Could the Agony-System be reworked?
I don’t think removing it is good, or healthy for the game. Additionally, with the way the game hands out ascended items, agony infusions and gold it really shouldn’t be an issue to gear up should you fancy yourself wanting to do it on an alt.
I agree with TexZero. After the last agony rework, and the INFUZ golem, the agony system is actually really healthy for the first character, and and giving people a reason to go for more non-legendary gear is a good thing.
One of the devs was on here a few months ago. Basically they said that if there were designing it from scratch, they would have made it account wide progression rather than single character progression. But at this point, it is probably too much of a change to switch. So, it seems unlikely.
Just one of many reasons I like dungeons and raids more.
Raid and Fractals are not comparable in this regard.
In raid, you have a raid organizer who is the gatekeeper of whether you can run w/your alt. In most guilds I have been in, they make some effort in verifying the builds/gears you are running is legit. Even in a crunch, most would verify you are running the correct traits/utilities.
In fractals, you PUG most of the time. To other PUGs, the Infusion system & the personal fractal level system are the only real gatekeepers. Without infusion system, others have no way to verify that you are just running on your alt w/green gears, looking to be carried.
I agree with TexZero. After the last agony rework, and the INFUZ golem, the agony system is actually really healthy for the first character
Yes. For the first character.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I agree with TexZero. After the last agony rework, and the INFUZ golem, the agony system is actually really healthy for the first character
Yes. For the first character.
…and it only becomes easier for subsequent characters.
I have one of each profession fully geared out thanks to primarily fractals. I’ve personally only crafted 2 sets out of the 14 i have on those 9 and have an additional 37 boxes on a storage character.
Just to further this, the average gold gain per week of fractals just from opening the encryptions is 100G. If you’re really dead set in getting that sweet sweet Alt geared use that to your advantage as it should only take you ~ 4 weeks to fully gear using that assuming you get no drops whatsoever.
I agree with TexZero. After the last agony rework, and the INFUZ golem, the agony system is actually really healthy for the first character
Yes. For the first character.
…and it only becomes easier for subsequent characters.
I have one of each profession fully geared out thanks to primarily fractals. I’ve personally only crafted 2 sets out of the 14 i have on those 9 and have an additional 37 boxes on a storage character.
Just to further this, the average gold gain per week of fractals just from opening the encryptions is 100G. If you’re really dead set in getting that sweet sweet Alt geared use that to your advantage as it should only take you ~ 4 weeks to fully gear using that assuming you get no drops whatsoever.
Yes, after you are clearing T4 fractals, which means you still need the up front gold to get a full set of ascended gear and 150 AR to be running those fractals daily.
I don’t have a problem with the AR system though
I agree with TexZero. After the last agony rework, and the INFUZ golem, the agony system is actually really healthy for the first character
Yes. For the first character.
…and it only becomes easier for subsequent characters.
I have one of each profession fully geared out thanks to primarily fractals. I’ve personally only crafted 2 sets out of the 14 i have on those 9 and have an additional 37 boxes on a storage character.
Just to further this, the average gold gain per week of fractals just from opening the encryptions is 100G. If you’re really dead set in getting that sweet sweet Alt geared use that to your advantage as it should only take you ~ 4 weeks to fully gear using that assuming you get no drops whatsoever.
Yes, after you are clearing T4 fractals, which means you still need the up front gold to get a full set of ascended gear and 150 AR to be running those fractals daily.
I don’t have a problem with the AR system though
You don’t even need up front gold, just patience. Play the mode from 1-100 as it’s actually intended and you’ll get plenty of gold. If you hit a snag with AR you can re-run through levels you enjoy or want to learn on to get even more gold. Use said time investment and gear up piecemeal.
If for some reason you think this is unacceptable, it’s due to a personal belief that you should be at the end when in reality that causes more problems than it solves. Additionally, the liquid gold generation from fractal’s not just t4 is pretty silly. T2 which only requires a maximum of 61 AR can be done on Trinkets and Backpiece alone making this an even more moot debate as those are all shareable.
