Guild Wars 2

Blaeys.3102:

It’s about accessibility and cohesion with the rest of GW2 endgame.

As long as one piece of the puzzle – that includes story (however slight) – is designed for a smaller subset of the PVE population, there is no way to tell the story and provide a big picture experience that logically fits together.

The reality is raids do not fit well with the original vision of this game. All you have to do is look at early articles, blogs, etc, from the developers to see that even they believed that.

I’m glad raids are here – I’m glad there is challenging content – but if they plan to continue developing raids, they need to fix this underlying problem – which means making them more accessible to players of all kinds, including those not interested in meta builds, who are less skilled and who simply do not want to invest the time raiders do into the minutia of their characters.

This is not a little thing – it is potentially destructive to the GW2 endgame experience, imo. We can only hope they understand this – and that someone there remembers some of those core tenants that made the game so popular at launch – the reason many of us left those raid heavy games to come here (and bring our communities here).

Yes, arah explorable and aetherpath destroyed the very fabric of guild wars 2.

No, wait, it was ok to have story elements behind hard content.

Absurdo.8309:

Yes, arah explorable and aetherpath destroyed the very fabric of guild wars 2.

No, wait, it was ok to have story elements behind hard content.

That argument got refuted more than once already, and yet you keep using it…

(but just to repeat it again: if raids were at the arah difficulty level, i’m pretty sure there wouldn’t be as much backlash against them as it is now)

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

It’s about accessibility and cohesion with the rest of GW2 endgame.

As long as one piece of the puzzle – that includes story (however slight) – is designed for a smaller subset of the PVE population, there is no way to tell the story and provide a big picture experience that logically fits together.

The reality is raids do not fit well with the original vision of this game. All you have to do is look at early articles, blogs, etc, from the developers to see that even they believed that.

I’m glad raids are here – I’m glad there is challenging content – but if they plan to continue developing raids, they need to fix this underlying problem – which means making them more accessible to players of all kinds, including those not interested in meta builds, who are less skilled and who simply do not want to invest the time raiders do into the minutia of their characters.

This is not a little thing – it is potentially destructive to the GW2 endgame experience, imo. We can only hope they understand this – and that someone there remembers some of those core tenants that made the game so popular at launch – the reason many of us left those raid heavy games to come here (and bring our communities here).

Yes, arah explorable and aetherpath destroyed the very fabric of guild wars 2.

No, wait, it was ok to have story elements behind hard content.

You keep bringing this up, but neither Arah nor Aetherpath rely on enrage timers – so neither of those examples really punish players for using non-meta builds or playstyles. They are still accessible – with the same chance of success – regardless of gear, builds and playstyles. That is one of the things that makes that content superior to raids – it is purely about skill rather than overcoming the artificial barriers those timers enforce (now whether or not they were difficult enough is debatable). Again, I’m not against difficult content.

The analogy/comparison just doesn’t work.

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

Yes, arah explorable and aetherpath destroyed the very fabric of guild wars 2.

No, wait, it was ok to have story elements behind hard content.

That argument got refuted more than once already, and yet you keep using it…

(but just to repeat it again: if raids were at the arah difficulty level, i’m pretty sure there wouldn’t be as much backlash against them as it is now)

I disagree. This is a matter of opinion, but I think they are of the same difficulty level. I don’t think fresh or even somewhat experienced 80s could beat the content.

People were buying arah paths right up until HOT. I would consider that hard.

And, to address the argument I actually quoted, those dungeons contain much more relevant lore and story, yet the content is still hard. Rebutting the argument that anet never puts lore or story behind hard content.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

It’s about accessibility and cohesion with the rest of GW2 endgame.

As long as one piece of the puzzle – that includes story (however slight) – is designed for a smaller subset of the PVE population, there is no way to tell the story and provide a big picture experience that logically fits together.

The reality is raids do not fit well with the original vision of this game. All you have to do is look at early articles, blogs, etc, from the developers to see that even they believed that.

I’m glad raids are here – I’m glad there is challenging content – but if they plan to continue developing raids, they need to fix this underlying problem – which means making them more accessible to players of all kinds, including those not interested in meta builds, who are less skilled and who simply do not want to invest the time raiders do into the minutia of their characters.

This is not a little thing – it is potentially destructive to the GW2 endgame experience, imo. We can only hope they understand this – and that someone there remembers some of those core tenants that made the game so popular at launch – the reason many of us left those raid heavy games to come here (and bring our communities here).

Yes, arah explorable and aetherpath destroyed the very fabric of guild wars 2.

No, wait, it was ok to have story elements behind hard content.

You keep bringing this up, but neither Arah nor Aetherpath rely on enrage timers – so neither of those examples really punished players for using non-meta builds or playstyles. They were still accessible – with the same chance of success – regardless of gear, builds and playstyles. That is one of the things that made that content superior to raids – it was purely about skill rather than overcoming the artificial barriers those timers enforce (now whether or not they were difficult enough is debatable). Again, I’m not against difficult content.

The analogy/comparison just doesn’t work.

You can walk into raids right now with non-meta gear. And beat it.

You can walk into raids right now with non-meta builds. And beat it.

Enrage timers aren’t the reason groups fail (besides gorseval, which is a dps check). It’s almost always mechanics. And an enraged boss won’t wipe the group.

Escort doesn’t even have an enrage timer. I’ve never seen trio hit enrage. I’ve never seen KC hit enrage. I’ve never seen Xera hit enrage.

Plus, these hard dungeons have “enrage like” mechanics. The final boss in aether will cover the floor with lightning. If you don’t complete certain tasks fast enough. One of the arah bosses will summon adds to kill a terminal if you don’t kill her fast enough. Another destroys projectile blocking barrels as the fight goes on. Another will destroy the reflect shields if you use them too many times.

There has always been hard content. Enrage timers do not independently make a fight hard.

EDIT: You do not have the same chance of success of beating these hard dungeons with sub optimal gear or builds.

