungeon path from all the mobs they kill.

More loot yet less gold and token on the same time scale. Sure if they kill boss slowlier they should make money slowlier but killing optionnal bosses in dungeon should provide significant reward for the time spent. As i said people are punished in some way for not skipping stuff rather then rewarded for their job. Its all about how worthwhile it is to ignore content or not.

What point is there for instance to killing kholer. truth is there is none you get a lovely golden box find a few greens or if lucky a yellow and keep going. The system poorly reward people who actualy try and care and that is kind of wrong. Wouldnt you like too to have optionnal bosses give a better reward or an extra reward for killing? At this point what you gota ask yourself is what do you have to lose if an optionnal bosses give some decent reward. You likely wont do it anyway but those that do will still reap something nice for their trouble.

As an exemple in AC explorable killing the end boss provide 60 token. If the group killed troll it gains an extra 20 and a little gold upon kill completion, If kholer is killed too the group get another extra 20 and a little gold upon kill completion up to a total of 100 token. this can be redone in Arah by turning stuff like the giant gorrila into a event wich upon kill grants 20 token and or with the giant champion spider as well.

What does this do? Well your 100% free to skip those boss or not but killing them as optionnal objective grants a bonus loot to your dungeon run. Those event should obviously grant their bonus loot only once per day as with the main dungeon bonus loot.

Killing Kohler makes the run faster in p1 and p2 by giving you a waypoint. And the loot for Kohler makes killing him worth the time. It takes 15 seconds to kill him and you get a dozen or so silver worth of loot, with a chance at better drops. This is why most speed clear groups kill kohler in their daily dungeon runs.

Just like the people who say fractal rewards are bad, you aren’t calculating the actual value of the loot you’re getting on a time/reward level.

I dont think a orange box with a few green is actualy worth the while even with high magic find and god knows i do have enought to obtain exotic from these. From what you say here only the waypoint is actualy a real good reason for taking him down. If its just for a waypoint i can just skip and run my way trought it will just take 5 or 10 second of travel. Kholer may take 15 second if your team actualy has a meta composition to it but thats not always the case, if your team is actualy a pugged one with random players you may actualy have a longuer fight, you need to consider the fact that even in speed runs idiots and noobs happens and that it is the pug reality, unless im running with guild and im 100% sure of everyone build and skill i wouldnt bother doing an optionnal boss to save a 15 second i might loose in minutes for a failed fight (since kholer buff pugs have kept disapointing me and the quality of the player base dungeonwide is somewhat obviously low).

Fractal rewards are not bad if you consider the fractals token/daily chance for a ascended item. I dont do fractals for the mobs drop altrought the tier 5 and 6 mats always a + and fractal is one of the only dungeon that drop lodestone this much.

If the loot you get from kohler and his chest is worth on average 25 – 50 silver, and it takes 15 seconds to kill him, you can do the math on that. The only people who skip kohler on daily runs are bads.

Well then all pugs are bads :P

Yet kholer is a single exemple amonst the list what do you have to say for the others.

Taking the time to explain the mechanics of every boss in the game would be rough, plus you wouldn’t believe me anyway since you still don’t accept I’m right about Kohler.

I never said you werent right about kholer. Now what about that giant gorrila and the flame shaman miniboss on bridge that everyone totaly ignore. Im sure you can bring in constructive idea.

Even if kholer gained a bonus loot upon kills as an optionnal boss just what do you have to lose?

kyubi.3620:

Well then all pugs are bads :P

^
You’re so right there. Now you get the point.

THere are some things worth killing and some things not. I think it’d be nice if they adjusted some things to make more things worth killing, but that would require some actual knowledge of dungeons, something the ANet employees really seem to lack, heck, I’d say I lack too, at least to the level required for such changes.

Kholer, worth killing.
Champ Destroyer (COEp3), Champ Abom (COE p2/3) for example aren’t.

Trash between Champ Abom and the next boss, worth killing.
Trash between Kholar and the second set of scepter collections in AC not worth killing.

Differences are basically the kill times. They all drop mediocre loot, but the ones we kill are things that go down in seconds, the ones we don’t, not so much. How would you fix it? well, scale up the loot to match the times on those areas, can that be done? no clue. What is the right level? also no clue. It could be done but to actually hit the correct level it’d time some time to figure out answers to those and more questions, then actually implement it… in other words they’d have to work on dungeons… LOLOLOLOL I’ll just end this post while I continue to laugh at that idea ever happening.

kyubi.3620:

Even if kholer gained a bonus loot upon kills as an optionnal boss just what do you have to lose?