Keep in mind that ascended gear is even easier to come by now than it’s ever been, Backpacks can be obtained on the cheap via living world, Trinkets from guild missions/fractals/laurels. Armor & Weapons can be from various achievements, random drops from containers, randomly rewarded from fractals, crafted, obtained via PvP/Raids/WvW….etc.
This leaves your only barrier being slotting the AR, which is given out at absurd rates. You should be getting and this is based on rough maths and some luck about 130 +1 AR per daily run of T4’s (Considering this entire premise is about alts to begin with) that’s enough that within 10 days you’ll have a relatively cost free +9 AR.
The TL:DR here is fractals pay for themselves and then some. Changing the system because people want to reduce wait isn’t the right solution.
Removing agony would remove one of the core traits of Fractals that made them more unique than dungeons. And it’d destroy the biggest justification for ascended equipment in the game.
You have to agree though that Agony is not alt friendly mechanic.
I agree with TexZero. After the last agony rework, and the INFUZ golem, the agony system is actually really healthy for the first character
Yes. For the first character.
…and it only becomes easier for subsequent characters.
Yes, it becomes easier, but that’s not what i was talking about. It was about the system being healthy. Which it is…. for the first character. For the next ones, not so much.
I have one of each profession fully geared out thanks to primarily fractals. I’ve personally only crafted 2 sets out of the 14 i have on those 9 and have an additional 37 boxes on a storage character.
Just to further this, the average gold gain per week of fractals just from opening the encryptions is 100G. If you’re really dead set in getting that sweet sweet Alt geared use that to your advantage as it should only take you ~ 4 weeks to fully gear using that assuming you get no drops whatsoever.
It’s still a month to equip one char for fractals. If you happen to run them every day. Maybe you consider that healthy – i don’t. Especially, since there’s no reason for the agony barrier to exist anymore once someone already got throu it once or twice.
Removing agony would remove one of the core traits of Fractals that made them more unique than dungeons. And it’d destroy the biggest justification for ascended equipment in the game.
You’re speaking as if that last part was a bad thing.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
AR is only really a gold-gate at this point. Someone with enough coin can pay for everything needed outright, without ever setting foot into a fractal. It’s annoying.
Come to think of it, probably working as intended. Lol.
It’s still a month to equip one char for fractals. If you happen to run them every day. Maybe you consider that healthy – i don’t. Especially, since there’s no reason for the agony barrier to exist anymore once someone already got throu it once or twice.
I do and here’s why.
In T4’s currently you have this wonderful problem of people who buy their way in with 0 knowledge of how to play their alt. They think that just because they have the money that they should be able.
A gate on that is healthy (and would be healthier if PFL was character based) because it forces you to play those characters and learn them in the situations you haven’t done before.
Returning to PFL would be the healthiest thing they could do to prevent a ton of the issues currently plaguing T4.
Returning to PFL would be the healthiest thing they could do to prevent a ton of the issues currently plaguing T4.
I agree with everything you’ve said thus far in this thread except this part. Character-bound PFL was horrible, and prevented even experienced players from playing alts and having some variety in their daily runs. I never want that to return.
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Returning to PFL would be the healthiest thing they could do to prevent a ton of the issues currently plaguing T4.
I agree with everything you’ve said thus far in this thread except this part. Character-bound PFL was horrible, and prevented even experienced players from playing alts and having some variety in their daily runs. I never want that to return.
That’s fine. I still believe it would be the healthiest thing they could do.
That however doesn’t mean the system wouldn’t undergo some changes, off the top of my head a simplistic solution that promotes people playing those alts and learning at the same time would be using Fractal Research Pages as a way to advance alt’s PFL. This gives Daily Recs more people in the Lower End and more shared knowledge, as well as allows these people who want to play alts a safer spot to play them in as they gain levels thus allowing them to become more nuanced in their specific in fight knowledge.
I’m just going to point out that character bound, non-tradeable progression exists in dungeons, it never had the effect your describing, and to this day everyone hates it.
I’m just going to point out that character bound, non-tradeable progression exists in dungeons, it never had the effect your describing, and to this day everyone hates it.
