Guild Wars 2

Hey all, here’s a video I shot of my normal dungeoning group earlier today.

http://youtu.be/u4oXOt0d0Kk

We’ve got a slightly different take on dungeon runs. We like to run 4 Berserker players and 1 Full Healer Guardian. Please note: this video was taken candidly (the other members did not know I was recording) and we were not using voice communications of any kind.

Thanks for reading and watching!

Edit: Fixed title

Erm… I don’t get what the point of it is, unless there’s not supposed to be any

Partially to display the viability of an alternate style of play, partially to show off.

we already know other playstyles are viable

you’re preaching to the choir

Other styles certainly are viable! I agree with that. That said, your video also clearly shows what it does to your team net DPS since the all-time record is under 3 minutes and yours is over 8.

Were there any moments in the dungeon when the team would have failed if not for your heals?

At the final boss the guardian used that tome skill while the group kept dps’ing the necro boss while standing on his aoes, but they also glitched the boss on the rock so that made the fight easier too.

Brigid and Turmaine can be reaaaaaaaalllllly mean to squishy zerker ele. It is really nice to see no down at all in a casual run.

An average casual full zerker group also finishes this path in approximately 7-8 minutes.

A full zerker super try hard group, in comparison, finishes this path in under 5 minutes

But then considering the compromise of one guard DPS, the run is surprisingly fast and smooth. But then, fight is only a small part in CM anyways.

@OP: you should record TA. Oli does a great job in tome-ing at the Nightmare tree. I once record the team’s DPS and it shot over the roof with 30-35k.

Seems pointless when you could just use a zerk guard and finish it quicker seeing as all the bosses in CM melt quickly anyway

well if you watch the video the guy like didn’t even use his dodge key so having a healer is probably necessary if you want to unbind that

Of course this is going to work, The whole “zerker” meta is about trading safety for damage, it is optimal but that doesn’t mean other option aren’t viable, they just won’t be as fast if everything goes perfectly.

In pug case, I bet running your comp/build would be better 9 out of 10 times if not more.

By the look of it, you guys could easily do without the guard spec’ing like this, but it must make everything a little less stressful :P.

I think the real take away is that when encounters are so under-tuned (or tuned to level 45 characters with only a few trait points) that everything explodes in seconds, being essentially down a person makes a negligible difference in kill times. Using the same strategies as in the video but making the guard zerker probably wouldn’t make the path that much faster. If you’re in a casual group where you aren’t going to coordinate deep freeze, and you happen to RNG retal on Bridget I can see the heals being of some use. Maybe if there was a downed = dead gambit for the dungeon? As it is though I think healing had more of a placebo effect than anything else – you would have done nearly the same with or without it.

BarnabeJonez.6023:

Partially to display the viability of an alternate style of play, partially to show off.

viable? yes
optimal? no
Don’t fool yourself into thinking it made the path any easier, either. You can get better times with well-geared zerk pugs…

Rising Dusk.2408:

Other styles certainly are viable! I agree with that. That said, your video also clearly shows what it does to your team net DPS since the all-time record is under 3 minutes and yours is over 8.

Blaming the healer for the extra 5 minutes in the run without including the multiple pit stops they had setting up Pug strats or the fact that they did almost nothing to reduce travel time.

You are aware that as a forum specialist you’re suppose to be neutral right?

I’d like to see what the team can do when it’s not a casual run…

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Other styles certainly are viable! I agree with that. That said, your video also clearly shows what it does to your team net DPS since the all-time record is under 3 minutes and yours is over 8.

Blaming the healer for the extra 5 minutes in the run without including the multiple pit stops they had setting up Pug strats or the fact that they did almost nothing to reduce travel time.

You are aware that as a forum specialist you’re suppose to be neutral right?

He’s supposed to be neutral regarding Anet and the playerbase if they’re at odds. He isn’t required to support every opinion that pops up in the sub-forum.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Other styles certainly are viable! I agree with that. That said, your video also clearly shows what it does to your team net DPS since the all-time record is under 3 minutes and yours is over 8.

That record heavily involves the use of Mesmer’s portal and FGS for mobility. Yes, the DPS difference is there, but it’s hardly the only difference between us and a record run. As Iris Ng posted, this is better compared to other casual runs, not to record setters.

hybrid.5027:

Were there any moments in the dungeon when the team would have failed if not for your heals?

