Guild Wars 2

I like having a group content that is more organized with actual roles. The problem with the first raid is it’s not accessible to everyone. You basically can’t pug it.

That’s fine but it would be nice to have some more accessible group content with the same concepts.

Like, I want to try a bunch of different builds on VG because the fight allows characters dedicated to tanking or healing to matter. But you know nobody’s going to take a tank that isn’t like a standard reaper or chronomancer, let’s be real. Why should they trust some random dude with his ranger tank or warrior tank or whatever?

Pugs aside, you can theoretically try stuff with your static group or guild if you have one. But let’s also be real on this too. Most guilds or organized groups don’t trust that one crazy guy in their group who wants to innovate, or they’re very impatient with the results.

So I mean, let’s be real here. The only people who will innovate and push new builds are the top 0.01% of players who have smashed the raid so many times that they’re bored and they’re willing to try whatever their members feel like.

That’s why we need some similar content that’s easier and pug friendly, because we’re all bored of running 5 zerkers and facerolling fractals/dungeons and soon enough the novelty of the raid will wear off and we’ll be tired of being forced to run meta builds in it, but it’ll be the only thing anyone’s willing to do because of the difficulty.

Dungeons and Fractals ARE your easier Raids.

Renn.8241:

Dungeons and Fractals ARE your easier Raids.

No they’re just 5 zerker facerolls.

I’d welcome remakes to those that make them more like Spirit Vale.

Khristophoros.7194:

Renn.8241:

Dungeons and Fractals ARE your easier Raids.

No they’re just 5 zerker facerolls.

I’d welcome remakes to those that make them more like Spirit Vale.

You mean that you could complete those without dodge and you would only need to use two skills? Cof1 is harder than VG.

Junkpile.7439:

Khristophoros.7194:

Renn.8241:

Dungeons and Fractals ARE your easier Raids.

No they’re just 5 zerker facerolls.

I’d welcome remakes to those that make them more like Spirit Vale.

You mean that you could complete those without dodge and you would only need to use two skills? Cof1 is harder than VG.

I mean at least with VG you need a tank which opens up different types of builds. The healer role would also be interesting but most professions are terrible at it… But it could be interesting if they fix that.

But the point is, dungeons and fractals don’t require multiple roles. Everyone is just DPS. That’s the big difference.

Khristophoros.7194:

Junkpile.7439:

Khristophoros.7194:

Renn.8241:

Dungeons and Fractals ARE your easier Raids.

No they’re just 5 zerker facerolls.

I’d welcome remakes to those that make them more like Spirit Vale.

You mean that you could complete those without dodge and you would only need to use two skills? Cof1 is harder than VG.

I mean at least with VG you need a tank which opens up different types of builds. Healers, not so much variety available because most professions are just terrible at healing.

But the point is, dungeons and fractals don’t require multiple roles. Everyone is just DPS. That’s the big difference.

But you need to avoid those rolling flame balls in cof1. It’s much harder than strafe out of blue circles or run inside green circle.

Not like you could look for people or join a guild who are willing to try out your stuff. Raids are made for organized groups, so get organized.

What do you mean by easier though? Less mechanics, less health? Also, making things easier may not help build variety but reduce it for pugs – instead of different roles every pug will be using just full dps gear.

Requests like this are ridiculous. Raids are not that much harder than dungeons/fractals.

Renn.8241:

Dungeons and Fractals ARE your easier Raids.

The problem is that anet basically killed dungeons and fractals. And yet there are people out who want to do instanced group content but don’t have a high skill level, not much time, or just want to do some easy content. Of course those players also want to have some content that’s worth playing.
An easy solution would be to give dungeons back their rewards, but that probably will never happen.

Lendruil.9061:

Renn.8241:

Dungeons and Fractals ARE your easier Raids.

The problem is that anet basically killed dungeons and fractals. And yet there are people out who want to do instanced group content but don’t have a high skill level, not much time, or just want to do some easy content. Of course those players also want to have some content that’s worth playing.
An easy solution would be to give dungeons back their rewards, but that probably will never happen.