Completely different situations.
Dungeons didn’t have an inherent check to see if you’re ready for the next tier up, fractals does. However, they both are suffering from a very similar problem, people flocking to them for the rewards and expecting to be carried through content. This is less of an issue in dungeons but it helped create the same sorts of “x group is toxic” that you see currently in fractals where people think they deserve the rewards regardless of contribution.
You can currently see this at the high end of T4 96-100 where people refuse to learn the mechanics and execute them because it’s just an alt to them or whatever other reason they have for spending more time on the floor than improving as the tier structure would have you do naturally.
I’m not trying to say dungeon’s form of it is identical to fractals, I’m just pointing out that it is a widely hated system.
I’m not trying to say dungeon’s form of it is identical to fractals, I’m just pointing out that it is a widely hated system.
This thread again? If you have problems with the current agony system you are either cheap, lazy or both. This game throws agony infusions at you like bukkakke.
And hated by who? The same people that think ascended armor is hard to get? The only people i see that ‘hate’ the current agony system are those that hate working, or the same ones asking for the same thing for years, that make a similar thread every few weeks. Like its literally the same people crying about agony.
If i ever want to gear an an alt for fractals i just dig into my 10+ stacks of +5’s and make the infusions i need.
(edited by FrostDraco.8306)
It is alt unfriendly mechanic.
Even if you’re an active Fractal player (like me) if you don’t want to craft Ascended armor you have to rely on RNG drops – trinkets, rings and backpack take time to get too
In the end, even if you have been doing Fractals since day 1 (like me), if you don’t have ascended armor and accessories saved up in bank, creating an alt to play Fractals takes time.
Yes, getting infusions, armor and accessories is not difficult, but more often than not it seems like it’s a time gate mechanic
No its not a time gate mechanic, its a gold sink.
The game need gold sinks so the gold you earn are worth something.
Just look at wow for example were 100.000 gold is penuts.
Here the best gear in the game cost what 400 gold to craft outright, legendary weapon top 5000 gold?
As far as I know, you even if you have the gold, crafting all pieces cannot be done in a single day. Also, if you have no Laurels, Guild Tokens or haven’t put time into playing Living Story maps, ascended accessories are a bit time consuming to get.
As far as I know, you even if you have the gold, crafting all pieces cannot be done in a single day.
Nope, you can buy all the things needed for crafting in the TP.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
As far as I know, you even if you have the gold, crafting all pieces cannot be done in a single day.
Nope, you can buy all the things needed for crafting in the TP.
All the base materials yeah, but I don’t think you can buy things like lumps of mithrillium, which you can only craft once per day. So no, you can’t craft it all in a day.
All the base materials yeah, but I don’t think you can buy things like lumps of mithrillium, which you can only craft once per day. So no, you can’t craft it all in a day.
Nope, you are totally wrong. Everything you need to craft weapons and armor can be bought and you can simply craft it right away.
Your assumption to start from the bottom is your mistake here. You can buy Deldrimor Steel Ingots and never craft any Lump of Mithrilium.
But this ignorance is significant for a lot of GW2 players. Not that I’m annoyed by this but it gave me a different look onto many players in case of challenging content. If you don’t know anything or good enough you’ll obviously struggle over and over again until you either learned it the hard way or you try to inform yourself better and you can get away with far less attempts and effort.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
As far as I know, you even if you have the gold, crafting all pieces cannot be done in a single day.
Nope, you can buy all the things needed for crafting in the TP.
All the base materials yeah, but I don’t think you can buy things like lumps of mithrillium, which you can only craft once per day. So no, you can’t craft it all in a day.
Just pointing out as an example that you can indeed buy everything you need to craft ascended from the TP
https://www.gw2tp.com/item/45871-deldrimor-steel-boot-lining
https://www.gw2tp.com/item/45877-deldrimor-steel-boot-casing
https://www.gw2tp.com/search?name=Insignia&rarity=6&available=1
The recipe can be literally whatever but the format is the same.
