Guild Wars 2

maddoctor.2738:

Tornupto.2304:

Are you sure that your client even knows what equipment others have?

Just imagine if your client knew what everyone around had equipped when fighting world bosses. It would take a super computer to keep all those calculations

WvW fight in Stonemist with full zergs of all 3 servers. Maybe thats where the skilllags are comming from?
Just kidding, as i said:
It would be useless overhead. Damage is only computed on the gameserver, otherwise it would cause more traffic and would have to be computed more than one time (once per client instead of one single time on the server).

In spectator mode you get the information from the gameserver because your client needs it in that case. Its not generally given to you.

Tornupto.2304:

maddoctor.2738:

Tornupto.2304:

Are you sure that your client even knows what equipment others have?

Just imagine if your client knew what everyone around had equipped when fighting world bosses. It would take a super computer to keep all those calculations

WvW fight in Stonemist with full zergs of all 3 servers. Maybe thats where the skilllags are comming from?
Just kidding, as i said:
It would be useless overhead. Damage is only computed on the gameserver, otherwise it would cause more traffic and would have to be computed more than one time (once per client instead of one single time on the server).

In spectator mode you get the information from the gameserver because your client needs it in that case. Its not generally given to you.

i can tell you, that the client knows all this stuff. not sure about dmg numbers, but traits and equipment of others in your near and their stats are definitly available for your client.

you also can do a quick search on google / youtube to find videos of certain dps meters / 3rd party programms which let you inspect the gear of other players arround you.

thats more or less the problem of 3rd party tools as dps meters. we already have them, but some of them may cross a line which is not okay (like showing you where people are and you could use that in wvw to “see” the enemy).

would be nicer if anet would give us a combat log or approve of one 3rd party dps meter which does only that, recording dps and buff uptime, nothing more and nothing less.

Ok if the client knows that (for whatever reason) it might be possible and hopefully looked at by Anet. Those programs are clearly crossing some lines in that case. I still hope the damage of each player isn’t computed clientwise… If that would be causing those Stonemist-lags…. I don’t want to even imagine the kittenstorm because that would be ‘easy’ to avoid imo. :S

Crinn.7864:

combat logging to file should be a thing

This would help so much.

Just had an idea, why not expose the chat in the API? So anyone can write some app that reads the combat log data from the API then parse them for info. The advantage of this, is that it will be completely legal and at the same time accurate, compared to other versions of meters which rely on image capturing. Also, no work by Anet to maintain this, it will be the same as supporting/maintaining the API itself.
In addition, the API has a 5-minute delay so it will be literally impossible to get real-time data, for example to instantly kick people if their DPS is lower than what some people want and the data from such an app will be used to improve a team or yourself and not to exclude others.

maddoctor.2738:

Just had an idea, why not expose the chat in the API? So anyone can write some app that reads the combat log data from the API then parse them for info. The advantage of this, is that it will be completely legal and at the same time accurate, compared to other versions of meters which rely on image capturing. Also, no work by Anet to maintain this, it will be the same as supporting/maintaining the API itself.
In addition, the API has a 5-minute delay so it will be literally impossible to get real-time data, for example to instantly kick people if their DPS is lower than what some people want and the data from such an app will be used to improve a team or yourself and not to exclude others.

its not as easy as you think. what we players rather need is a clientside api so we can get our combat log and read it into a file.

the other way arround would write thousands of line every kittening single trashmob you hit, thousands of players doing their stuff on every server, be it wvw, pve and so on.

while it probably is possible, i would probably need more space then anets logging for everything else (except the api is only for raids which is probably also doable).

the best way in the end would just be a dmg log / boon log for the specific bossfight.

I just want a feature like the PvP end of game stats page. It tells you your damage, condi damage, healing, and other stuff. That gives useful feedback and shouldn’t be hard to implement.

Nokaru.7831:

Actually, the more people I see using this “Unofficial DPS Meter”, the more exclusionary I’ve seen pick-up-groups become. There’s a memory-editing version floating around out there which can inspect you and also monitor the damage of everyone in the group. If you’ve noticed it harder to join a group, this is why.

So you can say, “DPS Meters are not bad!” and “They help people!” but in reality I’ve observed the opposite effect.

I’d like to know the basis for your observation and conclusion.

1. Do people tell you they are using this software?
2. If not, how do you know that people are using it more?
3. If so, how many players is this?
4. Also if so, are you seeing those specific players being exclusionary and citing the data the software provides as the reason?