Not like raids effort a lot of time.
I mean ok, the start, like the learning process will take some hours, depending how good you are in analyzing stuff. But after that <50min full clears are fairly easy. Not even talking about, that you have to do it in one go. You have a complete week for it.
For example:
1st day – 1st boss
2nd day – events til 2nd boss
3rd day – 2nd boss..

This is like 10min/day. So yeah, raids are totally time consuming.

And then again, raids aren’t made for everyone. People can still do dungeons as well as fractals. Maybe the changes in prolly 2 weeks will be good.

Thorwyn.8469:

Lendruil.9061:

Renn.8241:

Dungeons and Fractals ARE your easier Raids.

The problem is that anet basically killed dungeons and fractals. And yet there are people out who want to do instanced group content but don’t have a high skill level, not much time, or just want to do some easy content. Of course those players also want to have some content that’s worth playing.
An easy solution would be to give dungeons back their rewards, but that probably will never happen.

Not like raids effort a lot of time.
I mean ok, the start, like the learning process will take some hours, depending how good you are in analyzing stuff. But after that <50min full clears are fairly easy. Not even talking about, that you have to do it in one go. You have a complete week for it.
For example:
1st day – 1st boss
2nd day – events til 2nd boss
3rd day – 2nd boss..

This is like 10min/day. So yeah, raids are totally time consuming.

And then again, raids aren’t made for everyone. People can still do dungeons as well as fractals. Maybe the changes in prolly 2 weeks will be good.

I am not talking about myself. We cleared the raid on monday in a bit more than one hour. But the point, that raids are pretty much the only instanced content now that at least gives you a little bit of rewards, still stands.
The problem is, that people who are not suited for raids still want to do them, because the other content was pretty much taken away. And now they want the raids to become easier. This could have easily avoided by just not nerfing dungeons/fracs.

Lendruil.9061:

I am not talking about myself. We cleared the raid on monday in a bit more than one hour. But the point, that raids are pretty much the only instanced content now that at least gives you a little bit of rewards, still stands.
The problem is, that people who are not suited for raids still want to do them, because the other content was pretty much taken away. And now they want the raids to become easier. This could have easily avoided by just not nerfing dungeons/fracs.

Wasn’t talking about you as well.
Just wanted to say over all, that it doesn’t take that much time, cause you can split it over one week.

Khristophoros.7194:

I like having a group content that is more organized with actual roles. The problem with the first raid is it’s not accessible to everyone. You basically can’t pug it.

The guild i usually raid with had to few members on so I had to pug yesterday (as I wanted to explore more), and the pug beat gorseval. So raids are puggable, it all depends if you’re good enough. As weeks goes by more and more people will have a clear understanding of how each raid boss works, making it easier to pug.

Thorwyn.8469:

Not like you could look for people or join a guild who are willing to try out your stuff. Raids are made for organized groups, so get organized.

That’s not realistic. People aren’t willing to try stuff.

Lendruil.9061:

Renn.8241:

Dungeons and Fractals ARE your easier Raids.

The problem is that anet basically killed dungeons and fractals. And yet there are people out who want to do instanced group content but don’t have a high skill level, not much time, or just want to do some easy content. Of course those players also want to have some content that’s worth playing.
An easy solution would be to give dungeons back their rewards, but that probably will never happen.

Well if I just wanted decent rewards I’d do the fast dungeon paths because they’re still worth it.

Khristophoros.7194:

Junkpile.7439:

Khristophoros.7194:

Renn.8241:

Dungeons and Fractals ARE your easier Raids.

No they’re just 5 zerker facerolls.

I’d welcome remakes to those that make them more like Spirit Vale.

You mean that you could complete those without dodge and you would only need to use two skills? Cof1 is harder than VG.

I mean at least with VG you need a tank which opens up different types of builds. The healer role would also be interesting but most professions are terrible at it… But it could be interesting if they fix that.

But the point is, dungeons and fractals don’t require multiple roles. Everyone is just DPS. That’s the big difference.

Yeah you need a tank but this doesn’t change your build whatsoever, you just take +4 toughness infusion on reaper and still use your meta dps build. Maybe take rise! utility skill and that’s it.

