Guild Wars 2

Woljnir.7810:

My only problem with stacking is now people want to stack “everything.” Best example is CoF 2 after the devourer nests those 3 Flameforged whatevers you need to kill in the little room. Never ONCE have those 3 EVER been a problem, but now it’s stack around the corner or gtfo.

Trying not to rant about stacking, as it actually is pretty helpful at time especially in CM. I don’t go down NEAR as many times as I used to pre stacking in certain areas, but it’s painful to have every group I join feel the need to stack easy bosses or enemies.

I also like people stacking at Kohler, who do never dodge or block his spinning move.
3 runs in a row…
“Sorry to break it to you guys, but we still don’t have a guardian.”
Well, only half the guardians, i run AC with, use aegis there at the right time, so i just dodge anyways.

wauwi.9162:

Woljnir.7810:

My only problem with stacking is now people want to stack “everything.” Best example is CoF 2 after the devourer nests those 3 Flameforged whatevers you need to kill in the little room. Never ONCE have those 3 EVER been a problem, but now it’s stack around the corner or gtfo.

Trying not to rant about stacking, as it actually is pretty helpful at time especially in CM. I don’t go down NEAR as many times as I used to pre stacking in certain areas, but it’s painful to have every group I join feel the need to stack easy bosses or enemies.

I also like people stacking at Kohler, who do never dodge or block his spinning move.
3 runs in a row…
“Sorry to break it to you guys, but we still don’t have a guardian.”
Well, only half the guardians, i run AC with, use aegis there at the right time, so i just dodge anyways.

Dodge? why? it’s AC and you can CC him and kill him before he does anything

only half joking, sure dodge if you need, but really AC has become a joke with that change to scaling, my group quite literally just CCs and burn and it’s almost never a problem unless he happens to dodge the CC then we have to actually play right.

Jerus.4350:

wauwi.9162:

I also like people stacking at Kohler, who do never dodge or block his spinning move.
3 runs in a row…
“Sorry to break it to you guys, but we still don’t have a guardian.”
Well, only half the guardians, i run AC with, use aegis there at the right time, so i just dodge anyways.

Dodge? why? it’s AC and you can CC him and kill him before he does anything

only half joking, sure dodge if you need, but really AC has become a joke with that change to scaling, my group quite literally just CCs and burn and it’s almost never a problem unless he happens to dodge the CC then we have to actually play right.

Because of my eternal kindness, i don’t bother which build or classes im running AC with, so Kohler won’t die before he does at least 2 Whirl attacks and of course he got full deciance stacks, before he does it, so i mostly can’t interrupt it.
It gets even funnier, if necros fear him (sometimes, into the strong hands of the cave troll), if he’s out of defiance.

I’m also a power ranger with nothing but zephyr or SoR, SotW and FS, so not dodging or blocking the attack leaves me with like 300HP. :P
He downs most of my beloved PUGs with his whirling blades.

All i ask for is, that if you can’t prevent it, at least don’t get hit by it.

what if they actualy made that a stat like vitality increased endurance regeneration rate and toughness increased the duration of defensive ability?

Not by a large ammount but like lets say running vitality amulet would give you about +40 to your endurence regeneration rate and the default endurance regen rate would be lower.

Toughness could actualy manage condition duration on self, A character witheout toughness would endure more condition duration. It could also make a few defensive move such as warrior shield block scale up (for exemple curent would be 5 second im just giving out random numbers, but with toughness the duration would be increased by about 20 to 40%)

Healing power already scale but does so badly that it is meaningless i just think these 3 stat needs to be given a meaning.

Id also like to point out that less endurance regen would also mean less easy access to active defense for glass cannon class. Because lets face it a character who lacks vitality should also somewhat lack energitic movement and as such likely move slower or less often when trying to avoid blows. How agile do you think a guy whos sick is?

oxtred.7658:

Hard mode appeals more experienced players, and experienced players are a majority of berserker users,

DPS is the most common played role in any RPG game (reason why most MMOs have extra rewards for tanks and healers, they earn more than dps because nobody plays that). Besides that, you would be surprised by the amount of inexperienced players that read strats online, or come to the forum for guidance, or are being told in dungeons or in guild chat that they should equip zerk because its the only worth gear… Not only experienced players use zerk, almost everyone is now wearing it.

oxtred.7658:

because they understood how the game works. So no, hardmode won’t make sentinel magically useful.

They understand how the game works now, which is like understanding Simon. There is an illusion of skill but actually you learn by hard.