EDIT 2: And all open world events do have time to complete timers. This makes triple trouble, in particular, hard.

Absurdo.8309:

I disagree. This is a matter of opinion, but I think they are of the same difficulty level.

Please, show me the raid that gets beaten with a group of naked bearbows (like i saw done with Arah p4). Then you might talk again about how the difficulty is comparable. Until that you have really no ground to stand on.

TexZero.7910:

Oh good so less than 80% of the accounts have an gw2e account and 80% of those have 1 airship part. What a marginally insignificant number.

Thanks stats class!

Do you have another statistical pool to show me? Maybe you can prove that 100k+ gw2e pool is somehow different from the rest of players? No, of course you don’t. For some reason you just straight refusing to believe to clear facts even when they are presented right near your face.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

Oh good so less than 80% of the accounts have an gw2e account and 80% of those have 1 airship part. What a marginally insignificant number.

Thanks stats class!

Do you have another statistical pool to show me? Maybe you can prove that 100k+ gw2e pool is somehow different from the rest of players? No, of course you don’t. For some reason you just straight refusing to believe to clear facts even when they are presented right near your face.

You’re using the word fact, but seemingly don’t understand what relevant stats are. Neither you, nor I have the adequate numbers to be making any claim based on those %’s as they are about as accurate as Voting Poll numbers prior to polls being anywhere near closed.

So here’s the facts

People want to raid, but aren’t putting the effort into raiding. Those same people are on these forums begging for a change. They make various claims as to the reason for change including “Ease, Reward, Lore, Training” and yet none of those groups of players for whatever reason can be bothered to talk to eachother and form groups.

So why should Anet, pander to you guys when the people who are currently raiding, have been able to use the tools available to them to prove that there are barriers except those you impose upon yourself.

TexZero.7910:

So why should Anet, pander to you guys when the people who are currently raiding, have been able to use the tools available to them to prove that there are barriers except those you impose upon yourself.

Because it’s not pandering – it is making a logical compromise to meet a customer and a community desire. It is also expanding the game mode to include more players and, potentially, generate greater interest in raiding – thereby creating a greater pool of potential lfg (and static group) raiders (helping fix what many see as the biggest issues with raids now).

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

So why should Anet, pander to you guys when the people who are currently raiding, have been able to use the tools available to them to prove that there are barriers except those you impose upon yourself.

Because it’s not pandering – it is making a logical compromise to meet a customer and a community desire. It is also expanding the game mode to include more players and, potentially, generate greater interest in raiding – thereby creating a greater pool of potential lfg (and static group) raiders (helping fix what many see as the biggest issues with raids now).

Current raids meet or exceed the expected participation levels according to everything Anet has said.

Why should they revamp the wheel again to cater(pander) to those that don’t even make the attempts to use the tools that are in-game when there’s already plenty of proof that the system is working and working well ?

I’d also like you to keep in mind that Raids are not meant for everyman/woman/child/amorphous blob/cat etc…. to play and complete. That is a unreasonable expectation.

Astralporing.1957:

BordeL.1283:

I still fail to see the goal of being able to complete a raid on an easy mode, even as a trial run.

Because you re not the target group this content would be developed for.

Basically, challenge is not the same for everyone. There are people that would be challenged even by the easy mode, just as there are people that are already claiming that current difficulty is faceroll easy.

BordeL.1283:

Players that want easy mode will stay in easy mode.

Even if that’s true, what’s wrong with that?

I am aware that i’m not the target for an easy mode. But did you seriously just quote me on that, passing by the arguments i wrote around that sentence? Yes, some players already find raids easy. But i don’t see forums titled “make a challenge mote raid with 3 times the rewards” because that would split the raiding group, same at the fractal tiering i hate so much.

And once again, you disregarded what i said about it not bringing more people to the raiding community. It would create a sub-category of faceroll raiders that will not merge with the regular raiding, bearing exceptions.

There’s so much things in this game that still need addressing; making a dumbed down version of a (finally) challenging content is wasted resources.

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

So why should Anet, pander to you guys when the people who are currently raiding, have been able to use the tools available to them to prove that there are barriers except those you impose upon yourself.

Because it’s not pandering – it is making a logical compromise to meet a customer and a community desire. It is also expanding the game mode to include more players and, potentially, generate greater interest in raiding – thereby creating a greater pool of potential lfg (and static group) raiders (helping fix what many see as the biggest issues with raids now).

Anet created raids in response to people asking for higher-end difficulty. It was a customer and community desire to have harder content. THAT’s the premise behind it. You’re talking logical compromise, but i only see devaluing the efforts of the developpers (not sure bout that orthograph) and of the raiders that make fair use of the tools the game gives us to fight and help the new people step up their games.

I’ve wrote it before, but an easy mode wouldn’t create a much wider static group of raiders; it would create a split-group that stays in the easy mode.

In the same optic that dungeons, personal story, sPvP, WvW and most PvE beside fractals don’t have a difficulty setting, i hardly see a point to easy mode.

The other possibility is if they created an easy-mode that was a one-time deal for rewards, so if you want the vast majority of the rewards you would have to do the normal encounter as you can’t repeat the easy-mode.

The issue is that this creates dead content, the easy-mode raid would never be repeated once it is done once.

There’s no best way to adequately implement Easy-Mode raiding that does not damage raiding as a whole. It’s a waste of time, we should instead encourage the sub-culture which is being fostered alongside other content. As more and more players raid, more training groups are made, more guilds become dedicated.

Raiding becomes another avenue for socialization, for players to face the most difficult of challenges.

well… some of the suggestion might be useful to players and also useful to anet, but at the end of the day, anet knows the numbers. anet knows the community and the connectivity of this part of the game and accessibility to all. not everyone has the interest but not everyone with interest has easy access to this. at the end of the day, anet has the numbers, and it is up to them to fine tune and adjust so it is eventually available to all but not ruining the fun of the existing raiders.
those already in raids, should be grateful that you are in and is there. and don’t forget, without enough players, there will not be future improvements. so, the more new players we get into raids, the better is for it to move forward, improve and expand.

