Condi Thief Thoughts?
Broken ass kitten. You’re welcome.
Well considering thief also has the ultimate in skillful rotation D/D build which consists off C&D, backstab, auto till you can repeat for 30k easy DPS I don’t consider it any more broken than all the other easy rotation for high DPS builds out there.
It’s no less skillful than condi berserker, ranger or power engy for the damage it pulls.
Well considering thief also has the ultimate in skillful rotation D/D build which consists off C&D, backstab, auto till you can repeat for 30k easy DPS I don’t consider it any more broken than all the other easy rotation for high DPS builds out there.
It’s no less skillful than condi berserker, ranger or power engy for the damage it pulls.
it can go way higher than that with fields
(edited by zealex.9410)
Well considering thief also has the ultimate in skillful rotation D/D build which consists off C&D, backstab, auto till you can repeat for 30k easy DPS I don’t consider it any more broken than all the other easy rotation for high DPS builds out there.
It’s no less skillful than condi berserker, ranger or power engy for the damage it pulls.
it can go way higher than that with fields
I was talking about the dagger dagger build being 30k, sure condi thief can go higher, think I saw on teapots stream it was outperforming everything else. However the last few patches have made DPS rotations much much more simple across the board without having the drawbacks of long channels that ele previously had.
Well considering thief also has the ultimate in skillful rotation D/D build which consists off C&D, backstab, auto till you can repeat for 30k easy DPS I don’t consider it any more broken than all the other easy rotation for high DPS builds out there.
It’s no less skillful than condi berserker, ranger or power engy for the damage it pulls.
it can go way higher than that with fields
I was talking about the dagger dagger build being 30k, sure condi thief can go higher, think I saw on teapots stream it was outperforming everything else. However the last few patches have made DPS rotations much much more simple across the board without having the drawbacks of long channels that ele previously had.
Yeah im not familiar with dd thief but the ddcondi thief build with the venoms and dagger 3 spam can dish out some crazy numbers.
I’m not sure where this thread has been going, so let’s see if we can get this thing on track. The OP mentioned wanting to discuss Percent Modifier Traits, and Finishers. I would also like to add The Nature of Condi Thief to the discussion as well.
For comparison sake, let’s take the three more recent condi builds that have sprung up in the meta (and no take root). Engineer, Ranger, and Thief. Taking the qT golem benchmarks (since they’re widely accepted by the community) of these three classes gives us:
Engineer Condi: 35.5
Ranger Condi: 33.8
Thief Condi: 33.0
Percent Modifier Traits
I believe we would all agree that Engineer has the hardest rotation of these three classes, thus them being top in a straight golem would be justifiable. With this spread of numbers, I’m not sure where the OP is going with bringing up the fact that Thief is the only one that gets percent modifiers to condi damage via traits. This spread actually points out that it might not matter that Thief holds that position of having percent modifiers, as that’s what makes them competitive in the first place. I remember screwing up my traits one time and walking into Sabetha with the Critical Strikes line completely missing (contains many percent modifiers for power thief), and I dealt significantly less damage than I should have (35% ish less iirc). Now that’s more anecdotal, and relates to power, but it’s always been known that thieves’ traits tend to be selfish and have had percent modifiers since the beginning. So I’m not sure that there’s much there to tackle considering the current topic.
Finishers
So we’re talking in terms of “Raids and even fractals” as the OP said, meaning we have to deal with finishers and other group buffs. In terms of group buffs, the qT “Realistic Boons” set does not include glyph of empowerment, yet it is an important bonus from Druids during a real fight. To help guide this section I’m gonna link a reddit thread from a month ago with some important links in the OP.
Contained is a Golem Benchmark video showing without (33.4k), and with combo finishers (36.2k) for Condi Thief. Also is a Padl log of Mursaat Overseer with a boss DPS of 37,299. Right off the bat I would note that there was a Glyph of Empowerment uptime of 43%.
The bonus from the whirl finishers resulted in a 2.8k DPS bump in a straight Golem fight. Condi Thief has 2 whirl finishers, Death Blossom, and Impaling Lotus. Let us compare this to Condi Ranger (If someone would like to Compare with Eng, pls do, cause I know like nothing about Eng). Condi Ranger has 1 guaranteed projectile combo finisher (Sb4), and 3 20% proc rate projectile finishers (Sb1, Axe1, and Axe2). There aren’t any numbers available on how much Ranger projectile combos add to DPS that I know of, but I would think it is lower compared to Thief just because of sheer proc rate. The Whirl Finishers of Thief seem to be the biggest imbalance’er of this DPS spectrum we have here. I might be totally wrong here, but iirc, all the currently 20% proc rate projectile finishers used to have a 100% proc rate. Perhaps the whirl finishers need a similar treatment? Any other kind of nerf that I can think of (for now) only hurts the core of Condi Thief. The issue here isn’t the solo play (Venomshare only works in a group btw – more below) as demonstrated by the non combo finisher Golem Benchmarks at the beginning, it’s how well the Condi Thief benefits from having others around (+2.8k DPS from fields).
