Guild Wars 2

Spoj The Second.7680:

Warrior can maintain perma fury on itself. Banner of disc should lasts for the full duration of almost every fight. Check warrior lupi solos for reference (perma fury and good uptime of banner). So crit chance is going to be around 100% for the majority of the time. If you have a low dps pug you can take inspiring banners in adept for perma 100% self crit chance.

My group often goes lazy mode with a phalanx warrior in our casual runs and that means the only one providing might after the start of the fight is the warrior. And it stays at about 20-25 might for the full duration. And even if it was only 15 might done by the warrior, thats good enough if we see ingame that everyone has 25 might most of the time. Please play the game Guang. Its all well and good calculating with maths, but you should back up claims with ingame testing aswell.

Take care, warriors do not actually have perma fury! Those 2% downtime may get you screwed totally!

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Essence Snow.3194:

Wait he doesn’t test things in game, and yet argues validity?

That’s what the detractors usually say when they know I’m right, the math is right, etc. but they don’t want to admit they’re wrong. It’s the classic “I know math, logic, experience, and common sense all support your agument but I totally did this one thing this one time and got a different result” argument that Warlord really brought back into the scene lately. Also keep in mind that the same people were playing the ‘hurr math is for nerds" card when I argued in favor of DPS guardians, DPS ranger, DPS staff ele, DPS engie, etc. And I don’t think I’ve ever been wrong on any major point.

That said, Phalanx warrior is still decent for pugs even at 15 might although you’ll probably still want to consider if it’s really worth the DPS loss. The overall boost is quite significant but the personal DPS goes to utter crap and there’s no guarantee that the other pugs are even doing any damage worth boosting. Double of nothing is still nothing.

I have honestly not seen you arguing about staff eles, dps rangers, dps guardians or… ohwait, you argue about dps engis all time, apparently beeing best profession in the game, doing better job at everything than warriors, especially having greater survivability and of course dealing much better damage, even in a solo setting.

You know what the problem on this one is? Whenever someone tries to verify that claim in game, it turns out that engineers are just about half as good as you make them look.

The best bit is when he says warriors are a bad pug class because they can’t keep themselves alive. Like, he literally just needs to play the game and he wouldn’t even be trying to claim half the stuff he does since he would be able to verify it in game for like five minutes.

Guys, I think the problem is not that Guang is wrong, it’s the game that is not right. Obviously the game is bad at maths.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Essence Snow.3194:

Wait he doesn’t test things in game, and yet argues validity?

That’s what the detractors usually say when they know I’m right, the math is right, etc. but they don’t want to admit they’re wrong. It’s the classic “I know math, logic, experience, and common sense all support your agument but I totally did this one thing this one time and got a different result” argument that Warlord really brought back into the scene lately. Also keep in mind that the same people were playing the ‘hurr math is for nerds" card when I argued in favor of DPS guardians, DPS ranger, DPS staff ele, DPS engie, etc. And I don’t think I’ve ever been wrong on any major point.

That said, Phalanx warrior is still decent for pugs even at 15 might although you’ll probably still want to consider if it’s really worth the DPS loss. The overall boost is quite significant but the personal DPS goes to utter crap and there’s no guarantee that the other pugs are even doing any damage worth boosting. Double of nothing is still nothing.

If you’re not willing to test in game very simply put you’re not worth discussing with. Everyone knows numbers (yours are deficient btw) are only a portion and cannot comprise validity w/o real testing to back them up. It’s the way things work in reality. I bid you adios.

When I found out one thing about guang, he starts using the incapability of certain people as generalized argument, whenever he has nothing left to support his claims. Or he accuses others of standing with the back to the wall.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

That’s what the detractors usually say when they know I’m right, the math is right, etc. but they don’t want to admit they’re wrong. It’s the classic “I know math, logic, experience, and common sense all support your agument but I totally did this one thing this one time and got a different result” argument that Warlord really brought back into the scene lately. Also keep in mind that the same people were playing the ‘hurr math is for nerds" card when I argued in favor of DPS guardians, DPS ranger, DPS staff ele, DPS engie, etc. And I don’t think I’ve ever been wrong on any major point.

