I think we have the same issue right now with the inability to see people’s AR. Your concern is much more severe of course, but I’ve joined plenty of groups that are inexperienced from 15-20. Will it get worse with the new change? Imo, I don’t think we’ll even notice.
Since AR is almost mandatory in high level FotM, I agree that we should be able to be informed the AR and levels of other players considering PuG.
How about showing AR and FotM level on the player tooltips? It is also helpful even at current situation. Certainly you don’t want to take the risk if you see more than one player has no or low AR when running high level FotM, and you can also know you can count on high level helping to do their low level dailies.
I’ve ran with some groups in lower levels that in no way could have ever survived a level 20 fractal, much less a level 30.
There’s a problem in that we can’t see someone’s true fractal level, or their gear. I don’t want to be an elitist but I have no desire to run with someone running full magic find rares (my level 17 had a ranger with full MF rares in it) not only because it makes them weaker, but because it’s disrespectful to the rest of the party.
I thought they will make a tiered FotM (lv 1~10, 11~20…)
Developers said that you can play without any AR to ~26,
but I doubt the majority will be good enough to play like that….
Honestly, I’d rather have elitism than be in groups that wipe all the time.
You can avoid elitism. You can’t avoid being in a bad group without the right information.
Honestly, I’d rather have elitism than be in groups that wipe all the time.
You can avoid elitism. You can’t avoid being in a bad group without the right information.
I thought they will make a tiered FotM (lv 1~10, 11~20…)
Developers said that you can play without any AR to ~26,
but I doubt the majority will be good enough to play like that….
I really wish they would do a tiered FOTM instead too. More or less groups up the skill level of players, without necessarily impeding on level progress, since there are a huge number of parties for level 10, 20, 30, etc dailies.
I understand why they are making the change but I do think it’s just going to increase dungeon angst. But I cannot imagine playing level 21 fractals when you are only level 2 is going to be much fun either. The frequent ground hugging, the repair costs, the ill-will of your team mates etc, etc… I really don’t think lowbies will party-up with high levels. I mean unless they are there to leech, they will not want to be or enjoy being the weakest link.
I suspect that what’s going to happen is that guilds and friends will take along low level members along because they are guildies/friends and thus you are okay with them being inexperienced etc but PuGs will still insist that you are the same level or no more then one to two levels below.
My brain is shagging under the weight of changes… having six characters was not a good idea!
This system won’t work without a better tier’d system, IMO it should be based on ones agony resistance stat, it would allow for alot more flexibility with grouping and players will be able to play in a level range they are more comfortable and experienced in, when they are ready to move on simply equip +5 or 10 AR and be on your way. I am currently only on Fractal 3 and would feel in no way comfortable enough running in lvl 21 like the scenario posted by the dev’s, it would not be fair to the rest of the group I was in being I am so far behind in experience.
On a side note its great they are trying to make changes to better the Fractal experience but when can we see some of the other dungeons in game receive some of the same type of attention and love?
Actually, all you’d need to do is ask a player to link their gear. I’m looking forward to these changes although i do think having low lvl players be able to instantly access lvl 40+ kind of defeats the purpose of having challenging dungeon scaling. Will loot be scaled down for a lvl 1-10 player in a 50 fractal, or can they just get a free ride to improved loot and rewards?
Actually, all you’d need to do is ask a player to link their gear. I’m looking forward to these changes although i do think having low lvl players be able to instantly access lvl 40+ kind of defeats the purpose of having challenging dungeon scaling. Will loot be scaled down for a lvl 1-10 player in a 50 fractal, or can they just get a free ride to improved loot and rewards?
It said their personal reward will be scaled to their level, no real clarification on exactly what that means.
My guess, the daily chest for jade maw is scaled to your level. So if your max level is 4 and you do a run at level 28, you still can’t get any ascended rings or infused ascended rings.
which means a low lvl would be an idiot to join a high level group…they don’t have AR, they get the same rewards as if they ran at low level, and they will likely die alot. Won’t take people long to realize that joining high lvl groups early is not fun imo
Even now I have to wade through a sea of bad players at 30+, I guess they got carried all the way up there, there’s no way some of the awful people I see got there through their own effort. When pugging 30+, usually have to restart the dungeon 2 or 3 times to get rid of the Magic finders -_-.. I can only imagine this problem will become even more common place but oh well.
