Guild Wars 2

So I am part of a relatively new guild that is starting to do more regular dungeon runs. We are all investing in new toons to give ourselves options for building optimal groups for dungeons. Recently on this forum I saw the three and a half minute CM3 run using thief/mesmer/guard/X/X and was impressed by how they used stealth/portal/reflect etc to quickly maneuver the content. It got me thinking about what the optimal party would be for each of dungeons or ideally each dungeon path. Obviously to avoid one of the standard rotating topics I will assume we can leave the all zerk thing as an assumed part of the answer and I am more interested in the utilities, weapons, etc that would be used.

For example, in AC bringing an ele or two for ice bows makes quick work of the gravelings. In TA a staff guardian can clear the blossoms exceptionally quick. I have generally brought reflects into most CM paths for the snipers and rocket turrets. Other than those, I really don’t have much idea for how to optimize a team and what skills are a “must” in certain dungeons.

Thoughts?

Assuming you’re talking about getting through dungeons quickly and efficiently, the optimal party is one that focuses very largely on DPS. With that in mind, if I recall correctly your party composition should be:

1x Warrior (for the banners of strength and discipline, possibly Empowered Allies too)
1x Ranger (Spotter and traited Frost Spirit)
2x Elementalist (Fiery Greatsword elite)
Last man can run any class, though if absolute maximum group DPS is in mind this slot will be filled by a 3rd ele. Otherwise, I’d run a guardian for the defensive support.

You should avoid having too many guardians as one will cover all the defensive support you could ever need.
Mesmer is highly reliant on reflects and keeping their phantasms up for high DPS, you’ll more often than not be gimping your own party by bringing one.
Thief is extremely high DPS (combination of good power scaling on their main weapon sets and having multiple damage modifiers checked) and having one will trivialise any trash skip, as you’ve likely seen in the CM video.
Engineers are a bit of an oddity, I don’t have much information on them.
Necromancers have comparable DPS to warriors, but they have no cleave on any of their weapons, making them very inefficient for clearing multiple groups of trash in quick succession. Also, whatever support a necro brings is easily outdone by a thief, so I’d avoid these like the plague (pun not intended).

Well, that’s what I can think of. I could be wrong, but then I’m probably not far off even if that’s the case.

EDIT: If you read this edit, I cannot stress how important it is for you to make sure your guardian runs a DPS setup and not some clerics healer-tank build, that’s trash. Obal has a good guide to building a DPS guardian here. This setup actually offers good defensive support in exchange for a slightly lower (but still good) DPS.

I run,
Thief for CM, (P1 solo device and trash skip)
Ele for AC (FGS & Icebows for burrows)
Guard TA (Lawnmowing & reflects(specially spider UP))
Ranger HotW (Pugs only range Ginva so…)
Necro COF (lots of Aoe for P2, P1 does not really matter)
I also have a War who is my main, but manly for fractals, but not really focused just… i feel more confortable.
Also baking an Mesmer for SE.
For the rest of the party members Lindbur is spot on.

The normal setup [DD] usually runs with:

• AC: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/X, with X= Guard (p2), elsewhere, X= Thief2/War2 or Ranger.
• CM: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/X, with X= Guard or Mesmer
• TA: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/Guard
• SE: War/Ele1/Ele2/Mes/Thief
• CoF: War/Ele1/Mes/Thief/X, with X= Ele2 (most of the time), occasionally War2 or Ranger.
• CoE: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/X, with X= any of War, Thief, Ranger or Guard.
• HotW: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/Guard
• Arah: War/Ele/Mes/Thief/X, with X = any of War, Thief, Ranger, Ele or Guard.

The better the individual, the less rigid the group composition becomes. For example, if every members of your group is really really good, you can go with 5 warriors or so.