That said, Phalanx warrior is still decent for pugs even at 15 might although you’ll probably still want to consider if it’s really worth the DPS loss. The overall boost is quite significant but the personal DPS goes to utter crap and there’s no guarantee that the other pugs are even doing any damage worth boosting. Double of nothing is still nothing.

I’ve been using dps guardian since before you started this spreadsheet war. You don’t need spreadsheets to show your point, it’s relatively easy to test in-game,

hendo.1940:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Essence Snow.3194:

Wait he doesn’t test things in game, and yet argues validity?

That’s what the detractors usually say when they know I’m right, the math is right, etc. but they don’t want to admit they’re wrong. It’s the classic “I know math, logic, experience, and common sense all support your agument but I totally did this one thing this one time and got a different result” argument that Warlord really brought back into the scene lately. Also keep in mind that the same people were playing the ‘hurr math is for nerds" card when I argued in favor of DPS guardians, DPS ranger, DPS staff ele, DPS engie, etc. And I don’t think I’ve ever been wrong on any major point.

That said, Phalanx warrior is still decent for pugs even at 15 might although you’ll probably still want to consider if it’s really worth the DPS loss. The overall boost is quite significant but the personal DPS goes to utter crap and there’s no guarantee that the other pugs are even doing any damage worth boosting. Double of nothing is still nothing.

I have honestly not seen you arguing about staff eles, dps rangers, dps guardians or… ohwait, you argue about dps engis all time, apparently beeing best profession in the game, doing better job at everything than warriors, especially having greater survivability and of course dealing much better damage, even in a solo setting.

You know what the problem on this one is? Whenever someone tries to verify that claim in game, it turns out that engineers are just about half as good as you make them look.

As far as I know I was the only one advocating DPS guardian back when everyone was on the Strife anchor AH/EM meta, and the responses back then were basically:

1) “u dum guard cant dps like hundred badle”
2) “lol lets see u survive in fractals 20+ without anchor”
3) “post 5guardian cof speedclear vid plz”

Then DPS ranger:

1) “lol show ranger vid beat hb damag”
2) “post 5ranger cof speedclear vid plz”

Then DPS staff ele:
1) “lol ele for lh blast, warrior for dps not other way around”
2) “post 5ele speedclear vid plz”

So now we’re just waiting on DPS engie to catch on since we got through the “post 5engie speedclear” phase already. I think some of the DnT guys were testing it and getting good results? I don’t really know or care, I know I’m right.

I will also point out that while spreadsheets may not be the only way to determine effectiveness, they are probably the most accurate and most objective way to do so. And so far my track record’s been pretty good so i have no reason to doubt them. Meanwhile the “in-game experience” guys are barely getting off 3war/1guard/1mes so you’ll excuse me if I’m skeptical about their ability to accurately kitten stuff in this game.

Your track record has been terrible to say the least.

For one, remember the staff ele “debate” ? You can not claim to have been right all along just because a patch conveniently buffed staff! Besides, I remember you did all your calculations wrong at that time. Even after the patch you got things wrong … It was really terrible. And the worse is: I had been talking about the potential of staff ele long before you wrote your thread. You can check my message history (on my main account).

So I don’t know about the other classes, but for all I know you it seems to me you are not a trustworthy source of theory. And now you are being dishonest.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

As far as I know I was the only one advocating DPS guardian back when everyone was on the Strife anchor AH/EM meta, and the responses back then were basically:

Ye, maybe on guru.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

And before we forget the original point,

The point of contention is your ridiculous lowballing of might received from a PS Build. Allies receiving 11 might sustained from a PS Build? Utter ridiculousness.