Talindra.4958:

well… some of the suggestion might be useful to players and also useful to anet, but at the end of the day, anet knows the numbers. anet knows the community and the connectivity of this part of the game and accessibility to all. not everyone has the interest but not everyone with interest has easy access to this. at the end of the day, anet has the numbers, and it is up to them to fine tune and adjust so it is eventually available to all but not ruining the fun of the existing raiders.
those already in raids, should be grateful that you are in and is there. and don’t forget, without enough players, there will not be future improvements. so, the more new players we get into raids, the better is for it to move forward, improve and expand.

Sure more people would be nice but compromising an entire game mode just so the very worst players get a shot feels backwards to me. I hate this whole everybody is a winner mentality. This is what they did to sPvP, opened it to all the bads and casuals and farmers and league just ends up being a big joke and doesn’t really change anything in terms of challenger/pro league.

A lot of the people who want XYZ in raids to be changed aren’t the types I’d want to raid with (or do anything with) anyway and while this is a generalization I haven’t seen many forum posts from people who can’t raid but are willing to do what it takes on some level to try it out. After all, if you’re successfully raiding you’re not going to complain on here.

I recognize a fair few names who post here complaining about raids doing the same thing in sPvP subforum about leagues and after a while you realize these people are never happy and catering to them involves destroying everything you like about GW2.

fishball.7204:

Sure more people would be nice but compromising an entire game mode just so the very worst players get a shot feels backwards to me. I hate this whole everybody is a winner mentality. This is what they did to sPvP, opened it to all the bads and casuals and farmers and league just ends up being a big joke and doesn’t really change anything in terms of challenger/pro league.

Lol. Last time when I checked, pvp was killed by catering tryhards and enforcing that esports meme above everything. That failed miserably, and competitive scene died out so hard that Anet actually destroyed soloQ and hotjoins, doing everything to force at least someone to play their competitive arenas.
And you are saying that same thing will be good for PvE too. Wow.

BordeL.1283:

Yes, some players already find raids easy. But i don’t see forums titled “make a challenge mote raid with 3 times the rewards” because that would split the raiding group, same at the fractal tiering i hate so much.

You weren’t paying attention, then. There were several “raids are too easy” threads already.

BordeL.1283:

And once again, you disregarded what i said about it not bringing more people to the raiding community. It would create a sub-category of faceroll raiders that will not merge with the regular raiding, bearing exceptions.

And again, you haven’t said what’s wrong with that.

BordeL.1283:

There’s so much things in this game that still need addressing; making a dumbed down version of a (finally) challenging content is wasted resources.

Correction. Wasted to you. Because, again, it wouldn’t be content for you. That doesn’t mean other people would think the same, however.

BordeL.1283:

Anet created raids in response to people asking for higher-end difficulty. It was a customer and community desire to have harder content.

So now they can create the easy mode based on a customer and community desire to have it as well. One group is not any better (or worse) than the other in that regard.

BordeL.1283:

I’ve wrote it before, but an easy mode wouldn’t create a much wider static group of raiders; it would create a split-group that stays in the easy mode.

So what? It’s not like people were afraid of splitting community when they asked for raids, after all.

BordeL.1283:

In the same optic that dungeons, personal story, sPvP, WvW and most PvE beside fractals don’t have a difficulty setting, i hardly see a point to easy mode.

Yeah. Because you don’t need it. But other people do see that point.

From what I heard of a dozen of applications to my raiding guild – 80% of which has never killed Gorseval and beyond- the two most identified problems that bar them from raids are time commitment and networking issues. In short, many cannot play for more than 1-2 hour a day and they don’t have enough friends to practice with. Our internal survey reveals that during our training run, new trainees worry about their personal performance, concentration and after-class review more than the boss mechanics. It at least tells me that raid difficulty isn’t that high enough to bring down to another tier. What’s hard is actively involved in the raiding community and get acknowledged. In short, I don’t think easy mode would benefit the current raid scene.

Rednik.3809:

Lol. Last time when I checked, pvp was killed by catering tryhards and enforcing that esports meme above everything. That failed miserably, and competitive scene died out so hard that Anet actually destroyed soloQ and hotjoins, doing everything to force at least someone to play their competitive arenas.
And you are saying that same thing will be good for PvE too. Wow.

Solo q and hotjoin 8v8 removal wasn’t due to competitive meme esportz stuff. I disagree with ANet’s removal to those but lets not pretend that it was because of esportz that they were removed.

Some people argued that the 8v8 hotjoin arenas were removed so more people would pay for the custom arenas and host 8v8 or 10v10s aka daily rooms we have now.

As for solo queue, take a look at what the dev said here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-doesn-t-seem-improved/4640068

To clarify, the player demand was more for an unranked arena where they could play with friends and other people casually in a way more structured way than hot-join. There was also valid criticism about the validity of the solo ladder. So we felt unranked and ranked was a better split than solo and team.

I think this was a good move, especially because I believe we can have solos and pre-mades in the same queue with out compromising. I wasn’t expecting to deliver perfection on day one, so will keep trying.

Once again nothing to do with esportz.

If keyboard turning baddies had their way with PvP then we’d all be just trading kills on skyhammer jumping from the cannon instead of any semblance of real PvP. The leagues are already a joke now since they pulled in a bunch of bottom feeders with the allure of the legendary backpiece. I’m glad that raids are hard enough that the absolute baddest of bads don’t get a free ride with little exceptions.

Iris Ng.9845:

In short, I don’t think easy mode would benefit the current raid scene.

It might benefit the rest of the community, however.

How big of the community are you speaking for? Your guild? Your WvW alliance? You 1-man bank guild? Apologize for being skeptical when someone tries to speak as if they represent for a community so vague that they could have been speaking for themselves only.

fishball.7204:

Solo q and hotjoin 8v8 removal wasn’t due to competitive meme esportz stuff. I disagree with ANet’s removal to those but lets not pretend that it was because of esportz that they were removed.

