Guild Wars 2

Now that Defiant is apparently properly working by resisting fear, allow me, as a necromancer do an obligatory golf clap for nerfing one of the aspects that made dungeons very enjoyable as a necromancer. Only a week ago I was saying how the best dungeon team would probably be 1 mesmer, 2 guardians and 2 necromancers, with fear being one of the major factors. But ok, this isn’t a QQ topic about a nerf. I am less concerned about the efficiency of the necromancer and more concerned about the random oddity that is Defiant.

What is Defiant?
Defiant is a stacked boon exclusive to enemy Champion and Legendary bosses that have the Unshakable boon. When a mob without Defiant is hit with a crowd control (CC) effect; knockdown, blowout, fear, pull, daze, stun, the mob will be interrupted and gain 3-X stacks of defiant. where X is the amount of players in the area. Defiant will cause the mob to be immune to all forms of CC. Every attack that has a CC effect will remove 1 stack of defiant, .’. the boss cannot be interrupted again until all stacks of defiant are removed.

Problem:
I understand why Defiant is there. You don’t want bosses getting stun-locked into oblivion, but you do want people to be able to CC the boss at the correct times. However, Defiant is simply not very intuitive. The problem is that the very things that remove stacks of Defiant; CC attacks, are the things that create it.

As an inexperienced PUG group, people likely won’t ever be able to CC correctly. All it takes is for one member of the group to use a skill that involves CC as part of their damage rotation for the rest of the team to be locked out of CC until defiant is removed. Which brings me to my next problem.

Suppose you are in a PUG group of moderate experience, and no one will randomly use CC when it is unnecessary. When Defiant does get triggered though, the coordination required to remove exactly 5 stacks of Defiant becomes tricky. Suppose 1 player does not have CC, you’re left with 1 stack of Defiant with 4 players all gung-ho about removing it. Oops, you just CC’ed twice, now the boss got interrupted and you’re back with 5 stacks of Defiant.

So is the purpose of Defiant supposed to punish PUG groups? I don’t think so. To be honest I think even seasoned will have problems with this, simply because of the problem I listed above, to the point where:

CC vs bosses is completely unnecessary and almost all bosses (non fractal ones) can be completed without it.

You know that’s true. On the flipside, dodge is integrated into boss fights very well, and any player adept at dodging will find boss fights very easy. However, ‘must-CC-attacks’ can be a very fun mechanic in boss fights, and in the framework of dungeon bosses in GW2, this concept is completely lacking.

Solution
I think Defiant should be reworked. Just slightly. Originally I thought boon removal should affect Defiant by removing 1 stack per removal, but not all classes can remove boons. Boon removal in PvE IMO is borderline useless since bosses seem to be able to buff themselves perpetually, and I think its about time boon removal is integrated into the mechanics better.

Defiant should be a duration buff: it will be triggered the same way it is now; when the boss is CC’ed the boss gains 30 seconds of Defiant, making it impervious to all other CC. While this buff is activated, any CC will cause Defiant to recharge up to a maximum duration of 30 seconds.

So what happens?
To an inexperienced PUG team, learning to overcome defiant is much easier; if you see Defiant don’t CC. Suppose the boss has no defiant and is ramping up to do a massive attack, and everyone CC’s the boss; the extra hits of CC will only maintain Defiant at its maximum duration; the likelihood of not being able to CC the boss later is reduced.

To an experienced team, they can be fully rewarded for having good reflex and can integrate CC into their play more effectively rather than having to coordinate ‘defiant stack removal duty’

Now, most importantly, to the Devs, will this not give you more flexibility on what mechanics you can adopt in a boss fight? If defiant became a more intuitive concept you can better design bosses that have epic attacks that a team MUST CC. This is a bit like those fractal bosses that can heal, and can be interrupted even with Defiant. These heals feel like you are slapping your own mechanics in the face. You acknowledge that Defiant will be a problem so you give everyone a free pass during the heal. Could be better IMO.

I am kind of worried that the Defiant mechanic will make a “CC now!” mechanic too difficult to implement, but, then again, they could just make any “CC now!” mechanics temporarily disable Defiant.

Lopez.7369:

I am kind of worried that the Defiant mechanic will make a “CC now!” mechanic too difficult to implement, but, then again, they could just make any “CC now!” mechanics temporarily disable Defiant.