With enemies and encounters that improvise on the go (or enough variables to make it look random), players would loose the ability to predict fights, thus, dodge would stop being a god savior as players would tend to miss dodges more often. If an enemy hits you consistently every 4 seconds, you don’t need skill.. you just need to learn how to count to 4. Same applies for skill sequences and mob party composition… if (lets say) Arah, instead of having the same type of raisens in every pull you get random classes, encounters would be always different and zerk would be really hard to play.

I’m not against zerk, on the contrary, I’d love to see zerk players actually recognized for being it instead of just being the norm.

Point is, the game has many MANY “things” to play with and change the game board, if they want to, they can turn the table to wherever they want.

kyubi, that would just be adding defensive strength to them, that wouldn’t help, it’d just cause problems in PVP

What would be needed is a change that really couldn’t happen but it’d need something like boon effectiveness and dominance stats. Boon effectiveness being something that increases it, something like double the crit chance on fury if you spec full up on it or something. Then Dominance being what determines your control ability such that you need X dominance to do this, or increasing the duration of the control effects and increasing the amount of defiance it strips.

That’s just not this game though.

Jerus.4350:

kyubi, that would just be adding defensive strength to them, that wouldn’t help, it’d just cause problems in PVP

What would be needed is a change that really couldn’t happen but it’d need something like boon effectiveness and dominance stats. Boon effectiveness being something that increases it, something like double the crit chance on fury if you spec full up on it or something. Then Dominance being what determines your control ability such that you need X dominance to do this, or increasing the duration of the control effects and increasing the amount of defiance it strips.

That’s just not this game though.

I made a post in the suggestion forums (silly me…) last year proposing Boon Potency as a stat. Same idea.. scaling the power of the buffs you provide.

Also I proposed to change Defiance and instead of being a counter, being a second bar below HP bar on bosses. Make in a way where a normal CC would reduce 20% but with (I like your “dominance”) more dominance, you can remove more and more Defiance from the boss making CC much much easier… also some CC could improve and start knocking down for extra seconds, etc.. but that’s another balance nightmare.

Power-Toughness-Boon Duration would be really really OP in zerg wars.

Anyhow, I really like to see a new dungeon based on the new mobs in Dry Top. They have interesting anti-stacking mechanics.

wauwi.9162:

I also like people stacking at Kohler, who do never dodge or block his spinning move.
3 runs in a row…
“Sorry to break it to you guys, but we still don’t have a guardian.”
Well, only half the guardians, i run AC with, use aegis there at the right time, so i just dodge anyways.

or just WoR/smokescreen/temporal curtain(traited)/whirling defenses/ some other projectile stopper i’ve overlooked.

Stop the scorpion wires, and he doesn’t spin.
Reflects for 0×3 times btw. don’t even need to time aegis.. lol

Iris Ng.9845:

Power-Toughness-Boon Duration would be really really OP in zerg wars.

Anyhow, I really like to see a new dungeon based on the new mobs in Dry Top. They have interesting anti-stacking mechanics.

I think five people in a dungeon guild should get together and try LoSing large groups of mordrem in open world or an LS instance or whatever, and see how it goes. I don’t actually know if they’re anti-stacking, they hurt when soloing but I feel like the firepower of five players would just melt them.

maha.7902:

Iris Ng.9845:

Power-Toughness-Boon Duration would be really really OP in zerg wars.

Anyhow, I really like to see a new dungeon based on the new mobs in Dry Top. They have interesting anti-stacking mechanics.

I think five people in a dungeon guild should get together and try LoSing large groups of mordrem in open world or an LS instance or whatever, and see how it goes. I don’t actually know if they’re anti-stacking, they hurt when soloing but I feel like the firepower of five players would just melt them.

Agreed, mordrem dungeon would be awesome fun!
Apart from reward balance, and a fair number of bug fixes, existing dungeons aren’t bad. Just need variety!

As for LoS-ing mordrem. Might be easier to do in an LS instance, since there will be fewer randoms coming up and grabbing aggro etc. Can’t say as I noticed anything like this though. Then again i wasnt watching for it

As for anti-stacking.. Thats basically anti-melee. stacking is just the result of 5 people melee-ing..

Nothing well of corruption/null field and a few ice bows cant handle.

@Artemis and that is a problem because at the end of the day
anti-stacking is essentially anti-melee (except when you stack ranged)

DonQuack.9025:

Nothing well of corruption/null field and a few ice bows cant handle.

@Artemis and that is a problem because at the end of the day
anti-stacking is essentially anti-melee (except when you stack ranged)

Plenty of times in an fotm 50 I would consider range over melee. OR alternate as best I can.

