Guild Wars 2

Blaeys.3102:

Nozome.7853:

Raids should remain with one mode. The percentage of players wanting a harder mode is really low , and having an easier mode makes no sense. How much easier should they be? VG was killed by 4 people!!!

The fact that VG was killed with 4 people only illustrates that there are players out there with tremendous skill and the desire to microanalyze everything needed to do this kind of thing. It does not, in any way, speak to the accessibility of the fight. Every raiding MMO out there sees groups like this doing amazing (borderline crazy) things like this. There will always be a tiny group of players looking to develop speed run or limited number metas to do things like this.

In fact, it creates even more need for multiple difficulties. As these small groups get better and better at raids, the gap between PVE players will widen way more than we see now. As Anet works harder and harder to challenge these small groups, more and more people would be left behind with a single difficulty level. There will be greater need for challenge motes, tiered difficulty levels and a deeper pool of potential players raiding.

That will dictate the implementation of core systems designed to address this. What they DESPARATELY need to do is accept that and implement tiered or variable difficulties now – to retain the number of active raiders and warrant continued development on raids.

The fact that 4 people finished a raid shows that it can be done by 4 people; it doesn’t say anything about how good those four people have to be nor does it say anything about how much their experience can apply to 10 people.

However, it also shows that raids aren’t nearly as difficult as the community thinks. It demonstrates that it is likely that people will find a way to make it easier for the “average” non-raider to succeed.

In other words, this demonstrates that the game already offers multiple challenge levels for raids (4-person, non-ascended, less-than-exotic, etc).

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In other words, this demonstrates that the game already offers multiple challenge levels for raids (4-person, non-ascended, less-than-exotic, etc).

Yes, but only up from the base difficulty level.

Miellyn.6847:

Astralporing.1957:

]No. They aren’t. They are needed only to populate content that would be underpopulated otherwise – so, one that is generally disliked.

Yes, the rewards need to be good (as the dungeons nerf clearly shown), but they don’t need to be exclusive. In fact, making people play the content just for those rewards is often seen as a bad choice. Just ask most of the sPvP veterans what they think about “PvE scrubs” that were playing ranked just to get the backpack.

Or maybe ask worldbosses before the loot buff. If you make things available in more paths, people choose the easier road everything and the other path dies. This applies for all content. Add the map specific rewards in HoT to all HoT maps and all maps except Auric Basin die.

They might, but why wait?

Why do you need to have everything the second it comes available? That’s the charm of GW2, all content stays relevant the whole time, why nerf something for crying people when time does the same?

Zenith.7301:

This is the argument of idiots.

WoW raids have been cleared, including mythic raids, with gear from the previous tier and little/no gear from the tier of the current raid.

Gear is not the driver for raiding in WoW. Raiding is the driver for raiding, because the challenge of the encounters is fun.

And don’t pretend for a second that GW2 raids are more complex than Mythic or WoW or Wildstar raids.

Yes LFR is driven by gear progression, the difficulty is a joke. Reduce the itemlevel to heroic dungeons and many won’t play it anymore and the rest plays it once.

WoW raids aren’t complex. They are overloaded with mechanics because addons trivialize most of them. Adding more mechanics is the only way to make them hard.
Reduce time for CC at Matthias, increase damage from all sources and remove the ability to revive downed people and you have a mystic raid boss.

Um, not really. Because LFR already drops gear that is worse than mythic dungeons and normal Highmaul, and people still do LFR. You know, for those legendary materials or because they’re bored or because they’re tanks/healers and want the bonus bags for chances at rare mounts.

If you say WoW mythics are so trivialized by add ons please feel free to link us your character logs rankings and mythic kills achievements.

Because these “trivialized” raids still take far longer to clear than the 1-3 days it takes to clear a single wing in this game.

You yourself kinda just admitted to that when you suggested changes to Matthias to make him “mythic”.

P.S. This game already has add on’s. They’re just not officially supported, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

The raids in this game don’t need nerfs or easy modes. Their difficulty is pretty average and that’s fine.

Zenith.7301:

Um, not really. Because LFR already drops gear that is worse than mythic dungeons and normal Highmaul, and people still do LFR. You know, for those legendary materials or because they’re bored or because they’re tanks/healers and want the bonus bags for chances at rare mounts.

If you say WoW mythics are so trivialized by add ons please feel free to link us your character logs rankings and mythic kills achievements.

Because these “trivialized” raids still take far longer to clear than the 1-3 days it takes to clear a single wing in this game.

You yourself kinda just admitted to that when you suggested changes to Matthias to make him “mythic”.

P.S. This game already has add on’s. They’re just not officially supported, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

The raids in this game don’t need nerfs or easy modes. Their difficulty is pretty average and that’s fine.

Mystic dungeons require manual groups, LFR is completly automatic and the second half has the same item level as mystic dungeons and mystic highmaul.

I never said the bosses aren’t hard. I said they aren’t complex. It’s not the same. You can create a 30min bossfight with very frequent 1 ability that kills you with one hit. That boss is hard but not complex.
You can’t compare clear times between WoW and GW2.
All top groups start with BiS equipment in GW2.
Give a group in WoW BiS equipment and let them clear a raid. It won’t take much longer.
Lichking was mathematically unkillable before the 5% buff without weapons from him. Without the panic healthbuff and limited attempts he would have died in the first week and still people think he was one of the hardest bosses ever in WoW.

The problem with raids is the fact developers still deploy the same simplistic functionality of stacking mechanics under a time-gate. Instead the developers should have not only raids, but world bosses consider the composition of the group of players engaging them and have different tactics deployed by the bosses. Rewards, I agree, should be tiered in which the faster a group progresses through the better the loot. Why? Because once the players learn the bosses they become rote? If bosses had completely different tactics in the fight dependent on the composition of players the fights would stay fresh and unique and be harder to learn. Right now it is just a simple dps race.

I don’t think there is necessarily anything wrong with difficulties, but you lose something its not all gain. There is something special about walking into a place you’ve never been, and facing a challenge you may not be up to.

It is fundamentally different to walk in knowing its nerfed and easy, and then to return to something you’ve already seen, and flip a switch to make it harder.

If there was an “LFR” in GW2 it wouldn’t be the end of the world, but we shouldn’t pretend it’s only a better thing. Also of course, another dev is adding hundreds of “if/then”statements to the game, not working on making it better or adding anything new.

curtegg.5216:

The problem with raids is the fact developers still deploy the same simplistic functionality of stacking mechanics under a time-gate. Instead the developers should have not only raids, but world bosses consider the composition of the group of players engaging them and have different tactics deployed by the bosses. Rewards, I agree, should be tiered in which the faster a group progresses through the better the loot. Why? Because once the players learn the bosses they become rote? If bosses had completely different tactics in the fight dependent on the composition of players the fights would stay fresh and unique and be harder to learn. Right now it is just a simple dps race.

I don’t disagree with this, but consider how much QQ and complaining and forum rage posts that would follow a change like this.

curtegg.5216:

The problem with raids is the fact developers still deploy the same simplistic functionality of stacking mechanics under a time-gate. Instead the developers should have not only raids, but world bosses consider the composition of the group of players engaging them and have different tactics deployed by the bosses. Rewards, I agree, should be tiered in which the faster a group progresses through the better the loot. Why? Because once the players learn the bosses they become rote? If bosses had completely different tactics in the fight dependent on the composition of players the fights would stay fresh and unique and be harder to learn. Right now it is just a simple dps race.