This leaves you with the following things you “Cannot Purchase from the TP”
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vision_Crystal
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Vision_Crystal
So yes, it really can all be done in 1 day assuming you
A) Have the gold
B) Haven’t thrown away your ascended junk items that are handed out like candy.
This makes the entire complaint about it not being alt friendly a bit of a joke. As explained already above you get tons of gold and materials from your “main” and can quite literally buy your way into fractals with your alt.
-Looks at my 15+sets of ascended gear, most of which i crafted- It not hard folks. By the time i want to try a new build I have enough resources to craft from the bottom, or buy mats for a new armor set entirely.
This makes the entire complaint about it not being alt friendly a bit of a joke. As explained already above you get tons of gold and materials from your “main” and can quite literally buy your way into fractals with your alt.
The cost of a full ascended set bought outright is far from insignificant, though. And also doesn’t factor in the infusions.
It’s definitely do-able, but far less alt friendly than all of the game modes.
I’m not trying to say dungeon’s form of it is identical to fractals, I’m just pointing out that it is a widely hated system.
This thread again? If you have problems with the current agony system you are either cheap, lazy or both. This game throws agony infusions at you like bukkakke.
And hated by who? The same people that think ascended armor is hard to get? The only people i see that ‘hate’ the current agony system are those that hate working, or the same ones asking for the same thing for years, that make a similar thread every few weeks. Like its literally the same people crying about agony.
If i ever want to gear an an alt for fractals i just dig into my 10+ stacks of +5’s and make the infusions i need.
The cuddle police that moderate these forums will censor me if I say what I want to say to you, so I’ll just leave this:
I’m just going to point out that character bound, non-tradeable progression exists in dungeons, it never had the effect your describing, and to this day everyone hates it.
And hope that you can figure out your own mistake.
I’m not trying to say dungeon’s form of it is identical to fractals, I’m just pointing out that it is a widely hated system.
This thread again? If you have problems with the current agony system you are either cheap, lazy or both. This game throws agony infusions at you like bukkakke.
And hated by who? The same people that think ascended armor is hard to get? The only people i see that ‘hate’ the current agony system are those that hate working, or the same ones asking for the same thing for years, that make a similar thread every few weeks. Like its literally the same people crying about agony.
If i ever want to gear an an alt for fractals i just dig into my 10+ stacks of +5’s and make the infusions i need.
The cuddle police that moderate these forums will censor me if I say what I want to say to you, so I’ll just leave this:
I’m just going to point out that character bound, non-tradeable progression exists in dungeons, it never had the effect your describing, and to this day everyone hates it.
And hope that you can figure out your own mistake.
And I’ll repeat the same thing. Who is everyone? Those of us who know the dungeon paths and don’t suck, are not bothered by this one bit. If you did daily dungeon tours for the 8 token bonus, you would not have this issue at all.
All of AC, All of CM, All of SOE and so on. Multiple times a week.
I mostly run dungeons on my warrior, theif and ele anyway. Because they are the best classes for dungeon running. It’s simple really.
Do you even run dungeons? Because this is mostly a non issue for the seasoned dungeon runner. And it’s perfectly understandable why it exist. But I actually seek to understand the systems of the game, not simply complain that something that doesn’t give instant gratification is inconvenient.
(edited by FrostDraco.8306)
This makes the entire complaint about it not being alt friendly a bit of a joke. As explained already above you get tons of gold and materials from your “main” and can quite literally buy your way into fractals with your alt.
The cost of a full ascended set bought outright is far from insignificant, though. And also doesn’t factor in the infusions.
It’s definitely do-able, but far less alt friendly than all of the game modes.
It is insignificant when you stop cherry picking the fact that it’s for an alt, meaning you are already capable of running fractals at T4. I’ve done the math above for you. You can quite literally buy ~ 2 pieces a week straight off the TP just from the liquid gold rewards.
On average you should be getting 1 piece a week just from the daily rewards.
That’s half a set in 1 week, seems trivial.
And I’ll repeat the same thing. Who is everyone? Those of us who know the dungeon paths and don’t suck, are not bothered by this one bit. If you did daily dungeon tours for the 8 token bonus, you would not have this issue at all.