I ask people to link their gear, but a few things come to mind of course:
1.) Doesn’t stop them from having no idea whats going on and screwing up/ just being bad.
2.) They change to their magic find set once we’re in.
That being said, it sure helps to have people link their gear, it at least reduces the likelihood that they’re awful if they have taken the time to figure out their gear and build.
Grandmaster Forum Mind Brain
|-Swiftpaw Sharpclaw [DnT]-|
The subject of MF gear is itself a heated topic. I personally find it offensive for any group effort as it means you’re doing ‘less’ and people with full stats on their gear are doing ‘more’. Maybe, MAYBE, if it applied MF to their whole group as compensation for being ‘carried’, but otherwise its such a disrespectful thing to me.
For high lvl fracs I can see something like ‘agony 5+, link backpack for invite’ in the notes on lfg.com. I’m sure theres going to be plenty of people that expect way more for far less content though. Already see lfg requests like ‘LFM for ACexp, 80s in full exotics only’ (its a lvl 35 dungeon), or ‘LFM for FOTM1, NO NOOBS’ (ironic). You can argue about min/maxing stuff but I think anyone with half a brain will just laugh at those LFG requests.
Even now I have to wade through a sea of bad players at 30+, I guess they got carried all the way up there, there’s no way some of the awful people I see got there through their own effort. When pugging 30+, usually have to restart the dungeon 2 or 3 times to get rid of the Magic finders -_-.. I can only imagine this problem will become even more common place but oh well.
I ask people to link their gear, but a few things come to mind of course:
1.) Doesn’t stop them from having no idea whats going on and screwing up/ just being bad.
2.) They change to their magic find set once we’re in.
That being said, it sure helps to have people link their gear, it at least reduces the likelihood that they’re awful if they have taken the time to figure out their gear and build.
I always wonder about this. How would you even know they have magic find? What gives them away? I mean, I doubt they get a sign above their head that say “using magic find now”.
which means a low lvl would be an idiot to join a high level group…they don’t have AR, they get the same rewards as if they ran at low level, and they will likely die alot. Won’t take people long to realize that joining high lvl groups early is not fun imo
Exactly! People who will be grouping with low levers are people helping out guildies and/or friends. Only the worst kind of leech would gimp a high level team by tagging along and just being dead weight on the ground.
My brain is shagging under the weight of changes… having six characters was not a good idea!
What I think this games need is right click———→inspect. Something which shows us the gear being used and other stuff like fractal lvl. Or something in the official website, which allows us to type the players name in and see see the same stuff i mentioned above.
Even now I have to wade through a sea of bad players at 30+, I guess they got carried all the way up there, there’s no way some of the awful people I see got there through their own effort. When pugging 30+, usually have to restart the dungeon 2 or 3 times to get rid of the Magic finders -_-.. I can only imagine this problem will become even more common place but oh well.
I ask people to link their gear, but a few things come to mind of course:
1.) Doesn’t stop them from having no idea whats going on and screwing up/ just being bad.
2.) They change to their magic find set once we’re in.
That being said, it sure helps to have people link their gear, it at least reduces the likelihood that they’re awful if they have taken the time to figure out their gear and build.
I always wonder about this. How would you even know they have magic find? What gives them away? I mean, I doubt they get a sign above their head that say “using magic find now”.
A few things give hints:
1.) crafted set of gear
2.) magic find food
3.) Sigil of luck next to their name.
4.) Dies to trash mobs like no tomorrow.
5.) Auto attacks alot.
This obviously doesn’t always mean they are wearing magic find, but it sure increases the chances they are.
When I see this I will ask for a gear ping and when they refuse to provide it, it’s time to kick.
Grandmaster Forum Mind Brain
|-Swiftpaw Sharpclaw [DnT]-|
1.) crafted set of gear
2.) magic find food
3.) Sigil of luck next to their name.
4.) Dies to trash mobs like no tomorrow.
5.) Auto attacks alot.
This obviously doesn’t always mean they are wearing magic find, but it sure increases the chances they are.