Not only this is a huge amount of work, but it also gonna completely remove any class/build diversity we have left.

The biggest problem with LFR is if you have a system which gives you 10 random people, the content will need to be easy enough to succeed with 10 random people. Even in fractals people in pugs can fail time to time let alone pug raids.

The introduction of LFR would just make raids way too faceroll so that the LFR population can clear it OR alternatively all the LFRs fail raids at the current difficulty which defeats the point of LFR.

So much work for so little gain.

fishball.7204:

So much work for so little gain.

It’s “little gain” only for those that are already raiding.

Blaeys.3102:

Nozome.7853:

Raids should remain with one mode. The percentage of players wanting a harder mode is really low , and having an easier mode makes no sense. How much easier should they be? VG was killed by 4 people!!!

The fact that VG was killed with 4 people only illustrates that there are players out there with tremendous skill and the desire to microanalyze everything needed to do this kind of thing. It does not, in any way, speak to the accessibility of the fight. Every raiding MMO out there sees groups like this doing amazing (borderline crazy) things like this. There will always be a tiny group of players looking to develop speed run or limited number metas to do things like this.

In fact, it creates even more need for multiple difficulties. As these small groups get better and better at raids, the gap between PVE players will widen way more than we see now. As Anet works harder and harder to challenge these small groups, more and more people would be left behind with a single difficulty level. There will be greater need for challenge motes, tiered difficulty levels and a deeper pool of potential players raiding.

That will dictate the implementation of core systems designed to address this. What they DESPARATELY need to do is accept that and implement tiered or variable difficulties now – to retain the number of active raiders and warrant continued development on raids.

The fact that people since the launch of raids are clearing them more effectively, including high end players that 4 man VG and suboptimal PuG groups with 2 minutes left on the clock means there is alot of room for error in the current raids. It clearly shows it’s not that difficult and people are apperantly adapting to the raids by playing them.

Mikei the Mighty did an interview with a quantify member that felt like the current raid difficulty is perfectly fine, and he believed his guildies felt the same way. The reason being it gives his guild a nice challenge for casual runs and also the option to experience a different challenge when low manning.

As for using easy mode as a way to train, pretty similar to fractals. I will reply by saying I experienced the low lv fractals as a necessary evil being the clown fiesta they are, not requiring me to learn anything about the encounter and in no way were they a true preparation for the high lv fractals.

I fear valuable resources allocated to training raids would result in a suboptimal training experience that is in no way effective for learning encounters and does not increase the accessibility of the real raids.

I rather as a director would have my raid team spend resources at new fresh raids of varying difficulty levels and in addition making raids more accessible across the boards. Cause I do think for some interested players raids seem inaccessible and unrewarding in their minds, which is a shame. Increasing rewards for both reaching further phases as well as repeatingly killing a boss while also removing the linking of LI’s could be a step in the right direction. Even stuff like adding in game meters to provide you with information and room for improvement and your contribution to the health removed of a boss could be huge.

If accessibility is a true issue, which personally as somebody that Pugged all 3 wings in 2 days with about 2 hours played each for the last 2 weeks, not having to link LI and gear even once I highly doubt. The real solution would focussing on both the accessibility and perception of raids.

DutchRiders.2871:

Blaeys.3102:

Nozome.7853:

Raids should remain with one mode. The percentage of players wanting a harder mode is really low , and having an easier mode makes no sense. How much easier should they be? VG was killed by 4 people!!!

The fact that VG was killed with 4 people only illustrates that there are players out there with tremendous skill and the desire to microanalyze everything needed to do this kind of thing. It does not, in any way, speak to the accessibility of the fight. Every raiding MMO out there sees groups like this doing amazing (borderline crazy) things like this. There will always be a tiny group of players looking to develop speed run or limited number metas to do things like this.

In fact, it creates even more need for multiple difficulties. As these small groups get better and better at raids, the gap between PVE players will widen way more than we see now. As Anet works harder and harder to challenge these small groups, more and more people would be left behind with a single difficulty level. There will be greater need for challenge motes, tiered difficulty levels and a deeper pool of potential players raiding.

That will dictate the implementation of core systems designed to address this. What they DESPARATELY need to do is accept that and implement tiered or variable difficulties now – to retain the number of active raiders and warrant continued development on raids.

The fact that people since the launch of raids are clearing them more effectively, including high end players that 4 man VG and suboptimal PuG groups with 2 minutes left on the clock means there is alot of room for error in the current raids. It clearly shows it’s not that difficult and people are apperantly adapting to the raids by playing them.

Mikei the Mighty did an interview with a quantify member that felt like the current raid difficulty is perfectly fine, and he believed his guildies felt the same way. The reason being it gives his guild a nice challenge for casual runs and also the option to experience a different challenge when low manning.

As for using easy mode as a way to train, pretty similar to fractals. I will reply by saying I experienced the low lv fractals as a necessary evil being the clown fiesta they are, not requiring me to learn anything about the encounter and in no way were they a true preparation for the high lv fractals.

I fear valuable resources allocated to training raids would result in a suboptimal training experience that is in no way effective for learning encounters and does not increase the accessibility of the real raids.

I rather as a director would have my raid team spend resources at new fresh raids of varying difficulty levels and in addition making raids more accessible across the boards. Cause I do think for some interested players raids seem inaccessible and unrewarding in their minds, which is a shame. Increasing rewards for both reaching further phases as well as repeatingly killing a boss while also removing the linking of LI’s could be a step in the right direction. Even stuff like adding in game meters to provide you with information and room for improvement and your contribution to the health removed of a boss could be huge.

If accessibility is a true issue, which personally as somebody that Pugged all 3 wings in 2 days with about 2 hours played each for the last 2 weeks, not having to link LI and gear even once I highly doubt. The real solution would focussing on both the accessibility and perception of raids.

I completely Disagree with the accessibility. I consider my self very much an above average player. I find it hard to find a guild given the tools we have to raid with. I might not be clue’d into all the ways to get into a raid. That being said i want to raid. I have yet to attack a single raid boss. That alone tells you that Raids are not accessible. It means that Unless you have a guild of active members you wont be doing raids. Maybe i am an outlier… Either way i know i want to raid but do not have the means to raid. Keep in mind this is not about difficulty. I would prefer the content scale to the # of people being brought to the encounter. This is only about accessibility.

Gomba.2801:

That being said i want to raid. I have yet to attack a single raid boss. That alone tells you that Raids are not accessible.

That just tells me that you haven’t quite discovered how to find people yet. I personally only have roughly 20 LI’s (College life OP), but I don’t have trouble finding people. It helps to know the format for posting in LFG, and also remember to check the group finder every so often. The longest it ever took me to find a group was half an hour. But most of the time I can get one going in less than ten minutes.

TexZero.7910:

Allison The Strange.4519:

TL;dr – We need something to bridge the difficulty gap between average gameplay & raids. Tiers are the best option I’ve seen to date.

You already have something to bridge the gap, ironically you mentioned it in you post.

Dungeons -> Fractals -> Raid.

You can thank me later.