Note for each class role:

• Ele: Might stacking, FGS
• War: Banner buffing, low cd Crowd Control
• Mes: Pull, Reflect, Time Warp, Condi cleanse
• Guard: Blind, Aegis, Reflect, Stability, Condi cleanse
• Ranger: DPS buffing
• Thief: Blind, Stealth, FGS holder, Crowd Control

Lindbur.2537:

Engineers are a bit of an oddity, I don’t have much information on them.
Necromancers have comparable DPS to warriors, but they have no cleave on any of their weapons, making them very inefficient for clearing multiple groups of trash in quick succession. Also, whatever support a necro brings is easily outdone by a thief, so I’d avoid these like the plague (pun not intended).

Well, that’s what I can think of. I could be wrong, but then I’m probably not far off even if that’s the case.

EDIT: If you read this edit, I cannot stress how important it is for you to make sure your guardian runs a DPS setup and not some clerics healer-tank build, that’s trash. Obal has a good guide to building a DPS guardian here. This setup actually offers good defensive support in exchange for a slightly lower (but still good) DPS.

Here’s some information on engineer for you since you said you didn’t have information on them.
roles
1) vulnerability application should be able to keep up 25 stacks alone while switching between grenade and bomb kit (use bomb aa with grenade 2,4,and barrage on cooldown)
2) high largeish aoe damage
3) stealth for skipping using blast finisher and
4) might stacking (up to 21 stacks if your elite is used too)
5) just as a bonus your heal gives heals allies around you for about 4000~ in full zerk if you blast it rather than picking it up
6) can use basilisk venom with grenades to reduce enemy damage if you really want…

builds:
use if you don’t have a spotter ranger and warrior using banner of discipline:
1

use if you do have a spotter ranger and warrior using banner of discipline:
2
(your dodge will drop a bomb faster than your auto attack so you can you dodges to speed up your damage)

using rifle, can drop 10 from elixirs and put it into tools for static discharge:
3

what many engineers will tell you is the current meta
4

This all being said I’d say that engi is still towards the bottom of the list of professions to take to dungeons, good for pugs though as they can fill many roles…

This is really good feedback guys.

I would say that as roles go, Guardians are pretty good for stacking might too (at least that is a role I play in most of my groups). I run a Hammer build to blast finish fire fields and generally use staff for Empower. To the earlier point about guardians, I do run Berserker gear on him, but I do trait for AH which I know is generally frowned upon but helps survivability greatly (especially when I pug).

From what I can tell here, Elementalists are pretty much the most critical to every path and there is a severe lack of them in my guild at this point. Guess we know what to make next. We have a lot of Rangers and Warriors. From what I understand, it never seems to make sense to run more than one Ranger in dungeons though Warriors can probably complement each other better with multiples. The suggestion for only one Guardian makes sense too I think though for groups that are still learning do you find that it is easier to with 2 of them for the extra defensive buffs?

its not perfect but you can actually have 2 rangers one with traited spirits (spotter too) and one without and they stack for extra damage through frost spirit if you really want…That would be more to see how high you could get personal damage I suppose though.

The only advice I can give to OP is to move from defensive role to more offensive role. No amount of defensive buff will make a glass Elementalist viable in dungeons. If the elementalist isn’t built for DPS then they will be even more tanky than a guard and don’t really need a guard defensive buff.

Staff guard is a big No-No. Besides a short boost of might, its DPS is almost too painful to watch. Sword/Focus is a big Yes, because its DPS is nice and gives you more access to Blind, as a soft aegis.

AH is a selfish build. It helps only you survive and if the boss doesn’t die fast, will you be able to solo it?

http://gwscr.com/records/current-meta-dungeon-records to find the (as proven so far) best party set-up for most dungeon paths.

My poor selfish Guardian…. I do understand the point about the AH build. I went with a GS + S/F full DPS build originally and got crushed in most pugs I was running with. In general, pugs tend to be a bit selfish, uncoordinated and not focused on what the team needs (and also seemed to not have enough DPS and/or courage to melee to help take some aggro). So I would blow through my Aegis and Blinds and by that point if the boss or mob wasn’t dead I would have 100% of the aggro and then drop like a fly (queue experts saying “dodge better”). Thus the selfish and tougher AH build. This is why I was asking about a 2nd guardian in a party. Do 2 DPS guards that can alternate Aegis and blinds help survivability for a team that is still learning or not really? I think as I run with guildies I will move back in the pure DPS direction but in the wrong group my Guard = broken glass. (Also, for the record, I almost never use the staff for DPS, just Empower and then switch to Hammer until I need Empower for healing via AH…. still, point taken.)