As Casmurro stated, during the final boss while ignoring his AoE’s we would have failed without the guardian. (Or the rest of the party would have had to focus on something other than DPS, like dodging.) That said, this may not have been the most representative path for displaying how useful a healer can be.

Trice.4598:

Of course this is going to work, The whole “zerker” meta is about trading safety for damage, it is optimal but that doesn’t mean other option aren’t viable, they just won’t be as fast if everything goes perfectly.

In pug case, I bet running your comp/build would be better 9 out of 10 times if not more.

By the look of it, you guys could easily do without the guard spec’ing like this, but it must make everything a little less stressful :P.

That bolded part is exactly the point of us running like this. We like this style of run, it allows for quick clearing of dungeons and lets us play in a more relaxed style. Personally, my enjoyment of the runs has increased since I started running with this group.

dlonie.6547:

I’d like to see what the team can do when it’s not a casual run…

Thanks for the interest. If we end up doing any more serious runs, I’ll make sure to record and post them.

BarnabeJonez.6023:

That record heavily involves the use of Mesmer’s portal and FGS for mobility. Yes, the DPS difference is there, but it’s hardly the only difference between us and a record run. As Iris Ng posted, this is better compared to other casual runs, not to record setters.

That’s certainly true. Ultimately, whatever gets you and your friends to enjoy the run more is what matters. Since you’re all friends and you’re fine with the loss of DPS, it’s all good.

Saint.5647:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Other styles certainly are viable! I agree with that. That said, your video also clearly shows what it does to your team net DPS since the all-time record is under 3 minutes and yours is over 8.

Blaming the healer for the extra 5 minutes in the run without including the multiple pit stops they had setting up Pug strats or the fact that they did almost nothing to reduce travel time.

You are aware that as a forum specialist you’re suppose to be neutral right?

He’s supposed to be neutral regarding Anet and the playerbase if they’re at odds. He isn’t required to support every opinion that pops up in the sub-forum.

His job as a forum specialist is partially to represent the dungeon community as a whole he is neither allowed to be pro zerker meta or pro PHIW, he cannot take sides period and must represent us in unity. He is not suppose to support anyone’s opinion or have one himself.

Anet is neither pro zerk or anti or pro trinity or anti or pro PHIW or in order to maintain a non discriminating image. Rising Dusk can either absorb this same prime directive or step down so he can engage with whatever he wants. He lost those rights the moment he volunteered.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

His job as a forum specialist is partially to represent the dungeon community as a whole he is neither allowed to be pro zerker meta or pro PHIW, he cannot take sides period and must represent us in unity. He is not suppose to support anyone’s opinion or have one himself.

Anet is neither pro zerk or anti or pro trinity or anti or pro PHIW or in order to maintain a non discriminating image. Rising Dusk can either absorb this same prime directive or step down so he can engage with whatever he wants. He lost those rights the moment he volunteered.

This is actually incorrect. The only thing I am not allowed to do is attempt to influence the development team to make changes based on my opinion in my reports. I am fully allowed, and encouraged, to have an opinion for purposes of discussions. As a matter of fact, in talking with the ANet correspondents I speak to, my having an opinion but not being offensive about it is a major contributor as to why I was chosen in the first place.

If you feel this is inappropriate, I encourage you to email forumspecialist@arena.net about it and explain to them why you feel specialists having an opinion for purposes of discussion is inappropriate. If they agree with you, they will speak with us, and you’ll see changes happen in the way we respond to topics. That all said, this sort of discussion is not really appropriate here. Please PM me if you’d like to continue chatting about it.

To say a volunteer cannot have an opinion is absurd. Id understand if he was actually being paid by arenanet. But hes not and hes not a moderator or a spokesperson for arenanet. Hes a spokesperson for us. Having an opinion is very important to understanding us correctly. If our specialist was completely neutral i would worry about the validity of the feedback he is giving.

A neutral spokesperson makes me think of…
http://youtu.be/fpaQpyU_QiM

Dear Friends,

Thank you Barneby for feeling confident enough about us (despite just joining our team a week ago) to go through the laborious process of (stealthily) recording and uploading a video about us. We would not have had so much fun without you.