Dungeons = AA & win
Fractals = Get ascended gear w/ infusions, AA & win
Raids = Player demanded ascended gear, know the mechanics, know your damage rotations, know how to use your skills properly, & win…

Fractals are cheese mode that typically require no more than 1 spam along with one to two abilities. Once you get into the T3 or T4 range you might have to learn how reflects work & stacking in a corner for 1 spam cleave… So hard…

Allison The Strange.4519:

TexZero.7910:

Allison The Strange.4519:

TL;dr – We need something to bridge the difficulty gap between average gameplay & raids. Tiers are the best option I’ve seen to date.

You already have something to bridge the gap, ironically you mentioned it in you post.

Dungeons -> Fractals -> Raid.

You can thank me later.

Dungeons = AA & win
Fractals = Get ascended gear w/ infusions, AA & win
Raids = Player demanded ascended gear, know the mechanics, know your damage rotations, know how to use your skills properly, & win…

Fractals are cheese mode that typically require no more than 1 spam along with one to two abilities. Once you get into the T3 or T4 range you might have to learn how reflects work & stacking in a corner for 1 spam cleave… So hard…

Oh i can play this game too

Raids are so hard, you have to actually learn how to walk to a boss, walk to a part of a floor, jump, auto attack, repeat! It’s so Hard, however did those exploiting players come before and do it!

You had to put in the time and energy to learn dungeons, or read a guide/have someone teach you in most cases(unless you played at launch and helped develop the strategies used) same can be said of both Fractals, and Raids. Perhaps you should go play the content and learn the encounters like everyone else before you had to do.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

curtegg.5216:

The problem with raids is the fact developers still deploy the same simplistic functionality of stacking mechanics under a time-gate. Instead the developers should have not only raids, but world bosses consider the composition of the group of players engaging them and have different tactics deployed by the bosses. Rewards, I agree, should be tiered in which the faster a group progresses through the better the loot. Why? Because once the players learn the bosses they become rote? If bosses had completely different tactics in the fight dependent on the composition of players the fights would stay fresh and unique and be harder to learn. Right now it is just a simple dps race.

Not only this is a huge amount of work, but it also gonna completely remove any class/build diversity we have left.

Actually that would make class/build diversity expand. Imagine how NPCs react differently to a healer than a warrior or the mood your PC expresses. GW2 glossed over it with the story, but imagine if the emotion your PC expresses impacts not only your fate, your combat, but how NPCs you interface with react. After 20 years a little AI is much needed in MMOs rather than primitive algorithmic approaches (even a state transition network is pretty easy to implement). AI is not hard (it’s been around for 40 years). Testing this new methodology is not hard. Monte-carlo techniques have been around for awhile making testing and QA better. I just wish techniques being deployed now in robotics, spacecraft, even factory floors would be looked at for gameplay.

Astralporing.1957:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In other words, this demonstrates that the game already offers multiple challenge levels for raids (4-person, non-ascended, less-than-exotic, etc).

Yes, but only up from the base difficulty level.

Yes, that’s the point of raids: to be challenging content.
(Disclaimer: I have yet to clear a raid wing; I still don’t want easier raids.)

Allison The Strange.4519:

Anyone who says tiers is a bad thing needs to find the door and get out.

This is usually not a strong strategy when it comes to convincing people to read the rest of your post.

if you dont want to play the challenging endgame content of this game
dont play it

if you want the rewards of the challenging content but do not want to spend time into it, its like: “i really want to earn money with playing piano, can someone teach me without me having to learn it?”

sorry if this sounds rude, i dont want it to be…
but when i see all those egoistic comments of people that can’t accept that there is content in the game for players that want to play challenging multiplayer content, that maybe even requires joining a GUILD in a game called GUILD Wars in order to succeed, i just head-desk.

i love playing with new players and i also love playing with players that are simply not good even after playing a long time, because i like playing with cool people, no matter if they are playing good or not.

but even those are able to beat raids when they try it. however, usually they stop trying it after 1-2 evenings and leave it for weeks before they try it again, simply because they dont want to try. they also dont want to train. they want to succeed.

but the “not so good people” i like to play with do not write long posts on the forums and want arenanet to change it, simply because THEY dont want to play it. because they know I love raids like they are, and many others love raids like they are.

tiers would destroy the thrill of the raids, because its supposed to be hard content for players that like hard content, with rewards that are earned by beating a hard challenge.

arenanet did a awesome job on guildwars 2. i do not say that i like every part of the game, but there are players that maybe love what i dont like. and if i want the rewards of that part, i have to play that part.

all you have to do: get over it – you are not alone in guildwars 2

no matter how your point of view on my point of view is, have a nice day

Barath.4305:

if you want the rewards of the challenging content but do not want to spend time into it, its like: “i really want to earn money with playing piano, can someone teach me without me having to learn it?”

No, it’s not. Playing piano is not the only way to earn money.

Barath.4305:

but when i see all those egoistic comments of people that can’t accept that there is content in the game for players that want to play challenging multiplayer content, that maybe even requires joining a GUILD in a game called GUILD Wars in order to succeed, i just head-desk.

First, don’t invoke the game’s name if you don;t know the meaning behind it (and if you do invoke it, don’t do it selectively – there are no wars in Raids). Second, people are accepting that there is a challenging multiplayer content. They just want some version of it that is less challenging so they will be able to play it. Don’t you think that speaking against introducing said version is way more egoistic?

Barath.4305:

but even those are able to beat raids when they try it. however, usually they stop trying it after 1-2 evenings and leave it for weeks before they try it again, simply because they dont want to try. they also dont want to train.

Maybe because it isn’t fun for them. Not everyone treat this game as if it were some Serious Business, or seek self-validation in doing things that, in the end, have no importance in the grand scheme of things. Some just want to unwind after a day’s work.
And that approach is just as valid as yours.

Astralporing.1957

No, it’s not. Playing piano is not the only way to earn money.

i guess i should have written a piano-price. because you get raid-rewards from raids not only money.

Astralporing.1957

First, don’t invoke the game’s name if you don;t know the meaning behind it

i played ~15.000 hours gw1, its not only about wars between guilds, its also about wars with your guild. a fight against the vale guardian is also a war. its a war against the white mantle…

Astralporing.1957

They just want some version of it that is less challenging so they will be able to play it

everyone is able to play it, however the question is if you will make it or not. if you dont train you wont make it, lets come to the analogy with the piano again, if you dont learn playing piano you wont get the piano price

Astralporing.1957

Maybe because it isn’t fun for them. Not everyone treat this game as if it were some Serious Business, or seek self-validation in doing things that, in the end, have no importance in the grand scheme of things. Some just want to unwind after a day’s work.
And that approach is just as valid as yours.

you did not read what i wrote. i said that i understand them, that i like playing with them, i got reallife friends i often play with that do not spend as much time into the game as i do, so i’m aware of the fact that not everyone wants a challenge ingame.

and thats cool, i did nowhere say you have to like it. but as i wrote, if you dont like it, dont play it^^
no one forces you to play raids.
if you dont want to play raids, you wont get the price for it.
if i dont want to spend many many hours into some collection, i wont get the price for it either.

Barath.4305:

and thats cool, i did nowhere say you have to like it. but as i wrote, if you dont like it, dont play it^^
no one forces you to play raids.
if you dont want to play raids, you wont get the price for it.
if i dont want to spend many many hours into some collection, i wont get the price for it either.