1. Are you instead (or also) generalizing (i.e., you’ve observed/been told that more people are using the software, and are also seeing more exclusionary behavior from PuG’s)?
2. If so, how do you know that the meter is the cause?
3. Have you considered that an increase in exclusion could as readily represent impatience due to the number of reps players have been through as the content ages?
4. Have you considered whether there might be yet another reason for the increased exclusion you cite?

If its too much of a expense to make a dps meter anet should allow the community to make one.

DPS meters are just as toxic as LI requirements. If you ever played wow and raided there you would know how bad those add-ons are. It is really easy to drop dps – someone goes down -> you go rez them -> you lose dps. Someone gets kicked by trash with bomb into you -> you have to dodge out or go down -> you lose dps. DPS meters in wow caused people to play extremely selfishly because if you don’t pull “meta” numbers you will get kicked, this resulted in people blindly dps or heal and not actually help teammates when needed causing wipes in the end.

Bottom line, if such tool was implemented, even less players would be able to get into raids and raids would become even more toxic than they are already.

The real solution for the raid entrance problem should be story mode raids which don’t give as many rewards as actual raid, contain easier version of bosses and give you proof that you killed them.

As far as LI requirements go, i would actually ban people for it if i could. This is just toxic behavior created by community.

As far as LI requirements go, i would actually ban people for it if i could. This is just toxic behavior created by community.

Complains about toxic behavior.

Advocates banning people who don’t play the way he wants.

Isn’t cognitive dissonance great?

Shadowstep.6049:

DPS meters are just as toxic as LI requirements. If you ever played wow and raided there you would know how bad those add-ons are. It is really easy to drop dps – someone goes down -> you go rez them -> you lose dps. Someone gets kicked by trash with bomb into you -> you have to dodge out or go down -> you lose dps. DPS meters in wow caused people to play extremely selfishly because if you don’t pull “meta” numbers you will get kicked, this resulted in people blindly dps or heal and not actually help teammates when needed causing wipes in the end.

Bottom line, if such tool was implemented, even less players would be able to get into raids and raids would become even more toxic than they are already.

No. Decent groups will complain about people not kicking (similiar to CC) and attacking the wrong enemy. The “DPS meter” tool is capable to show such stats.

In case you have have missed it. A DPS meter is not only a ranking with numbers showcasing the DPS of each player. A DPS meter can show you pretty much every stat a fight has. In other games it includes healing done, overhealing, healing received, damage taken, interupts, dispells, deaths, revives, etc. and most of these can be filtered by enemy/spell/atack and other factors.

A GW2 “DPS meter” should additionally have stats like boons applied (for each boon), average boon count (for each boon), cc amount, time reviving, time downed, conditions applied (for each condition), average health and probably a few others that I don’t have in my head right now.

For example if there is someone who never revives. You would easily be able to spot him because his “time reviving” would be at 0 while other DPS palyers might have something at around 6 seconds.

Likewise let’s say someone deals 25% less DPS than another player with the same profession. Oh look, he only has an average might count of 15 while the other player always has 25. Maybe we should take a look at the PS warrior in the group with the low might count? (Same could be done with mesmer boons and druid healing that cripple the DPS of their group)

That’s how you know who slacks and how a group can improve. While there might be misinterpretations, this is a million times better than not even getting into a group because you do no have enough LI’s.

Neox.3497:

No. Decent groups will complain about people not kicking (similiar to CC) and attacking the wrong enemy. The “DPS meter” tool is capable to show such stats.

Wait what?

A DPS meter (that doesn’t exist in live game) is capable of showing stats on kicking and attacking the wrong enemy? … because DPS meters can differentiate what the ‘correct’ enemy a person is doing DPS on? … or because DPS meters track non-DPS functions?

Let’s not ‘invent’ what a non-existent DPS meter could do to help players, just to justify having one in game.

Obtena.7952:

Neox.3497:

No. Decent groups will complain about people not kicking (similiar to CC) and attacking the wrong enemy. The “DPS meter” tool is capable to show such stats.

Wait what?

A DPS meter (that doesn’t exist in live game) is capable of showing stats on kicking and attacking the wrong enemy? … because DPS meters can differentiate what the ‘correct’ enemy a person is doing DPS on? … or because DPS meters track non-DPS functions?

Let’s not ‘invent’ what a non-existent DPS meter could do to help players, just to justify having one in game.