This is what you said:

We’re looking at like 10-15 stacks of might from Phalanx from an pug warrior with Forceful Greatsword

These are the responses:

Phalanx is very easy 25 might in a matter of a few seconds. If anyone can’t attain it something is seriously wrong.

hendo.1940:

I tested phalanx strength in low-man Arah settings and it maintains 22-25 might with strength runes and a strength sigil. Guang doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Until you do better math, Guanglai, don’t worry about comparing Warrior and Engi. Nobody else on this thread is.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

hendo.1940:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Essence Snow.3194:

Wait he doesn’t test things in game, and yet argues validity?

That’s what the detractors usually say when they know I’m right, the math is right, etc. but they don’t want to admit they’re wrong. It’s the classic “I know math, logic, experience, and common sense all support your agument but I totally did this one thing this one time and got a different result” argument that Warlord really brought back into the scene lately. Also keep in mind that the same people were playing the ‘hurr math is for nerds" card when I argued in favor of DPS guardians, DPS ranger, DPS staff ele, DPS engie, etc. And I don’t think I’ve ever been wrong on any major point.

That said, Phalanx warrior is still decent for pugs even at 15 might although you’ll probably still want to consider if it’s really worth the DPS loss. The overall boost is quite significant but the personal DPS goes to utter crap and there’s no guarantee that the other pugs are even doing any damage worth boosting. Double of nothing is still nothing.

I have honestly not seen you arguing about staff eles, dps rangers, dps guardians or… ohwait, you argue about dps engis all time, apparently beeing best profession in the game, doing better job at everything than warriors, especially having greater survivability and of course dealing much better damage, even in a solo setting.

You know what the problem on this one is? Whenever someone tries to verify that claim in game, it turns out that engineers are just about half as good as you make them look.

As far as I know I was the only one advocating DPS guardian back when everyone was on the Strife anchor AH/EM meta, and the responses back then were basically:

1) “u dum guard cant dps like hundred badle”
2) “lol lets see u survive in fractals 20+ without anchor”
3) “post 5guardian cof speedclear vid plz”

Then DPS ranger:

1) “lol show ranger vid beat hb damag”
2) “post 5ranger cof speedclear vid plz”

Then DPS staff ele:
1) “lol ele for lh blast, warrior for dps not other way around”
2) “post 5ele speedclear vid plz”

So now we’re just waiting on DPS engie to catch on since we got through the “post 5engie speedclear” phase already. I think some of the DnT guys were testing it and getting good results? I don’t really know or care, I know I’m right.

I will also point out that while spreadsheets may not be the only way to determine effectiveness, they are probably the most accurate and most objective way to do so. And so far my track record’s been pretty good so i have no reason to doubt them. Meanwhile the “in-game experience” guys are barely getting off 3war/1guard/1mes so you’ll excuse me if I’m skeptical about their ability to accurately kitten stuff in this game.

I love how you refer to in game experience condescendingly when how a build works in practice is kinda like, slightly more relevant than it’s spreadsheet efficiency, otherwise we would all be using desperate power warriors. And if you think we’re barely getting off old meta, then just lol. Why would you make a fool out of yourself arguing about something you can test in game for like five minutes to confirm? This isn’t like where we thought warriors were best dps, this is literally just the number of might stacks showing up on screen, and in the case of phalanx warriors, it’s higher than you claim. The fact that you didn’t even include rush or blade trail in your example of a warrior rotation makes it pretty hard to take you seriously too.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I feel the need to clarify one thing because this is a blatant misconception on the part of many, many people who have not actually looked at the numbers:

THE HAMMER IS THE LOWEST DPS WEAPON THE GUARDIAN HAS.

That’s right, the hammer’s DPS is even lower than the staff’s. Mighty Blow is crap damage. It takes forever to execute and barely hits above a mace auto-attack. Symbol of Protection is high damage but the hammer chain is also ludicrously slow, so your average damage is actually extremely low.

Moreover, using the hammer won’t even significantly improve your survivability, because you don’t get enough hits to proc AH heals off crits compared to GS/scepter and your healing is completely halted if you ever stop auto-attacking.