That’s just, weak and lazy reasoning.

‘You don’t have to play GW2. No one forces you to play it.’ – Automatic dismissal for every issue anyone can raise with this game, ever.

Consider for a moment that because you are happy and content with the state of things does not mean that there is no room for improvement.

Jahroots.6791

That’s just, weak and lazy reasoning.

‘You don’t have to play GW2. No one forces you to play it.’ – Automatic dismissal for every issue anyone can raise with this game, ever.

Consider for a moment that because you are happy and content with the state of things does not mean that there is no room for improvement.

i am happy, because its a game.
even though, i would do many things different, for example i would try to focus on giving the players content they can re-play for years, that does not get boring with the time (like underworld or doa in guildwars 1). raids come quite close to that.

but that does not give me a free-ticket to grant and shout on everything they do and that they should re-build the content other people like to content me and my friends like, because they create the game not only for me.
they create it for many players, so they create much different content.

but you act like “i dont like that part of the content, change it, i paid for this game!”
thats just unbelievable egoistic… not only you paid for it
raids were created for the part of the community that likes hard+challenging content
living story is for those that like story
open world content is for those that like exploring

maybe my reasoning is weak and lazy as you say
your reasoning is just egoistic…
while i see that other players do not like raids, you can’t see that other players maybe do not like what you like…

its a game that got many different aspects, why should everything be the same casual-stuff?
it can be versatile, so everyone gets a piece of the pizza.
the one likes spinach, the other one tuna. why would you order a complete spinach pizza?

however, have a nice day

Barath.4305:

i am happy, because its a game.
even though, i would do many things different, for example i would try to focus on giving the players content they can re-play for years, that does not get boring with the time (like underworld or doa in guildwars 1). raids come quite close to that.

but that does not give me a free-ticket to grant and shout on everything they do and that they should re-build the content other people like to content me and my friends like, because they create the game not only for me.
they create it for many players, so they create much different content.

but you act like “i dont like that part of the content, change it, i paid for this game!”
thats just unbelievable egoistic… not only you paid for it
raids were created for the part of the community that likes hard+challenging content
living story is for those that like story
open world content is for those that like exploring

maybe my reasoning is weak and lazy as you say
your reasoning is just egoistic…
while i see that other players do not like raids, you can’t see that other players maybe do not like what you like…

its a game that got many different aspects, why should everything be the same casual-stuff?
it can be versatile, so everyone gets a piece of the pizza.
the one likes spinach, the other one tuna. why would you order a complete spinach pizza?

however, have a nice day

I think you misunderstand the point of this topic. People are not suggesting that raids should be nerfed completely, they are asking for a separate and distinct version of the current raids that is more accessible. The current raid difficulty would remain, unchanged, for those who prefer it. They do not want to take your pizza away from you, they want a second one made with different toppings. This is not a selfish request.

Also, don’t think of the state of the game as being inherently ‘good’ or ‘right’. An MMO should be dynamic and fluid, adapted to the players’ needs. If enough people voice a concern (and we are all entitled to do this) Anet is likely to take notice and at least consider ways of addressing it. Quite a few changes have been made as a result of player feedback, and the game would likely have suffered overall if people simply kept quiet and hoped for things to change.

Jahroots.6791

I think you misunderstand the point of this topic. People are not suggesting that raids should be nerfed completely, they are asking for a separate and distinct version of the current raids that is more accessible. The current raid difficulty would remain, unchanged, for those who prefer it. They do not want to take your pizza away from you, they want a second one made with different toppings. This is not a selfish request.

i did not misunderstand the point of the topic!
i know that people want different raid difficulties.

but i like that it is hard to beat, and i know many others that also like what it needs to beat raids.

with different difficulties, sure it would be still fun and challenging, but the thrill of beating it would be gone (not completely ofc, but a little bit) because you know others that put way less effort into it can simply put it to easy mode and do it too.

Also, don’t think of the state of the game as being inherently ‘good’ or ‘right’. An MMO should be dynamic and fluid, adapted to the players’ needs. If enough people voice a concern (and we are all entitled to do this) Anet is likely to take notice and at least consider ways of addressing it. Quite a few changes have been made as a result of player feedback, and the game would likely have suffered overall if people simply kept quiet and hoped for things to change.

yes!! thats why they implemented raids, because players asked for challenging content!

i would like it if people would ask for easier NEW raids, that are seperated from the current raids!

dont think i would not grant it to everyone to beat the current raids! i would grant it to everyone! but only if they put effort into it and do it the hard way

i like it that there is content where you can’t simple put on the “easy mode”
that you have to do it the hard way in order to succeed!

i understand that you want current raids with a easy mode, so everyone could beat them on the first or second try. but from my point of view, content like that exists over and over.

but i hope you understand my points too now, i wrote them often enough, in every expression i could imagine

Yes, I do understand you perfectly.

Except your argument against easy mode is invalid. People are selling raids. Starts at around 100g per boss. 300g for the titles. No participation required. You can ‘beat’ a raid by opening up your wallet.

It really just sounds like you like that raids are a bit exclusive.

That would be fine if the game was not sorely lacking in new content. Let’s imagine that HoT was launched with one complete dungeon and three regular fractals plus a boss, with promises of new ones being added every few months or so (as they have done with raids) – in this scenario no one would have a cause for complaint because there would be content suited for all skill levels. However, we got hard mode only. This is inadequate, and of course people are going to take issue with it.

well, that are some good points!
i guess the best option is to wait and see what comes with the future, im sure there will come more content for everyone sooner or later^^

Jahroots.6791

It really just sounds like you like that raids are a bit exclusive.

only point i struggle with. i can’t like that, because its not the case! raids are not exclusive. everyone >without exception< could play raids. exclusive, or as many here call it “gated” content would be something that is exclusive for some players.
but everyone can start a squad and enter the raid, search a guild, group, whatever.
no one is excluded. everyone got the same chances.

ill take myself back now since i wrote some text-walls, i just wanted to bring another point of view into the discussion (i usually rarely post^^)

so far, have fun guys!

Jahroots.6791:

Barath.4305:

i am happy, because its a game.
even though, i would do many things different, for example i would try to focus on giving the players content they can re-play for years, that does not get boring with the time (like underworld or doa in guildwars 1). raids come quite close to that.

but that does not give me a free-ticket to grant and shout on everything they do and that they should re-build the content other people like to content me and my friends like, because they create the game not only for me.
they create it for many players, so they create much different content.

but you act like “i dont like that part of the content, change it, i paid for this game!”
thats just unbelievable egoistic… not only you paid for it
raids were created for the part of the community that likes hard+challenging content
living story is for those that like story
open world content is for those that like exploring

maybe my reasoning is weak and lazy as you say
your reasoning is just egoistic…
while i see that other players do not like raids, you can’t see that other players maybe do not like what you like…

its a game that got many different aspects, why should everything be the same casual-stuff?
it can be versatile, so everyone gets a piece of the pizza.
the one likes spinach, the other one tuna. why would you order a complete spinach pizza?

however, have a nice day

I think you misunderstand the point of this topic. People are not suggesting that raids should be nerfed completely, they are asking for a separate and distinct version of the current raids that is more accessible. The current raid difficulty would remain, unchanged, for those who prefer it. They do not want to take your pizza away from you, they want a second one made with different toppings. This is not a selfish request.