What? Not sure what your point is but that’s exactly the things you can do with a “damage meter” in WoW. And thats the game the person I responded to was taking as his example. Of course it does not say “Player A is doing something wrong” but instead you can see it by looking at the stats. You can for example set it to to see how much everybody kicked in the fight (in a list/ranking) and even see who they kicked by clicking on their name in that list.

Now techinally they aren’t just a “DPS meter” or “damage meter” but EVERYBODY calls them that because that’s their main function.

Also not sure what you mean with “non-existent”. Looking at the PvP end scoreboard the foundation is already there even in GW2!

NikeEU.7690:

As far as LI requirements go, i would actually ban people for it if i could. This is just toxic behavior created by community.

Complains about toxic behavior.

Advocates banning people who don’t play the way he wants.

Isn’t cognitive dissonance great?

OK, by that logic people griefing turrets on tequatl (sitting on turrets but not shooting and thus blocking the process) play the way they want and it should be accepted. By the same logic people that push bomb in at south octovine in opposite direction on purpose play the way they want and it should be accepted. By that logic players that afk with MM necro with auto-loot and farm like this 24/7 play the way they want and it should be accepted. By that logic players that look for LGF groups, join a group and leave right away over and over again so the group can’t post LFG anymore play the way they want and it should be accepted. By that logic people that bomb RP taverns play the way they want and it should be accepted. By that logic people who afk in ranked matches should be accepted because they play the way they want.
You know why those things are bannable offense in current game? Because they are toxic to the community. LI requirements are toxic to the community – it is mobbing of the new players and players that just came back to game.

Isn’t cognitive dissonance great?

@Neox.3497: no offense but you have very naive idea about groups in online games. Decent groups like you described don’t exist. Once again, play wow, you will get full range of the awesome experience of doing raid with dps/heals/cc/boons etc. meters. Nobody cares WHY you don’t pull your numbers, they won’t look at other stats nor have time for it, they will NOT look at your rez count or boon count and what not, they will just boot you, period.
Even if you are in a raid guild, they will boot you if you don’t pull your meta numbers (i am not even talking about doing 25% less dmg, i have seen people getting booted for doing 5 % less dmg than they supposed to do according to meta) – THIS is reality and i have been raiding in wow for many years.

We already have huge elitism and toxic behavior from raid groups thanks to LI, i shudder to think what will happen if DPS meters were added to GW2.

Running a gear check or dps meter isn’t close to being the same as actively griefing players. If you think they are the same you’re being delusional in addition to having a toxic worldview.

Shadowstep.6049:

LI requirements are toxic to the community – it is mobbing of the new players and players that just came back to game.

I confess, I’m toxic because I choose the players I want to play with.
Holy moly…
Go out and try that on the court.

If players do not want to play with unexperienced players you have to accept that, period.
It’s their frickin right to exclude others and take the best they can get.

Raids and maybe Fractals could use a scorecard possibly similar to pvp at this point. Ik for a fact personally that I’m a bit fed up of seeing poorly played tempests that get stuck in the wrong attunement after overloading or dying constantly and still feel like they’re doing amazing/top damage compared to that power scrapper/eng that’s been on point the whole raid. It would also help pop some bubbles that think certain builds are still crazy strong without being fed boons and class buffs.

I really just see more positives compared to negatives at this point most training runs dps tends to be low because ppl literally don’t know how to deal effective damage or are running in super tanky gear.

If someone brings up the argument then “you’re going to have groups being made that require a minimum of like 30k dps” then those ppl are either legit crazy, haven’t actually cleared a raid outside of being carried. Every single class in this game can put out enough damage as long as they’re in dps gear and maybe fully might stacked with fury in a timely manner if ppl know what they need to do.

Neox.3497:

Obtena.7952:

Neox.3497:

No. Decent groups will complain about people not kicking (similiar to CC) and attacking the wrong enemy. The “DPS meter” tool is capable to show such stats.

Wait what?

A DPS meter (that doesn’t exist in live game) is capable of showing stats on kicking and attacking the wrong enemy? … because DPS meters can differentiate what the ‘correct’ enemy a person is doing DPS on? … or because DPS meters track non-DPS functions?

Let’s not ‘invent’ what a non-existent DPS meter could do to help players, just to justify having one in game.

What? Not sure what your point is but that’s exactly the things you can do with a “damage meter” in WoW. And thats the game the person I responded to was taking as his example. Of course it does not say “Player A is doing something wrong” but instead you can see it by looking at the stats. You can for example set it to to see how much everybody kicked in the fight (in a list/ranking) and even see who they kicked by clicking on their name in that list.