All of AC, All of CM, All of SOE and so on. Multiple times a week.
I mostly run dungeons on my warrior, theif and ele anyway. Because they are the best classes for dungeon running. It’s simple really.
Do you even run dungeons? Because this is mostly a non issue for the seasoned dungeon runner. And it’s perfectly understandable why it exist. But I actually seek to understand the systems of the game, not simply complain that something that doesn’t give instant gratification is inconvenient.
I think your heavily misinterpreting what I am saying.
I am pointing out, that you can’t open dungeons in explorable mode, unless you have done story mode on that specific character. You could have multiple warriors (like I do), and have gotten the dungeoneer title with one of them, and the game won’t let you open explorable mode with any of the others. Let alone other classes. Worse yet, there is no easy indicator where you can see which characters have done which story modes.
Even if you believe there is merit to playing through story mode on your alt rather than letting explorable mode be unlocked account wide, are you really going to argue it makes more sense for it to be character specific and not class specific?
Do you really think the game is better because my third warrior needs to do ac story mode before doing p123, even though my other 2 warriors have already done it?
I brought this up because Tex believes fractal level should be character specific. Is that your stance too? Not even class specific, but character specific?
I brought this up because Tex believes fractal level should be character specific. Is that your stance too? Not even class specific, but character specific?
I mean before we jump shark here, if the game had a way to detect class vs character i’d support that over character. That being said it still would make the entire topic irrelevant as you could just toss your ascended stuff on your alt of the same character type since literally all of it can be shared.
Since that however isn’t the case, and there’s a real ease of getting ascended gear / money in the game i don’t think it would be unhealthy for the fractals to return to the old system, with some adjustments as already proposed above.
It should be account wide, period.
But that would mean they would lose their precious goldsinks. And everybody knows that the true driver of design in this game is the economy that creates goldsinks to incentivize players to buy gems to convert to gold to make the process go faster.
I brought this up because Tex believes fractal level should be character specific. Is that your stance too? Not even class specific, but character specific?
I mean before we jump shark here, if the game had a way to detect class vs character i’d support that over character. That being said it still would make the entire topic irrelevant as you could just toss your ascended stuff on your alt of the same character type since literally all of it can be shared.
Since that however isn’t the case, and there’s a real ease of getting ascended gear / money in the game i don’t think it would be unhealthy for the fractals to return to the old system, with some adjustments as already proposed above.
What? Its a simple 1 by 9 array (9 for classes). If anet can’t do that, they can’t do anything.
Lets talk about the core of your belief. You think that in order to learn to play a class effectively in t4, they should have to play that class through t1,2, and 3 correct?
And you believe that playing one class doesn’t allow you to learn to play another class. My question is, why would that mentality stop at class lines? Why not builds?
If you play a condi mesmer from t1-t4, why should you be allowed to swap to a chrono/buff build and still play t4? After all, they are very different builds. Or what about magi druid vs condi ranger? Worlds of difference, just as much difference as warrior vs ele. What about elite specs? Why should fractal level being character/class specific, rather than build specific?
I brought this up because Tex believes fractal level should be character specific. Is that your stance too? Not even class specific, but character specific?
I mean before we jump shark here, if the game had a way to detect class vs character i’d support that over character. That being said it still would make the entire topic irrelevant as you could just toss your ascended stuff on your alt of the same character type since literally all of it can be shared.
Since that however isn’t the case, and there’s a real ease of getting ascended gear / money in the game i don’t think it would be unhealthy for the fractals to return to the old system, with some adjustments as already proposed above.
What? Its a simple 1 by 9 array (9 for classes). If anet can’t do that, they can’t do anything.
Lets talk about the core of your belief. You think that in order to learn to play a class effectively in t4, they should have to play that class through t1,2, and 3 correct?
And you believe that playing one class doesn’t allow you to learn to play another class. My question is, why would that mentality stop at class lines? Why not builds?