“The Nature of Condi Thief”, and TLDR below. (I’m sorry, my wall of text is too big even for the system)
The Nature of Condi Thief
Let us not forget that historically, and even now, Thief has been the selfish DPS class that focuses on buffing itself, and receiving buffs from others. If a class brings no other group utility than DPS itself, shouldn’t it be justified in having high DPS? Perhaps not ridiculously high, but certainly competitive for no. 1 (with limitations based on ease of play). Condi Ranger for instance brings mass immobilizations, highly useful on Gors, Sam, and Deimos. Ele brings mass stun breaks for stuff like Sloth.
We also have the issue of ranged (hybrid) vs. melee classes. When working for my Deimos CM kill, I was a little bugged that we couldn’t come up with a strat that allowed for a pure melee class (which Condi Thief is). Ranged damage is a commodity all its own, and ought to be regarded as such when dealing with sheer DPS. In the course of any fight, there’s often instances when everyone needs to step out of melee due to mechanics or w/e. In fractals this is easily seen on MAMA post 30%, and in Raids with Deimos due to the black/oil circles. In these instances, ranged (and even hybrid) DPS classes are still able to continue damaging the mob while pure melee builds are stuck there twiddling their thumbs.
And on to Venomshare itself. Venoms account for a significant portion of total DPS for Condi Thief. Venoms work by granting others the means to apply damage for you. The damage of others is not buffed when you give them venoms, they merely become the vessels through which your damage is applied. Thus Venomshare, Condi Thief, only functions in a team setting, and only 1 Venomshare can really work per group. Venomshare Thieves also have a little issue when it comes to other Venomshare Thieves. We overwrite each other’s venoms. Thus it’s hard to envision the idea of 4 Venomshares in the same raid squad. Even if you’re calling out venom application in voice comms, you’re still probably going to run into the issue of delaying venoms, thus still shorting DPS.
TLDR:
Percent Traits don’t do anything outlandish.
Maybe Percent Proc Rates need to be added to Death Blossom and Impaling Lotus to counter Condi Thief’s benefit from groups.
Thief is pure melee, brings no group buffs, and Venomshare can only work in a group setting with 1 per group. Shouldn’t it be warranted to have somewhat higher DPS?
Well that’s pretty awesome thanks for the insight.
Thief is pure melee, brings no group buffs, and Venomshare can only work in a group setting with 1 per group. Shouldn’t it be warranted to have somewhat higher DPS?
For pretty much autoattack and dodge? No.
For pretty much autoattack and dodge? No.
I disagree. More important than anything is that classes can pull comparable numbers within their own playstyle regardless of the difficulty of that rotation. If condition Engineer could pull 35k DPS “just because it’s hard to play” and everything else could never go higher than 25k, then you’d create a situation where you’re only ever realistically allowed to play Engineer in the meta and you’d hurt build and class diversity substantially. If people enjoy the challenge, they can play their Engineer right now and enjoy that playstyle in raids without infringing on the ability for others to play other things. It’s good the way it is.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
For pretty much autoattack and dodge? No.
I disagree. More important than anything is that classes can pull comparable numbers within their own playstyle regardless of the difficulty of that rotation. If condition Engineer could pull 35k DPS “just because it’s hard to play” and everything else could never go higher than 25k, then you’d create a situation where you’re only ever realistically allowed to play Engineer in the meta and you’d hurt build and class diversity substantially. If people enjoy the challenge, they can play their Engineer right now and enjoy that playstyle in raids without infringing on the ability for others to play other things. It’s good the way it is.
No, it’s people that hurt build diversity in these situations especially when you make a less extreme example of 30k. Idiots go around telling everyone to play ele or kick, smart people tell a person to bring their best DPS class (sorry revs) and judge a person based on their performance. Only a few bosses I would favour certain classes on and that’s only because they have extremely strong burst damage, I am not going for a speed clear just a prompt easy clear and for that most classes can run most bosses and be fine.
its good to judge someone based on their performance i prefer it from judging ppl based on the class they play.
I think it really does good dps but it’s niche. Like I don’t want to bring a condi thief to Sabetha and Matt but it’s really good against Gors, and MO
For pretty much autoattack and dodge? No.
