Guild Wars 2

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

I’m sort of confused. Are you all testing engi? I read Guang’s engi post on the DnT forums and saw his video. His numbers seemed plausible at the very least.

We were doing arah p2 run with his recommended team composition and I was completely blown away by the result. I am verry sorry to doubt, I wish I knew earlier.

Edit: Yeah, we’re totally blown away by the results.
Just like the abominations were.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Mmm. Can I be Co leader of this venture because this is perfect

Sure, you match our desired profile perfectly

haviz.1340:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

I’m sort of confused. Are you all testing engi? I read Guang’s engi post on the DnT forums and saw his video. His numbers seemed plausible at the very least.

We were doing arah p2 run with his recommended team composition and I was completely blown away by the result. I am verry sorry to doubt, I wish I knew earlier.

So I’m assuming this is hard sarcasm, and his comp turned out to be bad. Thanks for testing it, I hope you’ll share a vid!

Lucas.9157:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Mmm. Can I be Co leader of this venture because this is perfect

Sure, you match our desired profile perfectly

Sexcellent.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

So I’m assuming this is hard sarcasm, and his comp turned out to be bad. Thanks for testing it, I hope you’ll share a vid!

I guess you could say it’s okay on paper.

I’ll take that to mean you recognize the DPS potential but botched the rotation and something silly happened when you actually tried it in a dungeon.

I’m willing to wait until engies eventually become meta on their own and haviz and hendo and whoever else from rT (Dub?) all start pretending they were running engies from the start. I’m not going anywhere, this forum keeps me entertained one way or another.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’ll take that to mean you recognize the DPS potential but botched the rotation and something silly happened when you actually tried it in a dungeon.

I knew this would happen.

Im glad I wasnt the only one who thought that would be said. As I read it I was thinking if he is proven incorrect in anyway he could simply say “you didnt do it correctly or the way I would have done it”

Ofcourse we knew that. Just like we knew he would say we were scared because we wouldn’t run it. He’s pretty predictable.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’m willing to wait until engies eventually become meta on their own and haviz and hendo and whoever else from rT (Dub?) all start pretending they were running engies from the start.

Man, you really have a slow catch.

Ive been on dnt forum… Kind of surprizes me the different attitude on there… None of my business tho

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’ll take that to mean you recognize the DPS potential but botched the rotation and something silly happened when you actually tried it in a dungeon.

I’m willing to wait until engies eventually become meta on their own and haviz and hendo and whoever else from rT (Dub?) all start pretending they were running engies from the start. I’m not going anywhere, this forum keeps me entertained one way or another.

We weren’t trying engies, we were testing your team composition for arah p2 that includes an engie. The dps potential of it was rather average and could be improved massively with few changes. Not to mention viability of few builds in certain encounters you obviously forgot to factor in.

Dungeon speedrun is not a set of bosses fights in vacuum.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

There’s basically three camps of people out there:

-snip-

3) Actual theorycrafters. People who make the meta by way of actually understanding how the game works rather than going on the basis of “it looks like this profession does a lot of damage” -snip- and it can be hard to tell the real ones from the posers who just make up numbers.

It’s not that hard, actually.

Ryn.6459:

Ive been on dnt forum… Kind of surprizes me the different attitude on there… None of my business tho

What?

Yeah I went on the DnT forums to see that “talk about engis” Guang was claiming to have done. There’s nothing really. He gave a bunch of numbers backed by nothing, and you guys just took them for granted? Guang is known to fail at maths, by the way. If we are going to talk about engis seriously then we need to have a more accurate approach.

I can’t really speak for other people, but I was just curious to see more analysis. I think that was the general consensus, or at least that was the impression I got. Nothing else really came of the thread, though.

“Posers”.
Come on, now. You remind me of my high school years.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

I can’t really speak for other people, but I was just curious to see more analysis. I think that was the general consensus, or at least that was the impression I got. Nothing else really came of the thread, though.

Alright ok. It’s just that Guang making claims, saying he has developed on the subject on the DnT forums, while you stating the meta was about to change, made me feel like you had given this extensive thoughts.