I think I would be a poor friend to Barneby if I failed to mention that I was the healer in question in the video, not him. So if there are any opinions and questions (or hate/ill-will/trolling/aggro :X), I will gladly accept them (without ill-will) on his behalf, for they are more appropriately directed to me.

From a look at the thread thus far, I roughly distill the following arguments and respectfully offer the following replies:

1. Having one non-zerker has dragged the run longer than it should be

I think some context is needed first. The basic premise of our party make-up is: (1) casual, (2) no TS communication, (3) pug tactics – no advanced mesmer portalling/skips, (4) 1 full healer 4 full zerkers. The point is that any decent zerker can join us, play in a less serious way (I know I was in that vid XD), and have a smooth and quick run based on PUG standards. If we are to be evaluated, I would kindly suggest that it be done on those grounds.

With that context in mind, it is trite that we are not going (nor do we intend) to hit world records. Full zerk casual runs with competent players take around the same time. At risk of sounding presumptuous, I respectfully think that it sufficient that we can hit the same timing, but do so with the much larger margin for error, and without the stress of impending death/wipes.

As an aside, I think Barneby was just being playful when he said the video “was to show off” – the run time was certainly not record speed, but it certainly represents heartening encouragement that casual, non-meta groups can do just as well as meta zerk groups based on PUG standards.

2. The party could have done just as well with a full zerk guardian – healing has a placebo effect at best

First, I wish to point out that my friends are perfectly competent players. They are doing their job well, and if the party were to wipe, it would be due to my incompetence, not theirs.

With that in mind, I respectfully think that the run might not have gone as well if I were playing a full zerker guard (which I have tried – I carry full zerk gear with me all the time). I elaborate:

• Some bosses hit particularly hard like Turmaine and Brigette – especially on zerkers. If I were not a healer, the party would have to move out of Brigette’s retail circle or be obliterated in 1.5-2 seconds. For Turmaine, they would have to move out of his poison fields or die. We did not even get to phase 2 of Turmaine where he mist forms; but if we had, he downs zerkers in 1.5 to 2 seconds without proper heals/condition clears. A person struggling to survive does less dps, and a dead one does none. Based on PUG standards, there are probably few or no group that can dps the boss so fast that he can’t even get off a single devastating attack, such that no support is needed.

• In relation to the point that healing is merely a placebo, I humbly point out that healing is in gw2 is very elusive, in that when it is being done (and being done reasonably correctly), it is not readily noticeable. If people find it hard to notice any adverse change to a party’s survivability, then the healer is probably doing his job right. That being said, a lot of preparations go into ensuring that things go so smoothly that it seems like the healer is not needed at all. This requires the proper and strategic use of active defences (blocks, reflects, prot), passive defences (additional toughness and regen), and heals (burst and sustained). Even though my friends are perfectly competent (and without any intention of sounding arrogant), I think my friends can casually stand in the cross-fire precisely because the necessary support has been taken to enable them to do so. They trust me to protect them, and I trust them to fully dps. The culmination of our synergised roles makes the run look smooth. But it would not be possible without either side.

• I humbly submit that runs in GW2 can be harder than they look. Anet appears to reward good teamwork (with easy runs), but heavily penalises bad ones. In our formative years of play, those of us who learned the hard way will remember (with much distress) the 45 min AC p3s and CM p2s. There are plenty of traps in dungeons which can wipe full zerk parties. Failure to put up a reflect, block, or stability at the right time can be devastating. Examples of all 3 include luppi (Arah), icebrood wolves (Hotw), and bomb bandits (CM) respectively. Heals can help to increase the margin of error for mistakes, giving leeway to members to survive and to learn better from their dungeoning experience.

Continued in next post

Edits: fixed some typos

Continued from previous post

Healers have gotten a bad rep in GW2, mostly because many healers think that support is limited to just spamming 1 or 2 healing skills. That being said, healers are also getting a hard time in GW2. They may be criticised as incompetent where runs are shaky, but overlooked as unnecessary where runs are smooth. While zerk is still the meta, and full zerk parties continue to be viable, healing can be equally rewarding. The smoothness of the runs, the lack of gaming pressure, and the feeling of connection with your team is deeply satisfying. I hope that both Anet and the meta/non-meta community will give healers a sincere chance to develop into something stronger – they certainly have the potential to do so.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

I personally find it satisfying to keep people alive without healing power by just using proper active defense, but for each their own. If you have fun using healing power, do so, as long as your group agrees.