I disagree. More important than anything is that classes can pull comparable numbers within their own playstyle regardless of the difficulty of that rotation. If condition Engineer could pull 35k DPS “just because it’s hard to play” and everything else could never go higher than 25k, then you’d create a situation where you’re only ever realistically allowed to play Engineer in the meta and you’d hurt build and class diversity substantially. If people enjoy the challenge, they can play their Engineer right now and enjoy that playstyle in raids without infringing on the ability for others to play other things. It’s good the way it is.
Consider an average player who can get 20k by autoattacking on a staff thief or struggle to hit 12k on ele. Don’t you think it hurst build and class diversity? Does it give any incentive to master the hard class? What for – to achieve the same numbers after a lot of time practicing and with considerably more effort?
What you describe is only true for veteran players with a lot of experience on their characters. And the truth is, they would do just fine on any dps class. Many of them will choose to go for the “optimal”, but that’s a matter of their own choice.
Consider an average player who can get 20k by autoattacking on a staff thief or struggle to hit 12k on ele. Don’t you think it hurst build and class diversity?
No, it doesn’t. A player who is not comfortable with a class will down, miss DPS regardless, and require a lot of carrying. If you’re comfortable with a class you’ll have more DPS windows and easily pull modest, comparable damage numbers without ever being a master at the class. I witness this frequently with extremely average players on every DPS class; they pull their 20k DPS numbers on whatever they’re most comfortable on, regardless of what that DPS class actually is.
Does it give any incentive to master the hard class?
The incentive to master the hard class is because you enjoy the hard class.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
Consider an average player who can get 20k by autoattacking on a staff thief or struggle to hit 12k on ele. Don’t you think it hurst build and class diversity?
No, it doesn’t. A player who is not comfortable with a class will down, miss DPS regardless, and require a lot of carrying. If you’re comfortable with a class you’ll have more DPS windows and easily pull modest, comparable damage numbers without ever being a master at the class. I witness this frequently with extremely average players on every DPS class; they pull their 20k DPS numbers on whatever they’re most comfortable on, regardless of what that DPS class actually is.
Does it give any incentive to master the hard class?
The incentive to master the hard class is because you enjoy the hard class.
Personally, the class’s build difficulty is irrelevant to me. What’s more important to me is what class/build can I bring that will more consistently deliver high damage. Sometimes it’s condi Ranger, sometimes it’s Dagger ele, maybe Staff DD, or even just a condi Mesmer. It’s really just boils down to the encounter, and the most satisfying thing to witness is seeing your squad swap classes/build as you go through the various encounters.
I’ve poked around with condi thief but can’t say I’m comfortable enough with it yet to add it to my rotation. Engi? No thanks, I’ve tried and tried again, and I just can’t pull it off, and the demand of that build is so much that even playing it at a mediocre level drops its damage potential by quite a lot.
But that’s just my two copper on that discussion. Back on topic though: my thoughts on the condi thief class/build?
For one, I agree that it’s nice to see an alternative build published that isn’t just another Power sniper. Thematically I’ve always see rogue/assassin types to rely on poisons of sorts so seeing Thieves make use of venoms makes my inner DnD nerd happy. Play style-wise? Pretty straight forward but relies on allies being around to get the most mileage out of your venoms which isn’t an issue the majority of the time. As far as some people saying it’s too strong? I mean, Thieves are our rogue/assassin class so I would expect them to have one of the higher damage potentials out of all the classes.
Thief is pure melee, brings no group buffs, and Venomshare can only work in a group setting with 1 per group. Shouldn’t it be warranted to have somewhat higher DPS?
For pretty much autoattack and dodge? No.
Would like to clarify that auto attack deals insignificant damage compared to what Death Blossom and dodge bring. Most of the damage is from bleeding, and then poison. Most of that is coming from Blossom and dodge; auto attack is merely a filler in between Blossom and dodge in order to space out the Lotus Condi Buff.
And I would note that it isn’t simply just blossoming and dodging all over the place. These are your survival skills that must be timed and executed around mechanics or you’re toast. Blossom has a rather irritating after cast that, if executed wrongly during Sabetha, for instance, will land you stuck in front of a spawning flame wall, or receiving a timed bomb while locked in animations with no time leave the group before detonation. On bosses like her I’m often tempted to just swap to condi ranger or something similar so I could just stand there and have better reactions in order to counter embarrassingly simple mechanics. Yes it’s technically a three button rotation (not including utilities and geomancy swaps), but I’d say underestimating the movement and positioning required for it is a mistake. Animation locks become very dangerous on several fights.
Condi Ranger certainly has more than a 3 button rotation, but I consider it to be much easier than Condi Thief since it can just sit there and execute its rotation.