An even more overly rewarding AC dungeon. It’s already arguably too high for it’s difficulty level. It’s boring and I hate it but kitten it’s rewards are good already. If Kholer weren’t worth killing maybe, but they really don’t need to add even more to the rewards of a standard run there.

Pretty sure killing Kholer isn’t worth it in path 1 and path 3, not quite sure about path 2.

No Pulse.2967:

Pretty sure killing Kholer isn’t worth it in path 1 and path 3, not quite sure about path 2.

When I was running nightly with a group it was taking us about 20-30s to kill Kholar IIRC, that’s pretty decent for the loot. I figure you make what 10silver-1g+ per kill depending on luck in the champ box and salvages? Just seems like it’d be worth it at that rate.

That said I know you guys run things faster than my group did, so maybe it’s not worth it if you can save those seconds and move on to complete a sixth of another dungeon or something. But your standard groups, I can’t imagine them doing a full path fast enough while matching that kholar time isn’t hard at all.

Jerus.4350:

THere are some things worth killing and some things not. I think it’d be nice if they adjusted some things to make more things worth killing, but that would require some actual knowledge of dungeons, something the ANet employees really seem to lack, heck, I’d say I lack too, at least to the level required for such changes.

Kholer, worth killing.
Champ Destroyer (COEp3), Champ Abom (COE p2/3) for example aren’t.

Trash between Champ Abom and the next boss, worth killing.
Trash between Kholar and the second set of scepter collections in AC not worth killing.

Differences are basically the kill times. They all drop mediocre loot, but the ones we kill are things that go down in seconds, the ones we don’t, not so much. How would you fix it? well, scale up the loot to match the times on those areas, can that be done? no clue. What is the right level? also no clue. It could be done but to actually hit the correct level it’d time some time to figure out answers to those and more questions, then actually implement it… in other words they’d have to work on dungeons… LOLOLOLOL I’ll just end this post while I continue to laugh at that idea ever happening.

Killing the champion abom is stupidly easy, people are just morons and let it build frenzy.

I’m not sure how the risen mobs function but if they’re just like the defilers in Arah they shouldn’t even be an issue.

Free bag, man. Not sure why people are so adamant on skipping free loot.

maha.7902:

Jerus.4350:

THere are some things worth killing and some things not. I think it’d be nice if they adjusted some things to make more things worth killing, but that would require some actual knowledge of dungeons, something the ANet employees really seem to lack, heck, I’d say I lack too, at least to the level required for such changes.

Kholer, worth killing.
Champ Destroyer (COEp3), Champ Abom (COE p2/3) for example aren’t.

Trash between Champ Abom and the next boss, worth killing.
Trash between Kholar and the second set of scepter collections in AC not worth killing.

Differences are basically the kill times. They all drop mediocre loot, but the ones we kill are things that go down in seconds, the ones we don’t, not so much. How would you fix it? well, scale up the loot to match the times on those areas, can that be done? no clue. What is the right level? also no clue. It could be done but to actually hit the correct level it’d time some time to figure out answers to those and more questions, then actually implement it… in other words they’d have to work on dungeons… LOLOLOLOL I’ll just end this post while I continue to laugh at that idea ever happening.

Killing the champion abom is stupidly easy, people are just morons and let it build frenzy.

I’m not sure how the risen mobs function but if they’re just like the defilers in Arah they shouldn’t even be an issue.

Free bag, man. Not sure why people are so adamant on skipping free loot.

You’re the first person I’ve ever seen advocate killing him

it’s functionally identical to the abomination outside of caer shadowfain which you can just casually solo (pre-megaserver) with like, zero effort. If people can farm giants in arah p3 or kill kholer in AC, COE abom shouldn’t even be a problem.

maha.7902:

it’s functionally identical to the abomination outside of caer shadowfain which you can just casually solo (pre-megaserver) with like, zero effort. If people can farm giants in arah p3 or kill kholer in AC, COE abom shouldn’t even be a problem.

Cool I’ll have to give it a try, honestly I’ve only tried killing him a few times and it went poorly and someone would say ’that’s why you don’t kill him" so I just figured they knew what they were talking about

That champion coe abom dies super fast. The two trash elites with him are far more dangerous actually.