Hey Faythe, I’m curious what your trait/rune/sigil/weapon set up looks like for your build?

Burn this heretic. Power precision ferocity is all and the only thing you need for dungeons!

That’s one literary novel of a post. Christ.

Faythe.3096:

Even though my friends are perfectly competent (and without any intention of sounding arrogant)

Surely perfect competence would mean your usefulness as a ‘healer’ is void.

oxtred.7658:

I personally find it satisfying to keep people alive without healing power by just using proper active defense, but for each their own. If you have fun using healing power, do so, as long as your group agrees.

You can’t use active defense against retaliation, or constant poison/burning uptime)

Iris Ng.9845:

oxtred.7658:

I personally find it satisfying to keep people alive without healing power by just using proper active defense, but for each their own. If you have fun using healing power, do so, as long as your group agrees.

You can’t use active defense against retaliation, or constant poison/burning uptime)

But you can LoS Bridgette or pull/knock her out of it.

J Eberle.9312:

Faythe.3096:

Even though my friends are perfectly competent (and without any intention of sounding arrogant)

Surely perfect competence would mean your usefulness as a ‘healer’ is void.

Dear J Eberle.9312,

Thank you for your reply. I think perfectly competent zerkers have a choice between heals and no heals. I think my friends prefer to focus their "competence"100% on dps, and leave the bit on survival to me. I don’t see their skills as rendering me unnecessary. Quite to the contrary, I think that they believe in their skills to dps, and mine in keeping them up. Both support and dps affirm each other mutually and synergistically.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Though personally I prefer more trait focused support builds than gear focused builds (more damage while still giving support) I do see plenty of value in contributing to the passive defense of your team. I know a buddy I used to run with ran a modified fractal hammer guard build with IIRC Water sigil and the heal symbol trait, he lost like 15-20% modifiers and 100 precision doing that but it was very noticeable on fights that had passive damage from burning/poison/retal (as iris pointed out).

My old group ran 1 PS war, 1 Hammer guard, 1 Staff Ele and filled in the last two with various professions based on whatever we felt like. We used to joke and call it the “braindead meta” because of how much easier it made things, however we were still able to do say SEp1 in under 4 minutes and our times overall were more hindered by lack of portals and general mobility compared to record runs than kill times. The only reason we moved away from such builds was because braindead play became a bit boring to us, I still see it as a great composition, especially drunken dungeon tour nights.

Iris Ng.9845:

oxtred.7658:

I personally find it satisfying to keep people alive without healing power by just using proper active defense, but for each their own. If you have fun using healing power, do so, as long as your group agrees.

You can’t use active defense against retaliation, or constant poison/burning uptime)

That’s where CC come into play. Bridgette won’t use retal if you chain deep freeze.
Then again, that’s how I do it. I’m fine with other playstyles.

GrimmR.3541:

Iris Ng.9845:

oxtred.7658:

I personally find it satisfying to keep people alive without healing power by just using proper active defense, but for each their own. If you have fun using healing power, do so, as long as your group agrees.

You can’t use active defense against retaliation, or constant poison/burning uptime)

But you can LoS Bridgette or pull/knock her out of it.

Dear GrimmR.3541,

Looking at the context, I think what Iris meant was that you can’t continue to stand in the retail or poison circles and hope to survive without heals. You are definitely right in saying that moving out of the circles remains viable. However, that would stop dps for several seconds and hamper rotations. But in fairness, having a dedicated healer is itself a dps loss. In the end, both ways of doing things can be equally viable.

I think the nub of Iris’s point is that you can’t claim to be both – I.e. you can’t claim to be able to fully support your team from all or most manners of adversity, but also claim to be full zerk at the same time. No doubt, full zerkers have strong active defences, but they lack team based passive defences and heals. And at the end of the day, full and effective support is more than just active defences.