On that meta discussion… I’m pretty sure most of us are in agreement that if a spec pulls the numbers it’s fine. If a commander wants to go all authoritarian on an LFG and accept only eles, I just won’t join. I don’t normally want to use my ele, nor can I force him to take a thief or w/e.
Thief is pure melee, brings no group buffs, and Venomshare can only work in a group setting with 1 per group. Shouldn’t it be warranted to have somewhat higher DPS?
For pretty much autoattack and dodge? No.
Would like to clarify that auto attack deals insignificant damage compared to what Death Blossom and dodge bring. Most of the damage is from bleeding, and then poison. Most of that is coming from Blossom and dodge; auto attack is merely a filler in between Blossom and dodge in order to space out the Lotus Condi Buff.
And I would note that it isn’t simply just blossoming and dodging all over the place. These are your survival skills that must be timed and executed around mechanics or you’re toast. Blossom has a rather irritating after cast that, if executed wrongly during Sabetha, for instance, will land you stuck in front of a spawning flame wall, or receiving a timed bomb while locked in animations with no time leave the group before detonation. On bosses like her I’m often tempted to just swap to condi ranger or something similar so I could just stand there and have better reactions in order to counter embarrassingly simple mechanics. Yes it’s technically a three button rotation (not including utilities and geomancy swaps), but I’d say underestimating the movement and positioning required for it is a mistake. Animation locks become very dangerous on several fights.
Condi Ranger certainly has more than a 3 button rotation, but I consider it to be much easier than Condi Thief since it can just sit there and execute its rotation.
On that meta discussion… I’m pretty sure most of us are in agreement that if a spec pulls the numbers it’s fine. If a commander wants to go all authoritarian on an LFG and accept only eles, I just won’t join. I don’t normally want to use my ele, nor can I force him to take a thief or w/e.
I agree, it must be very frustrating to have to deal with mechanics on the only boss that gives 0 quaggans about evade frames. Now if you excuse me I’ll go back to casting a 3s uninterruptible channel every 5.25s.
I agree, it must be very frustrating to have to deal with mechanics on the only boss that gives 0 quaggans about evade frames. Now if you excuse me I’ll go back to casting a 3s uninterruptible channel every 5.25s.
Ok, perhaps delaying every other portion of the rotation in order to get it to align with VG’s blue circles. Maybe blossoming into Deimos at an unfortunate time and catching the front of his 360 knockback off the edge. Maybe pull the same Sab example and put it to Cairn’s arm.
These are all silly mechanics that deserve mockery for falling to them. I ain’t saying that it’s some great task of immeasurable proportion that Condi Thief requires in terms of positioning. But every dodge and every blossom demands a check of where the fight is before committing to it (and there are a lot of dodges and blossoms). Do clarify if I’m wrong, but your frequent casts sounds like fresh air ele. Most of those mechanics require simple side steps during the casts, if in danger at all. Just by virtue of executing the Condi Thief rotation you’re put in danger of being hit by everything from frontals to the stray miss-timed mechanic.
If it’s the seemingly perma evade windows that are the issue with Condi Thief then bring that up. I would counter with that it’s not really perma at all. Timing and positioning is everything, and any time foot is set on the ground a Condi Thief is vulnerable. Tie that it with a mechanic that appeared when the Thief was still animation locked and the Thief is screwed.
Having played Condi Thief excessively I accept all these positioning risks and enjoy them. Rotations like PS warr, Condi Ranger, and the like put me to sleep. Just cause a build has less buttons than the next doesn’t mean it is any easier.
Maybe it’s another issue and we could discuss a way to nerf it. I already brought up ways to deal with combo finishers earlier in the thread, as those seemed to be major imbalancers due to their frequency. Though, I would instead say, maybe we should look into ways to make combos more relevant across the board. I remember one of the earlier game trailers featured an ele and a ranger facing down an oakheart. The ele laid down a fire field at the ranger’s feet and he proceeded to fire his bow thru it at the oakheart. If combos were a relevant and perhaps selling feature then, then maybe they ought to be looked at as something to build up to a meaningful place in DPS builds.
It’s too strong and needs to be nerfed for sure. Not a huge nerf. I think a 2k -3k dps nerf should bring it in line with other dps classes
Quantify [qT]
No, it doesn’t. A player who is not comfortable with a class will down, miss DPS regardless, and require a lot of carrying. If you’re comfortable with a class you’ll have more DPS windows and easily pull modest, comparable damage numbers without ever being a master at the class. I witness this frequently with extremely average players on every DPS class; they pull their 20k DPS numbers on whatever they’re most comfortable on, regardless of what that DPS class actually is.