When I see this I will ask for a gear ping and when they refuse to provide it, it’s time to kick.
Thanks for the reply. None of those things on their own would indicate magic find and certainly if the person is dying a lot then in the very least they are not on their game/being distracted and maybe needs to do something other then fractals.
My brain is shagging under the weight of changes… having six characters was not a good idea!
If you run with a regular group or guildies you trust, none of this is of concern. If you are going to pug it, you need to accept the good with the bad. People will still request players in a particular level range, so you really only have to worry about people who lie there way into a higher level group.
If the votes for level of the run are shown next to each person’s name, it will be easy to figure out if you have someone lower than the advertised requested level range. If they are shown with out the name attached, at least it will be a heads up and the party can go from there.
I think it’s a good system as described. I’d rather deal with the headaches of this system than have to deal with mechanisms that feed elitism.
I don’t like the changes since it will lower the quality of high lvl pug groups which has been pretty much the only reason for me to run fotm, no other dungeon comes even close in the average quality of pug groups.
Also why would they implement something like this and not make fotm lvl account wide? Many of the high lvl players have enough rings for multiple characters and know how to avoid most of the agony. Especially with upcoming changes i see no reason for them to be forced to lvl each character separately.
So kick people for wearing MF gear , seriously what has this game come to. i pray you hide away in your guilds and never need pugs, for their sakes.
low.
Give it a second thought. Wearing mf gear, unless everyone in the group uses it, is like saying “Hey, you do the work and watch me reap higher reward than you.”
I dont have a problem with people using MF as long as the dungeon is going smoothly and at a decent pace. The second people start wiping all over the place though, id expect these MF’s to change to a more suitable set.
Anyway, like I said its probably nothing much to worry about, no reason why anyone lvl 2 would want to join a level 30, unless they enjoy lying face down dead for 70% of the time. Just hopefully some dev will consider this potential problem.
I’d also like to say im grateful that changes are being made to make the dungeon better Shows they are willing to change the game to help the players which is awesome.
It’s a great feature because now we can help our friends get levels but I agree how this could become a problem when forming pug groups.
It would probably be a good idea add in a feature to be able to inspect people’s gear or show how much AR they have.
Personally, I don’t think this is elitism. I think people should know if they’re going to do a level 30+, for example, with somebody with no AR or somebody wearing full MF gear. It would become obvious during the first boss fight, but then that’s wasting the other 4 players time up until the fight.
I think it would cause more elitism because then people would now only form groups with people they know and not risk pugging it.
No mention of low fractal level alts actually having decent AR, supplied from say their highest level fractal runner ?
A character with low fractal level does not necessarily mean inexperienced, ill-equipped, or prone to wiping. Maybe they just want to do fractals with a different profession?
I agree, this change is great for guilds and friends, but can have some interesting side effects with pugs.
Honestly…remembering AION, where parties for end-game dungeons would only let you join, if you already had the full set from that very end-game dungeon, I am VERY glad they don’t allow to show fractal levels or gear. How are you ever supposed to get geared or level your fractals, if nobody takes you into their group, unless you’re already at the top?!
Seriously…if you are so concerned about your group members, group with guild people only and be elitist there. If you PuG, expect some newer players to be in your party, take a breath to explain difficult fights and strategies – that really only takes a sentence or two in party chat. Once everyone knows, what to do an when, even new players can be a nice addition to any team. If you don’t want the risk, don’t PuG. Simple.
Honestly…remembering AION, where parties for end-game dungeons would only let you join, if you already had the full set from that very end-game dungeon, I am VERY glad they don’t allow to show fractal levels or gear. How are you ever supposed to get geared or level your fractals, if nobody takes you into their group, unless you’re already at the top?!
Seriously…if you are so concerned about your group members, group with guild people only and be elitist there. If you PuG, expect some newer players to be in your party, take a breath to explain difficult fights and strategies – that really only takes a sentence or two in party chat. Once everyone knows, what to do an when, even new players can be a nice addition to any team. If you don’t want the risk, don’t PuG. Simple.
It’s not a matter of being elitist or not. I think the other members of the group have the right to know if they’re gonna be carrying a full MF gear person or somebody with no AR in higher levels. It’s just common courtesy.