Wethospu.6437:

Requests like this are ridiculous. Raids are not that much harder than dungeons/fractals.

uh, yes they are. I beat frac 100 on my first attempt…Just getting to Gorseval has taken roughly 20 attempts. To beat a raid you need all 10 members to be on the same page and hardly ever mess up. All dungeons are faceroll easy (I can solo most of them…) and to beat a high level fractal you only need 1 or two good players to keep res’ing people when they’re down. The timer really makes it worlds harder than any fractal. If gorseval isn’t dead soon after his final phase you practically explode. And it takes a near perfect team composition and a high DPS check with good players to do that. One weak link in your team means you will probably fail time and time again. Sure, you can go into a raid with 10 very experienced people and get it done without a whole lot of trouble, but how many attempts did it take for every player to reach that point? While no dungeons and only maybe two fracs (94 mostly) isn’t pug friendly.

Though I will say the individual skill for these raids isn’t incredibly high, when you factor that you need 10 people to not kitten up throughout the whole fights (and someone usually always does) it can become mind numbing after a time. It’s also why pugging tends to be a disaster. And the updraft on Gorseval is broken as kitten since 80% of my fails were one of my team dropping to his death because the updraft didn’t catch him.

When I did AC first time my group spent like 2 hours on Kholer until we quit. When I did Gorseval first time we got it on second try.

Not to mention a huge amount of topics complaning about too hard dungeon difficulty and oneshots.

Wethospu.6437:

When I did AC first time my group spent like 2 hours on Kholer until we quit. When I did Gorseval first time we got it on second try.

Not to mention a huge amount of topics complaning about too hard dungeon difficulty and oneshots.

And now dieing in AC is virtually unheard of. You were A.) new to the game back then and B.) didn’t know how to dodge the one attack that can actually kill you. Had you the experience as you do now back then, you would have noticed his obvious 1-shot tell and easily completed that dungeon. Even if you didn’t know faceroll stacking is enough to beat any dungeon. It doesn’t matter how old raids become, they will never be as explotable and as easy as dungeons. Because they have mechanics that require good team coordination and a skilled dps rotation.

While the raid bosses will always give a risk of death regardless how experienced you are. Because 1 person on team failing means whole team fails.

Gorseval on second try? Sorry, that’s bs. Unless you were carried by 9 very experienced players. Unless all ten of the people on your team have the raid boss memorized, you’re not beating gorseval on second try. A skilled raid group without experience on the boss would take far, far more than two tries. And even if you do have it memorized, so many things can go wrong in that fight. Like gliders not deploying or orbs in terrible spots.

Kagamiku.9731:

Wethospu.6437:

When I did AC first time my group spent like 2 hours on Kholer until we quit. When I did Gorseval first time we got it on second try.

Not to mention a huge amount of topics complaning about too hard dungeon difficulty and oneshots.

Even if you didn’t know faceroll stacking is enough to beat any dungeon. It doesn’t matter how old raids become, they will never be as explotable and as easy as dungeons.

Unless you were carried by 9 very experienced players.

First: stacking is actually a bad idea on bosses most of the time
Second: Wethopsu didn’t get carried by anyone, I’d advise you watch his youtube videos

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Kagamiku.9731:

Wethospu.6437:

When I did AC first time my group spent like 2 hours on Kholer until we quit. When I did Gorseval first time we got it on second try.

Not to mention a huge amount of topics complaning about too hard dungeon difficulty and oneshots.

Even if you didn’t know faceroll stacking is enough to beat any dungeon. It doesn’t matter how old raids become, they will never be as explotable and as easy as dungeons.

Unless you were carried by 9 very experienced players.

First: stacking is actually a bad idea on bosses most of the time
Second: Wethopsu didn’t get carried by anyone, I’d advise you watch his youtube videos

Some of the time. I never said stacking was the most viable or the fastest but it’s the easiest and it works on virtually any boss that stands still. And anyone can do it.

How can he prove that it took him two tries? That is what I doubt. Not that he did beat him. So unless he has a way to prove that, I don’t know what looking at his youtube channel will accomplish. I know who he is.

Am I supposed to take someone seriously that legitimately thinks raids are not much harder than dungeons? You can be a skilled player and still be full of kitten to prove a point.