Also, don’t think of the state of the game as being inherently ‘good’ or ‘right’. An MMO should be dynamic and fluid, adapted to the players’ needs. If enough people voice a concern (and we are all entitled to do this) Anet is likely to take notice and at least consider ways of addressing it. Quite a few changes have been made as a result of player feedback, and the game would likely have suffered overall if people simply kept quiet and hoped for things to change.

Why do these people need raids? Wouldn’t a new living story chapter or fractal also sate your desire for easier content?

New content also has the benefit that players from both camps have the opportunity to enjoy it. Unlike repeated content.

Ohoni.6057:
Plenty of other games offer PvP combat and also PvP “bot” variation on that combat, even Overwatch. Star Wars Battlefront recently announced that they are adding a bot mode to the game. It might actually be a good idea here, but it’s really a discussion for another time and place.

Those games aren’t MMORPGs and don’t have a PvE part. Very bad comparison.

The point is though, they are online PvP games that also offer PvE variations of their PvP gameplay using bots. Personally, I would not be terribly interested in a bot-based Conquest mode, but it would have its uses (training basic skills in a more predictable environment), and some people might enjoy it, so if there were demand for it, I would see no reason why they shouldn’t add it.

The problem is, you try to conflate “things they haven’t done” with “things they shouldn’t do,” which is not necessarily true. Just because they haven’t done something in the past doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be a good idea, or just because they have done something before doesn’t mean it was a good idea.

It’s also used to lure people into specific content. Content specific rewards are needed to populate content. This applies to all content.

Again, we’ve already been over this point. Rewards as a lure is fine, but like a lure, it should be meant to get players on the hook, not to keep them there. Rewards as a lure should be short term, designed to get players through the door and make them try content that they might not otherwise, but then after they’ve tried it, it needs to let them go. The content itself should be the hook that keeps them there. Players should love that new content enough that they want to keep playing it, and if they do not, then they should be free to leave. Of course there should also be long term goals, but these should be more flexible in how you go about achieving them.

Content specific rewards are needed to populate content. More difficulties of the same content make it worse. Then you also need specific rewards for the difficulty scales.

No, you don’t need different rewards for each difficulty level. you offer the same rewards, in different quantities, and let players choose for themselves which difficulty mode they enjoy pursuing. If you have a “lure” reward, you place it in the mode designed for the average player. Easy mode would not need a lure reward, since players would attempt normal, and if it was too hard, drop to easy. Hard would also not need a lure reward, if players enjoy normal mode, but find it “too easy,” then that would be the lure to move up to hard mode, nothing more is needed.

Where do I get Wild Abandon if I don’t have a warrior? Where do I get the Luminescent Armor if I don’t like Silverwastes?
There are skins far worse gated than the raid armor and we all know it’s about the purple color and not the skin.

Again, could not care less about the purple color, I had a few characters running around with bits of Rare armor on until fairly recently, that’s all just stats. It’s 100% about the skin. And yes, there are other stats that could benefit from having more options available for earning them, and I’d back you 100% on that, but they aren’t the skins I’m interested in at the moment, so they aren’t the ones I’m personally invested in discussing.

Except you are the minority and not the target audience for raids, so at the end of the day why should we care?

I don’t believe I am the minority, and the target audience for raids is only a tiny fragment of the overall game population, and that overall game population is more important than that tiny fragment, so at the end of the day why should we care what they think? I want raiders to be happy, but not at the expense of everyone else.

I know right you do not really change you’re mind, again why are you posting in forums? Quite the stubborn fellow. However keep the thought of not succeeding at raids in mind for when we talk about the training raids!

I do, which is why I not longer participate in them, because “training raid” is apparently synonymous with “wasting several hours and still not killing the boss, which I was perfectly capable of doing when I started.”

Dungeons originally were meant to be difficult. They turned out easy and as a result arenanet had to abandon them. And here you are arguing for easy mode raids.

They didn’t abandon dungeons because they were “too easy,” they abandoned them because they were too difficult to update and not enough people played them to justify the effort, and the same will eventually happen to raids. Less people are raiding today than were dungeoning at launch, and less people will be playing Forsaken Thicket in three years than are playing Honor of the Waves today, that’s just how games work. It’s all about the next big thing.

You cannot brag with something nobody wants or with something that everybody already has my friend.

Of course you can. The first part, at least. I mean, take an Olypmic bronze medal. The gold medal obviously has some intrinsic value, but a bronze medal is probably only worth like $4 if melted down for scrap. It’s practically worthless. Yet at the same time, a lot of people are plenty proud to display that they won a bronze medal, which indicates that they are better at a sport than all but two other people out of several billion.

Same principle here, if they make a “prestige” item, then the item itself should have no value. If everyone did have it, then nobody would particularly care to have it. But because you can ONLY get it by doing something very hard, having it allows you to display that very difficult feat, and that is what gives it value. That is the sort of reward that challenging content should offer, things like titles that have no real importance except that they show off your accomplishments.

If they make a really cool item, something that people would want to use even if everyone had a copy, and lock that behind only very high challenge feats, then it is unfair to players who cannot complete those feats, and yet would really like that item.

If everybody would drive a ferarri, well little bragging rights would be involved.

True, but you’d also have a lot of people happy to own a Ferrari. Ferraris aren’t limited because of bragging rights, they are limited because they are hand crafted, highly tuned driving machines, and they can only manufacture a certain amount of them each year. In-game items have a theoretically infinite supply, so the same argument does not apply.

I think the logical conclusion from “a 4 person squad beats VG” is VG isn’t as difficult as we thought it was.

No. The achievements of a top-tier team of players are completely irrelevant to the average. Stories about how top tier players are able to beat a boss with all sorts of self-imposed handicaps are meaningless to the discussion. The only anecdotes of any value are of how random pugs of completely inexperienced, poorly balanced players are able to get in and beat the boss within the first hour or so. If those aren’t the stories you’re telling, then they aren’t contributing to the discussion of the need for an easier difficulty mode.

It’s not about the high skill players or what they can do.

In other words, this demonstrates that the game already offers multiple challenge levels for raids (4-person, non-ascended, less-than-exotic, etc).

And this much is true, but the feedback from at least some of the community is that the easiest currently available challenge level, the ten-man version, is not as easy as they would prefer, and they would like to have an easier option available. People looking for harder versions can, as you say, always provide their own added challenge.

Why do these people need raids? Wouldn’t a new living story chapter or fractal also sate your desire for easier content?

No. It would be one thing, I would appreciate it for what it is, but I would also want easier raids too.

New content also has the benefit that players from both camps have the opportunity to enjoy it. Unlike repeated content.

Both are better. Easier raids would take less time to develop than any new content of equivalent scope, there is no question of that, so it’s well worth producing.

@ Ohoni

I feel like your arguments would be more effective if you delivered them in a shorter format. No one likes to read pages disputing the minutiae of argument.

My position is fairly clear: Diversity of content is better than repeated content. Anet should continue to develop different content at all skill levels

I think we’re all aware that yours is: All content should be available at all skill levels, and all rewards should be achievable at all skill levels.

Disputing minutiae seems pointless.