Except not really. I made the experiment myself – went with a staff thief in a raid and just autoattacked and dodged when the situation called for it. I’m not familiar at all with the class and I was doing 20k+ dps. That’s more than enough to pull my own weight. Most pug eles I’ve seen do 12-14k. Yeah, it’s modest. But it is certainly not comparable.
Does it give any incentive to master the hard class?
The incentive to master the hard class is because you enjoy the hard class.
Right, and the peer pressure to not weigh your group down? 6-8k or more dps deficit means longer fights. Longer fights mean more mistakes, more mistakes mean even more dps lost. You can enjoy your harder class in the open world just as well, can’t you?
Does it give any incentive to master the hard class?
The incentive to master the hard class is because you enjoy the hard class.
Right, and the peer pressure to not weigh your group down? 6-8k or more dps deficit means longer fights. Longer fights mean more mistakes, more mistakes mean even more dps lost. You can enjoy your harder class in the open world just as well, can’t you?
I mean, that’s really up to the squad. If you signed up for a clearing group you know very well going into it that the squad is looking for consistency. Regardless of the class and build, they’re looking for tried and true. Feeling like experimenting with a new class or build? Well that’s up to the squad lead, otherwise you’re looking at experimenting on your own.
It’s a game after all. Some players want a challenge, others subscribe to the “build of the month”, while other couldn’t care less about what’s meta and what isn’t and would much rather go off and do their own thing.
While Staff DD can easily out-perform most classes that are played at a mediocre level…..it’s so boring. So yeah, I’d much rather take condi thief that is more engaging because anything is better than just auto-attacking. Can’t DPS if I fall asleep on my keyboard
I agree, it must be very frustrating to have to deal with mechanics on the only boss that gives 0 quaggans about evade frames. Now if you excuse me I’ll go back to casting a 3s uninterruptible channel every 5.25s.
Ok, perhaps delaying every other portion of the rotation in order to get it to align with VG’s blue circles. Maybe blossoming into Deimos at an unfortunate time and catching the front of his 360 knockback off the edge. Maybe pull the same Sab example and put it to Cairn’s arm.
These are all silly mechanics that deserve mockery for falling to them. I ain’t saying that it’s some great task of immeasurable proportion that Condi Thief requires in terms of positioning. But every dodge and every blossom demands a check of where the fight is before committing to it (and there are a lot of dodges and blossoms). Do clarify if I’m wrong, but your frequent casts sounds like fresh air ele. Most of those mechanics require simple side steps during the casts, if in danger at all. Just by virtue of executing the Condi Thief rotation you’re put in danger of being hit by everything from frontals to the stray miss-timed mechanic.
If it’s the seemingly perma evade windows that are the issue with Condi Thief then bring that up. I would counter with that it’s not really perma at all. Timing and positioning is everything, and any time foot is set on the ground a Condi Thief is vulnerable. Tie that it with a mechanic that appeared when the Thief was still animation locked and the Thief is screwed.
Having played Condi Thief excessively I accept all these positioning risks and enjoy them. Rotations like PS warr, Condi Ranger, and the like put me to sleep. Just cause a build has less buttons than the next doesn’t mean it is any easier.
Maybe it’s another issue and we could discuss a way to nerf it. I already brought up ways to deal with combo finishers earlier in the thread, as those seemed to be major imbalancers due to their frequency. Though, I would instead say, maybe we should look into ways to make combos more relevant across the board. I remember one of the earlier game trailers featured an ele and a ranger facing down an oakheart. The ele laid down a fire field at the ranger’s feet and he proceeded to fire his bow thru it at the oakheart. If combos were a relevant and perhaps selling feature then, then maybe they ought to be looked at as something to build up to a meaningful place in DPS builds.
My point was that everything you’re making out to be so difficult about condi thief other classes also have to deal with. PS war had to deal with being animation locked in HB back when they ran GS, eles have lots of long channels, plenty of 1s casts on multiple classes which you have to make sure you don’t have to interrupt by doing mechanics.
The mechanic you are complaining about being animation locked on and potentially failing, which imo is barely worth complaining about, is also exactly 1 boss. In all other bosses afaik you would have either completed the animation and be able to dodge or the evade frame would cover you for the mechanic.
Personally I think the dagger auto being reduced could be a decent place to hit 2 birds with 1 stone as the D/D power is literally 3 buttons for excellent damage so could do with a tone down by 1-2k which would hit condi thief. You can then adjust a little of the condi thief’s damage specifically down by another 1-2k and see where it stands.
TLDR:
Percent Traits don’t do anything outlandish.