It’s just a matter of skill of the player and the team to be able to melee (therefore stack) or not. I don’t have any issue with skilled players being able to melee stack.

sometimes it seems easier to melee stack, EG bloom/molten boss duo. But that is still only possible because of a team that knows how to avoid the aoes, throw up reflects, execute very high damage bursts (which in my experience, very few do). Its easier when people play well. Working as intended?

Just need more content to keep the veterans occupied as well as the new players.

We’ve had the NPE patch.
GOGO EPE (existing expert player experience) patch?

Guys arguing with that guy… you have no idea what you’re getting yourself into.
Or maybe you do and you’re into self-harming.
Tehe.

maha.7902:

Iris Ng.9845:

Power-Toughness-Boon Duration would be really really OP in zerg wars.

Anyhow, I really like to see a new dungeon based on the new mobs in Dry Top. They have interesting anti-stacking mechanics.

I think five people in a dungeon guild should get together and try LoSing large groups of mordrem in open world or an LS instance or whatever, and see how it goes. I don’t actually know if they’re anti-stacking, they hurt when soloing but I feel like the firepower of five players would just melt them.

One of the thrashers can only be damaged from behind. However, he constantly spins forward and leaves a poison trail that sorta hits like Champion Risen Broodmother (aka. FGS pre-nerfed). The other mordrem thrasher spikes really hard with his 1200 range roots. The mordrem wolves are pretty mean. Along with constant knock down, they also have massive retaliation up time. The husk is pretty meh, but if it’s anything like the Husk in Triple Troubles, it could be more interesting.

The there is also this Giant Beetle which can only damage from the front but the knock down skill from an elite can deal 15k to an unsuspected ele. It’s pretty hard to cleave them in a group as they will try to surround you and pingpong you.

One of the best bosses there is the Light – infused Golem. Pretty OP. I have no idea how to deal with it. Another is the Colocal Queen, which hops, deal damage and knock down anyone within 600 range, and do a freaking 1500 range cone damage.

I think the best challenge to test them out is the event where Prosperity Town was infested with the three Mordrem Vet. It’s easy to lure each of them to kill, but having to LOS 3 of them at the same time will be a nightmare.

Iris Ng.9845:

One of the best bosses there is the Light – infused Golem. Pretty OP. I have no idea how to deal with it.

Huh? A single Mordrem Wolf gives more trouble than that poor thing :s

You no kidding! proof?

P.S. I mean the champion in this event: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_the_light-infused_Inquest_golem_blocking_passage_to_the_ley_line_hub
If I’m right, the attack is unblockable, on top of frequent AoE blind and evade.

Uhh, that light-golem is just a Veteran, not a Champion. Unless he scales up to a Champion when enough people are around?

In any case, from the times I’ve fought him I find him extremely easy to deal with. His really damaging attack is the fire field; just keep on moving and you should be fine. His Sun Beam attack also does more damage the closer you are to him, so a ranged weapon is ideal. If he throws that black hole at you, dodge forward and run the other direction so you’re not caught within the pull field. (The one time the light golem did manage to down me was when I happened to get caught in his pull field while still trapped within the fire field.) You can ignore his Sun Dash attack; it looks scary, but it’s basically just a gap closer that doesn’t deal any damage.

EDIT: I just realised there is another light-golem boss in the Inquest lab to the west. Is that what you’re talking about?

Yeah. That is the one. The champion spawns during the Sandstorm I think.

Ohhh, now I get it. It must be one of those “unique bosses” that spawns during the Sandstorm, like the Champ Drake Broodmother. I’ve never faced the Champ version, so I guess I’ll withhold my judgment on it then.

Mesket.5728:

hybrid.5027:

What does wearing tanky gear have to do with speccing for support? Does Sentinel’s gear make your Wall of Reflect last longer?

Speaking conceptually, the faster you divorce yourself from the gear = playstyle mindset the better you’ll be. I mean it’s only been two years and I still have to put this fire out on a weekly basis so maybe I’m hoping for people to learn something they never will.

Maybe after 2 years you will realize that you are wrong? Its an MMORPG after all, gearing, stat/trait/perk/talent (w/e it’s called in dif. games) build and play-style goes hand by hand. It is defined by genre and its not like ANet wanted to changed that, they designed the game wrong and ended up where we are. The fact we all use the same dps gear is not a design feature, it’s a symptom of a badly designed game. You can’t blame players for playing an MMORPG like an MMORPG.

The problem for you is that I am not wrong at all. I am describing the game as it is, based on the mechanics that actually exist within the real game. You’re describing a fantasy scenario based on other games and other mechanics and philosophies that do not exist in Guild Wars 2.