As such, I recommend you only use hammer if you are in a situation where you need protection specifically. Otherwise, for a balanced defensive set, the mace is better. It does more damage, Symbol of Faith gives an near-equivalent number of AH procs over time (7 every 9s vs 8 every 10s), and you don’t have to constantly auto-attack to keep the symbol up so you can use other skills without losing survivability.

I commend the effort you made in writing the guide (and some parts of it are good) but you should really check your numbers first. Numbers are important. So is experience. Your unfounded claims fail in both.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Numbers are important. So is experience. Your unfounded claims fail in both.

Something something something kettle black.

That dug up post is pure gold. Thanks for that.

I feel like somehow this is my fault that were digging up the past. O.O

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I feel like somehow this is my fault that were digging up the past. O.O

Fault is such a negative word. Claim it, own it, revel in it.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I feel like somehow this is my fault that were digging up the past. O.O

The good thing about the past, we can look back and laugh. So lets all laugh and move forward towards the future!

0/30/0/30/10, Deep Strikes, Sigil of Strength/Accuracy, FGS, Runes of Strength.

With fury:
http://i.imgur.com/7Lz30uw.jpg

Without:
http://i.imgur.com/mDiFSMP.jpg

Video games sure are hard.

Also the DPS on that “AH crithammer” build I was responding to was in fact really bad, it was something really dumb like 0/10/30/20/10 if I remember correctly. It might even have been lower than the staff alternative with equivalent traits so I’m going to stand by that statement.

So with fury you can have 25 might and a phalanx warrior basically has perma fury. What were you trying to say again that we haven’t already covered?

Righto, I forgot FGJ gave permafury.

FGJ = 10/25 = 40% fury uptime, don’t be silly.

SoR with traited cool down = 30/48 = 62.5% fury uptime.

You’re not using your SoR.

Why would you use Signet of Rage? You want Battle Standard.

I only put SoR on my bar for Deep Strikes to max out crit chance.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Why would you use Signet of Rage? You want Battle Standard.

I only put SoR on my bar for Deep Strikes to max out crit chance.

Just thought I’d chime in here. I find this nerd fight amusing, and I want Guanglai to win because I main engi. Also <3 maths.

I want us all to hug and get along and agree that it doesn’t matter what class you main… As long as it isn’t necro. (Sorry spoj.)

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I want us all to hug and get along and agree that it doesn’t matter what class you main… As long as it isn’t necro. (Sorry spoj.)

All the speed clear teams exclude engi usually too. I’ve been itching for a revolution since forever.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I want us all to hug and get along and agree that it doesn’t matter what class you main… As long as it isn’t necro. (Sorry spoj.)

All the speed clear teams exclude engi usually too. I’ve been itching for a revolution since forever.

I fell in love with your engi when you and dioptric carried my sorry kitty through that pug fractal last june.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I want us all to hug and get along and agree that it doesn’t matter what class you main… As long as it isn’t necro. (Sorry spoj.)

All the speed clear teams exclude engi usually too. I’ve been itching for a revolution since forever.

I fell in love with your engi when you and dioptric carried my sorry kitty through that pug fractal last june.

Yeah, but pugging is the extent of it. Pugged all the way to fractals 80. Oh man I remember running cleric’s engi on shaman in the 30s. Thought I was so good.

But the point is we’re looked down upon for speed clears.

Engi in bear form can use grenades and have ridiculously high DPS.

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Just kidding!

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Why would you use Signet of Rage? You want Battle Standard.

I only put SoR on my bar for Deep Strikes to max out crit chance.

Do you plan for success or do you plan for failure?

If you’re planning on using Battle Standard, you’re already expecting your team to fail and for you to have to use it. By planning for failure, you’re also helping create a situation where failure is more likely by not supplying the most positive support to help your team succeed.

If you’re planning on using SoR, you’re planning on maximizing DPS and helping the team with keeping might maxed. Faster kills means people are less likely to go down.

Now does this mean one is superior than another? Certainly not, but if SoR has such great synergy with the build, why neglect using it? Seriously, you’re like “Look how terrible this build is at generating might! Especially if I don’t use one of the tools on it!” I could say Engineer sucks at team DPS, especially when I take away your bomb kit and give you an elixir gun instead.