Maybe Percent Proc Rates need to be added to Death Blossom and Impaling Lotus to counter Condi Thief’s benefit from groups.
Thief is pure melee, brings no group buffs, and Venomshare can only work in a group setting with 1 per group. Shouldn’t it be warranted to have somewhat higher DPS?
Power necro would like to have a word with you.
TLDR:
Percent Traits don’t do anything outlandish.
Maybe Percent Proc Rates need to be added to Death Blossom and Impaling Lotus to counter Condi Thief’s benefit from groups.
Thief is pure melee, brings no group buffs, and Venomshare can only work in a group setting with 1 per group. Shouldn’t it be warranted to have somewhat higher DPS?Power necro would like to have a word with you.
……you sir/ma’am are my new spirit animal.
Does it give any incentive to master the hard class?
The incentive to master the hard class is because you enjoy the hard class.
Right, and the peer pressure to not weigh your group down? 6-8k or more dps deficit means longer fights. Longer fights mean more mistakes, more mistakes mean even more dps lost. You can enjoy your harder class in the open world just as well, can’t you?
I mean, that’s really up to the squad. If you signed up for a clearing group you know very well going into it that the squad is looking for consistency. Regardless of the class and build, they’re looking for tried and true. Feeling like experimenting with a new class or build? Well that’s up to the squad lead, otherwise you’re looking at experimenting on your own.
It’s a game after all. Some players want a challenge, others subscribe to the “build of the month”, while other couldn’t care less about what’s meta and what isn’t and would much rather go off and do their own thing.
While Staff DD can easily out-perform most classes that are played at a mediocre level…..it’s so boring. So yeah, I’d much rather take condi thief that is more engaging because anything is better than just auto-attacking. Can’t DPS if I fall asleep on my keyboard
I wasn’t talking about snowflake builds. This is an entirely different discussion. And while I agree just autoattacking is dull and boring, it doesn’t mean everyone cares about that.
My point was that everything you’re making out to be so difficult about condi thief other classes also have to deal with. PS war had to deal with being animation locked in HB back when they ran GS, eles have lots of long channels, plenty of 1s casts on multiple classes which you have to make sure you don’t have to interrupt by doing mechanics.
The mechanic you are complaining about being animation locked on and potentially failing, which imo is barely worth complaining about, is also exactly 1 boss. In all other bosses afaik you would have either completed the animation and be able to dodge or the evade frame would cover you for the mechanic.
Personally I think the dagger auto being reduced could be a decent place to hit 2 birds with 1 stone as the D/D power is literally 3 buttons for excellent damage so could do with a tone down by 1-2k which would hit condi thief. You can then adjust a little of the condi thief’s damage specifically down by another 1-2k and see where it stands.
I didn’t think I was complaining about those instances. I’m just saying that although a build has less buttons to deal with doesn’t automatically make the build any easier to play (and in turn requiring a nerf on the grounds of sheer ease); there’s other things to account for. This thing is animation locked 50% of the time with no way to break it, once you commit you’re stuck with wherever you’re going. I can’t think of really any other abilities used as frequently that cannot be moved during or at least cancel the cast.
And if it’s evades that are supposed to be the guard for that, I’ll take it, but as another issue, Blossom needs tuning in that regard. More often than not the evade frame ends before the tail end of Blossom. Not to mention Blossom is still affected by movement buffs after that change years ago to all leaps/charges/movement skills. It’s amusing flying halfway across the field with an unexpected super speed, and irritating only going half the distance back to the boss with a chilled Blossom. (On that note, if it does get fixed please make blossom go the same distance as dodge by default, it just makes everything much smoother). I’d also say the responsiveness could be tuned up as well. A similar ability, staff 2, weakening charge, when I hit it I know it’s going to go off; Blossom just doesn’t fire when asked some times (different buttons for me, but no it’s not a hardware responsiveness issue). These are just side suggestions, but they would go a long way for QoL.
And I would love to see an across the board significant AA nerf for thieves with boosts to initiative abilities to balance it. I’m sick of this AA only mentality. Only issue I foresee with it is pvp burst balancing, especially with preparedness and the like. But AA dmg for Condi Thief just isn’t that significant in terms of the whole thing. Perhaps a nerf like that would be just enough to put it in line with where ppl think it needs to be, idk.
(edited by Kahrin.2137)
Condi thief is in a good place. Very high damage under the right circumstances but with several draw backs and on a class that only really offers dps and break bar (at least until raids make their unrivaled mobility, and access to stealth relevant). The draw backs are obviously: basically no utility, full melee, pathetic cleave against adds (which also dilute damage against the boss), requires nearby teammates to share venoms to to do reasonable damage. And I stress once more thief only really offers dps in the current state of raids, they should therefore be one of the top dps professions which the venom build helps them to be.