I do not know much about the speedrun capabilities of engis, but we can look at burst and sustained dps for now. As far as I am aware of we do not have a data base to work with. We need coefficients, casting times, and feasibility frontiers before we can conclude anything. This is the kind of background work that Keyz and I did for the ele.

At the moment I am working on this using data from the tooltips and some estimations. This is not very accurate. But I have found some interesting results.
At the same time I am in the process of updating my DPS calculator.

I think all of us know Guang has zero speed run experience, is pretty bad at the game and just wants to view everything in a vacuum – generally when he’s been right it’s because his guangmath has actually been applicable in-game, but things like “mesmers have high dps” and “use a ranger here” when the mesmer has like a 12 second ramp up time or the ranger has to deal with the awkward sword auto to dodge deadly attacks kind of throws all of the calculations off when you aren’t able to sustain the high damage.

maha.7902:

I think all of us know Guang has zero speed run experience, is pretty bad at the game and just wants to view everything in a vacuum – generally when he’s been right it’s because his guangmath has actually been applicable in-game, but things like “mesmers have high dps” and “use a ranger here” when the mesmer has like a 12 second ramp up time or the ranger has to deal with the awkward sword auto to dodge deadly attacks kind of throws all of the calculations off when you aren’t able to sustain the high damage.

Additionally, he’s known for calculating with wrong values, hence coming up with wrong results. I don’t know if guang has ever been right about anything.

I agree to the lack of coefficient data being detrimental to not knowing the engineers place on the dps scale. Things like static discharge, mine field, bunker down mines. Though with grenade spamming alone, we should be able to have at least a 1.1 coefficient per seconds. Add to that blunderbuss and jump shot and tool kit, and baby we got a stew going.

Gyler.8150:

I agree to the lack of coefficient data being detrimental to not knowing the engineers place on the dps scale. Things like static discharge, mine field, bunker down mines. Though with grenade spamming alone, we should be able to have at least a 1.1 coefficient per seconds. Add to that blunderbuss and jump shot and tool kit, and baby we got a stew going.

Then take into account that engineers have one 5% modifier while endurance is low and one 5% modifier against bleeding targets and… ohwait, that’s it. Bringing engineers to effective ~6% damage increase by modifiers.
Compare that to the 60% eles get, who also have higher coefficients on skills, are superior in might/fury stacking and kitten on engineers anyway, assuming frostbow and fgs.
Also, engineers are just extremely slow, if not using executioner’s axe and offering all three utility slots for mobility.

Well you could add explosive powder(10% with explosions), since most of the time you’ll be spending tossing grenades, add in modified ammunition (2% for each condi) for atleast 3(?) conditions, vuln,bleed,burn for another 6%. That should be around a 20% damage modifier. Which is again not even close to eles, but still higher than 6%.

Aren’t multipliers additive in this game?

That would make you lose 20% recharge thing, which is worth more for sustained dps, as far as I know.
As for modified ammo, I thought bunker down was the new to-go? I don’t have the skillpoints to try it out, so if I was wrong about that, forgive me.
Would get up to ~14% modifier on average then, I guess. Engineer luckily puts out quite a few conditions.
But even then, it’s kinda nothing. Zelyhn just ran numbers on engi, came to the concusion guangs stuff was false as kitten and asked me for a practical confirmation on what his results were.
All in all, engineers are not worth any more taking into a speedrun than necros. Which means, not at all.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Aren’t multipliers additive in this game?

Two 10% modifiers would result in a 1.1*1.1=1.21 damage increase. Not additive, but “multiplicative” (which is better).

The main problem with bunker down is the positioning has to be very specific, so it may be more detrimental to be in the right position for it to go off 24/7. Also i don’t know if empower adrenaline is taken atm O_o, I usually go for the bleed stacks one, so it would be less damage modifiers, you are right.

You can debate me vs. Zelyhn but honestly I trust me more lol. He doesn’t really have the best track record with the whole “dagger ele is best DPS” thing and conversely I don’t think you actually have any evidence for my math ever actually being wrong, but that’s neither here nor there. Let’s do this right either way.