Now techinally they aren’t just a “DPS meter” or “damage meter” but EVERYBODY calls them that because that’s their main function.

Also not sure what you mean with “non-existent”. Looking at the PvP end scoreboard the foundation is already there even in GW2!

This isn’t WoW though, so again … you are ‘inventing’ what a non-existent DPS meter could do to help players in GW2, just to justify having one in game. GW2 doesn’t have one and if it did, you can’t assume it would do the things the WoW DPS meter does and you can’t assume that players would use it with it’s intended function, or use it for non-aggressive reasons.

Bottomline: What a DPS could do is not relevant to justifying putting one in GW2. That’s especially true if people play successfully without having it.

wow has dps meter and zis game doesn’t. older system has and new doesn’t. anet are lazy clowns.

What about that makes them lazy? That’s an irrational conclusion.

Last time I looked, Recount was a 3rd party add-on. The MMO giant has an in-game meter now?

Maybe i’m missing a step here….

But how are people who (claim) they can’t get into raids, going to make use of a tool for raids they (claim) cannot access ?

Not trying to dumpster the convo, but that doesn’t logically follow at all. If the issue for new players is in the entry point, no in-raid tool is going to help them find a group.

What will help them find groups is proper social tools, like guild finding, and proper social skills like accepting some form of leadership role and starting their own runs like players before them have.

TexZero.7910:

Maybe i’m missing a step here….

But how are people who (claim) they can’t get into raids, going to make use of a tool for raids they (claim) cannot access ?

Not trying to dumpster the convo, but that doesn’t logically follow at all. If the issue for new players is in the entry point, no in-raid tool is going to help them find a group.

What will help them find groups is proper social tools, like guild finding, and proper social skills like accepting some form of leadership role and starting their own runs like players before them have.

This game needs story mode raids with less rewards and easier bosses dropping KP. So even if you are new player, at least you can prove that you have general idea about how the boss works.

Cynz.9437:

TexZero.7910:

Maybe i’m missing a step here….

But how are people who (claim) they can’t get into raids, going to make use of a tool for raids they (claim) cannot access ?

Not trying to dumpster the convo, but that doesn’t logically follow at all. If the issue for new players is in the entry point, no in-raid tool is going to help them find a group.

What will help them find groups is proper social tools, like guild finding, and proper social skills like accepting some form of leadership role and starting their own runs like players before them have.

This game needs story mode raids with less rewards and easier bosses dropping KP. So even if you are new player, at least you can prove that you have general idea about how the boss works.

Knowing how an “easy mode” boss works and knowing how the the actual boss works are too completely different things. I’d rather get a total newbie who has never done a Raid before over someone who has done an easy version, because those clearing an “easy” version will know the wrong tactics, wrong builds, wrong everything.

Unless that easy mode isn’t that much easier to begin with because from the “easy modes” I’ve seen proposed so far lots of people want a joke mode that teaches absolutely nothing. Something about dungeon/t1 fractal difficulty non-sense.

maddoctor.2738:

Cynz.9437:

TexZero.7910:

Maybe i’m missing a step here….

But how are people who (claim) they can’t get into raids, going to make use of a tool for raids they (claim) cannot access ?

Not trying to dumpster the convo, but that doesn’t logically follow at all. If the issue for new players is in the entry point, no in-raid tool is going to help them find a group.

What will help them find groups is proper social tools, like guild finding, and proper social skills like accepting some form of leadership role and starting their own runs like players before them have.

This game needs story mode raids with less rewards and easier bosses dropping KP. So even if you are new player, at least you can prove that you have general idea about how the boss works.

Knowing how an “easy mode” boss works and knowing how the the actual boss works are too completely different things. I’d rather get a total newbie who has never done a Raid before over someone who has done an easy version, because those clearing an “easy” version will know the wrong tactics, wrong builds, wrong everything.

Unless that easy mode isn’t that much easier to begin with because from the “easy modes” I’ve seen proposed so far lots of people want a joke mode that teaches absolutely nothing. Something about dungeon/t1 fractal difficulty non-sense.

I agree with this and the most simplistic thing i can think of is converting the training area to have stage preps for each boss/mechanic. So you can practice as a group the phase mechanics.

maddoctor.2738:

Knowing how an “easy mode” boss works and knowing how the the actual boss works are too completely different things. I’d rather get a total newbie who has never done a Raid before over someone who has done an easy version, because those clearing an “easy” version will know the wrong tactics, wrong builds, wrong everything.