Kagamiku.9731:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Kagamiku.9731:

Wethospu.6437:

When I did AC first time my group spent like 2 hours on Kholer until we quit. When I did Gorseval first time we got it on second try.

Not to mention a huge amount of topics complaning about too hard dungeon difficulty and oneshots.

Even if you didn’t know faceroll stacking is enough to beat any dungeon. It doesn’t matter how old raids become, they will never be as explotable and as easy as dungeons.

Unless you were carried by 9 very experienced players.

First: stacking is actually a bad idea on bosses most of the time
Second: Wethopsu didn’t get carried by anyone, I’d advise you watch his youtube videos

Some of the time. I never said stacking was the most viable or the fastest but it’s the easiest and it works on virtually any boss that stands still. And anyone can do it.

May I ask how you think it makes a boss easier when you stack? Also, I wasn’t saying Wethopsu did do it on his second try or anything, I’m gonna stay out of that.

Because any boss with a hard hitting skill has a noticeable tell and is generally easily avoided by dodging into him. The rest of their attacks are negligible and easily tankable. And stacking assures you get full party buffs and heals from not being too spread out. It’s best for pugs because they’re used to it and it works.

Kagamiku.9731:

Because any boss with a hard hitting skill has a noticeable tell and is generally easily avoided by dodging into him. The rest of their attacks are negligible and easily tankable. And stacking assures you get full party buffs and heals from not being too spread out. It’s best for pugs because they’re used to it and it works.

You can dodge when you don’t stack, still easily tank the tankable attacks just as well when not stacking, still reach the party buffs and heals when not being exactly stacked up. Just one thing tho to note is what most people call stacking is actually LoSing.

I was pointing out easily dodgeable, because it’s just as easy to dodge an attack while on top of the boss then when you are spread out. The biggest benefit of stacking with pugs is the party buffs and the easy access to res’ing the downed players. You don’t need to be ontop of eachother for party buffs but when you’re playing with pugs and you’re not stacking, some will start to use ranged attacks and spread too far out. And that not only slows down the DPS but it weakens the melee tankiness as there are fewer people soaking up the damage. And fewer buffs/heals going around.

I think the pug definition of stacking is actually stacking. Forcing the boss to follow you next to a wall and dpsing him down. I’m referring to dungeons, not fractals. Higher level fractals are still stackable but the average pug group will range the bosses down. It’s slower, but not any harder.

Kagamiku.9731:

I was pointing out easily dodgeable, because it’s just as easy to dodge an attack while on top of the boss then when you are spread out. The biggest benefit of stacking with pugs is the party buffs and the easy access to res’ing the downed players. You don’t need to be ontop of eachother for party buffs but when you’re playing with pugs and you’re not stacking, some will start to use ranged attacks and spread too far out. And that not only slows down the DPS but it weakens the melee tankiness as there are fewer people soaking up the damage. And fewer buffs/heals going around.

I think the pug definition of stacking is actually stacking. Forcing the boss to follow you next to a wall and dpsing him down. I’m referring to dungeons, not fractals. Higher level fractals are still stackable but the average pug group will range the bosses down. It’s slower, but not any harder.

" You don’t need to be ontop of eachother for party buffs but when you’re playing with pugs and you’re not stacking, some will start to use ranged attacks and spread too far out."

So your saying stacking is facerole because otherwise pugs start to range? Because melee is somehow more facerole than RANGE?!?!? Well…..

It’s slower, never said it was harder. Stacking is both quick and easy.

Kagamiku.9731:

It’s slower, never said it was harder. Stacking is both quick and easy.

Here is a quote from you:

“but it’s the easiest and it works on virtually any boss”

I meant compared to meleeing and not stacking. I thought that was obvious. If you just attack the boss where he’s standing, half will try to melee and half will try to range when the going gets tough and it will hurt everyone.

Kagamiku.9731:

I meant compared to meleeing and not stacking. I thought that was obvious. If you just attack the boss where he’s standing, half will try to melee and half will try to range when the going gets tough and it will hurt everyone.