They do have CC NOW mechanics. Fractal boss Ice Elemental, Dredge Powersuit, and that Dragon Shaman Svanir guy (not sure about this last one) have heals that need to be interrupted. These heals also disable Defiant.

Which is why I said, it feels like the devs slapped their own mechanics in the face. They know that defiant is unreasonable for people to get around in an intuitive way, so they need to disable it for CC NOW mechanics.

Which shouldn’t happen. These effects should go hand in hand. People should be required to learn what defiant does, and how it affects them during CC NOW situations.

kKagari, nice write up. You might want to include a list of things that cause defiant to stack on a boss besides just saying someone used an CC on the bboss, some players really might not even really understand what causes it to be applied. I loved my necros fear because of how they worked along with daze to interrupt boss animations

edit: below is the wiki page with control effects listed. It is outdated now since fear no longer bypass’s defiant.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crowd_control

gamefreak.5673:

kKagari, nice write up. You might want to include a list of things that cause defiant to stack on a boss besides just saying someone used an CC on the bboss, some players really might not even really understand what causes it to be applied. I loved my necros fear because of how they worked along with daze to interrupt boss animations

edit: below is the wiki page with control effects listed. It is outdated now since fear no longer bypass’s defiant.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crowd_control

You’re right! Can’t believe I forgot that lol, essay writing fail. Added it now.

kKagari.6804:

They do have CC NOW mechanics. Fractal boss Ice Elemental, Dredge Powersuit, and that Dragon Shaman Svanir guy (not sure about this last one) have heals that need to be interrupted. These heals also disable Defiant.

Interesting. As a Necromancer, I never had to pay attention to Defiant until this patch, so I wasn’t aware it worked like that.

I don’t really see the problem with them. I think the mechanic is fine.

Lopez.7369:

kKagari.6804:

They do have CC NOW mechanics. Fractal boss Ice Elemental, Dredge Powersuit, and that Dragon Shaman Svanir guy (not sure about this last one) have heals that need to be interrupted. These heals also disable Defiant.

Interesting. As a Necromancer, I never had to pay attention to Defiant until this patch, so I wasn’t aware it worked like that.

I don’t really see the problem with them. I think the mechanic is fine.

Well, that’s the issue. The whole mechanic is negligible =(

Many of my guildmates have no idea what Defiant is or does, despite many of those same people having been 80 and been dungeon running for quite a while. It is one of those weirder mechanics that I’ve always felt could use better implementation. There just really isn’t much of a point to coordinating groups to burn through them and interrupt key moves for the most part with most current bosses.

I must admit that even as a very experienced dungeon runner I’ve paid very little attention to Defiant. I know it exists and it limits the CC vs. bosses but I never played much attention to the details of it.

I agree with the OP though. It’s not an intuitive mechanic and I think it hampers the games potential. I think CC should play a bigger role in PvE but that’s impossible when you have such a clunky mechanic like Defiant.

They could reduce the base stack number of defiance from 5 to 3 maybe.

Sethorus.9231:

They could reduce the base stack number of defiance from 5 to 3 maybe.

5 was ‘intended’ to be the intuitive feature of defiance since it corresponded to the number of players doing a dungeon. I think the devs intended for every player to use their CC skills once each so that everyone removes one stack of defiant, and we’re back down to zero stacks.

Its a novel concept at best, because the moment you are even 1 CC short, leaving the boss with 1 or 2 stacks of defiant, there will be confusion within the team as to who still needs to CC the boss. Its just near impossible without voice communication.

Here are some problems;
What if a player doesn’t have CC?
Some CC removes more than 1 stack; such as flesh golem charge.
A thief using headshot twice accidentally will instantly screw up any defiant removal setup.
If a player blows their only CC on removing defiant, they won’t have the time to CC the boss even if it doesn’t have defiant.

Lastly, on the devs side; the biggest problem is that CC isn’t crucial enough in boss fights. And it really should be a crucial element!

I can see where the OP is coming from. After my first two dungeon runs and trying to read defiant’s tooltip mid battle I just gave up; I never really needed to use stuns on bosses and even when I did it felt like it was just a random chance of happening.

This just in from OP: Pubs are bad at co-ordination. More at 11.

Writetyper.1985:

This just in from OP: Pubs are bad at co-ordination. More at 11.