The fact that you’re debating coefficients and modifiers at all makes it kind of obvious that you’re new to this whole “guangmath” thing. You can’t just look at eles and go “oh eles have more modifiers they must be best DPS”, there’s a load of other factors involved. I can’t believe I even have to explain this to you guys but:

- Cooldowns. One skill that does big damage with a big cooldown (i.e. Meteor Shower) is less of an overall DPS contribution than a skill that deals less but with a smaller cooldown (i.e. Lava Font).

- Actual damage. Coefficients are only one part of the picture because all they are is a factor multiplied into all other stats. For example, a 2/5/0/0/5 Guardian with hypothetically equal coefficients over time as a 6/6/0/0/2 mesmer deals much lower average DPS, because he’s investing into fewer stats that actually boost damage. Similarly, he’d do less than a warrior with a greatsword because said greatsword has a higher weapon damage.

- Damage modifiers. This is the one you actually picked up on, more modifiers = more damage. That said, higher pre-modified DPS also means more damage, which is why staff ele outdamages LH ele despite having fewer modifiers. The one thing pure damage modifiers matters for is when holding a conjure like FGS, although stats factor in as well.

- Support DPS contribution. This is why people take warriors even though their personal DPS is low. If you attribute the damage boosted to the rest of the party to the warrior, the warrior is actually the highest DPS member of the party. Similarly, the engie’s DPS isn’t as high as an ele’s but he boosts the DPS of the rest of the party and thus has a massive DPS contribution.

In the case of engineers, you have relatively low damage modifiers and a low base damage on your auto-attack alone, but you have an absolute ton of high-damage cooldowns. Since they do not have weapon switching, you can use BOB, Grenade Barrage, Acid Bomb/Mine Field/Surprise Shot, Blunderbuss, Jump Shot, Shrapnel Grenade, and Freeze Grenade all on cooldown between regular Grenade primaries, which is where you are getting such high DPS from. That is most likely where you were losing out on DPS in your dungeon test and/or DPS maths, if you weren’t accounting for those. And yes, Explosive Powder is better than Short Fuse, as is Modified Ammunition versus Bunker Down, although Bunker Down is technically better albeit impractical.

Since you seem to be willing to give this a valid shot we should make sure it’s done properly:

1) Take a legit engie build and run numbers on it specifically. I recommend using the 30/30/0/0/10 one from my Guru guide since that has everything minmaxed already.

2) Get whatever data you need on attack speed, coefficients, etc. that will enable you to do an accurate numbers crunch using whatever method you personally prefer. That said, make sure you get the full DPS rotation otherwise you’re not going to see the full weapon potential.

3) When you test in a dungeon, make sure you are appropriately taking advantage of the engie’s strengths. This includes making sure you’re not overstacking might or vuln and instead swapping whatever traits/utilities on the other classes that would overstack to DPS, or something similarly useful. That also includes stealth stacking using the engie’s bombs, instead of bringing both a thief and an engie, etc.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

You can debate me vs. Zelyhn but honestly I trust me more lol. He doesn’t really have the best track record with the whole “dagger ele is best DPS” thing and conversely I don’t think you actually have any evidence for my math ever actually being wrong, but that’s neither here nor there.

Wow
So you can check my entire posting history and you will never find me saying “dagger ele is best DPS”. However you will find looooooooots of posts showing you failing at maths.

Edit: as for the rest of your post, wut?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

—snip—

Dude bro, pls can you prove to everyone that necro is the best profession for dungeons like you did with the engie? Also pls add some meaningful maths.

Wow you managed to make Leman post, Guang, that does not happen often. And when it does, it’s meaningful.

As for your engi rotations, it took Dub and I no more than two minutes to come up with something better than yours. This sounds awfully familiar to the time you did not include meteor shower in your staff ele rotation
(Despite me having been talking about ele rotations and staff potential for many months before you wrote your thread ….)