Some people argued that the 8v8 hotjoin arenas were removed so more people would pay for the custom arenas and host 8v8 or 10v10s aka daily rooms we have now.

As for solo queue, take a look at what the dev said here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-doesn-t-seem-improved/4640068.

Riiight, so it was a change nobody asked for, and absolutely not because teamQ queue times was peaking over 20m+, while hotjoin and soloQ was absolutely healthy and amazingly popular. But hey, “people want to play with friends”!

fishball.7204:

If keyboard turning baddies had their way with PvP then we’d all be just trading kills on skyhammer jumping from the cannon instead of any semblance of real PvP. The leagues are already a joke now since they pulled in a bunch of bottom feeders with the allure of the legendary backpiece. I’m glad that raids are hard enough that the absolute baddest of bads don’t get a free ride with little exceptions.

Again, if majority of players enjoying doing something, who are you to say them what they must or must not to do? People who not enjoying competitive pvp are voting with their legs, and they have all rights in the world to do so.

Iris Ng.9845:

How big of the community are you speaking for? Your guild? Your WvW alliance? You 1-man bank guild? Apologize for being skeptical when someone tries to speak as if they represent for a community so vague that they could have been speaking for themselves only.

It might benefit most of the people you mentioned in your previous post. I’m sure that you yourself realize, that the applications to your guild show not even a tip of an iceberg, but just a small part of that tip.

I believe your guild identified most of the problems people have with raids correctly. Based on it you should see that players with those problems are far more likely to not even try applying anywhere. And how creating a raid-based mode with a more easygoing feel might fix a lot of this.

IndigoSundown.5419:

While I’m a supporter of raids getting harder, not easier, this analogy fails on enough levels that it does not serve your argument.

So, please do argue in favor of raids remaining exclusive, but you might want to find an analogy that does not fall flat. I’m glad you enjoy raids, but putting raid completion on the same level as winning an Olympic medal? Come on.

How did I say that completing a raid is the same as competing in the olympics? I was simply comparing the two in the sense that the sheer difficulty is what brings the entertainment value. Kicking down the difficulty to the generic open world content and turning raids into a weekly faceroll farm isn’t going to bring value to either the casual player or tryhard raider.

The entire problem with this game is that after 3 years of receiving handout content where you run braindead in a zerg to claim loot has created the most lazy and entitled crowd I’ve ever seen in a video game to date.

This entire discussion of different difficulty scales boils down to:
*Add infantile mode so braindead people with no class comprehension can clear raids.
*Players need to start being dedicated towards the goals they wish to achieve in the game.

There is literally no middle ground. Regardless of any difficulty Anet creates people will find something to complain about.

Iris Ng.9845:

From what I heard of a dozen of applications to my raiding guild – 80% of which has never killed Gorseval and beyond- the two most identified problems that bar them from raids are time commitment and networking issues. In short, many cannot play for more than 1-2 hour a day and they don’t have enough friends to practice with. Our internal survey reveals that during our training run, new trainees worry about their personal performance, concentration and after-class review more than the boss mechanics. It at least tells me that raid difficulty isn’t that high enough to bring down to another tier. What’s hard is actively involved in the raiding community and get acknowledged. In short, I don’t think easy mode would benefit the current raid scene.

I have to agree with this, raid mechanics are not really that hard in themselfes, I think most people’s issue is having 9 like minded players to do them with. Instead of creating an easy mode , anet could think about a lower man version (5) that is just as hard as 10. It would require more work on some of the bosses, but it might pay out more.

Iris Ng.9845:

How big of the community are you speaking for? Your guild? Your WvW alliance? You 1-man bank guild? Apologize for being skeptical when someone tries to speak as if they represent for a community so vague that they could have been speaking for themselves only.

He could be talking about the recent reddit poll which shows twice as many people want to raid compared to those who raid, but (imo) in reality this number is higher since a raider is more likely use the forums & reddit than a non-raider.

Setz.9675:

Kicking down the difficulty to the generic open world content and turning raids into a weekly faceroll farm isn’t going to bring value to either the casual player or tryhard raider.

The entire problem with this game is that after 3 years of receiving handout content where you run braindead in a zerg to claim loot has created the most lazy and entitled crowd I’ve ever seen in a video game to date.

The real laziness on these forums comes in the form of hyperbolic, bull-kitten reasoning and weak, reductive arguments.

Case in point:

Setz.9675:

This entire discussion of different difficulty scales boils down to:
*Add infantile mode so braindead people with no class comprehension can clear raids.
*Players need to start being dedicated towards the goals they wish to achieve in the game.

Look, each type of game content is enjoyed in a myriad of ways for just as many reasons. You can’t say adding tiered difficulty isn’t going to bring value, because it certainly will to at least some players. The real bottom line is whether there are enough of them to warrant the time and resources needed. The frequency of this topic popping up does suggest that this is the case.

And there is absolutely no inherent value in a particular approach to gaming. Trying to put down players as lazy and entitled is silly. Video games, particularly MMOs, are essentially fun ways of passing time. This is also arguably one of the laziest hobbies ever. Barring a few exceptions (E-Sports and Pro Streamers) whether you take gaming seriously or not, makes no difference. All that matters is individual enjoyment.

Jahroots.6791:

Setz.9675:

Kicking down the difficulty to the generic open world content and turning raids into a weekly faceroll farm isn’t going to bring value to either the casual player or tryhard raider.

The entire problem with this game is that after 3 years of receiving handout content where you run braindead in a zerg to claim loot has created the most lazy and entitled crowd I’ve ever seen in a video game to date.

The real laziness on these forums comes in the form of hyperbolic, bull-kitten reasoning and weak, reductive arguments.

Case in point:

Setz.9675:

This entire discussion of different difficulty scales boils down to:
*Add infantile mode so braindead people with no class comprehension can clear raids.
*Players need to start being dedicated towards the goals they wish to achieve in the game.