So I’ll say it again, the faster you can divorce yourself from the concept that gear informs your playstyle the happily you’ll be and the more you’ll enjoy this game. Until then, you’ll be spitting into the wind.

hybrid.5027:

Mesket.5728:

hybrid.5027:

What does wearing tanky gear have to do with speccing for support? Does Sentinel’s gear make your Wall of Reflect last longer?

Speaking conceptually, the faster you divorce yourself from the gear = playstyle mindset the better you’ll be. I mean it’s only been two years and I still have to put this fire out on a weekly basis so maybe I’m hoping for people to learn something they never will.

Maybe after 2 years you will realize that you are wrong? Its an MMORPG after all, gearing, stat/trait/perk/talent (w/e it’s called in dif. games) build and play-style goes hand by hand. It is defined by genre and its not like ANet wanted to changed that, they designed the game wrong and ended up where we are. The fact we all use the same dps gear is not a design feature, it’s a symptom of a badly designed game. You can’t blame players for playing an MMORPG like an MMORPG.

The problem for you is that I am not wrong at all. I am describing the game as it is, based on the mechanics that actually exist within the real game. You’re describing a fantasy scenario based on other games and other mechanics and philosophies that do not exist in Guild Wars 2.

So I’ll say it again, the faster you can divorce yourself from the concept that gear informs your playstyle the happily you’ll be and the more you’ll enjoy this game. Until then, you’ll be spitting into the wind.

GW2 was designed with gear being independent of role within a group.
Always has been. (Hopefully) always will be.

GW2 was never meant to be a traditional mmorpg.

Anet decided they didnt like (traditional) trinity.
Why?
Because everyone wants to dish out the big damage.
Only a minority truly enjoy being forced to tank or heal only.

Whats this? gw2 makes you responsible for your own healing!?

It gives you dodges, blinds, aegis, amongst other mechanics (referred to as support – affecting your allies, and crowd control – affecting foes). These still require coordination and skill (or at least knowledge and reflexes) to use in place of traditional tanking.

As a pure dps-er you are forced to rely on your team to help you stay alive.
As a support class, you still dish out respectable damage, but you are under heavy pressure to keep your team alive.
Crowd Control (CC) is pretty much the same, must have skill to utilize properly.

Best of all? You can (theoretically) do this is any gear stat you like.
It just happens that berserker provides the highest dps, but requires the best utilization of support and control. Because this also makes things fastest (best time:Reward ratio) the best players want this.

The average player should be in a mixture of stats including knights;Valkyrie;celestial;cavaliers etc, in addition to some zerker gear.
Sadly conditions suck for the most part, and even a condi build can get more dps using direct damage stats).

Seems people are just mad because they can’t run full zerk without dying (shame. l2p).

Gear =/= play style.

hybrid.5027:

Mesket.5728:

hybrid.5027:

What does wearing tanky gear have to do with speccing for support? Does Sentinel’s gear make your Wall of Reflect last longer?

Speaking conceptually, the faster you divorce yourself from the gear = playstyle mindset the better you’ll be. I mean it’s only been two years and I still have to put this fire out on a weekly basis so maybe I’m hoping for people to learn something they never will.

Maybe after 2 years you will realize that you are wrong? Its an MMORPG after all, gearing, stat/trait/perk/talent (w/e it’s called in dif. games) build and play-style goes hand by hand. It is defined by genre and its not like ANet wanted to changed that, they designed the game wrong and ended up where we are. The fact we all use the same dps gear is not a design feature, it’s a symptom of a badly designed game. You can’t blame players for playing an MMORPG like an MMORPG.

The problem for you is that I am not wrong at all. I am describing the game as it is, based on the mechanics that actually exist within the real game. You’re describing a fantasy scenario based on other games and other mechanics and philosophies that do not exist in Guild Wars 2.

So I’ll say it again, the faster you can divorce yourself from the concept that gear informs your playstyle the happily you’ll be and the more you’ll enjoy this game. Until then, you’ll be spitting into the wind.

Imagine for a second you are in total control of ANet and GW2 was not released yet… you know there is a budget, human hours to be allocated, and you see the project items… one of them being gear stats and balance.

Knowing what you know now… Would you let them waste that time and money developing the number of gear sets we have now? would you tell them to stop designing more stat combinations?

Ok,… the game is out, “the damage is done”… what would you do now? you have worthless gear sets out there and a game that doesn’t match the tools you are providing. Wouldn’t it be good to add or modify content so more gear options are worth using? wouldn’t the game be much more interesting if every gear set is used?