Thanks for the link of records with videos…. that is awesome.

Interesting idea on how to pair Rangers. Perhaps we can try that too.

The key takeaway so far for me is still to go build an Ele for dungeon running as we typically go without today and obviously they bring the most critical elements to the table.

My next advice would be join Dungeon Mentors [Noob] guild. Contact laharl and ask for his guidance by duo Lupi with you. Then you’ll see the tremendous potential of a DPS guard and one is enough for the whole party.

I am actually in [Noob] but haven’t been able to sync up on a mentored run yet…. good suggestion. laharl I am coming for you!

Haha, I’ve been duoing with lots of [Noob]s lately. It has been quite fun!

IrisTheCasual.3742:

The normal setup [DD] usually runs with:

• AC: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/X, with X= Guard (p2), elsewhere, X= Thief2/War2 or Ranger.
• CM: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/X, with X= Guard or Mesmer
• TA: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/Guard
• SE: War/Ele1/Ele2/Mes/Thief
• CoF: War/Ele1/Mes/Thief/X, with X= Ele2 (most of the time), occasionally War2 or Ranger.
• CoE: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/X, with X= any of War, Thief, Ranger or Guard.
• HotW: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/Guard
• Arah: War/Ele/Mes/Thief/X, with X = any of War, Thief, Ranger, Ele or Guard.

The better the individual, the less rigid the group composition becomes. For example, if every members of your group is really really good, you can go with 5 warriors or so.

Note for each class role:

• Ele: Might stacking, FGS
• War: Banner buffing, low cd Crowd Control
• Mes: Pull, Reflect, Time Warp, Condi cleanse
• Guard: Blind, Aegis, Reflect, Stability, Condi cleanse
• Ranger: DPS buffing
• Thief: Blind, Stealth, FGS holder, Crowd Control

You have way too many Thief in my opinion. I find thieves not really good in AC in particular.

My typical preferred group is :
Warrior (x2) for high DPS burst
Guardian (x1) to keep party alive (reflects, boons, heal, etc.)
Elementalist (x1) for support (heal, boons) and DPS (Frost Bow/FGS)
Any class here (x1) for various other roles. Thieves are very useful in CM for skipping, Mesmers in CoF, etc.

Even if that’s my preferred grouping, I rarely do it and just say “bring what you want” though I often ask for a Warrior and a Guardian at minimum (bear in mind I’m an elementalist myself). A might stacking S/F ele is good to have to.

Try to find a few people who can run with you on a fairly routine basis. It will be a much more enjoyable experience. Iris covered some good team comps. I like having a Ranger with us anywhere we can spare a slot.

I would advise against stacking Guardians. There isn’t really a benefit to doing so.

@Goddess: There really isn’t a need for bringing more Warriors than thieves. Really just looking for the party stat bonus from Warriors and some specific utility. Thieves will put out higher damage and especially so with the summoned weapons. But that’s really just splitting hairs on ‘optimal’ team comps.

Really any of these above will depend on the kind of players the OP knows (Edit: ‘read’ I would rather have 2 good Warriors than 1 good one and a bad thief).

Thieves bring extremely high DPS to the party, along with sustained blinds. They’re also meant to pick up the ele conjures since they have more damage modifiers than any other class (except eles themselves).

EDIT: Doh, Saint beat me to it. I’m such a slow typer. :(

stachekiller.2591:

This is really good feedback guys.

I would say that as roles go, Guardians are pretty good for stacking might too (at least that is a role I play in most of my groups). I run a Hammer build to blast finish fire fields and generally use staff for Empower. To the earlier point about guardians, I do run Berserker gear on him, but I do trait for AH which I know is generally frowned upon but helps survivability greatly (especially when I pug).

