Guild Wars 2

You’re nitpicking. You could still do Urgoz in 15 minutes while killing a ton of stuff.

You’re trying to invalidate my point by attacking me directly, and I’d rather you didn’t. Some of us don’t want the PvE to be a joke like it was in GW1.

You said "In GW1, you actually fought mobs. In GW2, you skip everything. "

I said there was more skipping in GW1.

You said “You still killed a lot of stuff in DoA/FoW/Deep/Urgoz. The only place you did tons of skipping was UW. None of those were on the level of skipping you can do in GW2, where you can finish an Arah path by only killing 1 or 2 mobs.”

I destroyed that argument^ (because, YES in GW1 a hell of a lot more skipping was possible than there is in this game)

So the above is relevant… how?

The existence of stealth and lack of stealth detection means that there will be no limitation on mob skipping in GW2. Spy kits amplify the problem because it means everyone has access to stealth whenever they want it, and they can do it endlessly. Sorry, I suppose I’m not being clear enough for you.

GW1 had Shadow Form.

What is stealth?

Do you want them to never do something about stealth in PvE or something? If you want a boring and easy game, you can say so.

GW1 PvE was bad because of Shadow Form, no arguments there.

This thread is just going to get locked if we keep bickering.

Really? I did it with ap pug group on the first try. Taken we had a really dumb necro who ran around for 30 min not knowing what to do while our warrior had to do his job for him, we still was able to light it. Vent is needed on this (well, at least the majority).
But after that everything was easy (minus the necro who couldn’t get pass bomb part and died I lava like 4 times).
On lighting part some killed all adds except one so they wont spawn a new set. Then they kill and lit. I however was behind his Los so I had it easy.
On standing ground the party died at least once. But the necros did their part there as they just run and kite, making it not reset b4 we got back.
Btw, we did it with 4 light armors and a warrior, I believe.

So when you stand next to the torch, there will be 3 respawning mobs that you’ll aggro. The trick is to kill 2 and leave one alive at ~25% life, since they do not respawn until all 3 are killed. Over voice-chat or /p chat, get your party leader to coordinate when to kill the last mob, wait a second, then call out to light the torches. If you do it with 2 calls (for the kill, then to light it) you’ll find it’s very easy to coordinate it. IMO there’s plenty of time. In addition, on my tanky guardian and pure berserkers warrior I had no trouble staying alive with one mob on me, so I feel that this encounter does not need a nerf. My other guildies don’t seem to have a lot of trouble with it, either.

I haven’t done CoF path 3 in months.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Path 3 torch event is pretty rough, even for our QA and people know how to do it. I have plans to soften it’s edges a bit (read: nerf), because I honestly can’t get a group to run the darn thing. It can often take long enough to do the first event that you could have done a whole other path if you are in a PuG.
My current plan is to drop it down to 3 torches, so two players who choose tanky/support roles won’t be so punished by the content, and then adjusting the way the spawns behave to provide more of a challenge. (Plans subject to change based on testing feedback)

Please no, if anything make the other dungeon pathes harder. There are already too many easy and boring pathes. This one finnally needed a tiny bit of coordination, but nothing impossible. I can do the event with pugs in like 5min which isnt terrible.

Also I am playing a tanky build and I had zero problems handling the toughest of the torches, so no reason to change.

Don’t nerf path 3. It’s one of the few paths that actually takes coordination and communication. The torches are a fair challenge. Please don’t nerf this into another “ALL I DO IS ROLL MY HEAD ON THE KEYBOARD FOR DUNGEON TOKENS”

If groups are having trouble with it, it’s a problem with communication and simple direction following. The content is fine as is.

The thing I find most frustrating is that the ‘sneaking to the end undetected’ part of the challenge is a total and complete hoax.

We did the torches party by sneaking to the end, all totally stealthed as a guild team running Thieves, just to see if it could be done. After 10 attempts, I think we’ve pretty much proven that it is impossible to do. You get right to the end and the wall is there, even when they haven’t spotted you.

It’s a joke.

Speed runs will always skip everything because anything that takes time must be skipped. That doesn’t make it optimal play.