I feel like your arguments would be more effective if you delivered them in a shorter format. No one likes to read pages disputing the minutiae of argument.

I feel like the same people who disagree with me would continue to disagree with me, since they rarely seem to read anything I write anyway. You do you though.

My position is fairly clear: Diversity of content is better than repeated content. Anet should continue to develop different content at all skill levels

And I agree with all of that, but easier versions of the raids is not mutually exclusive with more new content. They should do both.

It’s better to have all content available at a single baseline difficulty level, because that means that any player who can play any of the game can play all of the game. Yes, if there is “enough” content at the baseline difficulty level then that player will have something to do, but it may not be the thing he’s like to do, and having all content available at that difficulty level would mean that no content is barred behind a skill/time gate.

Now that doesn’t mean that there can’t also be difficult content for those that want it, but this content should also be available to everyone else, nobody should feel that they have to do the hard version if they don’t enjoy hard versions. Those that do enjoy hard versions should have it available because they enjoy hard versions. If the point of them is to have something to lord over those that can’t do them, then that is a toxic purpose, and should not be validated.

Easy mode raids will ruin raiding. Being able to see the bosses in an easy mode and then go in the normal mode will trivialize the only somewhat challenging content we have in the game.

Anyone who thinks otherwise isn’t a true raider, and shouldn’t even have a say in what raids should be. ArenaNet’s main goal with raids should be to satisfy RAIDERS, not non-raiders. You guys have literally the other 98% of the game. Let us have our 3 tiny instances.

If you’re that upset that you might miss out on a tiny bit of story that has nothing to do with the living world (that you can easily get though other means, BTW) and are willing to suffocate the enjoyment of an entire sub-community just to see it, you might want to get outside and rethink your priorities.

Easy mode raids will ruin raiding. Being able to see the bosses in an easy mode and then go in the normal mode will trivialize the only somewhat challenging content we have in the game.

Nope.

People who want to do the harder mode always can, it won’t trivialize anything.

Ohoni.6057:

Easy mode raids will ruin raiding. Being able to see the bosses in an easy mode and then go in the normal mode will trivialize the only somewhat challenging content we have in the game.

Nope.

People who want to do the harder mode always can, it won’t trivialize anything.

You really don’t understand how raid progression works, do you?

Absurdo.8309:

Why do these people need raids? Wouldn’t a new living story chapter or fractal also sate your desire for easier content?

Ideally, raids should stay hard. I am actually in agreement with you guys because the challenge really does add to the value of that content. Fractals and dungeons would provided instanced PvE for those of intermediate skill and casual players.

However, the latter two content types have been neglected in favour of raids (The single upcoming fractal is completely inadequate. It has been two years since the last set.) Until such a time as Anet can produce new content for all of the PvE group instances, people will clamour for a scaled-down version of raids.

Living story doesn’t factor in at all because an entire season is only about 10 – 20 hours total playtime, including achievement hunting. After that there is absolutely no reason to replay an episode. Raids, fractals and dungeons are relevant for much, much longer.

You really don’t understand how raid progression works, do you?

Sure, you grind attunement, kill a raid boss dozens of times until you all have the right gear, then grind the next boss dozens of times until you all have the right gear, and so on. But GW2 doesn’t have progression raiding so it’s a moot point here.

Ohoni.6057:

You really don’t understand how raid progression works, do you?

Sure, you grind attunement, kill a raid boss dozens of times until you all have the right gear, then grind the next boss dozens of times until you all have the right gear, and so on. But GW2 doesn’t have progression raiding so it’s a moot point here.

No but GW2 being a themepark MMO is entirely relevant. In order to attract people who otherwise wouldn’t be interested, they have to change some elements of what you perceive as traditional gameplay. That means challenge and rewards had to be harder, and unique respectively. Any change to that structure whatsoever, threatens not only the integrity of design, but the intention of having such content to begin with.

This is why its a bad idea. Something you actively refuse to acknowledge in your selfish quest to get legendary armor without putting in the same effort others do.

No but GW2 being a themepark MMO is entirely relevant. In order to attract people who otherwise wouldn’t be interested, they have to change some elements of what you perceive as traditional gameplay. That means challenge and rewards had to be harder, and unique respectively. Any change to that structure whatsoever, threatens not only the integrity of design, but the intention of having such content to begin with.

All that’s being left in, this is a second, alternate version, which you don’t have to participate in if it doesn’t appeal to you.

Ohoni.6057:

No but GW2 being a themepark MMO is entirely relevant. In order to attract people who otherwise wouldn’t be interested, they have to change some elements of what you perceive as traditional gameplay. That means challenge and rewards had to be harder, and unique respectively. Any change to that structure whatsoever, threatens not only the integrity of design, but the intention of having such content to begin with.

All that’s being left in, this is a second, alternate version, which you don’t have to participate in if it doesn’t appeal to you.

Missing the point for the sake of being stubborn i see.

An alternate version leaves no purpose of going to the main attraction.

TexZero.7910:

No but GW2 being a themepark MMO is entirely relevant. In order to attract people who otherwise wouldn’t be interested, they have to change some elements of what you perceive as traditional gameplay. That means challenge and rewards had to be harder, and unique respectively. Any change to that structure whatsoever, threatens not only the integrity of design, but the intention of having such content to begin with.

Do you think that if there were easier raids, with lower shard rewards and few/none of the unique drops, people would suddenly stop enjoying standard raids? If the community is that fickle I do not think they deserve this content at all.

Jahroots.6791:

TexZero.7910:

No but GW2 being a themepark MMO is entirely relevant. In order to attract people who otherwise wouldn’t be interested, they have to change some elements of what you perceive as traditional gameplay. That means challenge and rewards had to be harder, and unique respectively. Any change to that structure whatsoever, threatens not only the integrity of design, but the intention of having such content to begin with.

Do you think that if there were easier raids, with lower shard rewards and few/none of the unique drops, people would suddenly stop enjoying standard raids? If the community is that fickle I do not think they deserve this content at all.

Let me answer your question with a realistic scenario as it relates to GW2.

How often do you do story dungeons on a weekly basis ?
How often do you do fractals, not t4 or the daily suggested ?

The answer in short is yes, it does cause that to occur. Once you’ve run the easy mode once you very seldom if ever go back to it which causes it to become dead content.

TexZero.7910:

Let me answer your question with a realistic scenario as it relates to GW2.

How often do you do story dungeons on a weekly basis ?
How often do you do fractals, not t4 or the daily suggested ?

The answer in short is yes, it does cause that to occur. Once you’ve run the easy mode once you very seldom if ever go back to it which causes it to become dead content.

It’s only dead to me since I am an experienced player. There are always people running story dungeons and low tier fractals, though.

I don’t repeat content for challenge, I repeat it for rewards. The difficulty does not really matter. Most players are like this as well. If easy mode raids were designed to be as unrewarding as story dungeons, then yes, they would be pointless. No one would run them. If the reward scale was in line with T2 fractals or so, then many people would happily play (and remain at) that level.

And none of that would affect serious raiding at all.

Case in point: I do the T4 dailies every day. I don’t spare a thought for the other levels. I I don’t run them, I don’t even check their listings. This would be you too, if they introduced lower difficulty raids.

Ohoni.6057:

I feel like your arguments would be more effective if you delivered them in a shorter format. No one likes to read pages disputing the minutiae of argument.