Who’s Leman? I’m out of the loop ;_;

My god, leman. You honor this guy way too much. Alone your presence is honor overkill.

rT’s gym leader.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Since you seem to be willing to give this a valid shot we should make sure it’s done properly:

Except for the usual “you didn’t read any of our posts, did you?”, I need to add that we are not willing to give this a valid shot. We did so, it turned out horrible, both in actual killspeed, but especially on anything but fights. Skips were awful and me as engi has always been lacking behind. Just as the mesmer.

Just once again, it now is on you to prove us wrong (oh, it actually has always been).
We know right that whatever we come up with, you will just comment with us sucking at playing and not being able to handle the complexity of the teambuild. Just do various bosskills with your dream setup, then it’s on us to do better times. If we got beyond that point, we will make videos of how quick skips are with out team composition, then it’s on you to show us faster one’s using yours.

I can just tell you, with our composition, we will get faster bosskills and much faster skips, theres not even a slight chance you’ll come close to our times. But for “getting tired of this kitten”s hell, do it for yourself. Just actually try to prove us wrong.

This thread is the worst thing since atse

hendo.1940:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Since you seem to be willing to give this a valid shot we should make sure it’s done properly:

Except for the usual “you didn’t read any of our posts, did you?”, I need to add that we are not willing to give this a valid shot. We did so, it turned out horrible, both in actual killspeed, but especially on anything but fights. Skips were awful and me as engi has always been lacking behind. Just as the mesmer.

Just once again, it now is on you to prove us wrong (oh, it actually has always been).
We know right that whatever we come up with, you will just comment with us sucking at playing and not being able to handle the complexity of the teambuild. Just do various bosskills with your dream setup, then it’s on us to do better times. If we got beyond that point, we will make videos of how quick skips are with out team composition, then it’s on you to show us faster one’s using yours.

I can just tell you, with our composition, we will get faster bosskills and much faster skips, theres not even a slight chance you’ll come close to our times. But for “getting tired of this kitten”s hell, do it for yourself. Just actually try to prove us wrong.

So basically you botched it and blamed it on the engineer, and not the player. I have nothing to prove nor the incentive to prove it until you give me a reason to care. I don’t even know who you are apart from “some guy on the forum talking a lot of kitten.” You’re basically Warlord 2.0 as far as I’m concerned.

I think I’ve offered plenty of evidence why engie is good, and in rebuttal you’ve offered nothing but “we tried engie once and botched it, must be bad (also there’s no evidence)”.

In all seriousness, there’s nothing left to debate because it’s just namecalling with no meaningful discussion at this point, just like it always is until I’m invariably proven right as always.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

This thread is the worst thing since atse

It still might get worse!

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’m invariably proven right as always.

You simply live in your own dream mate.
You do no read our posts, you do not understand the issues, you completely make up stories. We are only taking part in a discussion with you because it is fun to see with what kind of madness you will come up next.

haviz.1340:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

This thread is the worst thing since atse

It still might get worse!

Where is modbot when you need him

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Where is modbot when you need him

We need Bat Signal.

Z for Zerker…

I’m just waiting for Guang to be proven right again. No worries.

I like this meta of valor guardians with scepters and rangers participating in speedruns.

I look forward to seeing a record with an engi only so we can beat it without one.

spoj.9672:

I look forward to seeing a record with an engi only so we can beat it without one.

I imagine you’ll have to ask Jerem nicely or wait a few years

spoj.9672:

I look forward to seeing a record with an engi only so we can beat it without one.

And that would happen only because our opponent botched up rotations.

Since we’re going nowhere with this, how about we get an actual video of the alleged engie run, so we can see how bad it allegedly was?

If we’re just going on the basis of “we totally did this (in secret) and it was pretty bad” I could just sit here and claim I did a record run solo with an engie in full clerics gear and beat the existing records but oops i forgot to record it so you’ll just have to take my word for it.

Bit of an off question, but how much of ice bow 4’s damage occurs after the channel finishes? Would using Elixir X immediately after it provide a significant damage increase?