14 Dungeon paths soloed
Lupi solos on 9/9 professions
Wost Engi NA
Lupi solos on 9/9 professions
Wost Engi NA
Like ele offers anything beside dps? Only lower, and using 3x more skills?
Like ele offers anything beside dps? Only lower, and using 3x more skills?
Ele has great aoe cleave against adds and at least a bit more range. I do agree ele DPS against small hit boxes should be brought up a bit.
14 Dungeon paths soloed
Lupi solos on 9/9 professions
Wost Engi NA
Lupi solos on 9/9 professions
Wost Engi NA
Like ele offers anything beside dps? Only lower, and using 3x more skills?
Ele has great aoe cleave against adds and at least a bit more range. I do agree ele DPS against small hit boxes should be brought up a bit.
Ele cleave only really comes into relevance on 3 bosses and range is subjective as they will be close to everyone else or mostly running D/Wh due to small hitboxes. Ele doesn’t need a buff, it’s condi thief that needs tuning down.
Edit: by toning down I mean 3-4k shaving off then see how it goes not delete it from existence like every thief main usually reads that.
If you factor in the bosses where condition thief is terrible (Deimos, Slothasor, KC, and VG) and then factor in the bosses where it excels (Gorseval, Matthias, Cairn, Mursaat), you find that it really doesn’t need any kind of a shave. If you reduced it by 3-4k DPS, you’d just find that no one would run it anywhere because it doesn’t offer any advantages over other classes that can either produce damage at range, cleave well, have unique/beneficial utility, or whatever.
I sure hope ANet looks at this stuff more holistically than a lot of the posters in these recent balance threads that have been coming up. Sheesh.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
If you factor in the bosses where condition thief is terrible (Deimos, Slothasor, KC, and VG) and then factor in the bosses where it excels (Gorseval, Matthias, Cairn, Mursaat), you find that it really doesn’t need any kind of a shave. If you reduced it by 3-4k DPS, you’d just find that no one would run it anywhere because it doesn’t offer any advantages over other classes that can either produce damage at range, cleave well, have unique/beneficial utility, or whatever.
I sure hope ANet looks at this stuff more holistically than a lot of the posters in these recent balance threads that have been coming up. Sheesh.
Considering it’s getting 38k and some claim they’ve seen 40k then a 3-4k shave would bring it to a solid 34-37k range where it still vastly outperforms most options on a much easier rotation. There’s your reason to run it, it’s like math is hard. Sheesh.
Edit: Wait weren’t you the guy that was trying to convince everyone that people would play it because it’s fun if it pulled comparable numbers to other classes?
(edited by apharma.3741)
Considering it’s getting 38k and some claim they’ve seen 40k then a 3-4k shave would bring it to a solid 34-37k range where it still vastly outperforms most options on a much easier rotation. There’s your reason to run it, it’s like math is hard. Sheesh.
Yes, we should totally balance all classes based on how they perform on the DPS golem boss. It’s like understanding context or words is hard. Sheesh.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
Considering it’s getting 38k and some claim they’ve seen 40k then a 3-4k shave would bring it to a solid 34-37k range where it still vastly outperforms most options on a much easier rotation. There’s your reason to run it, it’s like math is hard. Sheesh.
Yes, we should totally balance all classes based on how they perform on the DPS golem boss. It’s like understanding context or words is hard. Sheesh.
Um no, these are numbers from actual raid scenarios where condi thief pulls higher numbers due to combo fields.
On stream last week the Condi thief had a 38k pull on overseer. Tgat was higher than normal but 37k isn’t crazy
We have a kill where deathly peaked at 37k aswell without take root
You even replied in these threads!
(edited by apharma.3741)
Um no, these are numbers from actual raid scenarios where condi thief pulls higher numbers due to combo fields.
No kitten, lol. Maybe you should read your own quotes where they’re pointing out “overseer” as the boss (AKA: DPS golem boss).
Maybe we should nerf condition reaper too while we’re at it. I was getting 36k on Deimos last week. That number is so scary and big compared to those other normal classes, it obviously needs a shave.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
Considering it’s getting 38k and some claim they’ve seen 40k then a 3-4k shave would bring it to a solid 34-37k range where it still vastly outperforms most options on a much easier rotation. There’s your reason to run it, it’s like math is hard. Sheesh.
Yes, we should totally balance all classes based on how they perform on the DPS golem boss. It’s like understanding context or words is hard. Sheesh.
But it’s fine when the balance nerfs another class based on the same premise, right? Sheesh.
But it’s fine when the balance nerfs another class based on the same premise, right? Sheesh.