Whilst this is certainly the case its not even the crux of the problem. They have no NEED to be well coordinated for the purposes of CC alone, simply because Defiant doesn’t integrate well in the success of boss fights. That’s why pubs are bad at coordination, they have no cause for improving it.

So what if bosses had attacks that must be CC’ed? Some pubs will fail, others will start to coordinate to get rid of defiant; we’d run into the issue somewhere down the line that Defiant is clunky and not intuitive.

kKagari.6804:

Writetyper.1985:

This just in from OP: Pubs are bad at co-ordination. More at 11.

Whilst this is certainly the case its not even the crux of the problem. They have no NEED to be well coordinated for the purposes of CC alone, simply because Defiant doesn’t integrate well in the success of boss fights. That’s why pubs are bad at coordination, they have no cause for improving it.

So what if bosses had attacks that must be CC’ed? Some pubs will fail, others will start to coordinate to get rid of defiant; we’d run into the issue somewhere down the line that Defiant is clunky and not intuitive.

I believe there are a lot of bosses/objects that were designed with a need to be CC’d – anet did say their trinity was “DPS/Support with a little Control” instead of the standard – but pubs have just found workarounds to it which have become the norm and so nobody wants to experiment with defiant removal.

Take alpha or kholer for example: Big, orchestrated attack with potential to screw everyone over quite briskly. Perfect for being interrupted, but people have gotten mass dodging/aegis use/quickly saving their allies down to an artform that there is no real point complicating things via messing around with CC – it’s just everyone DPS and then save yourselves.

I did like that in the tixx dungeon toxx would heal after she did the spin, so we had to have people either interrupt that or use poison to negate it’s effect or just have 5 warriors

Writetyper.1985:

kKagari.6804:

Writetyper.1985:

This just in from OP: Pubs are bad at co-ordination. More at 11.

Whilst this is certainly the case its not even the crux of the problem. They have no NEED to be well coordinated for the purposes of CC alone, simply because Defiant doesn’t integrate well in the success of boss fights. That’s why pubs are bad at coordination, they have no cause for improving it.

So what if bosses had attacks that must be CC’ed? Some pubs will fail, others will start to coordinate to get rid of defiant; we’d run into the issue somewhere down the line that Defiant is clunky and not intuitive.

I believe there are a lot of bosses/objects that were designed with a need to be CC’d – anet did say their trinity was “DPS/Support with a little Control” instead of the standard – but pubs have just found workarounds to it which have become the norm and so nobody wants to experiment with defiant removal.

Take alpha or kholer for example: Big, orchestrated attack with potential to screw everyone over quite briskly. Perfect for being interrupted, but people have gotten mass dodging/aegis use/quickly saving their allies down to an artform that there is no real point complicating things via messing around with CC – it’s just everyone DPS and then save yourselves.

I did like that in the tixx dungeon toxx would heal after she did the spin, so we had to have people either interrupt that or use poison to negate it’s effect or just have 5 warriors

Yeah, unfortunately I think that heal mechanic is the same as Ice Elemental and Powersuit from the dredge fractal; it negates defiant so anyone interrupting can stop the boss from healing.

Writetyper.1985:

kKagari.6804:

Writetyper.1985:

This just in from OP: Pubs are bad at co-ordination. More at 11.

Whilst this is certainly the case its not even the crux of the problem. They have no NEED to be well coordinated for the purposes of CC alone, simply because Defiant doesn’t integrate well in the success of boss fights. That’s why pubs are bad at coordination, they have no cause for improving it.

So what if bosses had attacks that must be CC’ed? Some pubs will fail, others will start to coordinate to get rid of defiant; we’d run into the issue somewhere down the line that Defiant is clunky and not intuitive.

I believe there are a lot of bosses/objects that were designed with a need to be CC’d – anet did say their trinity was “DPS/Support with a little Control” instead of the standard – but pubs have just found workarounds to it which have become the norm and so nobody wants to experiment with defiant removal.

Take alpha or kholer for example: Big, orchestrated attack with potential to screw everyone over quite briskly. Perfect for being interrupted, but people have gotten mass dodging/aegis use/quickly saving their allies down to an artform that there is no real point complicating things via messing around with CC – it’s just everyone DPS and then save yourselves.