Look, each type of game content is enjoyed in a myriad of ways for just as many reasons. You can’t say adding tiered difficulty isn’t going to bring value, because it certainly will to at least some players. The real bottom line is whether there are enough of them to warrant the time and resources needed. The frequency of this topic popping up does suggest that this is the case.

And there is absolutely no inherent value in a particular approach to gaming. Trying to put down players as lazy and entitled is silly. Video games, particularly MMOs, are essentially fun ways of passing time. This is also arguably one of the laziest hobbies ever. Barring a few exceptions (E-Sports and Pro Streamers) whether you take gaming seriously or not, makes no difference. All that matters is individual enjoyment.

The frequency of it showing up isn’t actually cause to think the case is valid. Especially when you’re talking about the same 4 users posting the topic on a near weekly basis depending on the last closed thread date.

Additionally if the problem was, as wide spread as to be believed you’d see a much much much larger outcry (HoT Price thread comes to mind). Right now this is much ado about nothing from a very vocal minority who have yet to, for whatever reason they chose attempt to raid, attempt to lead a raid, attempt to join the current raiding scene/community. That’s on them to fix, not any new mode, not any lower difficulty. If you don’t want to work toward a goal, then you probably don’t deserve any sort of special treatment nor any rewards garnered by players who do.

Jahroots.6791:

Setz.9675:

Kicking down the difficulty to the generic open world content and turning raids into a weekly faceroll farm isn’t going to bring value to either the casual player or tryhard raider.

The entire problem with this game is that after 3 years of receiving handout content where you run braindead in a zerg to claim loot has created the most lazy and entitled crowd I’ve ever seen in a video game to date.

The real laziness on these forums comes in the form of hyperbolic, bull-kitten reasoning and weak, reductive arguments.

Case in point:

Setz.9675:

This entire discussion of different difficulty scales boils down to:
*Add infantile mode so braindead people with no class comprehension can clear raids.
*Players need to start being dedicated towards the goals they wish to achieve in the game.

Look, each type of game content is enjoyed in a myriad of ways for just as many reasons. You can’t say adding tiered difficulty isn’t going to bring value, because it certainly will to at least some players. The real bottom line is whether there are enough of them to warrant the time and resources needed. The frequency of this topic popping up does suggest that this is the case.

And there is absolutely no inherent value in a particular approach to gaming. Trying to put down players as lazy and entitled is silly. Video games, particularly MMOs, are essentially fun ways of passing time. This is also arguably one of the laziest hobbies ever. Barring a few exceptions (E-Sports and Pro Streamers) whether you take gaming seriously or not, makes no difference. All that matters is individual enjoyment.

How about you start focussing on the actual issue instead of beating around the bush. The problem with raids isn’t the mechanics or boss difficulty, all of that can be learned over time. The problem starts when trying to find 9 like-minded players that are able to play at the same time and having the same learning skills so people don’t fall behind others.

Also if you want to talk about weak arguments, how about you read up on the purpose and intention with which raids were created. All these threads become completely moot the moment you walk out of your vacuum.

You are the kind of guy that buys a car with the intention to sail with it, then complain to car factorys that your car is unable to float.

TexZero.7910:

The frequency of it showing up isn’t actually cause to think the case is valid. Especially when you’re talking about the same 4 users posting the topic on a near weekly basis depending on the last closed thread date.

Try to visit Reddit some day, you know, place where anet devs are really answers to players unlike this forum, and then tell me more about 4 people.

TexZero.7910:

Additionally if the problem was, as wide spread as to be believed you’d see a much much much larger outcry (HoT Price thread comes to mind). Right now this is much ado about nothing from a very vocal minority who have yet to, for whatever reason they chose attempt to raid, attempt to lead a raid, attempt to join the current raiding scene/community. That’s on them to fix, not any new mode, not any lower difficulty. If you don’t want to work toward a goal, then you probably don’t deserve any sort of special treatment nor any rewards garnered by players who do.

Interesting words, especially from REAL vocal minority, who trying to deny others from experiencing raids, because they are dare to not overcome badly designed entrance barrier by all costs, but instead asking devs to pay attention to their flaws.
Here, fun example for you, fresh from LFR.

Setz.9675:

How about you start focussing on the actual issue instead of beating around the bush. The problem with raids isn’t the mechanics or boss difficulty, all of that can be learned over time. The problem starts when trying to find 9 like-minded players that are able to play at the same time and having the same learning skills so people don’t fall behind others.

I agree that this is probably the largest obstacle for most players. But only because the difficulty and mechanics ‘force’ players to be very selective in who they take along with ’em.

Which kind of leads to another funny observation I’ve made. People just love to talk about how the masses are lazy and want mindless, ‘faceroll’-easy content, yet most raiders are fundamentally no different. In the 30-odd raids I’ve run, there’s always a couple guys who will bail if there’s a wipe or two. Very few people are looking for a legitimate challenge. The only major difference between the average casual and hardcore player is in how much effort each needs to feel like they’re putting in to get a sense of accomplishment. The end goal is always the same though – smooth and seamless completion.

Mind you, I don’t take issue with this. My time is precious too. I just find it a bit disingenuous.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

The frequency of it showing up isn’t actually cause to think the case is valid. Especially when you’re talking about the same 4 users posting the topic on a near weekly basis depending on the last closed thread date.

Try to visit Reddit some day, you know, place where anet devs are really answers to players unlike this forum, and then tell me more about 4 people.

TexZero.7910:

Additionally if the problem was, as wide spread as to be believed you’d see a much much much larger outcry (HoT Price thread comes to mind). Right now this is much ado about nothing from a very vocal minority who have yet to, for whatever reason they chose attempt to raid, attempt to lead a raid, attempt to join the current raiding scene/community. That’s on them to fix, not any new mode, not any lower difficulty. If you don’t want to work toward a goal, then you probably don’t deserve any sort of special treatment nor any rewards garnered by players who do.