The funny thing about being salty regarding Elementalist nerfs is that it’s still better than literally every other DPS class in the fights it excels at.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
Um no, these are numbers from actual raid scenarios where condi thief pulls higher numbers due to combo fields.
No kitten, lol. Maybe you should read your own quotes where they’re pointing out “overseer” as the boss (AKA: DPS golem boss).
Maybe we should nerf condition reaper too while we’re at it. I was getting 36k on Deimos last week. That number is so scary and big compared to those other normal classes, it obviously needs a shave.
I’ve seen it do that on gorseval and samarog too, this isn’t isolated to golems and golem type bosses but keep being passive aggressive and declaring high numbers on bosses with mechanics where they take massively increased damage at times.
But it’s fine when the balance nerfs another class based on the same premise, right? Sheesh.
The funny thing about being salty regarding Elementalist nerfs is that it’s still better than literally every other DPS class in the fights it excels at.
Right, I’ll tell that myself next time we pug a 12k dps one.
Um no, these are numbers from actual raid scenarios where condi thief pulls higher numbers due to combo fields.
No kitten, lol. Maybe you should read your own quotes where they’re pointing out “overseer” as the boss (AKA: DPS golem boss).
Maybe we should nerf condition reaper too while we’re at it. I was getting 36k on Deimos last week. That number is so scary and big compared to those other normal classes, it obviously needs a shave.
I’ve seen it do that on gorseval and samarog too, this isn’t isolated to golems and golem type bosses but keep being passive aggressive and declaring high numbers on bosses with mechanics where they take massively increased damage at times.
Gorsy – doesn’t move if you no-updraft
Sam – if every stays on the boss, doesn’t move as well
I’ll start calling the build OP once I see the numbers reach that high on things like Matthias or VG in the final phases. Even still, we’re talking Thief here. Them along with Ele’s should have the highest damage output. Granted they’ll be the first ones to drop to the ground after a missed green or a Haduken to the face.
Even still, we’re talking Thief here. Them along with Ele’s should have the highest damage output. Granted they’ll be the first ones to drop to the ground after a missed green or a Haduken to the face.
Right, except ele doesn’t do its dps by using 2 weapon skills and a dodge.
Even still, we’re talking Thief here. Them along with Ele’s should have the highest damage output. Granted they’ll be the first ones to drop to the ground after a missed green or a Haduken to the face.
Right, except ele doesn’t do its dps by using 2 weapon skills and a dodge.
No they don’t, but I don’t see Thieves offering passive Protection, stun breaks, rebounds, and healing….well, I guess there’s skelk venom. So being able to offer group support while still having high damage potential (albeit at the cost of having an actual rotation)? I’ll take it.
Edit: My point being that Thieves are Ele’s were introduced into the game as the ones being top damage dealers in contrast to something like Guardian that was introduced as more of a defensive archtype. Though Daredevil further advanced Thief’s damage role while Tempest shifted Ele into more of a support role (or at least has more potential to be). So seeing a Daredevil produce high numbers with something as simple as auto-attack and dodge? I can’t say I’m too surprised at that.
(edited by savacli.8172)
Even still, we’re talking Thief here. Them along with Ele’s should have the highest damage output. Granted they’ll be the first ones to drop to the ground after a missed green or a Haduken to the face.
Right, except ele doesn’t do its dps by using 2 weapon skills and a dodge.
No they don’t, but I don’t see Thieves offering passive Protection, stun breaks, rebounds, and healing….well, I guess there’s skelk venom. So being able to offer group support while still having high damage potential (albeit at the cost of having an actual rotation)? I’ll take it.
Edit: My point being that Thieves are Ele’s were introduced into the game as the ones being top damage dealers in contrast to something like Guardian that was introduced as more of a defensive archtype. Though Daredevil further advanced Thief’s damage role while Tempest shifted Ele into more of a support role (or at least has more potential to be). So seeing a Daredevil produce high numbers with something as simple as auto-attack and dodge? I can’t say I’m too surprised at that.
You don’t see eles providing prot either, because taking Earth is a huge dps loss and nobody does it on a dps build. “Rebound!” and the free stunbreak from Gale Song are occasionally used – again, because they result in a dps loss, albeit a lot smaller – but there’s basi venom and don’t tell me it has no value for the group. The minor heal from the shout is hardly worth all the struggle to maintain reasonable dps you could easily achieve with a thief. The only actual advantage is cleave, but this isn’t a factor on so many bosses.
P.S. Of course you’d take it, the grass is always greener on the other side, you know. But as an ele main since vanilla, I feel offended at 1-button builds that outperform a properly played rotation.