So your saying melee stacking is easier than melee while not stacking? Your first sentence here could be taken two ways so I just want to make sure. Either way, my whole point was your whole original sentence about stacking was heavily implying that dungeons were so easy that you could facerole stack on them when stacking hardly does anything a lot of the time.

In the end, it’s easier for pugs because that’s what they’re used to. The fact that you can stack on a boss and kill them without doing hardly anything else…Is what makes dungeons faceroll. Bosses are so predictable that that’s all you need to do to win.

And that’s the point I was making.

Kagamiku.9731:

In the end, it’s easier for pugs because that’s what they’re used to. The fact that you can stack on a boss and kill them without doing hardly anything else…Is what makes dungeons faceroll. Bosses are so predictable that that’s all you need to do to win.

And that’s the point I was making.

No, dungeons are still facerole even when not stacking. And the only reason stacking would make a dungeon easier for a pug is if someone goes down but then again you have to take into account that people might not even be going down if they ranged it soooooooooo stacking doesn’t really do much even in pugs, and that’s not the reason as to why dungeons are faceroll.

Ranging is slower. I’m not even sure what you’re trying to argue anymore. You shouldn’t be able to stack on a boss and DPS him down in less than a minute. That’s a testament to how faceroll dungeons are.

/end

Kagamiku.9731:

Ranging is slower. I’m not even sure what you’re trying to argue anymore. You shouldn’t be able to stack on a boss and DPS him down in less than a minute. That’s a testament to how faceroll dungeons are.

/end

Your either saying stacking makes a dungeon easier or faster. I’m saying, this is hardly the case. Your first reason as to why it was faster was because then everyone get’s the party buffs because they wouldn’t range. If a pug is bad enough to range if they weren’t stacking you can bet they won’t be using party buffs, and if they are smart enough to use buffs then you can bet they would also be smart enough to stay within radius of the buffs. The second reason you had as to why it was faster and easier was because you can revive them faster which is true, but if you were all ranging if you didn’t stack then you would have a lot less pressure meaning you might not even have gone down. So stacking is hardly easier or faster even in really bad groups. That’s all I was trying to point out. That’s not to say dungeons aren’t faceroll, because they are, it’s just they aren’t faceroll because of stacking. One more thing I would like to address is this: “Ranging is slower”. This is only the case if either A: the group would range so far away that they wouldn’t get group buffs if they were provided ( if a group is bad enough to range why would they be smart enough to provide buffs? ), or if the group would be running melee weapons in melee instead of ranged weapons. My point is, people who wanted to melee would still melee even if not stacking, and people who would range would still use there ranged weapons just in melee.

The bad pugs benefit from the good pugs by staying in range of the good pugs. I’ve done over a thousand pug runs. One warrior with phalanx strength is all that’s needed to make a huge difference. I know how dungeons with pugs work.

And no, if they’re in melee range they’re going to melee. It’s not like they’re only carrying a ranged weapon. Ranging is just safer, but once they realize their HP isn’t really dropping much while stacked (and when they down it’s easy access to reviving them), they’ll stay in it meleeing with the rest of us.

And ranging is slower buffs or no buffs. Ranged weapons do less damage, that is a fact. They sacrifice damage for the safety of distance.

y’know what, I don’t even care. This seems like a pointless debate and just argument for the sake or argument.

Theorizing here. ANet has shown a profound reluctance to make difficulty tiers for content. However, in the only game that other games look to there are heroic raids and pug raids. Why did Blizz depart from their previous approach to raids? The only reason I can see is demand. ANet has thought it was immune to MMO standards before. They’ve been proven wrong some of those times. “Because it’s fun” and flat max-stat gear acquisition are all you need to know.

Will ANet learn that it’s better to offer tiers of content for various degrees of skill and interest? Who can say. However, if their goal is to please more players, they will have to.

Kagamiku.9731:

The bad pugs benefit from the good pugs by staying in range of the good pugs. I’ve done over a thousand pug runs. One warrior with phalanx strength is all that’s needed to make a huge difference. I know how dungeons with pugs work.