If you play a condi mesmer from t1-t4, why should you be allowed to swap to a chrono/buff build and still play t4? After all, they are very different builds. Or what about magi druid vs condi ranger? Worlds of difference, just as much difference as warrior vs ele. What about elite specs? Why should fractal level being character/class specific, rather than build specific?
Because interplay between class specific mechanics isn’t that vastly different. At most your changing you positioning and rotations.
You’re not trying to pick learn upwards of 50 new skills and traits, while learning cast times, animations and ranges all the while trying to balance all of that on the pre existing difficulty of fractals which are tiered in such a way that presupposes that you already have all of that knowledge.
That’s why i dont care if they can make a class based check, i’d support it. But for something someone has <20hrs on for example i personally don’t think that needs to be seen in t4 and is something that person should take to t1-t2 and other learning spaces so as to not be a hindrance to the rest of the fractal community at large.
That’s why i dont care if they can make a class based check, i’d support it. But for something someone has <20hrs on for example i personally don’t think that needs to be seen in t4 and is something that person should take to t1-t2 and other learning spaces so as to not be a hindrance to the rest of the fractal community at large.
Well, the current system doesn’t support that at all. Quite the opposite, it supports farming t4’s on your already equipped character until you have a full set for your alt. Trying to play through the fractal tiers on that alt actually makes it slower (and gives worse rewards).
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Because interplay between class specific mechanics isn’t that vastly different. At most your changing you positioning and rotations.
I mean, you could literally say that is the only difference between every class. If changing rotation isn’t too big of a change to warrant being locked out of t4s, then why would class matter? The only difference between dps ele and dps guard is the, ‘rotation’.
Also, I think a hammer guard and a staff thief play more similarly than a condi ranger and a magi druid.
edit: just to be clear, I understand thief can have more than auto-attack as a rotation. But I think for average t4 pugs, this is a fair comparison.
You’re not trying to pick learn upwards of 50 new skills and traits, while learning cast times, animations and ranges all the while trying to balance all of that on the pre existing difficulty of fractals which are tiered in such a way that presupposes that you already have all of that knowledge.
Weaver is introducing 48 new weapon skills above water, 58 if you include the 10 on trident. Plus 5 utility skills. Should we make fractal level elite spec based?
Look, its your belief, you can ignore these inconsistencies if you want. I’m just pointing out that the lines you want to draw, viewing progression as character based rather than account based, are pretty blurry at best.
Because interplay between class specific mechanics isn’t that vastly different. At most your changing you positioning and rotations.
I mean, you could literally say that is the only difference between every class. If changing rotation isn’t too big of a change to warrant being locked out of t4s, then why would class matter? The only difference between dps ele and dps guard is the, ‘rotation’.
Also, I think a hammer guard and a staff thief play more similarly than a condi ranger and a magi druid.
edit: just to be clear, I understand thief can have more than auto-attack as a rotation. But I think for average t4 pugs, this is a fair comparison.You’re not trying to pick learn upwards of 50 new skills and traits, while learning cast times, animations and ranges all the while trying to balance all of that on the pre existing difficulty of fractals which are tiered in such a way that presupposes that you already have all of that knowledge.
Weaver is introducing 48 new weapon skills above water, 58 if you include the 10 on trident. Plus 5 utility skills. Should we make fractal level elite spec based?
Look, its your belief, you can ignore these inconsistencies if you want. I’m just pointing out that the lines you want to draw, viewing progression as character based rather than account based, are pretty blurry at best.
I understand, but i respectfully disagree with the notion that weaver is a brand new class. It is still at the end of the day an Elementalist. So no i wouldn’t go for an eSpec based lockout as that’s just your way of trying to muddle the issue in ways that honestly have gone pretty far into derailing the original intent of the thread.
If you think discussing PFL is derailing the thread, you should complain to the person who brought it up.
If you think discussing PFL is derailing the thread, you should complain to the person who brought it up.
No what i think is derailing is a person nitpicking every minutiae just because they do not agree. I get it, you don’t agree your line of thinking wont have any impact on what another person views so arguing the minutiae isn’t going to change anything.
Maybe make it so that it somehow becomes account bound.