The issue is more that trash in this game has way too much health, making clearing the trash a chore – and an unrewarding one, because a silver mob isn’t any better from a loot perspective than just killing plain world trash. Compound this with your typical pug dealing, oh, 30% of the damage a strong group does, and you have a situation where everyone should want to skip your time wasters.

Really the design philosophy is off. The challenge of dungeons is in the legendary encounters. The mobs you encounter in between those should basically be loot pinatas, not difficult encounters, and certainly not big balls of health to waste your time – their purpose is to provide contrast to the hard fights, by letting you roll over them and feel powerful.

In GW1, big balls of mobs died quickly under focused AoE and had the potential to drop some of the best loot in the game. Effective groups wanted to ball up and clear mobs quickly. That’s totally lacking in GW2’s dungeon design; it’s not a trivial problem to fix, but I’d argue it’s the most pressing concern with your PvE game and should be getting a lot of design attention.

I don’t think CoF P3 is too hard, I think its right where it is. People just need to learn how to do it. Maybe if there was some mechanic like bonus exp for monsters for dungeons as well, like if you don’t do one path for a while you get bonus tokens, karma exp, etc.

Our party used teamspeak to time to moment of killing and lighting and it worked perfectly

Boarcore.5310:

Our party used teamspeak to time to moment of killing and lighting and it worked perfectly

By teamspeak, do you mean the chat window? And were you in a pick-up-group?

Robert Hrouda.1327:

My current plan is to drop it down to 3 torches, so two players who choose tanky/support roles won’t be so punished by the content. . .

I can agree that this part may need some tweeking to encourage more PuGs to take up the challenge of this path. But I disagree with that (quoted) reason based on two things.

Firstly I love that there is no set or overwhelming need for building DPS/Trinity parties, where all that is needed is for someone to know their class and be awesome. Secondly to me Guild Wars has always been about understanding the task/enemies ahead then picking the right weapons and utilities that work best and so what if you fail the first time. Make a few adjustments and play a little harder thats all.

Dropping 2 torches to accomodate for tanks and healers goes against those two Guild Wars philosophies. By this stage in the game (lvl75+) people should know their classes well enough to act above and beyond the “Trinity” and be willing to change things up for the situations ahead. I totally feel that yes, they should be punished for being unballanced as a result of building their Guild Wars characters according to remnant theories from other MMOs. Dropping 2 torches would actually make me angry. One person will still have to take a torch solo (which would be me so no difference there) effectively carrying the rest of the team through. I love the 5 torches. I find them fun. Its like a quick spot check to see if individuals players are well built and skillful enough. I’m not a difficulty snob but please dont take away our moments of individual awesomeness.

Rather then drop torches, look at longer coordination periods and/or respawn timers. So its still the same effort across the whole group, but its less annoying and frustraiting.

wanna do the same thing to p3 that you have done to p1?….

Content already is to easy so your hardest content fractals 75 -81 was beaten in 8 hours straight forward ( faster per 3 fractals than most pug you get on lvl 10) why you take away every challenging thing in the game?

You posted yourself that dungeon is high end content but it isn’t everyone can farm p1 or get carried through it.. p1 was fun before nerf p 3 was fun .. but wan’t be fun anymore because you now need 0 coordination ( why take away everything that makes a dungeon a dungeon ( teamcoordination skill chalenges ) if not 5 player of a team are good enough to get the torch lit they don’t deserve to complete the dungeon end of the story in my eyes…

but as always you give away everything cause player are bad at least add some high end content .. enhance fractals lvls cap or somthing but why you always look at bad players instead of giving a challange to the good ones

Every time i cringe i use a spy kit.

Pinch.4273:

In a game about combat, having the most efficient way to reap the most rewards being “avoid combat”, something is seriously wrong.

Where was it written that the game is about combat? If it was there wouldn’t be things like jumping puzzles. I much prefer subterfuge as the approach. Enemies are an obstacle. There should be more ways to get around them than just combat. Especially since combat in dungeons is often very boring.