And no, if they’re in melee range they’re going to melee. It’s not like they’re only carrying a ranged weapon. Ranging is just safer, but once they realize their HP isn’t really dropping much while stacked, they’ll stay in it meleeing with the rest of us.

y’know what, I don’t even care. This seems like a pointless debate and just arguement for the sake or arguement.

“And no, if they’re in melee range they’re going to melee. It’s not like they’re only carrying a ranged weapon. Ranging is just safer, but once they realize their HP isn’t really dropping much while stacked, they’ll stay in it meleeing with the rest of us.”

Your presuming a bad pug would be smart enough to realize that a melee weapon is most of the time better than a ranged weapon. If a pug realized that, he/she would be meleeing either way.

“The bad pugs benefit from the good pugs by staying in range of the good pugs.”

Again, your presuming a bad pug stays at max range unless stacking. This isn’t always the case. In addition, why would a smart player that runs PS warrior be going into a group that max ranges?

Even if you were right about the above which I hope I showed why your not, it wouldn’t mean that melee stacking is easier than ranging.

And the moment you realize I didn’t mean they’re faceroll because of stacking, and that the fact you can stack to defeat a dungeon is proof that they’re faceroll…You will realize how pointless this debate it.

Kagamiku.9731:

And the moment you realize I didn’t mean they’re faceroll because of stacking, and that the fact you can stack to defeat a dungeon is proof that they’re faceroll…You will realize how pointless this debate it.

" and that the fact you can stack to defeat a dungeon is proof that they’re faceroll"

Yeah I think we agree on that, but I still don’t think we agree on the fact that stacking on a boss doesn’t make it easier or faster for pugs most of the time. Either way I don’t think there’s much point in discussing about how it does or does not make a dungeon faster or easier I think we clearly disagree on it and I don’t want to spend another 20 comments on it xD.

Kagamiku.9731:

Wethospu.6437:

When I did AC first time my group spent like 2 hours on Kholer until we quit. When I did Gorseval first time we got it on second try.

Not to mention a huge amount of topics complaning about too hard dungeon difficulty and oneshots.

And now dieing in AC is virtually unheard of. You were A.) new to the game back then and B.) didn’t know how to dodge the one attack that can actually kill you. Had you the experience as you do now back then, you would have noticed his obvious 1-shot tell and easily completed that dungeon. Even if you didn’t know faceroll stacking is enough to beat any dungeon. It doesn’t matter how old raids become, they will never be as explotable and as easy as dungeons. Because they have mechanics that require good team coordination and a skilled dps rotation.

While the raid bosses will always give a risk of death regardless how experienced you are. Because 1 person on team failing means whole team fails.

Gorseval on second try? Sorry, that’s bs. Unless you were carried by 9 very experienced players. Unless all ten of the people on your team have the raid boss memorized, you’re not beating gorseval on second try. A skilled raid group without experience on the boss would take far, far more than two tries. And even if you do have it memorized, so many things can go wrong in that fight. Like gliders not deploying or orbs in terrible spots.

Dungeons are now 3 years old. I suggest we get back to this once the first raid wing is 3 years old. If not, let’s keep the comparison fair and compare 1 month old raids to 1 month old dungeons.

I have never stated that raids are as easy as dungeons. That’s clearly not true. However wait several months until people get more experienced and they should be easily puggable. At some point I’m sure people can 9- or even 8-man raids smoothly. At that point having 2 useless players won’t make a big difference.

Yes, the 9 other players had done the fight before. Yes, I had no idea what I was supposed to do when I was told “you go bottom right”. Yes, I got constantly knocked for not dodging. Yes, I walked to orbs and died horribly.

But on the second try? I knew what I was supposed to do. I knew when to dodge. I knew what orbs and eggs do. It’s not really that hard.

Also what is this coordination people are talking about? For me it seems that you have a pre-defined role and then you execute it without really caring what others do.

Raid bosses are not that much more difficult than (better) dungeon bosses, the challenging part is to find out strategies that work and that is the exact reason why we need frequent new instanced PvE.

We took 11-12 hours at Gorseval before we got a kill, on monday we did it in our first attempt. Not because we are amazing but because you have enough leeway

Except you wouldn’t know what to do on the second try if you were playing with other members inexperienced with the raid. Not only did they explain it to you, but they got you far enough into the phases to where you could see what to expect. That doesn’t happen in a pug group where half of the players have done it a few times, and others none at all.
Each new phase brings something different you need to understand and figure out.