Its not just me who needs to divorce from the idea, but the hundreds coming to complain about the same thing every now and then, and the thousands that are being called baddies because they think they are playing the game well choosing other gear sets thinking this is an RPG and they have options. If I’m wrong please tell me why do the others sets even exist? (be smarter than the guy who said it was for pvp, while they are pve rewards).

I know how the game is. I have 7 lvl 80s all equip in the same way, all full zerk and it is boring as hell…

The gear stats aren’t worthless at all. In pvp every amulet is viable in one build or another. In WvW the full gamut of gearsets are viable. In PvE, among experienced players there is little variety, however among beginers the concept of tanky-gear-as-training-wheels not only exists but it works perfectly as intended.

Would I have designed the game differently? Probably so, I would have designed the game without gear stats and made all character building choices locked to traits, runes and sigils. But that isn’t relevant because its not going to change, won’t change and SHOULDN’T change. This is the game we have, and it’s kitten good actually. I can’t make you quit the game dude, but if you don’t enjoy the game for what it is you’re simply driving yourself crazy by being frustrated by what it isn’t. I would suggest you find a game you like better and be happy, but I doubt you’ll listen.

hybrid.5027:

The gear stats aren’t worthless at all. In pvp every amulet is viable in one build or another. In WvW the full gamut of gearsets are viable. In PvE, among experienced players there is little variety, however among beginers the concept of tanky-gear-as-training-wheels not only exists but it works perfectly as intended.

Lets agree to disagree… I strongly doubt it was intended this way. If the sets were for pvp and wvw they would’ve been there to begin with and if those were supposed to be trainig wheels in pve then zerk should be all over the place and its only acquirable in certin places. Clearly they intended a game where everything was equal and made a horrible job designing content. Dungeons are terrible compared to other games dungeons, they could’ve done and empty room with a boss and it would be the same thing. A lot of resources wasted because they lack in one area.

hybrid.5027:

Would I have designed the game differently? Probably so, I would have designed the game without gear stats and made all character building choices locked to traits, runes and sigils. But that isn’t relevant because its not going to change, won’t change and SHOULDN’T change. This is the game we have, and it’s kitten good actually. I can’t make you quit the game dude, but if you don’t enjoy the game for what it is you’re simply driving yourself crazy by being frustrated by what it isn’t. I would suggest you find a game you like better and be happy, but I doubt you’ll listen.

That would’ve been a different approach and its totally viable. You say this is the game we have, well in the game we have there are other sets and players choose to use them. This is an MMORPG and people play it like so, don’t pick on players who chooses to use other sets, they are just playing the game we have as it is.

I like the game, I just wish it was better,… as it is, it feels like a Mario Bros without platforms or a Mario Kart without gadgets.

Except Robert Hrouda already said that it’s safer to use tanky gear but if you can handle it then it’s perfectly possible to use offensive gear. This suggests the defensive gear as training wheels explanation is the correct one.

I don’t see how they intended everything to be equal when everything has flat out different stats entirely. You don’t make a set with no defensive stats and full offense, and then one which has boon duration and healing power and then try to claim everything is equal, that’s insane.

Mesket.5728:

Ok,… the game is out, “the damage is done”… what would you do now? you have worthless gear sets out there and a game that doesn’t match the tools you are providing. Wouldn’t it be good to add or modify content so more gear options are worth using? wouldn’t the game be much more interesting if every gear set is used?

Condi stats can be useful in PVE, just not in 5 man dungeons. It’s very good in solo situations in Dungeons, vs high toughness Husks at Triple Trouble (if i’m not mistaken), Soldiers works best for Teq, even healing power has some situational use (for bombing heals on NPCs that would otherwise cause the event to fail).

Mesket.5728:

I like the game, I just wish it was better,… as it is, it feels like a Mario Bros without platforms or a Mario Kart without gadgets.

You should start solo/duo/trio dungeons without a Thief. I think you’ll find the dungeon design isn’t bad at all.

Anything with choices will inevitably have a best choice.
continue to whine about there being a best choice, and anet just might listen, and remove your ability to make that choice at all.

I wonder how many forum rage threads would pop up then?

maha.7902:

Except Robert Hrouda already said…

what this guy said means little… Don’t idealize him; he did it wrong, and no longer works for Anet.

maha.7902:

You don’t make a set with no defensive stats and full offense, and then one which has boon duration and healing power and then try to claim everything is equal, that’s insane.