No. No. No no no no no no no no no no. No!
You’re better off traiting meta and running knight or whatever.
With protection, weakness and signet of judgement you get around 70% damage reduction. If that is not enough..I don’t know..

If I remember correctly, in one of Obal’s videos he mentions that his build (20/25/0/0/25) for guardian does more damage with cleric’s than AH build does with full zerker. That’s how bad AH is…

Like the 2 people above me I’d also recommend trying out meta-builds again. When I was a fresh level 80 on my Guardian I struggled a bit aswell, but once you learn how to play well with your Blinds, Aegis and Utilities you’ll be an amazing asset to any team in need of a Guardian. I found Hammer + GS easier to get used to (since camping Hammer is easy if I felt I needed to focus on the boss) and (near-)perma protection is wonderful, from there on S/F + GS will only be easier since Shield of Wrath is so strong.

To be fair, if you won’t play meta (which has become meta for a reason) there’s no need to look at the perfect team-composition, might aswell take what your guildies enjoy class-wise and try to build them around high DPS team with the needed utility (so 25 vul, 25 might and perma fury, with the possibility to take Stability/anti-Projectile if needed)

You will only need a perfect teamcomposition if you’re aiming for speedclearing(records,) which I can tell you right now, you won’t get by running AH.

GoddessOfTheWinds.2937:

IrisTheCasual.3742:

The normal setup [DD] usually runs with:

• AC: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/X, with X= Guard (p2), elsewhere, X= Thief2/War2 or Ranger.
• CM: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/X, with X= Guard or Mesmer
• TA: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/Guard
• SE: War/Ele1/Ele2/Mes/Thief
• CoF: War/Ele1/Mes/Thief/X, with X= Ele2 (most of the time), occasionally War2 or Ranger.
• CoE: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/X, with X= any of War, Thief, Ranger or Guard.
• HotW: War/Ele1/Ele2/Thief/Guard
• Arah: War/Ele/Mes/Thief/X, with X = any of War, Thief, Ranger, Ele or Guard.

The better the individual, the less rigid the group composition becomes. For example, if every members of your group is really really good, you can go with 5 warriors or so.

Note for each class role:

• Ele: Might stacking, FGS
• War: Banner buffing, low cd Crowd Control
• Mes: Pull, Reflect, Time Warp, Condi cleanse
• Guard: Blind, Aegis, Reflect, Stability, Condi cleanse
• Ranger: DPS buffing
• Thief: Blind, Stealth, FGS holder, Crowd Control

You have way too many Thief in my opinion. I find thieves not really good in AC in particular.

My typical preferred group is :
Warrior (x2) for high DPS burst
Guardian (x1) to keep party alive (reflects, boons, heal, etc.)
Elementalist (x1) for support (heal, boons) and DPS (Frost Bow/FGS)
Any class here (x1) for various other roles. Thieves are very useful in CM for skipping, Mesmers in CoF, etc.

Even if that’s my preferred grouping, I rarely do it and just say “bring what you want” though I often ask for a Warrior and a Guardian at minimum (bear in mind I’m an elementalist myself). A might stacking S/F ele is good to have to.

Thief is good. A good thief is a perfect companion to a conjure ele. Last night, when my group was at the Thaumanova Fractal (level 50), the thief and I (ele) finished the ooze boss in less than 5 sec while the rest of the party just chilled. We also did the Molten berserker in less than a minute.

Silferas.3841:

If I remember correctly, in one of Obal’s videos he mentions that his build (20/25/0/0/25) for guardian does more damage with cleric’s than AH build does with full zerker. That’s how bad AH is…

that would be wrong, you probably remember incorrectly.

AH (provided the other 40 points arent dud) with zerker does substantially more than clerics with any trait setup. People (not obal) forget that the valor line provides crit damage.

What you lose by taking AH with berserker gear, is your support traits.