Except that in raiding game #1 it works perfectly. Opinion is opinion.

Anet made the right decision in not allowing memory readers and not adding ingame dps meters.

If Anet add dps meters, it shows that they have failed to create interesting bosses that are more than just a dps golem with a few extra mechanics.

“Think about it for a second, why are raids not accessible for new players?”
There are many reasons. dps meters would only kinda sometimes indirectly fix one of these reasons

“The only gauge of knowing what you’re doing is how many Legendary Insights you have, Kill proofs, achievement points and so on.”
How would you ping your dps as soon as you join the squad? Even if you could, dps shows your skill against the training golem, not against that particular boss. So dps meters will not replace insights and kill proofs in any way.

People who complain about raids not being accessible seem to forget that guilds exist. It is not hard to find a guild that will train you and get you your first clears. After that you can join a public lfg guild that uses ranks instead of LI to show experience.

I’ve been in many good pugs who don’t ask to ping anything. It’s not hard to tell if a player is bad without a dps meter, and having one would’t instantly make them better.

Anyone who needs a DPS meter to play this game is playing it wrong. I mean come on, this game tells you when a boss is going to do a one shot or heavy damage hit, there are markers, or a tell tail animation. The raid builds that I’ve seen on sites like meta battle even come with “How to” guides.

You don’t need a DPS meter to know when you did something wrong, you know the second it happens, you get away with it, or you end up dead. This game is not that hard to figure out. When I was raising in WoW, id watch the boss fight videos, then go do the raid, I wouldn’t need a DPS meter to know of I was doing my job, I knew how to use my skils and how to rotate them, same for this game. Once you know what to do, and how you should be doing it, you should not need them, raids have been completer with out DPS meters for the best part of a year now, I don’t see how we suddenly need them, or how they would make raids easier? I really don’t see it at all. I’ve never seen anyone use a DPS meter to get better, I’ve only ever seen them uses for 2 things. Bragging about how much more damage people have done over everyone else, or to point fingers and be little people.

I really don’t see the need for one.

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

Knowing how an “easy mode” boss works and knowing how the the actual boss works are too completely different things. I’d rather get a total newbie who has never done a Raid before over someone who has done an easy version, because those clearing an “easy” version will know the wrong tactics, wrong builds, wrong everything.

Except that in raiding game #1 it works perfectly. Opinion is opinion.

Easy mode runners will be garbage in the actual encounters. It works perfectly when the easy mode isn’t that much easier than the actual mode, or it’s exactly like the actual mode for the most part (and adds some extra phases) like in raiding game #1. Sadly as I already said, the “give us an easy mode”, like you, don’t want an adjusted version, they want a joke mode that they can run while semi-afk. That’s not how raiding game #1 works.

IonoI.3956:

How would you ping your dps as soon as you join the squad? Even if you could, dps shows your skill against the training golem, not against that particular boss.

That’s exactly why the golem dps meter isn’t very useful. What the dps meter CAN do is show how much actual dps builds are doing during the boss encounters. This in general has the potential to open up build choice as builds perform completely different against a golem and against the real bosses, not to mention many times you need to swap your build in certain bosses, something the dps golem tests do not account for.

Right now we have exclusion of entire builds and professions, with a dps meter we’ll have exclusion of bad players. It’s a choice, which one is “better”?

maddoctor.2738:

Right now we have exclusion of entire builds and professions, with a dps meter we’ll have exclusion of bad players. It’s a choice, which one is “better”?

Not really a choice, as having a dps meter would not suddenly stop having those builds and professions excluded. You’d simply have one more exclusion factor.
(also, remember that most of the exclusion happens before dps meter would show anything).

Besides, i agree with BrotherBelial here. Meters were useful in “the #1 Raid game”, because the difficulty was primarily gear based. It was important to check whether you were geared for the encounter. In GW2, most of the difficulty comes from things that wouldn’t show on meters at all.

Rednik.3809:

Except that in raiding game #1 it works perfectly.

Not for that reason, it doesn’t. It works okay here, because LFR lets you gear up, and because it starts your path towards raiding with success, rather than failure (which is a significant psychological factor). Not because it actually teaches you anything (mind you, i don’t say that it doesn’t, but that it’s not a main factor behind its success).