Certainly you can chain freeze Brigette as Oxtred.7658 mentions one post above. It’s a kill or be killed way of doing things. It certainly works for very coordinated parties. But considering the PUG/casual context of dungeoning that we are discussing here, I’m not sure how viable it will be there. The tactic is hard to pull off, and may not be very viable when bosses surround themselves in poison fields constantly which don’t go away easily (like turmaine from CM p2). In such a case, if you intend to continue to dps in the poison fields, you will probably need more than just active defences.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

It’s only heals that you lack in zerker, every other form of defense is reliant on utility skills and trait selection.

Personally I like to view things in regards to their opportunity costs.

For example, using mace on guard has 2 notable negatives. First being the light field, it can potentially block more powerful fields. The second is it’s small personal dps loss. It has pros though, most notably for the group is the healing, it’ll help maintain scholar bonuses through passive damage which can actually lead to a dps gain, while it also leads to more general sustainability through the passive defense of the heal in general. Overall the pros/cons make it quite a powerful weapon.

Going full on healing and sacrificing base stats for healing power will lower your damage by an amount that makes it harder to offset that loss. The opportunity cost is high. The most notable benefit is the increase in ease of play and allowing potential mistakes to be made.

The viability is surely there, especially when you consider ease of play to be a factor (which meta ignores) it’s simply the idea of optimization that it conflicts with (which is what meta focuses on).

In the end though I hope you guys keep doing what your doing and continue to work on strategies to really fully explore the opportunity cost of your decisions, it’d be enlightening to see it more fully fleshed out.

Kind of torn on how quickly everyone jumped down his/her/idk… throat about this. Let’s not get so caught up on the usual malcontents trolling in from General Discussion to stir up kitten.

I don’t think these guys came in here swinging their peters saying that this is how dungeons were meant to be run. Seems like they just did it for fun. All things considered, it’s probably better than a lot of the pug runs out there.

Ohlette, it’s viable. It’s not necessary but it’s viable and for what it’s worth ya’ll didn’t do a bad job of it. Seems like you guys also understand it’s not the optimal way either so I wouldn’t take anything too personally. I think folks around here are a little too used to posts like this being made in a very accusatory and angry fashion.

Frankly, I don’t think dedicated class roles have any place in the game’s current state. Can’t say what the future holds but as it stands, the skill is often found in how well a player can adapt and play multiple roles at once. Currently, this can 100% be done in offensive setups. Since support is largely untied to any supportive stats, there is very little benefit to be gained from spec. into it.

Faythe.3096:

GrimmR.3541:

Iris Ng.9845:

oxtred.7658:

I personally find it satisfying to keep people alive without healing power by just using proper active defense, but for each their own. If you have fun using healing power, do so, as long as your group agrees.

You can’t use active defense against retaliation, or constant poison/burning uptime)

But you can LoS Bridgette or pull/knock her out of it.

Dear GrimmR.3541,

Looking at the context, I think what Iris meant was that you can’t continue to stand in the retail or poison circles and hope to survive without heals. You are definitely right in saying that moving out of the circles remains viable. However, that would stop dps for several seconds and hamper rotations. But in fairness, having a dedicated healer is itself a dps loss. In the end, both ways of doing things can be equally viable.

I think the nub of Iris’s point is that you can’t claim to be both – I.e. you can’t claim to be able to fully support your team from all or most manners of adversity, but also claim to be full zerk at the same time. No doubt, full zerkers have strong active defences, but they lack team based passive defences and heals. And at the end of the day, full and effective support is more than just active defences.

Certainly you can chain freeze Brigette as Oxtred.7658 mentions one post above. It’s a kill or be killed way of doing things. It certainly works for very coordinated parties. But considering the PUG/casual context of dungeoning that we are discussing here, I’m not sure how viable it will be there. The tactic is hard to pull off, and may not be very viable when bosses surround themselves in poison fields constantly which don’t go away easily (like turmaine from CM p2). In such a case, if you intend to continue to dps in the poison fields, you will probably need more than just active defences.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Can’t argue with you about this, tho i got the point of what Iris meant.
To be honest, I don’t care what you enjoy running; everyone should play as he pleases. I just wanted to give an example of what you can do at Bridgy.
I will never ever run a healer in a dungeon but it seems to work well for you.
I guess this forum is just filled with full zerk meta people.

Have a nice one,
Grimm, lvl 64 red moa

Jerus.4350:

It’s only heals that you lack in zerker, every other form of defense is reliant on utility skills and trait selection.