I feel like the same people who disagree with me would continue to disagree with me, since they rarely seem to read anything I write anyway. You do you though.

My position is fairly clear: Diversity of content is better than repeated content. Anet should continue to develop different content at all skill levels

And I agree with all of that, but easier versions of the raids is not mutually exclusive with more new content. They should do both.

It’s better to have all content available at a single baseline difficulty level, because that means that any player who can play any of the game can play all of the game. Yes, if there is “enough” content at the baseline difficulty level then that player will have something to do, but it may not be the thing he’s like to do, and having all content available at that difficulty level would mean that no content is barred behind a skill/time gate.

Now that doesn’t mean that there can’t also be difficult content for those that want it, but this content should also be available to everyone else, nobody should feel that they have to do the hard version if they don’t enjoy hard versions. Those that do enjoy hard versions should have it available because they enjoy hard versions. If the point of them is to have something to lord over those that can’t do them, then that is a toxic purpose, and should not be validated.

It’s fair to hold the view that no content should be behind a skill/time time gate. And that all content should be at an easy difficulty level.

That’s just not guild wars 2.

There’s never been a single difficulty level across all content. Orr open world is harder than starter open world. Dungeons are harder than open world. Some dungeons (arah, aetherpath) are harder than others. Some fractals are harder than dungeons. Raids are harder than fractals.

Other things are locked behind time gates. A wvw player with ascended gear and all tracks unlocked will out-perform a level 5 player in wvw, even if that level 5 is a veteran on an alternate account. Legendaries take months or years to get. Ascended gear is locked behind a time-gate. The pvp legendary is locked behind a time and skill gate.

Heck, even fractals, which seems to be exactly what you want with raids, is locked behind a time gate. The higher level fractals require ascended gear. Even if you were the most skilled player in the world, you would just die to agony (unlike raids, I’ll point out). And higher level fractals have certain rewards and skins locked behind them.

It’s admirable that you’re so consistent in your views. They just don’t align with guild wars 2, and they never have.

Jahroots.6791:

TexZero.7910:

Let me answer your question with a realistic scenario as it relates to GW2.

How often do you do story dungeons on a weekly basis ?
How often do you do fractals, not t4 or the daily suggested ?

The answer in short is yes, it does cause that to occur. Once you’ve run the easy mode once you very seldom if ever go back to it which causes it to become dead content.

It’s only dead to me since I am an experienced player. There are always people running story dungeons and low tier fractals, though.

I don’t repeat content for challenge, I repeat it for rewards. The difficulty does not really matter. Most players are like this as well. If easy mode raids were designed to be as unrewarding as story dungeons, then yes, they would be pointless. No one would run them. If the reward scale was in line with T2 fractals or so, then many people would happily play (and remain at) that level.

And none of that would affect serious raiding at all.

Case in point: I do the T4 dailies every day. I don’t spare a thought for the other levels. I I don’t run them, I don’t even check their listings. This would be you too, if they introduced lower difficulty raids.

I would rather not have developer resources wasted on content that’s easily thrown aside.

Story modes show why it’s bad to have low difficulty content with low rewards. People only run them once. That would be a problem with easy mode raids.

Or, if the rewards weren’t too low: (1) no one would consistently run the lower tier, as they would move on to the normal level as soon as they were able (think infantile mode SAB or T2 fractals); or (2) people would only run the easy mode, if it was more time-efficient to get rewards that way (think COF p1 compared to p3).

It’s just a lose-lose. I’d rather new content to play around with, than easy-mode raids with no staying power.

EDIT: you do need easy content for new players, but we have plenty of that

An alternate version leaves no purpose of going to the main attraction.

If you like challenge, you have a reason to go to the existing version.

If you are capable of passing the challenge, and want the fastest way to get rewards, you have reason to go to the existing version.

If you don’t enjoy challenge, then you should have no reason to go to the existing version.

Ever.

Let me answer your question with a realistic scenario as it relates to GW2.

How often do you do story dungeons on a weekly basis ?
How often do you do fractals, not t4 or the daily suggested ?

You’re sort of making an argument counter to your stated position. People don’t do story dungeons because they don’t have any loot. The hard mode versions would remain the most efficient version for loot, so loot chasers would have every reason to keep doing them.

If you’re trying to make a comparison between Dungeons and Raids here, then just using story and paths as they are is a broken one. Instead think of it like this, you currently get around 100 tokens for each explorable path completion, and most players are perfectly able to complete the existing paths. They would be the easy mode standard. But let’s say they added a hard mode, one that existing groups could not complete, one tuned to require equivalent skill, gearing, and dedication to raid encounters. This mode would give out 300 tokens per completion, and they would add fancy weapons and armor that would cost 3000+ tokens each.

In this scenario, you would still have people that preferred the existing easy mode, felt it offered a fair reward for their time and effort, and would grind away towards those new rewards. But you’d also have players that enjoy challenge, would appreciate the content itself of a hard mode version, and would feel that the increased (but not unique) rewards of the harder version was well worth their time.

If they needed something to show off, they would not only be able to earn the fancy new gear months ahead of the easy mode players, having plenty of time to show it off before the Next-Big-Thing arrived in fashionwars, but they could also earn a unique title for each dungeon, like “Citadel Demolisher” or something.

If even in that scenario nobody would be doing the hard mode, then it’s clearly not worth even attempting to put challenging content in the game because nobody actually wants it.

[edit]

There’s never been a single difficulty level across all content. Orr open world is harder than starter open world. Dungeons are harder than open world. Some dungeons (arah, aetherpath) are harder than others. Some fractals are harder than dungeons. Raids are harder than fractals.

Press this argument all you like, but there has been a fairly consistent level of difficulty for most GW2 content, obviously with a little variation, and everyone, including yourself in other arguments, agrees that raids are significantly outside this range. The argument is not whether or not this is a fact, the argument is whether or not you like that this is a fact. You do, I do not.

I would rather not have developer resources wasted on content that’s easily thrown aside.

So no more raiding then? A bold stance to take around these parts. Even I’m more on the side of making raids more accessible to the average player rather than scrapping the system entirely.

Or, if the rewards weren’t too low: (1) no one would consistently run the lower tier, as they would move on to the normal level as soon as they were able (think infantile mode SAB or T2 fractals);

But that assumes that they’re willing and able to “move up” to the higher tier and all that it requires. You compare an easy mode to Infantile SAB, which is an inaccurate comparison. Instead consider it more like NORMAL mode SAB, with the existing Raids being Tribulation mode. Similar audience are drawn to the two modes, like Wooden Potatoes.

I assume your position is that everyone can and should eventually be doing hard mode raids, and that easy mode would just be a pointless stopgap. My position is that the existing raids are not for everyone, and that this is a good thing, so long as nobody gets left out by having no alternative to it. Leave the existing raids for the people that enjoy that sort of thing, provide a complete alternative for those that do not, and never will.

(2) people would only run the easy mode, if it was more time-efficient to get rewards that way (think COF p1 compared to p3).

But the thing is, P3 offered the same rewards as P1, for much more effort, so of course people only run the easier one. If P3 offered significantly higher rewards, then anyone who could do it, would, while players that didn’t want to mess with that, would still have the alternative of path 1.

Ohoni.6057:

An alternate version leaves no purpose of going to the main attraction.