And to the average players, dungeons are still fairly easy. Raids? Because a solid DPS rotation and dodging knockdowns truly matters I can see the majority of players never being able to finish raids at all. The timer will be the reason raids will always be monumentally harder than dungeons. Gorseval’s timer isn’t loose enough to where kitten damage can pull it off.
_

11-12 hours is a massive amount of time to spend on one boss, cheezy. What dungeon boss would you consider one of the better bosses? Lupi? I beat him with a pug party on my first try because while he is tough for pugs in melee (barring no reflects), he’s still easily kitable while ranged. I honestly can’t think of a tough dungeon boss that’s both difficult in melee and ranged.

Please read my previous post over and over until you get it. There is no point for me to repeat it if you ignore it anyways.

I read it. And I stated you only knew what to do because you were with an experienced group. Is that not true? Or are you referring to something else?

The biggest thing with dungeons when they first came out was not their difficulty, it was player skill. Everyone was new. That’s not the case anymore. There are many skilled players that took dozens of attempts to get through each raid boss. Bring a new dungeon to the game now that’s on part with any of the current dungeons and it will be completed within the hour.

And those pugs were not experienced at all? I don’t think so

I was in that party with Weth and I can assure you, would three of us not have made a mistake in phase 3 we would have killed Gorseval on the first try there as well.

That was a longggg time ago. I can’t say they were all that skilled if they never attempted to stack on lupi.

It still took 11-12 hours to get it down to where you can beat him consistently. And gorseval will never be a boss that you will have 100% success with like dungeons are. Sure, Raids are all about remembering patterns and racing the timer. Both a skill requirement that dungeons lack. Once you have the fight down to memory and you’re able to hit the DPS check, then sure, it won’t be a big deal…but there is a ton more you need to master with raids then there is with dungeons.

The aetherblade path in TA was completed by any pug group willing to commit an hour or two on it the first day it was released. And that’s the dungeon no one wants to run.

I’m pretty sure 1-2 hours was for high end guilds. I doubt first timers would get past ooze puzzle in an hour.

Kagamiku.9731:

I read it. And I stated you only knew what to do because you were with an experienced group. Is that not true? Or are you referring to something else?

The biggest thing with dungeons when they first came out was not their difficulty, it was player skill. Everyone was new. That’s not the case anymore. There are many skilled players that took dozens of attempts to get through each raid boss. Bring a new dungeon to the game now that’s on part with any of the current dungeons and it will be completed within the hour.

Whether I beat Gorseval on second try is a completely anectodal evidence. Discussing about it won’t get us any further.

Dungeons weren’t hard just because people were new. They were hard because people were new to that kind of a gameplay. People started with open world PvE. They were able to beat that with bad builds and bad gameplay. Then they enter dungeons and get completely wrecked. People had to gear better and learn some basic rotations, buffs, etc., perhaps even dodging. So people improve and beat dungeons easily. Then they enter raids and get completely wrecked. So what happens then?

I say people will be able to improve and get even better builds. They get some ascended pieces, use consumables, learn to move out of AoEs and so on. And then, they will be able to beat current raids easily. You say most people won’t get good enough. Only time will tell.

The reason why I think raids are easy is because I already have the required experience. I have done lots of solos, even some where I rely on mobility. It’s not a problem for me to look at the boss and see what he is doing or move out of AoEs. Average dungeon runner won’t have this experience, yet.

Wethospu.6437:

When I did AC first time my group spent like 2 hours on Kholer until we quit. When I did Gorseval first time we got it on second try.

Not to mention a huge amount of topics complaning about too hard dungeon difficulty and oneshots.

Well I am not asking for a nerf to Spirit Vale. I actually enjoy it. I just want some other raids that aren’t as hardcore.

Or just remake the dungeons to have similar mechanics and enforce roles.

Renn.8241:

Dungeons and Fractals ARE your easier Raids.

This. ^

If they make an easy version of raids, then I’m done. That’s one of the big reasons I quit WoW.