Yes you do. It’s called balancing. Balance its not only comparing players against players but also players against environment. If you provide hammers, the world should have nails… in GW2 they provided us hammers, screw-driver and wrenches while there are only nails in the world. People using Screw-drivers and Wrenches wants something to have fun as well.

Then force every inexperienced player to learn the game as a full berserker ele. Your problem is solved, we have hammers and nails. Though we loose half the population.

what this guy said means little… Don’t idealize him; he did it wrong, and no longer works for Anet.

He was there for the initial development of the game and the initial intentions of the game, therefore I think his opinion is relevant.

Yes you do. It’s called balancing. Balance its not only comparing players against players but also players against environment. If you provide hammers, the world should have nails… in GW2 they provided us hammers, screw-driver and wrenches while there are only nails in the world. People using Screw-drivers and Wrenches wants something to have fun as well.

And in GW2, a game primarily balanced by PvP, the balancing is fine. Many stat combinations are used, many builds are used and all is well. This same stat diversity exists in WvW. In PvE, you are again allowed to use whatever you wish, but the option exists to go full offensive if you think you can handle it. Not all people can or want to, so they don’t. These are the people who will be using things like soldier, giver, cleric, etc. They want to be able to roleplay healers, they don’t want to have to dodge everything or they simply just can’t handle the reflexes required so they gear accordingly. The balance here is that all stats can complete content, but there are others that complete it quicker, and as it’s based around risk/reward (the glassier you are the faster you clear with all risks associated) the balance is fine. The fact that the risk isn’t that high is a side-effect of the game having the same instances for like two years, not an error in the design of the game.

hybrid.5027:

Mesket.5728:

I like the game, I just wish it was better,… as it is, it feels like a Mario Bros without platforms or a Mario Kart without gadgets.

You should start solo/duo/trio dungeons without a Thief. I think you’ll find the dungeon design isn’t bad at all.

I already did duos and I’m working on my solos (I’m old and my connection don’t help either :P ), its really fun and all but one thing doesn’t take the other.

I wouldn’t mind zerking behing the only stat set if running specific build in party didn’t become that much mendatory. Issue is the effectiveness gap between two build of a same class is so huge that its impossible to run anything else then the meta witheout getting finguer pointed as useless or noob regardless of how good you actualy are because the moment you don’t run the meta your actualy a reject. Where did anet lovely comment about ‘’you can be anything you want to be’’ gone to? Happens I started playing arch age of late and it seems you can actualy get up to 120 deferent class combination and all of them can actualy be very usefull in a party. Where did guild wars freedom to build trademark gone to eh? Choice of build and options been the trademark of this game for ages its anormal that the game limit you to the point you can no longuer play anything effective in a group but a single build. If I for exemple wanted to run a spirit weapon guardian effectively I should be able to do so same would go for condition enginers shortbow rangers blinding ashes ele and what not. Theres tons of possible build gimmick and this game and 99% of the available choice are bad just what is the guy who programmed this doing. If they actualy intended this game to be played monospec theyd have designed us like blizzard did world of warcraft and limited our build choice to a single one with predefined trait utility and weapon sets.

Its gone from play the build you want to go ahead and suck as any build you want.

Funny stuff is people will often bring in the argument that making all trait build viable force them to play how the others wants except all it does is allow people to actually have options of viable choice and allow some decent well needed variety in team (1 single viable build means you force people to play what you want or consider optimal).
If in a single instance a class can have 3 or 4 deferent build that can all perform a deferent duty effectively then we can indeed talk about class balance and variation of options.

kyubi.3620:

Happens I started playing arch age of late and it seems you can actualy get up to 120 deferent class combination and all of them can actualy be very usefull in a party.

haahahaaha

DonQuack.9025:

kyubi.3620:

Happens I started playing arch age of late and it seems you can actualy get up to 120 deferent class combination and all of them can actualy be very usefull in a party.

haahahaaha

yep dude you can be what you want in that game and it happens nobody actualy will care long as you do the job because no mather the build dps is pretty much similar across all class its more about what utility and effect you do then what damage you do (you a warrior/occult/witch? Well nice you do the same damage as the warrior/archer/mage only defrence is the way you do it).

Guild wars 2 should’ve been that way from the start. That’s not even funny that’s actualy sad. I say they either need to bring in about 20 more skill per profession or delete stat on gear to balance things out definitively. There guys no more issue with tank/dps/healer/support we all do the same kind of damage no mather the build and we all can actualy pull our weights based on our ability sets.

Actually, AA has like ten meta classes and then the rest of them are just average to ****-tier.

in theory anything that has a self heal in it does the job there might be incompatibilities but as a general rules most build work out quite well.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Anything with choices will inevitably have a best choice.