If you like challenge, you have a reason to go to the existing version.

If you are capable of passing the challenge, and want the fastest way to get rewards, you have reason to go to the existing version.

If you don’t enjoy challenge, then you should have no reason to go to the existing version.

Ever.

Let me answer your question with a realistic scenario as it relates to GW2.

How often do you do story dungeons on a weekly basis ?
How often do you do fractals, not t4 or the daily suggested ?

You’re sort of making an argument counter to your stated position. People don’t do story dungeons because they don’t have any loot. The hard mode versions would remain the most efficient version for loot, so loot chasers would have every reason to keep doing them.

If you’re trying to make a comparison between Dungeons and Raids here, then just using story and paths as they are is a broken one. Instead think of it like this, you currently get around 100 tokens for each explorable path completion, and most players are perfectly able to complete the existing paths. They would be the easy mode standard. But let’s say they added a hard mode, one that existing groups could not complete, one tuned to require equivalent skill, gearing, and dedication to raid encounters. This mode would give out 300 tokens per completion, and they would add fancy weapons and armor that would cost 3000+ tokens each.

In this scenario, you would still have people that preferred the existing easy mode, felt it offered a fair reward for their time and effort, and would grind away towards those new rewards. But you’d also have players that enjoy challenge, would appreciate the content itself of a hard mode version, and would feel that the increased (but not unique) rewards of the harder version was well worth their time.

If they needed something to show off, they would not only be able to earn the fancy new gear months ahead of the easy mode players, having plenty of time to show it off before the Next-Big-Thing arrived in fashionwars, but they could also earn a unique title for each dungeon, like “Citadel Demolisher” or something.

If even in that scenario nobody would be doing the hard mode, then it’s clearly not worth even attempting to put challenging content in the game because nobody actually wants it.

The argument is that no one repeats the story-mode dungeons because the rewards are way too low. As they probably would be for easy mode raids.

Even if the rewards are balanced, like fractals, then no one would repeat the easy mode once they’re able to do the normal one. Again, wasted content.

And if the rewards were over-tuned towards easy-mode raids, then no one do the normal mode. Like COF p3.

Just a lose-lose-lose

Absurdo.8309:

Ohoni.6057:

An alternate version leaves no purpose of going to the main attraction.

If you like challenge, you have a reason to go to the existing version.

If you are capable of passing the challenge, and want the fastest way to get rewards, you have reason to go to the existing version.

If you don’t enjoy challenge, then you should have no reason to go to the existing version.

Ever.

Let me answer your question with a realistic scenario as it relates to GW2.

How often do you do story dungeons on a weekly basis ?
How often do you do fractals, not t4 or the daily suggested ?

You’re sort of making an argument counter to your stated position. People don’t do story dungeons because they don’t have any loot. The hard mode versions would remain the most efficient version for loot, so loot chasers would have every reason to keep doing them.

If you’re trying to make a comparison between Dungeons and Raids here, then just using story and paths as they are is a broken one. Instead think of it like this, you currently get around 100 tokens for each explorable path completion, and most players are perfectly able to complete the existing paths. They would be the easy mode standard. But let’s say they added a hard mode, one that existing groups could not complete, one tuned to require equivalent skill, gearing, and dedication to raid encounters. This mode would give out 300 tokens per completion, and they would add fancy weapons and armor that would cost 3000+ tokens each.

In this scenario, you would still have people that preferred the existing easy mode, felt it offered a fair reward for their time and effort, and would grind away towards those new rewards. But you’d also have players that enjoy challenge, would appreciate the content itself of a hard mode version, and would feel that the increased (but not unique) rewards of the harder version was well worth their time.

If they needed something to show off, they would not only be able to earn the fancy new gear months ahead of the easy mode players, having plenty of time to show it off before the Next-Big-Thing arrived in fashionwars, but they could also earn a unique title for each dungeon, like “Citadel Demolisher” or something.

If even in that scenario nobody would be doing the hard mode, then it’s clearly not worth even attempting to put challenging content in the game because nobody actually wants it.

The argument is that no one repeats the story-mode dungeons because the rewards are way too low. As they probably would be for easy mode raids.

Even if the rewards are balanced, like fractals, then no one would repeat the easy mode once they’re able to do the normal one. Again, wasted content.

And if the rewards were over-tuned towards easy-mode raids, then no one do the normal mode. Like COF p3.

Just a lose-lose-lose

This guy gets a medal, understands the exact problem with modular systems in games.

The argument is that no one repeats the story-mode dungeons because the rewards are way too low. As they probably would be for easy mode raids.

If they are too low for easy mode raids then they should be raised to be higher. They should never be too low to be worth running the content.

Easy fix.

Even if the rewards are balanced, like fractals, then no one would repeat the easy mode once they’re able to do the normal one. Again, wasted content.

Again, that assumes that all players would “graduate” to hard mode. I don’t believe this will ever be the case. I believe that there are plenty of players who fall into the category of “would enjoy easy mode raids, would NEVER enjoy hard mode raids. EVER. Like in a million years ever. Like they would play the easy mode raids on a weekly basis for years, and still not feel like doing the hard mode versions regularly. That kind of forever.”

I guarantee you, if they get it right, people would be playing easy mode raids at least as long as they continue to play the hard mode versions.

And if the rewards were over-tuned towards easy-mode raids, then no one do the normal mode. Like COF p3.

Again, not an issue. Hard mode has its own rewards. People who can complete hard mode and enjoy that sort of thing would be able to continue doing so. Basically, if you enjoy hard mode raiding, want raid style rewards, then hard mode raiding is objectively the most efficient path for you. If you don’t enjoy hard mode raiding, but still want the raid experience and rewards, then easy mode raiding is for you, hard mode being too hard, and everything else offering a different experience and rewards. If you don’t care about any of that stuff, then neither mode is for you, and that’s fine too, but at least this way all three groups have a service, currently the middle group is left out.

TexZero.7910:

No but GW2 being a themepark MMO is entirely relevant. In order to attract people who otherwise wouldn’t be interested, they have to change some elements of what you perceive as traditional gameplay. That means challenge and rewards had to be harder, and unique respectively. Any change to that structure whatsoever, threatens not only the integrity of design, but the intention of having such content to begin with.

You do realize that the very same reasoning can be applied to raids as the new content and design change done to the game that was? If, according to it, adding the easy mode raids would be wrong, then adding raids as they are now was wrong as well.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

No but GW2 being a themepark MMO is entirely relevant. In order to attract people who otherwise wouldn’t be interested, they have to change some elements of what you perceive as traditional gameplay. That means challenge and rewards had to be harder, and unique respectively. Any change to that structure whatsoever, threatens not only the integrity of design, but the intention of having such content to begin with.

You do realize that the very same reasoning can be applied to raids as the new content and design change done to the game that was? If, according to it, adding the easy mode raids would be wrong, then adding raids as they are now was wrong as well.

Untrue. The entire game before it was pretty much easy mode with little to no variance in difficulty. Would you like them to go lower ? Because that’s what your asking for when it comes to easy mode raids seeing as there are still people who cannot fathom even walking in Orr as it’s too hard.

The game needed a harder group setting, it has one. We all get that you don’t like that, but your incessant need for rewards doesn’t justify needing to create a dumber version of existing content