I did like that in the tixx dungeon toxx would heal after she did the spin, so we had to have people either interrupt that or use poison to negate it’s effect or just have 5 warriors

I tried interrupting Kholer but it seemed his pull could not be interrupted.
And for Alpha, he just spams too many of his attacks to be effectively CC’d.

It’s pretty easy to comprehend, really.
KnockBACK cc skills (and now fear, too, since it finally doesn’t work through defiant yet is pretty close to the generally least useful knockbacks) are used to tear down defiant stacks. When the boss is clean and can eat next cc, don’t spam the hell out of your skills – wait for a big hit to interrupt or for your mesmer to drop time warp before you knockDOWN the boss.
With the amount of cc most professions can throw, fighting bosses without defiant (or working in any other way) would end up in 2 people cc-locking the boss and 3 others safely dpsing them, leading them to the creation of PvE duo – the glass dpser & the controller.

Kholer can be interrupted just fine. There is a bug, though – you see ‘interrupt’ on your screen even when you drop a cc skill onto a defiant stack.

About coordinating cc in pugs – just ctrl+click the defiant-rending skill before using it, then drop it to avoid hitting with two knockbacks on the last defiant stack.

drkn.3429:

It’s pretty easy to comprehend, really.
KnockBACK cc skills (and now fear, too, since it finally doesn’t work through defiant yet is pretty close to the generally least useful knockbacks) are used to tear down defiant stacks. When the boss is clean and can eat next cc, don’t spam the hell out of your skills – wait for a big hit to interrupt or for your mesmer to drop time warp before you knockDOWN the boss.
With the amount of cc most professions can throw, fighting bosses without defiant (or working in any other way) would end up in 2 people cc-locking the boss and 3 others safely dpsing them, leading them to the creation of PvE duo – the glass dpser & the controller.

Kholer can be interrupted just fine. There is a bug, though – you see ‘interrupt’ on your screen even when you drop a cc skill onto a defiant stack.

About coordinating cc in pugs – just ctrl+click the defiant-rending skill before using it, then drop it to avoid hitting with two knockbacks on the last defiant stack.

It’s not possible with pugs. They don’t pay attention. I tried numerous times, even explained before the fight.

Well, pugging is the social side of rng, isn’t it – you may find people who not only understand the basics, but also can cooperate in more advanced stuff, or you get halfwits who get downed every seven seconds.
So it’s hard to generalise when talking about pugging – if you want to be on the safe side, just run stuff with guildies; even if they’re bad at the beginning, it’s the same people you play with over and over and they have a real chance to improve.

I don’t see how the proposed changes will help : If Defiant is a duration ability, wouldn’t that make it worse? If someone CC’s at the wrong time, you’re now unable to CC for 30s as opposed to just needing a few more hits.
It also makes more than one source of CC utterly useless. Atm, a Hammer warrior has 3 CC skills on his own. If those extra sources can’t be used to wear down CC-resistance, there’s very little point to them. On top of that, it makes more than 1 person with CC worthless too.

With experience both in co-ordinated groups and pugs, I think the current system is OK. Sure, you can get someone CCing the boss at a non-optimal point (or using low-duration CC), but it’s no worse than any other organization mechanics.

If you are in bad team you can’t CC properly.
If you are in good team then why even bother? Highly unnecessary for the amount of coordination needed.

What about if boss had Anger-stacks instead? Every CC would add Anger based on what was interrupted (0-1 for nothing, 2-5 for minor, 5-10 for major) and some extra for long CCs (like 3 secs CC would give 5 stacks extra). One stack would expire every ~3 seconds and after reaching ~10 stacks it would change to equivalent amount of Defiant-stacks. Defiant-stacks would grant CC-immunity, one stack expire every ~3 seconds and CC skills would remove Defiant similarly as they generated Anger.
This would still prevent CC-lock while being more lenient to random CC and making small amount of CC useful if used smartly. Also it would balance short CC vs long CC and allow heavy CC through burning stacks. However it’s more complex that current system.

kKagari.6804:

Lastly, on the devs side; the biggest problem is that CC isn’t crucial enough in boss fights. And it really should be a crucial element!