Interesting words, especially from REAL vocal minority, who trying to deny others from experiencing raids, because they are dare to not overcome badly designed entrance barrier by all costs, but instead asking devs to pay attention to their flaws.
Here, fun example for you, fresh from LFR.

The ‘badly designed entrance barrier’ is made by players, get a grip. I did VG with 0 LI, where can I collect my medal? You are talking about pug players here with ‘fairly high’ experience and don’t want to carry players or waste time sorting their kitten out. Is it extreme? Sure it is but this is not Anets fault nor is this how the majority of raiders work with. Stop projecting your pug experience as global raid community issues.

Rednik.3809:

Interesting words, especially from REAL vocal minority, who trying to deny others from experiencing raids, because they are dare to not overcome badly designed entrance barrier by all costs, but instead asking devs to pay attention to their flaws.
Here, fun example for you, fresh from LFR.

I still want to see the big majority of players that are against raids. Maybe it’s way more that many players don’t care about this type of content and they are playing their stuff (PvE open world, fracs, PvP, WvW). I never read anything against raids ingame, never. And every day everybody of us is seeing lots of players out there.

Btw: Fresh from LFR:

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

The frequency of it showing up isn’t actually cause to think the case is valid. Especially when you’re talking about the same 4 users posting the topic on a near weekly basis depending on the last closed thread date.

Try to visit Reddit some day, you know, place where anet devs are really answers to players unlike this forum, and then tell me more about 4 people.

TexZero.7910:

Additionally if the problem was, as wide spread as to be believed you’d see a much much much larger outcry (HoT Price thread comes to mind). Right now this is much ado about nothing from a very vocal minority who have yet to, for whatever reason they chose attempt to raid, attempt to lead a raid, attempt to join the current raiding scene/community. That’s on them to fix, not any new mode, not any lower difficulty. If you don’t want to work toward a goal, then you probably don’t deserve any sort of special treatment nor any rewards garnered by players who do.

Interesting words, especially from REAL vocal minority, who trying to deny others from experiencing raids, because they are dare to not overcome badly designed entrance barrier by all costs, but instead asking devs to pay attention to their flaws.
Here, fun example for you, fresh from LFR.

And where is your own ?

’nuff said.

Setz.9675:

The ‘badly designed entrance barrier’ is made by players, get a grip. I did VG with 0 LI, where can I collect my medal? You are talking about pug players here with ‘fairly high’ experience and don’t want to carry players or waste time sorting their kitten out. Is it extreme? Sure it is but this is not Anets fault nor is this how the majority of raiders work with. Stop projecting your pug experience as global raid community issues.

No. It’s EXCLUSIVELY Anet fault, big, huge, massive design fault, taken right from some ancient 10 years old WoW design document, because this is how community works in situation like this.
Lots of people who want to raid but too inexperienced, solid raider core who don’t give a kitten about them (why should they, there is no rewards after reset. Yeah, tell me about teaching guilds, which is 3 for WHOLE EU), and a pug crowd, with a 80 LI demand for VG run because they don’t want to see inexperienced guys.
But hey, this is not anet fault, that’s your fault, GW2 was advertised as game with a raiding PvE endgame from the very beginning, right?

Rednik.3809:

Setz.9675:

The ‘badly designed entrance barrier’ is made by players, get a grip. I did VG with 0 LI, where can I collect my medal? You are talking about pug players here with ‘fairly high’ experience and don’t want to carry players or waste time sorting their kitten out. Is it extreme? Sure it is but this is not Anets fault nor is this how the majority of raiders work with. Stop projecting your pug experience as global raid community issues.

No. It’s EXCLUSIVELY Anet fault, big, huge, massive design fault, taken right from some ancient 10 years old WoW design document, because this is how community works in situation like this.
Lots of people who want to raid but too inexperienced, solid raider core who don’t give a kitten about them (why should they, there is no rewards after reset. Yeah, tell me about teaching guilds, which is 3 for WHOLE EU), and a pug crowd, with a 80 LI demand for VG run because they don’t want to see inexperienced guys.
But hey, this is not anet fault, that’s your fault, GW2 was advertised as game with a raiding PvE endgame from the very beginning, right?

I’m not a smart person but could you point out any game where players could not discriminate against others with regards to these sort of arbitrary requirements?

Rednik, stop being so adverse to raids when you don’t even join your own guild’s raids that are being advertised in guild chat and are then 8-manned by fairly casual players because everyone is too apathetic to join when they were even being advertised as being free kills.

Setz.9675:

Rednik.3809:

Setz.9675:

The ‘badly designed entrance barrier’ is made by players, get a grip. I did VG with 0 LI, where can I collect my medal? You are talking about pug players here with ‘fairly high’ experience and don’t want to carry players or waste time sorting their kitten out. Is it extreme? Sure it is but this is not Anets fault nor is this how the majority of raiders work with. Stop projecting your pug experience as global raid community issues.

No. It’s EXCLUSIVELY Anet fault, big, huge, massive design fault, taken right from some ancient 10 years old WoW design document, because this is how community works in situation like this.
Lots of people who want to raid but too inexperienced, solid raider core who don’t give a kitten about them (why should they, there is no rewards after reset. Yeah, tell me about teaching guilds, which is 3 for WHOLE EU), and a pug crowd, with a 80 LI demand for VG run because they don’t want to see inexperienced guys.
But hey, this is not anet fault, that’s your fault, GW2 was advertised as game with a raiding PvE endgame from the very beginning, right?

I’m not a smart person but could you point out any game where players could not discriminate against others with regards to these sort of arbitrary requirements?

It really is a matter of degrees. Yes, there will be some of this in pretty much any MMO (and other life examples as well), but there is a point where it becomes considerably worse.

The example I would give you of a game that really discouraged this kind of behavior is pretty easy – GW2 at launch and during the first 3 years.

The developers went out of their way to address the more antisocial aspects of MMO game play. Shared resource nodes, individual loot tables (which other MMOs are now mimicking), scalable content from lvls 1-80, scalable dungeons, fractal levels, equalized gear in PvP, attempts to balance populations in WvW, quickly addressing toxic farming behavior, an accessible end game model, etc. – these were fairly new concepts with GW2 – mostly designed to combat the elitism we saw in other games.