If somebody is wanting to be carried, the other people should know what they’re up for is what I’m saying. (…which is probably going to be leaving that person dead or rezzing them every say 20 seconds during a boss fight)
I’m not saying I’d kick somebody for not having any AR because it’s not their fault for not having any, but I’d atleast like to know who does and who doesn’t.
However, I’d especially like to know if somebody is wearing full MF gear because yes, I would kick them and you and I know there’s gonna be quite a bit of people that will be doing this after this new feature.
And yes, more people will not PUG because of this and you think that’s a good thing?
There is no reason for a level 1 to join a level 30 group. He will be rewarded as a level 1 even though he has just done a level 30. Why would anyone do that? Does that in any way seem to you like typical MMO behaviour?
There is no reason for a level 1 to join a level 30 group. He will be rewarded as a level 1 even though he has just done a level 30. Why would anyone do that? Does that in any way seem to you like typical MMO behaviour?
As unfortunate as it is…yes it does seem like typical MMO behavior. The reason is “because he can”.
I am deeply concerned about this trashing the quality of PUGs. The comforting thing about the high level fractals right now is you DON’T get terrible players because you don’t get to fractal level 30 without knowin what you’re doing. I don’t want players with no idea what they’re doing trashing the higher level fractal attempts. I know exactly what this will turn into: Link your AR gear before joining. It’s what I’ll end up doing. I don’t care if it’s elitism. Fractals is a long dungeon, and I don’t want unskilled players wasting my time because he wants to run with a higher pug.
There is no reason for a level 1 to join a level 30 group. He will be rewarded as a level 1 even though he has just done a level 30. Why would anyone do that? Does that in any way seem to you like typical MMO behaviour?
They never said that, all they said is he would get the “personal rewards” of his level.
Just got a massive headache once after I got into a daily 30 with two people clearly running full MF gear whom one is a guardian who never switched from using his scepter + focus even if there were waves of mobs.
First stage was dredge, then harpies, and last grawls. Dredge and harpies stage took around 2:30 hrs to clear together and by the time we reached grawls, everyone but me has broken gear since I have another set. We proceeded and wiped twice on first miniboss since we’re lacking dps. One of the members who didn’t wear MF gear suddenly just left without saying anything probably out of frustration. I was shaking my head when the other three who remained besides me bursted in laughter calling the one who left ragequitter and one of the MF geared member said it wasn’t their fault we were dying.
I will be expecting more of these horror stories once they implement new fractals system.
Ok I understand that this system/idea is to compliment lower lvl players to advance easier. But do we seriously want a player below 20 to do one in the 40th lvl frats? I wish there is a way to tell what lvl frats they are instead of us repeatedly asking and linking gear to prove if a player can be in our group. And sometimes there are very good players who barely has agony resist but is still able to do 30+ frats (yes I have seen some of them). So I feel that kinda discriminates good players by asking them to link their stats.
all they would need to do is start the difficulty setting at the lowest shared amongst all when you enter the gate so the moment you start the transit you are informed, “Hey, someone here is at level 5, but we can set it up to level 42”.
Personally I like the thought of tiers as well, but if they’re set eliminating previous level requirement except from at least one person, they may as well tell the qualified person if someone is lower than expected.
Honestly, I think the issue of bad PUGs exists at every level and is probably more severe at low FotM levels. I’m currently level 5 and on the way I’ve had two bad PUGs with multiple undergeared members that in addition were also set up as glass cannons. They died literally all. the. time. Not sure if they also had MF gear but that was not the main problem. On some fractals this doesn’t cause an issue but when you hit the Dredge level, it becomes all too obvious. And somehow these players never think a wipe is their fault.
Point is, there are always going to be some bad players. I think you can probably pick them from sight and attitude alone. If someone is on FotM 3 and wants to join a group at 7, and they’re decently geared and responsible, I think that’s fine. However, if that same situation involves a player with visibly bad gear, and (more important) lousy immature attitude, kick them. It doesn’t usually need a gear check.
Onyx: Norn Guardian 80. Queen in Tatters: Asura Mesmer 80.
[The Flameseeker Prophecies] 4/11/13
Itinerant, no guild.
Shows they are willing to change the game to help the players which is awesome.