I remember a game not long ago (a very good game by some great developers) on which CC played a key role in boss fights. In that particular game bosses had very damaging abilities, and very powerful healing abilities as well, that the players needed to interrupt in order to succeed at killing it. In order to make interrupting harder and avoid the “stun-lock” problem the developers of that amazing game, added CC resistance to the bosses, so bosses couldn’t be interrupted with every CC skill out there but instead have a chance to resist it. Also, some boss-defining abilities should be immune to CC because without them the boss loses its “theme”.
I think CC resistance is all that is needed… the question is how high? Maybe a 50% CC resistance is enough?

For anyone wondering, that amazing game is called Guild Wars 1, a game that handled interrupts perfectly. Try killing Glint without interrupting Crystal Hibernation for example…. impossible (unless you use very specific builds)

I think defiant stacks are a very well-thought-out and apropriate mechanic. It allows everyone to meaningfully contribute to CC, by simply CCing when the boss needs to be CCed. Party of 5, boss with x/5 defiant stacks, starts big move: everyone uses a CC, boss gets CCed and is back at x/5 defiant stacks. Basically no coordination required. Very pug-friendly. No annoying “’the RNG hates me, all my CC gets resisted”. And if you are in a good team, then you can improve by minimizing x, and/or trying to hit with particularly powerful CCs.

The only thing that needs changing are bosses requiring more CC, because right now it’s a lot easier to dodge attacks than to bother with CC. Even my hammer warrior tends, on most bosses, to think “screw defiant” and just Earthshake on CD for the blast finisher.

It might be pug friendly in about 2 years when pugs will get on this level.

Guild wars is not pug friendly. It says so on the box

Spamming your CC abilities to clear defiant is not skillful or interesting gameplay. It would fell better if Defiant was a duration instead of stacks.

Maximillian Greil.1965:

Guild wars is not pug friendly. It says so on the box

It is PUG friendly. Defiant is not PUG friendly, nor does it really matter at this point.

The current mindset from having such stupidly high defiant stacks is this: why use CC at all when the defiant counter is so high, aside from having it come secondary from running your full damage rotation of skills? Interrupting the boss comes as a perk/bonus/afterthought from dps skills, which is NOT something this defiant system should be doing.

If they fixed it so you can actually interrupt crucial animations/spells, then having defiant on wouldn’t be so bad. Atm, trying to interrupt a boss with defiant on is a complete waste of time (ie: ‘interrupted!’ message pops up, but they still finish the animation), especially with the ridiculous (and stupid) amounts of defiant stacks they currently have.

Defiant should just be changed to a static duration of something like 5-30secs (or even higher, but make it so each cc shaves off a few seconds) , or have stacks wear off every few 2-5 seconds. Only then will we actually have some more interactive boss fights instead of the current “spam all your CCs or none at all” style of play.

I had a revelation and I don’t know if anyone else has brought this up.

All you have to do is have everyone in the party save an interrupt for the big attack you want to interrupt. Then all 5 players attempt to interrupt it. It doesn’t matter how many stacks are on the boss at that time. One of the interrupts will go through.

Tada! Easy counter to defiant. That’s also as intuitive as it comes. I can’t believe I didn’t think of that instantly when I first learned of the mechanic, seriously.

The only problem is when a player does not listen, or consistently lacks the presence of mind to save their interrupt. However, the fact is that each person on the team only needs one interrupt for your team to be able to interrupt bosses. Any character can bring 2 or more so you can make up for “that guy” anyway.

And no matter what the mechanics are, in any team game, there’s always gonna be “that guy” in pugs. So it shouldn’t be changed just because it’s not favorable for bad groups. Bad groups are bad either way.

Khristophoros.7194:

I had a revelation and I don’t know if anyone else has brought this up.

All you have to do is have everyone in the party save an interrupt for the big attack you want to interrupt. Then all 5 players attempt to interrupt it. It doesn’t matter how many stacks are on the boss at that time. One of the interrupts will go through.

Tada! Easy counter to defiant. That’s also as intuitive as it comes. I can’t believe I didn’t think of that instantly when I first learned of the mechanic, seriously.

The only problem is when a player does not listen, or consistently lacks the presence of mind to save their interrupt. However, the fact is that each person on the team only needs one interrupt for your team to be able to interrupt bosses. Any character can bring 2 or more so you can make up for “that guy” anyway.

And no matter what the mechanics are, in any team game, there’s always gonna be “that guy” in pugs. So it shouldn’t be changed just because it’s not favorable for bad groups. Bad groups are bad either way.