That is what brought me (and many others) to this game. We were tired of someone who could kill a pixelated dragon a few seconds faster than someone else thinking that somehow made them a better person – and game systems that supported that distorted perspective.

Anet has always cared about keeping that kind of attitude out of the game – through game mechanics that discouraged or actively addressed them. The problem with raiding in GW2, imo, is that they didn’t apply that same filter to this content when building the foundational system, and now we are seeing the results.

There are some EXTREMELY creative people at ANet. It saddens me that they didn’t apply the same creativity to this in raids the same way they did to the rest of the game early on.

Blaeys.3102:

Setz.9675:

Rednik.3809:

Setz.9675:

The ‘badly designed entrance barrier’ is made by players, get a grip. I did VG with 0 LI, where can I collect my medal? You are talking about pug players here with ‘fairly high’ experience and don’t want to carry players or waste time sorting their kitten out. Is it extreme? Sure it is but this is not Anets fault nor is this how the majority of raiders work with. Stop projecting your pug experience as global raid community issues.

No. It’s EXCLUSIVELY Anet fault, big, huge, massive design fault, taken right from some ancient 10 years old WoW design document, because this is how community works in situation like this.
Lots of people who want to raid but too inexperienced, solid raider core who don’t give a kitten about them (why should they, there is no rewards after reset. Yeah, tell me about teaching guilds, which is 3 for WHOLE EU), and a pug crowd, with a 80 LI demand for VG run because they don’t want to see inexperienced guys.
But hey, this is not anet fault, that’s your fault, GW2 was advertised as game with a raiding PvE endgame from the very beginning, right?

I’m not a smart person but could you point out any game where players could not discriminate against others with regards to these sort of arbitrary requirements?

It really is a matter of degrees. Yes, there will be some of this in pretty much any MMO (and other life examples as well), but there is a point where it becomes considerably worse.

The example I would give you of a game that really discouraged this kind of behavior is pretty easy – GW2 at launch and during the first 3 years.

The developers went out of their way to address the more antisocial aspects of MMO game play. Shared resource nodes, individual loot tables (which other MMOs are now mimicking), scalable content from lvls 1-80, scalable dungeons, fractal levels, equalized gear in PvP, attempts to balance populations in WvW, quickly addressing toxic farming behavior, an accessible end game model, etc. – these were fairly new concepts with GW2 – mostly designed to combat the elitism we saw in other games.

That is what brought me (and many others) to this game. We were tired of someone who could kill a pixelated dragon a few seconds faster than someone else thinking that somehow made them a better person – and game systems that supported that distorted perspective.

Anet has always cared about that kind of thing. The problem with raiding in GW2, imo, is that they didn’t apply that same filter to this content when building the foundational system, and now we are seeing the results.

There are some EXTREMELY creative people at ANet. It saddens me that they didn’t apply the same creativity to this in raids the same way they did to the rest of the game early on.

Uh what ?

LFG, Forums, Reddit etc… It’s not Anets fault if people do not socialize and form groups. It’s the people’s.

Anet gave you all the tools, if you refuse to use them, if you refuse to create your own inclusive group, you are the source of your problem and nothing Anet can do will solve that.

Anet has done a fantastic job at making the game inclusive to everyone, including as they have done with raids. No fight takes more than 15 minutes. You can literally once you’ve learned the content (no different than any part of this game), go in and do it.

So…please explain how this is Anet’s failure and not on the players.

Once again, it comes down to degrees and opinions about those degrees.

I – and many others – disagree with the statement:

TexZero.7910:

Anet has done a fantastic job at making the game inclusive to everyone, including as they have done with raids.

to varying degrees.

On the other side, you and many others feel raids are in a good spot – again to varying degrees.

I don’t think any side (and there are more than two) is being irrational – they are simply arguing the point from their own perspectives – which is why I am glad this conversation continues, and I am glad that most people, including you, are remaining civil and providing productive feedback.

In the end, it will come down to Anet, their vision for the game going forward and the weight they give the various arguments we are making here.

I do not think raids are in a good place. While I am raiding myself (and even enjoying the mechanics), I see a lot of people – both in my guild and in the community as a whole – who are effectively locked out of the gameplay due to their commitment level, desire to play an extremely non-meta build or general skill at the game (often due to age, disability or just lack of reflexes). I also see a lot of people put off by the barrier to entry, but who would still enjoy learning and experiencing the fights in a less stressful setup first. And, many of those people are my good friends – I want to play this content with those people.

I want a game in which all PVE modes are built first and foremost around the idea of community and accessibility, which Anet succeeded brilliantly in providing at launch a few years ago.

After that exists, I definitely want challenging content – throughout the game. I just don’t want it at the expense of the more important concepts of community and accessibility.

Now, I respect that you may disagree with that prioritization – and we are back to opinion and degrees – which make this conversation one of the more important on these forums right now (which accounts for my – and your – zeal to make sure our opinions are heard).

Blaeys.3102:

I want a game in which all PVE modes are built first and foremost around the idea of community and accessibility, which Anet succeeded brilliantly in providing at launch a few years ago.

After that exists, I definitely want challenging content – throughout the game. I just don’t want it at the expense of the more important concepts of community and accessibility.

Funny, what you claim to want….Is exactly what we have now.

We have multiple modes and avenues of play for the groups you mention. So please explain why Raids have to suffer for this ?

Why do Raids specifically irk you so much that you’ve put on blinders to the fact that raids are accessible by anyone who is willing to do so ?
The tools are there for all players to unite and play with like minded players and yet somehow it’s a problem ?

If anything is the problem it’s the player base who still refuses to use the tools available to them. I will not stop harking on this point because what you claim the problem with “raids inclusiveness” being an issue is actually a legit joke as the same content you praise for accessibility (dungeons) has the exact same ways of filtering players.