Personally I like to view things in regards to their opportunity costs.

For example, using mace on guard has 2 notable negatives. First being the light field, it can potentially block more powerful fields. The second is it’s small personal dps loss. It has pros though, most notably for the group is the healing, it’ll help maintain scholar bonuses through passive damage which can actually lead to a dps gain, while it also leads to more general sustainability through the passive defense of the heal in general. Overall the pros/cons make it quite a powerful weapon.

Going full on healing and sacrificing base stats for healing power will lower your damage by an amount that makes it harder to offset that loss. The opportunity cost is high. The most notable benefit is the increase in ease of play and allowing potential mistakes to be made.

The viability is surely there, especially when you consider ease of play to be a factor (which meta ignores) it’s simply the idea of optimization that it conflicts with (which is what meta focuses on).

In the end though I hope you guys keep doing what your doing and continue to work on strategies to really fully explore the opportunity cost of your decisions, it’d be enlightening to see it more fully fleshed out.

Dear Jerus.4350,

Thank you for your educated reply.

Your principal concern is that having a full healer may have too high an opportunity cost. I respectfully offer the following responses:

• With regard to your concerns over fire fields, I use hammers more often than maces so that I can blast with hammer 2 (which has a low CD). Also, as I do not spec for longer protection symbols, I can provide for reasonable amounts of protection while not overriding fire fields excessively. Furthermore, I myself carry my own fire fields (hallowed ground and purging flames) and set them down before I do other things. The result is I rarely override fire fields. Where I do use a mace, I either fire field first, or get my party to do so.

• I agree fully with your point on scholar bonuses. I add further that team DPS is enhanced by healing/support because dps rotations are not interrupted. My team trusts me, and over time, has learned to stand in the cross fire and not dodge/carry out defensive actions unless their lives are in critical danger. DPS is not just about stats but also technique and flow. The overall result of role specialisation that team dps benefits greatly from all 3 elements. This is something that is often overlooked – that dps must be looked at in practice, not just in theory. When you are in the heat of battle, a small change can lead to a large result. Even though numbers are a useful guide, reality is more than just that.

• A full healer does less, but certainly not negligible DPS. CM p2 requires more support because the bosses hit hard and fast. But in many instances, the impending damage while still being high, comes more gradually. In such cases, I am minded to pick up frost bows and use my own attacks to make sure I contribute. In my experience, despite being a healer, I can still do a lower, but certainly not negligible amount of DPS.

• I agree fully with your point on the ease of play and the leeway for mistakes. Full zerks are viable when people know what to do, when they are supposed to do it. But in PUG/casual scenarios which form the bulk of the GW2 dungeoning experience, this is not always (and indeed not often) the case. There are less obstacles to achieving quick runs in the PUG context with ‘1 heal 4 zerk’ than with ‘5 zerk’ parties. It is not just what is effective in numbers, but also what is effective in practice.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Isn’t a healer ele better?

robertul.3679:

Isn’t a healer ele better?

Magi’s staff/IB ele is the best healer in the game.

Saint.5647:

Kind of torn on how quickly everyone jumped down his/her/idk… throat about this. Let’s not get so caught up on the usual malcontents trolling in from General Discussion to stir up kitten.

I don’t think these guys came in here swinging their peters saying that this is how dungeons were meant to be run. Seems like they just did it for fun. All things considered, it’s probably better than a lot of the pug runs out there.

Ohlette, it’s viable. It’s not necessary but it’s viable and for what it’s worth ya’ll didn’t do a bad job of it. Seems like you guys also understand it’s not the optimal way either so I wouldn’t take anything too personally. I think folks around here are a little too used to posts like this being made in a very accusatory and angry fashion.

Frankly, I don’t think dedicated class roles have any place in the game’s current state. Can’t say what the future holds but as it stands, the skill is often found in how well a player can adapt and play multiple roles at once. Currently, this can 100% be done in offensive setups. Since support is largely untied to any supportive stats, there is very little benefit to be gained from spec. into it.

Dear Saint.5647,

Thank you for your encouraging reply.