Yes, in a game bad designed that is what happens… now tell me which one is best in Mario Kart? you will see you have as many opinions as characters there are…That’s how you do a game. The balance is not just in the characters but also in the tracks. If tracks were simpler, Bowser and Kong would be best, since its all about who race faster. GW2 allows one set to be far superior, simply because the content allows it, not because the rules are set for one to be.

kyubi.3620:

Its gone from play the build you want to go ahead and suck as any build you want.

They never promised all builds would be equal. “Play how you want” meant that you could do all game modes and be rewarded. Period. That’s the original context of your statement.

If you think they EVER intended a completely random selection of gear and traits to be equally effective to a developed build you’re sadly mistaken. No game developer would ever be so stupid to say that all builds will be equally viable.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how MMOs work. No matter what the game, given a set environment (raids, world pvp, arenas etc) there will always be things that are slightly more effective than others. And the more complicated the character building process and more options you give players the wider the gap between good and bad is. Any time you give people options synergies will develop and certain sets of options will be inherently superior, that’s just a fact and if you think this isn’t inevitable in every game you’re dead wrong.

Though I will say, most other games hid their build imbalances behind gear grinds so a bad build with better gear will trump a good build with bad gear. Luckily gear quality is more or less irrelevant in GW2 and bad builds rise and fall on their merit rather than scrubs being able to be bailed out by gear grind.

maha.7902:

Mesket.5728:

what this guy said means little… Don’t idealize him; he did it wrong, and no longer works for Anet.

He was there for the initial development of the game and the initial intentions of the game, therefore I think his opinion is relevant.

You are taking his opinion after release, when he was trying to justify the horror design made. ANet are still wondering what the cat to do with conditions after the mess the original designers left.

maha.7902:

Mesket.5728:

Yes you do. It’s called balancing. Balance its not only comparing players against players but also players against environment. If you provide hammers, the world should have nails… in GW2 they provided us hammers, screw-driver and wrenches while there are only nails in the world. People using Screw-drivers and Wrenches wants something to have fun as well.

And in GW2, a game primarily balanced by PvP, the balancing is fine. Many stat combinations are used, many builds are used and all is well. This same stat diversity exists in WvW.

Simple NO. WvW reward was PVT gear while PVE reward was a vast diversity in gear sets… you say they get it backwards and release a game with the rewards mixed up? It took them quite some time, several months, to include the other sets in WvW as rewards. I hardly think pvp was the reason to put many sets ingame.

maha.7902:

The balance here is that all stats can complete content, but there are others that complete it quicker, and as it’s based around risk/reward (the glassier you are the faster you clear with all risks associated) the balance is fine. The fact that the risk isn’t that high is a side-effect of the game having the same instances for like two years, not an error in the design of the game.

We agree here. Though I wouldn’t blame time entirely. Did you went back to PVT when the first fractals were introduced? Or when the “new ones” where introduced? I agree that once you learn the game by hard, it becomes Simon… you count, you dodge and all risk is lost in the equation.

You are taking his opinion after release, when he was trying to justify the horror design made. ANet are still wondering what the cat to do with conditions after the mess the original designers left.

So he was justifying their design, and he was an ANet developer at the time.

So lets see. My opinion is based on the statement of a dev, your opinion is based purely on conjecture. I wonder which one has a higher chance of being correct?

Simple NO. WvW reward was PVT gear while PVE reward was a vast diversity in gear sets… you say they get it backwards and release a game with the rewards mixed up? It took them quite some time, several months, to include the other sets in WvW as rewards.

The rewards offered have nothing to do with build diversity. The fact of the matter is, people use all sorts of stat combinations all across this game, independent of whether there is soldier, assassin, cleric, valkyrie or whatever at the vendors.

We agree here. Though I wouldn’t blame time entirely. Did you went back to PVT when the first fractals were introduced? Or when the “new ones” where introduced?

No. But then, I and most of the forum regulars here aren’t your average player. As far as I’m aware, the high level fractal pug meta is just stacking PVT, though I rarely even play the game so I wouldn’t know for sure.

once you learn the game by hard, it becomes Simon… you count, you dodge and all risk is lost in the equation.

And this is not a slight against the game. This is basically game design 101, when people beat your content and perform it again it becomes routine, so I don’t see why you even bother saying this when it’s just a staple of games everywhere. To offer you my usual example, upon playing dragon age: origins i’m sure people initially used trinity compositions but then people found out you could just stack mages (up to 3 if the player created a mage), load them up with damage, CC and healing spells and just explode mobs with no effort.

maha.7902:

dragon age: origins i’m sure people initially used trinity compositions but then people found out you could just stack mages (up to 3 if the player created a mage), load them up with damage, CC and healing spells and just explode mobs with no effort.