TexZero.7910:

Funny, what you claim to want….Is exactly what we have now.

Again, this is about opinion and degrees – which vary based on your perspective and how you play the game. Not everyone believes that what we have now is inclusive at all.

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

Funny, what you claim to want….Is exactly what we have now.

Again, this is about opinion and degrees – which vary based on your perspective and how you play the game. Not everyone believes that what we have now is inclusive at all.

What opinion ?

We have

Easy content
Dungeons, World Bosses (ex TT), mini-dungeons, jumping puzzles, personal story, living world story

Medium content
Fractals (requires some knowledge of mechanics and has a minor barrier to entry in growing AR)

Hard
Raids

No opinion there, there’s diversity and the majority of content is inclusive.

Raids by their nature are not meant to be inclusive to all, but rather all that want to be included in them and put forth the effort to do so. This is no different than any aspect of the game.

Dungeons utilize the same LFG tool raids do, and yet you seem to think this is working fine even with the exclusionary post that are on those and used to be seen on them. So i fail to see how one could reasonably complain about raids.

If players want Inclusive groups, it’s on them to form that type of environment. If people want to set unreasonable expectations for players to join that’s on them.

So use the dang tools and form the type of group you want instead of complaining that there’s a systemic failure when clearly the only failure is on the people for not using the tools at their disposal.

Blaeys.3102:

The example I would give you of a game that really discouraged this kind of behavior is pretty easy – GW2 at launch and during the first 3 years.

So you saying that in first 3 years of the game we had literally no “elitist” lfgs with random player made requirements?

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Blaeys.3102:

The example I would give you of a game that really discouraged this kind of behavior is pretty easy – GW2 at launch and during the first 3 years.

So you saying that in first 3 years of the game we had literally no “elitist” lfgs with random player made requirements?

As I said above, it is about degrees. Of course the attitude has persisted since the game started. It is impossible to completely stamp it out.

But, with content prior to raids, I believe Anet did a much better job discouraging and even actively combatting the issue – through all of the areas I mention in an earlier post. As a result of the raid model they are incorporating, it is now at a level that makes this game feel like those games a lot of us escaped to come here.

I think they could have employed the same level of creativity they used in those game modes in raids but were caught up in the need to quickly market a new mode of challenging content.

I also think it is not too late to implement revisions and adapt, thus the ongoing dialogue.

Setz.9675:

I’m not a smart person but could you point out any game where players could not discriminate against others with regards to these sort of arbitrary requirements?

Ofc they could, and do. But wide playerbase can ease situation a lot, creating a natural skill ladder where anyone can find his place and sooner or later become experienced player without beating his head against a wall. That’s how it works, and that’s why old raid model died out almost everywhere by now… except GW2. Which is very weird, considering history of this game.

Blaeys.3102:

I believe Anet did a much better job discouraging and even actively combatting the issue – through all of the areas I mention in an earlier post.

What did they do to stop people from creating “ac p1 10k+ ap ele only” lfgs?

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Blaeys.3102:

I believe Anet did a much better job discouraging and even actively combatting the issue – through all of the areas I mention in an earlier post.

What did they do to stop people from creating “ac p1 10k+ ap ele only” lfgs?

Absolutely nothing – but, as five player content (with no artificial barriers such as enrage timers), it was MUCH easier to find another group that wasn’t as shortsighted.

Again – about degrees. I’m not saying it was completely stamped out, just that with raids, they really have deviated from their typical approach to community and content accessibility – resulting in a much higher level of this kind of thing.

Also, as an FYI, people on these forums have said that these comments on reddit are from you because of the similarities in name:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4s58i2/woodenpotatoes_waiting_on_season_3_the_content/d57vhdj?context=3

Given your calm demeanor on these forums and willingness to have an actual conversation – and the extreme derision and irrational hate this person communicated, I’m thinking this is probably just someone who chose a similar name. Something you should be aware of, though.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Blaeys.3102:

I believe Anet did a much better job discouraging and even actively combatting the issue – through all of the areas I mention in an earlier post.

What did they do to stop people from creating “ac p1 10k+ ap ele only” lfgs?

Nothing to stop them, but i believe that the fact that “ac p1 casual run” lfgs not only filled faster, but had generally the same chance of success greatly reduced such behaviour. When i looked at LFGs pre dungeon reward nerf, those with high requirements were relatively uncomon, and even lot of veterans treated them as a joke. While there were always a number of those with moderate reqs (generally “lev 80” ones), there were also always those with no reqs whatsoever, or marked as “casual”, “open” or “all invited”

Blaeys.3102:

Again – about degrees. I’m not saying it was completely stamped out, just that with raids, they really have deviated from their typical approach to community and content accessibility – resulting in a much higher level of this kind of thing.

Literally and patently false.

Nothing they’ve done has changed or removed your ability to get into the content. Nothing they’ve done has removed your tools to form your own groups.

The claim that raids have an accessibility issue is getting pretty absurd. Yet again it comes down to the group of people who refuse to form their own group pandering for anet to fix a non-existent problem.

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

Again – about degrees. I’m not saying it was completely stamped out, just that with raids, they really have deviated from their typical approach to community and content accessibility – resulting in a much higher level of this kind of thing.

Literally and patently false.

Nothing they’ve done has changed or removed your ability to get into the content. Nothing they’ve done has removed your tools to form your own groups.

Again, this is your opinion, just as what I have said is my opinion. It is why I stress this conversation isn’t about absolutes – its about degrees.

This is all based on the perspective we bring to the situation.

There is a actually a great book about this from Umberto Eco entitled Kant and the Platypus. It talks about how our personal and cultural experiences/beliefs form our opinions and even our definitions of things around us – even those we hold to be sacrosanct (which you apparently do with the above).

In short, our personal perspectives define our personal realities. That is where our divergent opinions come from.

I respect that your opinion is different than mine. If you cannot find a way to respect the same of mine, then there is no point in the two of us continuing to contradict one another. It will just become a vicious circle with no end.