Combat has its place but if combat is all the game is about it will get boring very fast. Incidently this is why most MMOs are boring. At least GW2 offers ways to bypass encounters.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Path 3 torch event is pretty rough, even for our QA and people know how to do it. I have plans to soften it’s edges a bit (read: nerf), because I honestly can’t get a group to run the darn thing. It can often take long enough to do the first event that you could have done a whole other path if you are in a PuG.
My current plan is to drop it down to 3 torches, so two players who choose tanky/support roles won’t be so punished by the content, and then adjusting the way the spawns behave to provide more of a challenge. (Plans subject to change based on testing feedback)

Robert I have to disagree.

I think Glass Cannons are the one who suffers this event, while Tanky Support can easily do the torch event. It’s easier for this type of char to hold 1 mob on their back at 1% and finish it after counting 1,2,3 to sync the torches.

This is how I did it with my GF and 3 pugs. We spread through the torches, kill 2 mobs, keep 1 hitting us (1 mob hitting you shouldnt be a problem unless you are full full dps build).

Rob, this event is not hard at all, actually, even full dps characters can eat a regen food for lvl 80 and the 1 mob hitting them will not even lower his HP!

Pinch.4273:

This ^. People complain about every kitten thing. Anything that makes impossible kitten a little easier they cry, anything that’s impossible they cry, you can never make them happy. This isn’t game breaking, it’s called planning ahead to make things less complicated, the same as when you take food, sharpening stones and skale venom.

First of all, I’m not crying, so please grow up and learn how to properly respond to an opposing point of view. Secondly, I doubt you’ll find any posts of mine where I’m saying things are too difficult.

Spy kits “don’t make things a little easier”, they make things trivial. Food buffs and potions are incomparable. Those are standardized and perfectly acceptable, and boost your effectiveness by a reasonable percentage. Spy kits let you avoid playing the game.

Power.2957:

LOL? Which GW1 did you play? Cuz we couldn’t have played the same one. In GW1 there was a TON more skipping than what’s going on in this game. In GW1 people would sell runs of missions and elite areas.

You still killed a lot of stuff in DoA/FoW/Deep/Urgoz. The only place you did tons of skipping was UW. None of those were on the level of skipping you can do in GW2, where you can finish an Arah path by only killing 1 or 2 mobs.

I remember skipping tons of mobs in DoA in Gloom and Foundry. And in FoW anything that wasn’t skipped was either AoE bombed in seconds or soloed by special classes/builds. Trash is trash, there in’t usually anything interesting about it. And since the dungeons all require you to grind them repeatedly to get stuff skipping becomes more fun than clearing.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Path 3 torch event is pretty rough, even for our QA and people know how to do it. I have plans to soften it’s edges a bit (read: nerf), because I honestly can’t get a group to run the darn thing. It can often take long enough to do the first event that you could have done a whole other path if you are in a PuG.
My current plan is to drop it down to 3 torches, so two players who choose tanky/support roles won’t be so punished by the content, and then adjusting the way the spawns behave to provide more of a challenge. (Plans subject to change based on testing feedback)

I did P3 two times successful now, once with a pug, once with the guild. The torches are challenging indeed, I had a few other tries with pugs and in general I see there is about 1 “idiot” (mind the "", Couldn’t come up with a better translation for what I actually want to say) that is not listening messing it up, because he/she is not listening to an explanation. Making some else rage quit. So i think the problem about the torches is just that there are people who are unable to communicate good during a dungeon, which is a must on the torches. So dropping it down to 3 can indeed be very helpful, since you can drop people that are messing it up on some senseless that does not affect the actual thing you have to do. The run I did successfully with my guild was a few days ago, and due to a quite high dps difference we actually phased the starting point, the two people that had the lowest dps did start first, as soon they had one down, someone else joined in that just got a new build that did affect his dps and when the first 2 had 1 left last 2 with massive AoE did join in and we got the torches lit that way. So it’s possible for sure if there is good communication and if the group can adept to the situation. Ow and by the way first time i did it with a pug i was playing a support ele, low damage, insane healing, tanky and useless now due to some balance, (read: nerfs :p, ty ANet ^^). So i found a new favorite profession in a nerco using conditions and wells and that was in with the guild run. But what I want to indicate with this, even with lower damage is possible, it just require some more department, which is probably the problems for pugs. Since i have to admit we where using a team speak server with the guild run to CoF p3 and most pug do not have this.

In short: I think CoF P3 is some great challenging content, but I can see why it is to hard for pugs.