I think the post below yours by Fracture.9754 is aptly representative of someone “[coming in and] swinging [his] peter” on how runs should be done (albeit that it may just have been in jest) XD. But I take such things in good humour. Thank you for your concern

We feel that ‘1 heal 4 zerk’ is actually the better way to go for PUGS/casual dungeoning groups (which form the bulk of the dungeoning community). In the PUG/casual context, the reduction of gaming pressure, the simplicity of tactics, the consistency of heals, and the higher margin for error in ‘1 heal 4 zerk parties’ will make it easier to achieve reasonably quicker runs, compared to when ‘5 zerk parties’ are used.

You are no doubt correct that everything can be done full as a full zerker. But the decisions as to what is viable should not only consider dungeoning in theory, but also in practice. 5 Zerk parties which require high coordination and competency are in practice more difficult to pull off successfully than 1 heal 4 zerker parties. Consequently, there is certainly space for healers in this game (albeit ANet needs to include much more), especially in the larger sized casual dungeoning community.

Support is tied to stats. Full support cannot just be done by active defences. For example, you can’t fully support your party single-handedly against Turmaine’s poison fields with just active defences. You need heals and healing power. Of course, every class has its own types of defences. However, if 5 zerk party members had to rely on themselves or others to dodge, cleanse and heal, there is far more room for error and the battle is far more abrupt, compared to when the entire battle is smoothly conducted by the entire party just fully dpsing with 1 healer throwing heals in support.

For your kind consideration.

Yours Faithfully,

Ohlette

Goodness, it seems like you read “placebo” and nothing else of my post. The main argument that you make I actually mention just above that – Bridgette and retal. Turmain is essentially the same thing: you brute force rather then ib5, so healing allows melee classes to stay in melee range and dps the whole time. I was actually trying to play devils advocate. I’m sorry that word distracted so much from my point, which was really just that whether you have a centaur rune mesmer running around portaling or a healing guardian, being down one dps character isn’t going to make much of a difference where kill times are concerned. It’s going to be seconds or a few more seconds.

I don’t have any problem with the set up, although I wouldn’t advise trying to use it in pugs as you suggest. Because while 4zerk1heal is not that much different from 5zerks, 4 grab-bag-of random-traits-and-specs + 1 heal isn’t always going to work out. You can’t depend on pugs to deal dps, and after two years of pugging I can safely say it’s much better to bring your own dps and bring active defense without gimping yourself to buff or heal your party mates. Pugs are much more likely to lack good damage then they are to lack personal survivability. “They trust me to protect them, and I trust them to fully dps.” – trust is not something you bring into pugs, so I’d advise keeping the healer guard for times when you know everyone in the party and know the full group composition.

Hmm, I’m always late to the party in recent times.

Considering the futur change to defiance which could maybe lead to some mechanic change in dungeon, I feel it was a really good showdown on how powerful a healing support may be in dungeon/fractal.

We can see on the squishy elementalist that the guard is pretty good at keeping up with the damage done.

Now, i don’t think they upload the video for a record. And we all know that zerk gear properly used is “optimal” and “meta”. But, we can at least aknowledge that a support healer ain’t no joke.

It is a joke when you can completely ignore it with proper usage of player skills and defiance control. 1 ele with an ice bow can completely disable a boss for 5 seconds and if you have a thief/mesmer to strip the defiance you can deep freeze again for total 10 seconds of care free dps uptime which is enough for most bosses in sub lvl 80 dungeons.

robertul.3679:

Isn’t a healer ele better?

Dem healz.

Taku.6352:

It is a joke when you can completely ignore it with proper usage of player skills and defiance control. 1 ele with an ice bow can completely disable a boss for 5 seconds and if you have a thief/mesmer to strip the defiance you can deep freeze again for total 10 seconds of care free dps uptime which is enough for most bosses in sub lvl 80 dungeons.

Yeah, at the moment you are right, that’s why I said the futur change to defiance which will lead to small window where you can actually use control skills on bosses and a pre-set effect that will probably not be the same as the allmighty Ice bow freeze. In other word, it’s a good point if you ready yourself for futur changes. That was my point.

@Robyn: i think it’s more of a private invitational group with a few new people mixed in for runs than a total pug group. Oli can certainly kitten the effectiveness of the group herself and adjust. It’s not surprising if some individuals will get invited more often due to compatibility with the group. Or at least that is how it works with Lua’s crew as well.