If there are 5 defiant stacks on the boss, you need 6 interrupts not 5.

Even after reading your message I have no idea what’s going on.

I still don’t know what defiant does, and I’ll still choose to ignore it as if it didnt exist in the game.

Defiant is simple : bosses are immune from 1 CC skill in 6. 1 CC skill affects them, the next 5 won’t affect them, the next will, the next 5 will not etc…

This “6” number may vary though.

Khristophoros.7194:

I had a revelation and I don’t know if anyone else has brought this up.

All you have to do is have everyone in the party save an interrupt for the big attack you want to interrupt. Then all 5 players attempt to interrupt it. It doesn’t matter how many stacks are on the boss at that time. One of the interrupts will go through.

Tada! Easy counter to defiant. That’s also as intuitive as it comes. I can’t believe I didn’t think of that instantly when I first learned of the mechanic, seriously.

The only problem is when a player does not listen, or consistently lacks the presence of mind to save their interrupt. However, the fact is that each person on the team only needs one interrupt for your team to be able to interrupt bosses. Any character can bring 2 or more so you can make up for “that guy” anyway.

And no matter what the mechanics are, in any team game, there’s always gonna be “that guy” in pugs. So it shouldn’t be changed just because it’s not favorable for bad groups. Bad groups are bad either way.

Its not something bad groups can’t get around, its no even necessary to get around, thats why defiant is bad. People just ignore it anyways.

Yes, the problem with Defiant is exactly that : any boss with defiant is treated more or less as a CC immune boss and it works. And worse, not only it works but removing the stacks to place a CC at the right time isn’t worth it either because it never pays back more than the effort it took to do it.

The only boss where watching Defiant stacks is “good” (not necessary mind you, but a good idea) is the final boss of the Dredge Fractals.

Everything else you can just plow through regardless.

Ninth Requiem.3250:

I don’t see how the proposed changes will help : If Defiant is a duration ability, wouldn’t that make it worse? If someone CC’s at the wrong time, you’re now unable to CC for 30s as opposed to just needing a few more hits.
It also makes more than one source of CC utterly useless. Atm, a Hammer warrior has 3 CC skills on his own. If those extra sources can’t be used to wear down CC-resistance, there’s very little point to them. On top of that, it makes more than 1 person with CC worthless too.

With experience both in co-ordinated groups and pugs, I think the current system is OK. Sure, you can get someone CCing the boss at a non-optimal point (or using low-duration CC), but it’s no worse than any other organization mechanics.

I’m not sure I understand either: wouldn’t that also make it so that a boss wouldn’t be allowed to use there “INTERRUPT THIS” skill more frequently than the period of defiant, on pains of being impossible to beat?

I kind of disagree that mildly organized PUGs (aka one that talks to each other out of combat occasionally) can’t handle defiant. Just assign certain stacks to certain members. Make it a specific player’s job to clear the last stack of defiant, or even the last two, with everyone else instructed to avoid CCing until the boss’ big attack-to-interrupt comes up. At which point anyone with big CC (Long stun, knockdown, etc) can go for it.

The major blunder you find in dungeons with PUGs, I think, is multiple people trying to clear the last stack of Defiant to set up the boss for their group’s big Knockdown attack. Instead, you get one person clearing the stack, then the next person stunning at the incorrect time and resetting the stack. Assigning the last stack to a specific player avoids this a significant amount of the time.

1. defiant is as intuitive as it gets. unless you’re .. kinda slow, you should be able to read the tool tip, pay attention during the boss fight, and understand what’s actually going on.

2. the ice elemental/dredge fractal bosses do not have this weird form of defiant you described. it is not a player who stuns them during their heal. they just automatically stun themselves (which obviously circumvents defiant and thus doesn’t remove a stack) when they try to heal while overheated…

unless this changes on higher levels (30+). it works the way i described up to level 21, at least.

3. making it a boon when only 2 professions have meaningful boon removal options? i wouldn’t like that. i do think boon removal should be a little more important in PvE (there’s only a few occasions where it’s really useful), but i don’t agree with this idea.

Adding fear to defiant was the worst thing ever.

Why don’t they just add damage to defiant as well? On the 5th hit you actually do damage! That would be neat game design!!!