You honestly find this good game design? I find it terrible, specially if the same can apply to an MMORPG where the whole game is based on re-playability. You said it yourself… game design 101… this is a AAA game with lots invested. You don’t do game design 101 in a project like this, you go beyond the average 1990 arcade game.

The game design is not a problem because given time people will inevitably find fast, efficient solutions to things. This is a fact of nature for every single game ever, and crying “bad game design” is basically calling every single game in the existence of the world bad. People like to harp on about dark/demon souls being hard but I’m pretty sure people have done level 1/naked runthroughs of those games. It’s not bad game design that they can do that, it’s the simple fact that given time you will be able to beat content with the minimum of defense.

If this is something you don’t want to accept, then quite simply stop playing video games. Every single video game ever “becomes simon” so if that is an issue, stop frustrating yourself thinking about it and just flat out stop playing games.

Colesy he just want to complain and kitten off forum users as always, don’t bother with him …

Mesket, DPS has ALWAYS been the name of the game in every MMO i’ve played. Yes Tank and healing were valued but they are quickly shed when not needed. There is a reason the best guilds back when I played EQ ran 7 dps groups and 2 tank/healer groups in raids. There’s a reason in DCUO we ran 1 heal, 1 tank, then combination troll/dps in the way best to maximize damage. And in both those games, our tanks/healers ran hybrid builds to maximize damage. My DCUO healer ran full DPS gear solo healing the hardest raid back before I quit, why? because we perfected our strategies to the point I could.

Strait up defense caps out, you only take so much damage playing optimally, and only need to much healing to counter the damage you do take, but damage never caps.

SO I really am not surprised by the results of GW2’s design at all. Hearing the history only reinforces it to me. Hearing about Anchor guards and old builds, people use to play much more defensively, until they figured out strategies and mechanics that let them shed those options and go much more offensive.

I still think alternate gears like valkyrie/knights or even soldier serve a purpose of being great for new players to help them have a little leeway to make mistakes while they learn mechanics. Do I wish there were some control/support gear stats, sure, but that’s simply not the game they made, they put that power in traits, weapon choices and to a lesser extent runes. I just don’t see the point of this argument, we all know how the game actually plays, you’re optimizing yourself the majority of the time in dungeons if you run zerk, it is what it is.

Well I don’t know, maybe it’s just me being old fashioned. I find it the way it is pretty shallowed. Specially considering this game tried to break forward the mmos design and at the very end it just killed a lot of the genre and moved the bar towards arcade games. When I think of RPG games, being online or not, I preffer using my head over my fingers; this game is pure fingers… you don’t need to think at all.

GW2 is an action-RPG, so yes it is more heavily reliant on reflexes while the thinking is more situational awareness and being able to react appropriately.

hybrid.5027:

most other games hid their build imbalances behind gear grinds so a bad build with better gear will trump a good build with bad gear.

THIS. I realised how true this is when I started (very casually, like 1hr a day) playing some grindfest mmos based on vertical progression. I may be the best player in the world, but if a random scrub has a gearscore 5k points higher than mine, I’m gonna suck compared to him and it’d seem like I’m dragging the team down despite all my efforts.
- unrelated: it’s pretty fun that I can still outdps some of them with my crappy gear, they must have some freaking terrible rotations, ahaha -

inb4 “if ur gud u shud be able to have gud gear”. Not really, because aquiring gear isn’t based on skill (at least not on the games I’ve seen).
It’s rng or time gating. That’s pretty much it.
Not like it’s better in gw2, but at least it’s more reliant on personal skill.

- unrelated 2: I’ve also noticed that gw2 made me forget my desire to play dedicated healer. It was nice to feel… “needed” and “desired” (/seductive wink) but gooosh, I totally didn’t miss the babysitting and the idiots overextending and dying away from me! -
I wonder what these crazy guys are missing about relying on gear grind? Is it that maybe outgearing the content is the only way for them to stay alive in dungeons?
/goes back to playing full dps

Why have stats on gear though?

Why not just expand the rune/sigil system for armor and weapons and let your abilities be fully dictated by traits?

It would be more in line with the vision of moving away from vertical progression in regards to gear, allow people to customise affects for their attacks and utilities, and ensure greater support for a player’s active defenses, since Anet does not want toughness or vitality to directly affect one’s abilities.