So Guang, you are always right, your track record is very good, but you forgot about the fury from FGJ ? Do you even gw2 bro?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Why would you use Signet of Rage? You want Battle Standard.

I only put SoR on my bar for Deep Strikes to max out crit chance.

errr….

why would you use battle standard in a dungeon?

maha.7902:

errr….

why would you use battle standard in a dungeon?

DD uses it. I guess we’re too casual to know why though :/

Even bear form is better than the signet in organized groups with multiple eles. Might is wasted, fury is wasted, swiftness is provided from other sources + hylek pot.

No Pulse.2967:

Even bear form is better than the signet in organized groups with multiple eles. Might is wasted, fury is wasted, swiftness is provided from other sources + hylek pot.

Yes but it does not matter: the fact is PS warriors will have perma fury. So Guang was wrong, again.

No Pulse.2967:

Even bear form is better than the signet in organized groups with multiple eles. Might is wasted, fury is wasted, swiftness is provided from other sources + hylek pot.

Part of the situation is that it isn’t an organized party.

Aside of the perma fury thing, how can you get 25 stacks with fury but only 15 without?
Since when do 10-20% critchance result in a 66% might increase?

And for all your fights, aside of the staff ele one back before the update, I argued that its useless in dungeons compared to S/D + FGS. Zelyhn prove you wrong on D/F being superior. I never saw a guardian debate of you here on the forums, the ranger one was really short (and I’m sure I did not have it with you). However, I don’t see rangers being used in dungeons, let alone speedruns, so I guess I’m right. But:

As for engineer, you’ve been claiming engineer dps as high as warriors. Multiple times now, also being equally strong in a solo setting. If you are sure you are right, why don’t you just do a 4 min lupicus solo to verify your claims? I tried to test them ingame, but every time I got their direct damage being about 40-50% lower than warriors.

I mean, if you are right, it shouldn’t be that hard to prove it, should it?

DigitalKirin.9714:

No Pulse.2967:

Even bear form is better than the signet in organized groups with multiple eles. Might is wasted, fury is wasted, swiftness is provided from other sources + hylek pot.

Part of the situation is that it isn’t an organized party.

I was referring to

DD uses it. I guess we’re too casual to know why though :/

No Pulse.2967:

DigitalKirin.9714:

No Pulse.2967:

Even bear form is better than the signet in organized groups with multiple eles. Might is wasted, fury is wasted, swiftness is provided from other sources + hylek pot.

Part of the situation is that it isn’t an organized party.

I was referring to

DD uses it. I guess we’re too casual to know why though :/

That context helps.

But why do you even need it in an organized group. :P

spoj.9672:

But why do you even need it in an organized group. :P

Probably because there’s nothing better to take (unless you’re Norn)… It’s not your job to take FGS as the only warrior, so Rampage is kinda out of question, therefore the situational AOE rez is better especially when running risky comps without stability and/or reflects.

Risky comp in dungeons is an oxymoron.

haviz.1340:

Risky comp in dungeons is an oxymoron.

OK.

The only risky comp i can think of is 5 necros in a high reflect situation. But thats a low dps group so you wouldnt run it anyway. Every class has ways to deal with pretty much every encounter with little to no risk. Dungeons arent that hard in their current state. :P

spoj.9672:

The only risky comp i can think of is 5 necros in a high reflect situation. But thats a low dps group so you wouldnt run it anyway. Every class has ways to deal with pretty much every encounter with little to no risk. Dungeons arent that hard in their current state. :P

Yes, but every tour is a record run !

Even in a record run theres no excuse to not have reflect/stability/invuln especially if stacking eles.

Yeah, because DD never uses guardians or mesmers due to low DPS. Reflects are for casuals. 5 ele FTW!

Ele has reflects, invuln and stab.

Ele has only firey greatsword. That’s it.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Ele has only firey greatsword. That’s it.

^